Tired: The Car Podcast For People Who Understand That Cars Are Bad Mar 19, 2026

Episode 111: The Contradictions Inherent to Honda

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Car

Honda Zero

Honda Zero is a type of electric motorcycle made by Honda. It runs on electricity instead of gas and is designed for city riding.

Car

Honda RSX

The Honda RSX is a small sporty car made by Honda that many people liked because it was fun to drive and easy to fix. It was made mostly in the early 2000s and is still popular with car fans.

Concept

saloon

A saloon is a type of car that has separate areas for the engine, people inside, and the trunk. In the US, it's usually called a sedan.

Car

The Honda Celestiq is a fancy and cool-looking car that Honda showed off to show what a future car might look like. It was special because it looked different and was meant to be a luxury electric car.

Term

halo car

A halo car is a special car that a company makes to show off how good they are. It helps people think better about all their cars.

Term

EV

An EV is a car that runs on electricity instead of gas. It uses batteries to move instead of an engine that burns fuel.

Concept

canceling a car project

Sometimes car companies decide not to finish making a new car because it might cost too much or not sell well. This is called canceling the project.

Term

e.v.

An electric vehicle, or E.V., is a car that runs on electricity instead of gas. It helps reduce pollution and can be charged at home or special stations.

Brand

Lamborghini

Lamborghini is a company that makes very fast and fancy sports cars. They are known for their cool designs and powerful engines.

Term

tax credit

A tax credit is money the government gives back to people when they buy certain things, like electric cars, to help make them cheaper.

Concept

charging infrastructure

Charging infrastructure means the places where electric cars can plug in to get more power, like gas stations but for electricity.

Concept

self-driving

Self-driving means a car can drive itself without a person needing to steer or control it, using special computers and cameras to see and move around.

Term

batteries

Batteries are like big rechargeable power packs that give electric cars the energy they need to drive.

Concept

oil congealing

When oil gets really cold, it can get thick and sticky, making it harder for the engine to work smoothly when you start the car.

Term

crankcase

The crankcase is like a container inside the engine where important parts move around and where the oil sits to keep everything running smoothly.

Concept

fuel costs

Fuel costs are the money you pay to fill your car with gas or diesel so it can run.

Concept

Formula 1 (F1)

Formula 1, or F1, is a type of car racing with very fast and special cars that race on circuits around the world.

Concept

classic F1

Classic F1 means the old days of Formula 1 racing when the cars and tracks were different from today. People who like classic F1 enjoy watching and talking about those older races and cars.

Concept

Sebring

Sebring is a race track in Florida where people race cars for a long time, like 12 hours. The track is bumpy and tough, so it tests how strong the cars and drivers are.

Part

Sparco Terra wheels

Sparco Terra wheels are special car wheels made by a company called Sparco. People use them to replace their regular wheels, often to make their car look cooler or handle better, especially in winter.

Term

cast aluminum

Cast aluminum means the metal is melted and poured into a shape to make parts like wheels. These wheels can be heavier and not as strong as other types.

Term

forged aluminum

Forged aluminum means the metal is heated and squeezed really hard to make it stronger and lighter. This makes wheels tougher and better for driving.

Term

metal fatigue

Metal fatigue happens when metal gets tired and weak because it's been bent or stressed many times. Wheels can get cracks or break because of this.

Term

alignment

Alignment means making sure your car's wheels point the right way so it drives straight and doesn't wear out the tires too fast.

Part

wheel bearing

The wheel bearing is a part that helps your car's wheels spin easily without making noise or getting stuck. If it gets damaged, your car might make weird sounds or not drive smoothly.

Term

front suspension

The front suspension is the part of your car that helps smooth out bumps in the road and keeps the front wheels steady.

Car

Honda Accord

The Honda Accord is a well-known car that many people use because it is dependable and easy to drive for everyday trips.

Term

torsional stiffness

Torsional stiffness is how much a car’s body resists twisting when you drive. If it’s stiff, the car feels more solid and handles better. If it’s less stiff, the car might feel a bit loose or wobbly.

Term

fuel efficient

Fuel efficient means a car doesn't use much gas to go far. This helps save money and is better for the planet.

Term

smart packaging

Smart packaging means designing a car so that even though it's small, it feels roomy inside and can carry a lot of stuff. The Honda Fit does this really well.

Term

core competency

Core competency means what a company is really good at. For Honda, it's making certain types of cars that people like and trust.

LIVE

it was just like it was it was like 20 screen caps of of just like headlines

From from like 20, you know, like like I mean literally dozens of different news sources and outlets about

About this election about the fact that this election was was happening

And the lead in every single one

Was was something to the effect of you know

You know

While Vietnam does, you know, hold elections. They are a one-party system, you know in which the blah blah blah blah blah

and

But but it's like but every single start. I mean it was verbatim. Yeah, yeah, and I mean this

I mean, it's like I mean, they were literally like 40 or 50

Different, you know, where it shows you just like, you know, the headline and then just like the first, you know

Three or four lines of the story and and they're all just verbatim

Identical, you know, and it's not like it's like from the AP or something, you know, it's right

It's like they're all different stories from different news sources with just like the the exact same

It's it is funny. That is how I would describe it. Um, I yeah, I

Free press love it. Gotta love it. Love having a free press. I am I did I did I did have a car topic

to discuss today if

Nah, I don't know

What's up? Why would we do that? What's our show?

