The Porsche 911 is a famous sports car, and for a long time it used an air-cooled engine. The question is asking when Porsche stopped using air cooling and switched to a different cooling system.
An air-cooled engine uses moving air to keep the engine from overheating, instead of using coolant and a radiator. When a car switches cooling methods, it can change how the engine stays at the right temperature.
Ford is the automaker at the center of the episode’s personal story and brand rivalry. The speaker contrasts Ford with other brands their grandfather preferred, framing the Mustang as a historically important American car even if their family didn’t like Ford. This sets up why the Mustang topic matters to them.
“GM Chevy Dodge” is shorthand for multiple American automakers and their brands. GM (General Motors) includes Chevrolet, while Dodge is a separate brand within the broader Chrysler/ Stellantis family historically. The speaker uses it to explain family loyalty and how brand identity shaped their upbringing.
Opel is a European automaker that the speaker’s grandfather drove, despite living in rural Northeast Georgia. The mention is used to highlight the irony of a “no Fords” family that still had a foreign-brand preference. It’s a cultural detail that explains how their grandfather’s tastes didn’t follow simple American-brand rules.
“Technical specs” are the car’s measurable details, like what engine it has and how big or powerful it is. The guest is saying the book includes both the fun enthusiast stuff and the real numbers. That helps you understand the car beyond just opinions.
A chief engineer is the top technical leader for a new car project. They help make sure all the engineering pieces work together and that the car meets the goals. The guest is saying they interviewed the person who led the Mustang’s development.
A one-on-one interview is when you talk to someone directly, without other people chiming in. The guest is saying the conversation was long and very detailed, and it ended up shaping the book. It’s basically how they got the inside information.
“Fox body” is the nickname for a specific generation of Ford Mustangs. People use it because that era is especially popular with car fans and has lots of parts and support.
They’re saying the book covers Mustangs in a very complete, organized way across multiple major eras. Think of it like going through the Mustang story step-by-step, generation by generation.
They’re talking about sharing Mustang history in a way you can listen to while you’re driving or working on your car. It’s basically a “learn the story of Mustangs” format.
A mid-engine layout puts the engine closer to the middle of the car instead of the front. The mention here is interesting because it suggests early Mustang ideas explored different engineering approaches.
Concept
variants of that there were
Even within one Mustang generation, there can be many different versions. That’s why two Mustangs from the same era can feel and perform very differently.
The “car show circuit” is basically the network of car events where new cars get shown to the public. The question here is whether the Mustang was introduced through that kind of hype or more through everyday market momentum.
GM is short for General Motors, one of the big U.S. automakers. They’re mentioned because the hosts are comparing how different companies promoted cars through big public events.
“Auto-Rama” is used as an example of a touring car show format where automakers and dealers displayed vehicles to attract buyers. It’s a useful historical marketing concept because it explains how early car culture and consumer interest were built.
In automotive history, “mythology” often refers to how marketing narratives can shape public perception of a car’s origins. Here, the speaker explains that a 1963 Mustang show car was created to reinforce the idea that there was a connection to the earlier 1962 concept, even though the engineering link was “total coincidence.”
A concept car is basically a “show car” that’s made to show an idea. It’s not necessarily something you can buy, and it’s often used to generate excitement and attention.
Term
V4
A V4 is a type of engine where there are four cylinders arranged in a V shape. It’s a less common setup than the usual V6/V8, so the hosts are treating it like a surprising piece of engine history.
“Wide angle” means the two sides of the V-shaped engine are spread farther apart than usual. That can make the engine behave differently, but it can still run fine if it’s engineered correctly.
“Closing gaps” means the GTD was getting closer to the cars in front lap after lap. It’s a sign the car is working well and the driver can push harder.
That means the tires got so worn down that you could see the inside structure. It’s basically a “you really pushed it” sign, and it’s not something you’d want to do on public roads.
Dearborn Assembly refers to Ford’s manufacturing facility in Dearborn, Michigan. Mentioning the plant matters for provenance—where a car was built can be part of its documented history.
A coach builder is a company that takes a basic car body and does special finishing work. In this case, they helped turn the Ford hardtop into a convertible.
Shelby American is the company behind many famous Shelby performance Mustangs. Here, they’re mentioned because they took certain Ford cars and turned them into GT 350s.
The Lamborghini 350 GT is an early Lamborghini sports/grand touring car. In the episode, it’s mentioned because some were modified by Shelby American into GT 350 versions. So it’s connected to a specific performance conversion story.
Spark plug wires help send electricity to the spark plugs so the engine can run. Saying they’re original means the car still has the same kind of parts it left with.
The air filter cleans the air going into the engine. Keeping it original is a sign of how untouched the car is, even though filters are usually replaced over time.
Even if a classic car is mostly original, you still have to replace things that wear out or need service. They’re saying only a few maintenance items were changed.
A power top is the convertible roof that you can open and close with a button instead of doing it by hand. It’s basically the “easy mode” for having a convertible.
Conversion cost means the extra money required to change the car into a different version—like making a coupe into a convertible. In this case, it was so expensive that it made the car much harder to justify.
They’re talking about warranty coverage that’s separated by what part of the car you’re using. In this case, the body and the powertrain had different warranty sources and terms.
Powertrain warranty means warranty coverage for the car’s main moving parts that make it go—like the engine and transmission. They’re saying the details weren’t super clear for buyers.
Concept
market positioning vs buyer value
They’re basically explaining that the Mustang convertible was priced in a way that didn’t feel like a good deal. Some people wanted it anyway, but others looked at the price and thought they’d rather buy something else.
The Mustang II is a specific Mustang generation from Ford. People didn’t always like it at first, but later more enthusiasts started appreciating it—so it’s become more valuable.
This phrase means a car gets treated like the “unwanted” one—people make fun of it or ignore it. The hosts are saying that happened to the Mustang II and the Porsche 914 before their reputations improved.
The Porsche 914 is a Porsche model the speaker mentions to make a comparison. The idea is that some cars get hated early, then later people realize they’re actually good and they become more valuable.
They’re talking about the “II” in the Mustang II name. The idea is that Ford tried to make it sound like a fresh start, but people still didn’t like it at first.
Concept
radical change
This means the new Mustang was a big departure from what came before. The speaker is saying it changed a lot compared to the earlier, more traditional Mustang style.
