Here's Why The Volkswagen ID.Buzz Has Flopped So Far

Hello, and welcome to the Truthbox Cars Podcast. I am Tim Healy, the Managing Editor, and this

week we're discussing the automotive industry in the Volkswagen ID buzz of Tom Mapell from

Consumer Guide. T-Tech contributor Matthew Guide, I discussed motor oil and I talked you

through NASCAR at Teledega. But first, buying a car should feel secure. Start to finish.

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Cars, allspallout.com. We're your home for car reviews, car news, and so much more.

Here on the Truthbox Cars Podcast, we are always talking about the stuff that we use

in our homes, in our cars, and on our cars, as the case may be. And we have, as almost

always, Matthew Guide, T-Tech contributor with us. Matthew, how are you doing tonight?

Hey, I'm doing pretty good. How about you?

I'm doing well. So, you're in the midst of some travel. So, for our listeners, you know,

the audio quality might be a little different than what we're used to. But Matthew, thank

you for taking the time out of the busy travel schedule to talk about, you wanted to talk

about motor oil today, right?

Yeah, motor oil is something, you know, that's always present in our cars. But sometimes

we don't think about it enough. And sometimes I don't think about it at all, much to

the dismay of my car's engine.

I hope you're changing your oil on time, though.

Exactly, right? So, that's what I was doing this weekend. And oftentimes, you know, I

just, I try not to rely on the light that's in the, you know, that's on the dashboard

in the Challenger, simply because I know that if I leave it, it will stay in there

for far too long in terms of time versus mileage, because I don't drive that car

a ton, right? So, when I was at the Auto Parts store, I was looking at the different oils

that were available, you know, whether synthetic or conventional. And then I thought,

well, hey, you know, maybe eBay Motors has this type of stuff as well, because it's not

something that I immediately think of when I think of eBay Motors. And sure

enough, they did. They had the proper weight and the proper viscosity that I was

looking for and the brand, because I'm a nerd, just like most of us who are

listening to this podcast, when it comes to all things cars. And we ended up with

ended up with a good name brand motor oil. And at a pretty good price, you know,

it's something I do find that eBay Motors is really, really good for tools. So,

like the, we've talked about them on the podcast in the past, like talking

about the oil filter wrenches and things of that nature. eBay Motors is great

for that stuff. This is my first time buying actual oil from it. So, I had

nothing wrong with it. But it is certainly quicker to just pop out to the shops.

There was no price advantage, but there was no disadvantage either. So that's

okay. Yeah, yeah. So oil, like you said, is something we don't think about a

lot. But, you know, it's obviously the lifeblood of your engine. It's

something that everyone should think about whether you are using synthetic

or not. As you mentioned, time and mileage both matter. So, you know,

people say, I should get my oil changed. And I'm not going to get

into the philosophical debates of how often you should have it changed. You

know, my father, being a baby boomer, believes it should be 3,000 miles,

no matter what. Newer cars, what's that? Religiously, yes. Newer cars,

they'll tell you 5,000 to 7,500 miles, depending on the car maker in

the car. Being a dealership, a former dealership service employee, but

not a mechanic, I was at the desk. I would tell you your owner's manual

probably is fine. There is a bit of a fine print thing that they always

say heavy duty. And then if you read the heavy duty print, most of us

do heavy duty driving if you're even stop and go going to work. So I

would just, you know, go with your car's oil indicator if it has

one, go with your owner's manual. If you really want to change it

more often, it won't hurt the car, but it will hurt your wallet and

you may not, you may be wasting money. But, and also go by time

too, you know, it's 5,000 miles and you're looking at five

months, 3,000 miles is about three months. So, and so on and so

forth. So, yeah, definitely just make sure you give your, your oil

a lot of thought and check it every time you get gas or every other

time you get gas, check the dipstick. If it's especially if

you have an easier car to do it, a lot of newer cars make it

difficult.

Absolutely. It's something that's the last art of checking the

oil every time you fill up, right? And but it's very, very

valuable because you can catch sometimes problems before

they become expensive, just by simply checking these fluids

that are in your car and being, I don't know, of a mindset to do

that really saves you a lot of money in the long run. Not a lot

of people, you're exactly right. And some cars don't even have

dipsticks anymore. There's some BMWs that don't, but you

know, right? But there are, you know, a lot of cars that do

and they make it, you know, depending on the brand, easier to

check than others. But I do think taking the effort, you're

exactly right. Taking the effort to check your oil. If not

every time you fill up, then every other time once month at

least, just to see that, you know, that if there's any

problems that are brewing that you catch them before they've

become expensive.

Yeah, I'm glad eBay Motors is another option to go to for

oil, because so many people think of it as all I need to

go to the parts store or all when I'm getting gas, I'll

run into the convenience store and get it. And that's great.

But it's nice to have more options to get it,

especially in today's day and age when almost anything can be

shipped within a day.

Almost anything ships within a day, you're exactly right. And

the type of thing that it's not my first thought.

Traditionally, when I when I look for that product, but I

think that it's a really, really good alternative. And stuff

ships within a day, because it's not, it's not the type of

product where, you know, you're buying it every single day

or every single week, even so if you're buying it three or

four times a year, that's about it. So and I do I have

found that shipping is actually all right, which is weird,

because it's heavy, you know, so there's enough, I guess,

enough baked in there that they can cover the shipping cost.

So I like that too.

Yeah, is there anything else? I mean, it's obviously a

fairly straightforward topic. It's not really a safety

issue as long as you're not drinking the oil and

changing the oil yourself as a separate topic, because even

if you even if you do rely on your dealer or

mechanic to change the oil, you can fill your oil by

yourself in most cases. So changing your own oil is a

separate topic we can cover another time, which we

probably will because we definitely have oil filters

oil filter wrenches. If we have not talked about that in

the past, we will in the future. But is there anything

else you want to add to this discussion before we

go ahead and wrap the segment?

Nothing I could think of other than to say that your

advice is spot on with making sure to read your

manual to make sure that you've got the proper

weight viscosity and the proper amount to because

some smaller cars might take only four quarts and

others might take seven. So read your manual, make

sure you got what you need and you can get it from

eBay Motors.

