Episode 10: We Live On The Wrong Side Of The Lithium Curtain [With Guest Kevin Williams]

Three, two, one.

All right, welcome to episode 10 of Tranherly's Mote.

We've hit double digits.

That means we're a real show now.

I'm Victoria Scott.

My pronouns are she and her.

I'm here with my co-host.

Hi, my name is Jordan Hofstadter.

My pronouns are she and her.

And we've got a guest, our second Kevin.

Yeah, I'm Kevin Williams.

Can't pronounce he, him.

Kevin, we will only let men come on the show

if they are named Kevin.

Apparently, yeah.

That is our different follow-up.

It's you and Piccoli are the only dudes who have been on.

So.

Kevin is an auto journalist who currently

works at Inside EVs.

He's been working in the industry for a very long time.

We worked together at two or three different outlets,

I think, depending on how you want to count them.

Because we both worked at car bibles,

if you remember that one, which was the drive spin-off

site about how to wrench on your own car.

Right, that's what that thing was.

I was trying to like, I have been to that URL

but what?

Yeah, I think the biggest thing I did for them,

which of course, again, as with any auto journalist career,

both Kevin and my work from there

is completely wiped from the internet because.

Yeah, that sucks.

I did some of my best early work there,

which I kind of pissed about some of the bigger stories

ended up being reposted by the drive.

So, but I don't know, I think

I did a Mary Kay expose that, but never.

Oh my God, right, I remember that.

God, I, we used to have so many more websites

and that was back even in the era of like,

wow, we used to have way more websites.

Do you remember magazines?

We used to have magazines we could all work at.

Right, right, right.

Now everything's kind of like the same,

like Larry Ellison-esque conglomerate.

Yeah, how many books can Hurst buy before they are satiate?

Right, it's like, we're like,

it looks like every auto magazine is Stalantis now,

you know, just like a whole bunch of brands.

I don't know what we're doing here.

You know, it really sucks.

But you did cool work then.

Then we worked at the drive together

after Parabible's went under.

We both did the pride features together.

That's the main thing I remember

about working together on when I was at the drive

for like a year-ish.

Oh yeah, I forgot about those.

Yeah, that was fine.

Yeah, that was very stressful,

but people seemed to like them,

so that worked out well.

But I remember working with you on those.

I remember you obviously reporting

on your Mitsubishi IMEV.

Rest in peace.

I don't, oh, is he gone?

Yeah, he died.

Oh no, oh.

Yeah, the battery, I've been trying to like

do a story on it, but it's kind of been kind of low

on my priority right now.

But yeah, basically it just,

the battery died, it wouldn't charge again.

So.

No, I love that thing.

Is there a pipeline for like replacement batteries

for those, or are you just dealing with like?

That car is Coke Kim's now.

Oh, that's what you have.

Yeah, I try, but I'm like,

there's no like replacement battery scheme

for that thing.

That's basically like,

I tell people it's like driving a rolling iPhone 4.

Well, in aesthetic styling as well.

Yeah, literally like, yeah, I couldn't do anything with it.

I think the IMEV is really charming,

and I really like it.

However, the only, and this is more of just like,

one, the amount of effort people used to put

into the Houston Auto show,

and also the health of Mitsubishi in America.

The IMEV that they had at the Houston Auto show

the last time I went as press,

literally there was not like,

the paint was different colors for panel.

Like they didn't do the paint matching,

like the pink was slightly off from panel to panel.

And I was just like, I brought,

I brought like three other people.

I'm like, I'm not having some sort of like,

I'm not, I'm not like losing my eyes.

Like I don't need to like go to the doctor, right?

Like this car is not the same color.

I thought when I was in Europe,

briefly I saw an in Paris,

somebody had a per-show rebadged IMEV,

which I didn't know was ever a thing.

Anyway, I'm sad,

because I really loved that car.

That was really, that was like a really adorable,

like sort of like in the same way that like,

when I was at the drive,

my thing was like the van,

you had like the IMEV.

It was like an automotive calling card.

It was. It was.

It really was.

It made me realize that like,

I don't know, sometimes automotive journalists

are full of shit,

because if you read like a lot of,

really though, if you read like a lot of like,

you know, articles about the IMEV when it came out,

like sure it was not a great car,

but they made it sound damn near undriveable.

And like, I love that thing.

I put like almost 10,000 miles on it before it died.

That's insane, considering it had like,

what, 45 miles of range?

When it was new, it was 62,

but by the end there, I was getting like maybe 20.

Oh my God, yo.

Yeah, it was pretty bad.

But like 20 miles was way further than people think,

you know?

Yeah, absolutely.

That's the thing where I was,

I always feel like people have no idea how long a mile is,

and that is where a lot of range anxiety comes in.

We could get it to like the US EV market later,

but I think of the IMEV the same way

I think of like the first gen leaf,

where it's like, do I want to own one right now?

No, probably not.

But I think they're so charming.

Oh yeah.

It's like that in the BMW i3,

I'm like remember when electric cars were supposed to be like,

and a lot of them still are,

but like it was just this like,

it was the last bits of what have,

what have the kids started calling it millennial optimism?

Like I'm like, everything's getting better forever.

Right, right.

It's like a quirky little science experiment

instead of like, I don't know,

a weird sad culture war thing, you know?

Yeah, yeah.

No, that's a very good way to put it.

I was just saying,

I was not picturing themself in the leaf and therefore.

Right, like everything's like weird and hyper masculine,

but also like kind of shitty too, you know?

I was just reading about the sleep truck earlier today.

Oh boy, they're gonna fail.

I didn't even cut that one.

They're gonna sell five of those things.

Yeah, I, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, no, I'm fully with you.

I, when I was living in Reno, Nevada

at Bradley Braddell's house at X Jalopnik,

I think you may have worked with him too.

I've lived in his house.

Jalopnik also, he keeps getting pulled back in.

He's worked there five separate times.

Right, right.

I mean, it works for him.

So I'm like, you know, a part of you, man.

It's him and Patrick George.

They keep getting roped back in there.

I think Patrick George might finally be free

if never having to go back to X Jalopnik again.

Yeah, he's at Wall Street Journal now, so good for him.

Yeah, he's fine, he's fine, he's fine.

Except for, you know, let me take a big sip of coffee

and read about the Wall Street Journal.

You're right, you're right.

But I'm like, yeah, I'm like, man, you asshole,

you fucking left me here at Inside EVs by myself.

Whatever, whatever, it's all good.

I was his last failed prodigy for a while.

I love that, man.

And I drove, Brad left me his leaf,

which had, I think, 42 miles of range left on it,

which dropped immediately if you ever touched,

even looked at the climate control buttons.

Yeah.

But in Reno, that was enough to go see

the other trans people that lived in town,

all three of them.

So it was cool, I was like,

this is actually really doable

because I had a garage, like a 110 outlet,

but I could charge overnight.

And I've thought a lot in my life

that if I ever lived somewhere again where I had,

like just an outlet, I would get like a $4,000 used leaf.

It's just the lack of access to an outlet

has been a consistent theme for me in Seattle

because landlords rather kill themselves

and give you any kind of charging options whatsoever.

Yep.

I would have a used BMW i3 right this second

if I could put a charger in on the front of my house.

No, we gotta get you in the Fisker still.

Oh, God.

The Victoria, do you know what I did

for five minutes at work today?

No, auto trader Fiskers.

You can get them for like,

you can get them for like two dollars.

Yeah, two dollars a firm handshake

and they'll buy you lunch.

It's actually one of my friends,

one of my queer friends, they have like,

they had two i3s and a Fisker.

Oh, wow.

Oh my God.

They should just come on the show just for that alone.

Yeah, but like.

We're gonna commit it.

Right.

She loved them though.

She's like, I love my i3s and both got totaled

because like they're kind of like,

i3 is kind of total easily

because like the, you know,

the subframes and the under structure is carbon fiber.

Yep.

So if like, if you get like even in a minor fender bender,

like you, they crack.

Like they're not really, they're not really repairable.

They're tubbed, yeah.

Yeah, so like, yeah.

So when it cracks, it's like, well, car's over.

And then of course with a Fisker,

like, you know, if you do anything to that car,

it's just, it's like instant total.

So now she has a Polestar and she's loving it.

So.

Okay.

That's, that's the natural,

that's the natural like progression for a,

in like an old i3 person.

Cause the new i3 sparks no joy.

Really?

Yeah.

BMW can't make me happy design language wise.

I unfortunately am like,

I, my dad had a,

he bought the world's like literally the cheapest

E46 M3 at one point, just as he needed some.

But because that wasn't his main car,

I ended up using it a ton when my,

when my Miata died, he was just like,

he's like, it's not, it's slightly more practical for you.

Well, you shop around for something else.

So I drove that for a while.

So I have, that is peak BMW in my mind is like E46 to VI3.

VI3 was the last thing that I saw from them that I went,

I want it.

I like, it's a little guy.

Yeah.

It was, it was-

I drove the i7, oh, go ahead.

Oh no, go ahead, go ahead, go ahead.

Oh, as I said, I drove the i7 for the drive actually.

And I thought it was,

it made me feel like Cruella de Ville.

So I kind of liked that a bit.

I don't know if it's like what I would call a good car,

but it made me feel evil.

So I kind of enjoyed that.

Yeah.

It's the i7, just the seven series.

It's the seven series with batteries under the floor.

And it's actually like hats off to BMW

because between the two cars,

there's like no ergonomic differences.

Or if it is, it's like you really can't notice them.

I didn't mind the i7, I did it for road and track.

And I was like, okay, whatever.

And then they gave me one on accident

because like there was a scheduling mix up

for the press cars.

So they just dropped one off at my house.

And it was like, I understood it more

when I was driving it every day.

Like it really is,

it just feels like kind of an overstuffed car

even for like, you know, a big luxury sedan.

And it also didn't feel like a BMW to me.

Like I told somebody,

this feels like a Cadillac de Ville in a weird way.

It's a lot.

You know, not in a bad way.

Like I was like, if Cadillac,

if it had a Cadillac badge on it, I would love it.

