Episode #210 - Doug DeMuro & The Death of Fun Cars

In a world with in diary too many shows about cars, this is another pointless automotive podcast.

You're allowed to swear, Douglas.

You're allowed to do it.

Well, just this once.

Well, pace yourself, though, OK?

We have to.

That's true.

It's a marathon.

The swearing goes away.

Yeah.

Well, we shall see.

Well, I was joking with Chadwick.

We'll just drop in a random bleep somewhere in here to make it sound like you said something

truly unhinged.

Sometimes on the plot, I accidentally curse.

You know that in real life, I curse.

Yeah.

We're recording, by the way.

There's a big bar that comes up of, wait, before we get into it, Chadwick, how do you

guys know each other?

Frank, he sold me some shady cars once upon a time.

Going out to see the cars, it turned into like three hour conversations.

Yes, you can imagine.

The original car was the 89 Taurus SHO, I believe.

That's right.

Yep.

So that's.

You're still Frank's show on my phone.

Yeah.

You're show Chad in my phone.

So there you go.

That's how this works out.

Chadwick, what the hell are we doing?

Will you bring us in?

What are we doing?

So welcome back to another pointless automotive podcast.

You recognize Frank.

You might not recognize this other guy.

Doug, something, something, something.

Hello.

Welcome to the podcast.

Oh, he's playing with fire.

Well, he just lit a fantastic candle.

We'll guess the fragrance.

That'll be part of the quiz later in the show.

But Doug, first off, apologies for joining us on this circus.

But we're super glad to have you, man.

I appreciate you having me.

I really, truly do.

Frank is one of my automotive heroes.

So.

Oh, boy.

I don't know about that.

No, it's true.

Frank is one of my automotive heroes.

I'm not exaggerating.

I do owe you something, and that is a go in the car behind me.

The Chevy Sprint Turbo.

Are we going to review this and sell it?

Yeah.

I got to bring it down.

You going to sell it?

Yeah.

It needs to go to someone who's going to use it more than I do because I have

too many shit boxes.

And so I'll let you play with this one and do the whole song and dance and we'll

let it rip no reserve.

Let's go.

Let's do it.

And I do think, I guess, just to segue us in, this is a random, cheap, fun car from the 1980s.

And I don't know.

It kind of seems like it's hard to go out and buy an affordable, cheap, fun thing in the

automotive world.

Maybe that's true.

Maybe that's not true.

I think it's true.

So that's what we're going to talk about.

The death of fun.

Frank, I'm going to give you a quick counterpoint, and that's the Dodge Charger

EV.

And that one right up to Shea.

Back when that was available, which I hope to God is no longer, you could lease

one of those for like one hundred and ninety bucks a month.

That's shocking.

And yeah, I guess get it.

Charger.

Do they burst into flames like other electric

Stalantis products?

That would add to the fun.

Keep in mind, you're making the point that fun.

Imagine if you drove around in a Charger EV and went zero to sixty and three

seconds or whatever it is in that giant thing, and then it burst into flames.

You can't tell me that's not fun.

Exhilarating.

Yeah, yeah.

Do they have a sound synthesizer that does the hemmy tick like artificially?

Would that be absolutely fantastic?

Yeah, the the the frat, the frat zonic.

What do they call it?

The frat zonic.

Yeah, it's no, that's that's I don't know.

Like, I guess just other than, of course, the the EV charger,

which I assume is the scent of your candle.

Well, what?

What?

Like, are there any?

Is there is this does this bear out?

And I guess actually even for that, like, how do we define what a fun car is?

Oh, like because I think I think there's a couple of different angles to take there.

I don't know. Chadwick, what's what do you consider to be a fun car?

What? Yeah, I'll shoot my shy here.

I assume we're talking specifically about new cars.

That's yeah, yeah, yeah.

And new on the market today.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Fun to me, it actually does have a bit of a historical card thing to it, too,

though, is simple in nature, more of an analog experience, low maintenance cost,

you know, reliability, because that's the counter to that kind of takes away

the fun for me anyway.

I want to be able to go out and cane on the car a little bit,

have some fun, ride it hard and put it away wet, if you will.

Live my life according to that.

That's what it means to me.

That's what it means for a fun car to me.

And I'll pass the mic.

Chadwick, take me back to an era where you feel the fun car was really

rocking it.

Dude, I I've always quoted late 80s, early 90s.

Yeah, early 90s, too.

I think we had a big.

What were our cheap fun cars in that like 1990?

Miata hitting the scene, right?

Like, I also, to be fair, and this is a little bit of a disclaimer,

I like shitty domestic cars, too.

So like Cavaliers, the 24s, they really revved my engine, if you will.

So I would have already.

OK, Miata, I totally agree, obviously, then Miata is still available

and still cheap. I mean, honestly, you see the other day that today's

Miata is like the cheapest ever when you account for inflation.

It's wild.

Miata is still here and still cheap.

I would argue that the Z24 Cavalier was never actually a fun car.

It only pretended to be one.

Are you did you see past the cladding?

Is that what I'm hearing?

I had so much cladding had a good I mean, rubbery five speed, a 2.8

anemic V6 by GM.

Well, you're talking about that Z24 Cavalier.

You're not even four. Go easy now.

You know, I'll interject, though, because I do think and it's funny,

Doug, I know a lot of times you've said your opinion is that like

peak car is probably like mid 2000s, right?

Oh, five ish.

Yeah. And I think there's something to be said for that.

You know, for me, what I think, you know, peak fun car is I do I do

want to say like the early 90s because you did have things,

you know, early to mid 90s, you had Integra GSR,

you had the CRX, you had the Prey, the Celica, the probe.

You had the escort GT.

