Ep. 304: Do NOT Buy These Cars New!

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Hey Tommy, I just want to apologize to the patrons, and we're a little bit late, and that's because I was running late because I went to the Apple Store and bought the new Ultra.

Oh, the new watch?

Yeah, we could do an unboxing right here if you're watching this, except there was a problem. So I always skipped generations, so I had the Ultra One.

But this time I wanted to go with the Ultra Three, but I wanted to do it in the black. There's like a natural titanium color, and then there's a black.

Very cool.

So I said, I want the black, I want the blue.

You want to hold it up, so?

I want the blue band, if you're watching this on Patreon, or if you're watching it on YouTube, and I want the black watch, which is right here.

I get the open, it's very satisfying. And I got to the railroad tracks, and there was a train.

So I opened up this watch, and they had given me the wrong one, and given me the natural one, which is the one I had.

Okay.

And then I'm like, oh shoot, I'm going to be late, but I bet you I can just go to the Apple Store and say, hey, give me the wrong one by accident.

Can you swap it out?

It doesn't work that way.

Yeah, a rookie mistake there, Dad.

It does not work that way, because obviously it's not so simple to return an Apple watch, because that's what you're doing.

And then a whole bunch of kerfuffle came out, and then they had to like write, they had to establish a gift card, basically.

So they had to give me a gift card, so they had to create that.

Then using the gift card, they were able to exchange the watch.

And this is after I had owned the watch for like 22 minutes.

And I have to say, Tommy, I've got a 15, and I'm kind of jonesing for the new 17.

But the thing, even with the watch that keeps me from doing that, is not the buying it, it's the setting it up.

And it's specifically the fact that like this watch has a phone number, and the way that it works is when you get the new watch,

you basically terminate the old watch contract with me, it's with Verizon.

And then you're supposed to go and set up this watch and get a new watch contract so that you have connectivity so that you can use it outside of like

having, you know, being on a Wi-Fi.

And last time I did that with my phone, when I got the 15, they were not able to switch the ESIM and turn it on.

And so I spent two hours at the Apple Store trying to get my ESIM to work, and it didn't work.

And if the ESIM doesn't work in the watch, it's no big deal, right?

You're not making phone calls on this thing, even though you could.

But if it doesn't work in the phone and outside of Wi-Fi, you have no connectivity.

And then it becomes a big deal.

And then I had to go to the Verizon store, and what ensued then was like 14 hours of just an utter train wreck,

because there were 3 million people trading in their phones.

I couldn't get an appointment for a week.

I had a phone that wasn't working.

And so that's why I'm terrified of actually swapping out phones because of what happened to me last time.

Well, the cool thing about the watches, if you can get one with the ESIM in it.

Yeah, the ultra always has ESIM.

I actually kind of like this a lot.

I didn't like this at all when I first kind of thought about watches.

But it kind of makes sense now.

So there's this big trend now against social media having access to it all the time.

Yeah.

So have you heard of these like new phones called like dumb phones?

I have.

I have heard of the new dumb phones.

So essentially what it is, it's like returning back to the 90s.

So you get a little flip phone and you can call and you can text.

And that's all you can do, right?

And then there's no way to access Instagram and Facebook and all those kind of toxic social media apps.

So people are buying these, but my argument is you're better off just getting an Apple watch if you're an Apple user.

Yes.

Because then you still have your same phone number.

You don't have a different phone number.

It's connected to your Apple account.

But you can leave your phone at home and still have your watch.

Like if there's an emergency for driving an old car and it breaks down, which just happened to me.

You can make a call on the watch, but I'm not always plugged in.

So I really do like that feature.

My problem with my Apple Watch is I have a really old one.

I have like an SE.

Yeah.

And the battery lasts about 92 seconds.

So it's a little tricky for me to kind of keep charging it all the time.

This is a little bit of a pain.

However, I do like that feature about the Apple Watch.

People will talk about that.

So there it is.

There's my new ultra.

Well, congratulations.

And how much was it?

So they gave me $255 for the ultra one.

This one was $899.

So I paid like $560 with tax for it.

The crazy one is the new the new pro iPhone 17s are.

You can get them up to like two grand, which is more than our kind of like El Dorado.

It's true.

It is more than a candle.

So you could have a Cadillac El Dorado Doni or you could have a new phone.

Well, there it is.

It's not set up.

No, it looks nice.

So, but it is on my wrist.

And hopefully I can get it set up.

Hopefully I can get the little eSIM.

I guess it's an eSIM working on this watch.

And the other reason I got this is just because of the recent you stated my battery on my old one didn't even last it anymore.

Yeah.

So this one, hopefully it's supposed to have I think 48 hours of battery time, which will be nice.

And that's really what makes me want to even trade in this phone.

It's affected by like one o'clock in the afternoon.

My phone needs to be charged.

Right.

And this is after two years of having it.

Yeah.

And Apple says it's a phone's battery is 85%.

Well, I would say based on the fact that this lasted two days when I got it.

That it's like 25%.

Yeah.

I don't understand that.

But that's a whole mystery.

Somebody out there can let us know.

So, I'm sorry we're not doing a watch show.

We should probably start talking about cars.

What are we talking about today, Tommy?

Well, we have a couple of things going on.

I want to talk about my Toyota trip.

So, I just had a chance to drive a bunch of really cool new Toyota's such as the final edition Mark 5 Supra.

I drove the new FR-86 GR86 Yuzu.

I drove the new GR Coral, the new Toyota Coral across.

And I had a chance to kind of do some track driving, some street driving, a little bit of off-roading.

And all those vehicles are just cool.

Right.

And then the main topic is hopefully what cars you should buy new and what cars you should buy used.

Well, I have the headline is never buy new and never buy used.

Okay.

Then what are you supposed to do at least?

Well, no.

So, these are cars that depreciate incredibly quickly in a lot of cases.

So, these are cars that I would never buy new.

But you should buy used.

And then the flip side of that, I have some cars that you should never buy used.

You should buy new because they depreciate so slowly.

Yeah, perfect.

Great topic.

So, let's start with something before we get to any of that.

And that is you just drove the brand new leaf.

What do you think of it?

Just now.

It's actually very good.

Yeah.

You know, I think there's about as much interest in the leaf on this podcast as there is for assaulting.

But.

It's the first mass electric car.

People may think it's the Tesla, but the Tesla model S was very expensive when it came out about a year after the leaf.

Sure.

And the leaf was not.

No, the leaf is an excellent little car.

I like the first gen actually.

They had the air cool battery problem, which meant that I like to say that the Nissan Leaf set back electric cars like 15 years.

Yeah.

Because yes, it was the first mass produced affordable EV.

But by air cooling the batteries, you had a very high rate of failure.

And then not required people to replace them.

And then you got those headlines going to be $29,000 to replace the leaf battery.

And it's set this like train in motion.

To this day, people think that the batteries and cars are like the batteries in my watch or in the phone.

And then after two years, they're basically going to get a quarter of the range.

Whereas we have found out that with our Model S or 2014 Model S, the thing that breaks is the car.

The battery still is 91%.

And we still have 250 miles of range.

So speaking of the leaf, I also got to drive it.

That is a really cool color.

I think it's called C foam blue.

That's the one that our press car is.

Yep.

And so anyway, the original leaf was the latest ones actually are very good.

I liked them quite a lot.

But they're a little bit of an appliance.