Yeah, and I would add to that too. Like you said, the

weight matters. And for those who don't understand

weight, I'm not going to go we don't have time to go

into the specifics is not I would love to do an

auto shop one on one. But we just don't have

that time. But the weight matters, thinner oil

flows better in cold weather. I have that

correct, right? Yeah. Yeah, think about molasses,

right? So so thinner oil flows better in in

colder weather, which some cars you made to

switch weight for summer and winter if you live

in a place where it snows. Although I think

newer cars is not nearly the case as often. I

feel like you know, I think my age is showing

and thinking of cars from the 80s and 90s. And

then the other thing too with with oil that

I would just recommend to with people is

outside of checking it every so often and

making sure you have the right weight. It

makes sure like you said, Matthew, you have

the right amount. I learned this the hard

way owning a Fox body Mustang back in the day.

I didn't it didn't actually happen to me

personally. But I knew a young man who was in

high school who had a job draining oil out of

cars at a quick loop place. And he didn't

understand or didn't know it's not his

fault. No one told him. He didn't know

that Fox body Mustangs with the five

liter V8 had to drain plugs. Yes. Because

there was a suspension cross member in the

way. Very few cars had that. Yeah. He was

probably overfilling any any Fox body he

had in the back. Back at that time, there

are many Fox bodies on the road. So long

story short, I always use as an example

because it's the only one I know of, but

they're true. There's others. There are

cars that you may think only take three

quarts because I only they may have two

drain plugs. So they may take six quarts.

So again, back to the owner's manual

there and and that's that's a huge

thing too. So just check your owner's

manual like you said. Absolutely.

Some of the best advice out there.

All right, Matthew, thank you so much for

your time here on the truth. Our cars

podcast. This has been this week's

stuff we use. Thank you, Matthew.

Thank you.

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On this week's Truth About Cars

podcast, we are talking to Tom

Appel from Consumer Guide

Automotive. He is the publisher

of Consumer Guide.

Tom, how are you doing today?

Tim, I'm well. Thank you.

Yeah, thanks for hopping on.

So what we're talking about today

is kind of your take on the

greater overall state of the

eating market. And we've talked

about it as recently as just a

couple of weeks ago with with

the drive.com. So I kind of want

to see if your take meshes up

with with what we talked about

with the drive or if it's a

little bit different. And then

also, you recently tested the

ID buzz, which I have not

driven in about a year.

I tested it about a year ago,

was one of the first journalists

to get my hands on it. And

then, at least in the Chicago

area anyway. And then I wanted to

hear your thoughts on the buzz

and also if there's any tie in

between that vehicle and the

larger state of the EV market.

So let's start with kind of

where your take is on EVs,

especially as we're now moving

into October and no more EV tax

credit. And there's a few other

things going on. But kind of

what's your take on the

overall state of electric

vehicles in this country?

Yeah, we're at a really weird

sort of calm before the storm

moment, I think, as everyone

now knows, the federal tax

credit expired. So we

don't, we don't have a sense

of where this is going to go.

Although I think everyone

expects that EV sales are

going to drop now. And there

is precedent, of course, from

Germany. We know that last

year, Germany had a tax

credits, I think of 5,000

Euro or might have been 6,000

Euro. But when they drop those

EV sales in the country fell

by about 27%. And I think

that that's a logical number

that we can expect to see

here. Now that said,

manufacturers have had some

time to plan for this. And

there are some interesting

affordable vehicles coming

out. For example, the new

Nissan Leaf is no longer, it

no longer looks like a shoe

on wheels, it looks like a

small sporty crossover. And

it's priced really right, I

think for the market, starting

at about 30 grand right now

for 300 miles of range, we

have a new Chevrolet Bolt

coming out that should

compete very directly with

that. And the relatively

affordable Chevy Equinox, for

example, at 35 grand is

selling very well too. Plus

Tesla just launched a very

affordable, no, not very

affordable, a slightly more

affordable version of the

Model Y. That's out

affordable by Tesla

standards. Yes. Yeah, yeah.

They led everyone to believe

that was going to be a 30

grand car. It's a 40 grand

car. What are you going to

do? And then when they

just cut the prices on the

Ionic five, which is a

delightful car. Yeah, I'm

sorry to say I Ionic five.

Yeah, it's a very good car.

Absolutely. So so the market

is resetting slightly for

a world without incentives,

and there's still state

incentives. And those can be

helpful. And there will be

manufacturer rebates. But I

think that these lower

price cars are probably now

going to be the point of

entry. And we've gotten

passed for manufacturers

needing to sell really

expensive cars that kind of

bury the cost of the EV

technology. We're entering

this phase where it looks

like manufacturers are going

to either make money on

small EVs or pretend to.

Yeah, yeah. So do you

expand on that just a little

bit? Oh, sure. The one of

the crazy things about that

is that General Motors is

now claiming and I don't

know if we can ever know

this for sure that they

make money on EVs, which

is really good news because

they sell it off a lot of

them now General Motors was

the second most popular EV

producer through Q three

this year. Just after

Tesla. So they've got a lot

of product out there too.

And they've got these

Cadillacs five different

Cadillac EVs right now.

So hopefully they are

making money on these

because I think shareholders

like to see that. But that's

part of what drives a lot

of these decisions. And

manufacturers need to show

that they're making money

on these EVs or at least

start to show that they're

not losing money. So yeah,

there's the customers and

then there's shareholders.

Yeah, and two different

goals, right? Yeah. And often

contradictory. Absolutely.

Which is one reason why I would

never last more than once one

of many reasons why I would

never want to be the boss of a

car company or why I would

never last. Oh, yeah. Day as

the boss of a car company.

What an altar factory. Yeah.

What's that? What an altar

factory. I don't I have no

idea. Yeah, all those

different different

stakeholders different goals

pulling different directions.

So yeah, we got to show

automatically for show that

they are going to lose money on

EVs. So you actually drove a

very interesting one that I

think I've driven this vehicle

as well. The Volkswagen ID bus

and I want to hear a little bit

more from you about it. I worry

about that vehicle worries

by the wrong word, but I'm

curious to see if that vehicle

will hurt Volkswagen in the

long run in terms of I don't

think it's selling super well

despite the fact that it looks

really cool. And it's very

spacious. I think there are

two problems with that vehicle.

One is it's priced a little

high, particularly for the

upper trims. And I think the

other thing is as an EV only,

even though it's range is

fairly acceptable. I think

some people are going to pass

on it because they they're

not quite ready for an EV

only powertrain for a vehicle.

That's really meant to be a

road trip kind of car. So I

want to hear what your take

was after you drove it.