But as a BMW, I'm like, what is this?

No, that's a really good way to put it honestly.

Speaking of Cadillac, how do you feel about there?

Our favorite Cadillac, the electric nightmare

they will sell for of ever

and all the Celesteak, all to GM executives.

Oh yeah.

I think I, you know, surprisingly,

it seems like Cadillac's whole like EV line

is somehow doing okay, but I don't like any of them.

And I probably, I probably shouldn't say that,

but I was like, okay, yeah, you can keep this.

Although I did think it was really funny

because I was in China for, I think,

the Beijing auto show.

No, it was a Shanghai auto show last year.

And their tagline in China is like,

love is what makes a Cadillac.

No, that's not there.

Yeah, I'm like, okay, okay.

Or then like, there was another one.

It was like, I think it probably was Lincoln

or it was Cadillac.

It's like, let us be your option B.

Which is, I was like, is that a translation error?

Cause I'm like-

That's like breathtakingly honest.

Right, but also like, it's like, damn,

like let us be second place.

Like, come on, man.

And I had to, I had to ask them,

is that a translation error?

I'm like, am I stupid?

And you're like, no, that's what they said.

Yeah, you're like, is there like a cultural connotation?

Legitimately, I was like,

is like, am I stupid?

No, that's, that's what they said.

Oh yeah.

So I was, that's right, you, I was,

I got distracted, I sniped my,

nerd sniped myself with your IMEF.

And the sadness I had about it's, you know,

untimely demise.

But Kevin also, you know, freelanced basically everywhere

in the entire automotive industry.

And his work did motor one and inside EVs for like,

EVs for like, what, two, three years now?

Yeah, I think, I think we're kind of on year three,

but yeah, something like that.

And it's just like, genuinely an expert in EVs,

still actually working on like Jordan and I.

So we wanted to have him on to talk about

all of this stuff,

because he is one of the most knowledgeable people

about EVs I've ever met.

He does a lot of really, really great stories.

But specifically, one of the,

speaking of like the Chinese market

and American car companies in general,

you did a story that was,

well, I thought it was pretty recently,

it turned out it was like four years ago

because time isn't real.

But you did a story, huh?

Are you okay?

No, I thought it, like, I thought it was like last year.

Well, it was two years ago.

It's two years ago, because that was a,

because it was specifically the first time China opened

back up to foreigners.

That was two years ago.

Okay.

Because they had everything shut down for COVID

and now they were like,

okay, well now we can have people over again.

Okay, so it was two years ago.

I'm not completely losing my mind.

But it was titled,

I went to China and drove a dozen electric cars.

Western automakers are cooked,

which was just brilliant titling.

The article does follow through on that.

And it is a very compelling viewpoint,

but it was just refreshing to see somebody write

with like clarity, bluntness about kind of like,

the fact that the Chinese market has good cars in it now,

which I don't think anybody,

any other like Western auto journalist

really wants to either recognize or admit,

aside from like maybe like Jim Farley the one time

when he was like, yeah, actually they're,

they're kind of good over there nowadays.

Right.

And like in the meantime, like obviously this is,

this is 2024, you know,

this has proven itself incredibly prescient, I think,

especially as we've seen the rest of the world

be like, you know, kind of turn away from America

as it reorients towards a more stable trading partner

who is a little bit more predictable in China.

And then like, oh damn, your cars are great.

Like Canada's now probably be full of like Chinese EVs.

And I wanted like, you know,

in the two years since you wrote that piece,

is there a lot that's changed?

Like what do you, what do you,

where do you think we're at as far as like Chinese EVs

on like the global market nowadays?

I think just as a whole,

China's kind of become this unignorable force

in like, you know, global automotive, like, you know,

car world.

Even when I went two years ago

and that was kind of like the first time,

as I said earlier, when China opened up,

it was like, well, now people are finally seeing,

people in the West are seeing exactly like

just where China is and how far ahead they are

with their electric vehicles.

Now where we're kind of seeing,

can I put it?

Now it's like, before it's like, well,

they cheated or they're doing all this stuff

and we can't keep up with them to,

so how do we manage them?

Like, do we partner with them?

Do we kind of give up and let them win?

It's kind of a weird dynamic

that everyone kind of has with China now.

Yeah. Okay.

And do you, like, I had seen recently,

and I didn't put this in the notes that I should have,

but like, for example, in Canada,

I think it was Stellantis was like,

oh yeah, we're gonna partner with some Chinese automaker

to build Chinese EVs basically in Canada.

Like, do you think a lot of like,

formerly US oriented countries

are gonna head towards that model of things?

I think yes.

I think, you know, between like,

you know, what's going on with Iran

and how like, you know, gas prices are fucked now.

I think just like, China kind of has the goods

when everyone needs the goods.

Aside from the United States,

people are still starting to electrify pretty like,

you know, consistently in a lot of other countries.

And at the end of the day,

a lot of the Western automakers

kind of don't have any product.

Yeah. You know?

It's like, okay, you can talk so much shit about China,

about what they are doing or how they cheated or whatever,

but what do you sell?

You know, Ford doesn't have anything.

I mean, for better or worse,

you know, Ford CEO's talks about how China's doing this.

Now they have all this stuff coming.

But if you look at their EV plans,

they're just kind of like, whatever.

I mean, the Ford Mach-E is kind of a global flop.

They killed the, what is it?

They killed the Lightning.

They're gonna make it a gas powered e-rev truck instead,

which I think is gonna be a waste of time.

GM's EVs are kind of like,

they're kind of not really that great.

Like they're hit or miss.

Like the Equinox EV is okay.

But I mean, even if you go to China,

a lot of the Ultium cars are like flops

or have been canceled already

because they're not that great by comparison, you know?

Well, that Stellantis assuredly

is coming in at the last moment here too.

Right, I mean, the Stellantis stuff isn't that great.

I mean, it doesn't seem like the US side is doing too much.

And then the French side, the French side,

they're just kind of like, you know,

putting batteries underneath gas cars

and they're kind of working in Europe, but not really.

The other thing, he didn't even actually remove the IC.

They just kind of taped batteries under it.

They're like...

Yeah, side note, I do love it when like,

automakers do like half-assed conversions of gas cars.

I tell people it looks like a fucking sketch or shape up.

Remember those shoes?

That's what it looks like.

Or like a pair of like platform sandals.

I'm like, okay, I can like see you like.

That's what the Cayenne looks like.

The electric new Cayenne.

I'm like, this is giving like Crocs design to this.

This is a collaboration with Crocs.

Like they're really trying to hide

that big ass battery and they can't.

But yeah, you know, it's China's a very much

an unignorable force, you know,

especially in the global South

and like a lot of Asian markets,

like, you know, Malaysia, Philippines,

even Australia's are really becoming

a really big like market for them too.

Basically, they're entering these markets

with like, you know, really value oriented vehicles.

And people are realizing actually,

this is pretty nice.

Yeah.

So I think a lot of people are in trouble

because like, you know, if these cars

managed to stay together,

I think there's gonna be a really, really big shift

that I don't think a lot of automakers

can come back from.

Yeah.

Yeah, well, that's the thing like,

so we have had, you know, nine episodes for this.

And of course, we had the perfect timing of being like,

well, we're both kind of like disillusioned millennials

who don't really like the US auto industry.

And we don't have anybody to report to

so we can say whatever we want.

And then everybody brought in their earnings reports

from last year.

Oh, it's been a piece.

It started canceling, yeah,

it started canceling all of their EV projects.

And it's like, we've gone from, you know,

kind of the top line, like,

oh, Stellantis is gonna, you know,

resurrect themselves by bringing back the Hemi again,

which is like, okay, uh-huh.

Yeah, this happens every five years.

But like the funny one,

like the less funny one or more funny one,

depending on how you want to think about it,

it's like Honda, like with the,

the Affila and the Series Zero cancellations,

like they're not even the American car company.

They also seem screwed now

just because like the fallout of our market collapsing

has kind of thrown them off guard.

Yeah, it's,

I keep thinking about how a lot of these,

like as more of these first EV initiatives,

second wave EV initiatives,

all either fail or get canceled.

I just, it's not like anyone is pivoting to like,

okay, but how do we do this?

Good, like no one in Stellantis is like,

am I going crazy or did a couple of years ago,

they announced they were adding EV

to the, like trying to shoehorn V,

letters E and V into Alfa Romeo

because Alpha was going to go all electric.

Was that a Volkswagen thing

where I got, I got fucking punked by something?

I don't think you got punked,

but they definitely said

they're going to be an EV only brand soon, I think.

Yeah, and just, now it's just like,

you want another Quadrifoglio?

You want, you want whatever a Tenale is?

Like there's not an electric one.

There's not even a hybrid one.

Yeah, they cut the hybrid for Tenale,

which is crazy.

Are you serious?

Yeah, they cut it.

Yeah, no.

At least for the US market.

They can't even do hybrids anymore.

Yeah, they cut the PHA.

Like, it's, like, I-

To be fair, the PHA was a mess.

I hate it, I had the Dodge version,

I had the Dodge version was a mess,

I hated it.

To be fair, again, we talked about

how no one at Dodge should have signed off

on badge engineering and Alfa Romeo product.

If you ever, if you ever like to see

the least happy consumers of all time,

just go to the Reddit forums

for the Hornet Ornors.

Like, it's dire.

It's really bad.

Yeah, I just, I keep peaking over the fence

and like seeing like all of these new Chinese EVs

come to other markets.

And like, I think they're gonna smash Europe.

Like, the idea of being able to like

cross-shop the take-in with like the SU-7

and just going, oh,

the best version of the Taycan is like,

and I'm gonna just keep going back and forth

on pronunciations because even I've heard

like Porsche press people go back and forth

on if it's Taycan or take-in.

And I'm just like, we gotta pick.

You gotta pick.

Say it out loud in a commercial, please.

But like, cross-shopping that where it's like,

oh, the best Taycan is $240,000 fully loaded.

And it SU-7, it tops out somewhere like 90, I think,

for like the comparable level.