This new one actually has quite a lot of personalities.

It's got some really neat features going for it.

A baby Arya.

Yeah.

They finally got rid of the Chadamo Charging, which is great.

I think they finally have climate control batteries.

They do.

Yeah.

It's really funky on the inside.

It's very modern.

It's got some cool materials.

So I really think that they've done a nice job.

It kind of feels like the IKEA of electric cars.

Well, they got rid of the Arya, which is crazy.

Because I just wanted to test drove that for the first time.

It seems like yesterday.

And it's already been discontinued.

The Arya, the problem with the Arya though,

is it was never very competitive with the Model Y or with the Nionic 5.

This is a category below, or I think there's more freedom for choice.

Or there's more freedom to have, you know, some...

It's not as competitive.

Like you have the Kona EV.

You've got the Nero EV.

But this is much more funky than those.

I think it offers some features that those don't offer.

So I don't know what ours costs.

And I have a feeling the one...

42 I think.

Wait, it's too expensive.

It's about 40,000.

So they start.

There's a base one.

There's one coming.

I think it's going to be the S, which is now,

yet, which has a smaller battery pack.

This one has, I believe it's September, right, 75 kilowatt hour,

which is a pretty good size battery pack.

So it gets around 300 miles of range, ish.

Can you get on that drive?

No, only front wheel drive.

But this one that we're looking at,

the first edition, which is loaded,

is right around 40.

So it's got that photo chromatic sunroof right,

that changes from opaque to clear.

The weird thing about the leaf is it's got two chargers.

One on either side.

I'm showing it right there.

And one is AC and one is DC, which is very confusing.

Oh, but that's a Tesla port.

That is a Tesla port.

Oh, that's right.

So this is crazy.

So Nissan has AC charging with...

They've got AC charging with J7772.

And then they do DC charging with the Tesla port,

if I remember right.

Yes, exactly.

So now, not only do you still need dongles,

but depending on which side of the car you pull up by,

you might need a different dongle.

Yes.

That's insane.

That's a terrible decision.

This is going to be like,

we're going to look back at this in 50 years.

We're going to take years with both those flaps open.

This is like the horsey head horseless carriage.

Exactly.

This is like the weird transition period

from J plugs to Nax ports.

But...

You potentially could need two different dongles,

if you want to.

That's pretty silly.

And then of course, at home,

you're going to be using one port.

And when you go fast charging,

you'll be using another port.

But I bet you could charge...

I bet you could charge AC and DC on the test support.

Yeah, probably.

But I bet you can't do DC on the...

No, no.

You can't charge the testless only.

It's very confusing.

I forgot now.

But it's problematic, Tom.

I think they wanted to give you choice

and they gave you too much choice, unfortunately.

What do you think of the interior?

Yeah, it's cool.

Yeah.

I really like the car.

I just think 42 is a lot of money,

but everything's a lot of money now.

There's no tax credit anymore.

So I think it's kind of a bit of an ask for this car,

especially without all-wheel drive.

Because you can get a pretty good Model 3 now for...

But much of the country world doesn't need all-wheel drive.

We're here in Colorado,

where if you're going to go live through winter,

you probably want all-wheel drive.

But like I said,

much of the world doesn't need it.

I just think that they really improved it.

I mean, the problem with the Leaf

was even though this is the third generation,

believe it or not,

most people think that the first one

has been only one generation,

but there's now three generations.

Well, sort of.

Well, that's what Nissan says.

Yeah, that's what they're going to say.

But the first generation

and the second generation are the same car.

They're very similar.

Yeah, they're the same platform.

But finally, it's competitive and it's modern

and it's got, you know, fast enough charging.

I think it's 150.

It's still not, you know, super fast.

But it has climate-controlled batteries.

It can precondition the batteries.

So it can do the stuff that most electric cars

have been able to do for the last 10 years.

So finally, the Leaf can do it.

And it's fun and funky,

which is, you know, saying a lot.

It drives well, you know,

it drives like an electric car.

There's not a lot of,

it's, oh, it's got one weird thing,

which I don't understand.

So Nissan pioneered this.

You remember in the old Leaf

you've got this little button that says one pedal.

I said E pedal.

E pedal.

The new one doesn't have that.

It does.

No, it doesn't really do.

It doesn't do like,

so the old one would come to a complete stop.

And you would just be able to stop

and then of course,

when you went again,

then you could just let it region

all the way to the stop.

The new one will always creep.

You can't have no creep.

And then you have five levels of,

you have, there's no way to turn creep off.

I think, I think the first one,

I think Nissan pioneered the one pedal.

Well, this is still one pedal.

It's not.

So you can, you use a paddle to change the region.

There's four different regions.

Yeah.

And then there's a fifth

if you hit the E pedal.

Yeah.

So there's five different levels of region.

But there's none that actually come,

take the car to a complete stop

so that you can take your foot off the brake.

So that at the stoplight,

you don't have to, like,

you know, keep the brake on.

And I think Nissan did pioneer that.

And now they got rid of it,

which is a head scratcher.

I'm pretty sure.

I know you got that look on your face.

Like I'm wrong.

I just drove her leaf.

I know, but I was at the launch

and we had a long discussion about that.

Maybe they, okay.

I don't know.

Anyway, I think it's a good car.

I think that it's way better than the old one.

I think it's all going to come down

to what are these actually going to transact for at the dealership?

Or how much are they going to lease for?

Or what they're going to lease for.

But with the incentives going away in seven days,

I don't think that the lease deals

are going to be that crazy.

Leaf has not had great timing.

No.

Okay.

So let's talk about my Toyota trip.

Yeah.

So four cars to drove.

Yeah.

So I drove.

And the embargo is up now.

So I drove the refreshed Corolla cross

and Corolla cross hybrid.

I drove the 26th year Corolla.

And I actually interviewed the chief engineer of Gia Corolla.

All those videos are coming to AltiaThull.com.

They should be there already by the time this goes live.

Actually, I can't talk about driving impressions

because this is Patreon.

Exactly right.

But that's okay.

There's not a lot to talk about with driving impressions.

Then I've got what else did I drive?

I drove the GR86UZU.

And then the final edition Supras.

What's the UZU?

So the UZU is a special edition of the GR86.

They're only building 860 them for North America.

Oh, I like their color.

This is the same color they used in 2015

on the Sion FRS Series 1.

So it's really cool.

The most interesting thing about the UZU is not the color

or the body kit.

It's the exhaust.

It's got a crazy loud exhaust.

And it's very loud when you go down the road.

There's no driving impression on UZU.

6P manual transmission.

Mid-30,000 dollars.

I actually think it's a really fun car.

I drove it on the track a little bit.

And it was a blast.

This was one of...

I actually think that these are going to be pretty collectible one day

because they're not building a lot of them.

They've got a really distinctive color

that's exhaustively distinctive.

So I think there's a lot of potential for collectibility.

It looks like a vehicle we used to own.

What's that?

First edition Bronco.

Yeah, it's pretty similar.

I'm looking at this picture.

So is it when you get it in the light?

So what we're looking at in case you're listening to this

is a slash orange slash yellow slash orange yellow GR86.

And would you say it's similar to the Bronco

and then it's kind of a bright yellow

with a little bit of orange thrown in

or is it a bright orange with a little bit of yellow thrown in?

No, when you see them person, there's no orange.

So it's all yellow.

Yeah, it's very yellow.