Yeah, I know, Tim, I think

you hit it on the head and

how you perceive the ID

Buzz, I think has a lot to do

with what you think it is. If

you are strictly comparing this

vehicle to other minivans and

let's forget the drive chain

through a moment and just

minivan to minivan, this

vehicle kind of fails. And

that's because it is very

expensive relative to other

minivans, right? The cheapest

you can get into an ID Buzz

is about 65 grand into a Kia

Carnival for 38 grand. So too

much money, I think for

most minivan shoppers. But on

the other hand, this vehicle

is just a wonderfully fresh

design and the interior is

bright, open and airy. It is

fun to drive. It is quick. It

is entertaining. Everything

about this car works really

well, except for, and as you

noted, the range. I don't

think the range can work for

families. And then finally,

its stubby shape hurts it

because there's no space

behind the third row when

the third row is in place,

which means that if you are a

five or six person family and

you want to go away for the

weekend, I don't think you've

got space back there for

luggage for six people. So

there were some practicality

issues here, which are

a shame. Now, if you don't

look at this as a minivan,

but if you look at it, this

sort of a style, boutique, fun

vehicle that happens to be

kind of cutting edge

electric, it's very

successful. However, it

hasn't been successful in the

US marketplace yet. Through

Q3, they sold about 5000

models. And that's the

same period of time Toyota

sold 75,000 CN a minivan. So

I don't know how Toyota, I'm

sorry, how Honda, I did it

again. I don't know how Volkswagen

is gauging success here, but

I suspect there isn't success

here. And that's a shame. Now,

they may be bringing in a

less expensive model that

could help, but they hurt

themselves too, because you

can't even get the fun

colors on the cheapest

versions of this van, which

actually, I think for most

people who want to buy

this makes it even more

expensive.

Yeah, I think you could write

a book, any one of us in

this industry could write a

book of vehicles that were

from a design and performance

aspect, just fine or even

really good, and were killed

or hurt by marketing

pricing or as you mentioned,

you know, kind of making the

cooler features or in this

case, cooler colors

unavailable to the lower

cost, the lower cost models

of lower cost terms. And I

think too, you know, I drove

the I have driven the buzz in

about a year, but I drove it

twice. I drove it on the

launch program in the Bay Area

in October. It's almost a

year ago. And then I drove

it here in Chicago, pretty

quick after I was one of the

first wasn't it was just

kind of luck of the draw.

Wasn't anything special that I

did. But it was one of the

first local automotive

journalists to get a chance

to test it for a week. And I

got a lot of attention for

it. A lot of people taking

pictures, particularly because

the testing that I had was

that really bright orange

color. Yeah. But I kind of had

the same impressions that you

had. I I didn't pack a bunch

of people into it. Didn't do

a road trip. Didn't I don't

have a big family or

anything like that. But I'm

not even sure if I did

groceries in it. I think I

did do a grocery run in it,

but you're right. The there

is not a lot of space

behind that third row, just

not a ton for two people on

a road trip on a short

road trip, you know, to

a camp to a campground an

hour away or a hotel or

Airbnb an hour from their

home. That might work smaller

suitcases, girl shoes, I

think was okay. But you know,

it's like you said, there was

not a lot of room in the

third row. The range is okay,

but it should be better if

you want this to be a road

trip vehicle. And then it is

fun to drive. The interior

feels very airy, like you

said, a lot of visibility,

which is huge, much easier

to navigate in traffic than

almost anything else on the

road, that kind of

visibility. And then the

space with the exception of

the space behind the third

row that we just talked

about, I think the space

setup is is otherwise

really efficient, really

well set up. But it's just

like you said, who is that

vehicle for then? As you

said, if you're just a

minivan family, you know, a

mom and dad and two kids

who need a minivan to run

a school and soccer

practice, why spend $30,000

on an EV when either a

hybrid or gas engine

minivan is available to you

for $38,000 to $40,000. And

most of them are better at

that at that particular

task. You mentioned the key

carnival. I would also

argue that the current

Honda Odyssey and Chrysler

Pacifica are better

minivans as well. And

Pacifica can be has a

hybrid. I have not driven

the newest Sienna. But

yeah, I think that the

buzz I don't understand

who the buyer is.

Yeah, and I think that's

the question mark here. And

interestingly, I don't know

if it being a minivan

kind of hurts it because

it's being compared to

other minivans. It's this

retro vehicle, right? It's

based on the old Volkswagen

type two. And I think it

doesn't I think the design

is brilliant. I think if

you look at this, even if

you don't care about cars,

you understand the heritage,

right? You understand

absolutely a throwback

design. So they nailed

it, right? This is a

cool looking car. It's

and it's fun to see on

the road and people wave. And

I think compared it to

other minivans, which it

invites, right? It's a

minivan, unfortunately

hurts it. I think the

people that this vehicle

works for are relatively

well-hilled people that

have kids in high school. And

this is a family second

car, maybe even the third

car, you know? And electric

is so easy as a third car,

right? You get a charger,

you make sure the kids

remember to charge it and

no problem. But as a

primary car, it's a

little problematic 200. I

think my test car was

good for 231 miles of

range. And that's just

a little thing. Now that

said, as you know, as a

fellow Chicagoan, we've

had a really mild summer. And

I had, when I tested this

vehicle, temperatures were

in the 70s the whole time.

And I got vastly better

than that range. I was

closer to 275 miles. So

these, these, I think these

NPA numbers are a little

conservative, but that said

they are going to get

crimped down when it

gets very cold out.

Yeah. And honestly, we've

had more hot weather in

the fall than we did in

the summer. So

yeah, it's been a very

weird year.

Weather wise, it's yeah,

until just a day or two

ago here. It was in the

90s and 80s here in

September and October. So

kind of kind of weird. But

yeah, you're right, the

weather plays a part. Obviously

when we those of us

journalists invited in the

launch drove it in the Bay

area, which is typically

pretty chilly this time of

year. And it was, if I

remember correctly, pretty

cold the day that I drove

it, it was standard San

Francisco weather, overcast

marine layer, needed a

jacket, probably the 50s and

60s. It was a little more

pleasant at night, a little

warmer at night, actually,

but those who know that

area know the city is a

little usually a little bit

warmer than. Oh, no, sometimes

you cross the Golden Gate

Bridge and it's actually

warmer on that side. But

long story short, the range

numbers we were seeing were

probably impacted a little

bit by chilly air. And then

when I tested the vehicle

here in Chicago, we had

pretty standard fall

weather. If I remember

correctly, again, it's

been about a year. And I

don't recall the range

off my head that the

test car was showing me,

but it does sound like it

was about 230 or 240. That

number sounds about right.