Car
Barracudas
The speaker groups several classic American muscle cars—Barracudas included—into a category of models that were losing relevance and production support. In context, they’re describing how these cars were effectively being phased out.
Car
Javelins
The Pontiac Javelin is referenced as one of the muscle cars that the speaker says was headed toward extinction. The broader point is that multiple competitors’ performance models were losing demand around the same time.
The Plymouth Barracuda is a muscle car made by Plymouth. The podcast groups it with other similar cars from the same time period. It’s mentioned because people often talk about these classic performance models together.
The AMC Javelin is a muscle car made by AMC. The podcast mentions it along with other similar cars to talk about that general era of performance vehicles. It’s included as one of the examples people remember from that time.
Term
wreck and pinion steering
This is a steering system that helps the car respond more directly to steering inputs. The idea is that updating steering hardware made the car feel more modern and helped it keep going through later generations.
Concept
gilding
The speaker says magazines were calling the upcoming Mustang “the gilding,” which sounds like a transcription error for “the gilding”/“the big thing”/a nickname. Regardless, the point is about how the press framed the Mustang’s arrival and expectations before it launched.
The Ford Probe is a Ford sports car model. In this episode, it’s mentioned as part of a story about how a certain sequence of events played out. The focus is more on the timeline than on how it works.
This is about internal information leaks from an automaker to the media—how plans and intentions get out before official announcements. In automotive history, these leaks can shape public perception, dealer expectations, and even how quickly a company adjusts strategy.
That phrase describes a smaller, more efficient setup: the engine drives the front wheels, and the engine has four cylinders. The point here is that the Mustang could have gone that route, but it didn’t.
Concept
Watergate scandal
Watergate was a famous political scandal. They’re using it as a comparison—like a secret insider helped reveal the truth, which is what the speaker says happened in the Mustang story.
The Ford Falcon is a Ford car line, and its basic platform (the main structure and layout) was used as a starting point for other models. The episode mentions it because the early Mustang was built using that kind of underlying foundation. That’s why people connect the two cars.
“Platform sharing” means two cars are built on similar basic foundations to save time and money. “Parts sharing” means they reuse some components, and in this segment they’re talking about how much of that happened between the Pinto and Mustang II.
The Ford Maverick is another Ford model from the same general time period. Here, it’s mentioned as a possible alternative that Ford considered before deciding on a Pinto-based approach for the Mustang II.
The Ford Pinto is a smaller Ford from the same era. In this story, it’s important because Ford looked at it as a starting point for the Mustang II, and some parts ended up being shared.
Wheelbase is the length of the car’s “base,” measured from the front wheels to the rear wheels. If you increase it, the car’s proportions and how it drives can change.
Spindles are parts that help hold the wheel assembly and connect it to the suspension. Even if two cars are different overall, some of these smaller suspension/steering pieces can be similar.
A hatchback is a car where the back opens like a door, instead of having a separate trunk lid. Here, they’re saying the Mustang II hatchback’s shape reminded people of the Pinto.
“Rustang” is a slang nickname for a Mustang that has rust. People say it when a car’s body or frame has corrosion, usually because it’s old or wasn’t cared for.
A “four cylinder engine” is a smaller engine with four cylinders. It usually means the car isn’t as powerful as the V6/V8 versions, but it can be cheaper to run and easier to maintain.
“Chevets” refers to the Chevrolet Chevette, a small, budget-friendly compact from the 1970s and early 1980s. The joke about getting “smoked” by Chevets is really about comparing performance expectations between a Mustang and a much cheaper economy car.
A “four speed stick” is a manual transmission where you shift gears yourself, and there are four gears to use. It can feel more fun and connected than an automatic.
A V8 is a type of engine with eight cylinders. People associate it with the classic “muscle car” experience—strong acceleration and a distinctive sound.
Concept
electric market is kind of cooling
They’re saying EV interest or sales momentum has slowed down a bit. That can influence whether companies keep pushing only electric cars or continue offering gas-powered options too.
This means a smaller engine (four cylinders) that has a turbo to help it make more power. It can feel quick and fun, and it often weighs less than a bigger V8.
This is comparing old prices to today’s money. The point is to see whether a car was truly affordable in its time, not just what the sticker price was.
The Nürburgring is a very famous race track in Germany. People use it like a scoreboard—if a car can do a fast lap there, it gets a lot of attention, and sometimes that attention makes the car cost more.
Robert is talking about his own 1998 Ford Mustang convertible. He’s using it to illustrate that the Mustang can feel big and different compared with smaller sports cars.
Lotus is a British brand strongly associated with lightweight sports cars and performance through mass reduction. The speaker explicitly identifies as a “Lotus guy,” reinforcing the segment’s theme that low weight and balance matter as much as raw power.
Concept
Mustang electric vehicle
They’re talking about the Mustang becoming an electric car while still looking like a Mustang. EVs can feel and drive differently than gas cars, even if the body style stays similar.
The Porsche Cayenne is Porsche’s SUV. The point here is that when Porsche first made an SUV, many longtime Porsche fans thought it was “wrong” for the brand—similar to how some Mustang fans react to a new direction.
The hosts discuss how naming a vehicle can either honor or dilute brand heritage. They argue that using a historically meaningful “Model” name (like the proposed “Model E”) could better communicate a new direction while reducing backlash from existing fans.
The Mach-E is Ford’s electric car that’s styled to look like a Mustang. The host is saying it’s a good car, but it doesn’t give the same sound and “feel” as a regular Mustang.
A battery pack is the energy storage system in an electric vehicle, supplying power to the electric motor. The speaker is arguing that because the car is battery-powered, it doesn’t deliver the same “experience” as a traditional gas Mustang.
“Styling cues” are design elements that visually connect one model to another—in this case, Mustang design features applied to the Mach-E. The speaker lists specific cues (horse/grille and tri-bar taillights) to explain why the car looks “right” even if it doesn’t feel the same.
Speedway Motors is an auto-parts and motorsports company. Here, they’re also connected to a museum, which is why it came up in the conversation about researching cars.
The Museum of American Speed is a car-history museum. The speaker is saying they visited it in person as part of their research for writing about automotive history.
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This is The Thing About Cars, a podcast for college enthusiasts and the people who love
it.