And I just go like, you've driven an SU-7, right?

No, I've driven the YU-7.

Oh, okay.

So the crossover one, the fake Ferrari one, which like,

I don't know if that looks better

than the actual Perot software.

I think it's great.

I drove it and I have a,

there's a video review on it for inside EVs that I did.

And I'm like, you know, it's very hard to remember

that this is this company's second car ever.

Like,

Oh God, we're so fucked.

Like literally, like it was like,

there was like nothing I could say about it dynamically

that was wrong, you know?

And I'm like, wow.

Are they even lagging behind in like,

cause a lot of these companies were like making phones

or other consumer electronics before the big pivots to EVs.

So I actually think that like, you know,

the Volkswagen who's been making cars for 100 years

without any baggage behind when they started,

like the ID4 on the inside was like,

I'm like, why did you try to reinvent buttons

from first principles?

Like we was like, wait,

we have user experience in a car figured out.

And everything I've seen from like the SU-7,

the YU-7, I'm just like, oh, they just also get it.

Like if you told me that they'd been making cars in China

for like 60 years already,

and this is just their first EV models,

I'd be like, oh, they did really well,

but like they were not building cars 10 years ago.

And now it's just like, do you want?

Yeah.

Do you want the beautiful?

My hunch is that everyone's young, you know?

When I was on the Xiaomi YU-7 launch,

what struck out to me is that

the guy who was running the whole program was like 30.

That's crazy.

Yeah.

Well, like at least running like the PR side of it.

And then there's a lot of like, you know,

young engineers and young people who have like new ideas.

And I think that's kind of the space

where they're being like,

being able to put that on display.

And that's like kind of the case for everything.

Like I think X-Pung was the same way.

Geely and Zeekr, they were really similar.

I think somebody told me that,

I can't remember, it was like the average age

of somebody who works at like, Zeekr was like 34.

Oh, wow.

Yeah.

That's crazy.

Yeah, and that's like, you know,

then you go to like, you know,

a traditional, you know, Western automaker.

And everyone's like, you know, crotchety and old.

Yeah.

Everyone leading any sort of like development program

at one of the major automakers

is like someone who's been at that automaker

for like 30 years at this point.

Yeah, I remember.

Or like got scooped from another automaker.

Yeah.

It was crazy.

I did like a thing for a lucid,

like a lucid drive awhile ago and they had,

there was a one, it was a woman who was heading,

I think it was this software team

for their like driving experience.

It was like the basic, the handling side of stuff.

And she was like, I don't know how close to my age

she was, but she was definitely like under the age of 50.

And it was like crazy for like both a woman

and somebody who was like,

even within my same generation to be

at an American car company.

And that was, I ascribed that primarily to like,

you know, Silicon Valley kind of like fresh,

you know, lose to this kind of like the young up

and coming up.

Yeah.

Like when I go, like when I lose use infotainment

in so many Western cars,

especially like BMW to me is like one of the worst offenders.

It's like, I just want to ask the designers,

has anybody on staff ever used a phone before?

Truly, it feels like.

Like everything has, everything has too many menus.

There's no sense of hierarchy.

And I'm like, have any of you ever like,

you know, God forbid texted and driven before?

Have you ever worked at McDonald's,

you know, where you have to use like a touchscreen

and a drive through?

And it just, it just fucking pisses me off.

You know, versus like when I go to these Chinese brands,

you know, they're used to working with phones.

Everybody's like, you know, kind of a digital native

just because of like how technology

kind of came to China kind of all at once.

So it's like, it's clear that the people

who are designing this stuff in China,

like, you know, they're, they're used to it.

But also like, I think there's also like, you know,

something to be said about the car manufacturers

that kind of like, you know,

try to play to their strengths here.

For example, Geely, Geely is a really famous example.

They could not do infotainment very well.

So instead of being like, you know,

instead of trying to have like spending all this time

of engineers, like car engineers trying to make it work,

they just went ahead and bought a phone company.

Yeah, that honestly makes so much more sense.

It's like, you know, you guys do it and it's great.

The same with like, you know, Xiaomi,

for Xiaomi, they started out making phones.

And it's like, you know, why don't we go backwards to cars?

X-Pong is very similar.

Like, you know, they were more so a tech company

that decided to like experiment with cars a little bit.

So like, you know, when you have those kinds of backgrounds,

it's like definitely like, I think an asset.

And I think why, you know, Chinese cars

and why Chinese infotainment really looks the way it does.

And also it just seems like maybe you guys kind of got that

from the stuff I wrote back in 2024.

It just really feels that there's a level of cooperation

between Chinese tech companies and Chinese car companies

that we do not see here in the West.

Yeah.

Whether that's at the behest of the state, I'm not sure.

But also like, that's neither here nor there.

We're here.

Yeah, I'm sure it.

Just like having like, for example,

having like the robust, you know, third-party apps,

you know, there are so many music apps

and other things that, you know,

are replicated from the phone to the car, you know.

There's the same sort of experience

between those two programs

that we just don't have in Western cars, you know.

And I just think about how like,

we talked about Apple here in the States

making an electric car for so many years

and how it seemed like a thing that no one there

could like fully ever get even past

like a very early pre-production stage.

And then these tech companies are just pivoting to cars

in the span of five years and like,

seemingly just nailing it.

Like I don't know if I've heard of a bad,

like I feel like pre-2020, once again,

once again, Top Gear being a specter of conservatism.

Like, I think, and their childhoods.

Yeah, I think Top Gear talking about like,

how every Chinese car was like,

a just one-for-one ripoff of like a Mini Cooper or whatever.

Like, I feel like people still think

of the car industry over there as like,

this lack of innovation.

And I also feel like people just think that they're lying.

Yeah.

That like, these cars are real and do these things

when it's just like, no, they sold like a hundred thousand

of them last year.

Like, I don't know, like people are driving them.

Like, I don't know what you want me to do.

Yeah, like these things are winning awards.

I mean, I think it was NEO's Firefly.

I think it was the safest car ever tested by Euro NCAP.

Yeah, anyway, yeah.

Also, I've driven that car.

It's great.

I think part of that is like, you know,

there's definitely a healthy dose of sinophobia there.

You know, of course, like, of course China cheated, right?

That's all they do is make us cheap shit.

But I do think, you know, I mean, back in the day,

a lot of this stuff was cloned, you know?

Yeah.

I mean, that's undeniable.

That's like how every auto industry starts though.

Like it's just, it's like,

whether it's like formally or informally,

basically every, like with the exception of like, you know,

the U.S. and Europe at the birth of the auto industry

who kind of like independently came up

with like some car designs.

And even then, like there was a lot of back and forth

trading ideas.

Most other auto industries kind of began from like,

we're gonna build either like a bi-license model

or we're going to like pretty strongly copy some stuff.

Like you look at like early Soviet cars

and like a lot of those are just kind of like,

hey, we put a coat of paint on like 1940s GM

that we just happened to find sitting in a field somewhere.

We found these.

They abandoned this factory when the war started.

Yeah.

But also, like, you know, a lot of,

Western automakers came to China

because they saw it as a place for cheap labor

in a big market.

Yeah.

So like, I mean, well,

I mean, what do you expect?

Come on.

Are you telling me that like you can't just coast

on the cultural prestige of Buick's

for your entire existence?

Right.

And that's what they did.

And as you saw from what I wrote in 2024,

it was very apparent that, you know,

so many Western automakers were selling

kind of half-assed versions of stuff

they were selling all over the globe,

but it was clear that they were not listening

to what Chinese people actually wanted, you know?

Like, what do they like?

How do they use their vehicles?

And I just think that a lot of homegrown Chinese brands

were like, you know what?

What are people looking for in a car

that we can give them?

Yeah.

Well, another thing too, and I do not remember

where I saw this.

I remember a video you posted.

I think we were still working together at the time.

So it had to have been, you know, a couple of years ago.

But there was a car you had tested

that had like a little emoticon emoji.

Oh, yeah, that's Nia.

Inside.

Okay.

Yeah, it had like a little cowboy hat on it and stuff.

Yes.

I remember thinking that that was just like

one of the most fun, whimsical,

kind of like build a rapport.

Every time I go to any kind of press event,

which I don't anymore,

when I used to go to any kind of press event

for like EV, especially in the US,

every PR person is like,

we have to figure out how to make an emotional pitch

to buyers because EVs are largely regarded

as interchangeable

because they don't have the same characteristics

as a gas car.

So we have to lean on heritage or personality or design

or, you know, comfort or whatever.

And, you know, to try to get people

to like emotionally connect with our product line.

And then I saw like, you know,

oh, hey, you could just put a guy in the car

that like smiles and, you know, has emotions

and waves at you.

It could just be fun and normal.

Yeah, and it is.

Like they, even if you go to like a Nio showroom,

they have like a line of like toys and gadgets

that are based off that thing.

It's called Nomi.

Okay.

But yeah, it's like a cute little mascot

for the whole brand.

Yeah, like for like the cowboy hat was like,

like the hats and stuff are definitely like unsanctioned

because like they kind of could go flying if you hit something.

But there's like a whole little like cottage like industry

of like basically a Chinese version of Etsy

where people like make and give you instructions

on how to make like little fun little hats

or accessories for the thing.

And I'm like, right.

I'm like, that's such a, that's such a cute little

like thing, you know?

No, but I just think about that.

And I think about that kind of user experience

that go beyond the car here.

Yeah.

And it just doesn't feel like Western automakers

want to do that.

No.

They don't want to do anything.

I got, I think I remember seeing some,

I think just, just in general, like an industry.

I saw somebody, I forget what TikTok or whatever,

whatever it is I saw is like, you know,

these corporations act like they have,

act upset that they have to go through you

to get your money.

Yeah.

And I just feel like there's so many,

so many like EVs or just cars in general

or just like in corporations in general

that are made with contempt, you know?

Yes.

It's like, they didn't want to make it like,

I don't like this.

I don't like doing this.

I don't like doing this job.

Fuck you, give me my money and get out of my face.

You know?