That's very yellow.

Because that has orange in it.

Kind of looks like Big Bird.

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Okay.

Yeah, but it's got some yellow stitching on the inside.

So it's mostly a trim package.

But I liked it a lot.

I forgot how much I liked the GR86.

And then we drove them back to back with the standard one

and the biggest difference is just that crazy sound

out of the exhaust.

Really awesome.

Can you give me the horsepower?

Does it have more air flow?

No, it's still 228.

It's got Prembo brakes, which is awesome.

It's got sac stampers.

So it's got some handling things here and there.

But it really is the sound.

That's the big difference.

What does it come out?

No.

Oh, yeah, it's out.

Ah, maybe it might be next month.

Okay.

The yellow car I drove, which I think is going to be

even more collectible, is the GR Corolla.

No.

The GR Super final edition.

So these are two cars we would put on the list of buy them.

Don't buy them new.

Remember we're doing this list after this.

But both of these buy new because you're going to be getting cars

that are relatively low volume.

So the final edition, GR Super, they're only doing 1,300

for North America.

Okay.

And there's two things going on.

There's the standard one.

They're doing 900 of those.

And then there's this black one with the graphics on the side.

And this is called the GT4 style package.

And they're only doing 400 of these.

And if you can find a GR Super final edition

with the GT4 style package and a manual transmission,

that's one of only a couple of cars I can think of,

period, new cars that I think would be a good investment.

Because Toyota has a huge following, Super has a huge following.

Similar to Land Cruiser.

And do you remember the Land Cruiser heritage edition

at the very end of the 200 series?

Yeah, those never went down.

They actually went up.

They were selling for like $110, $120,000,

even a year old or a few years old.

Now they're still selling for over 100 grand.

So I think a GR final edition Super with the manual

and the GT4 package, which gives you the wing.

The final edition gets you some suspension tweaks.

It gives you some additional camber,

the carbon fiber wing, some bats on the front end.

With the GT4 style package, it's like 72.

So it's a lot of money.

Well, you know, compared to 9.11.

Yeah.

Oh, God.

It's a lot cheaper than 9.11.

But I drove that thing on the track.

I drove it a little bit on the road.

And it is such a blast.

That 6-B manual is so good to be in W transmission.

So, of course, we went on launch,

but when the first came out,

and the rub was that all the Toyota people were bummed

that it had a BMW powertrain,

and all the BMW people were bummed that it had a Toyota body.

And over time, I think that decision to partner,

to build this car, has actually become more positive than negative,

because that's 6-cylinder.

That's straight six in the Supra,

is being used in a lot of different cars,

including, I believe, the Enio-Sprinted Ear.

And you could pump a, just like the Mark IV.

You can pump a lot of power through that engine.

And it's very robust.

So I think, just like the Mark IV,

this is going to be a car that you can easily, you know, modify

and it will have a long life beyond, you know,

the model of the year when it's done.

Well, B-58 engine, co-developed with Toyota.

Yeah.

But great sound, great power delivery, 382 horsepower.

The only problem, the only big problem I have is...

Is that all fit?

Well, that's what, so on Patreon,

if you want to support the podcast,

patreon.com.stgflocar, you can watch it live.

And Tad P says, I wish you fit the new Supra,

I know I'm one of the few that actually likes it.

There's actually, the following of Supras has grown quite a bit

in recent years.

People are realizing that, yeah, it's going to be the W engine,

but it's still going to be the W engine,

like that's not a bad thing to have.

I love that car on the track.

The problem with it was for me,

I can't get my head.

Yeah, their, Tad is right, they're pretty small.

And then the other problem is a roof kind of comes down on the side,

so not only is it tight for me, like one size too small

in terms of the fit of the car,

when I look sideways, I'm looking into the actual roof

as opposed to looking out.

If I'm wearing a helmet, then I got to crank that seat

so far back that I'm driving like Andre.

And dynamically, it's a really great car.

You can modify it.

I think it looks really great,

but they made it just like the Mazda Miata,

one size too small for big American people,

which is, you know, I'm 62,

so I think if you're 62,

and you've got a long body like I do,

the car's just not going to work for you.

And that's a shame because I would love to own one.

I would love to own a Miata same problem.

Yeah, I, I, I,

I mean, I fit okay without a helmet on with the helmet on.

It's kind of game over,

but yeah, genuinely like that car,

a tremendous amount.

It was really, really good.

Yeah, and it's quick,

and it's manual,

which, you know, what other car can you buy that's manual nowadays

besides the 9-11?

Well,

you can get the Nizmo Z.

That's coming as a manual now.

Yeah, that's coming as a manual,

but those are also in the 70s.

And I think that is much less of an athletic car,

more, more of a GT than a track car,

whereas to me, the Supra is, you know,

very much at home on the track.

Yeah, they, they did a really good job with it.

So as a whole,

the car is excellent.

It's a, it's fantastic.

Definitely get the final edition.

My only complaint is,

if you look up Cole,

in Europe and Japan,

they've got a version of this car

called the A90 final edition.

And this is kind of what I wish that we got in the States.

So this is even a harder course.

It's got a huge ring in the back.

It's got 429 horsepower.

It's got much more aggressive seats.

So they breeze the performance into the engine?

Yeah, but I don't know why they didn't just give us this one in the US.

I mean, that,

look how much more aggressive the suspension is lower, right?

It's like a totally different car.

Look at the bracing in the back.

So I kind of feel like the Americans are getting like the,

oh, I hate those seats already.

Yeah, but they're cool.

I'm not going to fit.

No, you probably won't, but they're bad-ass.

Like this is,

this is such a cool car, right?

They're like, they're like those BMW

and Porsche competition seats where they're basically torture devices

for anybody who's,

who's like fat.

They get more power.

They get more power,

different interior and huge wing.

We get a little bit of carbon fiber

and some final edition graphics, right?

So I'm,

can I be grumpy old man for a sec?

Yeah, I know.

I'm not going to stop you.

Oh, you could try stopping me,

but I'm not going to work.

Look,

the people who can afford these cars are older guys for the most part.

Uh-huh.

So sure, you know,

build them for 20-year-olds,

like that,

that's another problem.

Civic type R, same problem with that competition seat.

And if you want to sell them to people

who actually have the money to buy them,

you may want to consider making that seat a little bit more comfortable.

I'm not saying a lot more comfortable,

but, you know,

the people who are buying these in America,

maybe this is the reason that the European one is so much more aggressive,

is most of us won't be tracking it

because tracking is a very specific thing that a very small portion

of sports car buyers do.

Most people in America,

I think, buy them to take the cars in coffee,

to take on a weekend drive, you know,

to maybe have fun with every so often in the mountains,

if you're living here,

but they're not putting them on the track.

And unless you're on a track,

those hardcore competition sports seats are just torture devices, right?

They're hard to get in and out of.

They're painful to sit in.

And I don't understand why we can't devise a seat

that does kind of the same thing that that competition seat does,

but at the same time is comfortable to sit in.

And I think I know the reason timing.

Why?

Because the competition seats say more about what the character of the car is

than about the character of the person who's buying it, right?

So it's like a giant wing.

You don't need a giant wing driving to Starbucks

because it's all about downforce.

But you still want it because it looks cool

and it says that the car is ultimately the most capable track

where the vehicle possible.

And that's the same thing with the seat.

The seat says, look at this.

I bought the sportiest, the most hardcore car.