Hello and welcome back.
This is The Thing About Cars.
I'm your host, Mickey Desai, very happy to be back in the microphone with my friends
around the table.
Well, we've got Dave Pauley.
How are you, Dave?
You know, slightly titillated.
Misty just threatened me with a ball gag.
Ben, how are you, sir?
I'm pretty fantastic.
How are you?
I'm doing all right.
Tim, how are you?
I'm springtime fresh.
Springtime.
And last but not least, for our regular crew, there's Misty in the Netherlands.
How is it, Misty?
I'm good.
I'm just rooting around in the toy box.
Okay.
Our guest for today is Robert Kennedy, author of Mustang Unbridled, or is it just unbridled?
Forgive me.
My copy is the one you have in your background there, Mustang Unbridled.
Yes, Mustang Unbridled is the new version.
How are you, Robert?
I'm great.
Happy to be here.
Excellent.
This book, before we get into it, I must say this is, I just, you know, Tim, stop me.
Do the trivia.
Sure.
Okay.
So, Robert, since you're new to the show, we asked the trivia question up front.
We've got the whole length of the show for people to furiously look it up on the internet,
and then we give you the answer at the end.
So our question for today, since we're talking about cars that debuted in the 1964 model
year, when did the Porsche 911 stop using an air-cooled engine?
Was it 1989, 1994, 1997, or do they still make some that have air-cooled engines?
So our options are 89, 94, 97, or you can still get them.
We'll come back at the end of the show for the exciting answer.
Wow.
What a fun question, Tim.
Thank you.
I know.
That's an appropriate question, too, in that I used to work for Porsche.
I saw that.
Let me do a quick official thing here.
I'm going to read the bio, a very short bio that I found on Amazon's website to introduce
Robert.
Excuse me, and I'm going to have to edit this out.
Robert M. Kennedy is a graduate of Wyoming Technical Institute, a former Porsche Premier
technician and a lifelong Mustang enthusiast.
In 2020, Kennedy wrote and produced a zero-budget documentary film, Adapt or Die, the Mustang
2 story.
Kennedy's documentary inspired John M. Chlor, enthusiast communications manager for Ford
Performance, to engage him as a contributing writer for performance.Ford.com.
Kennedy then formed unleaded-only publications to self-publish book projects.
Since then, he's proven a dynamic speaker and engaging in popular podcast guests, lucky
for us.
His Mustang insights have been featured in Open Road Magazine and presentations at the
Motor Car Cavalcade Concorde de Elegance, Robert resides in Nebraska.
So that's a lot.
I mean, my first snarky comment is, you must really love Mustangs.
I do.
Lifelong obsession.
Well, now you know where all of, you know, like we are opposite sides of the coin.
You know, we have one Kennedy who's, you know, in love with Mustangs and someone who...
I was about to say, to set the tone for you, Robert, as a guest, Misty is an avowed enemy
of Ford.
My first car was a Mustang 2.
I am an avowed Mustang fanatic.
You're going to be bopping back and forth between us off, I'll show.
Fair enough.
I am mature enough to recognize the Mustang's place and, you know, especially in American
automotive history, but my grandfather was a mechanic and he would rise from his grave
across the ocean and slap me on the back of the head if I ever bought a Ford.
So I have that to contend with and my grandfather was strictly GM Chevy Dodge.
Of course.
Anything but Ford because the man drove an Opel and how a man living in the hinterlands
of the Northeast Georgia mountains managed to find and drive Opels like that.
I don't know, but that was how I grew up.
So I was taught that we are a, you know, despite our humble background, but we are a discerning
family and we do not drive Fords.
So, Robert, this is the most comprehensive Mustang book I've ever picked up.
I mean, you get everything in here from just good old fandom to technical specs to
politics behind the scenes.
How, how did you get all this information, first of all?
Obsessive compulsive research and several first hand interviews.
I was very honored to be able to speak directly with everybody from from Jack Rausch and Steve
Selene to Vaughn Gittin, Jr., Edwin Crens, the chief engineer in charge of developing
the S650 Mustang.
I waited for about a year and a half to speak with him.
Basically, no holds barred one-on-one interview.
And he finally did do that with me.
We chatted for an hour and a half straight.
And essentially that interview basically became the almost almost as a transcript, the final
chapter of the book.
OK, so what started your obsession with Mustangs?
You know, what really started it, I wish I had it in front of me.
It's in the closet across the room, a little matchbox car of a 1979 yellow Mustang little
Fox body hatchback.
It was my favorite toy as a little guy, even before I knew what a Mustang was.
And I think as I grew up, recognizing that shape as I looked at real cars and saw real
Fox bodies that did it.
Yeah, it's snowballed from there.
Right.
So now this is sort of a culmination or a stop along the way.
Are you I mean, obviously, you're not going to lose your love of Mustangs.
But how now that you've written this book, I mean, it is so comprehensive.
What else is there to discover and write about?
Well, on Mustang, until something more happens, you might have hit the nail on the head.
That might be it for the moment.
I tried very hard to not leave anything out all seven generations from A to Z, so to speak.
But I do hope to revisit it someday in the future.
We do have an audiobook version coming out so people can listen to Mustang history
while driving their Mustang or working on their Mustang in the garage.
But we do have additional projects in the works covering other other brands
and other aspects of the industry.
Dave, did you have a question or Ben, did you have a question?
Actually, I did have one that in doing this, especially having a lifelong passion for it.
And in my books, I have occasionally realized I've had a lifelong passion
for something and didn't know crap about it.
Did you find did you discover something in the Mustang history
that you were both surprised to discover and surprised that you didn't know?
Gosh, yeah, several times over.
I mean, I am OCD about it.
I did know enough to take the leap of faith that I could put it all down on paper.
But along the way, there were numerous revelations.
Everything from the really old stuff, you know, first generation
with different Boss 9 prototypes, you know, mid-engine versions and what not.
The truth behind the naming of the car all the way on up to some of the newer things
in that when I started writing this in 2020, the newest one that I had personally owned
was an SN95. I'd driven S550 GT350Rs and things like that.
But I hadn't immersed myself, for example, with some of the S197s
and discovering how many different variants of that there were, you know,
from various tuners and aftermarket type companies.
I had never known about a Black Widow version of the 197.