Yeah, I've also driven a blazer EV.

Kevin.

What's the dealer, is everything direct to consumer?

No.

Otherwise, there are dealerships.

So a lot of the tech,

a lot of the techie startup ones are like,

you know, direct to consumer.

Like I think Neo is direct to consumer.

X-Pong is direct to consumer,

but some of the more bigger traditional ones,

I think like BYD, Ford, Chevy, GM,

a lot of those I think actually have franchise dealers

or like release dealerships

that are more kind of similar to what you get here.

Okay, so I was wondering, I'm like,

I don't know if all of these like new EVs are being sold.

I hate to call it Tesla style,

but like I also think a lot of the American problems

with EVs are not only the contempt from like,

the automakers not wanting to do this,

but how much of it is based on dealer contempt?

Oh, absolutely.

Everyone's favorite petite nightmare person

in their local community, the local car dealers.

Like I think about like going,

I was looking at a hybrid Maverick

back when those first came out,

because I was maybe thinking about buying one.

And I just overheard a conversation

between the two salespeople about the upcoming

F-150 Lightning at that point.

And they were just like, I'm gonna steer,

like two guys on the sales were actively talking

about steering people back towards the gas F-150.

Like why though?

Because they want to sell maintenance.

They want to sell oil changes.

I'm not even sure,

I'm not even sure they think that deeply.

They just don't like electric cars.

Also that, cause they think it was gay.

Like yeah, like the electric cars for just,

the fact that EVs have become

a culture war topic in America,

I'm like, I don't know what else we could have,

I don't know what we could have done to avoid it

because of the environment that we live in.

Because I think if I knew how to avoid this culture war,

we would be way,

we would have had a lot of other things

that are more important to the public.

I just, I, it's so maddening because I,

Vicki you put it in the show notes,

but I do, yeah, looking at,

looking at all of these awesome,

cheap, affordable, wonderful cars

that everyone else is getting is just,

it is the me both Squidward,

Watchex, SpongeBob and Patrick just fall outside.

Like I just, I go like, I'm like, God, just,

do I want to just go to mainland

and just rent a car for a week

and just be like, ah, how the other half lives?

Yeah, yeah.

And it's, it's so interesting.

Cause like, when I first posted that thing back in 2024,

people called me all sorts of names.

Cause like I kind of,

I kind of came out of out of containment

for like, you know, the car world.

And then all of a sudden it was like,

everybody was like picking up on it.

Like I remember going to my link,

LinkedIn and I had people from the U.S. State Department

looking at my profile.

Yeah.

Oh, that's normal.

Right. I'm like, damn, y'all think I'm like,

people were so convinced I was being paid

by the Chinese to say something nice.

And I'm like, no, your cars are just ass.

And I don't have to, I don't have to like this.

So I don't think Americans have to give you money.

Well, because, and here's the thing, right?

Cause I remember there was a car company

that didn't maybe give people money,

but did definitely work really,

really hard to get nice things said about them.

It's been fast.

If you remember them, they released that one SUV

that was absolute ass.

And they got a lot of like favorable coverage.

And I remember you saying at the time,

how is this even like a company?

This is, this is the worst joke of a vehicle

I've ever seen.

Yeah.

That was like.

And they tried, like they were basically ready to hand you

just like a fat stack of hundreds.

Yeah.

And they were like, and if you check the glove box,

there's some walking or there's some gas money.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I remember, I remember that, that, that post that,

that's also like kind of a career changing moment for me.

Cause I remember I went to, went to Vietnam

and was like, Hey, this car is a piece of shit.

You cannot sell this in the United States.

You're going to be embarrassed.

And what happened?

They were embarrassed.

Yeah.

Called shots.

Nothing.

And so that's the thing is when you go to China

and you're like, these are actually great.

I know that you're not like.

Yeah. Cause I'm not, I'm not going to lie.

I definitely kind of came in with some reservations

cause it's like a little scary.

You know, it's a communist country.

They're not necessarily,

the government is not friendly to the United States.

Yeah.

And I'm not going to lie and say,

I'm not going to lie and say that everything is like

above board in China.

But I will say that, you know,

what they're turning out is really good.

Like scary good.

Like there, it just, it just,

it just kind of pissed me off.

Cause like, you know,

I come back to the United States

and whenever we do any sort of like EV comparisons

or like people ask me,

it's like what kind of EV should I buy?

And I'm kind of like nothing

versus like if I, if I lived in China,

there would be so many choices

from so many different price points

that I could put people in, you know?

If I lived in China,

I would have a hard time picking up which car I wanted.

Yeah.

You know?

Like off the top of my head,

I can think of at least 10 different cars in China

that I would like, you know, give a, give a hard look

versus here there's like none.

Well, one, one, one, but it was discontinued.

And also it was technically Chinese.

It was a Volvo EX30.

Oh, right.

That thing.

Yeah.

Which is also like technically the worst car

on that, on that platform

because it's a, it's a Gilly platform developed.

But I've driven all of them on that platform,

which is crazy.

I'm like the other one

who's like not a Gilly employee

who has driven them all.

And I think it's kind of the worst one.

But worst being a relative term.

Like I think I still think it's nice.

Although a lot of like American reviewers didn't like it.

They just don't like software.

Part of it.

I mean, also the software is a little fucky, but whatever.

Are they still bringing that Lotus

that is that electric Lotus SUV

that is a Gilly underneath?

It's been on sale for actually a little while now,

very quietly.

I don't go to Lotus's website a lot.

They are not, they are not selling very many,

I think globally,

but they're trying to make it work.

Like they just, they just announced

a hybrid version of it.

Ooh. Yeah.

Cause even in China,

although we're like EV dominance is like really high,

they still have a like a lot of blind spots

where there's definitely people in China

that are not convinced yet.

Which is why they have like

so many like long range EV, extended range EVs

where it's basically like, you know,

mostly an electric car,

then they have a little ass gas engine,

basically like a BMW i3.

Yeah, or like the Ram Hallmark ornament

that never came to be.

Yeah.

And like episode three of this show,

Jordan shared that she saw a Hallmark ornament

for the Ram E rev that was,

it came out and was sold and then discounted

as the vehicle was discontinued.

Yeah.

That thing is so funny to me.

They were sold out of it,

which leads me to believe them.

Like, did other irony poison like out of vote?

And like, who got to these before me?

Like, I wanted that ornament.

Yeah.

I think that's also kind of unfortunate

that car didn't come out,

but also like noise to Lantz

is probably a hot ass mess.

Yeah.

What if it sucked and they were just,

yeah, that's always my thing where it's just like,

how many of these like,

I'm,

Honda's hybrid offerings are so good.

I guess.

That I don't think that they canceled the EVs

because they weren't coming together well in like dev.

But there's part of me that's like,

what if they just weren't coming together?

I think it wasn't just coming together.

I,

two things.

I went to Japan to look at Honda stuff

back in like 2023.

I can't remember.

Maybe it was 2024.

But they flew me out to Japan

and they had me driving a prototype

which was like basically a cut up accord

that they fit underneath, you know,

the chassis that they had under in development.

And then they had all this stuff

that they were supposed to,

all this like, you know, software stuff

they were supposed to put into the new cars

that were coming.

But I could tell it was very much proof of concept

rather than actually anything working.

Like a lot of it was like, you know,

video illustrations.

Like I told my friend is like,

this reminds me when I was in design school

and you know, I had to come up with these futuristic ideas.

I mean, you don't know how to make that work.

You're like 19.

But that was like the gist for the whole project.

And then I had a friend who told me some stuff

about the project there.

And they're like, yeah, we just got like,

I knew something was up

when Honda started bragging about,

oh, we just now got the glove box to open from the screen.

And I was like a few weeks ago.

And I'm like, oh, so they basically were not,

that thing was not finished.

Also it was just kind of a dumb ass idea.

The zero series saloon, the cheese wedge looking sedan.

I remember going to Japan and I was like,

hey, this car seems like it's full of a lot of stuff.

You know, a lot of like, you know,

sensors and software.

Do you, you know, there's a real Darth of affordable EV.

So how much is this thing going to cost?

And they wouldn't tell me.

And I was like, do you think it's more like

Tesla Model 3 or Tesla Model S?

I was like, well, we envision it closely

to the Tesla Model S.

Oh, oh, no.

You can't be selling that with the H on it.

You got it.

Right. And everyone got, everyone got,

everyone like the room got dead silent.

It's also, it reminded me of the time

when like Honda was trying to get with Nissan.

And Honda was trying to get that was five minutes.

Yeah. Well, it was so funny because I was at

another press conference with that.

And like Honda was trying to get with Nissan

and somebody asked and was like,

so what do you think Nissan is going to bring

to the table in this deal, in this partnership?

And one of the Honda top brass was like,

you know, that's a really good question.

I've never thought about that.

But by, which is one of the funniest things

I've ever heard.

I was like, and I could tell from that answer,

I feel like he really did not.

He was so full of the zeal of finally being

the one to defeat Nissan once and for all at Honda

that he's just like, no, we just got to do it.

And it's like, well, what do we get?

He's like, oh, fuck, we've got to own

2020, whatever Nissan.

That's the net negative for everyone.

Right. They were like, well, maybe they can do big trucks.

And I'm like, there was no, no zest or joy

in that statement.

And then literally three weeks later,

they're like, actually, we're just not going to,

we're not going to do this.

This is stupid.

Just, yeah, fuck it.

No, scrap this one.

We'll just, we'll jump in.

We'll try again later.

Well, I do have good news though

about the future of the American auto industry.

I don't believe you.

Oh, I've got great news.

Come on.

Why would you not believe me

when I come into this cadence

and say I have good news?

So Kevin is going to know who this is,

but Bernie Moreno, who is a senator from Ohio,

is forwarding legislation in Congress

next month, reportedly, to ensure,

quote from Bernie Moreno,

there's never a scenario

where a Chinese automobile will enter our market.

That's hardware, that's software,

that's partnerships.

He then went on in the same statements

to call Chinese cars a cancer.

That is a direct quote from him.

