Our 5-Car Dream Garage From Broad Arrow Amelia — Carmudgeon w/ Cammisa & Derek Tam-Scott — Ep 227

Hello. Hello and welcome to this episode of The Carmichael Show, sorry, I'm out of sync.

You. Derek Tam-Scott. Me. Jason Camisa. This.

Hagerty.

Drivers. Driven by. Driven by Hagerty. Assaulted by Jason. No, that's the Hagerty Drivers Club.

Oh, all of this time I thought Hagerty Drivers Club was like a club, like a group of people.

It's a big stick. Yeah, you leave it to the side of your seat.

The way my dad always had a baseball bat because of course he's from Brooklyn.

And so he always had a baseball bat right next to the seat so he could pull it out in a road rage.

Is this where we have the accelerated announcement where it says Hagerty is not in any way condoned

road rage or beating people with clubs on the side of the road.

All right, now that that's done, this episode of The Carmichael Show is about the Emilia

upcoming, specifically the auction and the concor and the Radwood and the Florida man.

No, he's Scottish.

Oh, I just meant general Florida spectators.

Oh, yeah, those will be there.

But a lot of people did fly in so it's not just Florida people.

That would be Dario Franchitti who we're talking about, who's not a Florida man, but is a fast man.

And also, oh, I become a Ferrari douche in this episode.

You become possibly weirder than we even thought.

And we come up with dream car garages having nothing to do with anything.

Right. All that and more beyond the clap.

B plus. Thank you.

Getting better. No, you're not.

And we're back.

So you guys miss, you know, I just walked in to find you here with that sad look upon your face.

These are song lyrics.

I should have changed that stupid lock.

I should have made you leave your keys.

If I had known for just one second, you'd be back to bother me.

So go on. Now go walk out that door.

Don't turn around now because you're not welcome anymore.

Weren't you the one who tried to hurt me with your lies?

This is Diana Ross.

No, you have the rest of this show to figure that out and apologize.

Gloria Gaynor. Yes.

I love how I don't know where I was yesterday or what I did 10 minutes ago,

but I can recite the lyrics for songs I haven't heard in a long term memory.

No, it's just, I have a thing for music.

I was just in a very loud bar and I was like, is that and I don't remember.

I can't remember what song it was,

but I just heard like a cymbal, a hi-hat cymbal, and I recognize the song.

Walking Shazam. It's very weird.

And again, who are you?

Who can say?

Why is there a Dodge Manny van in the background?

You can say actually the answer to that one.

Well, it's very simple.

We didn't have any other cool cars to put here.

Other cool cars?

Yeah. You think that Vangina isn't cool?

It's got a headgear on it.

So in the background is the 2019 Dodge Grand Caravan.

That is our camera car and our crew car and our cargo car.

And it just came back from a shoot that we did that included the 01X that we talked about last week.

And we haven't a chance to pull the camera rig off of it.

So it's just sitting there looking all trade secrets right in front of your eyes.

Well, there have been photos circulated on the internet.

And by that, I mean, I probably posted a picture of it on Instagram once revealing the secrets of the Vangina.

They're all over the internet for God and everyone, for God and everyone.

You know that, right? Come on, another music thing you don't know.

That's the fucking pornhub.

Provin laughed.

Do you ever see that one where the kid, they were like a...

Obviously not.

It was like a high school like auditorium thing and they had like a band set up.

Provin saw it, he's laughing.

They had like a band set up and like, you know, they're all just kind of riffing.

And the drummer goes...

And gets expelled.

Suspended or expelled or something. It was hilarious.

And that should absolutely not have been the case.

But like the crowd went wild.

And of course, genuinely at the time, I didn't know what it was and everyone's like, come on, you know it.

I didn't have to look it up.

But once I looked it up and realized that it was the pornhub thing, it was just very...

Good save.

Anyway, this is Amelia Island week.

This is the coming weekend.

So today is Monday.

This coming weekend is the Amelia Island concor, which is driven by Hagerty.

So we should probably talk about it because...

There's also an auction, which is actually, well, is the part that I will be paying the most attention to as a person who's not attending in person.

I'll be keeping an eye on the auctions and...

I mean, some weird stuff as we discussed a couple weeks ago, some weird stuff is happening in the collector car scene.

And by collector car, I mean like rich people.

Yeah, there was a couple of substantial sales in the United States.

And then surprisingly in Europe, I don't think we talked about what happened in Europe.

But the outcomes in Europe mirrored those in the United States, which is not historically or traditionally like usually not the case.

Like maybe broad trends will match, but the fact that the market was so superheated in Europe as well as demonstrated by all the Paris auctions during RetroMobile

showed that it's not a localized phenomenon, because sometimes economic phenomena are sort of isolated to one particular market or region.

Well, in the case of the Ferrari collection that we talked about here in the US, those were all one collection from a gentleman collector had passed away

and all the cars were mostly yellow and pretty bold colors and whatever.

And the question was, were those auction results a result of the quality of the collector, the collection to whom all of those cars belonged?

Or is it actually a market trend that was stick?

Yeah, and the answer was kind of a little bit of both because there was a GTO that sold for four million dollars and then a GTO really is more worth like two million dollars.

But they used to be 750, so the market has still more than doubled for those cars, but it's gotten to two million dollars, not four million dollars.

So there was a 100% premium for the extraordinary spec and low mileage and provenance of the Bachman GTO.

But then there was three or four other GTOs that transacted during the same week or so period that showed that as an example that those cars, you know,

and other ENZOs sold for a mere 11 or 10 or nine million dollars instead.

To sold tremendously more valuable than they had been.

Yes, because ENZOs used to be five million dollars and by used to be I mean like four months ago.

That's so crazy. So ultimately what happened was this was a spark, you know, it was a sort of seismic spark.