And now to get in it, I have to torture myself.

I think they're kind of like, you know,

they're kind of like heels in that they're, you know,

beautiful, but they're impossible.

Right.

I mean, I do, for the most part,

I do agree with you that I don't think.

But when you're selling this few units,

and it's supposed to be this hardcore,

like I do understand the reasoning for putting,

it's kind of like buying a Bronco Raptor on 37s, right?

You don't need 37s, right?

You're compromising your on-road fuel economy,

you're compromising your handling.

But you're making it more comfortable for some ways.

You could say 37s a little bit.

We've got a lot more sidewall.

Well, I'm not sure it's more comfortable than 35, though.

But that's kind of like an example of like,

unless you're on the on a rock crawling course,

you don't need the tire, but it's cool to have.

I mean, I would say a better example of that

would be in the off-road world is,

probably a better example.

Something that makes the car perform better

but makes it much harder to drive and use.

Well, that's tires.

Like a 37-inch tire kills your fuel economy.

It kills your handling a little bit.

I'm not sure about that.

I like 37s because there's no downside in my mind for 37s.

Well, you kill your fuel economy.

And then if you can buy a rat car,

you can afford a 37.

Yeah, but it's harder to get an out of.

I mean, it doesn't handle as well.

You got more on spring weights.

Well, I'm tall, so it's actually easier.

It's not like tall vehicles.

But as a whole, I do agree with you that sport seats

aren't usually my jam,

but I would appreciate them doing something more

than just colors and stitching.

Well, let me ask you this.

Alright, fair enough.

You've been in that BMW competition seat.

You know, the moment the little hockey puck insert

by your private parts there.

What do you think of that seat?

Do you like that?

Would you want a car with that seat?

No.

But I'm not taking it on the canyons.

You know, people that are buying these

are usually driving them pretty hard.

But we just did it with the ZR1.

The C401, right?

We got those sport seats

and I had just probably the worst 1000 miles in my life.

That's because it's a 35-year-old car.

I wouldn't have bought those seats if I had the choice.

The seat made it miserable.

I know.

I wouldn't have bought those seats if I had the choice.

But that's a competition seat.

The bolsters are so...

I'm not disagreeing with you.

I wouldn't have bought those seats.

But then you're buying an old car, right?

You only have so many options.

If it was up to me, I would about the comfort seats in that car, right?

I think they all came with that.

No, you could get them three seats, ZR1s.

Really?

Yeah, three seats.

Whoever bought it got the wrong seats.

They got the most aggressive seats, apparently.

Anyway, so I really like the GR Supras.

They're going to go down in history as being very, very desirable.

It's going to be a moment I probably regret not buying one,

but they're really hard to find.

And I just don't want to go through the hassle of...

So let's switch quickly to the Corolla Cross,

which has been refreshed.

So we're going from sports cars to more mundane.

I don't know if I'll say mundane, but more everyday cars.

What about the new Corolla Cross?

Yeah.

Basically, it's a Corolla that's been kind of sort of lifted.

That's a little bit more SUV versus car.

I mean, it's been out for a couple of years now.

For 26, the biggest thing.

Go to the left, Cole.

So they put a new nose on the hybrid one.

So the hybrid's got kind of a flat nose.

For the right, you can see the non-hybrid.

It's got kind of more of a beak to it.

I like it better.

I like the styling better.

It looks a little bit more purposeful.

Yeah.

Corolla Cross, like it's not a particularly exciting car.

But they sell hundreds of thousands of them.

And it makes sense why they just have the right amount of space,

the right amount of utility.

They're the right price point.

So it competes with like a CRH, right, the smaller Honda?

No, HRV.

HRV, sorry.

Yeah, HRV.

It competes with the Kona, right?

And it competes with the sportage, or not the sportage, the little one.

The little key of the cell toast.

So there it is.

So yeah, I liked it a lot.

I think that the 26 update is not...

For the nose is so different on the hybrid.

Yeah.

It looks like a different car.

I think it looks better than the standard one.

I agree.

It's just a great car, right?

They've got two different power trains.

You get 169 horsepower gas one.

You get 196 horsepower hybrid one.

Definitely get the hybrid because you can get up to 40 MPG combined.

What's the price?

I think the ones we drove were fully loaded and they were like 36.

Okay.

34, 35, 36.

Somewhere in that territory.

So really liked it a lot.

I think that that's going to be a great car for somebody.

Would you say that it's become a little bit more...

And we don't want to talk about driving.

Impression is also going to say fun to drive.

But a little bit more fun in general, because the problem with this car,

at least for me, was it was kind of joyless.

It was more of a just a utility commuter that you would buy

because you needed something to get you to work

and you needed something that had a little bit more room

and maybe had a little bit more usability.

So instead of getting a Krola, you would get this.

But in terms of kind of joy, there was not a lot of joy in the thing.

Yeah, there's no more joy in this one.

You can get in cavalry blue, which is a cool color.

All right, so there's a little bit of fizz.

And then you get a soul crystal meta red metallic.

If you want the...

Did you want the Mazda color?

The Mazda color, but there's no like...

You wouldn't be like...

You wouldn't like turn around after you got out of a good place.

No, but this is not a car for that, right?

It's designed to last a long time and just be a very comfortable place.

You can get a new portabello mushroom interior, which is kind of fun.

But like there's not a lot of fizz in this car,

but it does not suppose to have a lot of fizz, right?

It's not a GR product.

What's the...

Cool, could you go down?

I'm curious...

The fuel economy is always on there's pricing.

So it starts at 24 for the base L,

and then you get up to the hybrid of 20.

And it's not...

No, actually the XLD is 29.

Oh, hybrid SE is 30.

So like they said, they could have been 30.

It's 33.

But you can get like, it's a 40 MPG combined.

Yeah, it's good.

Yeah, it's a great car.

So I strongly recommend that to anybody who's looking into getting just a small run around.

I think it's the best in the class.

So if you don't need the size and the expense of a RAV4.

Exactly.

This is the car you would buy.

Yeah, yeah.

I think it's better than Honda.

It's better than the Hyundai and Kia.

I mean, potentially you could crash on this like a Bronco Sport.

That's a little bigger.

A little bit more off-road worthy.

Oh, yeah, for sure.

This is not very off-road worthy.

But love the car.

You took it off-road, didn't you?

Barely.

It was like a dirt road.

Okay.

All right, that's not much off-road.

Yep.

So I really like this thing a lot.

And then the last one I drove is the GR Corolla.

It has had some very small tweaks for 2026.

It's got 46 more feet worth of bonding material in the body.

So a lot more glue.

Yeah, it's got some suspension tweaks.

It changed around some bolts.

It's got another intake to keep it cool for the Nürburgring.

This thing was really designed for the Nürburgring.

But it's cool talking to the engineer like they really,

what Toyota does that I think not every company does,

is they build a product and then they have the same product

for multiple years.

But every year, they're constantly revising it

and they're making it just a little better.

So they're changing the geometry.

Yeah, exactly.

This pursuit of perfection, they're changing

like the design of the bolts that hold the subframe on.

And you think, who cares?

But it has a huge impact on torsional rigidity.

And then I look at GM and they use the same torque

to yield bolts and north stars for 20 years

that were failing left and right.

And they didn't change them until 2006 or 2007.

I'm like, what?

Why?

So that's the difference.

