Leading with Accountability & Influence

What we've got to understand with accountability is what you tolerate will continue, so don't

look surprised.

If some people are coming in late every day and you tolerate it, they're going to keep

coming in late.

I mean, if you want to change a behavior, you've got to change the consequence for

that behavior.

You at least need to learn how to have a good skillful conversation with that person.

Beyond the Wrench with J. Gannon from Wrenchway.

On today's episode, I welcome somebody that probably had one of the biggest and best first

impressions on me of anybody I've ever met.

He is a very accomplished person, an author, a speaker.

You name it, he does it.

Mr. Accountability.

Dave Anderson, how are you doing today?

Oh, Jay, I'm doing great.

Thank you for the time today.

I am absolutely thrilled to get you on.

One, it was when we reached out to ask for you to come on the podcast, wasn't

sure if you would do it or not in being that we're kind of a niche podcast.

It's not reaching the probably gigantic audiences you're used to reaching.

But I really had dove into your work.

It started with reading the book Unstoppable that you had written one of my favorite books.

I think I've ever read in my life and one that I reference as much as I possibly

can because there are little tidbits in it that are just things that help in daily life.

To get you on this podcast is just very humbling and pretty cool that you'd take the time

to do.

Oh, I'm just, listen, I'm happy to talk to anybody that wants to listen to what

I have to say, so I appreciate the invite.

I'd love to share, regardless of the numbers, I've spoken to full rooms with

four people in it before and I was just happy to have the four, so I'm good with anything.

I mentioned at the top about the first impression piece and as we met and started

talking, you had asked if I was a Wisconsin Badger fan and I said, yeah, huge Badger

fan, my eight-year-old son, Beau, is a big Badger fan and you had said, well, I happened

to work with the Badgers quite a bit and so what came after that was just incredible.

You started sending us videos of former players, current players, of just messages

to my son and all of them were very well spoken.

It didn't seem like it was an inconvenience to them.

They were just really, really good people, but the fact that you went out of your way

to do that for somebody you had just met just absolutely blew me away.

Well, you know, well, it was fun to do and the guys were thrilled to do it.

The Badgers don't just recruit good ballplayers.

They recruit good guys, just really good young men.

I worked with some NBA players as a mental skills trainer and a lot of them, they didn't

have a dad that was involved in their life.

They didn't even know to this day who that person is and so when you find somebody that

is involved in their son's life, like I could tell that you were, you want to rally

around that.

It was fun to do and I'm glad Bo got some good times out of it and some good stories,

didn't he?

He really, really did something that I mentioned before we hit record that he's

going around and bragging to his buddies about these really, really good basketball

players sending him messages.

So very much appreciated.

But I do want to ask, where did you get that, the ability to just

deliver over the top and, you know, I sense it in every book that I've read of

yours, every piece of content that I've consumed, that you just have this

ability to kind of take it to the next level, kind of in all areas of your

life. But what drives that?

I think it's a mindset and I talk about it a little bit, Jay, in the

latest book is to give all you have to what you've got to always do your

best. And I know that sounds cliche, but with whatever you do, look for a

way to maximize it.

I don't care if it's making your bed, first of all, make it and then do it

really well, because then you set a standard for yourself to where no

matter what you're doing, you give your all, you give your best.

If you do less than your best sometimes, it's like, if I had in the

back of my mind, I could do this, but I'm busy and they're busy, so I

don't do it, then you develop two standards for yourself.

Your best and less than your best, and you don't know which one's going to

wiggle its way out. When you most need your best to show up and always

doing your best doesn't mean you're great at everything, it means you give

all you have to what you've got.

So I think when you do that over a period of time, it becomes natural.

It just becomes your standard. That's the standard that you have for

yourself. And I didn't think anything of it. To me, it was no big deal

because that's just, here's what I can do. So here's what I'm going to

do. And it's funny that you mentioned that because it's just kind of

become part of my thinking, part of my DNA, if you will. And I think

anybody can develop that. I think most people don't because they live

part of their lives sloppy and cutting corners. And then they justify it.

It didn't matter that much. I really didn't have that much time.

It's not that big of a deal. But they don't understand.

They're training their conscience that it's okay to give less than you

have. That it's okay to do less than your best. And you only have one

conscience. And you have to be careful how you're training it. So now

we're training it to have two different standards. And I'm telling

you that wrong standard wiggles out a lot when you don't want it to.

Like when the stakes are really high, that bad one's going to come

out. So I think that's why it was an easy thing to do. And I'm

glad it made such a such a great impression to me. It was no

big deal.

Well, was this something were you raised that way with kind of the

little detail stuff that was important?

Yeah, I did. But I didn't get it for a while. My dad was that way.

And I thought he was just neurotic. And he was anal. And he

was all these things. And these things we call people that

actually have standards in their lives. That all you're

just picking you're making much to do about nothing. But it

started to kick in. Long after I got into management, and I ran a

group of dealerships and started as a salesperson and ended up

running six stores in Palo Alto. And it really started to kick

in. When I had five general managers that were reporting

to me, plus I was general manager of a store of the

sixth store. And it's like, there's no margin for error

here. You know, you have to all these little loose ends

all this little sloppiness, this untightiness, this less than

your best here. Now the stakes are higher. And so we've got to

get this standard. So I finally caught on little by little. And

that's what that was about 30, 30 years ago, it really, it

really took I'm 64 now. So I was a slow learner, but better

late than ever. Some guys are on their death bed at 85. They

still haven't figured this out. Then it's a little late,

isn't it? It is. And I think we all see that from the best

performers, right? We see the ones that are attention to

detail, folks. And you see that in the best businesses, you see

that you mentioned working with athletes, the little things

add up to a lot. And granted, there is, I think natural

ability in whatever profession you're in that will put you in

in a better position. But I think so much of it does come down

to the fine detail. This is something I've had to work on in

myself over the years. I am not. I say I'm not overly attention

to detail. I think it depends on the thing, right? And we're in

reading what you write and what you talk about. It's about

everything. And you have the saying at bed every day means

every day. And it is one of those things that I'm constantly

trying to remind myself of and trying to get better with because

it is one of those pieces where that consistency drives

gigantic results. But it is easy to get lazy in your mind and

kind of set the standard lower. And it hurts people when they

do that.