Yeah, the shift had been happening quietly and privately, but there were no public auction results to demonstrate the magnitude of the shift that had occurred until January of this year.

So the people who had been following closely, well, that's not true.

The people who had been following closely expected that car, you know, the yellow car to go for maybe 10 million dollars.

And the fact that it went for 17 was like unfathomable.

But then an orange one, you know, sold for 11.

And, you know, so the normal ENZOs orange, of course, being a one off.

So that's far from normal.

But like a red ENZO sold in Paris for sort of nine-ish or I can't remember what it was, but sort of that's where the market seems to lie now for an ENZO.

That's not a one off configuration with under a thousand miles.

Question about ENZO, neither of us have driven one.

That's correct. Weird.

I've driven an MC 12. You probably have also.

Same car.

The precursor to revelations was spotlight.

And I did a spotlight episode on that.

MC 12 have and they are the same effect of cars in ENZO.

Have they also seen their prices jump?

Yes, but nobody knows it yet.

It's not really public yet, but there aren't any that are like really available to buy because everybody is hypothesizing it's the same car.

So it should be worth the same money, but there haven't been any public sales of MC 12s yet.

But one could rationally assume that MC 12 values, you know, and I did a historical study for some reason about the value differences between MC 12s and ENZOs.

And they have traded places in terms of what was more valuable, but they're always within a few percent of each other.

Maybe that's at most 20% at most.

So everyone's hypothesis is that MC 12 values have gone up a ton.

And there's plenty of reasons why MC 12s should be valuable.

Maybe even more so than ENZOs, but they were actually raised and quite successfully, which the ENZO wasn't.

But a lot of the maneuverings around Ferraris right now are happening because people are seeking credits for points for allocations.

And you can't get that if with a Maserati, but you can with a Ferrari.

So to explain, they're also much rarer.

MC 12s are much rarer.

To explain the whole points thing, this is a bit of a game that Ferrari plays.

Big nice here.

Ferrari does require you to own certain, well, they apply points for other Ferraris that you've bought or are going to buy or buying from them.

No, that you currently own.

So you have to currently, so basically they have some sort of hidden point system, right? I assume it's not public.

Yeah, I don't think there's like a grading rubric where you're like, if then right, they need to ultimately retain the discretion to decide who gets their cars.

And so if there's like a very clear, rational structure for assigning points, then people will be like, who owe me?

And then they don't want to be in that position.

So basically you get Brownie points, we'll call these Brownie points for owning other older Ferraris and presumably buying new Ferraris that no one else wants.

And so they say, well, if you buy one of these in certain name of Porto Sangue, a Ferrari model that doesn't sell very well, then we will allow you to bid for the opportunity to buy the SF90 or whatever.

I'm sorry. F80.

That's coming out next, which is a bit of a game.

Yes, it's a bit of a game.

So yes, the MC12 doesn't get you any points in that game because it's a Maserati and not a Ferrari.

And that's, they made 50 of them versus, you know, allegedly they made 399 or 400 Enzos.

I think the true numbers in excess of 500 cars.

But basically in order of magnitude fewer MC12s were built and they have racing provenance, like quite successful in fact.

And so you would imagine that MC12 should be worth more, but because it's not a Ferrari, they're worth approximately the same or historically have been.

And the hypothesis now is that that MC12s have gotten a lot more valuable, but none have traded publicly since the market exploded two months ago, not even two months ago, six weeks ago.

Because we're at the beginning of March right now effectively and those sales were at the middle end of January.

So inside of two months, this has all changed.

So, you know, I know of one MC12 that traded for kind of an old timing number, old timing meaning four months ago instead of four weeks ago number.

It's really wild the rate at which things unfold.

And this is a relatively new phenomenon because I think the rate of disbursement of information and allows the market to move much more quickly and for the access to information to be much greater.

And so for that reason, there's a black Enzo that Broad Arrow announced recently is going to be as part of the Emilia sale.

It's a black Enzo with a red interior.

I think there were two made in that configuration.

And because so many of those cars, not quite as much as like an F40, but the vast majority of Enzos are red.

And so a non-red Enzo, any non-red Enzo is a big deal.

Of which there were 12, I think 12 for the US.

12 for black ones.

So, I mean, it's just that's a big deal and the thing that's 450 miles.

So, you know, the price is going to look like a telephone number, I suspect, given what the market is doing.

It's a very, very spicy car.

A long distance telephone number.

It's going to be an international phone.

It's not going to be like a, you know, dial your extension, right?

Because if you or I were buying a car, it'd be like dial your extension.

Oh, it's three.

It's three.

And not three digits.

It's one digit.

One digit and the digit is three.

This is going to be like an international.

Yeah.

So that's, it's going to be a telephone number of a price.

I suspect if the, you know, all point signs point to the market continuing to be strong and for configuration like that with mileage like that.

And as part of a collection of other similarly exciting cars, there's a double blue F12 TDF.

All the special Ferraris are going crazy right now of which the F12 TDF is, you know, I think that the F12 generally is probably one of my favorite two pedal Ferraris as an experience and the TDF.

You know, scares me and any modern car that scares me, I automatically like.

Why does it scare you?

It's just a lot of power in a three-wheel drive.

It's just a, you know, it's very exciting in all the, the right, you know, old school ways.

It's not sanitized.

It's not trying to flatter you.

It's, you know, it'll do what you ask it to.

It will kill you if you ask.

I'm not driven a TDF.

I'm driven a regular F12 I adore.

Yeah.

So there's a double blue.

It's like, I think I didn't look exactly what color it is, but it looks like Azuro California or similar.

It's a light blue metallic with a blue leather interior with under a hundred miles.

So that's another thing that's, you know, the thing that drives insane outlier, like twice as much price results will be repeatability.

And so if it were another red with Nart Stripes car with 5,000 miles, it would certainly do well.

But having an unrepeatable color combination that's really tasteful and elegant coupled with low mileage like that is just going to be another insane result.