That's what makes Toyota special is that they have a product

if it's wrong, they fix it, and if it's right, they make it better.

The one thing I would say, Tommy, is there does seem to be a sense

of Toyota doing a little bit more cost-cutting recently?

And I would point to the new Tundra

where they had to replace 100,000 engines.

Sure.

We'd point to our Tacoma, you know, where the front diff failed

on us pretty quickly.

There's some other issues that are coming to light

that Tacoma has had some transmission issues.

And I'm just wondering if to be competitive,

they are doing a little, because obviously one of Toyota's

biggest selling points is reliability.

And I wonder if that is just not quite where it used to be,

or is it just me kind of looking back finally at cars

like the old 4Runner, the old Tacoma, the Hilux

that just had these bulletproof reputation?

Do you think that they're doing a little bit of cost-cutting

or do you think it's just me?

No.

And I think that we look back with rose color glasses.

That's what I'm wondering.

But we forget all the problems they had.

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Yeah, they had to replace the frames on them.

Every frame on every second gen Tacoma, right?

Every call, right?

But that third gen foreigner was pretty bulletproof.

No, fifth gen.

Sorry, fifth gen foreigner was pretty bulletproof.

The new sixth gen.

I kind of felt like it was expensive

and that there was a little bit less.

A little more plastic in the thing.

Yeah, I don't know if that's true,

because you get no fifth gen interior.

And you're like, oh!

So, like...

I'm not sure about that.

Like, and you look at the Tundra engine, right?

Yeah, that's a big effort, right?

Certainly, but they're replacing every single one.

Did GM recall every North Star and say,

we're gonna fix this and give you a new engine?

No, they just kind of muddled through fixing it at dealerships

only for it to fail two years later.

Or could it be also that cars are becoming

much more complicated?

Yeah, I think that's more like it.

It's harder to develop a car

that's going to last as reliably

as a vehicle with less electronics

and still meet the needs and the demands

of consumers to have the technology that they expect.

Having said that, I think most cars, you know,

when I was growing up, if you can get an LTV

for the last 100,000 miles, it was incredible, right?

You were like, oh my God, this car has 100,000 miles

and now I don't think twice about buying a car

with 100,000 miles on the odometer

just because in general, cars and trucks, you know,

now live well into the 200,000 mile range,

depending on, of course, you know,

how they were taking care of the biggest issue.

I think we've talked about this in the past as deferred maintenance.

That's what kills them.

Well...

It's not the engineering.

People who basically just don't do

the maintenance efforts required.

Or if you could get an old Honda or Nissan

to last more than 50,000 miles before they rusted,

right?

That was a big problem in the 70s and the 80s

and even in the 90s.

And before Gavin and I steal and before...

Right, so I think that even though it's easy to say

these cars are getting less reliable,

if you look at the data and yes, there are issues

and yes, it's also a brand new generation of everything,

I'm not sure that they are actually that worse.

Did you drive anything else?

Is that it?

Is that a GR cruel?

Yes, what you just talked about.

Okay.

So yeah, so those are the cars that drive on the trip?

I drove something.

I got to go to Aspen, which I hadn't been to for a while,

and keeping mine guys Aspen is probably one of the most expensive cities

in Colorado, if not the entire country.

So it was kind of nice.

A portion of it invited me to go drive the Macon EV

and really enjoyed that car.

First of all, I borrowed...

I took the I8 and drove it over Independence Pass

and, oh my God, was that so much fun.

I had to get back early from the program,

so I left like at five in the morning,

and there was no traffic.

And I have to say, I may have exceeded the speed limit

a few times, Tommy.

But it reinforced the fact that the I8

is just one hell of a great touring car.

Unbelievable fuel economy.

I think I was getting 47 MPG combined for the way out

and back to Aspen, which is probably seven-hour drive.

There are back over mountain passes

and driving and very hard.

When you start to push it a little bit,

it starts to understeer.

So it's neutral until you start to push it

and then it does start to plow a little bit.

But in general, it is such a comfortable car.

It's still good looks.

I brought it to the hotel.

I valid it.

They were like, wow, great car.

They thought it was brand new and of course it's 2014.

I think it was BMW's moonshot.

And finally, now people are starting to understand

all the technology that's in that car.

So like the super cars, hyper cars of old,

I'm talking about the McLaren, the Porsche,

the Holy Trinity.

This car had that same powertrain.

It had, I believe, three electric motors.

No, two electric motors.

One for the front and the whole three.

Is it three electric motors?

It had two transmissions.

It had about 20 miles of all battery,

all electric power range.

You can switch from all battery to internal combustion.

It is missing the V8 that the Holy Trinity had.

Well, yeah, of course.

It's got the BMW 3-cylinder turbo.

But I was very happy with the turbo at Leadville

because I went through Leadville at America's tallest,

highest city at whatever that is.

11,000 feet above sea level.

That turbo was just loving the fact that there was not a lot of air.

I was passing cars left and right on some of these Colorado roads

in the morning.

Just a really wonderful car.

Super comfortable.

The technology both has held up with everything that's going on.

Two transmissions for God's sake.

That is not an easy thing to make work seamlessly.

And yet for the most part, it works seamlessly.

I love the, you know, the glowing doors.

If you don't have to get them in and out of them all the time,

they make a statement when you arrive.

They make a statement when you leave.

It's got enough of a little boot in the back where you can put your case in there.

And even though the seat doesn't have a lumbar support,

it's ultimately comfortable.

So one hell of a car.

Now the Porsche Makan EV,

gray car, tons of power,

all kinds of different specs on it.

But the one thing I would say is it's very expensive.

The one I drove was $102,000 MSRP.

And that's just a big pill to swallow.

Especially considering that you can get a Makan gasoline for less,

which I would say is probably a little bit more fun to drive.

What do you think of the styling?

You're like, and we're looking at it right now.

Yeah, I think it looks pretty cool.

So this is the second full electric Porsche in the lineup, right?

Follows the Tycoon.

Yep.

Very advanced, 100-volt.

Architecture, right?

Very impressive performance.

Charges super quick.

But this is definitely one of the cars transitioning a little bit to our list.

I would never buy this car new.

Yeah, so I think it's got up to 375 kilowatts of charging.

I mean, it's lightening fast.

Right.

But you're right because this is going to...

Let's face it, any electric car is probably not a car you want to buy,

but you want to lease.

Because otherwise, you're going to take a huge hit on depreciation.

Yeah.

I mean, I think any new electric car...

And I mean, I think part of that reason is kind of what we touched on earlier.

It's people do kind of associate EVs with cell phones.

It seems like a piece of tech that you buy,

and then might quickly become outdated, right?

There's a reason that old iPhones don't have as much value as the typical car

over a couple of years, if you look at the percentages.

So I think that people are very hesitant to buy EVs used.

And therefore, they depreciate incredibly quickly.

We saw this with Tycons.

Now Macon EV is still pretty new, but Tycons came out four years ago.

And they were 120 realistically, 130.

And now they're in the 50s and 60s for a lot of them.

So...

There's a new one up in Alaska.

I was just going to Doug's podcast and he found it.

So I have to give him credit.

But I went there in Anchorage, they had a new 2023 that was...

This is a Tycon that was 146,000, which is 104,000 now.

So down 40,000 in two years, brand new.

Well, it was never...

I mean, at this point, that's a used car.

Well, it still do.

I mean, I know it's ever been sold, but it's three years old.