That's like I think that one one truth of what you're saying,

what you're both saying is that in that era, there was definitely

more of a focus on whether or not all of those cars are actually

fun by today's standards or even were really fun by those standards.

We all just were young and thought they were.

But regardless, there were there were more coops.

There was more of a focus on like making a fun, making a

sport-ish car, several sport-ish cars in your lineup.

Like any automaker could get away with having four coops in the early 90s.

And that is true.

Absolutely not the case in that sense.

I think you're right.

You know, it's interesting.

I was having a conversation about this very topic with Nissan people,

Nissan product planner people a couple of years ago.

And one of the things they told me that they think killed the fun car

that you're referring to, which is like not the high powered

like exotic car, but like just the buy buys it and it's efficient.

But you can take it to work and have fun on the way is the crossover

because crossovers no longer you can have the same level of performance

and also sit up high and you no longer have to make the trade off

that you did in an XJ where the fuel economy was terrible

and it was rough riding and all that stuff.

And he was like, basically he was like, we think that the rogue

is like kind of what killed like the 240SX in a way.

Like people filed people because if you look at the numbers,

they're not that far apart, but people no longer really wanted

like that they added practicality without really sacrificing

like SUVs did throughout the era that you're referring to

where SUVs were all body on frame, bullshit.

No one wanted to buy those cars back then,

but then they became pretty usable.

You know, right.

And but what's interesting, too, is and you mentioned something about

like we're perceiving them now as fun, right?

Like a Paseo in a vacuum is probably not a terribly fun thing.

I think it's eminently cool.

And I really would love a clean Paseo,

but I'm also an idiot and and so but I do think there is value

in the perception of fun, right?

And whimsy, right?

Like the the the the 99 new Beetle, I think is a fun thing,

even if it's just in whimsy and not necessarily in driving experience.

Do you think that the PT Cruiser was fun?

I think for the people that bought it in period absolutely was a fun thing.

It was this kind of retro thing and look how quirky it is.

It just got wood paneling and I can get it.

Yeah, I mean, the emoji purple, I would argue, though,

that then you can go kind of far with that.

I mean, I will say one thing.

You know, it's a car that sells in massive numbers today

by your definition is the Jeep Wrangler.

Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

I think that's that's that's a coaching point.

And then they're not that expensive.

Regular low end Jeep Wranglers are not crazy expensive.

And then you have the Rubicon Unlimited.

Most people buy, but you can get a pretty basic Wrangler

and have fun in a Bronco four cylinder steel wheel Bronco

for not insane money.

Those are actually killer.

Every time I see one of those, I'm like, oh, my God,

somebody ordered the steel wheel, two door, four cylinder Bronco.

And I'm jealous of them.

Yeah, I do think that those types of people

probably would have bought a Prelude and a Paseo back in the day.

But now for a lot of reasons, off-roading has kind of really taken hold.

And that's why a lot of some of those cars,

some of those buyers have gone as well.

What about some of that era?

The fun, quirky crossovers from that same era,

whether it be the Amigo or the X 90 or the Tracker.

You got to remember, though.

Yeah, every single two door SUV in history has failed,

without exception, every single one Wrangler.

Wranglers knocking on the door.

But yeah, the Wranglers, like, proved the rule.

It's like the one that has remained.

But even it is like 85 percent four door now, right?

Yeah. And so you kind of see where it's going.

I don't know. I just think that that was a fun era of cars.

I just it was fun in the sense that they made these sports sport,

these two door sporty-ish cars and people kind of moved on from cars

in an interesting like literal cars in an interesting way.

And I think there's still like fun out there in the market.

I do agree, it's gotten more expensive.

Sure. But like, there are still fun cars out there in the world.

You're lamenting the death of the little two door front wheel drive coupe.

You wish that instead of being able to buy a Centra,

but there was also a 200 SX and a 240 SX and all that.

An X 2000.

An X 2000, a Pulsar.

You wish there was all there.

Yes, I want all.

Let me make some let me make some proclamations.

Please. First off, there are some funds.

There are still some some relatively fun cheap cars out there.

Relatively cheap, fun cars out there beyond just the SUVs

like the Bronco and the Wrangler.

Sure. The BRZ and the GR 86 are damn good and not that expensive.

Correct.

The Yada is damn good and not that expensive.

Correct. And those three, by the way,

are better than any of the front wheel drive early 90s cars.

And I guess maybe that's the crux of this is maybe what I'm actually

what we're actually lamenting is the lack of like depth in choice,

whether they're good choices or not be damned.

Right. Well, maybe it's just, I don't know.

There's not the dynamic range.

There used to be either, right?

Like the the delta between, I don't know, like I said,

a Ford Escort or a Toyota MR2 from the early 90s.

Right. Vastly different cars.

MR2 was always an affordable kind of sporty aspiration car,

which we don't really have an analog for today.

Modern MR2 coming back conversations aside,

which it won't be what it used to be.

I don't think that the GR86 is kind of that.

Like I think the GR86 is so good and I think it's so cool.

I agree with you, but I think it's more an analog to like a 240SX.

Yeah. And an MR2, right?

Yeah. I mean, it's it's less purpose built sports car.

Like an MR2 was a I saw at SW 20 on the road today.

And I'm like, they're so cool.

Imagine where that was going on.

You know, yeah, exactly.

And guess what? No one bought them in 95 rolled around

and then they killed it off.

Or that I want to I want to I want an AW11

supercharged car personally.

But oh, I like the turbo eight SW 20s.

I think those are the coolest.

We had the cleanest one on the site and I reviewed it.

Yeah. And I was driving around and thinking

if it wasn't for the fact that I have an ego

and need to prove myself with my supercars,

this does about 80 percent of the job

and it's liable and it's it's cool.