Yeah, oh, oh tired

Tired the the car podcast for people to understand the cars are bad with your friends Maddie Rory and me Peter

What's what's your car? What's your car car topic Rory report Rory? I wanted to talk about the

Honda zero

Over has there been developments on the whole we have a zero front

Yeah, Honda canceled all of the

Yeah, they had

What did this happen last week?

Well, I guess I was distracted

I wasn't watching the car news feed as closely as they typically do

And I was like, uh-oh

Wow RIP and I think I did unfortunate timing for Honda. I would submit I

Um, I think I I think we did talk about my prediction for this happening. I I think you may have called this one Rory

Yeah, maybe we can clip that

But uh, yeah the RSX gone and both

Oh, that's that's even that was just like that was the the SUV that we just talked about like a few weeks ago

mm-hmm and the

zero

SUV and saloon also also dead deal. Oh

RIP man. I I really wanted to fucking see that

That zero saloon that thing looked so genuinely fucking radical and cool man, and I was I was excited

Guess I guess that's one of those. I guess I mean, it's not surprising because it did seem like

Kind of a bridge too far in terms of just like that would have been a really shocking

Vehicle to actually see on the road. Yeah, they're in and the reality is is you are not gonna be seeing a lot of those

Whoops

Will not be seeing any of them. Yeah, I mean you wouldn't have I think had they built it but

Well, I mean I have I mean look I've seen a celestic at this point true

Yeah, so I mean not you know

I mean at a race and and then like driving on the street like leaving as it was leaving the race

But but you did see one but I did see one on the road, you know, it was it was in the wild. It wasn't like

I'm

Displayer, right exactly. So so I have I have seen that and which

You know

So, yeah, but yeah, yeah, so they announced it last week the auto auto journalists are

Very upset about this

which I don't

understand

Necessarily the rationale for that I guess would be a way to say it. I think they're disappointed. They're disappointed like me

It is disappointing. I but they're mad. I think because they think it's strategically a bad move

Which I would have to very strenuously disagree with

I don't know man. I think I mean for at least for in the case of that that that

the zero

Was so was saloon. Was that the actual name of it? Yeah

in the case of that I

I think that that car was so

I mean, it would have been like microscopic numbers

Um, but it would have served as as just like like a halo car, you know for honda

And I think that would have been that would have been cool and good

And it wouldn't have I mean they already fucking spent the money to develop it

So it's like you're not all using much by by by building it. No, there's there's a lot more money left. I mean there's really

Yeah, yeah, there was there was a long way to go. I thought it was pretty close to to

To production. I thought we were supposed to see it later this year. I mean we talked about that too. That was a 2026, you know

I mean, but that's a huge like bringing a car. That was that was on our death pool

I mean that that was on our we that was the thing that the thing that we did was we went through all those cars and we predicted

Um, uh, which ones would would would make it to market. Did we um, I don't remember what the verdict was on that one

We'll have to clip it

The

The thing of it is and I think like that the

I don't know enough about this to do like a proper postmortem like I don't

And I think like a lot of the commentary on this too. It's like this is one of those things

We're as a

Journalist and I need to be very careful the way I say this is um

I've gotten myself trouble for talking about this before but I think like as a journalist unless you are

Up to your fucking neck in investigating this thing, which no automotive journalist is that I'm aware of you don't really have

That much of an idea about what's going on with it. So I think like

There are cases where

In terms of its viability as is in the marketplace or no no just in terms of like what's happening behind the scenes at the car company

Okay, so it's like yeah, we and I think like I had

Is probably as good at access to this as a lot of other people did or or most people

I think like I went to the the executive round tables

I got the behind the scenes tours of the factory like I've met all the people who were working on it got to ask questions like

In like I got a sense that there was like a lot of confusion around it and a lot of kind of disagreement

And I also like got a sense that like

That maybe it wouldn't happen

Especially earlier this year when that drive got cancelled for it last minute. Yep, but I think the

The

The halo car thing here is interesting. I think generally like I like a halo car like the idea of a halo car

But it's like to me the the zero saloon

And again, it's like this is a lot of the speculation and a lot of it is like

A lot of the reporting or reaction to this is just speculation too, but it's like um

If you were to say we are taking honda

In a new direction an entirely new direction

That is up market. It's got all these different

Kind of parameters and kind of understanding what the honda brand is then I think like

Zero and the the suv makes sense as a halo car to like drive in that direction

But it was not not clear to me at any point that honda was driving in that direction aside from that car

So it's like the what would be the like in a in a halo situation you would hope that there would be like a follow on

effect

Across the rest of honda that would be that would be kind of signal like some new kind of brand strategy or something or or like

Yeah, and also like from a technological standpoint and from a

From a

Engineering standpoint styling standpoint, whatever it's like some of that would trickle down into the more kind of mainstream

But also like you would be able to go to your

team in japan and in the states and say like

This is where we're headed. This is what I this is representative of our thinking going forward

And it was never clear to me with either of these cards that that was the case. It's like

It seemed you know, it's like one kind of theory that I had was like hey look honda felt like they were way behind

Um on ev stuff and they had to have a moonshot

To catch up and they had to like

They had to kind of engineer their way into a moonshot

Meaning like use their incredibly talented engineers and like to build something that was really like state-of-the-art

um, but I think like it

Like if you're not like I said if that's not what the company is going to be then it doesn't make sense as a halo

It doesn't make sense as an exercise and it's also like especially if you're looking at the market and saying like

There's no way in hell this thing is going to sell like we're not going to get our money back on this and it's like

What do you do?