And I think 260 is the

factory claim for max. So

that's a vehicle that needs

to have at least 200 miles

range to work, I think, in

my opinion. Yeah, and

entirely because it's

being compared to other

minivans. I think you

lose your minivan audience

on price here in range,

unfortunately. And I don't

know how committed Volkswagen

is to this vehicle in the

US market. As you know,

we waited what, two years,

three years for this

vehicle to get here. And

there was all sorts of

infighting politically

between Volkswagen in the

US and Volkswagen in

Germany about what versions

of the vehicle we were

going to get. And there

was a short

it took forever. And so

some of the fun went out

of that anyway. Although

once it showed up, people

still loved it. This is

also a vehicle, I think

that sells itself on a

test drive. But preventing

people from test driving

it is the price,

unfortunately. And if

Volkswagen is committed

to selling this thing here,

they might have to come up

with a trim level that slots

under their $61,000

pro s base model and

probably make the fun

colors more available.

Yeah, I think it's part of

it. I also think as we've

been talking about traffic

or who the best buyer for

this vehicle is, and you

mentioned a well healed

family with older

children who don't need

car seats and who don't

need a first car through

the second or third car.

I think to the other

buyer for this vehicle

might be

someone my age, older

millennial, or maybe someone

in the Gen X, or even

younger baby boomer range

who remembers the vehicle,

the original Volkswagen

Vans and someone who wants

to go camping. But again,

with the range being what

it is, they can't go

camping super far from home.

Unless they have access

to a lot of chargers

on the route. So but I

could see I could see a

dual income, no kids

or dual income older

children out of the house

couple, you know, using

this vehicle to do

some light camping.

It can't go off road at all,

really. But if you want

to go to a campsite where

it's just, you know, you

park and then you walk

and set up or you park

and that sort of thing,

maybe, but, you know, even

that seems like more like

someone who's really kind

of stretching for

nostalgia. And the vehicles

limitations will make it

hard to use for that purpose.

So even then, I don't I

don't know if that makes

sense. I kind of make I

think I just talk about

stuff on my own point.

But yeah. No, but I think

you make a point. And I

think there is a late Gen X

baby boomer appreciation

thing going on here, too.

And I could see some boomers

buying these, but boomers

are aging out. Yeah, you

describe my folks pretty

well. I just lost my dad

last year. But oh, thank

you. Yes. But but when

they were a little bit

younger, my folks loved

to hit the highway. And

they go on long rambling

drives on Saturdays and

Sundays. And sometimes

they just got a hotel room

and you can't really do

that with this without

knowing where you're

going to find charging

because the range is a

little limited. But the

nostalgia point is there.

Now, I've got a question

for you about the

Stelja marketing, too. And

we all remember the new

Beetle that showed up in

very, very, very late

in the Beetle after a while.

That was 20 years ago.

Is there that much

nostalgia interest for

stuff from the 60s and 70s

still? Or is that group

aging out? Like, that's

old to me and I'm old.

Yeah, that's a good

question. Vegan elder

millennial. I think it

depends on the car. Beetles

were so ubiquitous, even

for people my age. And we

already knew they were

classics. You know, when I

first became a car person

and when I was 12 or 13

years old, I was already

really aware of the

original Beetle. And it

was one of the few non

muscle cars that kind of

broke through from the

60s and 70s. So I

think I think there's

in the beetle has such

a distinctive shape that I

think the beetle always

have some appeal if it

walks like it brings it

back again in a year or

two. And it has the same

basic shape that it did

for the past one of the

discontinued in 2019, 2018,

something like that.

Right. Yeah, I forget

the exact year, but they

had it from like early

2000s until just four or

five years ago. They came

back to the same basic

shape. And then just

maybe a little bit

different headlights or

taillights to make it

a little more modern or

maybe different interior. I

think they would probably

get another boost of

nostalgia, at least at

first. I think part of

the problem with the more

modern Beetle was it

became too common. It was

no longer a nostalgic

boost. It was no longer

nostalgia. Now it's just

hey, a lot of these cars

on the road. Yeah, it was

just ubiquitous. Yeah,

that's the problem with

any retro thing. You

know, we see Ford do

that with the Mustang.

And then Ford has kind

of had the Mustang shape

has been sort of retro

and inspired for gosh,

I don't even know how

long now, since 2000,

2005, something like that.

And they've quietly

modernized the exterior

to make it so it's always

that kind of same shape,

but it's less, less

retro on the outside.

And then finally a year

or two ago, the interior

became less retro, moved

away from those air. Well,

I think they still have

a little bit of influence

there, but they moved away

from those airplane style

switches and they went

with they went, they

moved the center

council, they now

they have the big

screen in the center

council, like every other

car. But they're

also playing some games

with the Mustang. And I

noticed it's the last

of my drove on the Midwest

Automotive Media Association

Spring Rally this past year.

The they had a dark horse

there, we're not allowed

to take it on the track

because of the poor weather,

but I drove it on the street.

They have the gauges now

give you the option of nostalgia.

You can get Fox body,

you can get a Fox body gauge

by pressing a button.

And it's pretty close

to the original Fox body,

a little bit different

just to accommodate

modern times.

And you can also go

with the original gauges,

digital reproduction, of

course, from the 1964

Mustang. And the other

version was the 1994

Cobra gauges, the black

kind of white. So Ford

is still keeping some nostalgia

alive in there. And then,

of course, you've got vehicles

that have never stopped

being nostalgic, the G

Brangler. And then, of

course, the Bronco comes

back and it's it harkens

back to the original.

And then they've been

selling retro additions

about the Bronco and

Bronco Sport. And now

you've got the Scout

coming back. And it's a

modern take on a classic

vehicle. So to answer your

question, I think

nostalgia, these are all

vehicles that for my age

mostly missed us. But our

parents talked about them

and our parents drove them

and we had toy car versions

of them. And we saw them

on the street because they

were still around, even

if they were getting older.

So I don't know, for my

age, I think nostalgia

still plays. But I think

in the Bronco might run

into this as this current

generation starts to age

and it's been on the road

for four years already now.