Like really cool.

You don't feel that way about the GR 86.

I agree with that. That's true, for sure.

And and OK, so we have Miata and GR 86

and then maybe GTI barely.

I mean, yeah, I'm sticking around for every year

the lineup is pared down a little bit more

and a little bit more.

I didn't even offer a stick anymore in that car.

Well, yeah.

Is that it? Is that a rat?

Five hundred. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Wait, hang on, hang on.

I just did a thing on this with the

when WRX is still out there,

which, by the way, was not out there in the early 90s

and WRX is not that expensive.

Hyundai has all those end cars.

Yeah, there's a lot of launchers.

Genuinely, I think those are cool as hell.

That's that exists.

So take that.

This the Z is not crazy money,

but it's starting to get up there

beyond what we're talking about.

Civic Si, that's still around.

That would have worked.

If that was just nearly 90s,

that would have, I know it should did in some ways.

Same recipe.

Yeah, it's like the Mercury Tracer LTS.

It's practically the same car, essentially.

Yeah.

The Mercury Tracer LTS.

Yeah, I could speak to that car a little bit.

No, it's a four door small,

diminutive sedan that had the S-Court GT engine

stuffed into it, which was a Mazda.

I never knew that there was a Mercury version.

That's, wow, that is a deep cut.

It is very rare that I don't know

about something from the late 80s and early 90s.

Oh, yeah, that's our wheelhouse.

Well, Chadwick, you owned one for an hour, so.

Yeah, no, I had it for quite a bit, yeah.

I haven't seen that generation S-Court

or Tracer on the road in forever.

I've had both of them.

You know, I was in Munich two years ago,

and I saw the next generation Tracer on the road.

Woo.

Hot damn.

That's dedication.

How sweet would it be to import one

from Munich to the States?

I mean, you have your fog light on it

and like the KM Spedometer.

Yeah, you leave the Euro plate on it

and put the California plate over it just to kind of flex.

People will be like, what do you mean?

You're wrong.

No, no, actually.

You're wrong.

You know what you haven't brought up, by the way,

which was a big deal back in that era

was all the Turbo Chrysler's.

Those cars have never,

like there's no replacement for those.

Like, Chrysler doesn't even make a car anymore,

like a little.

Yeah, the Daytona Shelby's and the Chargers

and the Shadows and Colry Colt Turbos.

Pure RT.

I love all those cars.

Yeah.

None of them exist anymore.

No, they're hard to come by.

I had a Shelby Turbo Z 88 Daytona back in the day,

and it was super nice.

I sold it on the shady platform known as Cars and Bids.

I don't know if you guys know that one.

Those cars in nice shape, they like literally do not exist.

Like they were all.

The other day, I'm driving along and I hear a word,

you know, and I look over and it's a neon SRT4.

I'm like, damn, someone's still driving

like a modded neon SRT4.

That was 20 years after the cars that were like that.

Like all those, the Alta's,

those Shadow Turbos and all that stuff,

even the Omnis, like they're all gone.

But yeah, those cars,

there were definitely more back then.

There's no doubt there were more back.

Or even, I mean, even convertibles.

Like who's making convertibles anymore?

Yeah, I mean, it was wildly expensive.

I think about this a lot.

Like it's wild when you really think about in the early 90s,

there was a convertible version of everything.

The fact that they made a Cavalier convertible

by modern standards is like truly mind-blowing,

that they would take their compact car,

which manufacturers can't even justify

making compact sedans anymore, right?

And they made a convertible in multiple generations.

Like it's truly mind-blowing to consider

that that ever was a thing that happened.

Brank's Geometro convertible?

I mean, why?

Why?

I'm glad they did it, right?

But yeah, it's-

Even through like the 90s,

like Audi, remember the Audi 90?

Like they did a sedan and a convertible.

That was like what you did.

It was like accepted.

Like convertibles were definitely hotter than.

I do think a lot of people

get their convertible fixed from the Jeep Wrangler though.

I really, I think convertibles are just as popular now

on a total unit basis

when you factor in the Wrangler and the Bronco.

Maybe, perhaps, but like it,

I guess it all leads to like, why do we think,

why do we think this has gone this way

outside of the existence of the Nissan Rogue?

Why do you think though that plays a role?

Like, okay, back in the day, if you wanted something fun,

that was even slightly quick, you had to get a Passeo

because the Corolla had 85 horsepower

and was just a complete penalty box, right?

And so you got a Passeo because it had 96 horsepower

and it looked cool.

But now you get a Rogue and it's doing zero to 60

in seven and a half seconds.

Like you don't have to get a sports car

and you don't have to sacrifice the practicality,

which is what you had to do back then.

What is it is fun?

That's the thing, right?

No, definitely not.

Not as fun, right?

But consumers sit there and they think,

this is quick enough for me.

And it's gonna happen even more with electric cars, right?

Because now you can buy a model,

you can lease a model Y for really not that much

and do zero to 60 even faster than an exotic.

I mean, so I do think that as part of it

is just like the democratization of speed, so to speak.

I think maybe plays a role,

but in some ways it's,

I think someone can take that same argument.

Well, if all the powertrain is just this powerful thing,

like can't you just put it in like a more fun body

and sell them like hotcakes?

And the market has proven no, apparently.

I don't think consumers want it.

I think back then you couldn't take the power,

like you couldn't make an SUV tenable

in terms of the way, like in terms of performance.

Like there were, you just couldn't do it.

They were all body on frame and slow

and that's just how it was.

But now you can.