It does. I'll tell you what really kicked it into gear for

me. I think everybody ought to take some kind of martial arts

and it doesn't matter what your age is. And it's not just so you

can beat people up. The whole idea is that you shouldn't you

shouldn't have to. But you should be able to defend

yourself. But I had a sense a that I started working with

and still to this day I do in my 40s I got started late. And

he was really strict. This guy is in three karate halls of

fame. He is a seven time champion. And he's a ninth degree

black belt. And he lived two doors down for me. It was

crazy. And I knew who he was for years before I ever opened

the door. And the higher you went, the less margin there

was for air. So he started you very early. Get it all

right. Don't don't round off any corners right because by

the time you take your black belt test, you can't make a

single mistake. And it goes on for hours. And it's a Korean

form of martial arts. And you have to learn how to do these

katas, you know, where you do these 40 movement things. And

you have to do 12 of them. But you have to start by naming the

form in Korean. And you can't even mispronounce it or you

flunk the test, only he makes you take the whole test. And

then he tells you after by the way about two and a half

hours ago, you made this mistake. And so you know, we

can schedule another time in six months to try it again. So he

really, and he turns the air conditioning off and you've got

your gear down. I mean, you're just sweating. And then the

last thing you do to pass the test is you have to fight him

after he's been just, you know, rested for hours. But it

conditioned me to where it all matters. Everything matters.

This move matters that angle matters. And the whole idea

of pronouncing the form correctly, as you should

learn how to think before you speak, which a lot of

managers, that principle would help them get a lot, you know,

further down the road than they are. And so he was a huge

influence that came along later in my life. You never know

when your mentors are going to show up. And I've been

blessed to have three really impactful mentors in my life.

And he was one of them. And he's the one J that really

started to teach me about mindset. And I've written

16 books. But the last three have been all on mindset

unstoppable intentional mindset and elevate your

excellence because I finally figured out you can have all

the skills how to recruit and interview and train and hold

people accountable. But if you're thinking isn't right,

you're not going to do that stuff anyway. I mean, we all

know experienced people who don't do much with it. We

know talented people who are lazy. You know, you know,

people that have all this knowledge that are very

negative and always looking for the downside of thinking

that all goes back to how you think. And but the

problem is most people don't work on their thinking. They

work on their job. They'll even work on their skills. But

they're not working to improve how they think and how you

think determines what you do. And how well you do it and

who you become in the process. And so I wish I had to

learn that later. I wish, you know, when I was a

teenager, I'd have gotten into it, but I started taking

martial arts. However, I might not have been ready

for it. I might not have had the right mindset at that

time, to be humble enough, and hungry enough to

really embrace what he was saying. And I'm grateful

that he was hard on me. And I think sometimes we get

upset because our, our boss expects a lot. But listen,

if that boss under, if that boss under challenges,

you he cheats you. And if you under challenge your

people, you cheat your people. I mean, some people

don't see the greatness within them because

they're too close to it, and they need somebody to

call that out. And so we shouldn't buckle or

resist or get resentful. When somebody makes us

uncomfortable with a high set of expectations,

because what we're going to have to struggle to do

to get there is going to help us grow.

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I want to talk about the accountability side. And I

think this is something that in our industry, a lot of

folks struggle with, myself included, in trying to

have those difficult conversations that trying

is, you know, even setting the bar, having that

conversation up front with folks and in laying

out kind of that groundwork for setting that

expectation, you work with some pretty high profile

folks and in your book Unstoppable, you talk

about your work with Damian Lillard. And I'm just

curious as to, you know, you worked with a lot of

high performers in your life. Is it easier or

harder to hold that high performer accountable? And

you know, let's start there. Is it easier

harder to hold that high performer accountable?

It's easier if you get them earlier. And you can

condition them for what to expect from you. If you've

got a guy that hasn't been held accountable, and a

lot of these athletes, they've been spoiled, pampered

and have everything handed to them. They've been

given every accommodation for so long that all of a

sudden, if I catch them too late, I try to get

them right out of college. And sometimes even

then, now that they're paying them a lot in

college, it can be too late. Okay, but if you

can condition them, if I catch them too late, and

now it's like, wait a minute, look how well I've

done without you. Look how well I've done up to

this point without this type of scrutiny and this

type of accountability. They're less open to

it, most of them, unless they're stuck. If people

are stuck and they're struggling, they're a

lot more open. The drowning man is open to

suggestions how not to die. Okay. The guy at

the top of the mountain enjoying the view,

drinking beer, talking about how great he's

done. He's a little less coachable at that

point. Right. So yeah, I've worked, but I met

Damien eight years ago, and he was already

successful. He was doing really well, but he

had the mindset that most people don't have. I

want to stay hungry. I want to stay humble. How

do I keep that going? Not okay. Look, well, how

well I've done, how well I figured it out. And

so regardless, let's say you inherit, okay, you

take over a new department and you have a

top performer there that's never been held

accountable. Well, I will just tell you, it's

never too late to do the right thing. But

you got to get really clear first about

what you expect. I mean, you got to set out

ground rules, Jay, because accountability is

impossible without clarity. Because the

question is accountable for what? How the

heck can I sit down and say, Jay, you're not

living our values. You're getting great

numbers, man. But you're not doing it

the right way. You're not living the

values. If I never talk about the values,

or I see a lot of managers, they don't

know what they are. They're hanging on a

wall. Core values. All they are is decor. In

some nice fancy frame, the deeter put up

there and they walk past and nobody knows

what the heck they are. And so without

that type of clarity and clarity has two

aspects, Jay, really, you got to make it

clear and then keep it clear. And keeping

it clear is a lot of work because it

fades. Clarity. We say, well, I've

told them once, well, you better tell

them 128 more times. And about the time

you're so sick of saying that you could

puke, they're starting to get it quite

frankly, okay? It's like, yeah, you

can't possibly over communicate

clarity. You're a lot more likely to

under communicate it. So yeah, you can

get that top performer and it's maybe

going to be a little bit more

challenging and say, look, you know,

I'm going to hold you accountable for

two different metrics, the numbers

which you're doing really well with.