Just stuff like that that would pop up and I go, wait, hold up, huh?
You know, and then you got to make some more phone calls.
Right. Among the things you've, I'm sorry, Ben, Tim, did I hear somebody?
Yeah, Robert, I was wondering, you know, going back to the very origin of the Mustang,
is this a car that made its debut kind of like on the car show circuit
or did it come around, you know, more organically?
How do you mean?
Well, I know a lot of, you know, cars, you know, you would go to like,
I know what GM called it, like the auto-rama where it was like a touring car show
and I'm not sure Ford had their version of it.
Was it a car that debuted that way or and they decided, OK,
let's take this to production or is it a different route?
Yes and no.
They did want to have a car for the 1962 show season
that the public could really focus their attention on.
They didn't know what that would be.
So they did have some management types go down to look at various designs,
some artwork, and that is how they ended up coming up with the 62,
the little two seat V4 mid-engine car.
And then that was completely unrelated, totally, totally unrelated to the production car,
which almost, of course, didn't use the Mustang name when it did.
After the 62 concept, that was total coincidence.
And then they actually created the Mustang to 1963
show car to create the mythology that the total fabrication
that there was any connection between them.
And that car, that was pretty neat on the 15 month long book tour
that I was on to promote the original version,
which was just unbridled before it became now Mustang unbridled.
I was at the Carlisle All Ford show in Pennsylvania,
and they actually had the 63 prototype there, the concept car.
And they put it in a booth immediately next to me
and my booth where I was signing copies of the book.
And they said at one point they came to my booth and they said,
hey, it runs, but we don't really want to fire it up right now.
We need to move it.
Would you help us push it across the floor?
And I'm like, I guess the 63 Mustang too.
Yeah, so I did.
And I had no idea.
This is another moment of revelation that there is a huge dent
on the back driver's side corner of that car.
Somebody somewhere, I don't know if they lost their job or not,
backed it into something.
It's a you can stick your fist in it.
It's that big of a dent. Wow.
So I raised my hand and said, I didn't do that.
I always started moving it.
Very cool.
I got it. I'm fascinated by the idea of the V4.
I know that you could get that in like what a sob sonnet back in the
in the in the 60s that did Ford ever watch this in production.
Yeah, they they did use it in in a German Ford.
The name is escaping me under pressure here, but it's in the book.
OK, yeah. Ben, you said some launches as well.
Yeah, the launches from Italy used some V4s back in the 60s as well.
In fact, I know a guy who has one.
It's a very small displacement wide angle engine.
It's it's weird, but it works.
It might have been on this. Does that sound right?
Ford, Thomas, was that a German car back then?
That was, yeah. Yeah, I think that had the V4.
It's it's weird, but it works.
I think that's the price to all of us.
Yeah. Yeah.
Robert, you've driven a variety of Mustangs.
You're having your hands on a variety of Mustangs.
Is there a favorite?
You know, I think the one that would be a favorite,
if somebody at Ford would give me the opportunity, would be a GTD.
I was out recently at Motorsport Park Hastings
in kind of Central Nebraska.
It's a heck of a racetrack.
And Todd Soderquist, who works with Ford Racing,
had brought a GTD down from Detroit.
And he was actually running laps with everybody else out there.
So there were there are Shelby,
five hundreds and all this out there running with him.
And yet he was closing gaps and all this sounding amazing.
But you could tell just listening that it wasn't even pushing it hard.
And I asked him when he came up and off the track, I said,
how much harder could you push that?
He goes, Oh, a lot.
But I got cords showing through the tires
and I still got to drive back to Dearborn on it.
So no, I would love to drive something,
you know, the pinnacle of engineering right now with it like that.
But beggars can't be choosers.
I am thankful for the blessings that I do have.
I personally own a Mustang two convertible.
It's number six of twenty four that were ever actually built
as hard tops at Dearborn assembly and then shipped by rail
directly to Emma's coach builders in Clearwater, Florida,
very similar to how they had been shipping
two plus two fastbacks from San Jose to LAX
for Shelby American to turn them into GT 350s 12 years prior.
That car, I run a little registry page for these classic two,
as they're called, convertible owners.
And so far, we know that at least 10 of those 24 are still around.
And of those 10, this one that I have is actually the lowest mileage
at 8000 miles on it, unrestored.
It's an incredible condition.
It's only got the V six and a four speed.
It is not in a hurry to go anywhere.
But it's original right down to the spark plug wires.
The the the the belts, the hoses, the air filter is original.
The only things changed on it are the battery, the four tires,
it's sitting on and the oil filter.
That's amazing.
So I still get a little chill when I go out and drive it any time.
You know, I drop the top.
It's power top and cruise around smooth and silent.
Take my kids, get some ice cream.
It's a fun little piece of Mustang history that most people don't know even
yes. Well, yeah, I was not aware until just now that there was such a thing.
They were going to build 100 of them right off the bat.
But what they ran into is the problem that a Mustang in 1977,
the base price was three thousand seven hundred and two dollars.
The conversion cost for MS to make a hard top, a drop top was four thousand five
hundred dollars. So it more than doubled the price with one line item.
They ended up in a situation where you could buy a brand new Corvette for
eighty eight hundred bucks with a warranty.
You could buy a brand new Porsche 911 for about fourteen thousand dollars
or you could get into one of these Mustang two convertibles
that you had a warranty on the body through MS.
You had a warranty on the powertrain through Ford, but it's all kind of murky
for usually between nine thousand five hundred and eleven thousand five hundred
dollars. So they had the folks who could afford one that expected,
frankly, a little bit better car.
And then you had the Mustang enthusiasts that desperately wanted a brand new
convertible, but they couldn't justify that they're paying for three cars
and getting one.
Right. That kind of brings to you up a thought I was having is a good connection
point, the Mustang to now I'm a little older than I look.
I was born in the late sixties.
So my formative years as a car enthusiast were kind of, you know,
from starting about nineteen eighty or so really before that,
but that was really becoming cognizant of things.
And so when I was growing up, the Mustang two was kind of the car
that everybody loved to hate.
I think especially once the Fox came out, you know, people kind of looked back
and said, huh, but it seems to me like history is kind of indicating
the two a little bit. What's your take on that?
I totally agree with everything you just said.