And so like if I'm a consumer and they're thinking

that zero to 60 in six and a half seconds

is like all I need, why would I get a Paseo

when I can get a rogue

and not give up any of the practicality

or sitting up high or any of that stuff, you know?

Maybe, so maybe it's the average consumer has lost

its appetite for fun.

Yeah.

I think the bean counters carry way more weight

than they used to, right?

Like you go back to like we're talking about like,

especially beans in the late 80s, early 90s,

what are your P and L statements?

They're like stone tablets with someone carving numbers.

Maybe, right?

I'll bet you though that those cars made money.

I'll bet you that if you went back there

like virtually every car we've mentioned made money.

And who cared at the end of the day, right?

They're like, hey, I got an idea.

Just take the top off that metro.

You know, there was no thought behind that.

Or yeah, we'll make the Achiva SCX.

Like I have who's clamoring for that.

At the time it wasn't as difficult

probably to develop a car, right?

Like there weren't as many regs like.

Feature creep.

There's so many emissions regulations now.

Safety.

Yeah.

Safety has changed a lot.

And so like that probably has played a role in it too.

I think there's a range of things

that has played a role for sure.

I think it's consumers.

I think it's the advent of speed and performance

in cars that are easier to own, less more practical

and definitely like regulatory.

I mean, I have a book upstairs here

a consumer guide from 1991.

There were a lot more options in general

in terms of like variety.

Like now I think there's probably just as many cars for sale

but there's so many different classes of SUV.

Like how many SUVs can Toyota sell?

The answer is like crazy.

But back then, you know, yeah,

there was a front-wheel drive coupe.

There was a rear-wheel drive coupe.

There was a four-seater coupe.

There was a Camry coupe.

There was a Camry wagon.

You know, there was a lot more different variants

whereas the market has definitely kind of moved

a little bit more away from that stuff.

Yeah, and just thinking about, you know,

reg regulatory creep, feature creep,

it does make me think like cars are so freaking big now.

Where, you know, maybe I don't want to own

a small convertible car

because I'm afraid I'm gonna get devoned

by a retiree in an Escalade

after they're drinking a bottle of white zenit

10 a.m. on the way to pickleball.

I don't, you know, I'm just specific.

Now I have to, you know,

I have to get the SUV because I sit higher.

Now I feel safer and now I won't die.

So maybe that's got a component as well.

I don't know.

I think once you, the other thing is,

once you gave consumers the ability to sit up high,

that's just what they wanted.

Such a commanding position.

Like people just prefer it so much.

Like you talk to anybody.

I mean, they make the Audi A8.

I don't know if you know this,

but the Audi A8 now when you open the door rises.

That sounds like it's not gonna be a problem outside of warranty.

That's gonna be flying forever.

Perfect for lease.

Literally nobody who buys that car.

So it's, I don't think it is gonna be that much

for a problem out of warranty.

They've sold 11 of those.

People just really want that.

So yeah, you've lost, Frank, you know what the thing is,

you've lost your small front wheel drive

coupon convertible just like in the 1800s,

they lost the damn horse.

That's what you are right now.

Horses for courses.

I'm a frozen horse.

That's what I am.

I can't believe they took away the horse and buggy.

I liked it.

I just gotten to figure out how to run my horse.

You should be thanking the automakers

for still offering a few of these cars.

I should grovel in front of them.

You should say, I know you can no longer put

a 1.8 liter V6 inside of a Mazda little hatchback,

but I'm so glad that you still give us the Miata

and some sort of Mazda three that's relatively quick.

Well, is that it then?

Is that a wrap?

Like, are there no more, is this it?

This is, it's only downhill from here

as far as fun cars.

Do we think there's ever a possibility for, you know,

a large selection of whimsy and fun and bright colors?

I do think that will come in the form of electric cars.

That I agree on.

I think you're gonna see automakers

trying to differentiate their EVs more and more

because the powertrain isn't a differentiation.

And so I think you're gonna see weird stuff

like an Ioniq 5 off-road version.

And like, there's good, which exists insanely,

and there's gonna have to be more weird stuff

that comes out of that.

But I do think, yes, the days of the Paseo are gone.

Dead, dead, man.

Marsh, but that's why we have our charge, right?

We have to rescue and restore these obscure cars

keep them on the road to keep the spirit alive.

Right, big Paseo energy.

There's so few of these cars left.

And you know what?

There's so few people who are really into them anymore

either, which is sad.

Like, you know.

What would you be searching for

if you were gonna pick up something?

I know you mentioned the MR2.

Is there any like, when you're back on cars

and not spending six plus figures.

If I were to go back to that realm of those types of cars,

I would love a SpiritRT.

I have always wanted a SpiritRT.

I have always, I got close on buying a few of them.

They were $5,000 used cars you could find in the newspaper.

Yep, hell yeah.

Now you can't find them anywhere.

But I would always have wanted a SpiritRT.

I thought they were the coolest things in the world.

What else from that era did I really love?

I did love the S4 GT,

but I just wasn't quite quick enough.

Like the MR2, never got really into the Hondas.

They never had that much power.

I mean, an integrity bar, of course,

but that's everybody likes that car.

Although the early GSRs,

like the pre-94 GSRs are pretty cool too,

and they're not around.

Yeah, they're really bad in that teal color.

You know what I really like

that I actually think sometimes about getting

is early WRXs, which are importable from Japan.

And for some reason, the free.

To me, it seems like that car is like seminal

in the car world,

and those cars should cost money,

but they don't.

They're like 12 grand, if that.

It's like so weird.

I like those cars a lot.

Those are cool.

Yeah, no, those are really good.

We were talking an episode, a few episodes ago,

all things prelude,

because the current one,

talk about a fun, affordable car, right?

Oh my God.