And then the values which are getting

the numbers the right way. And by

the way, part of the values is

following our processes as being here

on time. It's doing, you know,

processes, people don't like to follow

processes. As long as I get the numbers,

why should it matter? Well, a process

isn't punishment, it's protection.

It protects you from bad habits. It

protects you from short cuts and

training your brain the wrong way.

It protects you from self destruction

and having that conversation with

them. And you know, you may have

some top performers don't like that

conversation. And I know managers

they're afraid to have this

conversation with them because,

well, what if he what if he leaves?

Well, okay, it's like the trash

taken itself out quite frankly, if

you have somebody that doesn't want

to live your values, you have no

idea how many good people that

that person's holding down. You're

worried about what it's going to

cost if he leaves, you should be

awake at night thinking about what

it's costing you for that person to

stay and continue to create

cultural misery on the installment

plan for everyone that has to be

around them. So accountability

isn't always easy. It's always

worth it. You got to do it the right

way though. You can't be a jerk. We

got to learn how to talk to people.

And in this business, that's not

always the way it's done.

Because the words won't land if you

don't say it the right way.

Oh, it is such good advice there.

And I know there are a number of

shop leaders listening to this

right now. And we talk a lot about

this in our world with

relation to technicians. And

because there's such a shortage of

skilled labor to actually work on

the car or piece of equipment or

truck, whatever it might be. A lot

of these shops find themselves

handcuffed because they feel like

they can't say anything to the

individual. They can't they can't

enforce those cultural things that

they're trying to enforce because

they are terrified of this person

leaving. And it

it results in bad cultures, it

results in bad work environments

and other people being miserable

coming to work. And, you know, I

I think this is just such a

timely piece of advice for our

industry as a whole is that

if you continue to allow

that behavior in your shop,

you're going to continue to get

the same results and continue to

have that frustration that you

can't steer the ship in the right

direction. And I love your

approach and insight there.

Well, it's I appreciate

that it's common sense, which is

why most people don't want to do

it. They over they overthink

it. But what this person has to

understand is I'm not singling

you out. These are values

for all of us. These are things

we all do. You are part of a

team. And when you're part of a

team, here's what you got to

know. It's not about you. It was

never about you. It'll never be

about you. You got to be okay

with that. It's about what's best

for the team. I'm held

accountable to these things. I

tell them I'm held accountable to

the same thing. So you're not

being singled out. You're just

being asked to do to live the

values to follow the process

is everyone else is being

asked to do. And what really

hurts Jay is when a loser

leaves loses his or her

credibility. When we say,

yep, these are non-negotiables.

These are the processes. These

are the values. And then people

don't do them. And nothing

happens. Now the leader is not a

leader. Now the leader is a

pretender with a title. He's an

empty suit. He's a clown. And I

think a lot of leaders today

are so hungry to be liked

that they make a lot of

compromises and they're no

longer respected. Nothing wrong

with being liked. I mean, you

know, but like should follow

respect. People tend to like

people that they respect. I may

not always agree with you, but

I respect the fact that I know

where you stand. And I know

where I stand. And that's

something to respect. I mean,

we got these leaders that

they're trying to make

everybody happy. It's like

brother, if you want to make

everybody happy in your next

life, maybe you could come

back as tequila or ice cream

or a clown. I don't know

clowns have gotten kind of

creepy in some of these

movies now, but maybe a

clown's not a good example.

But it's like, no, you got

to you got to do what's

right. And when you do what's

right, it's going to make

some people unhappy. It's

going to make them

uncomfortable. But that's

how people grow. My job,

listen, my job is not to

make you comfortable. My job

is to help you grow and to

help you grow. You're

going to have to be

uncomfortable. And there's

going to be expectations

that challenge you some

feedback that maybe you

don't want to hear, but

that you need to hear. I'll

always be respectful. I

can say a really tough

message in the right way.

I've learned how to do that.

I used to not do it that

way. It used to be horrible

at it. I thought I just

had to get loud to get my

point across. No, I needed

to get skilled. You don't

need to get loud. You

don't need to get

emotional. All that does

is distract from the words

you're trying to get to

land. And so, but, you

know, what we got

to understand with

accountability is what

you tolerate will

continue. So don't look

surprised if some people

are coming in late every

day and you tolerate it,

they're going to keep

coming in late. I mean, if

you want to change a

behavior, you've got to

change the consequence

for that behavior. You at

least need to learn how to

have a good skillful

conversation with that

person. We don't even

want to talk to people

today. You know, and I

think we've lost some of

our ability to communicate

and to give feedback

because of all the emails

and all the texts. And we

just don't have the

people skills in some

regard to relate to

people. And so, but

you don't get better at

relating to people by

not relating to people. You

don't get better at

holding people accountable

by avoiding holding

people accountable like

anything else you got to

put in the reps. But this

protects your culture.

This protects your brand.

It protects your

credibility. It protects

your production. It

protects morale. It

protects momentum. It

protects the customer

experience. The stakes

are too high. And if a

leader isn't going to

develop the skill set

and the mindset to get

really great at holding

people accountable, they

should go, they should

get out of leadership and

go find something easier

for them to do because

it's in leadership. It's

not an option. It's a duty.