And just for everybody else,

because I could see Kevin getting ready

to punch the table,

Bernie Moreno owns, he owned 15 car dealer shorts

in Ohio.

He sold some of them fairly recently

to finance his blockchain car titling company

called Onam.

He is currently an active senator.

He replaced Rob Portman, the one Ohio senator

that I met with my mom,

took me to the Republican Party headquarters

to volunteer as a 14-year-old.

Victoria?

I went to a baseball game with Rob Portman.

Wow.

Yeah, I know.

Are you okay?

Oh no, no.

That was part of my home school curriculum

was to go make calls.

For the Republican Party?

Yes, when I was like 14 years old.

Oh my God.

Imagine being one of the adults

on the other end of a line

when you have a squeaky voice for a 14-year-old

calling you about Republican politics?

No.

Oh my God.

I would have been like, where's your mother?

Let me speak to her, please.

No, I think, I read that too,

and I'm like, you know, that's futile

because I'm learning behind the scenes

that we're kind of at the,

if you can't beat them, then join them stage

for a lot of like Western automakers.

So I feel like it's gonna be really soon

that either, cause I know Ford wants to do

some basically Julie stuff in Europe.

There's actually some talk that Leap Motor,

which is like partnered with Stellantis.

They might start building in Canada, maybe.

And then there's like BYD,

of course, that's the big one

that maybe they'll build something in Mexico,

maybe they'll build something here,

maybe they'll do something in Canada.

So it's like, you're trying to stop this from happening,

but it's clear that it's gonna happen.

Right now, at this point,

we're probably gonna be the only holdouts

that doesn't have Chinese cars in here.

But also, I wouldn't be surprised

if we end up like weird captive imports,

sort of like Geostorm rebadge Zuzus.

Geostorm, I...

You're right, you know what I mean?

Can you imagine like, you know,

like a Geostorm-esque, you know,

rebadge Chinese car on a fucking U.S. American lot.

Okay, but think about if they did just bring back

like the amount of like 80s, 90s bullshit nostalgia

you get for bringing back the Geo name.

Like they work good cars, but thanks to the,

thanks to Brad Brownell and the other lovingly saying

this dipshits at Radwood,

like we all like the stuff that's bad now.

Which like, that would be so good.

I don't know if good is what I could say,

but sure, I'll take the Chinese EVs.

Yeah, I don't care what they call them.

I could say this now

because it didn't end up happening, obviously.

BYD was looking at land in Texas like four years ago.

Wouldn't be surprised.

Very speculatively, but yeah,

there was a huge plot that was not that far

from the awful Tesla Gigafactory in Austin

that BYD was looking at because the state of Texas was

for some reason talking with them about it

when I know who runs Texas.

So that's-

They had it.

We'll see the thing about Texas

is that they have an oppositional defiant disorder

and Biden was like, no Chinese EVs.

And so they were like-

But also at the same time,

I feel like a lot of these Republicans,

they just want money, you know?

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

This is what gets me.

I told somebody, it's like, you know,

I feel like BYD should just drive a seal to the White House

and make Trump sit in it.

And then like, right, and then he'll be like,

wow, it's so impressive.

And then two weeks later,

we have like a BYD store on every corner.

Yeah, well, remember he went to Japan

and he came back and he was like,

we gotta have K cars.

Right, right, right.

And I'm like, I'm really surprised

the Chinese government hasn't done that yet, to be honest.

We have Bob Donnie in there

with like another fake newspaper with headlines

of just like Bob Donnie's like,

actually, sir, there's a little company

that I think you'd like a lot called BYD.

You know, it's called,

it's short for build your dreams

and they can build your dream if you'd like, right?

And it's like a car that will get you to heaven.

Right.

Just a car that will get you to heaven.

You know who else built dreams?

You, sir, with your real estate ventures.

Right, right.

It's just like I should BYD, you're right.

Right, right, which is like kind of pathetic,

but also like, you know, very low tech way of getting in here.

But I feel like it would work.

But yeah, I'm curious to see what happens with Canada,

you know, cause you know,

they're deciding to let in Chinese cars

basically by like cutting down the 100% tariff to 6%

but also like, yeah.

Ooh.

Yeah.

But it's also like based on,

I think there's like a limit that you can import.

I think it's up to like,

I think 30,000 cars a year,

then I think it goes back up.

But still, that's like a really big start.

I mean, yeah, that was,

the thing is, is like that was similar to like

what happened in the 80s, Japanese car companies,

which is how Honda moved over here

with the Columbus plant.

And then also it's still,

like the limit still wasn't enough

to keep Japanese cars from dog walking American cars

for all of the 80s, most of the 90s.

So. Right, right.

Yeah.

I do just think that we are repeating that.

Yeah.

Well, and I think,

to Japanese or even like Korean cars.

But it feels worse now,

maybe because of social media

and how polarized everything is.

Yeah.

Because I feel like even with like Japanese

and Korean cars with this kind of animosity,

I feel like it was never like this.

Well, because they were still cars

as we all conceived of them.

They weren't this like,

sure, there was definitely like

the culture wars have always been going.

That is the Reagan administration.

It's, it's the Nixon, it's everything.

But I think with the fact that the thing

that these Chinese automakers want to bring in

are cheap EVs that are good.

It is both, not only are they Chinese,

they also have the sin of being non-traditional cars.

Like I'm like, I don't know.

I think if the Chinese were like

trying to come in 10 years ago

with like a Hellcat Challenger company competitor,

I bet there'd be a bunch of people who's like,

they got V8s over there too.

Maybe we got more in common than I thought.

Like, you know, I just like,

I think there's a weird story going around that

BYD is either trying to join F1

or buy into a team,

either at like sponsorship or something.

And I'm like, is that them just,

like how many more eyes do we need

to just throw ourselves in front of

so we start normalizing ourselves internationally?

Yeah, I think that's partially,

I also think that's kind of like

Chinese cultural export things.

I know Julie has been trying to do some racing car stuff.

They own Lotus.

It's the easiest slam dunk in the world,

just to do the Lotus.

True, true, true.

But I think they're like,

I think they would rather have them

as Julie as Julie.

They'd rather be Julie, yeah.

There's, I mean, there's a lot of talent in China.

Like when I drove the, was it the Neo Firefly?

Like the guy who was with me,

like with me to make sure I was like,

you know, not gonna kill myself in Shanghai.

He was like, he used to work for Rental Sport.

Like he was a driver.

Yeah, he was a driver for Rental Sport.

And he's like, I just really love this car

and like how it feels.

I'm like, huh, so they worked on this?

You know, I just think of stuff like that.

It's just like there's a whole lot of new ideas

and new, you know, ways of thinking

they're really being given a realm

to like, you know, really run free to a certain extent

to really make these really cool things.

Although I will say,

things are getting a little less cool in China.

You know, I don't know if you kind of noticed lately,

like everything's kind of turned into

the same crossover blob.

Yeah.

It's a little samey lately.

It's like the car civilization theory for like animal life.

It's just everything after a while

converges on the form of a crossover.

Yeah.

I wonder if that's just because of like what,

if they are trying to export these things worldwide,

especially to like Europe, Canada, Australia,

like if all we as the Western car market

has been making is these different crossover blobs,

there's part of me that goes like,

oh, is this what you think you have to sell to people?

Or is this what you just like want to safely bank on?

Like if we're doing this like,

I know expanding overseas for a car company

is expensive, no matter what, but like.

I think part of it, I think part of it is that

I also started to realize that like,

China doesn't reward creativity in some of those places

as much as you think you do,

as much as you think you, they would.

Like I don't know if you remember Hi-Fi.

No.

Yeah.

They used to make those really big.

I wanna know this one though.

They used to make like really, really cool super car

or like super car almost level,

you know, weird shaped things that kind of look like Gundams.

That's what Patrick George told me.

They kind of look like a Gundam,

but they were like super cool and like really efficient

and the company ran out of money

and the basically like the whole operation face planted

partially because the cars,

even though they were expensive, they were just too weird.

I even think of Zeekr, like the Zeekr X,

which is like basically a really a cousin

to the Volvo EX30.

Kind of a weird looking car.

It's like a small crossover.

It's got a lot of shit in it.

Like the screen moves, the other stuff like the,

it's just like full of stuff in it.

And it's just absolute sales plop.

Same with the Zeekr mix,

which I actually written about that.

It's the one that has the all four doors open

and you can walk through it.

It looks like a, yeah.

The one where the seats turn around and-

Yeah, the conversation pit card.

Yeah, flop, absolute flop.

Oh, I bet, I bet.

Yeah, unfortunately, even in China,

people like, even when I was driving in China,

people were like asking me questions like,

oh, what is this?

And it was like curiosity,

but like I would never buy that, but that is cool.

Have we ever actually been,

and I, one of my friends in high school,

he had a midi van that all the middle row

could turn to face the back row.

Yeah.

It's not pleasant at speed.

It's not good.

To be, excuse me.

My Toyota Hi-Ace did that

and I permanently left those seats in that configuration.

Everybody was riding in the conversation pit.

But you were driving it.

You were facing the correct way.

I went in the back occasionally.

To be fair, you can't drive the Zeekr mix

with the seats turned around.

Oh.

Well, because it was made for a very specific Chinese audience

because like, basically I was told during COVID,

people couldn't go anywhere inside.

So people, that's part of the reason

why I guess SUV started taking off

is because people were,

well, now we can't go anywhere.

Let's go camping.

So cars became like a weird third space for people.

So Zeekr was kind of like trying to cater to that.

It was like, what if we made a car

that's a third space entirely?

So it's kind of like a parallel phenomenon

to like overlanding in the States.

Yes.

Sort of like that blowing up during COVID was very much like,

hey, oh, we got to get out.

We got to go do something.

That kind of makes sense, actually.

Yeah, I've got, what is our road of cars?

Yeah, see that's what I think about.

Like, I think about like how these Chinese manufacturers

are really trying to meet a need for the market.

They're like really thinking about

how Chinese people use these cars

and what they like about them.

And they're trying to meet those needs.