So that's going to go wacko.

There's a silver on red 918 non-Weissach with also quite low mileage that I'm sure will do well, but it's not.

That's an easier car to find another one of compared to the other two we mentioned.

There's an SP2 coming, which is red, which has like no miles on it as well.

But in the SP2, it's said in the description, this is the, we think, or they think it's the first ever public sale of an SP2.

That surprises me, but I guess I don't pay super close attention and those cars of course transact privately a lot.

But, you know, having a public on display price result is when the market at large gets sort of incontrovertible evidence about where the market has gone.

And so if you're in the industry and you hear about or are aware of confirmed sales for numbers, sometimes, you know, the results won't be so surprising when they publicly surface.

But then the rest of the world who hasn't been paying attention or isn't as well connected or whatever, we'll find out at that moment, you know, what the value is.

So, you know, that's, this is a car that wasn't originally legal in the United States for road use, but then I think they've managed to retroactively get them road legal.

Oh, really?

But they originally, they're showing display cars that are, you know, special edition performance cars that are front engine and V12 and actually aspirated with really crazy looking bodywork.

So that's quite a cool piece as well.

And what else was in there?

959 Sport.

I think there were 29, 959 Sports made and this one's got 11,000 kilometers.

So a ton of miles compared to everything else.

Well, I was just going to say the one car in this collection that seems to have covered any miles.

Yeah, but that's still 6,500 miles or something.

It's under 7,000 miles and the car is 40 and it's one of 29, 959 Sports made.

So that's equally special, if not more so.

So that's a bunch of heavy heating stuff for sure that they were late to announce.

You know, I would, of course they would prefer to announce things sooner to get marketing lift from it, but you can't always do that because the cars aren't always signed up to be sold.

We poked around on the rest of the catalog.

There's an 83 Wolfsburg edition Volkswagen Cadillac with 120 something thousand miles.

Moving on to the really heavy hitters in the sales.

Yeah, so when I went to the catalog, I sorted it by value least to most thinking that I would be most attracted to the least valuable cars.

And lo and behold, a Mark I Volkswagen was the very first thing when sorted from low to high.

Yes.

Quite a healthy estimate.

Triple white.

Yeah.

Look, it's an early bumper.

It's an early U.S. bumper car without the clipper kit on it.

It doesn't do anything for me, but if I'd be very happy if that.

So is this an exception to your rule, which we had an episode ages ago about is the facelift ever better than the original and you would put forth.

And didn't we decide that it was almost never?

Yes, we decided there were very few exceptions, I think to the.

I thought we had decided it's never better, but then like you have to look at like the E 65 seven series and that definitely got better looking.

Or the E 38.

I could go either way, but the E 90 definitely the three series.

So, but it is rare for the facelift to actually improve on the on the car.

Facelift 201 190 looked I think better.

Anything that got soccer boards.

124 looked better.

Yeah, so maybe wrong, but no.

It depends which facelift though, cause there were two facelifts on the 124.

This is the mandatory Sacco.

Yes.

This episode is sponsored by the.

There's the one exemption to this whole facelift versus non-facelift thing.

And I think it has everything to do with bumpers and not facelifts.

Because the early U.S. cars had fake U.S. bumpers and then the later ones got world bumpers.

Simming with E 30s, for example, E 30, like, you know, the prettiest ones are probably the earliest cars with a tiny Euro bumpers, which we never saw here.

And then we got the big diving board bumpers with the shocks and the whole thing on them.

And then at the end of the run, they got world bumpers and they were prettier.

The 24 did a similar progress.

But the E 24 never got the, I'm thinking E 28, E 28 never got the Euro big, big little headlights.

So the Euro stayed prettiest.

The E 28s had sevens and five and three quarters in Europe.

Not in the U.S.

But on the U.S. there were five and three quarters all around.

But the E 24 got sort of for 88 and 89 got much better integrated U.S. bumpers, which were globally used.

So I think though, in the case of the Mark 1 stuff, I, the cabriolet got a facelift to basically, you know, there was no Mark 2 Volkswagen cabriolet.

It was a Mark 1 facelift, we call it a clipper kit.

That was the body kit on it that gave it world bumpers and fender flares and side skirts and also bay littles headlights.

And I think it was a prettier design, but actually I think it was just closer to the original design intent without those big, horrible U.S. bumpers.

And so if I were looking for a cabriolet, which I'm not because I have one, it would be a late car for the bumpers.

Now with that said, this one looks beautiful, but I, and I just hope it hits the healthy 10 to 15,000.

The funny thing is that in this room, the 10 to 15,000 is nothing.

And so you can get these sort of extraordinary outlier results for the market.

Even if it's twice as much, it's still a cheap car because it's, you know, only $15,000.

This happened years ago where there's a guy that I know who does nothing but restore Volkswagen Scirocco 16 valves.

And he's got a wait list and his cars are in the high 30s.

And this is, this is many, many years ago, a wait list years long of people who are waiting for one of his cars.

It's West Coast Rockos. His name is Chris Embry.

And Chris had people lined up around the planet basically for one of his cars.

And I remember him calling me and saying, Hey, the Hagerty price guide is saying these cars, you know, and like an absolutely perfect concor condition.

Scirocco 16 valve is worth $8 and they're really worth 40.

And I can prove it. And the problem there was there was no public options.

No public sales. Thank you. Bring a trailer.

Now there have been a number of Scirocco's that have sold for numbers that were like in the fairly deep into the 30s.

Well, the worst part about this whole thing was he sold one car to someone who took it to, I think it was a Mika auction and it did terribly in the room.

It was just the wrong venue.

It's not the right place to sell a two liter car with four cylinders and front wheel drive.

Right. And I think it did like 20 K and it really pushed down the value of the other stuff for a while until people I think started to look at BAT and other with the right venue.