It definitely had the redheaded stepchild treatment there for a while,
which I know all too well from my time at Porsche were for a time
everybody hated on the nine fourteen, right, which is a great little car.
And values have come up recently on that as now anything air cooled
is coveted and the Mustang two is the nine fourteen of the Mustang lineage.
There was a time in your correct in the eighties where the Mustang two
was no longer the new car, but it also wasn't the classic car.
It was just kind of the other car.
My thing that I always try to relay to people and I know
John Clure over at Ford, who was the guy that talked me into writing this
in the first place, he shares this opinion in nineteen seventy three,
September seventy three, when that car debuted,
it was such a radical change for the big horse before it.
And they they tacked on the Roman the Roman numeral at the end of it, too,
which was supposed to be a good thing.
But I think it ended up actually being negative
because it made too clear of a divide.
But all these other muscle cars, you know, whether it's four four twos
or barracudas or javelins or anything like this,
these were all generally being, you know, taken to a graveyard.
So they were going extinct and Ford, which had shut down
each of its extra two facilities for manufacturing,
it had gone down to just Dearborn, building Mustangs,
because there wasn't enough demand to keep the other two open.
They had to reopen San Jose just to keep up with demand.
And it was advancements like the wreck and pinion steering,
which would continue the hatchback, which would continue into the fox.
That made it more relevant and able to survive that time period.
Yeah, well, no, go ahead, but it also makes me think of the the thing
I was hearing back when the probe was about to come out,
that it was going to be a Mustang and all the car magazines were calling it the
gilding. The thing with the probe, too,
that that whole sequence happened the way it did because someone inside of Ford
leaked that intention out to the automotive press,
knowing full well that this is going to get reported and people are not going to
respond well. That guy in Ford that very much risked his entire
career there kept his name quiet for decades.
This book is the first book that actually names him.
In fact, the early version that has 900 plus
photos in it, I actually have a photo of him and
copies of the letter that he sent to Mustang Monthly
Magazine saying, hey, this is what's going to happen.
So because he's now to the point where he's up there in years and he's worried
about his own mortality and the idea that he might pass and nobody knows that he
was the guy that blew the lid on the story and saved Mustang from becoming a
front-wheel drive four cylinder powered Japanese car.
He was like as deep throat was to the Watergate scandal.
I had mentioned at the beginning of the interview that I had several one on one
interviews with with significant people.
And so I was interviewing that guy actually for a different reason with the book
and almost at the end of the conversation, he said as an aside, he says, you know,
I'm that guy. And I didn't know whether to believe him or not,
because it's almost like saying I'm Santa Claus.
But I did know and I do know Donald Far, the editor at Mustang Times,
and he was the editor back then.
So I called him and I said, hey,
he just told me that he's the guy.
Blah, blah, blah. Does that sound right to you?
And there's a long pause.
And Donald said, and he told you you could print this.
I said, yeah, he was, yeah, that's how I remember it. Wow.
So that was breaking news 35 years after the fact.
Yeah, I'm going to think that needs to be a movie.
I'm going to bleep out his name, right? Yeah, because you just said it.
The first name. Right.
I'm rolling back to that Mustang to the original Mustang based on the
the Falcon chassis.
What was Mustang to based on?
Would it share a platform with the initial development process
was actually looking at using Maverick or using Pinto.
They ended up going with the direction that started with Pinto.
But the reality of it is that they so heavily reworked that platform,
adding length to the wheelbase, adding width to the track.
Aside from the rear wheel housings and a little bit of the rear trunk floor pan,
there's really not much that carries over directly aside from, you know,
spindles and little things that typically translate from one car to the next.
Anyhow, it's about 10 percent, according to Ford's internal documents,
about 10 percent parts shared between a Pinto
and a Mustang to until the Mustang to came out.
And then they actually shared some parts retroactively to upgrade Pinto.
Those are just funny parts.
It's funny you say that because the the addition of the hatchback,
which is the model Mustang to I had. Yeah.
The hatchback gave it just enough aesthetic reference to the Pinto.
And, you know, for to your point earlier,
that people didn't give Mustang to much credit at all.
My college roommates referred to my car as the Pintang.
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
That's better than what I got when my first car was an 82
little Fox body, a little four eye Mustang.
It was rusted so badly.
Everybody in my class referred to it as a rustang.
Well, you know, my brother had a 79,
the only Mustang that's been owned in our family.
He was the early nineties.
He was, you know, not making much money at the time.
He bought this used 79 off of one of my mom's coworkers.
It was baby blue.
It had a four cylinder engine and it had an automatic.
There was nothing particularly exciting about it.
And he liked to make jokes about getting smoked by Chevets.
But, you know, but it was reliable, at least it didn't ever leave him on the road.
All their fun little cars.
I loved mine. You know, it was it was I was 16 years old.
It was five hundred dollars. It was all mine.
And it was bright red with a four speed stick.
So you can't. Yeah.
Robert, I've got two more questions for you. Yeah.
And just to give you a heads up,
I ask a weird question of our listener at the end of the at the end of our interview.
So you you may get something really just out of left field for my love.
My very last time I was about to say, OK, Dave, out of my head,
you're not being enough to be in there by yourself.
But you know what?
There's so many things in here to play with.
That's what she said, she knows.
I can't I can't say what I was about to say.
I just can't.
OK, Robert, a friend of ours really, really disdained
Ford's move to take away the V8 engine.
And there was, you know, what do you think about that?
I've been told a few things in confidence over the course of the book here.
I want to make sure I don't say anything out of place.
I'll phrase it my own personal suspicion.
I think we came closer to actually losing
V8 Mustangs in the foreseeable future than what they might want to admit,
especially after the the electric market is kind of cooling here.
That being said, they seem pretty committed to to stick in with the V8 now.
I personally love the idea of exploring hybridization.
The idea like Corvette has been doing
recently with with an electrified front axle to complement
gas power to the back of the car.
If they did something like that in the future, I think would be amazing.
I would love a all wheel drive option for superior handling.
And admittedly, even EcoBoosts now, they make more power
than GTs did in the 80s and the 90s.
And you get the superior fuel economy.
So do they really need a V8 anymore?
I don't personally think so.
But the tradition is appreciated.
And the possibilities now that they can do so much with a four,
they can do even more with an eight.