Nostalgia can be a tricky

line to walk is when a car

sells a lot. And it's even

if it's a popular car in

the Broncos, definitely

very popular. It's I see

them every day in

multitudes. But at some

point, the design are

an nostalgic design can

start to become a little

too common and it kind of

loses its luster. On the

other hand, and maybe

this is maybe this is one

reason why the Broncos

still sells so well three

years or four years into

it. Some of these designs

are really are timeless.

So they can be nostalgic

but also they become

common and people still

like them. So it's a really

tricky line to walk. I'm not

quite sure the answer is

there. Yeah, I'm with you.

I'm glad you mentioned

Scout. I kind of forgot

about that. I think of all

the nostalgia throwback

designs we're going to

see in the near future.

Scout is probably the most

tenuous and I'm I'm

excited about the brand. I'm

sure Volkswagen can do

what they need to do

there. I don't know how

many people recall Scout

and are sure almost no

one has ever been in

one. And I'm not sure

how many people know

they've seen one.

I'm not sure I've ever

driven one. I know I've seen

a few I went through a phase

of high school where I was

really interested in them

and kind of learned a lot

about them. And then I

have in the past year or

two I don't think I've

seen it recently. Being in

the city itself you see

people street park certain

cars and sometimes you

start seeing the same car

over and over again. And

you realize the guy the

person lives here in the

car sticks out because

it's a unique car. Somebody

had a scout that had

seen parked with the

doors and windows off

which is probably not

putting any any personal

valuables anyone's reach.

No. But I've seen I've seen

that vehicle a few times

over the past couple

years. I've not seen it

recently. So that's

probably my most recent

encounter with Scouts.

But yeah, Scouts are kind

of a niche thing. But I

have seen the new Scout up

close and it does look

really good. I just don't

know how it'll drive.

Scout was weird even

when it was new because

Scout didn't really have

consumer facing showrooms.

Scout was a was a

commercial vehicle.

Part of the National

Harvester. Yeah. Yeah. And

they sold a lot of

medium duty stuff. And the

Scouts were really there

to sort of sell the people

who are going to

construction sites. But you

bought them at a dealership

that was not set up for

consumers. And I had a

buddy who's dad actually

wanted to buy one. And

the funny thing was

towards the end I think

they wrapped up consumer

production of the Scout

1980. Fuel economy was

a real big issue at the

time. So international was

buying Nissan diesels

for cylinder diesels to

slap into Scouts and they

were profoundly expensive.

Oh, I'm sure. Yeah. And I

remember my buddy's dad

drive it. It was so slow.

It's so expensive. And he

just went and bought a

Bronco. It was just easier.

Yeah. Yeah. I think I do

think Scout will will

appeal unless the market

changes great greatly the

next year or two before

they launch the EV only

thing. I believe they're

EV only at launch. That's

going to hold some folks

back just because EV

adoption, even though it's

getting better is still

going to be slow for quite

some time until infrastructure

gets better. But I think

there's enough popularity

with off road vehicles

that I think the Scout

will launch fairly well

even though as you say,

it was kind of an each

vehicle when it was around

and not everyone may

remember it. I still think

it's going to launch.

Okay. I think I think

you're right Tim. I think

that has to be the brand

off road capability and

ruggedness has to be the

brand. And they've already

talked about pricing and

they're not going for

luxury pricing, right? It's

sort of near luxury or

well, Wranglers and Broncos

are expensive. Yeah. So they

can probably make money at

those price points. But they

do need to be really good

off road. And I don't

correct me if I'm wrong.

There isn't really a serious

electric off road

manufacturer yet. Is there

not electric only obvious

there are four way versions

of right several different

Jeep models. I don't think

Ford has offered anything

in the Broncos. Yeah, I think

they're so nice only on

both those on the

both powertrains. We're

really waiting for

all but we're waiting on

the Jeep recon really.

And that's yeah. Yeah.

And I'm not sure if that

will launch before

after Scout. So

the problem of EVF

roading is where do you

charge if you run out

on the Rubicon?

That's a big, big

right now. They haven't

figured out a way that Jerry

can electricity. I think

there actually are some

companies working on it.

So I know we joke. I think

they're actually I feel

like I've talked to a few

people who have been

working on something like

this. But nothing has

really come to market yet.

No, although

the things like the

Rubicon trailer pretty

short, but you use up

so much power off roading.

Yeah, you have to go

in the full range. And the

problem is the range you used

to get to the off road.

You know, unless you can

charge right before, you know,

for example, if you're in an

off road park and the off road

park is near a town, that's

not so big. Such a big deal.

You can charge in town.

You have less than a mile to

drive the off road park.

You have enough charge to

bop around all day.

Unless you're using a ton

of torque getting on getting

unstuck or something, you

probably if the weather is

favorable, you're probably

not using up that all that

much juice. You probably have

enough juice to get through

your day and charge again

before going home.

The problem is when you are in

the middle of nowhere in the

western part of the United

States where just to get to

an off road trail can be a

30 or 40 mile drive.

Yeah, and you can't put

kilowatts in a can,

unfortunately.

No.

But yeah, just kind of

swing it back to what jumped

off this direction to answer

your nostalgia question.

I'm very I'm very kind of

mixed on. I think it

really just depends on the

vehicle.

Yeah, the Camaro was

interesting, too, right?

That was kind of a short

lived experience.

And they went back to the

first generation of the

Camaro, which was a great

looking car. And you know,

the the latest version of

the Camaro was great looking

too. Couldn't see out of it.

Yeah. Oh, no. And if you

hated someone, then maybe

you try to put them in the

backseat.

The Mustang is infinitely more

practical.

The backseat in the

Mustang is not much better,

but you're right.

Yeah, it is better, just

not by much.

But I don't know how many

people actually understood

that the new Camaro was

supposed to look like the

original 67.

Yeah, that side, it was great

looking.

Yeah, it was, it was for sure.

Tom, I want to go back to

what started this

conversation, the EV market.

Is there anything you didn't

get to that you want to add

that maybe you have an insight

on with the EVs that we

haven't really touched on

because whenever time we have

an EV conversation on this

podcast, we tend to go over

the same topics over and

over. I'm just wondering if

there's anything you've

caught in your work that

kind of no one else's

really has really explored.

I had a conversation with

my podcast co-host

Jill Simonillo recently.