Well, BAT started existing and publicly selling cars like that.

Right. Interesting that. So, you know, it was nice.

Access to information. It's definitely a thing.

And, you know, oftentimes with these cars, there are certainly people who are willing to pay a big number for the car, but they need some form of social proofing.

And the public auction does that, you know, once they see oneself for that kind of number, then they're like, okay, I'm happy to spend that kind of money.

My willingness to pay was sufficient, except for I didn't feel like I felt like I was overpaying and the idea of overpaying was offensive.

But now that I have seen someone else do it, then I'm now willing to spend that kind of money and you just say, oh, that's the reality of the market now.

So it's, you know, humans are weird social creatures that rely on cues from other weird social human creatures.

So when you're doing this for the purpose of making money or preserving capital or whatever, or investment, I think you're going to be more cautious.

You know, for those of us who are just buying cars because we like them and yeah, okay, I hope they get more valuable.

So I don't lose so much money, but kind of not relevant.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So we, other things happening at the Emilia Concours, there's the honoree of the year is a Scaltsman named Dario Franki.

Oh yeah. So he'll be there. And I hope to pull his hair out or something. He's just such a nice guy.

Okay. He's cool and he's a good looking.

And your response to that is that you'd like to pull his hair out?

I just, he's got like all of his hair and he's just like, he's like really good racer and I'm just jealous.

Oh, I see. Okay.

Out of spite. I see. Okay. Right. So that's happening.

That'll happen. Tickets are available now.

On sale at Hagerty.com slash Jason's fired.

Oh, this URL is already full of other content.

Yeah. But there's a, there's a Radwood activation. There is the whole thing.

Something for everyone.

Something for everyone. Yeah. And it's Florida. So you never know what's going to happen last year.

Both meteorologically and culturally.

There will be a Florida man there.

Last year, I think the show was moved up by a day because of the weather, because the weather was going to be so violent.

So yeah, you never know what'll happen.

But we did, we were asked by Mike over there to go through and go through the broad arrow catalog and make a dream car, car garage for ourselves.

He tried to give us a price restriction. We just pulse it.

We roundly steamrolled him for that.

Yeah. If we're going to like have this fantasy collection of cars.

Well, I put a budget limit on it.

Yeah. I mean, although this was an exercise that I've played with all like with friends over the years.

I will give you 100,000 fictional dollars. You need to buy five cars. You will maintain them.

You have to drive them and you're not allowed to sell them. What are they?

And it's always a fun exercise.

Yeah, it is.

In this case, I think we're going to be.

So the number is five?

Five-ish. I mean, I had six, but I deleted one because I thought they were originally, it was three, then it was five because, but yeah.

We complained and we got a rule revision.

We got a rule revision.

A hardship.

How many? One, two, three, four, five.

Okay. Well, what's curious to me is let's both guess how many cars we will both out of the five.

Are you going to reduce yours to five?

Yeah. I'll choose five.

How many of the five we will both choose?

And I'm going to say.

I think it's going to be one or two.

I bet it's only one.

Okay. I think I know what it is.

I'm going to guess. I'm going to put forth this car.

I tried to choose stuff that you wouldn't think I would choose without telling you that.

Okay. In what order? How are we doing this?

Let's choose the one that I think we might have both chosen.

There's no other car that I chose that I think you would have potentially chosen.

So there's one.

Okay.

Okay. This is a 1969 Mercedes-Benz 300 SEL 6.3 AMG Volta Sao recreation.

I did not choose that.

Then I don't think we have any overlap.

Rote Sao meaning a red pig.

So this is a replica of the car.

A very accurate looking replica.

I mean, people often replicate these cars, this car because it's pretty distinctive and wild.

But this is the car that at the 1970, I think it was 24 hours spa touring car race.

It's a Mercedes S-Class that AMG built.

And there were a couple of racing 6.3s that were made.

And this was kind of the last one.

And this car got second overall in a 24 hour touring car race in an S-Class racing against stuff like S-Corts and BMW CSLs and Alphas and stuff like that.

So I mean, just imagine going out there in an S-Class and racing against like three series and the thing got second overall.

The car made it, this is a long aside.

Feel free to tell me to give you the faster, funnier version.

They can fast forward.

The 6.3 was born because Eric Voxenberger built it as a sort of amusement for himself.

Eric Voxenberger is an engineer at Mercedes-Benz.

There was a body shell for a 250 SE, I think that fell off the production line and it was damaged.

And so he was like, I'll have that.

And then he put the engine from a 600 limousine into it.

And then Rudy Uhlenhout, who was the head of production cars, I think at the time,

but had previously been headed motorsport at Daimler-Benz, heard it because his window was open one night after work when he was late at the office.

And he said, what the hell was that and demanded to be shown the car?

And it was this thing.

So the car was, the Mercedes was not racing at this period and they were trying to observe the not racing thing by taking the car to Macau,

very far away from Stuttgart to do a demonstration in quotes for some Hong Kong businessman,

which turned out to be a race in Macau.

And the car wanted outright against like a 911 S, I think got second place.

And so they were not racing it.

But then at the same time, Daimler-Benz had this policy where if you won as a private individual a race in a Mercedes product,

they would pay you 5,000 Deutschmarks or whatever it was.

And so they had to reluctantly pay this out to a Mercedes employee who was privately entered this car in a race in Macau,

somewhere very far away where the mothership couldn't control things.

So that was how the car made its competition debut.

They tried to actually race them like in European circuits later, but they didn't have enough tire or brake.

And so the AMG sort of took over and flared the fenders and made wheels and tires fit.

Anyway, this is a very accurate recreation of that car that won, which had been crashed like three or four weeks heavily before

and was fixed with a bunch of free labor by students in order to race.

It was like the second race, Spa was at the end of July and had been crashed the beginning of July, like three weeks earlier.