I spent 10 minutes with those guys,

15 minutes in front of my house

when they dropped off the car

talking through the pricing,

and just eventually we were just at odds

and we moved on with our lives.

Jeez.

Like couldn't they have basically had the same product

but put the Civic Si,

powertrain and drivetrain in it?

I don't know that that would have been

that much better though, ultimately,

like the, the, the hyper is 10,000 dollars cheaper.

The hyper is faster than the Si.

Yeah.

You know, like either one of them,

I think would have been a disappointment.

Like the, the problem as I've started to realize

that I didn't mention this in my video,

but it hit me the other day,

prelude buyers have a nostalgia for the prelude.

Right.

But then they have more money now, right?

Like then they did in 1997, you know?

So they can afford a more expensive car,

but what they don't have nostalgia for

is a car that has 200 horsepower.

Like they're in their minds,

cars have gotten faster.

They're willing to pay more,

but like they've experienced a Tesla

and they're not going to now want to go

into a car that has the same horsepower level

as their prelude from back in the day.

Right.

It's like you're trading on the nostalgia,

but you're not actually giving people,

it's a wild decision to me, totally wild.

They told me they hope to sell 4,000 of those a year.

I think it'll be just that if, if that.

Yeah.

Yeah, that seems like a tough sell.

And just, you know, I don't know.

It, we don't need to spend too, too much time

on the ghost of the prelude.

When the good ones were like,

I'm a fourth gen truther personally.

Fifth gen, buddy.

Fifth gen's where it's at.

Yeah.

Okay. So the fourth gen was the,

the fifth gen was the one with the flat,

the tail light in the back

that made the little circle.

The sixth gen was the last one, right?

It ended in 01.

No, the current is the sixth gen.

Sixth is the sixth.

Oh yeah, okay.

The fifth was the best.

What do you have?

Fourth, come on.

The fifth is like notorious.

Like it's beloved in the automotive community.

What the fourth gen dog?

He's just a counterpointer with like that.

No, you've got that dissenter dash.

Like the Jordy LaForge looking cluster.

I don't know, whatever.

You're wrong.

Damn it.

Remember the, remember the Accord coupe

from that era that had the NSX rear end?

Oh yeah.

Like the 99 coupe.

The glass automatic that would just shatter

every 10 years.

Yeah, 10 years.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

There you go.

No, I don't know.

Those are cool.

That was really cool.

I do agree.

I think maybe not like tomorrow in the world of EVV,

but I think it's like battery tech gets better

and hopefully some of the potential weight

on some of these smaller EVs can come down a little bit.

You might see, I know there's all the hand wringing

and back and forth on the EV Boxster.

We'll have to see what that looks like once it's out.

I'm not holding my breath.

Plus I think the real key with the EVs

is it just simply does not cost all that much

to develop different variants.

Just like it used to maybe back in the day

when you'd share platforms more.

So you have this skateboard chassis

and this battery technology put in six different cars

and it's really not as hard as having to do that.

So you can make it ID3 and ID4 and IDBuzz, right?

And it really comes down to just like designing

architecture of the physical body at that point.

And so you could see a world in which they can make

more kind of fun and interesting stuff.

It may actually be beneficial.

And if it feels like it shifts,

then aren't we fine with that?

Or I mean, you just do what the Chinese manufacturers

are doing and make them jump and like float

and all that stuff.

And eject the battery when you don't need it anymore.

Right, yeah.

Which my EV would jump.

It's a known thing that I don't have a car that jumps.

You and Chris Cross, who else?

I don't know.

Were they happy about?

House of Pain.

Chris Cross happy about having to jump, Frank,

is that, I don't know if that's factually true.

They were quite upset about it.

Since we're discussing vehicles from this era,

I wanna show you a car model that I have on my desk.

Oh my.

You brought up this high-performance mercury tracer

that I had never heard of.

I'm about to blow y'all's mind, okay?

You think you guys are into the front-wheel drive

weird cars in the late 80s, early 90s scene?

What do we got?

Let's see it.

You see this?

You know what this is?

It's a DeWoo.

DeWoo C.L.O.

Okay.

Do you remember that front-wheel drive Pontiac Le Mans

in the early 80s and mid-80s?

That's a DeWoo.

Boom.

Oh, is that the KDM sedan version?

I think the Le Mans, I think this was the original

and the Le Mans they took from this.

I think this is the OG.

Oh wow.

Got it.

Fantastic.

That's real.

Dude, my favorite thing about DeWoo was their font

for their models where you could not read it.

That was my favorite part about it.

Yes, big Le Gonsa.

Yeah, nobody's actually pining for the days of the Le Gonsa.

How about that?

Are there cars?

How about that?

Forget about performance.

Like, do you guys, you talk about car,

oh, we just, someone needs to be there

to carry on the legacy of these cars.

What about the cars that weren't fun

but are still like interesting,

like the Nubira hatchback, which was 99 only, by the way,

or like Saturns and stuff?

Like, are people, do you feel any obligation

to the Saturns or do you only feel it

to the slightly more performance-oriented Toyota

Paseo?

I think there's a following, especially for Saturns.

Those people are just freaking weird.

And they had the launch pad experience back in the day.

They still want to relive those times.

They're still like Saturn truthers out there.

We got to embrace them as well, right?

I'll take an SC2 from the early 90s.

I saw a nice SL2 today.

Take an SW2, the wagon with a manual.

Oh, that's a Saturn Flex.

I'm not ready for that yet.

But I'm going to work into it.

I haven't seen one of those in forever.

Pretty unicorn-y right now.

I did see a view red line, which are not super, super

uncommon just yet.

Probably because they had Honda powertrains.

So they're still around.