This was on air.

This is two episodes ago

if people want to hear it.

Episode 294.

But Jill was talking about

the launch of the Nissan Leaf

and one of the interesting

things about the leaf was

how they're going to position

and market this vehicle.

It is entry level more or

less, but it does not look

like a crossover, which I

think is going to be a huge

leap for acceptance.

But one of the interesting

things that Nissan mentioned

is that the leaf is really

kind of a second generation

EV, maybe third generation,

depending on how you look at

it, and that it is designed

and marketed for people who

have already owned EVs.

And that's why they're not

trying too hard in upper

trim levels to hit big

mileage range because they

believe that those shoppers

understand what kind of range

they need.

Interesting point.

I don't know if that's just

an excuse for not hitting

certain range targets,

but I kind of get it.

And the leaf is going to be

affordable.

It's kind of good looking.

It's going to be accessible

and to be available in all 50

states.

And I don't think all dealers

really took the leaf seriously

in previous generations.

No, but I like the idea

that there is this second

generation of EV owners.

And there's a number out

there, too, that the

acceptance rates, acceptance

rate of EVs is about 80 percent.

And I forgot where that came

from. It might have been

JD Power, it might have

been Polk, but that

means that four out of five

people who owned an EV, you

know, are willing to go into

another EV.

So there's momentum here,

I believe.

And even if things slow down

because of the incentives,

people are on the road,

they're using EVs, they're

using charging stations.

And I think that this is

really the base we need

to move forward.

There has to be an audience

out there that is happy

with this product, with

these products and talk

about them with their

neighbors, talk about them

with people at the health

club.

And, you know, they're

doing OK with them and that

the whole process of getting

a charger installed in your

house didn't totally

suck, you know, because

it sounds like a huge headache.

And I'm sure it's at least

a little headache.

But once it's installed,

you have it forever.

Yeah, at least until you move.

Yeah, right.

Yeah. So I think with the

leaf, I think the big

thing there is I think

you hit a bunch of things

right on the head.

It's going to be much

less odd looking,

which I think is

huge for them.

I think I do, too.

I think Nissan getting away

from Chattimo and finally

joining the rest of the world

with the North American

charging standard is huge.

I think it's going to be a big

selling point for the leaf.

And I think the price

and the price in the range

make a lot of sense.

My only real beef of the leaf

is it's not particularly

fun to drive, but I don't

think most leaf buyers

care about that.

Probably not.

No, I think that's that

audience. I think that if you

are a repeat buyer, you know,

it might be your second car.

It could be your first car

if you're single and you live

near work or something.

But yeah, I don't know if I

think you're still kind of

into the EV thing more

than the driving thing.

Yeah. And honestly, I think

the leaf, the range, at

least in the top trim levels

is enough that you don't

need to charge every day

if you're just cleaning the

working back and your commute

is not super long.

It's actually surprising how

far two hundred and fifty

miles of range actually is.

You know, and I have test cars

dropped off with about an 80

percent charge, and there's like

two hundred and thirty miles

there. I never go through two

hundred and thirty miles in a

week. And I try.

I usually don't either.

And that said, I always try

to charge EVs just

and go through the experience.

And I've had some really good

charging experiences lately, too,

which I think is the kind of

thing that is kind of

smoothie the way for better

EV acceptance moving forward.

Yeah, I think we've talked

about this before you and I

have. I know I've talked

about it on the podcast in

general. I think once EV

charging becomes easier to

access and much faster, I

think that'll be the that'll

do that'll do more than

anything else to get people

to buy EVs, particularly

people who can't buy a home

charger, who live in

multi unit buildings,

apartment buildings and

condo buildings. I think

that and then just dropping

at the sticker prices will

be will will really

juice that market.

Yeah, I think so, too.

I intended. Exactly.

What's happening to now?

The manufacturers are going

to drag their feet on this,

but they're not going to give

up on EVs. I think everyone

in the industry believes that

we're eventually going to go

all EV. It's just what makes

sense. And eventually, green

legislation is going to catch

up with us and kind of

force us to do that anyway.

So it's going to happen.

It's going to take way more

time than we thought.

California is not going to

sell 100% EVs by 2045.

No, not in decade from now.

No, and neither is the EU.

That's not going to happen.

And it's a bomber and I

appreciate the enthusiasm,

but it's just going to take more

time. We are making a monumental

shift. We're changing drive

trains. And to some extent,

this is going to hurt consumers

because there's going to be a

little less choice on both

sides of the powertrain divide

because manufacturers are using

up resources building both.

So we are going to see fewer

trim levels on either side

of this. But ultimately, this

is a good thing for

everybody. It's just going to

take a long time.

And, you know, on behalf

of the industry, I apologize

for the confusion.

Yeah, well, you know, like

you said, it's going to be

confusing. And then we leave a

couple of minutes left.

So I'm just going to add my

quick two cents to that.

And then we'll wrap it.

You're right. We're not going

to see EV. We're not going to

see all EV anytime soon.

I also don't think we'll ever

be 100% EV. I think the

internal combustion engine

will stick around for

specific uses as long as

it's as long as it's

legal, which in my mind

would be certain truck use

heavy duty trucks.

And maybe certain niche sports

cars or maybe they'd be

compromised where you could

sell an internal combustion

engine Mustang, but maybe

it's a hybrid power trainer

or mild hybrid, something

like that. But low selling

sports cars might be able to

keep the internal combustion.

Maybe there's a carve out

for all you only sell, you

know, X amount of these

vehicles in a year. Anyway,

the internal combustion engine

is not going to hurt.

That level is not going to

really pollute much. Okay, we'll

keep it around or auto

auto racing as well. Auto

racing may stick with the

I know NASCAR has been

showing EV prototypes and I

know there are some electric

vehicle racing series out

there, but I can still see

the I can see the internal

combustion engine sticking

around and racing for a while

unless there is one possible

game changer that could throw

us completely off and that's

synthetic fuels. If that ever

does happen, whether

synthetic fuels are produced

that are cheap and don't

pollute, that could keep

the ice around for a long

time. But we all have time

to get into that one today

unfortunately. No, no, but

cheap is key there and they

haven't hit that target. It

would need to be as cheap or

cheaper than current gas,

of course. Yeah. So yeah, so

another good wide range of

conversation time. That's one

reason we love having you on

is because we might start with

one topic, but then we

branch out and hit other

industry topics. And I think

that's a really good way to

approach this podcast. So Tom,

thank you so much for your

time. It's Tom Appel from

Consumer Guide, the publisher

of Consumer Guide Automotive.