The need to be liked

as you're talking through

this, I think can be a

huge detriment, right?

Because I do think

in a lot of cases that

could lead to that

that lack of clarity, right?

Because maybe that person

doesn't want to clearly

state the expectations

in in doing so

really causes this confusion

amongst their teams.

And it really

I see it all the time, right?

That lack of communication

and we'd say communication,

but really the clarity

of the message coming across.

It confuses people

and they don't know

what they're what they're

aiming for, right?

Because they they're not

sure where they're

supposed to be going.

You're exactly right.

And I think you hit

on an important point, Jay.

I think a lot of leaders

don't even realize

they're doing this.

It's subconscious.

They prefer things

be a little vague.

They don't want to draw

the line too deeply in the sand

because they know if they do

and that line gets crossed,

they're actually going to

have to do something about it.

So if I leave it a little gray,

if I act like I assume

they know what they're

supposed to do

and then it doesn't get done,

I can pretend that it's not

happening. I don't have

to make myself or them

uncomfortable by addressing it.

And I don't even think

people recognize

what they're doing.

But we got to understand

how the brain is wired.

Your brain will always try

to protect you

from uncomfortable situations.

You see, the brain does not

care about keeping us happy.

The brain cares about

keeping us alive.

That's what the brain's job

is for. Could not care less

if we're happy.

It cares a lot if you survive.

So it's always causing us

to avoid change,

to avoid discomfort,

to avoid confrontation.

It's natural.

So to lead well,

you got to think unnaturally.

You have to rewire the brain

not to do what's easy

and comfortable instead

to do what's right.

And that takes intention.

Intention means on purpose.

You have to really work at it.

You have to be purposeful

to do it that way.

The confrontation part

is one that I struggle

with again, myself, where

I don't necessarily love

being confrontational, right?

And I think

there are times where

that has held me back

from having a true honest

conversation.

For those folks like me out there

that are listening,

what is a good exercise

to get comfortable in that

conflict and really

kind of not not look for it,

but not be afraid of it?

I think we need to do a better

job as

as leaders of leading with

questions.

I think we try to command

commitment instead of getting

people to commit.

And it's just it's a

subtle change.

So let's just say

you were supposed to have

X number of shown appointments

yesterday.

OK, maybe that's one of your

minimum requirements

and you missed.

And we're having our little

morning meeting.

I'm a big believer in having a

little huddle in the morning

to hold people accountable

for the essential actions

the day before.

So we're managing activities,

not just being.

Gazing at the scoreboard,

you got to stay in the game.

Don't confuse the scoreboard

because I got to manage the game.

And Jay, let's say you fell short.

I might say, well, you know, Jay,

you missed by this.

I need this from you today, man.

I need this from you today.

Well, obvious you have no

obligation to keep my word.

On the other hand, if I say, Jay,

you fell a little short

of what you were supposed

to have yesterday, what can I

expect you to have by tomorrow

this time?

Well, Dave, I'm going to have

this.

All right, man.

I appreciate your commitment to

improve.

I'm going to hold you to that.

By getting you to say it,

number one, I just reminded you

that you made a commitment.

Now, you have a lot bigger

obligation to keep your word

than to keep mine.

And I'm also going to remind

you, I'm going to hold you to

it. So it's leading with

questions.

I don't I don't think question

don't ask a question like

you're a prosecuting attorney

reading off an indictment to

somebody. I mean, a lot of it

has to do with tone and

inflection.

But let's say you have a

technician, you have an

advisor, you know they just

did less than their best with

that customer. You know it.

They mailed it in.

Maybe they did less than their

best that month.

How you approach it is

important.

Can I share an example?

I don't think Tyler Wall would

mind me sharing this example.

So a couple of years ago

when I was working with the

Badgers, Tyler Wall was the

leader of the team.

He's the tough guy.

He's the leader. He was our

he was our our inspiration.

And I've known Tyler since

he was a freshman.

And so I'd worked with them

for several years.

Now, there's a lesson there.

The depth of your relationship

determines the depth of your

coaching. If you have a

stronger relationship with

somebody, you can push them

more.

You can say tougher stuff

because they know it's coming

from the right place.

They know your motives are

good.

So you've got to build a

trusting relationship with

your people or they'll always

feel attacked

when you're trying to tell

them something that'll help

them because they don't know

that it's coming from the

right place. They feel

picked on, especially young

people today. They feel

they feel attacked when you

can give them a tough message.

So I could say things to Tyler.

I couldn't say with a

freshman because I wasn't with

the Badgers every day.

I did text and I did videos

and I might have been with

them four or five times a

year. So you had to maximize

that time.

Well, we had just been ranked

number six in the country,

which I knew it horrified

me because we were not that

good. I knew we were not

that good.

The problem is the team

thought they were that good

and I tried to tell them

they weren't that good and

they didn't want to believe

me.

And we were walking into

Nebraska.

We were going to play

Nebraska, who was unranked.

So this is what we call a trap

game, Jay. You've got to

you've got a great ranking.

They're a quote, nobody.

There's a bullseye on your

back. You're walking into a

trap. They got everything

to gain, nothing to lose.

They're going to play loose.

They're going to bring it

all at you. And our guys

probably weren't going to

take the game very seriously,

which they didn't. And I

could tell I could tell

with the communications we

had that week, they were

not locked in. They were

looking past them to Purdue,

which was the next game,

which is always a biggie.

And I was not at that game,

but I watched that game and I

was so disgusted with Tyler's

play, someone that I had

higher expectations for,

somebody that I expected to

lead the team well, bad

body language, way too tense.

I could tell he wasn't

mentally prepared. Anyhow,

they take us into overtime,

which is not good when

you're on their court and

they beat us. So I'm in

the Madison. I'm in the

film room three days later,

right before we get ready

to play Purdue. And I know

Tyler did less than his

best, but I didn't want to

attack them in front of the

whole group and say, Tyler,

you did less than your best.