And I just feel like people in the West

have stopped asking those questions.

Yeah, I mean, I do really want to know though.

Like, do you know what off-roading in China is?

I don't know, I know it's becoming kind of a thing though.

Okay, oh yeah.

Like I know there's like a whole,

like I think Cherry, they have Jet Tour

and a few other things that can go off-road.

Oh, iCar is also really good,

really good brand by Cherry.

The iCar V23 is one of my favorite things to look at.

It's inspired of the Chinese military jeep.

Oh, cool.

Holy hell, this is cool.

Yeah.

Is it Vicky as hell?

I bet it's Vicky as hell.

It's so cute, I told, I was like,

damn, if they were to bring this here,

they would print money.

Like, I don't even like,

I don't even like off-roaders like that.

Like, I hate off-roading, but like, I would buy that.

Yeah, yeah.

This is so cool.

It's like, it's like a very,

it's like a cross between a Jeep Wrangler,

a Land Rover Defender and like a Suzuki Jimny,

but cuter than all of them at the same time.

Yeah, yeah, but it's awesome.

They're also, they're also dirt cheap.

Oh my God.

Yeah, I will say just kind of rule of thumb,

you just should probably like double any price.

But still.

Like, I think it's like roughly like 16 grand,

but like still like what, $32,000?

That's still a pretty good deal.

Oh man, all right, well,

I'll put a picture of this in the show notes,

but yeah, if you're going to rotate this in your mind,

just imagine something Vicky as hell.

Yeah, I love it.

It's, it's, yeah.

I just don't.

Yeah, I, and then we get, we get shit

like the In-Yours Grenadier, like the.

Yeah, a car made by literally an oil company.

And a maniac and it's all sorts of, that's, that's what we get.

That's our fun new car company is old regurgitated slot.

We could do an entire special episode on the Grenadier,

but on the topic.

The In-Yours guy will have me killed for the things

I want to say about the terrible In-Yours fans.

On the topic of car money,

if you're cool with me, bring up one last thing, Kevin.

Sure.

One of the other things that you talk about

a decent amount in your reporting that I really respect,

because it's something that I think the industry

generally does not like to discuss,

is that money is real and it can hurt you.

Yeah.

Uh-huh.

Audit journalists kind of like,

you get a, when you work as an auto journalist,

you just get like an endless like parade

of free car after free car.

And they come, you publish what they cost.

You talk about like where it slots into its market,

but like, you are not paying anything

for any of these.

And I think people kind of forget that money is real

and it is increasingly becoming impossible to buy a car.

And you mentioned this quite a bit.

You know, you've actually talked about this a lot.

One of the things that you did at car bibles that I loved

was you actually like bought,

and you think you still do this,

I just don't think you write about it,

but you bought old cars and you would flip them

after you would do repairs yourself.

Like you were very much like a shade tree mechanic

better than I am,

but like in the same vein, right?

Mm-hmm.

And so I know that you understand really well

like, you know, the need to have like an affordable vehicle

on like a very personal sort of felt sense.

And so I, we got some new data this week from Edmunds,

which the average new car monthly payment is $773.

And I feel like we should just sit with that number

for a minute.

Yeah.

You know, I'm unsurprised.

Yeah, but like, holy shit.

Yeah, I don't, I think about this, you know,

all of my friends, I make the least out of them.

And I feel like, you know, even for Ohio,

I feel like we're kind of,

I don't want to say well to do,

but we're definitely above, you know,

the median income here in Columbus, Ohio.

You know, I have friends who make six figures

and none of them can afford new cars.

Yeah.

No.

Yeah, we've talked about this a bunch

because it's like, I know, I mean,

I definitely am on the lower end

of income for people I know.

And I know a lot of people who work in like the tech industry

and I would think that they would be out there

buying new stuff and they're not,

almost like, I know a couple of people who have bought

like brand new supercars because they have done,

they had like IPOs years ago

and they don't worry about money.

It's not a real number.

And so that's just like that's,

and like that's an entirely different market.

And then I know, I think I know like two people

who have bought like new cars

and everybody else is like either lightly used

or leases or like they're still deal hunting.

And it's like, you know,

I guess if it's $773 a month for a car,

that makes sense to me.

Yeah.

What's my first apartment cost?

Legitimately.

Like I remember paying $770 a month for,

or $715 a month actually in Columbus, Ohio

for my first place.

Yeah.

I think that also that study said that there's,

I think 20% of all car buyers

are having paying more than a grand a month.

That's a mortgage.

And it gets to me because like,

you know, these new cars are so shitty.

You know, they're not in that last of a life alone.

No.

You know?

That's the other thing.

Yeah.

Like the amount of like,

I've seen like new escalades and shit

just like throw rods for no reason.

Yes.

Like have a whole ass hole in the fucking motor.

I'm like, what am I,

what are you supposed to do with that?

We've taken a step back on reliability.

Well, I feel like have,

not even just outpaced like the cost of living

but like just sprinted past it

because with the culture we live in

and how where most people live in the US,

like it does feel like the attitude is like,

what are you gonna do?

Not buy it?

Like fucking like it.

Yeah.

You're gonna pay it.

$5,000 a month motherfucker

because you want a car that works

and even then, good luck.

Yeah.

They're really able to sell you a Dodge product

that is a badge engineer,

Alfa Romeo.

Like I don't, it's all shit.

Yeah.

Just further data that Edmunds compiled

is that the average loan,

so not the sale price,

the average loan amount currently for a new car

is $43,889.

That's what you're financing.

The average down payment is also just $6,206.

As the average car does,

if you're doing the math in your head,

yeah, the average car is like 50 grand

because you know,

and that's what's kind of insane

if you're like an auto journalist, right?

And this always drove me that shit insane

when I was actually working in the field

is I would get like,

I remember the one that drove,

that killed me was I had an explorer

and it was like an explorer limited.

The one that looks like a cop,

well, they all look like cop cars,

but it seemed like it looked even more like a cop car.

And it was like $52,000.

And I was like, this is a Ford Explorer

and it's like,

this is what my parents' first house cost.

Yeah.

What the hell?

And it's like, oh, that's an average car now.

Whoops, I guess it makes sense then.

Yep, that sounds like when I had the Dodge.

So we're picking on this damn car.

I had the Dodge Hornet R2.

Because it sucks.

I had the Dodge Hornet R2.

At first, like for the first five minutes,

I was like, oh, this is probably not that bad.

Like I didn't mind driving it

for like the first hour I had it.

I mean, this is like a good $30,000 car.

And I pulled out the window sticker and it says 52.

And I was like, what the fuck?

I was, my parents bought,

which they called it their last new car,

which I said good luck

because as much as it is still a Honda,

it is a Honda Civic hybrid.

But.

Oh yeah.

See, it would even like a,

like Bear Bones Civic Starts at right now.

Yeah.

Like the Civic starts north of 30 now.

With, with like destiny.

Oh yeah.

With destination V and Tarix.

Yeah, it'll take you there.

Yeah, yeah.

Like the things you can't negotiate your way out of,

like someone was like, why do you like,

why are you so in the tank

whenever any of your friends are like trying

to buy something new that you go Mazda.

I'm like, cause it's the only car company

that has numbers that I still feel like

I can understand for it, for like a hatchback.

You know what I mean?

Like I just, I'm like, Mazda feels like

they are tethered to reality still

in a way that a lot of these other, like,

yeah, I, God, I was the last reasonable thing

that I tested.

Can I make it worse while you're thinking?

Yeah.

No, please don't.

Cool.

Okay.

I just, like every single line of this gets worse.

84 months or longer loans are now 22.9%

of new car loan terms.

But that's the only way you can afford it.

That's the only way you can afford it.

84 months is enough Twilves

that I had to think about how many years that was.

Yeah, that's seven years.

I just did the quick math.

That's the only way people can afford it though,

which is so fucked.

Yeah, well the thing is, like, you know,

you might say, well, they must be getting them

at good rates, to which I would say

the average new car APR is 6.9%,

which isn't historically terrible.

Like, if you look at, like,

car loan APRs over the years, you know,

in the 80s there are people who are paying

like 13 or 14%, but they were also paying that

for like three years.

Seven years at 7% is insane.

If you buy a used car, average APR is 10.8%

with an average length of 70 months

and $550 a month payments.

So a used car.

No.

When did we normalize finance used cars?

Well, COVID, COVID.

COVID, yeah.

I was just like, like CarMax,

sure CarMax would have given you a loan.

Like, but like, I was always under the impression

that my, you know, what my parents taught me was like,

well, if you just want to pay for a thing in cash,

you should buy used and then it'll be like,

you know, a nice used car is $10,000.

And now it's just like, no, no, no, no, no, no.

A thing that has been underwater in Houston is $10,000.

Yeah.

Again, I'm a big fan of Honda Fit thought.

And the Honda Fits do not depreciate.

A 2020 Honda Fit is the same cost now

as it was in 2020 with 15,000 miles a year put on the odometer

and it will stay like that for the rest

of America's existence.

Yep.

I really want the way that people talk

and bring a trailer comments about like,

well, if you bought this Ferrari at this point

but it's just be doing that math of hot,

like you could drive that Ferrari for free.

It's like, well, I can,

I drove a Honda Fit for free.

They're here in cereal, like, what can I say?

And then of course, the part of this

that is like directly relevant to Kevin's line of work,

which is that EV is average $55,300 new,

which is historically cheap for them

for the Delta between like a gas car

and an equivalent EV car.

And yet despite this, there are 130 days of supply

sitting on dealer lots right now.

And if you're not familiar with like days of supply

as an industry term, it's just like,

how if they were, if they stopped making EVs right now

and you had to just sell through your inventory

at current rates, how long would it take

for dealer lots to run dry, basically?

130 days is a lot.

So it's, what was the pre-COVID supply chain?

It was usually you had like,

it was like, oh, you mean like 30 days?

Yeah, it was like 30 days.

That's good.

Yeah, it was crazy.

That's why people went still all in on EVs

because it's not the only thing that people would get

which, you know, duped a lot of manufacturers into being like,

oh, people want these like this.