Anyway, so this thing looks like a very accurate recreation of that.

It's a six-speed manual, which the original was not, so that's quite neat.

The original wasn't automatic, right?

I think so, yeah.

I have seen interior pictures in both configurations and I'm not entirely sure when or which cars raced in what format.

Anyway, that was my first choice that I thought maybe you might have selected the same car.

No, the choice that I thought you might have selected car is a 73 Ferrari Dino 246 GTS.

In Marone?

In Marone. It's brown.

I didn't choose that car.

Why?

Because if I were to have a D, this happened to me a number of times.

There were cars that I liked, but it wasn't the configuration that I would have to choose for my dream for this version.

So I would want a coupe. I wouldn't want a GTS and that's why I didn't choose that car.

I love the brown and I would also want an earlier one with the knockoff wheels if I'm fantasizing about owning a Dino.

Well, here's my thing. If given a choice to be given a Dino or not given a Dino.

Well, I had two choices because there were two in this auction.

There are other ones, chairs and flares, which means got the Daytona seats and the fender flares with the company on the wheels.

And I don't love the way the flares look.

Yeah, they're a little bit slapped on, which is exactly what they were because they just needed to fit the bigger wheels.

So I didn't even look at the details of this.

I don't actually care because it's brown.

And it's a Dino. I mean, it's one of the, I mean, I think we've, we probably would agree top five best driving Ferraris of all time.

Yeah, I would certainly three.

That doesn't, I don't, interesting. Maybe it's up there.

It's up there. I mean, in a world where we're talking about 11 million dollar Enzos,

and I would say that the MC12 that I drove was not an 11 million dollar experience.

No, it's just not nearly as good as a Dino.

And for an estimate of 675 to 775, it's practically free.

And might I add again,

Stay tuned for more money saving tips from the Car Mudgeon show.

I mean, come on, whatever. I didn't even look at how many matching numbers.

Oh, look at this. It's beautiful. I mean, I didn't even care.

Same owners, 20 years, mechanical work, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's a brown Dino. I'm in.

I'm surprised you didn't take that. I would of course have a coupe.

I'd love an early car too. Doesn't matter.

A Dino, the wrong Dino is still better than no Dino at all.

Okay.

So that's, I have, we each of us has one car.

I would, I guess I will announce my vintage Ferrari choice,

which was the 1967 to 75 GT before in Celeste,

which is light blue metallic.

I like four cams. I think it is the, if I could have any

carbureted 12 cylinder Ferrari road car, that's the one I would choose.

Not a 365.

No. I mean, I just, I'm one over by the looks of the, the 275.

The 275 is a much sort of sexier looking race car, looking car.

I'm not tasteful enough to drive a 365 GTC. I'm sorry.

You're not tasteful enough.

Yeah. The 365 GTC and the 330 GTC are known as the connoisseurs cars or the car.

That's the vintage Ferrari you drive.

If you don't want everyone to know you have a Ferrari,

but you still want the experience of having a Ferrari.

It's the gentleman's express and this, the 275 GTB is like the playboy car.

It's the like younger, more like it's the super car.

Yeah. Car equivalent.

I mean, it's, it's still a front engine light blue Ferrari with wire wheels.

It's not actually a douchey car, but in period it was a more extraverted sporting car

that more closely resembled what Ferrari was racing.

And so that, you know, that's why a 275 GTB is worth five times as much as a

30 GTC, even though they're fairly similar mechanically.

These are cars of particular significance to me.

Before I was born, my dad had one that he paid no money for when he couldn't afford it.

He borrowed money in facts to pay for it.

And then the motor blew up and he couldn't afford to fix it.

So he parted it out.

And now the estimate on this one is $3.4 million.

So I try not to let him forget that he did that.

I think he paid like $15,000 for the car in 1970.

Something which was actually a lot of money.

Yeah. That was like new Porsche money at the time, which is why he had to borrow money.

But he was like, if I can figure out how to find these three pennies and rub them together

and borrow some money, then I can buy a 275 4 cam.

But then of course he didn't have any money to fix it when the motor blew up.

So that's the one day we'll do the mic episode.

We've talked about this for years and years here.

We were just talking about it over lunch.

But one of his famous quotes to me was just because you can buy it doesn't mean you can afford it.

That's 100%. My dad knows that well.

Yes. Well, I have a vintage Ferrari of my own that I, I another one.

Yeah. Oh, wow.

That I really don't think will be on your list.

And I probably shouldn't be on mine, but it's the yellow Testerosa.

And I just, okay. So I've driven a Testerosa.

And you stayed awake long enough to remember what it was like.

I actually almost crashed it.

And by, I almost crashed it.

I mean, I was almost crashed into it by the photographer who is following me in a seven series because he heard me floor it.

He could barely hear it. You know, roll the window down and we were in a tunnel and I, he heard the downshift and I nailed it.

And he floored the gas in his seven series was press card above mine that I had handed him to.

And he almost rear ended us because the Ferrari didn't go anywhere.

They're slow. They are, they don't make,

They're not slow. They're like five, five to 60.

With the cheater motors that, that, that Ferrari gave to the press cars, whatever.

It's as fast as a Mercedes 500e.

Really? That doesn't feel that fast.

More importantly, just they're, they're living rooms on wheels.

However, in yellow, I think it's one of the most visually stunning in any color.

But this one in yellow just is so nuts looking that I just can't help but think like I need something.

Everyone should have that shape in their life.

Yeah. And that car is from the era, you know, we always associate red with Ferraris.

But if you were to plot red incidents of redness or percentage of production, which was red through over the decades for Ferrari,

that incidence of red was quite low until the mid seventies.

And then it rapidly accelerated into the eighties when it was probably over 90% of Ferraris were read by that time.

And it remains high, but not that high any longer.

All of this is a long-winded way of saying that Testarosa, most Testarosa's are red.