And here's what you need to

do against Purdue tomorrow.

Bam, bam, bam, bam.

This was what most managers

would do. They call people

out. They don't call them

up. So we got to learn how

to call people out and

then to call them up. If

we just call them out,

we leave them in failure.

So I have a series of

questions, the four key

questions that I ask

somebody again, lead with

questions, ask more questions

that get them involved.

My first question is this.

Tyler, and I did, I said

this in front of the whole

group. Now it takes a high

degree of skill. You really

got to do it the right way

to call somebody out in

front of everybody else. I

don't recommend it. You

got to be really good at

this and you have to have

a good relationship with

that person. But I knew

Tyler would take it well.

I said, Tyler, was the

effort you brought against

Nebraska? Was that the

best you're capable of

doing? That was a

question. Was the month

you had last month, was

that the best you're

capable of doing? Was the

job you just did with that

customer, that angry

customer? I'm just asking

you, was that the best

you're capable of doing? Now

nobody wants to admit that

when they sucked, that was

their best. Okay, so

you're probably going to

get the right answer to

that question. He said, no,

David wasn't even close.

What would your best have

looked like? What would

you have done differently

that didn't show up against

Nebraska? Oh, well, I

would have done this, this,

this and this. Why do you

think that didn't happen?

That was my third

question, because I got to

see if they're going to

take responsibility. I

didn't take it seriously. I

didn't do my normal mental

prep. I went in thinking it

was going to be easy. And

when things got tough, I

got to tense. So what can

I expect to see you do

differently against Purdue

tomorrow? In other words,

let's call it, let's

move forward. Dave, I'm

going to do this, this,

this and this. All right,

my friend, I'm going to

be sitting right behind a

bench. I'm going to be

watching you. I appreciate

your commitment to do that.

And I'm going to hold you

to it. Now you can take

this series of questions.

Was that your best? What

would your best have looked

like? Why do you think

that didn't happen? What

can I expect to see moving

forward with someone who

just does a lousy job of

the customer or a lousy

job for the month? And

what we're doing is we're

confronting, but it's very

engaging. We're getting

them involved. Leadership

is a dialogue, not a

monologue. And we're

getting them to commit.

We're not making them

commit because I could have

told them, Tyler, here's

what you did wrong. This,

this, this and this. But

it was better if he said

it. Because now he has an

obligation to fix it. If I

had just said it, he could

have got defensive. Well, I

will tell you, if we get

more skilled at leading

with these types of

questions, we can confront

people by having

conversations. You know,

confronting doesn't mean

we're wagging the finger

and accusing. We need to

get better at asking

questions and making it

conversational. You can

say, I believe in

tough love. I believe in

giving brutally honest

feedback, but not giving

it brutally. Making it

conversational. It takes

practice. And it takes

some of the fear out. You're

not as tense. They're not

as defensive. I will tell

you this, we did lose

Purdue as the number two

team in the country at the

time, and they did come

in and they beat us by

six points. And we had

them like up until the

last minute, and we just

gave the game away. Tyler

was the best player on

either team that day. And

he was guarding seven

foot for Zach Eady. But

he did everything. He

committed to doing. He was

a total beast. And that

was a shadow victory for

me. I hate to lose,

believe me. But I was

really proud of him. I

really knew he grew that

day. And so I guess

learning how to speak to

people, learning how to

ask them questions and

doing it tone and inflection

and body language are more

important than the words

you say. There's that

UCLA study, Jay, 55% of

communication is body

language. If you've got your

hands on your hips, if your

face is all wrinkled in in

red, and your wagon, your

finger, they don't need,

they can't even hear what

the heck you're telling

them. You're such a, you're

so distracting. 55% body

language, 38% tone and

inflection. That's 93%.

Before we open our mouth

and say a word, before

the actual word comes

out, you say, well, why

do words mean so little?

Well, because they're not

gonna hear the words. If

your tone is condescending,

sarcastic, disrespectful,

if you get personal, if you

get profane, if you get

emotional, if you get loud

and your body language

stinks, they're not gonna

hear anything you say. So

we got to get better at

learning how to relate and

accountability to me, Jay,

it's a conversation. It's

not write ups. It's not

loss of a privilege. It's

not probation yet. It may

come to that. I get it.

For most things, that's

not where you start. Having

a skillful conversation with

someone fixes a ton of stuff.

If you know what to say

and how to say it, I think

you get so much information

back out of that

conversation, too, right?

Because you're you're

actually caring about that

person. You're, you know, I

think a lot of people's

default is going to that

corrective action right

off the bat before

actually trying to dive

in and and learn a

little bit more in that

example with Tyler Wall.

It is, you know, one, having

the great relationship to

start with, but then, too,

you know, when when you

approach it that way, it was

such a light bulb moment

for me when you said that

because I do think some of

my most impactful

conversations that are

accountability based have

started like that, right?

Where it isn't like, hey,

I'm coming for your

throat right off the bat.

It is let's let's have a

talk like something's not

going right. Let's let's

try to figure out why

and then you have more of

that collaborative approach

to making sure that this

gets done, the desired

result gets done.

And it just as

you're talking through that,

I think is so effective

for so many people out

there that are struggling

with this very subject, right?

This very topic where

maybe they have good people

that aren't aren't putting

out their best and

being able to point that

out and have conversations

around that can be

an absolute game changer for folks.

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We need to be able to

influence the influencers.

OK, so a lot of times

we avoid the influencers

because they intimidate us.

They are in their own little

world. They do do their own

thing. We just leave him

alone, man. He's fine.