Also, we still have the tax credit.

That too.

I assume that number from Edmonds

is not taking the dead tax credit into the tax credit.

That's where it's gone.

Yeah, the tax credit is gone.

I know, I know.

EV sales have halved since then.

Well, yeah, and this was my point

like a couple episodes ago when we were talking about this.

It's like, I think also a lot of manufacturers

got really used to in the States

leading on that tax credit

to make their MSRP math actually palatable

because like none of these people,

like I feel like a lot of people went way expensive

for their first round of EVs

because they're like, well, the tax credit means that

like no one's really paying that number.

Right now it's just like, when people are like,

you want me to pay for how much fucking money

for the Fiat 500 electric?

Like, just like, get out of my house, like.

Yeah, I feel, I almost feel bad for the Fiat 500 E though.

Almost.

I do too.

It's like.

It should be great.

It's like, I don't think it's a bad car.

I think it's just an old car, you know.

Like it clearly was like introduced in Europe in like 2019.

Yeah.

And it feels it.

You know which one I feel kind of bad for.

And I know that this is like, I probably don't need to,

but I kind of feel bad about the ID buzz.

I know.

Because every time I see one, I really think

that they're fun and cheery.

That's fair.

They're probably atrocious.

I have a driven one.

They're okay to drive, but I think I told somebody

who's like, you know, it's definitely a European

commercial band with like retro styling.

That's like.

It's a panel band with a happy face.

It really is though, because like it misses a lot

of things that like regular minivans can do.

Like it's actually, it's kind of not that nice.

The seats don't fold flat because like,

where you're going to put them,

there's a big ass battery under the floor.

Oh shit.

Yeah.

There's also no cup holders for the second row.

What?

Yep.

How did they do that?

You know?

I cannot say that we need to live out of our cars,

but this is America.

That's what we do here.

Right.

Deprive your children of their water.

I guess what happened is that they were supposed

to have the airline style trays that they have in Europe

because you know, VW likes doing that shit.

And then they pulled them at the 11th hour

because I guess they wouldn't pass on dots back.

They won't.

Yeah.

I do know that they won't.

Oh God.

So the whole van has like four cup holders

and you have to like get some clip one once

from the dealer.

It's so fucking stupid.

It's just like, why, who thought of this?

If we're just naming EVs that we wish had worked in the US,

I really wanted the electric mini to do well

because wasn't that such a good, like,

if they were going to stop making a cute I3,

like just make a good electric mini.

You know, I...

Make a good city car.

I've heard the new body mini and the Aceman

that they sell overseas is actually really solid,

but also like that's technically Chinese.

I just won't forget it.

Like it's made in part by on Great Walmoters.

Oh, the cycle of BMW and Mini getting very bad

at those Chinese companies for basically selling knock-off

minis to now the mini itself is a Chinese car.

Like even the Renault Twingo,

the new Renault Twingo resurrection,

I think that's also Chinese.

It's made in part with Geely.

I love...

This is a Renault Twingo podcast.

I want the new Renault 5 to do well.

It seems like it's selling well.

It is.

I think they've already sold like 100,000 of them.

So that's like, you know, good for them.

I'd say out of all like, all like Western brands,

I think Renault is like the one Western brand

I think is really doing it right when it comes to EVs.

From what I can see,

they're like really,

they're really leaning into their strengths here.

You know, like I've heard the software

still sucks in those cars,

but like I've heard they're really nice to drive

and they're fun to look at, you know?

They are really cute.

I mean, also just like, I am a huge French car apologist,

so I will 100% support you saying the French cars are good.

Did you see any of those?

Well, you were over there?

I did.

I did not get a chance to get a picture of it

because it was pouring rain

because I was walking to the Eiffel Tower

and like the sky opened unexpectedly.

I stopped at a cafe to have, actually, okay.

So last episode, I just got back from my European trip.

I had never really traveled overseas before.

I went to Glasgow last year, but it was just briefly.

And then this year, like I actually did like a little,

like you know, baby's first Europe trip kind of thing.

And I kind of got culture shock coming back

because like transit works better over there.

There's a lot of aspects of like the streets

are a lot more walkable,

the cities feel a lot more vibrant.

There's not as much like people.

You can just kind of go hang out.

There's not like the same kind of like anti-loitering

sort of shit that we have in the US.

There's like things stay open later.

There's just like, it felt,

there was a lot of stuff that I just deeply enjoyed

as like some, just like living and as, you know,

being in one of the cities there

in kind of like the middle of everything

felt like much more lively

than a lot of American cities I've been in.

And then I flew back and I got into Philadelphia

and they had ice everywhere

and TSA didn't work and I missed my flight

because our society is crumbling.

And I was like, damn it.

So I'm, what I'm curious about is do you,

do you get a similar, like obviously, you know,

last episode I had a full disclaimer about like,

I'm aware Europe is not a magical wonderland.

There's a lot of, there's a lot of shit wrong there.

And I think that for the most part

I'm pretty aware of stuff like that in China.

But do you get the same kind of like gut instinct

when you come back from like a trip to China

where you're like, damn, I miss being able to get

a bullet train and be in another city in three hours.

Yes, absolutely.

Like for me, it was like the cost of food.

You know, I get back home.

You know, I'm not used to like paying,

it was so nice paying like, you know,

$2 for a big-ass bowl of noodles.

Or even once again, like, you know,

going back to the EV stuff, you know,

electric vehicle life in so much of China

is like so ubiquitous, you know.

There are charging stations everywhere,

most of the cars on the roads, or not most,

I'd say like a solid half,

especially in like the big cities,

our green-plated, you know, new energy vehicles,

which means they're P-Hev or EV.

And it just seems like, you know,

people are making this thing work

and nobody's really complaining.

Yeah.

You know, versus here, every time I talk about an EV,

everyone's like, oh, what happens if we're not in charge?

Like the cars are not rechargeable, you know.

What happens if you're right out of gas?

Like, I always just, I'm like,

I don't know, fuck, plug it in.

Damn.

Like you gotta go through the entire battery pack

and pop in new double A's.

Right, right, right, right.

But I just think about stuff like that

and like, you know, how we could make things

like that happen here, but we don't.

And that's the frustrating part.

Yeah, that was very much my feeling

kind of when I came back from Europe is like,

you know, obviously like politically,

things are still a mess,

but at least from like an infrastructure

and sort of like built environment level,

there are things that work perfectly fine

that I've been told for my whole life are impossible,

like denser housing or like subway lines

that are like bored a little bit deeper

or, you know, heavy rail in a city.

Like there's all these things that are just like

very low hanging fruit from like a political perspective

that we could embrace if we just had not

told ourselves it was impossible.

And I figured it's gotta be similar there

with that kind of stuff.

Obviously like everything else is, you know,

I know socially, I know enough like trans girls

in China to know that it's not like, you know.

Yeah.

That's my constant prayer on this show is Chairman Xi,

please get cool about trans women real fast.

Right, right.

That's, yeah.

I can't move there because once again,

I got suggested a raft of videos

from that Australian guy who I think lives

in Hong Kong now who just reviews Chinese cigarettes.

And I don't think he's ever once said

that the cigarette was bad,

but the amount of flavors they have,

I just go,

That's funny, that's actually one of my biggest gifts

when I go, cause I don't smoke.

But when I come, every time I go to Asia,

I always like bring my smoker's friend,

my smoker friend's like a carton,

because it's so cheap there,

like you can get a whole carton at duty free

for like $18.

Uh-huh.

Yeah.

Just get cool about trans girls

and I will be on the first flight.

We have a bunch of modesty tech.

It's no big deal.

I'll ride at a co-back.

They seem fine.

They seem like they're planes.

I don't know.

You're right, right.

I just, I, it's, yeah, that was the food.

Food being like good and cheap was,

I haven't been to China,

but for whatever reason,

before I went to Japan in 2019,

a bunch of people are like,

well, make sure you have like enough budgeted

for food and not just everything else.

And then I undershot my food budget by like 50%.

I was just like, I don't,

where were you all eating?

Like I, like, I don't know.

I was just kind of eating really excellent food

and paying like US three dollars.

Some people go to Asia

and they want to eat Western food,

which is so weird to me.

No.

It's actually funny

because sometimes the car brands that'll fly me out

is like, would you like Western food?

And I'm like,

I didn't fly all that way for that.

So, no.

It's like, I came from the Western food place.

Like, why would I do that?

Like I'm going to be home in a few days.

Like please, please skin meat,

like actual Chinese food.

And it's always great.

I, I did try barbecue,

like American style barbecue in Japan.

But that was because at a bar the previous night,

when I told them that I was visiting from Texas,

a bunch of people all were just like,

bunch of drunk salary men were just being like,

the love that Germans and the Japanese have

for Texas always blew me away

when I was traveling for like press trips or whatever.

Yeah.

With a bunch of these salary men were like,

we have, it is real Texas barbecue.

And I'm like, I will trust you

because one, I have gotten very drunk with you men.

So I will do whatever at this point that you suggest

because like, do you want to go to karaoke?

Do you want to do it right now?

But yeah, other than that, I was just like,

a bunch of my friends when they go overseas,

they're like, I want to try the American fast food there.

And I'm like, that is maybe for the airport.

Maybe.

You know what's crazy, I do have one exception though.

When I go to China, I always get KFC

because China's KFC is elite.

And it's so funny, I was talking to,

I think somebody who worked at Geely

is like, yeah, I went to the US to try KFC there.

It was horrible.

And I'm like, yeah, that's kind of like

an allegory for the US car industry.

I said, I said last episode, I was just like,

we split the world into two after the Second World War

and it was America, but better or America,

but slightly shame.

It really is.

I remember I was going on a high speed train

to look at a car factory for Neo

and we stopped somewhere and kind of like rule is China.

And I was like, damn, this feels like West Virginia.

And I'm like, these guys are eating KFC

and driving Buick mini vans and with Starbucks.

I'm like, this is Ohio.

This is Ohio.