Tom, thank you so much.

Tim, it was a pleasure to

talk to you again. Thank you.

Here on the Truth About Cars

podcast, we're always

talking NASCAR. And

generally speaking, we

usually have T-Tech

contributor Matthew Guy

with me. I'm Tim Healy, of

course, managing editor, but

Matthew is traveling, so he

cannot join us for NASCAR

today. And we're gonna, so

I will be your solo host.

It'll be a little bit

shorter segment than normal

just because of that. But we'll

roll through it pretty quickly

and then just kind of talk

about Talladega last week

and preview Martinsville, which

is the, I believe, penultimate

as the word we're looking for

here, penultimate race of

the season and the

the last, excuse me, last

race before the championship

race. So we already have two

of the playoff final four

sets. So that'll be

interesting as well as we go

through Martinsville. So let's

kind of go ahead and kind

of look back at Talladega first

and then we'll move into

Martinsville preview. So

Martins, or excuse me, I almost

said Martinsville, but Talladega

was very interesting this past

weekend. So a last lap

pass for Chase Brisco

gives him the gives him the

win and gives him the chance

to compete for the title next

week or two weeks from now,

excuse me, in Phoenix

in the championship race. So

he, you know, he's an

up and comer only 30 years

old out of Indiana. And he

has a chance to tangle with

his teammate, Denny Hamlin, as

well as any one of a few other

drivers who have a shot.

So let's go through the playoff

list real quick here.

It's it's pretty much over

for Chase Elliott at minus

62 below the clinch

below the cut line, excuse

me. So this is just as a

reminder, our top eight going

into the final round of the

playoffs with Chase Brisco,

Denny Hamlin, Christopher Bell,

Kyle Larson, William Byron,

Joey Logano, Ryan Blaney and

Chase Elliott. Right now,

Brisco and Hamlin are in the

final four because they both

have won a race in this round.

So now that leaves Christopher

Bell and Kyle Larson above the

cut line at plus 37 for Bell

and plus 36 for Larson.

Byron is William Byron is minus

36, Joey Logano is minus 38

and Blaney is minus 47.

Elliott is minus 62, as I

said. So Elliott is most

likely, unless he wins,

most likely not moving into

the final four.

So, you know, points are

probably not going to be enough

for him.

Denny, looking at Bell Larson

and Byron,

I think Bell Larson are in

pretty good shape points wise.

Byron and Logano and Blaney.

Byron and Logano, if I

understand the point system

correctly, which I sometimes

don't know if I do, if they

understand it, if I understand

correctly, they've got a shot

on points.

Blaney is probably on the

on the wild edge of, yeah,

it's like a long shot on

points. But of course, anyone

of those guys can win

Martinsville and be in.

So that's what's really, that's

what's really going to be

interesting about Martinsville.

We'll get to that in just a

few minutes. But those

final two spots being open

and then the four drivers

who are below the cut line

being fairly well below

that cut. So let's go back

to Teledega though. So,

you know, there was a lot

of, a lot, a lot of stuff

going on. And for those who

watched the race, it was the

last lap passed by Briscoe

was also assisted by

Ty Gibbs as his other

teammate. Because Gibbs gave

him a push. So those fans

who listen to this podcast to

follow Mascar closely to

understand super speedway

racing, everyone knows about

the draft, I think. And if you

don't know about it, you've

probably learned about it from

like days of thunder or

something like that. But you

also get the push as well.

Lennacar can sort of push

the guy in front of him

using aerodynamic advantages.

So, so that was, that was

how Briscoe won basically

got a push from his teammate

Gibbs. So, you know,

a non playoff driver helps

the helps his teammate who is

the playoff driver. So that

that that's a team effort.

I don't know if it was team

orders or a spur of the

moment decision by Gibbs, but

but, you know, big, big for

Briscoe who would never

actually won a super speedway.

So, you know, he's he's not

a superstar driver in the

way that like Kyle Larson or

Joey Logano is, but he's

definitely an up and comer.

And so he'll have a shot

at the championship in two

weeks, even though he only

led at 16 laps on Sunday.

So, but all that matters in

racing is leading that last lap,

right? So that's big for Briscoe.

There were a couple other

things in my mind and I'm

going over the recap just to

kind of refresh my memory

because it has been a few days

since the race between the

race and recording time here

for this this yellow wood

500 and Talladega.

So one thing I'm looking

at as well was that there

was not really the big one

wreck that was kind of one

close to that early in the

race, but later in the race.

By the way, let's go back to

the early race crash.

Chase Elliott, we were talking

about him below the cut line.

He was he was also involved

in but the nine car wreck.

So not quite the big one,

but semi big one, I guess.

Yeah, something like that.

So he he had that finishing

last, which is one reason

why he's so far below the

cut line.

He only got 51 laps in.

So he was started six

in the playoffs and he was

only 23 below the cut off line.

So now he's eighth of the eight

as we as we covered.

So basically I'm going back

over the the recap here.

I had it a little bit wrong.

I thought that he didn't.

I thought he had a long shot

chance.

He has to win Martinsville.

I had the math wrong.

So he 62 points down is not

him.

He can't win on points.

He can't get on points.

He is too far down.

So he has to to win,

although he did do that

last in 2020.

So he won Martinsville in 2025

years ago to get into the

championship.

So he saw the shot and it's

not out.

But you know, he needs to win.

So the the other big story

from Talladega to me were

two big rocks near the end.

Chris Butcher being in

position to be a non-playoff

driver to win the race

and near the very end being

hit and spun out.

So that changed the dynamics

and gave Brisco the chance

to win.

It was only two laps to go

when Byron gave him a

butcher, a bad bump.

Spun him to the inside.

William Byron, by the way.

Spun him to the inside

and put Butcher into the inside

wall.

That was because Carson Hosevach

had pushed Byron.

And then Byron ran into

Butcher.

But Butcher was it was not

a square hit.

It was kind of offline, almost

like what they call a pit

maneuver in the police world

and sent Butcher into the

inside wall and really

changed the race.

I don't know if I mentioned

to the outset, but it

actually ended up being an

overtime race.

So that was that was

big for the race and

obviously gave Brisco the

chance to win.