Although, remember, all the V6 views had that Honda V6.

Yes.

That's the only view you're going

to see on the road in 10 years.

Although, you know what?

They probably had transmission problems, didn't they?

Exactly.

They had to have.

That's the great irony of the whole thing.

General Motors organized this whole plan

to get some reliability into Honda showrooms.

And then the cars ended up being unreliable anyway.

That's the old GM touch.

He's still managed to screw it up.

Yeah, boy.

Yeah, the badge engineering and the crossovers,

the Pontiac vibe GTs of the world,

may they rest in peace.

You know, also, another thing

that I think about with regards to fun and consumers

is that fun has also changed a little bit.

Like, at least here in California, I think,

I'm sure you guys feel this way.

Like, forerunners are cool, you know?

Like, paseos were cool.

Like, there was a time when, like, I got a paseo,

I got like a zippy car.

Forerunner is like cool now.

Like a maverick is like a cool.

Like, if you want cool, like, yeah,

I think the definition of cool has also

changed since that era.

Like, I think a, I think a civic coop wouldn't be cool

in the way that, like, spending the same money

on even like a, you know, as a used forerunner

or something like that, like, would be.

Yeah, I think that's fair.

But, you know, as a middle-aged, bearded white guy,

you know, I feel like I should be the arbiter of cool.

You know?

The world needs to get the, the world needs to adjust to my

say the cool when I was in high school or whatever.

I do think about this a lot though,

because there are oftentimes you still run into one of those

cars on the road still and you're like,

I cannot believe that there was a period

where automakers could justify having five

two-door cars in the lineup, you know?

Not even justified, it was almost mandatory.

Same with like convertible, as we said,

like every manufacturer, you know,

your Mercury, Capri, XR2, you're, all of that's like,

just everyone had to have, you know,

whether they were doing like that Mercury, Capri,

they're like, panic move to bring a convertible

into their lineup, so they drag it out of Australia.

Can you name the two other Mercury's

in my entire lifetime that did not have

a direct Ford twin in the United States,

aside from the Capri XR2?

The final generation Cougar.

Yes, and?

The, oh man, there's got to be like a rebadged.

This is hard.

Yeah, because Marauder's out, obviously,

for Crown Dick.

I'm trying to think, like, end times Mercury

was a hell of a thing, trying to think if they-

That's one way to say it.

That when it was just the death rattle

of every domestic brand, when it was just a brand

engineering exercise for like five model years before.

I'll take one of those late Cougars

with the manual V6 and yellow though.

I mean, if we're gonna be serious for first sight.

They were cool.

Yeah.

Pretty futuristic looking.

Chadwick, you gonna bail me out on this one?

You know, I'm stumbling a little bit on this one, Mercury.

Okay, I'll give you a hint.

There were two generations of, technically.

Technically.

Gosh.

Do you want to know?

I feel like it's going to be like-

It's not the minivan, it's not the villager.

Yeah, it's the villager.

There we go.

Pissed you off because the villager had a direct twin,

but it was a Nissan.

Right, use the quest.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

That was how Ford, let's take Mercury,

let's give him one unique non-Ford product.

Only problem is it still has an exact twin.

Of course.

It's just a more trusted name in Nissan,

you know what I mean?

Oh yeah.

It's a complete disaster.

What a car company that was.

What an easy decision it must have been to kill that.

Yeah, like there's a lot of those Oldsmobile and Plymouth

were just like at the end.

It was just like, what are we even doing guys?

Yeah, yeah, Buick is still with us somehow.

China, yeah.

I still don't really understand why Buick sticks around.

Like I get that they're into it in China,

but like why do you have to keep it in the States?

There's absolutely no interest or market in it.

You know?

Nothing.

I do see more and more like on-core GXs or whatever.

I've been talking about this recently with Filippo,

our buddy.

GM SUVs have had a resurgence.

Like we were almost out of GMF.

Like GM was really kind of death-rattle in all these cars.

Not the Tahoe and Suburban,

so you can pipe it in the trucks,

but like crossovers.

Like the Equinox is old, the Blazer was old,

there was nothing else.

And now I see Traxxas and Trail Blazers

and the new Traverse and the EVs,

the Blazer EV and the Equinox EV

are some of the most popular electric cars of all.

And it's like GM has like battled back on crossovers.

And I'm like, how is this happening?

Against all odds.

Against all odds?

Yeah, it just, I don't know.

Against all transmission odds, they've battled back.

It was the rental fleets and nothing else.

And now you don't even have to be

in like Indiana to see him.

Like there's Traversas like around.

Oh yeah, it's wild.

Yeah.

Well, how about this?

Speaking of against all possible odds,

we have a game that we like to play on this here, Pod.

I know, Doug, that you've listened

to all 209-ish episodes of the Pod here,

all repeatedly, so you're well-versed.

So I'm gonna explain this not for you,

but for the listener, for the first-time listener.

And so this is how this works.

And you are going to be our contestant on our quiz today,

which is our print ad quiz game.

What's gonna happen is I have found

a print advertisement for a vehicle

from the 80s and 90s up until about the mid-2000s.

I'm gonna read the print copy.

I'm gonna redact out like the year the make the model.

And it will be incredible.

I'm gonna get them all.

How many you got?

Normally, we just do one.

But if you're feeling like that, okay, all right.

Oh, let's spicy and do it.

Okay, I was gonna offer you a couple options.

Are you gonna say the engine or not?

Yeah, okay.

Sometimes.

Yeah, if it's like, you know, if it's like vario-cam,

I might like bleep that out, right?

But otherwise, you know, I'll read it.

So, okay, well, let's see then.

This is a great game because, do you remember back then,

you could put like text in your ads, like a lot.