Yeah.

That car probably hit the lot in 22 if it's a model of your 23.

I don't think they're going to sell...

It's a real drive.

I don't think they're going to sell it for 104.

I think that's probably more like a 70 or 80,000.

Yeah.

It's Alaska.

So that does hurt its sales potential, being in all like your car.

Hey, Cole, maybe you can fast forward to the interior on the Tycon.

So the other thing I would say about Porsche is that they do feel very well screwed together.

And they feel very expensive.

This color combination, you know Gavin, I think he sourced this.

So I love that for...

Calvin.

Sorry, Calvin.

Just make sure with our intern.

So he sourced this.

I think it was his spec.

So he did this incredible forest green with this wonderful brown interior.

Really great color combination.

Oh, it's maroon.

Is it maroon or is it brown?

It's brown.

Okay.

So forest green with brown, classic color combo.

But you can just see how nicely everything is put together.

How everything just fits well.

There's just a lot of quality.

The one thing I don't like about these interiors is how everything is so in the screen.

I mean, look, you got four toggles there for climate control.

But everything else is pretty much in the screen.

Look at the steering wheel.

You got real problems.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, Porsche is a great steering wheel.

I like the Audi, which is basically based on this.

I'm talking about the Q5 e-tron.

Q6 e-tron.

Q6 e-tron, yeah.

That has haptic controls everywhere.

And at least the third screen in this car does have real controls.

I agree.

They went too far.

What was the sticker on this?

102,000.

The Audi we had, which is largely the same car was like 77 grand.

Yeah.

So this was the S.

This was the Macon S.

Okay.

So it's all wheel drive.

I think it's got like 550 horsepower.

I just had on my phone.

And I shouldn't have.

I deleted it.

So it's got tons of power.

It's got, of course, all wheel drive.

This one came specced with summer tires.

And Calvin was gracious enough to let us actually take it on a dirt road.

Nice.

It was so much fun driving it on a dirt road.

You could actually let it loose a little bit if you turned off the traction control.

And I think Porsche initially announced that they were going to use Apple Ultra as their OS.

Yep.

But they've kind of walked away from it.

So they're now using, in this car, is using a Google-based Android.

Sorry, Android-based infotainment system, kind of like Chevy does with its own skin on top of it,

with the Porsche skin.

And it actually works really well.

And the other thing I love about Porsche is you can turn off all the nannies just by clicking on that little switch below.

So you can turn off the steering wheel shake or whatever it is.

You know, the happy controls when you're crossing the line.

And so you can kind of get it back to neutral.

It's 102,000.

You're exactly right.

Three years from now, this is going to be, I kind of fear, a $50,000 car.

Yeah.

And I think that, so the thing with Porsches is they all depreciate if they don't have a 9-11 badge on the back of them.

Which is one you want to buy and hold on to.

We bought a 9-11 Taga S a few years ago.

I was lucky to get an allocation.

Lucky to get an allocation because I know a friend of mine who was managing a Atlanta restore,

but they also had a Porsche store.

So he helped me get an allocation.

We bought that for $158,000 and we sold it for $158,000.

Yeah.

Which is pretty amazing.

So yeah, so that's a car that you want to buy.

I bet you that car was probably worth more than $158 because the dealer we sold it to didn't sell for $158.

He sold it over the sticker even after a year and 3,000 miles.

Yeah.

So they keep getting more expensive because I think Porsche realizes that if the market is saying that these cars are going over sticker,

then they should just be taking those profits for themselves and not giving it to the dealer.

So they are getting more expensive.

But yeah, 9-11s really don't depreciate over the first couple of years.

Of course, like when you talk about 20-year-old ones, they get pretty cheap, but for the first few years.

They don't get pretty cheap.

9-11s don't get pretty cheap unless you're a 9-9-6.

Oh yeah.

That's about the only one.

30 grand.

25.

That's cheaper than 158.

Right.

But let's say a 9-9-1, that's not cheap.

Any of the ones after the first air cooled 9-9-6s, they also really hold their value.

Water cooled.

I'm sorry, water cooled.

Yeah.

So other cars that I think you should probably never buy new.

I like your list.

Let's start with the first one.

Well, this was one that just got...

You should never buy, period.

But go ahead.

I mean, this is a car that's great used, but new.

They depreciate like rocks.

The BMW XM.

So these are like $188,000.

And if you go to Auto Trader Coal, and then type in BMW, yep.

And then filter for XM.

I think BMW...

I hate to say this, but I'm going to say it.

I think BMW asked a question and answered a question with that car that nobody was asking

and that is, what would you do if you built a car, or in this case a crossover specifically

for a Romanian gangster, and this is a car that you come up with?

Yeah.

So this was a really weird thing, right?

So it doesn't...

It does not follow within like the X5, X6 family.

What's a hybrid?

So coal on the left there.

Go scroll up.

Let's do any distance.

Yep.

Nationwide.

And then on the bright, go sort by price lowest.

Let's see what the cheaper XMs are doing in the U.S.

So used 96,000 miles, it has...

96,000 dollars is 7,000 miles.

Keeps going down coal.

Keep going.

$79,000.

These are cars with $38,000, $42,000 miles.

So they're essentially half priced in two, three years.

Yeah.

So this is a bad combination of...

It doesn't fall within the hierarchy of BMW.

Plus it's electrified.

It's got a hybrid system.

Plus it was $180,000 new.

So this is an example of like these ultra premium SUVs.

I don't think hold the value very well.

Yeah.

It might be...

This might be kind of a one-off though, you know.

It might be an outlier.

It's such a unique and weird car.

I don't understand it.

Like I said, I don't understand why BMW built it.

When I drove it, I thought to myself,

this is like...

This is very gaudy.

It screams, you know, over the top everything.

And so it might be an outlier in that regard,

but you're right.

That is a car that you're better off.

If you really want an XM, go get yourself a used one

and you can save half the money from off a new one.

Yeah.

And I think we see this not only with BMW,

but pretty much any, especially now,

any luxury sedan specifically ever.

So we're talking BMW A8 or Audi A8,

BMW 7 Series, Mercedes S-Class.

I think traditionally, any of the big sedans,

S-Class, 7 Series, A8, S8,

they just appreciate like rocks.

And I think those vehicles really only sell like,

I think in Europe, what happens is,

if you work up high enough in a company,

you get a company car,

and those sedans are given to you as kind of a reward

for being an executive at whatever company,

and then you get them from the company for three years

and afterwards they just follow up a cliff.

I just don't think any sedans right now are selling.

And they obviously don't depreciate as much as those three,

but even in Alexis LS is not going to hold its value.

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Tad P brings up a good point.

The BMW XM was supposed to be BMW's answer to the G-Wagon,

although we have heard rumblings of BMW's doing an actual off-road SUV.

How was it?

An answer to the G-Wagon where it doesn't go off-road.

I mean this had like 22s with big sticky summer tires

that had what 750 horsepower or something,

just some huge amount of horsepower.

But I think what the G-Wagon is,

it's not viewed as an ultimate off-roader.

Still has three lockers.

Yeah, but people view that as a status symbol.

BMW is trying to build a bold status symbol.

But the G-Wagon status is built on its off-road capability.

It's not built on its on-road capability,

because on-road they're not great.

Well, yeah.

I mean I think they were going after G-Wagon, maybe Bentayga.

Right, I'll give it.