I mean, it's like with this stuff too. It's like by the time you make the

decision to cancel it

It's like the it's a bad decision the better decision would have been to cancel it a year ago. You know, whatever

Yeah, so it's like

It's like wow. Fuck it just keeps getting worse. Yeah. No, it's yeah. No, it's it's it's just that thing of like

You know at what point do you cut your losses?

I mean, we see, you know, I mean

There's been so much

funny back and forth lately

with with that kind of stuff because lamborghini just

Just shit canned their forthcoming e.v. That kind of

sport ute kind of like wedgie sport ute kind of thing

Which which I think is too bad because that that was actually a pretty cool looking vehicle. I thought

But um, but that's not going to happen

For months we had been hearing that

the

portion nine

Sorry, portion seven 18 the baxter came in

Replacement which was going to be full e.v. And then, you know, initially like for years, you know was was was e.v.

Evv only we're you know, we swear to god. We're only doing an e.v. Of this, you know

And then and then like in the last year it's become, you know, pretty obvious that it's like, oh, no

Well, there's gonna there'll be a there'll be an ice and an e.v. Version

And then and then like more recently it's been like, oh, maybe you'll maybe we won't even do an e.v.

Maybe it'll just be like full ice. Um

Um, although recently I feel like I just I mean, I'm I'm I've honestly lost track

Like I feel like I just recently like just like in the last week or a week and a half

Saw something that kind of flip flopped from that even, you know, or it's just like

Now ev is back on, you know, or or um, you know, we're for sure going to have an e.v. Um

It which was like

It was so recent that that it it actually made me wonder if it's a reaction to

the fact that like

To what's going on, you know, with the fucking straight up hormuz and in the fact that like

Everybody in the world is going to be paying fucking 10 or $15 a gallon a year for now

And and all those evs that everybody has been canning for the last year

May have turned out to be um

Pretty viable after all. I don't know. Well, you know, we'll see how it plays out. I mean, it's just like

Yeah, I mean, it's I mean, we've talked forever about about just like

as a man as a manufacturer

And and just given the state of the world and you know, it's like, how do you even try to plan?

If you know product product plan for for an environment, we're just like, um

Just the situation is is so dramatically different from like

Week to week and minute to minute, you know, and it's like and here we have another

You know, like like a year, you know, like a year after

Having this this kind of like tariff shock that just kind of upended the global economy

Um, we're threatened to anyways and where everybody just had to like just be like, okay, fuck it

We're not doing evs anymore. You know

And and now like like, you know, a full calendar year later, you've got like this

cataclysmic global thing unfolding where it's like

Maybe maybe we need to reconsider this

It is it is very funny because like a lot of automakers, you know, either split their political support or we're

personally, you know supportive of

Trump thing on the basis of like always going to get rid of the

regulations or whatever

But for years and years automakers have said we don't really care what the

Exact policies are they do but they would say publicly, right? We don't care what the policies are

We just care if it's stable like we need to be able to plan. It's like like just give us the rule book and we will plan for it

Right, and it's like four decades

Traditionally

That has been the function of

Yeah

But it's like um deep state. Yeah, exactly like, uh, but it's it's very

Um, it's very funny like not funny, but it's like is this what you wanted? You know what I mean?

Like is this is this uh, is this what you had in mind is like

And it's um, I don't think it is

Yeah, but it but it's

The whip-sying

Thing is funny, but it's also like

this is

Regardless of like Trump's like appetite for chaos and this stuff the the bigger thing is

And you know, I'm very hesitant to give credit to the chinese government for anything, obviously

I mean, they are very very, um, they're bad on human rights. I gotta say. Yeah, they're very oppressive. They don't um, they don't

Respect individual freedoms. Um, yeah, like your freedom to starve to death or die of

Or just even get gold medically bankrupt. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah

Um, so that all that being said the usual caveats, um, yeah

but the um the

Uh, this is a limit and I think we're seeing this

more and more of

Not just the u.s. system, but the system generally

where it's

increasingly

erratic

as resources

start to become more scarce and as

The pressures start to become kind of more acute the the system of

Economics that we have globally

Uh is

Heart is more and more erratic. It's not delivering stability. Uh in the way or predictability in the way that it it has and I think like

That's not just a function of the planning thing. It's a function of being on a quarter

It's a function of and I've been saying this for years, but it's like it's a function of of having to deliver quarterly quarterly results

it's a function of

How that limits you as far as your your long-term investment and like long-term thinking, but I think like

Yeah, it's it's the internal contradictions of capitalism

Yeah

We're reaching the the point. We are up against those

as I like to say the

The uh contradictions are becoming heightened. Uh, I said it's a little bit more folks

But it's it is it is a weird

thing though because it's like

the

And this is another topic. We've been discussing lately too, but I think like the kind of like

I don't like the tab boos around discussing that or the the

um, it's like how how do you

Even if you're an american automaker, how do you how do you talk around that? How do you like? Um,

You don't even like how do you uh

Articulate what's happening if if not for that and I guess like I don't know

It's just like a wishful thinking thing where it's like I will go back to someone who who offers a little bit more stability and then like

That's the answer to the

problem that we're like, I don't know. It's a very like I said, it's like, um

Yeah, I don't think they can

Uh, I don't I don't see anybody really trying to

And moreover, I don't think it makes any fucking difference because the entire rest of the world is

like I mean

like we're seeing this happen in real time as

You know all these these other other players other, you know, like smaller players on on the global stage