And so to find a non red Testarosa, even in the sort of fairly common non red colors,

which would be like black or not, black and white and silver and yellow,

like there's just very few numbers of all of those colors because so many of those damn cars were red.

I would love to know what percentage of Testarosa's were not red.

Over 90% of Ferraris production during that era was red.

Yeah. I mean, no question about it. A TR would be, it's transformative experience over a 512.

Yes. Yes. Just absolutely night and day difference.

You've got a yellow Testarosa available.

Again, given a choice to have Testarosa or not Testarosa.

And we didn't actually say that I have to pay for the belt service every 10 years on this car.

So yeah. Yeah. And those cars.

Well, when I first started doing this in the early 2000s, a Testarosa was 40,000, 40 to 50,000 dollars.

I remember there was a black Testarosa with F40 brakes that had been retrofitted to it.

And I think we sold it for 40 grand.

And so those cars were cheap then.

And, you know, until six months ago, they were still fairly cheap.

You know, first half of the 100s, which, given the iconicness of the car, I think is pretty good value.

They are expensive to own and maintain. And they made 7,000 of them, which helps if you want to access that experience.

Which is for the record a huge number.

That's a lot of Ferraris. Yes. Sorry. Didn't provide that context. That's a lot of Ferraris.

There were 4,000 Dinos made. There were 1,400 Daytonas made.

There were 352.75 GTB4s made for some comparison of Ferraris.

That's 600, 330 GTCs.

So that is a, they're still pretty good value, but they've gotten expensive in the last six months or 12 months.

And are starting to, especially for non red ones, there's a big price delta because there were so many red Testarosa.

Was there an F40 on this list?

There was a US F40 in the, in the catalog.

Yeah, it just occurred to me. I think I forgot. I should have done that instead, even though it was red.

I should have done that instead of the Testarosa.

Yeah. I mean, I'm, I was always choosing things on the basis of the, is this a configuration I would want to keep and not be able to sell?

Because the one of the underlying rules of this game is that you can't sell the car. You have to keep it forever.

And if it's a car where every time I look at it, I wish it were a different year or color or configuration or not a US car.

I think I would struggle with that.

Poor thing. It would be sad. You know, just, you know, if you spend all this time pining all of the minutes, entire minutes that we've thought about this.

This, this game, like, that if you were to have this car, then you would want it to be exactly the one you want.

And so on one hand, like, I think it's silly that people pay so much more for exactly the right color or whatever.

But on the other hand, if it's such a significant like milestone purchase that you've always been dreaming of, like you should get the one you truly want and not compromise or settle.

Unless you spend so much time doing that not buying thing that the car slipped out of your reach and then you own zero of them.

So return to you say.

Which is why I typically just buy whatever car shows up.

Some Dino is better than no Dino.

So, but there was a US F40 and I would want a non US F40 if I were to have one.

What's the difference?

They're aesthetically quite different. The rear structure is quite different also because of crash.

Allegedly, the US cars actually make slightly more power, but they all have cats, which the years, not all the Euro cars do.

There's a lot. There's fairly long list of differences. They all have the motor mouse seatbelts.

They have little impact strip things on the bumpers. They have a different front lip.

Under the skin, the differences are even more pronounced, I think, than externally.

But, you know, at least we got a US F40.

So you would rather have no F40.

I've still not driven one, but you'd rather have no F40 than a US F40.

It appears to be what I have done.

Yeah.

Okay.

This is going to surprise no one, but it's a Lancia B24 Spider America.

It's gray with wire wheels with a red interior. What's that?

I don't even know what that is.

It was the first V6 car ever and the first V6 Lancia.

Yes. It is a distant, distant, distant, distant.

A few moments later, distant relative of the Pentastar engine.

Very distant, but it is. It's a 60 degree V6.

Like the Pentastar.

And it is Pininfarina design. It's really a beautiful shape and they are,

have all the traditional Lancia virtues of just like incredible engineering

and this experience of interacting with them is very gratifying.

Touch and interact with mechanically and otherwise is just feels expensive.

And it's quite singular and I've always wanted to have a B24 Aurelia,

especially Spider of course.

So much money.

Actually they're coming down.

They're coming to me ever more affordable by the day estimated at 700 to 900.

These cars were almost $2 million at one point.

But like everything else from the fifties,

it's carbureted that has wire wheels and chrome bumpers.

It's becoming less interesting, not more interesting to the market based on demographic shift.

Okay. You're, we will be enjoying your oil leaking V6 Lancia while I'm enjoying my 2017.

Aston Martin, Lagonda Taroff.

Okay. Yes.

How could you not want a carbon, a carbon bodied 120 produced ever

four-door saloon with a V12?

Especially with that shape. I mean to me, it's interesting.

So when the repeat came out, I said, yes, that's attractive,

but it also looks like an overgrown DB9.

That's a little harsh.

Yeah. But I mean, it's like it, the car does the thing that the Panamera does, which I don't love.

It's, it's trying to be shaped like a sports car while having four doors.

And to me, that's not that convincing.

It's just like SUVs that are like of the Porsche Cayenne variety,

where it's like you are trying to put the clothing or it looks like it's an SUV that ate a 911.

And now the 911 or no, 911 that ate SUV.

And so there's 911 like language, design language on the outside of something that is not shaped like a 911.

And that never quite works for me.

And I never find it convincing.

And this is, you know, the antithesis of this would be a G or a forerunner where it's like,

I'm owning the fact that I'm an SUV.

And so for me, the Taroff is much more successful analogously because it's owning the fact that it's a sedan by being a three box shape.

Instead of trying to, it's like a, it's like someone who's too old, who's wearing younger person clothes and has had obvious plastic surgery,

where it's just like, why don't you lean into your age and sort of dress and behave in an age appropriate fashion.

You're 94 and you look like you're, you know, in your 30s.