So there is an argument to be made that it could be G-Wagon-ish,

but yeah, I see what you're saying.

How do you go next one?

I don't think I would buy a new Corvette.

Which is funny, because we just bought one.

Well, we bought a used Corvette.

I know we bought a new one.

Yeah.

We traded our used Corvette for a Z06.

Not yet though, because you can't buy him

because you're under control.

Yeah, Corvette, yeah, we did.

So Corvets do a better job of holding their values

in some sports cars, like compared to like a Z4.

Having said that, we did get quite a bit off on the Z06.

That's good.

Yeah, we got 10% off, basically.

That's good.

Yeah, so it was 130,000, and we got 10% off on it.

But look, if you look at like the price of our,

I think our C8 standard car,

and I think the Z06 and the ZR1s are kind of a different story.

But the standard Corvets, like we are stickered at 92, I want to say.

Yeah, well.

And we bought it for 70 with 4,000 miles.

Well, this is, I mean, the reason part of that problem

is that the Corvette had this wacky rollout

of the four different Corvets.

So when the first Corvette came out,

the stingray people wanted it.

So they were all up, look at that one.

Call 58 grand for a 2024 Corvette with 28,000 miles.

Yeah, and look at that, the 2025 Corvette there, 115.

Is that a Z06?

Yeah, a Z06.

It's down 7.

Yeah.

That's 24 stingray, 67 with 8,000 miles.

But I was saying the problem is that when the stingray came out,

people wanted it, so they paid over sticker.

And then the Z06 came out, and they were like, oh God,

they're going to trade my stingray for a Z06.

And so, of course, the Z06s were selling over sticker.

And now that the Z06 is here, people are like,

I want 1,000 horsepower, 700 isn't enough.

Yeah.

And then of course, right away, they came out with the ZR1X,

which is 1,200 horsepower.

And because of that, you know, anything that's not a ZR1

or a ZR1X, all of a sudden becomes less desirable

because everybody wants the ultimate Corvette.

Now, that's brilliant from Chevrolet's part, though.

Well, it was brilliant until they brought out the ZR1

and the ZR1X basically on top of each other.

Yeah, that was weird.

They should have separated those two.

Yeah.

But, yeah, I mean, what it means is that it would be tough

for me to justify buying the base car, new,

when I see what they do in the use market.

I agree.

Right.

But then is the only criteria for buying a car

that you don't lose money on it?

No, definitely not.

100% not.

And the reason we bought the Z06 is because it's one,

I think out of all those, out of all four,

that is a sweet spot in the Corvette lineup,

and will be this sweet spot.

We haven't driven a ZR1, but I can't imagine Tommy

driving a car on the road that puts out a 1,000 horsepower

to the rear wheels.

I know there's no such thing as too much displacement,

but that might be too much.

Yeah, but there's no reason to have a Z06.

The standard car is too much car.

No, I don't think so.

The standard car is especially here at Altitude, it's not.

It's not that over the top.

It's quick, but it's not like, it's not scary quick.

I'm not, we haven't driven.

I haven't driven a Z06, so it'll be funny to see what it's like

when you go up another 200 horsepower.

But up here at Altitude, 485, whatever that thing is,

I think does start to feel a little,

a little on the slumy side for the ultimate sports car.

For the ultimate sports car.

Yeah, but especially when you reset the bar

with like Tesla model as planned.

I mean, we're still talking about a car that at Altitude

does a quarter mile and 12, whatever, five.

Yeah, but 10 is a new 12 and eight is a new 10.

Then you're just feeding into that narrative

that every car has to be fast in the old one.

I'm just telling you what I feel

because electric cars have reset the bar so much.

Anyway, we'll find out.

We're going to buy it and hopefully,

we didn't lose a lot.

We basically lost like $5,000 on the one we traded.

Yeah, but which is bad.

Six months.

$1,000 a month.

Well, how much of those exempt people lost?

A lot.

They lost like $5,000 a month.

I guess it's a matter of, you know,

and keep this in mind when I say we lost.

We also created a lot of content.

Sure.

So we also generate revenue.

Most people aren't in our enviable position

where we make money buying cars

because we make videos around them.

Most people just take the depreciation hit.

All right, keep going.

We're going to run out of time.

Oh, my God.

I mean, I think the last one that specifically obviously

luxury cars appreciate fast,

but any luxury sedan that's electric,

God, never buy that new.

Yeah.

I mean, I was just shopping around EQS Mercedes.

I mean, the sedan's just never buy an electric car.

Just lease them.

Well, but no, I'm good with buying them used.

Yeah.

So, like, look at our Mercedes EQS.

This is crazy.

If you look at use, especially,

oh, my God.

48,000.

Oh, no, there are a lot cheaper than that.

Keep going, Cole.

25 for one of 75,000 miles.

27 for one.

This is a 2022 car with 86,000 miles.

Keep going, Cole.

And this isn't a one-off, 29, 31, 33.

Yeah, they're hideous.

But they were also $120,000 new.

And now they're mid-30s with 37,000 miles.

That car is, that's a four-year-old car,

three-year-old car, 22-molier.

So 23-9.

Top TFL tip.

If you're buying and you use EQS,

avoid the hyper screen,

because it makes the car almost enjoyable.

Yeah.

So if you click on one of those white ones,

they're called, those are all the 450s.

None of those should have the hyper screen.

I think most of those came with the standard screen.

Yeah.

That one's got the normal screen.

They're excellent cars, very well engineered,

very nice to drive.

So to the hyper screen,

do you see where the wood is?

We're looking at the best.

Yeah, most of the 580s, I think, came standard.

Yeah, that would be a screen.

Ah, but it's fine.

It's not unusable.

It's a little annoying.

But the problem with these cars

is they're rear-wheel drive, the 450s.

But I love these cars.

And for $27,000 to $35,000,

that is the most car you will be amazed

how much luxury you have.

It's one of the quietest cars of ever driven.

It's one of the softest, most comfortable cars of ever driven.

Rear wheel steering, I think.

Yeah.

A lot of love.

They are ugly.

Jonathan's right in the comments.

They are hideous.

But you don't get to look at it when you're driving it.

And when you're driving it, they're so good.

You do have to look at it when you're parking it.

Well, when you get out of it,

you just make sure you walk away from it.

But yeah, they really do like those cars.

They're really, really great.

Look, there's part of me that loves the bargain

that would love one of those cars.

And I think if you daily drove it, you would love it.

But the problem with any of these cars

is you're also getting to this position.

And it's not so much with electric cars,

because electric cars don't have as many parts to break.

But you get into a position

where the cost of repairing the car

is more than the value of the car.

And with that hyper screen,

you could be getting into that position.

Sure, but I think those cars are really well made.

I haven't heard of any issues with them.

And those cars are really well made.

And they're electric,

so they're not going to have that much to replace.

Yeah, and Mercedes put countless billions of dollars

on that car to make it perfect

because it was their first real halo car

that was electric.

I would argue.

And mass production at least.

So the next thing I'm going to talk about.

Can I give you a couple of cars?

I think you should buy used.

Never buy used?

No, buy used.

Can I give you a couple of cars?

So before we get to the never buy used,

the ones you should buy used.

So these are cars.

Never buy new.

Right, never buy new.

Okay.

Or buy.

Do we have a list called buy used?

I have a, yeah, I have a list called never buy used.

So this, these are cars that I think,

I'll give you an example.