Who have traditionally looked to the us to provide that platform of stability

Which which just

The world needs in order to function just, you know economically

And and seeing that like we're we're incapable

Of providing that anymore and and so so you see you see these these countries just out of necessity

Turning to to alternatives, you know in china being like the the the most obvious one because it is you know

It's the fucking biggest economy and and you know, they've they've resisted that that kind of mantle of

of um

You know, they they don't want they don't want to be the fucking hegemon. They don't want to be you know

They don't want the fucking reserve reserve currency. You know and and but I mean, you know, you know in in

You know last few months you've you've kind of heard noises

From g that maybe you know, they'll be open to you know

Doing a kind of you know

Playing playing more of a role like you know that maybe maybe you know being reserve currency wouldn't be you know

I mean, you know, I mean china does have like uh

You know

they've been pretty good

um, I mean arguably

uh, you know, this is

like a point of

Of of contention for for many observers and even many observers on the left. Um, but um

But in my estimation, I feel like they've been very skillful at at treading the line

um between

Opening their economy allowing

There allowing a you know for there to be a capitalist sector

In their economy and for that to to operate and deliver

The the things that that capitalism is good at delivering, you know, which is you know innovation and and and and um

And you know quick advancement and and you know that that kind of like growth, you know rapid growth

And frankly like just the money like trade, you know, yeah, yeah, I mean more than more than anything else

It's like, right. Um, it's it's being

involved in

The process of turning raw materials into

Cellful goods like yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's the whole thing. It's like making fucking iPhones

Um, but doing that like allowing that to happen under this this larger umbrella of just like

It's also

It's like we are still the fucking communist party and this is still a socialist project

And we are going to fucking put very hard limitations

Uh on on you know on you know, this is going to be heavily regulated and and ultimately all of these fucking

Companies and corporate, you know, they they have to answer to

To a larger

governmental structure that is that is designed for you know to to to benefit

You know the fucking people, right? Yeah, and and and not not just

You know this this kind of uh

You know

microscopic kind of ruling class and and uh and investors

Dang Xiaoping may have had some points. I guess we're all gonna have to hand it to

Everybody's gonna have to hand it to dang. That's fine. I don't mind

I mean, so so I mean the the fact the fact that they've they've so successfully kind of treaded that line

Like the the thing with with the reserve currency is that

it's your your

When when you allow yourself to do that you you kind of expose yourself in a lot of ways and and um

And and uh

And you can

You can take advantage of it in in a lot of ways that you know that the us has and and

And as a result of that the us finds itself where it it does now

Um, but that's so that's like um, I think though to your point about stability though

Like that's exactly it is like we did we have fumbled the ball on exactly the mechanisms that we use

By being the reserve currency like we for the longest time we were maintaining a uh horrific but

consistent balance with our sanctions regimes against places like uh, Iran and

Now that we have flipped to know actually we're going to come in and we want to start muscling you around

I mean same with venezuela like that is a

massive change and a massive signal to the rest of the world and all those smaller countries like you're talking about

Everyone else sees that we are not

We are no longer playing like carrot and stick

We are just hitting you with a bat and like that can't like everyone was willing

I think put up with a little bit of like well, they're gonna hit that guy with a stick

But I do get the carrot so like maybe it's okay and now it's like oh no no no no no

But also I mean the classic thing with fucking sanctions is that like

those work when you're when you're like

selectively punishing

you know

Bad behavior like you know people who are who are out of line with what you know what you deem to be bad behavior

That you that you need to discipline

But when you're fucking doing it to half of the fucking planet

You're incentivizing all of those people

to be like

Hey, you know, I mean, it's like the thing with russia, you know, it's like we're fucking when

You know when russia finally goes into ukraine and it's like okay. We're we're gonna take them off of fucking

You know, what's what's the the swift or whatever?

It's like oh wow, how is russia going to fucking survive they can't they can't uh,

You know, they can no longer participate in in the global economy

Well russia has like a fucking shit ton of resources that the

The rest of the world needs and they're gonna fucking find a way to get it without you know like

Outside, I mean you are you are you are actually, you know by sanctioning you are you are forcing them to develop

Systems outside of of the ones that you've established and that have benefited you for fucking you know

Like a century or whatever you create a reason for that to be a whole system of transactions without us dollar nexus

No, you I mean, it's just you it's just like you've overplayed your hand

just like in a

In a very fundamental way and I I don't think um, I don't know. I mean it's just

I feel like yeah, it's just it's the contradictions. It's it's it's the the the the drive the need for for just infinite

growth that that capitalism demands

Forces you to

You know at at at a certain point overplay your hand in in that way

Yeah, I I guess too like what I'm kind of trying to get to is

the

If you're an american car maker

um hoping to like continue uh or like but maybe expand or whatever it's like

How do you

Or even I would say like a western, you know, like even even the chairman's probably have to be thinking about this too

but it's like, um

You you're looking at china you're looking at china. It's like very rapid advancement in

car making and like being able to like to

kind of

you know

probably like a level of

advancement and also like

Activity that has not been seen globally since

The early turn of the 20th century

And you're like, well, why can't we do that?