You know, as a sales

manager, I used to do this,

you know, I got to get

down here and fix oh five

car Fred, you know, because

if I really work hard with him,

I can get him up to six

and he can have a record month

and do his victory lap around

the store and ask to be

promoted. But the 25 car guy,

I don't want to mess with him.

But see, here's the problem

with that. I need to

influence the influencers.

It's one thing to have

influence with five car Fred,

but that's not going to

help my changes stick.

That's not going to help

get the respect I need.

I need to build a

relationship with the top

person, not to micromanage

them, but to support them.

What more do you need for me?

OK, to get to know them, to get

to know what makes them tick.

I Tyler was an influencer

on that team.

And for them to hear me talk

to him like that, everybody

raised their game.

Wasn't enough to beat Purdue,

but we didn't get killed

like we were supposed to,

either. And so we have

to be more confident

and competent in our ability

to relate to people.

We've got to work harder

at building relationships.

See, too many of us,

we spend too much time

with stuff, not enough time

with people.

We over manage, we under lead.

And and they never teach

leaders this, but management

and leadership are two

different skill sets.

They're not the same thing.

And you got to get good at both.

It comes with the territory,

but management is really

the paperwork part of the job.

Leadership is the people

work part of the job.

And we spend so much time

with stuff, we got no time

for people. And quite frankly,

the reason we spent a lot

of time with stuff, stuff's

easier. Stuff, stuff

doesn't talk back, doesn't

come in late, doesn't create

drama, doesn't have

personal problems, doesn't need

pep talks, right?

Doesn't ask for a raise.

I mean, we can feel like

we've mastered the stuff.

So to keep our egos intact,

we spend more time

with the safe stuff

where we can feel in control.

Because if I get out there

with those people, people are messy.

People got issues.

One day they're up,

one day they're down,

one day they like you.

Next day they're holding

a revolution against you.

And and and it's like,

but avoiding it

isn't going to help

you grow your team.

And eventually, Jay,

you know that if we don't hold

our people accountable,

we get held accountable.

So I tell the managers

that kind of my seminar is

you get good at this

or someone who's good at this

is going to do it to you.

OK, and it may not

end well for you.

So it's it's a skill

that can be developed.

But it also is a mindset.

Accountability requires a skill

set out of mindset.

See, I can know how to do

all this stuff that I'm

talking about and still not do it

because I'm afraid.

Still not do it because, Jay,

we're setting a record, man.

We're having a record month.

Why should I rock the boat

and go talk to him?

I got bigger fish to fry right now,

right? And so we have this mindset

that says, even though I got

the skill set, I find reasons

not to lose them, not to

not to use it.

It's like, yeah, I know I should do it,

but we're shorthanded.

And so if I have that

conversation with him,

he might leave.

That's the mindset part.

Let me tell you something

about being shorthanded.

You are better to be

strategically short staffed

than foolishly filled up.

You are better off to have fewer

people that are the right people

that will step up in reality

because you're a little shorthanded

than you are to have some toxic

achiever in your culture

holding all those other folks down.

So good news is when I say

a skill set and mindset,

you can develop both.

Both of those are within your

control to develop,

which means if you don't develop it,

it's your fault.

It's on you, you know.

And so there's no excuse

to remain ignorant.

You can get better.

You can get the training,

get the coaching.

You can get the books.

You can take the courses.

Ignorance is very, very expensive.

And but if you know how to do it,

you're not ignorant anymore

because ignorance is lack

of training or knowledge.

If you know how to do it

and you're not doing it,

you can't claim ignorance.

Now you're just going to have

to call that stupid

because if you know what to do

and you're not doing it,

you can't hide behind ignorance anymore.

The definition of stupidity

is lack in common sense or intelligence.

Well, if you know what to do

and you don't do it,

it's not very intelligent.

There's no common sense there.

So I mean, stupid.

We don't want that

as part of our personal brand, you know.

Oh, I so many good things right there

that we just talked through

that I just blown away by.

I think on that end

and when we talk through

the people side,

I know early on for me as a manager,

that was one thing.

It was almost like that imposter syndrome.

I had a pretty large team under me

when I was about 30 years old.

And there were people that had worked at this company

longer than I'd been alive.

And so I thought I knew what a manager looked like.

And it was a lot of the paperwork side

and trying to go through numbers

and really focusing on our KPIs and P&L.

But looking back to when I first stepped into that

that leadership type of role,

I wish I would have spent, you know,

the first few months just getting to know people

a little bit more.

And I remember going into that where

it was a large team

and I was having trouble

just remembering people's names, right?

That were on my team.

And had I just taken the extra step to just

because I love talking to people

and I love building those relationships.

But I almost didn't have the confidence

of I can go spend some time with these people

and get to know them.

I have to get my nose down

and start working right away.

And I've told other people this in the past,

but that is one major error that I made

when I stepped into leadership

was not taking that part a little bit more seriously.

And it was because I was trying to look good

to the people that owned the company, right?

I was trying to look good to them.

And it made me less effective as a result, right?

Had I gone in with a different mindset there,

I think I could have done a much better job.

You know, you got to go slow to go fast

and you got to build that foundation of relationships.

I did the same thing.

I think it's very common.

It's very common.

We're in such a hurry to get a result.

We come out with all these new processes

and all these new rules.

We haven't built the relationships.

Well, here's the problem.

Rules without relationships equals rebellion.

I don't care if you're raising kids.

I don't care if you're building a team.

If all you've got are rules and processes

and you haven't connected with those people,

they haven't bought into you.

And I don't care if you're the boss,

I don't care if you're the dealer.

They don't have to buy into you.

Buying is earned.

It's not commanded.

Okay, they don't have to buy into you.

They can hold their nose, take their paycheck

and just have a job,

but they don't have to buy into anything.

You have to earn that.

And they have to buy into your character,

your competence, your consistency.

There's five C's they got to buy into your compassion.

They got to know you care about them.

And they got to buy into your commitment.