Absolutely.

There are a lot of cars that I would love

to be able to do this with,

but every ad is like four words, right?

Like once you get to the mid-2000s,

it's just a picture.

It got, yeah.

You have the neon just says hi.

Right, that was great.

That was great.

Or the new Beetle.

But yeah, the 80s and 90s, I have,

above my desk here, I have some Range Rover owners

still check their own oil.

Do you know this ad where there's a picture

of a Range Rover and it's actually positioned

on a mountaintop next to an oil field?

And the tagline is some Range Rover owners

still check their own oil.

That's brilliant.

And it's obviously, I mean, it's so,

you could never get away with this in today's world.

Oh, yeah.

Look at that.

Fantastic.

Oh yeah.

Well, what's wild is there some?

I remember there's one that we did

where I don't remember what the vehicle was specifically,

but it touted its power steering

as making it easily womanhandle-able.

And it's like, holy smokes.

It's a moment in time.

Yeah, just, you know, and now there's no,

now you have no like denigration of anyone

because you don't even have words, which is the shame.

So here's how this works.

Since you're so, I'm not even gonna put a time limit

because you're gonna nail this.

No, no.

And so let me, let me give you,

I'll give you a shorter one.

And if you crush it immediately,

and I think you probably will,

then I've got a slightly more difficult one.

And you get three guesses.

Do you give me an era or am I just flying blind here?

You're flying based on, you know,

when they start talking about SRS or anti-lock brakes

or fuel injection, like this is how,

these are the mile markers here.

If it's too old, I'm gonna be mad at you.

But all right, fine.

No, it won't be pre-1980.

Okay.

So this one, we've got a, it's a,

it looks like a two-page ad.

The vehicle in question is very sinister looking.

It's dark, the headlights are on.

There's a road sign.

And then it says, with all its technological firsts,

it still comes down to seconds.

It took less than five seconds

to run zero to 60 on our test track.

And 13.06 seconds in the quarter mile.

Well, that's good.

A whirlwind power trip.

It's the new blank from Blank.

The Blank is the most, sorry,

this font is quite small,

is the most significant performance vehicle of the 90s.

So you are, you are getting a little, little hit there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Boasting 280 horsepower from an intercooled turbocharged

4.3 liter V6, handling, clean and precise.

The Blank is a first ever production pickup

with four-wheel anti-lock brakes,

plus there's on-road all-wheel drive,

performance, soon suspension and speed-rated tires.

You went too far.

You shouldn't have bleeped out more stuff.

Cyclone, give me another one.

Yes, okay, perfect.

I'm sitting here thinking,

who would have turbo 4.3 liter Vs?

What a bizarre engine.

Yeah, no, that, that, that, that was the easy one.

The slightly-

You should have a blanked-out pickup truck

and a couple other things, but all right.

All right, all right, here we go.

Here's the follow-up.

Yep.

This is a different one-page ad.

We've got the vehicle,

we're just looking at the passenger side.

There's a bunch of hubcaps on the wall behind it.

By the way, the Cyclone,

the most significant performance vehicle of the 90s.

Yes, that's why I like that ad,

because it's so absurd.

A lot of facts in these ads.

It's not even the most important performance vehicle

of the 90s in GM's lineup.

Like there's everything.

The CR1 and whatever.

Anyways, so this one says,

why follow the crowd when you can draw one of your own?

Okay.

In the race to Garner Greater Market Share,

the world's manufacturers of high-performance cars

have succeeded in creating a new class of automobile.

Stratosphericly priced two-seaters and four-seaters

declare that you have both the money

and the ability to follow the herd.

True, yeah.

Even once-called exotics are being cranked out

at such speeds that they too

are lately looking rather common.

Right.

Which leads us to the question.

If you're seeking a car that is truly special,

why end up driving a cliche?

The blank, an opportunity to out-distance the pack.

For the price of a high-performance car,

you should expect a perfectly made

handcrafted automobile that is truly individual.

We give you that.

Everything about the blank is designed

to encourage outstanding performance

in both driver and automobile.

Touch the accelerator and you will notice

responsive, not too dissimilar

from its Formula One brethren.

Its turbocharged power will rocket you

from zero to 60 somewhere around the five-second range.

In what editors of Motor Trend call,

quote, an F-16 on full afterburn.

And its Formula One-inspired double-wishbone suspension

will give you road prowess.

That, quote, in short, exemplifies the handling

and which one expects of a car carrying the blank badge.

You should find it reassuring that blank

is one of the few automotive companies

in the left that still creates each car by hand

in limited quantities to ensure that only the highest level

of performance, comfort, and reliability.

From its composite structure body shell

to its hand-lapped valves

to its hand-sewn leather interior

of carefully matched Conley hides,

each component is meticulously crafted

for exemplary performance down on the road

as well as on.

I don't know what that means.

Only this commitment of world mass production

can provide you with a car of thoroughbred feel

along with a warranty unusual for a car of such credentials.

Wow.

Two-year unlimited mileage, limited warranty.

Plus eight-year anti-corrosion coverage on the chassis.

But the cost of all the aforementioned performance

need not be so high.

As the editors of Motor Trend believe, quote,

it's an automotive, in the automotive of this strata,

the blank represents somewhat of a bargain

comparison shopped against its competition.

But who's exactly the competition?

Just look at the crowds.

Then call us at 1-800-BLANK

and we'll show you the fastest way

to attract a few crowds of your own.

For the few who know the difference, that's the ad.

Boy, that's really something.

See how they were wordy back then?

There's some red herrings in there.

Oh, are there?

Well, you mentioned the Formula One.

So you're thinking NSX, right?