Yeah, I know. So I'm a Porsche Cayenne or, or, or a frickin Panamera or repeat.

I don't actually think the Taroff is better looking than repeat.

I don't think it is objectively better looking, but I think it is more conceptually honest and owns what it is.

And there's something sort of honest about that as opposed to masquerading or pretending to be something that it's not.

And so I really like the Taroff for that.

And I'm sad that it wasn't officially available in the United States and that it was a sort of isolated incident rather than like a broader signal of a philosophical change about,

that design approach at Aston Martin around four door cars.

Okay. So I think those cars are super cool.

I don't, I didn't choose it cause I wouldn't own it, but I really like it.

And of course I like that it's aware of the past, anything that is aware of its heritage.

I really like, I mean, cause that car to me is very obviously a reference to the William Towns design for the original Lagonda from the late 70s.

So I'm a sucker for that as well.

Totally fuck.

Yeah.

I love that car.

Yeah. That's things pretty dang cool.

Okay. Your next one.

This one I sort of dropped in as a sort of gag almost.

Well, it's, it's a modern Porsche.

How is that a gag that's so on brand?

Because I wouldn't actually own this, but I thought this, I thought.

Don't tell me that fucking sport classic.

No, honorable mention because of the configuration.

It is a Porsche, it's a 997.2 Porsche GT3 RS.

And for me, I called it out cause it doesn't have the graphics package.

It's just like super understated.

And to me, yeah.

I didn't even notice in the catalog.

Okay. Too understated, I guess.

Silver painted wheels, no stripes or graphics on it or anything like that.

It's just like very under the radar, very classic, very tasteful.

And it is, you know, the, what is the best generation of liquid cooled 911?

It's the 997.

And what is the best variant of that?

It's the GT3 RS.

Yeah. It's not a four liter, but I don't think I wouldn't,

if those cars cost what career GTs cost, it's not worth it to me.

So I enjoyed this car for it's the uniqueness.

Second, what?

You'd rather have a CGT over an RS four liter.

Leave this building right now.

They shouldn't cost the same.

I give you a big pile of money that buys one or the other.

Which one are you buying?

Think very clearly, because I will bludgeon you with this car.

My kid, the CGT is pretty special.

It's very special intellectually, but experientially,

I would rather drive the GT3.

As long as we're on the same page.

I would rather drive the GT3.

And look at.

Yeah.

Listen to the career GT.

I think it's not from the inside though.

They don't sound good on the inside.

You just have to take the roof off.

Take the roof off and you drive to town.

Anyway, so this is the thing where I chose a car based on a spec,

rather than because it's a car.

Like I would rather have an F40 than a GT3 RS 997.

But the F40 was a US car and this GT3 is just like,

I think one of the coolest specs you could possibly have

without the stripes with the silver wheels.

And so I wanted to acknowledge that and give it credit for that.

Okay.

I can't really argue with that, but I can say with that same money,

I would be buying a 2006 Ford GT heritage edition.

Heritage.

So that's a light blue one. Yes.

It's the Gulf of everyone.

When I first sort of thought about doing the revelations episode on it,

I found out there was one locally with a heritage and one with it was white.

And I said, I absolutely want the white one.

And then I saw the blue and orange one in person.

And to this day, I think it's the most spectacular looking car

we've ever had in the studio.

I just couldn't stop staring at it.

And Anthony Esposito like went on a search to find one that he could afford,

which there are none under $50,000, it turns out.

Yeah. No, we were just both just couldn't stop drooling.

And I think it's just a really neat.

First of all, it's a nice experience to drive.

They're great to drive, but it's just a new throwback.

Every part of that car feels special.

Nothing feels off the shelf Ford anything.

Except for the key fob, which is shared with an F 350 and every other Ford product.

Or a Focus at that point.

Yeah. My first job, I spent a fair amount of time driving around in an F 350 diesel,

which was a fun cosplay, but the result of that is the first time I drove a Ford GT.

I was like, you've got to be kidding me when I've picked up the key.

And please tell me after you drove it, you're like, okay,

you can kid me all you want with the key, but the car is.

Oh, yes. Absolutely.

I mean, I think as a piece of industrial design and experientially, it is really up there.

My ideal configuration for Ford GT would have to be a no stripe car that's not red.

I like most of them have stripes and most of the highest,

I think incidents of configuration was red with white stripes.

And I would want a non red one without any stripes on it personally.

And I wouldn't want yellow either.

White just can be white. No stripes.

I'd be happy with that, but this heritage I would have to have.

And they are worth quite a bit more of the heritage ones.

It's good to know. I did not know that.

I mean, this is what I estimate under $650 to 800.

Wow, that is a lot of money for a Ford.

But wait till you find out about the GT 40.

There's an accident.

No, no, no. You said that's a lot of money for a Ford.

I said GT 40s are quite a bit more money than that.

One, two, three, four.

We've done four each. Is that right?

Okay.

Yeah, I have a last one and I may have to change that.

Oh, late breaking change.

You could have honorable mention.

Okay. Well, so the honorable mention would be,

what was my fifth choice?

Because I forgot about the F40. I'm going to take the F40.

Because you can't not, can't not have an F40.

But this was, it's a 76 Cadillac Eldorado.

I held this up as a joke.

I didn't think you were actually going to choose it.

I want a big old Mac Daddy Caddy.

I want some big American.

You're getting an Eldorado Broam.

No, I want a convertible.

I mean, could you just imagine how hilarious it was?

Okay. So here's the problem.

It's a 76, which means we'd have to smog it.

It would be a disaster.

No, that's perfect. Oh, canary yellow, like come on.

But like white, the problem is you get to the like the 76-ness of it all,

which is the square headlights and the big bumpers.

And it's just not the best example of an idiotic American boat.

But it does, I think this one does, yeah, it does have the 500.

I kind of want to do with 500 cubic inches.