They got to see that you're changing,

that you're putting in the work,

that you're just not trying to build a great team

by memo, you know?

And this is easy to skip over.

But boy, do we pay a price.

Do we pay a price for that?

And then I wasn't trained as a manager.

So many of us, we weren't trained.

We turned a lot of hours.

We wrote a lot of service.

I sold a ton of cars.

So they knighted me as a manager.

And like all these skills

are gonna come to me in a dream one night.

I didn't know how to do any of this.

Happens all day, every day.

Every day.

And it's like the best time to get ready

for the position is before you're in the position.

That's why the best dealerships,

I just held a seminar out in Chicago

for a couple of days

and they have what they call their rising stars.

So these were people who were not in leadership positions

yet that they have marked for leadership

that were in there with the leaders

hearing the same message, getting on the same page,

you know, and preparing them for when their time came.

That's very rare, but it's very powerful when that happens.

And I was kind of a hypocrite.

I mean, because I wasn't very good at what I did,

I had to spend more time doing it.

Never took a day off.

You ever noticed that?

I mean, if you're not very good at what you do,

you gotta spend more time trying to get it done.

I've worked in all these crazy hours,

never took a day off.

I had to make every decision, solve every problem,

have every idea.

I had ulcers.

I was 40 pounds overweight.

But then I'm trying to talk to my people

about standards of excellence, but they looked at me.

They didn't see excellence.

They saw a basket case.

They looked at, you know, they looked at my body.

They didn't see discipline.

I mean, I couldn't look,

I hadn't seen my shoes looking down in two years.

I had that belly in the way.

It's like, how do I talk to them about discipline

and standards when I don't even look

like I'm living those things?

It's like, I gotta be the message.

Man, they would rather see the message in me

than hear the message from me.

They would rather, you know, if I'm gonna talk to them

about having a plan when they walk in,

I need to walk in with my plan.

I see these managers, they walk in without a plan.

They're not gonna run the day.

The day is gonna run them.

They come in, they're not the boxer, they're the bag.

They pick up a cup of coffee and a bagel

and they're walking around like a talk show host

waiting for something to react to.

Instead of acting as a catalyst

that really gets that team moving in the right direction.

So these things can be learned.

And I've learned a lot through my mistakes

and I tell everybody, boy, if you could have seen me back then

I don't care how bad you might be at something.

You'd have hope.

Because it's like, oh man,

if he could figure some things out

there's gotta be hope for me too.

But you gotta work at it.

Like anything you wanna get better at

just showing up doesn't do it.

Showing up doesn't get you better.

Stepping up gets you better.

There are a lot of people who show up

don't step up and just really work on their craft.

And management, leadership,

these are big time skill sets, man.

Then you gotta work at it.

You gotta do, you gotta study.

You gotta put in the work.

You gotta get the education

and then turn it into application.

Experience is no substitute for growth

and they're certainly not synonymous with each other.

I get the sense that a lot of leaders struggle

with accountability for the exact reason

you just explained which is that

they struggle to hold themselves accountable.

And so to get themselves disciplined

to the point to where they have the confidence

in holding other people accountable is a big step.

Huge.

And how many times do you hear people say

I just gotta hold myself more accountable?

But they cannot tell you

what that would look like in their daily routine.

So I started to try to overcome that challenge in myself.

How can I hold myself more accountable?

It's like, well, how do you hold someone else accountable?

You gotta have clarity, what we said earlier.

There can't be any accountability without clarity.

So let me start by before I go home tonight,

let me schedule my four biggest priorities for tomorrow.

I'm a big believer in MaxAx, MAX, ACTS, maximum activities.

I know I'm gonna have 40 things to do tomorrow.

If I could only do four,

now that'll narrow your focus, that question.

If I could only do four that were most predictive

of getting the result I need to get, what would they be?

You better know what they are

and you better be good at those things

because the same four come up a lot.

And so I'm gonna schedule them on my calendar.

Now I have finished my day before I've started it.

I'm leaving the office with a win.

I'm gonna review it in the morning

before I get to work as part of my mindset routine

I got a routine to go through in the morning,

get my mindset tuned up.

Now I've seen it twice.

Now I've got clarity.

I've also got something to hold myself accountable for

at the end of the day.

So at the end of the day, I look at my planner,

it's very simple.

And I do this every single day.

Okay, I got these three and I missed this one.

I'm like that athlete now watching a game film.

If you ever watch film,

you know you're not just looking for what you did wrong.

It's like why did this work?

Because I want to duplicate it.

So I'm gonna study my wins Jay.

Most people don't study their wins.

Why was I able to get these three done today?

Because some days I don't.

Because there's so much coming at me.

I don't get them done.

I had 40 things to do.

These are the four I'm focused on.

I got these three.

You gotta study your wins.

It's reckless to be successful

without being resolutely clear as to why you're successful.

Because you can't duplicate it.

It's just hit and miss.

And it's like, well, I got back on track faster.

So and so wasn't here today.

And I always seem to be more productive

when they're gone.

There's a message and I got better at this task.

So it didn't take me as long to get it done.

Okay.

Now those are good things to know.

Now how about this one I missed

and you don't go to blame here?

Well, I got called into this meeting.

Somebody delegated.

No, no, no.

What if I were better?

What if I were more prepared?

That maybe it wouldn't have taken as long.

Maybe maybe I could have wasted less time

with trivial conversations

and more time getting this done.

This is what I call weighing myself daily.

See, we gotta, if you're going to hold yourself accountable,

you can't wait till the end of the month

because that gives you a lot of chances

to make bad decisions and develop bad habits.

You have to shrink the distance

between action and accountability.

So you can reward the good things quicker

and correct the wrong things faster.

Weighing yourself daily.

That's the key to holding yourself accountable.

It's key to hold your people accountable.

That's why I like that morning meeting

where we talk about whether or not

they did the max acts the day before.