Why don't we have that and it's like well because like your system is fundamentally schizophrenic like there's like, um

there's just there's um

Again, there's like these these hard limits in it. Um, and it's like, you know

China with the ev thing. I think it's so instructive because it's like

It's like the way that they did it and the way that they made those investments before it was profitable before it was going to

Be profitable before it even made sense and then just kind of like kept their foot on the gas or

Accelerator, ha ha ha if you want to do that

the entire time

it's like, um

You could you can't do that and like America right now in the west is kind of finding out that you can't do that and it's like

The the thing of it is like the ev thing for whatever

environmental benefits there are to it for whatever

whatever

Other kind of touchy-feely. This is good for the world type of benefits

the um

They are cheaper to make and they are like more profitable on a buy car basis

Like if you can get to scale with them like there are just fewer parts and they're easier to put together and they're they're

They're more versatile. They're easier to maintain like it is a good

You know, I can remember like being in a room, uh with mark rice talking about this

10 years ago now or whatever and he was like these the thing is he's like our margins are going to be so much better and it was like

Regardless of what you feel about the cars like the margins are like this is a business

Yeah thing it's like fewer workers fewer factories fewer parts like it's a win across the board and it's like

You can't do it. You just can't do it and it's like how many things

Are like that now, you know what I mean where it's just like

Sorry like the the the limits of why couldn't they do it?

Because they were not short term profitable and that's that's the they couldn't get they couldn't get support to make it happen

so it's like

the the

Long term thinking in the united states would have had to have been

We're subsidizing these things at the point of sale not not a tax credit for rich people. Yep. We are

Building infrastructure. We're putting chargers every five miles everywhere in the fucking country

This is a 10. This is a 10 year project. Yep, and and it's going to cost a lot of money, right? But the thing is it's like

the the

fact that like our bridges are collapsing in the united states is not

Is not

Like that is a systemic thing like that's not that is not a that is not a political problem

That is a systemic. This is the system. This is what the system is doing and it's like

Or is what it does and it's like it's it's a strange thing and I feel like there's there's this

You know the the system that we have in the united states was almost perfect for

development between like the 1800s and the

The 20th and going into the 20th century like you really couldn't have asked

For a better system to make that stuff happen. You know what I mean? Like that it was it was perfect and like

uh, I mean obviously imperfect in a lot of terrible outcomes, but as far as like as far as like

Where we were technology wise where we were capacity wise like what?

What um

Kind of needed to happen in terms in terms of just of just developing an industrial base. You know, it's like yeah

That's it. That's that's the shit that set us up to

you know

To be the global head to yeah to to fucking you know

Yeah, I don't want I don't want got to be careful

Not say that we that you know that we won world war two, but um, we certainly came out of it better than anybody else

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah

What whether someone else won it for us and uh, we got all the benefit of it

Easy case to make

All the work that we came in and we pride all the guys out from one of their boots and say we want this guy

Actually, we'll take that. I'll take this guy. We're gonna have this guy make us rockets. Thank you. Bye. Yeah, I mean

Yeah, and also just the fact that we never got bombed or invaded. I mean you think that was you're just so much

Well, that's yeah, exactly the world's reindustrializing the accident a geography that that has made us um,

Yeah, so but but the point the point of that is is like

There's there's it was like I said this this kind of

Really did everything I needed to do

Uh, but now you're running up against these these kind of hard limits

And it's like is as much now too is like American automakers have taken an interest in what the chinese are doing

You have to wonder if they're looking at that being like, huh?

Like why can't we do that and it's like it is also like what we were talking about earlier today

It's like you wonder like

I mean, I don't know being being an auto executive in the united states is like a very tight little box to be in

As far as like what you're even allowed to think about because like

you know, it's like

Let alone talk about or talking about

You're not getting like like a lot of like

intellectually well rounded

super cultured

No, I mean, I do I do know those those types of auto executives like those people do exist

But I think like they're also in the position that they're in

because they're very

clear about what the

Frontiers of what's possible in their job is and it's like I think like

The getting to that level in a major corporation America

Is is always about what is what is possible where you can be successful like in the

In the window, you know, I mean that you're that you're operating and so it's not about like

Thinking the biggest thoughts are being like like a revolutionary in any sense of the word. So I think like

But again, it's like you do have to wonder like this better exposure to this long term thinking and long term planning

It's like man, that would be nice. Like that would be really nice to have a 15 year plan

Uh, I don't think they would want to like top down. They would they don't want to be taking orders

They certainly don't want to be held accountable in the way that Chinese executives are held accountable

God, no, uh, but it's like if you want to if you want a model of stability and you want a model of

Of predictability, I mean, I think like that's the proofs in the pudding with with with the last 10 15 years of development in china

um, and it's I don't know it's really like

I cannot

It's like whatever like publicly or privately if they were car executives or car companies that were like in favor of the trump

administration

2023 2024

for

Uh, they certainly are not now. I mean, this is got this is this for whatever you benefit you get from deregulation. This has got to be

the hardest

Most frenetic environment to operate in as a business period like yeah, especially at a business at that that scale

It's got to be just absolutely maddening

Well, and I feel like I feel like what's

I feel like what's coming in the next 12 months

I'm just going to be so much worse. I mean, it's like

I mean, that's a it's a perfect example. It's like, okay, uh, give us basically the permission structure

to eliminate all of our ev development

And like give us also no no reason to continue it. We're not supporting infrastructure. We're not supporting

The tax breaks we're all to the staff and then it's like, oh by the way gas is going to be a $10 a gallon. It's like like

Because because of something we could not even tell you were like we were not even planning to do this six months ago

Like you know what I mean? It's like we just decided a couple days ago to do this

and now it's gonna

but it

And it's like I don't know. I don't want to make this a whole like uh, oh trump's the chaos guy or whatever

but it the my bigger thing is just like

And I

As we've talked about it's like a lot of other people have talked about too like the trump chaos thing is like it is

Just like the inability to fix bridges just like the inability to plan ahead just like the inability to like stick to

um to to whatever

at your company

it's like, um

This is part and parcel of this is how this works. You know what I mean? Like this is what it is expressing itself

exactly

Uh logically, you know what I mean? Like it's not broken. It's just this is what it does and it's like

Yeah

and it's like

But it's like what what comes after that? What do you you know what I mean? Like what is the

That's a really interesting thing. I you know, it's like you would never in a million years

Be able to have a deep enough conversation with somebody with decision-making power to get the answer to that question

Or like is that even being thought about or what the?