And I hope that they keep going so long as they keep price in mind
because we can't all afford a GTD supercar that's valued as much as my house.
Yeah, I've driven some of the recent four cylinder turbo ones.
You know, as rental cars in my business travels, and yeah, they were absolutely fun.
They're delightful cars.
Yeah, and not as much front end weight as the V8 either.
But I mean, and that only improves the handling.
The thing with Mustang, when it was brand new in the spring of 64,
it was cheap, pretty fun.
You know, it was a gorgeous design that Gale Halderman had sketched out.
And then everybody had turned into reality.
It was a ton of performance for the money.
But the money was so minimal.
I mean, people couldn't justify not buying it.
Yeah, the thing is that with inflation, though,
the dollar today is worth less than a dime in 1964.
If we translate the original $2,368 base price of a 65 Mustang to today,
it's about twenty two thousand seven hundred some dollars.
Yeah, obviously, we're starting Mustang pricing in 2026, about ten grand higher than that.
If they would have had a base price of three thousand seven seven hundred dollars back then,
it would have negatively impacted the the amazing launch selling twenty
what a million units in twenty two months back then,
just like dropping ten grand off the price tag now would dramatically increase sales.
So I hope that with future versions of the Mustang
that they keep that in mind.
Yeah, plus it was never intended to be a world record breaking,
you know, Nurburgring laps and all this.
That was never the intent of Mustang originally.
It's awesome that they can do it.
But what bugs the snot out of me, too, that anything that's even remotely fun today
is going to have like a huge price premium stuck on it just because of that.
Yeah, regardless of whether it's worth it or not.
And Ben, Ben, you know that that poor people are not allowed to have fun.
Robert, since the Mustang has gone through so many different generations
with its long history, I assume you've driven the vast majority of them
are from generation to generation.
Have you always felt the go like, OK, this feels like a Mustang when I drive it
or are there like huge leaps or variances when you go from one generation to the next?
Well, there are huge leaps for sure.
And I definitely have my preferences.
Personally, I I'm a small sports car kind of guy.
I worked for Porsche for five years.
For five years, I would finish working at Porsche for the day
and I would go across the street to the parking garage and get into my 1998 Mustang convertible.
And I would think, God, this thing is a tank compared to the little
nine elevens and boxers I've been driving for the previous six, seven hours.
But if you look at an SN 95 or a Fox body or a Mustang two next to an S one
ninety seven, five, fifty or six, fifty Mustang, you're like, Oh, they're so small and cute.
The big horses from seventy one to seventy three.
They look bigger than what we've got now, but they're actually not.
I mean, it's it's within about an inch now.
So my personal preferences is small and sporty.
I used to have Mazda Miata back in the day and it was it was a ton of fun.
And now you're talking about the magic word.
Oh, now you know, it's all about power to weight ratio.
Yeah, that's absolutely.
I mean, you don't need to have a thousand horsepower if you've got a thousand pounds out of the car.
That's a Lotus guy myself, so I can definitely relate.
Oh, I love Lotus. Yeah, I'm sure.
I've got a lawn plus two.
It's like a hundred twenty horsepower or something.
And oh, my God, it's the most fun thing I've ever driven.
Oh, for sure. Hey, Ben.
Yeah, remember what the Mazda MX five Miata engine sound is based on?
Well, almost everything about the Miata is Lotus Elan inspired.
Right.
La da.
I got a couple of parts in mine.
Yeah, I have the twenty sixteen MX five in D.
I got her in twenty sixteen.
I'm very happy to announce that I have finally hit over sixty one thousand kilometers.
Wow. Claudette.
All right, and Robert, my last my last question for you, I don't know about the gang.
When Mustang came out as an electric vehicle in the shape that it has,
a lot of us dropped our jaws.
And in my mind, I was thinking, what is Ford thinking?
And I just I'm just us, just you and me and the rest of our crew here.
Personal reaction.
What do you think about this bearing the Mustang name?
My personal reaction was based on for me, it felt like history repeating itself.
I was with Porsche when we launched the Cayenne for two thousand three.
Oh, yeah.
People because Porsche had never built anything other than two door sports cars to that point.
So a four door, very heavy SUV was sacrilege.
It was blasphemy, right?
People seemed so angry at us.
We joked constantly that people were going to start throwing maltoff cocktails
through a showroom window.
But at least we had the good sense not to brand it a nine eleven.
It was Cayenne.
It was its own unique thing.
My personal opinion on the Mach E then seeing that happen was that I wish
personally, I wish that they would have named it Model E.
I think that could have honored brand heritage in that the Model T
essentially launched a century of gasoline powered fords.
And the Model E could do that in theory for electrified fords.
I think it would have been smart.
I think it would have been nice.
And it wouldn't have ruffled all the feathers of so many Mustang enthusiasts.
I've driven a Mach E. I've driven a couple of Mach E's.
They are nice cars.
Yeah.
I have no complaint about them other than that to me personally, in my own opinion.
It would do nothing to satisfy my visceral emotional urge to go out and drive my Mustang.
It doesn't rumble.
It's it's my Mustangs are slower, a lot slower.
But there's a rumble.
There's a smell.
There's there are feelings that may actually indicate inferiority, but it's emotional.
And it's an experience that I don't get out of anything with with a battery pack.
You know, I think Robert just took took us all to church today.
Amen, brother.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I partly agree.
My thing is if it was the only thing they were calling a Mustang, I'd be pretty upset.
But since it's not, I just shrug and go, hey, whatever.
It's still a good car.
Sure.
You know, the Mustang styling cues on the Mach E, they look good.
The horse and the grill, the the tri bar taillights.
These are things that look good.
I think no matter where you're going to put them, they're good looking cues.
But just because it's, you know, I don't want to get too many people at Ford too mad at me.
They've been very good to me.
But my personal opinion is that they're very different vehicles.
I think I agree.
Yeah, totally agree.
Do you guys have any more questions for Robert before I ask him his wrap up?
We're not.
Yeah, go for it, Tim.
So in researching your book, I'm sure you did a lot of book research and things like that.
But did you, you know, have to do any like physical research
or going down to, you know, various auto museums?
Oh, oh, yeah, I'm sure, yeah, like that.
Yeah.
Shoot, I went to the Henry Ford and Greenfield Village.
I went to the Museum of American Speed, which is run by Speedway Motors.