But that's not hand-built and they never

would have claimed that it was.

No.

And then they're getting into Connolly Leather.

So that gives me an idea.

Is this from an American magazine or is this Bristol-Blenheim?

I swear to God, Frank, if this is a Bristol-Blenheim,

I'm going to kill you.

No, this was sold to North America.

This is a US market vehicle.

And as a reminder, it does say it's turbocharged power

will rocket you from 0 to 60 in somewhere around five seconds.

Yeah, that is a hint as well.

You think I didn't?

You think I'm not?

Come on.

Hey, you were talking NSX.

You were talking NSX.

Well, that but the turbocharged stuff came later.

Frank, I'm being honest.

That was like six minutes of copy and only about nine

words mattered.

Correct.

That's why they don't do it this way anymore.

Yeah.

I think that it's probably just based on all of that stuff,

what I would guess is it's a Bentley Turbo R.

Interesting.

But I don't know where the Formula One crap comes from.

OK.

Well, let me start.

It is not a Bentley Turbo R. OK.

As for a hint, and the Conley Leather hinted at this,

you are in the right country of origin.

Yeah.

But I mean, of course, I mean, I figured it was British.

But what other British cars at that era were turbocharged

and tried to claim that they were hand-built?

Certainly Jaguar wasn't doing any of that.

Could I lend you an obscure hint on this one?

If it's a Bristol, I'm going to kill him.

Well, here's the thing.

I don't think it is.

Chadwick doesn't know either.

I did not spill the beans onto one.

I have a strong idea.

He's your photo friend, though.

Babbling on about over there about Conley Leather.

He did mention the badge, right?

Frank, you mentioned something.

I forget.

Don't go back and read.

It's page 15, paragraph 7.

It's mentioned a badge.

And if I'm correct on this card,

that badge also showed up on some Suzu models.

You're thinking it's a Lotus?

I've got strong feelings.

The quote is, in short, exemplifies the handling

of what one expects of a car carrying a blank badge.

But so much of the ad was devoted to the luxury of the car.

It's hand-built with hand-leather valves.

Don't you want to stand out, Doug?

Don't you want to stand out?

This is a Lotus Esprit?

I don't know.

Is this the guess?

Yeah, OK.

Fine.

Yeah, this is.

The X180 Lotus Esprit.

They were trying to convince people

that it was something more than it was.

You know, I just did a video in the garage right before this

about courteous cars for $25,000.

You know, those Turbo Espris are like that money.

They're not that expensive.

Well, they're $25,000 to buy and another $25,000

to make both worthy and another $25,000.

You, of all people, are going to say that?

Are you out of your mind?

You got a Turbo Sprint behind you.

I mean, how much harder could it be?

I bet it's easier to find a Lotus mechanic.

Well, maybe.

There's not too many too many Suzuki Colfis mechanics.

Don't you agree that that ad makes it seem like Lotus

is trying to like reach a higher level demographic?

Yeah, they should have been.

There was no true advertisement.

Like that along with just the tenor of the ad is so British.

It's very British, even though that car is like very, you know,

like goes high performance.

We have we have a lot on the office right now.

We'll drive away and 100 or is it a Kia Alon?

Dude, if it was a Kia Alon, I'd buy it.

I wouldn't hold you about it.

You would, Frank, check out my new Kia Alon.

Do you think there are any of those Kia Alons, like really?

There's a few big.

I mean, we've all seen a couple,

like the same four photos that go around the Internet.

But do you think there are actually any of them?

Do you know what I mean?

Right. Or is it like the Bentley Dominator?

Yeah, I don't know.

I just write. There you go.

I've only got five car models up here

and we've we've now covered two of them.

Oh, boy, that's going to be that's going to be the next time we do this.

That'll be the game within the game, right?

Guess Doug's car models.

Fantastic. All right.

Well, I know we're right up against it.

Boy, before we we shamelessly promote what the hell we're up to.

Doug, do you have anything to shame, fully promote or shamelessly promote?

I don't, you know, I don't know.

I don't like to promote stuff.

And so I've always find it I always find it awkward.

Anyway, you go ahead.

Oh, great.

I find it weird to do that, but feel free to tell the people people can't see me.

So I'm more of this like voice in the void.

Why don't you tell the people what the hell we're doing and what you're doing?

Yeah, it's a benefit to everybody, man.

So a good sacrifice there.

No, thanks, guys, for tuning in.

This is APA podcast, another pointless automotive podcast.

Check us out wherever you listen to podcasts.

We're also on YouTube, barely in Instagram.

In an obscenely low amount.

That's pretty much it.

I don't know. That's about it, man.

That's all I got.

That's out.

Yeah, check us out.

We do we're doing we're doing the the Patreon thing now.

So Patreon dot com slash APA pod.

And Doug has already told us before we started recording that if we get

five thousand Patreon members, he'll come back on the pod with us.

And we'll all collectively try DMT together, which will be good.

So I'm looking forward to that.

Chadwick and Frank, the the most

the most stately named duo of any podcast,

short of one that covers the royal family.

Ah, it's befitting to cover Lotus cars with that namesake.

Yeah, yeah, right. Fantastic.

Well, Douglas has been swell.

Thanks. Thanks for jumping on with us.

Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

Of course, they're not dead yet.

Oh, boy. Exactly.

But before we go, you got to tell us what's

what's the candle scented like candle reveal one of those anthropology,

volcano candles, you know, those absolutely not.

That was a deep cut on candles right there.

You got to spend more time with your wife and look in the mall.

What's a mall?

Anyways, the mall is dead like the fun car.

Oh, all right. Well, goodbye. Later.

Episode #210 - Doug DeMuro & The Death of Fun Cars

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