All of 200 horsepower to the front wheels.

Those are front wheel drive.

Yeah, it's totally fine. Do you know what front wheel drive cars do?

Burnouts.

Great. Burnouts, especially with a good e-brake

and a lot of weight distribution in the back.

So you can just pull on the e-brake.

Isn't there a lot of weight in the front

because it's got 500 cubic inches of motor?

500 cubic inches doesn't actually necessarily weigh any more than 350 does.

Yeah, it depends on the external dimensions of the motor.

Yes, but it's not going to be light in the front.

Oh, it's not going to be light anywhere.

And I'm sure it doesn't actually move under its own power,

but it will suck in an inordinate amount of fuel down while not moving

and delivering a very few number of horsepower.

Possibly not even multiple horsepower.

But this car is 1,959 miles.

And I bet you in those 1,959 miles,

it has used more gas than a Prius does in 100,000.

And I'm here for that.

But it's now just honorable mention

because I have a red F40 that's a U.S. car in my garage.

Okay.

My honorable mention, since we're...

I'll lead with that and then I'll choose my final choice,

is the 1967 Datsun 2000 Roadster.

That was my actual fifth choice before you showed me the Cadillac.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

What a sweetheart of a little car those things are.

Yeah.

And to me, that's kind of the Holy Grail because it's a 67.

So you get the early dash because the late dash is really,

really just an offensive abomination for the eyes.

Or said differently, not quite as lovely as the early metal dash was.

Or safer when you hit it with your forehead because it's entirely just a...

You just don't wear seatbelts or you're thrown clear of the wreckage.

So it's a 67.

So that's cool.

Last year of the early dash, I believe maybe a 68.

In either case, it's an early dash car and it's a two-liter.

And I've never driven one of these, but I've heard they're wonderful from

both you and Randy Popst.

Yeah, we were just talking about them last week.

Talk about how wonderful they are as an experience.

Randy said it has the best induction noise of any car he's ever heard ever,

but Randy has a Datsun 510 fetish and sort of Nissan fetish.

I remember it being a 60s Miata, like just an absolute joy to drive.

I don't remember the induction noise.

So I would be really keen to have that because to get a two-liter,

because they made him the 1600, 1800 and two-liters,

but an early one with early dash, like that's the magical formula.

And they were really affordable.

So when I drove mine, the one that I drove belonged to a friend of mine

and he wasn't yet ready to sell.

And I think when he did, it was like 20,000 bucks.

And this car was perfect.

You get a late dash car with the wrong, the not two-liter

and they're still fairly reasonable, but this car is estimated at 75 to 95.

I'm sure it's a very high caliber example,

but also its uniqueness as a early dash two-liters is obviously pretty special.

So for someone who needs the one, the right one, that's kind of it.

My actual last choice or final choice, but not last,

is the 1953 Siada 208 S Spider.

I know what that is.

Oh, that's so you.

They made 37 of these cars.

It is mechanically under the skin of Fiat Autovou.

It's a two-liter V8.

They make wonderful noises.

They are like jewelry, like in their sort of detailing.

They are so achingly pretty and a real pleasure to drive.

It's just magic.

And they come up very rarely because they only made 37 of them.

They're a little bit obscure, which is right up my alley,

but it's a pretty great event car too.

You can use it for any event that you would ever want to take it on.

Especially a roll over because, you know, it has.

I wouldn't.

You would.

I wouldn't care. I would be dead.

Problem solved.

Anyway, that was my, my, the final selection for me would be the 28S.

I'll race you on the F40.

I've still never driven one.

I can't believe I've chose it.

Without, without knowing how it drives, you'll hate it.

It's turbo charged.

I didn't hate the 288 GTO.

And it should be similar.

If there was a 288, there would have been on the list,

which is really upsetting that I have three, four hours on the list.

Because you know I'm not.

You're a super car douche.

I am not.

You are too. You just demonstrated it.

This was a fantasy.

I fantasize about being a super car douche.

I can't.

Because you can't afford a super car douche fleet.

And it's 76 Cadillac, McDaddy, 500 cubic inch, 12 horse power.

I don't know all over the map.

Look, I've chose two American cars.

Which part of me?

Yeah. And three Italian.

And one British. Is that one of us?

I don't know. I can't even remember.

And by the way, the Dino's on a furry.

Right. That's what they tell me.

That's what the title says.

That's exactly it.

Right. Well, I look forward to seeing what these all do

at the broader auction at the Emilia Concourt.

Yeah. That Black Enzo should do some numbers.

Telephone numbers.

Telephone numbers. Yeah.

Well, have a good time. I will not be attending.

I'm not decided whether I'm going or not.

Oh, you might go or not.

Maybe you may or may not go.

Last second. You know, I'll just hop on the jet.

D737?

Yeah. If it's Delta probably.

Unless it's United in which case it'll be something else.

It depends which airport you're flying into.

None of this has been decided if I go.

Well, figure it out. Maybe I'll drive. I'll leave right now.

All right. Well, we'd better wrap this episode.

Okay. Should I take the Vangina with the headgear on it?

Yeah. I think it's probably reasonably reliable

unless you have a transmission failure.

25,000 miles so far that we've put on that van.

And none of it has been nice.

Although I just learned it from my nephew,

who's a mechanic that the 2016 and later cars have plastic

oil cooler housing.

And I was like, wait, what?

The Pentastar has an oil cooler.

He's like, yeah, it's below the intake.

It's a nightmare and he showed me pictures of it.

So now I have to go check to see if it's got,

if it's replaced or not.

This is one more thing to worry about.

On your road trip to Florida,

which you're leaving on right now.

Well, okay. Thank you for joining us for this episode

of the Carmadan Show. Jason has to go.

Our 5-Car Dream Garage From Broad Arrow Amelia — Carmudgeon w/ Cammisa & Derek Tam-Scott — Ep 227

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