Was this the trip where you posted

a bunch of pictures of the U-bodies?

Yeah, because I wrote in a couple.

I wrote in a couple like, yeah, Buick vans

is they're super popular there still.

Which is so funny to me

because that was like the car I got my driver's permit in.

It was a Chevrolet, it wasn't a Buick,

but it was the U-Body mini van.

Yeah, I think that's also the trip.

Maybe it was a different trip

where they had the drift U-Body that some guy had made.

Yes, yes.

Yo.

Yeah, they had a long, low-based U-Body

that they put a 2JZN.

God, I'm not high.

Inventing new levels of dude rockin'.

Literally.

The American State Department will never convince me

that these people are my enemy.

Literally, because like I was literally,

it also kind of put me at ease as I'm like,

oh my God, what's this country like?

And I'm like, is that a 2JZN and a fuckin' transport?

Sorry.

Just immediately, just, I, we,

we are one people and we didn't even have

to drop the Chinese characteristics.

Exactly, exactly.

We are one people in this world

who all love throwing a 2J in something

a 2JZ should not be in.

Oh, well, I wanna ask you, Kevin.

Is there anything that we didn't discuss

that you would like to talk about?

Um, I don't know.

I think, watch this space.

I got some big things coming.

I'll be, hopefully I'll be in China again.

Hell yeah.

Gonna be there probably for anywhere from a week or so,

for a week or so.

I'll be there for the Beijing Auto Show, I think.

Hell yeah.

And then I'm gonna drive some cool cars.

Sweet, have you been to the Beijing Auto Show before?

Yeah, that was actually the first time,

the first piece that we referenced.

That was when I went to Beijing.

Right, right, right.

Yeah, I just, the Beijing Auto Show

is kind of one of the big auto shows

that like has survived and like thrived

over the last couple of years.

Did you feel like it is taking more

of an international presence in that way?

Yes, I think both Beijing and Shanghai,

it's because like, you know, the sheer market,

China's car market is almost as big

as the United States now.

Maybe it's surpassed, I can't think it off the top of my head.

But because of just that sheer momentum,

China is going to be a taste maker and trendsetter.

So, you know, what happens in China

will eventually happen around the world, you know?

Yeah.

In some form or fashion.

Let me get the little cowboy hat of old con guys,

their cars.

I do too.

I wish we had more stuff like that.

I wish Neo came to the United States.

I know they still have a San Francisco office.

They're the guys who do the battery swapping,

which I think is actually really, really bad.

The battery swapping, but real?

Yeah.

Yeah, I think they've done like, I think 90, 100,

I think they just crossed 100 million swaps

that they've done.

Wow.

Well, boy.

I thought you were about to say 100,000.

100 million.

That's really good.

Yeah, cause like, they use that as an alternative

to charging, especially in China.

And also if you do the battery,

if you opt into the battery swap program,

you basically get a huge discount on the car.

Like almost 10 grand or sometimes more than 10 grand.

Wow.

Is it because you don't technically own the battery?

Correct.

I mean,

I'm okay with, you know, I'm okay with that.

Cause like, you know, I asked was like, well,

how do you guys, they basically said they,

they assure that every battery is going to be

in good health, whatever that means.

And you'll always get one that's like charged up to 93%.

And then like as, as the batteries age or wear out,

if there's a mechanical problem with them,

they take them out of circulation.

Well, and like that's such a, that's such a good fit

for like what we've been doing in the States

with like recycling batteries,

where basically like at the end of the life,

you use them as storage because you,

they don't, they don't like heat cycle great.

And they're not like maybe at their top performance,

but they still store power decently well.

And so then you don't have to worry about like,

oh, we have this whole car around it.

We have to throw away.

You just have to worry about like,

that's such a great way to like reduce waste from like,

which is like, you know, a potential downside of EVs.

It's like the battery fully integrated into the frame.

And also, I think the, I think the batteries themselves

are also like slow charged.

They basically, they were a little funny about it.

Cause it's like, it's almost proprietary,

it's a proprietary system.

Cause it's basically like a logistics, you know,

problem, right?

But like they basically say, oh yeah, we,

we can tailor the needs of charging for the batteries

when they're out of the car based on local demand.

So it's like, I get the gist of like,

these batteries aren't fast charged when they come out,

which is nice.

And then also like you can upgrade sizes.

Like, like for example,

if you bought the smaller battery,

like I only need one for the city.

But if you wanted to go on a longer trip,

they have like a lease only, you know,

big battery that you can rent for longer trips,

which is nifty, you know?

Yeah, it's extremely cool.

Yeah.

That also like solves a lot of like people's range anxiety.

I feel like really rapidly,

cause you not only can you get a bigger battery,

but also you can have it swapped

in probably like what, 10 minutes?

Five.

Actually three.

I timed it.

I literally, I timed it was three, it was three.

Okay, well, I'm going to return.

I'm just going to title this episode,

Squidward watching SpongeBob and Patrick

out of the bedroom window.

Yeah.

I mean, when they, when they had me do the

five battery stuff, cause I've done it a couple of times.

I was like, wow, that was so,

I just felt stupid, you know?

I was like, we're, like we're so far behind.

I was like, cause you know,

cause I really thought like, oh, they're lying.

Like it's not the big of a deal

or it's going to be like, you know,

there's like kayfabe or what like, you know,

fake, fake show that they're going to show us.

And like, no, they actually do that.

Yeah.

It's in like what Tesla showed off the,

the Jiffy loop that was a fake battery swap

like 10 years ago and then nothing ever happened.

Like we're just, it's all,

being an American who knows anything

about what happens in other countries

does feel like we're being punked constantly.

Where it's just like, are we big?

Are we Truman showed for the rest of the world

but we have a gun for something like,

like we've got a big gun pointed at everyone else.

But yet we're getting shadowed on the wall.

Like we're getting played okay the entire time.

Saying like, no, no, no, no, those things are real.

No, no, no, no, no, no.

Oh, well, I will say, I look forward,

I don't use Instagram, but I do look forward

to Kevin sending me videos from China

because he just texted them to me

and I always love seeing those.

I'm sure you post a lot of those in your Instagram

so I'll post that so you can keep up

with him when he's in Beijing.

And you still on TikTok?

You still doing that?

Every now and again, I'm still there.

Okay.

Yeah, I'm still there.

I'm GaytonaUSA everywhere.

Yeah, which is an all-time username.

Yeah, sometimes I wish I had picked a more professional one

but you know what, I can't, it's whatever.

We're here.

It's gonna get you so far.

Like I'm gonna be honest,

I think 60% of the goodwill of our show

is just having a good name.

Like it'll, the right people will find you

with the right name.

Also, I do think that like you having GaytonaUSA,

that's being trend girlies,

but if we ever get to do like the queer top gear

we've all always wanted,

you should be third host for it.

We can go drive cars around in China.

I'd love that.

I'd love that a lot.

Undo the damage that Clarkson and Faye did years ago

for the Chinese market.

Supposedly I guess they went back for Grand Tour

but I don't know and I don't care.

I know.

I don't know why.

They seem like, I think they ate crow.

I think so actually.

Yeah, I think they got so good so fast.

But nobody was watching at that point,

so it didn't matter.

Yeah, I can't watch car media anymore.

Everyone gets in my nerves.

I get it.

The only person who doesn't at this point is catch pull

and he is the only guy I can like stand

to watch million dollar things

because he's tall, British, lanky and handsome

and I unfortunately have one type of man I'm into

because I have brain problems

and watch Doctor Who at an impressionable age

when David Tennant was the doctor.

So, like this forever.

Yeah, but you can also,

Kevin's obviously always writing for inside EVs

and I highly recommend his stories because they are,

again, genuinely, he is, I think at this point

just my favorite working autojournalist

and I say journalist with like, you know, the big J on it

because I worked as an autojournalist

and like occasionally I would do a story

that was like kind of real

but a lot of it was like I was a writer.

I did like a lot of personal narratives or whatever.

Those are obviously, you know,

that was my strong suit or whatever

but Kevin actually does like real reporting.

He doesn't do good personal narratives too

but like when I think of his stuff

he does like actual reporting

where he goes places, critically reviews things,

knows an absolute fuck ton.

So I really recommend his coverage.

So please go read him on inside of these

and then also, you know,

and watch him in the future on the,

the trend girlies motop gear China special.

Kevin, is there anything that you want to plug

that we have missed plug in here?

No, I don't think so right now.

Well, I think this is an episode.

Yeah, absolutely.

Victoria, we have a thing to plug actually.

Oh, shit. Yeah.

Well, I was going to put it in the advertisement.

Oh, the shirts?

I was going to talk about the shirts now,

but yeah. That's fair.

We probably should mention the shirts.

You can get it.

You can get a trend girlies moti shirt.

They're up, they're pre-order until March 20th

or April 20th.

April 20th.

I can't figure out dates today

until April 20th because ha ha funny number.

We also have bumper stickers that are car rated

so you can slap that shit on the back

with the worst vehicle you own for the bit.

I also did relaunch my prints.

So I've got my 11 by 17 series of art,

fine art prints from the early 2020s of my van

that you can now purchase numbered and signed prints

of those if you feel like it.

But mostly it's for the trend girlies mot stuff.

Yeah, Kevin, it was so awesome having you on.

It was, I feel like we can talk a lot

about the Chinese car market,

but we've never driven any of these products

because of the aluminum curtain

that has been drawn over the millions.

So I would like to, I would just like to thank you

for coming on and talking to us because I know it is a,

it is a thing that is,

you have been on the forefront of for a while

because this is a thing that is like,

this is the smartphone moment with cars, I think.

And it's kind of like anyone who's not treating it as such.

I think it's like just kind of lying to their audience.

Like, I don't know, like these cars all rock.

They're not smoking mirrors.

They all rock.

We'll see about their long-term reliability or whatever,

but like other than that, like.

Yeah, I would agree.

I agree.

Thank you so much for having me.

I appreciate it.

Yeah!

Episode 10: We Live On The Wrong Side Of The Lithium Curtain [With Guest Kevin Williams]

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