See, if I'm just waiting till the end of the month

and I'm like, well, that's a long time

for them to do stupid, unproductive stuff.

I want to shovel the piles

while they're small if they're off track, you see.

And actually, Jay, this is how I lost 40 pounds.

It's the same concept.

I went to the doctor.

I said, nothing's working.

I was up 40.

I'd go down 40.

Every diet, and it was just exhausting.

And he said, well, how often do you weigh?

I told him.

He said, well, that's not very often.

He said, try weighing every week.

Make it a Monday.

That way you won't binge as much on the weekends.

You know, weekends we can binge.

Well, that didn't work for me because I'd weigh on Monday

and then I'd go out to dinner Monday night

and they'd bring that dessert cart around

and that 1100 calorie piece of cheesecake would be there.

And I knew I shouldn't have it, but it's be like,

well, you know what?

I don't have to weigh myself for another week.

And I would do this through Thursday.

I still have three more days.

I still have four more days.

And because there was too big of a gap

between action and accountability,

it allowed myself to make bad decisions.

I told my doctor, I'm going to weigh every day.

Oh, don't do that.

Water, weight, bloating, it'll throw you off.

I said, I understand that.

But I also understand the psychology.

If I know I am going to haul my rear end on that scale

every single morning and write it down in my journal,

what it was, I'm going to be paying a lot more attention

to my decisions during that day.

I dropped 40 pounds.

I've kept it off for years.

Never counted calories.

Never did the carb thing.

I just managed decisions better.

There's a principle there.

We got to find ways to weigh ourselves daily

to catch it quicker so we can reinforce the right things

and we keep doing them.

And to catch it quicker when we do the wrong things

so we can correct it faster.

You're not going to hold yourself accountable

until you're clear what you want to accomplish most

to begin with every day.

Otherwise it's just going with a gut feeling.

That will be an excellent clip.

Just in general, so much great advice

throughout this podcast.

And I do have a few questions for you.

Our marketing team had mentioned that they,

we wanted to launch this new segment

of just kind of questions about the guest.

And so I got a few questions for you

before we let you go.

First one is, what was your first job?

My first job was in the food service business.

I was a dishwasher in a restaurant.

And my dad had restaurants.

I became a short order cook at a truck stop

and at his steakhouse.

And when they went out of business,

I started selling insurance door to door.

Had a friend say, you might like selling cars

more than selling death policies.

That sounded like an upgrade and it changed my life.

But I was a dishwasher.

That was my first job as a teenager.

Other than cutting lawns, you know,

doing that sort of thing.

Such a cool thing.

What time do you get up in the morning?

I get up at four.

And so, you know, I like to strike early.

I don't even need an alarm.

I've conditioned my,

I can get up at four in any time zone in the world

and how to manage my energy, manage my days.

And I get more done by six

than what most people get done

in a good part of the day.

So I love to strike early.

Never have to recover from a fast start.

That is great advice.

And last question,

if you weren't doing this in,

when I say this,

you kind of are all encompassing anyway,

but if you weren't an author, speaker, so on,

what would you do?

Oh, I go back and sell cars.

I love selling cars.

I mean, I love selling cars.

Hey, if you can cook an egg or you can sell a car,

you'll always have a job.

In fact, you can have two jobs.

You can sell cars and then you can cook

the eggs on your days off.

But I love to sell.

I love it.

It changed my life financially.

I, you know,

you build your own business within a business

and it'll take you as far as you want to go,

which is why I have so little tolerance for people

who screw up this business

by not fully maximizing all the opportunities,

not working on their craft,

not working on themselves.

It has so much to offer.

I'd absolutely go back to sell cars.

And I'm not saying I may not do that someday.

This has been maybe one of my favorite conversations.

I didn't expect any less just based on

our prior conversations

and you're a remarkably talented person.

There's the book Raving Fans

and you've made me a raving fan of you.

I do have to give a shout out to Bill Demary

at the Tom Wood Group.

You know, Bill,

Bill was the one that introduced me to you

in all of your work.

And I feel like I'm just scratching the surface right now.

I had done a podcast with Bill where he talked about

your writing and your podcast

and everything that you're doing.

And he consumes you every day, right?

He is using your work every single day.

And I feel like I'm in that boat now.

Bill has kind of converted me

and then just talking to you.

It's been such an absolute pleasure getting to know you.

And I get why Bill was such a raving fan before.

It has been just mind blowing to me

how fun this has been to get to know you.

Well, it's been really good to get to know you too.

And I appreciate all those kind words.

And Bill is one of those hungry, humble guys

that despite all his success,

boy, he still wants more.

And you know, you rally around the bills.

You rally around those types of people.

And they're always fresh.

They're always energized because they're always learning.

And there's a direct connection

between those things there.

But this has been fun for me.

It's been a privilege and a pleasure.

I appreciate you thinking of me and reaching out.

And we'll stay in touch.

The Badgers Coach Guard called me

and they may bring me back in October.

We're seeing if it'll work out to work.

We've got a bunch of new guys.

We've got to see what we got there.

But I may be in the area.

Maybe we'll get together for some brats in a beer or something.

I sure hope so.

And where can people learn more about you?

Yeah, go our website really learn to lead

if you spell it out just like it sounds.

Learn to lead.com has a lot about us.

And if you're on LinkedIn,

we post a lot of good stuff on LinkedIn.

You can find me on LinkedIn and LinkedIn

will take you to the website as well.

Those would be the best spots.

If you can't find Dave, you're not looking.

Dave is everywhere once you start looking.

So I really, really appreciate you taking the time

to do this show and hope we can do it again someday.

This was so much fun.

Let's do it.

I appreciate it.

Say hi to your son.

I hope he has a great breakout first season

in competitive basketball.

Thank you so much.

Take care, buddy.

That wraps up another episode of Beyond the Wrench.

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