Tacomas, right?

If you're looking at a 90s Tacoma,

great, buy that used.

If you're looking at 2007, great, buy that's used.

But if you're looking for a car that's a couple years old

or a truck,

think you're going to get a value.

Use Tacomas are terrible values.

Same thing with Wranglers.

Exactly right.

I listen to the show,

the car pro show,

and people call in and they think,

this is like old thinking.

They think that, you know, they can buy a car

where somebody has taken the depreciation

and they can get a deal on it.

And they're looking for cars that are super popular.

So any car that is very popular,

you think, you know what?

I'll give you another one.

Lexus GX.

Yeah, that's a good one.

That's another one.

Where you think, you know what?

I'll let the first buyer take the depreciation

and I'll just swoop in and buy it used

and get, you know, an $85,000 car for $50,000.

So that's not, never going to happen

with the GX or Tacoma or Wrangler.

So this is exactly what I'm talking about.

So this is Auto Trader.

Stay there, Cole.

Now, obviously if you're buying a 91,

it's going to be 4 grand.

Sure.

But if you look at that 2021 Tacoma listed there.

Yeah.

It's a $38,000 truck with 72,000 miles.

Yes.

Let that sink in.

This deal is asking $38,000 for 72,000 miles.

The base model next to it is got 60,000 miles.

It's got no options.

It's a total stripper, 32,000 dollars.

At that point, you're better off spending

a few thousand dollars more and just getting a new one.

And then you can keep it for fears

and then be one of these idiots that think they can get $35,000

to sell it with 50,000 miles.

I don't want me to call them idiots.

But that's the market.

That's the, that's the reality of the market.

Is they really hold their value well.

Yeah, basically any cars that don't appreciate

you're just better off to fight the bullet and get them new.

But there's very few of them.

Like Mavericks are one of them.

Tacomas, 400s, Wranglers.

Mavericks used to be one of them.

You know another one that's like this.

So Wranglers, I think Broncos are that way

to I've been looking at these Broncos prices.

You use Broncos still hold their value.

We could talk about like obvious things.

Rifle primes, that's another one.

Like Porsche 911s, you're not going to get that cheaper.

Yeah.

We just, we had that conversation.

That's another one.

Yeah. So there's a few of them out there.

They're not as maybe prominent as the cars that fall off

the cliff like rocks.

Another one, this is a really weird one.

I don't know if I think they finally killed them.

But Volvo V60 T8s.

Really?

No, the plug and hybrid Volvo V60s.

If you can get a T8 specifically,

those are still like $72,000.

You know any McLaren.

Unless you buy that one, which is 348.

What am I talking about here, Cole?

Let's see.

Oh, they're coming down a little bit.

They were really holding their value like crazy.

The facelift ones are really holding their value.

So they had an older battery and a newer battery.

So this is a good example.

The 21s are 50, but the 24 is still $70,000 car.

So that's crazy.

Yeah.

I think the message here is if you're going to get a Tacoma,

a Wrangler, a Bronco, a 911, a Maverick,

a Maverick, anything that's super popular,

just bite the bullet, get the new one,

and then you can take the benefit of the lack of depreciation

when you go to sell it.

You'll also have a new car warranty.

You'll get that new car smell.

And you're not going to get, you know, you're not going to make,

you're not going to get a bargain on any of those cars.

That's right.

All right.

That's it.

Oh.

That's just some examples.

Yeah.

And if you guys can think of more,

I'd love to hear in the comment section below.

All right.

Can I kind of go over a couple of other cars you don't want to buy new?

Sure.

Any Range Rover?

Yeah.

That's good.

That's another one that's going to appreciate like a,

like, I mean, gosh.

I mean, you could buy a Range Rover that's five years old

that used to be $150,000 for like 30K.

30 to 35K.

Those 2017, 2018 Range Rovers now, those are,

those are 25 to $35,000 cars all day long.

Yeah.

So if you do want to get a Land Rover Range Rover product,

definitely, I wouldn't buy it new because you're just going to,

you're just going to, you're just going to bleed money.

Yep.

That's true.

If you have to have that new car smell, then think about getting like a G-wagon

in that category because the G-wagon will hold its value

unlike the Range Rover.

And I, I don't know any other car where

people lust after it so much.

And then for some reason it falls off a cliff in terms of

resale value.

Why is that with the Range Rover?

Well, it's the perceived reliability.

Yeah.

Tell me.

People just think they're not going to last.

And they don't last.

Well, there you go.

Now my, my personal list of cars that I would right now

buy used, I think a good one that's come down in value.

Can you take a look at this, Colk?

Can you see if you can find one?

I drove this car on ice and then I drove it from Crestabute

to Colorado and I really fell in love with it.

And that is the Stinger GT.

Those are still expensive.

Are they still expensive?

Yeah.

Because they used to be, now he's supposed like a $55,000 car.

And they're, they're, how much are they now?

The other holding their value.

Yeah, for a five year old Kia you're still going to be mid 20s.

Yeah.

So those are expensive and that's what the 80,000 miles.

I would assume because it's a Kia.

Yeah.

So basically what you're getting is an Audi with a Kia badge

because that was Peter Schreier who was the designer for Audi

who went over to Kia and did this car.

So that's a, that's a car that I would definitely buy used.

Another one that I think is a hell of a value.

And we bought it and Andre won't get rid of it is the BMW i3.

Yeah, those are really good.

If you want one of the old new though.

No, but if you want, I'm saying use.

If you want one of the OG range extenders,

which I think is still the only range extender you can get

until the scout or the ram come out,

then these are cars again.

And actually they're very reliable.

They're very well built.

They get incredible fuel economy.

If anything, the problem with them is that little elect is a little gas motor

and not the electric.

The electric ones are almost bulletproof.

We had ours with I think 14,000 miles.

It was a 2014.

We bought it like what five years ago.

And I had to spend two and a half thousand dollars getting the

charcoal filter emission system fixed because that failed on it because

the motor, I'm sorry, the engine was never ever used.

Yeah, no for sure.

I have to go.

Is that why you like check down?

I do.

I'm sorry.

I have to get to Utah.

It's been an hour.

But I have to get to Utah.

Tom, why are you going to Utah?

We'll call it.

I'm driving to the Land Rover rally.

So someone commented about this earlier.

Case ain't going to be there through tomorrow.

And we're going to think Nathan for inviting us.

Yep.

That's right.

Nathan and Tom Cryer from the Land Rover rally.

So we're going to be out there.

We're going to do some trails.

And yeah, I'm supposed to be there for dinner, which I'm realizing

we're not going to make now.

But we're going to make dinner.

It's only 1230.

You'll be there by 630.

We'll be there by 8.

No, you'll be.

Because it's hour drive.

Did you see the weather in the mountains?

Is there snow?

Yeah.

Luckily you got a four wheel drive.

So we'll probably be there late.

So do apologize to Ram or to the Land Rover folks.

But yeah, we'll be there tomorrow during the videos.

And it will be an interesting drive.

All right guys.

Well, thank you for joining us as always.

Tommy, where should they go to see all of our videos?

All TFL.

You should get everybody on Patreon.

We're watching live.

Very, very cool.

Thank you for your comments.

We appreciate them.

Uh-huh.

Exactly right.

And we'll see you next time.

Ciao.

We'll see you next time.

Bye.

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Ep. 304: Do NOT Buy These Cars New!

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