But it is it is it's something I spent a lot of time thinking about you know what I mean?

Like if you're if you're in charge of american honda, you're in charge of general motors or whatever

It's got to be uh, I don't know or maybe they don't think about it at all

Maybe it's just like okay, like we're just going to operate

You know like we'll we will wipe the slate clean every day and and operate from a new set of assumptions and

And just keep going which again. It's like maybe

That's how you become the um the car executive. I think like

There are also car executives who it's like having the the memory of a of a gold fish

Well, like a defensive back where it's like yep, that was fucked up. All right. What are we doing tomorrow? Like

but I think the uh

We you know, I know car executives. I've talked to

At length who like are very smart people who I know know a lot of the same stuff and think about a lot of the same

Stuff that I think about yeah, but they also know that they're being a car executives depend on them

Never thinking about that out loud or like discussing it out loud

It's like because like a lot of which is bizarre. I mean it's just like

Because I mean those those thoughts

I mean are natural. Yeah, that's it. Well, it's not just natural, but they're they're fucking important

I mean, I feel like

Like this moment. It's just it's just you know, uh

Case in point. Yeah, I mean if you do think about this stuff

On a corporate level

You might be better prepared to to respond to it. You know and you might you might have have

You know, you might have a long-term plan

um, you might develop a strategy that that you know of of

Somehow balancing

You know the needs for kind of you know short-term stuff to keep the fucking investors happy over here

While you're also building a kind of long-term

Plan over here, you know towards towards, you know, I mean and I would say to profitability, you know

I would say like that is what

It looked like in the gm level like that is what they were doing pre trump with like they're making a ton of investments and

in um self-driving and an e-v and like in a bunch of other stuff batteries and whatever

And it just got wiped off the table

but

And I but that's a mistake. I mean, it's it's it's it's it's a strategic mistake to just to just go like

Oh, we don't have to worry about any of that now

Because well because it's like those changes

Those changes aren't permanent

to quote

To quote the rush song

Yeah, but the change is

The whip sighing thing probably is it's probably a um the future of the next several years, but I think the

I don't know. I mean, I I guess like

I I think like I said, I think like part of the reason why you get a job like that

Is not thinking too deeply about is there a systemic problem?

With the government in the united states or with the the financial or like economic system of the west like I think that's like

That's too big of a question for a car executive to grapple with

Uh, even if it is very important to their continued survival

As companies but

I don't know. It's like a it's like, you know, it's like another kind of uh system

I think a contradiction inherent inherent in the system. It's like, yeah the

Like the

system self-selects

these types of people who are able to not not get too wrapped up in the

Broadest possibilities and focus exactly on the the set of problems that they have in front of them

Yeah, which again like leads them back into short term orism or short term short term thinking but

I think any any us autumn manufacturer that wants to survive

long term

Even the next 10 years

I think they would they would do very well. They would be very very, uh, smart

to to hire

a um

An advisory board. Yes of of of some, uh, kind of

Globally minded long term minded

Possibly, you know

politically, um

Heterodox

Very wise minded, uh, uh people

Um, and I don't know. I mean, I you know

You can do consultancy. I'd be I'd be willing to to consult on a on a limited basis for for um, you know an appropriate

Compensation

Sure

Just thrown it out there just kind of any uh, any high level executives at at any of the the big, um

Well, what are there? Are there two or is it big two now really?

I mean we can call big three. Sure. Well that I mean the thing is is like we there's two that are

Controlled by people here. So yeah, I guess that's that's two. Yeah

Um, yeah, I'll put my hand up

I mean, hey look

If the thing is though is uh, if you would have been able to tell an automaker

A year ago, which you would have that they were going to invade Iran and it was going to have disastrous consequences

You would you would have saved them a lot of money like it would have been worth whatever fee you were going to try to do it

Genuinely, that would have been money. Well spent crazy

All all I'm doing is just someone will write this down

You don't have to act on it. Just write it down and in a year come back and if I was right, maybe you pay me again

Weird day today it was like, um

It was cold this morning and then

I had I had to like I had to do an oil change at some point today because

Like I wasn't my oh, I was still good

Like I didn't really need to change it for another 1,000

plus miles

But I'm gonna be driving like

2,500 miles

Yeah, it's like I better fucking do it and it's just been you know, it's been so cold and I just think of just

That oil congealing over the winter in the

crankcase

But uh

Yeah, I was just I was just telling matty rory that I changed my my oil today

um in preparation

To drive to to sea bring I'm going going to sea bring

this week um

because um

Because I don't know because I it's it's been on my short list for a long time now and and um

And I don't know that it's gonna happen next

Yeah

It's like we literally can't afford to fuel the cars

It has been cancelled before um in 74. Um, really?