Great place, by the way.
Ben to the Mustang Museum of America, the Halderman Barn Museum, even made it down into Sarasota,
Florida, to some museums there and everything.
A lot of lot of firsthand hands on stuff like that.
And what was really neat at one point was because I was writing for the Ford Performance website.
As you mentioned in my bio at the beginning, John Clore asked me, said,
you live by the Lincoln Highway, don't you?
I said, yeah, the old brick section.
He says, could you do a piece on the history of that?
Because it was our nation's first transcontinental interstate highway.
And I said, yeah, I think that's a great idea.
So for photography to accompany that article, I brought in not only our local Model T club,
but our local Mustang club.
And we at one point were driving a Model T, a 65 Mustang hardtop.
My own personal King Cobra, T-top that I've got, and then a 2016 GT350 down the road,
taking photographs of kind of all these different generations together.
And the firsthand experience that you get driving each of those cars down 110 year old brick road,
you can't get that out of the textbook.
It blew my mind driving both the 65 and the 78 with their solid stick axles down that brick road,
was enough to rattle your fillings loose.
But the GT350, of course, with its independent suspension and the magnetic adjustable shocks
and everything, was a delight.
And so was the Model T with its great big leaf springs at all the corners.
It just kind of moved the way it needed to.
And we just glide it over the bricks.
It was amazing.
It was hilarious.
How did we screw it up in between 100 years ago and the new one that they didn't ride as good as the antique?
It was awesome.
It was a fun experience.
That's great.
Yeah.
All right.
Time for our weird questions.
I'm tempted to throw two of them at you, Robert.
Yeah.
What's the best type of cheese?
Cheddar, the sharper, the better.
Yeah, 100 percent.
Yep.
All right.
And the last question, if you were arrested with no explanation,
what would your friends and family assume you had done?
Oh, Lord, probably, probably had my car impounded.
In fact, no, not my car impounded.
They would assume I was jailed because I had had my wife's car impounded.
And this is a great way to bring this up.
I've been wanting to say this since the beginning.
Misty, we are a house divided.
My wife was raised in a GM family, too.
She has a 67 Camaro that her uncle ordered brand new.
Her parents went on their first date in it.
She might not exist if he'd shown up in some other brand.
And she has a 2007 Lingenfelter Corvette, supercharged,
methanol injected the whole bit.
It's a monster.
I'm a Ford guy through and through.
But even I admit that sucker is scary fast.
And that's why they would assume I'm in jail.
Well, you were talking about, you know, when they,
when the Mustang original came out, that it was, you know, it was, it was cheap
and it was fun and, you know, and Dave, of course, had to make a remark
because he knows that having interviewed two of the founding designers
of the MX five, that was the whole, you know, philosophy behind the MX five as well.
You know, it was fun.
Yeah.
And, you know, I'm the person that absolutely refused to take an airplane
and a train to Odense Denemark because I could drive it on the autobahn in June.
You know, it's like 800 kilometers.
And I was like, let's do it.
She pretty, she pretty and fun.
That could be some of our nicknames.
Like I could be cheap.
Misty could be pretty and Dave could be fun or something like that.
Yeah.
Well, like I told Dave, I'm two out of the three.
I am never cheap.
Those are just those are just so.
We've seen you're only 80.
That's it.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, you know.
All right, Robert, thank you.
We know you're easy.
Thank Robert.
Thank you.
Thank you, Robert.
I'm trying to say I'm trying to thank our guest, Misty.
I love you.
Robert, love you.
Robert, the book is called Mustang Unbridled.
You can get it on Amazon, but we prefer that you go to the quarter website
and get it from a quarter publishing.
Just go to quarter.com and search for Mustang Unbridled.
You can buy it online there.
It is, like I said, the most comprehensive book about any single
car brand I've ever seen, and it is a must for any, not only Mustang fan.
But I think if you're in a general sense, just into the automotive world
and want to get a glimpse behind what the back, you know,
the backroom conversations might have a look like, you should read this book.
It's really good.
Robert, thank you very much for being our guest today.
I'm glad we connected and I'm very grateful for your time on this Saturday
to have this interview with us.
Thank you.
I appreciate you having me on.
Thank you so much.
Please stick around as we answer our trivia question
and enjoy the rest of the show.
We haven't got too much more time left, but I, you know, you don't have to,
you don't have to bolt.
Yeah, I do want to actually make a confession.
Robert, your passion and just the, I mean, I will probably actually
now buy this book and read it just because, just because, you know,
like I said, I am, I mean, I have a definite almost genetic dislike afford,
you know, but I honestly was worried about that as we got ready for this thing.
I'm like, I'm like, is Misty going to kill this guy or what?
No, he's family.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
I mean, I might, you know, push him out from the river, you know,
because the river's just right across the street over here, you know,
but I mean, I won't kill him, he's family.
Let's do a, let's just a quick check in with the rest of us,
since it's been a while since we've done a recording.
What automotive news can we, can we talk about or anything going on?
Misty, I know you had something to, to update us on.
Yeah, we do have, you know, a bit of sad news is everybody may or may not know.
It's getting a lot of attention.
The Nurburgring races this weekend is getting a lot of attention because Max
Verstappen is participating.
And unfortunately, during the race on Saturday, there was a very serious
multi-car crash during the Nurburgring Langstrecken series.
On Saturday, it involved seven cars.
And unfortunately, one of the drivers did pass away from his injuries.
Juha Mitenen, and who was driving for the BMW team.
So our sincere condolences to his family and loved ones, you know, and just a reminder that,
you know, cars are amazing, cars are wonderful, and cars can still be very, very dangerous to us.
So treat them with the respect that they, you know, do deserve and.
Misty, did they, did they release a cause for the crash crash?
They did not say.
It was, all they said was that during the first race of the ADAC 24-hour Nurburgring qualifiers,
on the 18th of April, 2026, a serious accident involving seven competitors occurred in the
early stages of the race.
Following the collision between several vehicles, race control immediately halted the
race to allow for extensive recovery and rescue operations.
And even with the immediate arrival of emergency services, they were unable to
reanimate the driver involved.
And the race was red flagged and suspended.
So yeah, I haven't seen any video released of it or anything like that.