And Bubba Wallace was kind of

in the mix too, just didn't

quite get it.

And then Byron himself

spun across the finish line

as Brisco took the checkered.

But because it was a green

white checkered overtime

situation, there was no need

to run another overtime.

As we all know, as regular

listeners and regular NASCAR

fans know, under the green

white checkered system,

once you hit the white flag,

the next flag ends the race.

And also Byron was only a few

cars back of Brisco when he

spun.

So it wouldn't have mattered.

There was no reason to throw a

caution there.

Byron did finish 25th.

So that's important for the

playoffs.

He did lose a good amount of

potential points because he

finished 25th.

And then one thing I also

almost forgot to mention

because it was it was such a

footnote on a crazy busy

race is that Kyle Larson

ran out of gas and he was

in the mix to the finish in

the top five.

He ran out of gas with a

lap or two to go and you could

see his car go back.

It looked like he was going in

reverse.

He dropped spots so fast.

So he finished 26th behind

Byron.

So for the Hendrick Motorsports

team, that's pretty rough for

a team that's the play of

contention.

And so at the outside, we

set it up that, you know,

Brisco won and put our,

excuse me, yeah, Brisco won

and Brisco put himself in

in a spot to be one of the

final four drivers.

Well, it was really, really,

really important for Larson

and Byron to do better than

they did.

And those two last lap

calamities, Byron spinning

out and spinning out and

losing all that track position

right as he crosses the

start finish line and then

right before he crosses

the finish line and then

Kyle Larson ran out of gas

and I can't recall if it was

one or two laps to go,

but it was very, very late

in the race.

So that will set us up

for Martinsville and again,

this will be a shorter

NASCAR segment than usual.

So if you're hoping for

a half hour deep dive,

you'll get that next week

and Matthew is back from

travel and we can bounce

ideas back and forth off

of each other as we usually do

and oftentimes we kind of

just have a natural flow

and sometimes things pop

into our heads as we talk

no matter how much we prep

for the show.

So if you want a longer

NASCAR chat, please tune in

next week as we look back

at Martinsville and preview

Phoenix, but back to

Martinsville, which we're

going to preview right now.

So Talladega kind of flows

into Martinsville in a way,

right?

So you have, when I say

flows and I don't mean

the two races are, I don't

mean one race follows the other.

What I mean is the way

Talladega ended really sets

up drama in Martinsville.

So you have a must win

situation for Chase Elliott,

which like I said, he's done

before in 2025.

And then, you know, Byron

and Larson both had shots

at a lot more points.

And now Byron's pulled

the cut line after his spin.

So you've got Larson still

in that still in the top four

on points.

So he's sitting fairly pretty,

but you know, it's not going

to be a guarantee, of course.

So Martinsville is going to be

really, really important for

any of the four drivers

who are in the top eight,

but not of that cut line,

obviously, it's going to be

the case every year.

But I think, you know, for

for Blaney and Elliott,

they're basically, you know,

Elliott needs the win.

And I think Blaney, I don't

think he can make it on points either.

So it'll be really big

for those two guys.

And to me, the outlier

here, maybe that's the wrong phrase,

the wild card, I think is what I'm looking for.

The wild card here is what happens

if Martinsville is won

by a non playoff driver.

So these final three races

that determine the championship four,

so far, the first two have been won

by a playoff driver.

Denny Hamlin the week before,

and then that was in Vegas.

And then of course,

Chase Briscoe are at Talladega.

So now we have a situation

where there's one race left.

And if one of these

non playoff drivers wins,

what does that mean for,

especially for Joey Logano,

William Byron, Ryan Blaney, right?

Obviously, Chase Elliott needs to win.

Even Blaney probably needs to win.

Larson and Bell are ahead

of the cut line, but,

so points wise,

those two guys are,

you know, they have the best chance of getting in,

but again, who knows what's gonna happen.

And we have a short track race.

Short track racing is known for attrition,

because you have a lot of bumping and banging,

and it's really easy to have a mechanical issue

or get wrecked out in a race like that.

It's also easy to go down

by a lot of laps really quickly

if you're in the pits at the wrong time.

But it's also easy on a short track to regain

that if you have a problem early

and get back on the track.

So very, very curious to see what's gonna happen

on Sunday at two o'clock Eastern and Martinsville.

You know, right now,

I think Bell and Larson are sitting pretty,

but Logano and Byron still have a shot

and can't count Blaney and Elliott out,

unless again,

Elliott needs to win the whole thing,

or needs to win Martinsville to get into Phoenix,

I should say.

I am really curious what's gonna happen

if a non-playout driver wins.

You still have to fill four slots.

So it's gonna,

if a non-playout driver wins Martinsville,

it's gonna be the top two and points

that fill that third and fourth spot.

So will it be Bell and Larson as it looks right now,

or will Byron and Logano make a comeback?

So again, very curious for our listeners,

if you wanna watch Martinsville,

it is, as NASCAR always is this time of year,

it's the way the world works.

It's right up against the NFL,

but 2 p.m. Eastern Martinsville on NBC.

If you're a football fan and a NASCAR fan,

have your clicker ready to hit the last button on your remote.

And if you're just a NASCAR fan,

well, then just go ahead and tune in to NBC two o'clock

Eastern time for Martinsville.

And that's all we'll have for NASCAR today.

Again, we are a little bit short on time

just because we are missing our other half

of NASCAR chat.

So he's traveling for business

and he'll be back with us next week.

I believe to discuss Martinsville

and preview Phoenix as well.

And then a week after that,

we will be finishing up our on-track talks

because we will have a champion.

But don't worry, there will still be NASCAR talk

going forward throughout the silly season.

We'll start talking about which drivers

who need new rides and who might switch teams.

We'll talk about paint schemes,

any things with the new cars.

We have a few other things I'm working on

behind the scenes that might pop.

And we can talk about NASCAR stuff

all through the off-season.

So go ahead and tune in next week

to recap Martinsville and preview Phoenix.

But for now, we will go ahead

and wrap our NASCAR chat here on this week's

Truth About Cars podcast.

That's all for this week's Truth About Cars podcast.

You can find us wherever you hear podcasts

or online at ttac.com, that's t-tech.com

or the Truth About Cars all spelled out dot com.

We thank Tom Appell and Matthew Guy for their time

and Matt Poskey for editing.

Most of all, we thank you for listening.

We'll see you next time.

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