Yeah, I do I have a story half written for you rory. I've been I've been just like this weekend has just been I've been so fucking up against it

With a million things, but I'm trying to to to to get this story together about just um

Although these races having been cancelled, uh, f1 finally

admitted that

South arabian and and uh, barenk romprey are not happening

Much to the uh disappointment of classic f1 heads who love the

Uh the tracks in uh those places

There I I feel like I I made I made that joke

Before oh no, it's not in here. I think I screen capped it and meant to send it to you guys and I um forgot

Let me see if I can find it

um, but it was just

Uh, where's my desktop? I can't oh there it is. Um, let me see if I can find

I always have like a billion screen caps

Yeah, this is just from from from one of the reddit threads about um

Can't cancellation of maybe of like the the wek race

This guy just says if we get rid of all the middle east tracks, world war three is a sacrifice. I'm willing to make

Gone get them out

but um

Anyway, so so yeah, um

But I'm gonna I'm gonna go go to seabring. So I'm uh excited about that and it's a very long drive

So so I did it. I did have to change the oil

uh in my car today and kind of preparation for that and and um

I do I I never mentioned on here. I um

A couple of weeks the the roads here have been so fucking destroyed by this winter

and um and a couple of weeks ago

I was

driving my daughter and her friends around and

Um, and I hit this fucking pot and the thing is like I saw it coming

You know, it's that thing like where you see it like, you know

10 10 15 feet out and it's like oh, that's gonna be bad

And it's like and I was on this

Like I had no room to swerve like there was no I was bought you know

It's like there was a car to my to my right and there's oncoming traffic, you know, and it's just like fuck

And and I mean it was fucking savage man. I mean it it hit

It hit so fucking hard that like it turned the wipers on you know

And and like and and all these girls just were just like

Like, you know, they thought that we had just been killed or something that we had just got in in an accident and it's just like

Oh, and I was just like god fucking damn it and and um

Went home, you know drop them off wherever they were going and went home and yeah sure enough

my um

my left front

Um, uh, Sparco Terra

cool

Wheels that I got that I got for my winter tires when I got the car

It was

Fucking

Totally bent

Visibly, you know bent and I did try I did try rubber hammer

I found the rubber my rubber hammer Rory at yours and Justin and tried that it wasn't it wasn't uh

and and and and actually, you know, I I did kind of do some some looking around online and and um

and the general consensus is that with um

I can't remember. I I I did look it up that it's it's like

I guess it's is it is it cast aluminum? It must be cast aluminum forged forged is better. Is that is that what yeah

So these these are cast and and it's just like yeah, basically if you I mean you can you can heat it up and you can

Yeah, I don't do that

Get you know get it back to to round but um, but you're gonna

Uh, yeah, the integrity of the wheel is gonna

Is not is not the same after that wheels are crazy the this is like

Um, have you ever seen the video of cutting a wheel with a sawzall?

The amount of tension that wheels are under internally is insane like the like so the heat treat thing is like very

important and like

the

the um

Yeah, like the fatigue metal fatigue is a huge huge thing, but like

wheels themselves like under are under a tremendous amount of strain

Just as they sit. Um, yeah. Oh interesting. Yeah, never thought about that. Um

Yeah, anyways, so long story short. I just fucking bought another wheel

$300 fucking wheel classic

Because I had money when I bought the car. Yeah, I was less of a consideration

It's like now I would just get fucking black steelys. Um, but uh

So so that sucked but but the thing is it was the the tire was still holding air

I took it to you know tire shop, you know here and and just said hey, can you guys just throw this?

You know, I think I think the tire is okay

Um, and they did and it's been fine. It's been you know, and you know on the on the new wheel

But I've had I've I've just I've had in the back of my mind

Like like my you know my alignment's got to be fucked

And and like and I'm also kind of like worried that like that like I damp

You know that like I fucking like damaged the wheel bearing or just or just you know

Like like some part of that front suspension

I mean it took such a hard hit and so so I've just been like

driving around like

You know, you know, you know when you get that shit in your head and you're just you're listening for just like the slightest

You know anything and it's like. Yeah. Fuck is that is that is that the wheel bearing?

You know what you know and like any any variation in like, you know

The the road surface or whatever like you get it. You're just like oh, what's that? You know and and um

So so I'd like to just uh request uh and and it'll be fine from it'll be fine

Absolutely fine. Yeah. Yeah. No 100%. Thank you. Yeah, there's no no question

Yeah, because I mean this did happen like I don't know like three weeks ago. Maybe maybe more like I would have

Yeah, and and the thing is

Had I made the call on going to sea bring earlier

You know, I'd been kind of on the fence about it. I would have taken it into the dealer and just said

Yeah, please just look this over and tell me it's all right or if I can replace whatever needs to be replaced

Uh, it's literally it'll be fine. There's no way

Peter if my old honda accord could make it down between new jersey and uh south of miami places

That shall not be named back and forth a few times. I think you you'll probably you'll be fine

You and you and the honda are gonna be a okay. The uh, yeah

I mean all the feel better all the force went into bending that piece of a

Sparko sacrifice itself for yeah, I mean really for the which is what it's for. Yeah. Yeah, I mean that's right. Yeah

Crumbles no problem

Um, yeah, it'll be it'll be 100% fine. No question. Good. All right. I'll put my seal approval on it

Yeah, so the honda zero real bummer

All right, b

You know, it it is funny. I was it was and I may if I have time this week

I want to write something about this, but it's like I really did

I was really charmed by that car person

The way it looked and like the ambition of it and I loved that it was coming from honda

Because in many ways that they're just such a humble company like it says and I don't mean that in like a