And, you know, usually when you have an accident of any magnitude, you know, first you go full
course caution, then there's a safety car, then it's a red flag, but they went immediately to
the red flag. So it was clear from the beginning that there was a very serious accident.
Then it was very serious.
So, you know, I will say that over the years that I've been a fan of racing, and I, I mean,
I grew up down the road from Bill Elliott, you know, while Bill from Dawsonville, I'm from Georgia.
I'm the only person in the room from Georgia, even though everybody else but you, Robert,
faced in Georgia, you know, and I'm huge into Formula One, Porsche Super Cup.
God, I love Porsche bumper cars. It's amazing.
You know, but I will say that, you know, I have, you know, as safety gets better,
you know, incidences like this decrease, thankfully, you know, so it's more of a shock,
I think now that it was 15, 20 years ago, you know, but it's, it's, it's still absolutely
heartbreaking. Yeah, totally. Ben, what's going on with you these days? We can a quick update?
Well, not a whole lot really, you know, I'll just roll along enjoying life.
How's your Lotus doing?
Well, that's the thing, not really doing much anything right now. There's no major projects
going on with the car. It's been just comfortably drivable, about to be kind of in the summer
parked season because it's a miserable sweatbox to drive in warm weather. But other than that,
it's doing great. Yeah, you just need to toughen up.
No, it is really a miserable sweatbox to drive in warm weather.
Have you not heard of 260 AC?
Doesn't work very well. The car is actually so aerodynamic that I can drop the windows at
80 miles an hour without messing up my hair. So not a lot of air is coming in through them.
Valid point? Valid point? Tim, I think actually you've, you've named the episode. This episode,
cheap, pretty and fun or miserable sweatbox?
I think we go with the former. Tim, are you at the midi, Tim? No, the midi is from our date of
recording. The midi is next weekend at Rotolana and HSR Historic Sports Car Race. I'll be working
time and scoring for that event. Robert, are you familiar with the midi? No, I'm not. Tim,
you want to tell them? So it's a, it was like the very first race organized by what has become HSR,
which is actually now a subsidiary of IMSA. So it's all cars that are, you know, historic
in the, that they're all at least five years old from when they began as racing cars. So we have
cars that, going back to the 1940s, a couple of years ago at our historic 24 hours of Daytona
race, we actually had someone who did, made a replica of the Cadillac Le monstra. Yeah.
Car, yeah. And yes, we have plenty of people who show up in, you know, classic muscle cars of
Mustangs, Camaros, even there's one guy out there with a Ford Falcon race car who
drives that car very impressively, I would say. Basically, you'll see retired race cars that
run the gamut from local club MGs to old formula ones, and it's a blast. Yeah. Yeah. I will admit
the previous to riding unbridled and Mustang unbridled, I really didn't follow motorsports,
particularly closely myself. I would have just summed it up in my own mind as well. They started
out fast and they got faster. Right. I would have dismissed it at that, but I knew that a lot of
people that are Mustang fans are big into the motorsports. And so I wanted to include those.
Every generation's chapter always builds to an actual subsection of the chapter all about the
racing exploits of the era, which I ended up finding incredibly fascinating. And along the way,
my son, my 1112, now your old son, got into Formula One racing, a huge fan, particularly
Charles Leclerc over at Ferrari. And now he's started karting competitively, which is why I
was out at Motorsport Park Hastings there for the GTD was actually because I'm out there watching my
kid karting the next day. He's doing really good to him. I'm pretty proud of him. I hope he makes
it that fun. That's great. So yeah, Tim, we are way over time. Tim, how about we do the trivia and
wrap the episode? Okay. All right. As a reminder, the question it was and is, when did the Porsche
911 stop using an air cooled engine? Was it 1989, 1994, 1997, or D, you can actually still order
a 911 with an air cooled engine. And we'll go ladies first, Misty, what is your best choice?
You're picking me for ladies first. I would have thought you would have gone with Dave.
So would I. Yeah, so there you go. I'm going to say it being Porsche. I'm going to say that
money is no object. And if you want one today, you can still have one. Okay. Ben? 1997. Okay.
Mickey? I'm going to say 1989 just because Ben took my response, which was 1997.
Sure. And we'll, Robert, I'm going to save you to last because you are a former Porsche employee.
So Dave, we'll go ladies second to last.
You know, this is one of those questions when all else fails, I know I've no freaking clue.
Go with Ben. Okay. Robert, what is your educated answer?
My educated answer is I joined Porsche in 1999, just after they sold the last of the air cooled
1998 Porsche 911 Carrera type 993. Wow. Associated versions. Okay. Yes. And that is correct.
Yeah. Wow. Okay. That was an excellent question, Tim.
I appreciate it. I'm here all week. Thank you.
Robert, again, thank you for being our guest today from our listeners. Please check out the
book Mustang Unbridled. Get it from Quarto.com. You won't regret it. And to our listeners,
thank you for joining us again. We're glad to be back on mic. Hope to be bringing you more
interviews for this 2026 season of the thing about cars. Please stay in touch with us via
our LinkedIn page. That's the easiest way to get in touch with us. More reliable even
than our current website. So we would love to hear your suggestions and ideas for future guests
and stuff we might do with the show. In the meantime, please everybody out there, stay safe,
and we will see you guys on the road. Bye, everybody. See ya. Bye, y'all.
Thank you for listening. This has been the thing about cars. We'll see you on the road.
About this episode
Robert Kennedy, author of Mustang Unbridled, dives deep into seven generations of Mustang history—how the 1962 concept and 1963 show car mythology fed into the 1964 debut, and why the Mustang name didn’t connect as directly as people assume. He shares research methods, including one-on-one interviews with key engineers, and surprising finds like rare Mustang variants and the story behind a Ford leak that shaped the Probe narrative. The crew debates V8 vs turbo/hybrid futures and reacts to the Mach-E carrying the Mustang badge. A trivia question confirms Porsche’s last air-cooled 911s ended with the 993 (1998).
The Thing About Cars hosts Robert M. Kennedy, a lifelong Mustang enthusiast and author of the comprehensive automotive history Mustang Unbridled. The conversation covers Mustang history from its 1962 concept origins through the modern S650 generation, Kennedy's research methodology, surprising discoveries during writing, and his perspective on the Mustang's evolution and future.
We welcome your support via Patreon and your questions and feedback via our website.