Humble isn't small or shitty. I mean it just like like

from a um

Spiritual in a spiritual sense

Not an ostentatious company. Yeah, but they're but they're also I mean they also have like a history of like

like real

Ingenuity and innovation like like technologically, you know and and being overly humble about it the entire time. Yeah

Yeah, yeah, and and I feel like like that that car and especially like the the stuff that I mean I'm I'm still

so intrigued

and and puzzled by by the whole like

No, we're gonna we're gonna have less torsional stiffness. I know you know like um

Like I really hope that that they um

They find that like that I that that idea that concept

Can somehow find find its way if not to mark it just like to to to further develop someone should be able to drive one

yeah, um, just because it's it's so

counterintuitive and and um

and just genuinely radical and and and in like like that that's the kind of

of really radical thinking that um

that

I think I feel like honda has has kind of

Exemplified kind of throughout its history and and and and it would be you know like a very it's like that car represented to me

just like a really

fascinating example of

of that, you know

yeah, I I think like for me it's like

This has to be kind of a

internally like culture wise

Moment of reflection for honda, I think

uh where it's like

You know, there's some kind of competing

um stuff happening with like the zero and

the eb thing and kind of like

you know, I

I did I asked at a round table

Maybe a year or two ago. Um, I was like do you guys feel like vindicated?

Uh by the eb thing kind of not happening like since you were and like some of the execs there were like yeah

We're I feel like we're still behind and we need to catch up right and some of them are like well

No, like this actually has worked out pretty well, and I was like

Uh that they kind of struck me as unusual in a car company to have that kind of lack of agreement on something like that

But the point is

To me it is like uh, if you're if you're honda kind of trying to question

Kind of how you come out of this

I think um the question that was a failed sneak on someone's part trying to get the

the uh

recycling out of the

closet um

but if um

If you're questioning how you come out of this and like what you are I think like honda has a very

good um

History for this moment. So like if you're looking at this moment right now of like

Whipsawing priorities can't predict anything gas is expensive

You know consumers are priced out of cars. It's like honda is

uniquely in a position to kind of

Meet that meet those meet those circumstances. So it's like

um, you know if anyone can has the engineers and the talent and kind of the um

Engineering talent, but also kind of like the um

Spiritual like alignment, I guess or like the width with that situation is honda. It's like wisdom. It's like yeah

I don't know if wisdom is the right word. I but it's like um

Like honda honda's first like kind of rise to global prominence happened under very similar circumstances

where everything was kind of chaotic and like

Oil prices were up and you know oil crisis

Yeah, well crisis if you will and it's like uh, and everyone was involved actually

But uh, but it's like, you know, they they got through it by by providing people with like

um cheap

hyper reliable cars that were fuel efficient cheap to run and um

That were like very broadly appealing besides all of that stuff like they were fun to drive and that employed employed

into some ingenious

Uh, yeah engineering, you know, yeah, I've been thinking a lot about the honda fit

Yeah, oh, it's a great time for the honda fit. I gotta say it would be a great time for a car like the honda fit. Um

smart smart packaging and it's like, you know, it's like whatever if if

If there's a question about like whether honda kind of got away from what it's good at or or kind of lost sight of like

what its core competency is with these cars like

In my mind and I think a lot of people's minds globally like that is honda's core competency as a car like the fit

Where it's like ingenious packaging

fun to drive

And affordable and efficient like you know what I mean like it's like, um

Not to put too fine a point on it, but I think like it is um

You know, like I said when you have these moments of of crisis or identity or whatever it's like it is

Always instructive to to look back at like, okay. What do you get at?

What can you actually do well and what like would do people look to you for?

And I think like I don't know that's what I've always looked on to for so

Uh that and a cheap k24a from a boat. That's true

Yeah, the other thing I always look to them for

But yeah, I don't know it's it's um

It seems like it seems like that they would be they have a good foundation to go back to which is which is always nice

Um, you want to wrap I think we're

cool

All right

Let's wrap. I gotta clean my entire office. I have um, this is not for a pod. Um, but I have

Stay tired everybody

About this episode

The hosts dive into Honda's recent cancellation of the ambitious Zero EV project, reflecting on its potential as a radical halo car and what this means for Honda's future direction. They discuss the broader challenges facing automakers today, including market unpredictability, geopolitical tensions, and the struggle between short-term profits and long-term innovation. The conversation also touches on the contrast between Western automakers and China's strategic approach to EV development, highlighting systemic issues in capitalism and industry planning. Personal stories about car maintenance and road hazards add a relatable touch to the deep industry analysis.

alignment batteries canceling a car project cast aluminum charging infrastructure classic F1 core competency crankcase e.v. EV

Cadillac Celestiq Honda Accord

Original notes

While Peter drives south to Sebring, enjoy Rory's read on Honda's decision to walk back their EVs, including the Honda 0. But can any automaker in the U.S., functioning as yet another monad within capitalism, make informed decisions? Or is the whole system... bad? You can support Alloy with a membership here: https://alloymag.com/sign-up/ and read Rory's piece about the Honda 0 series here: https://alloymag.com/zero-sum/ AND don't forget to send this one to friends who might be interested in what Alloy is up to: https://alloymag.com/heres-what-alloy-is-doing-by-the-way/ Keep up with Peter's music here: https://peterpeterhughes.bandcamp.com Your producer pal Matty, who writes these, has nothing to plug except this Patreon page you're already on. Support my wonderful co-hosts ty ty ty ˖⁺‧₊˚ ♡ ˚₊‧⁺˖

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