Peugeot 205 Rallye - A Better MK1 Volkswagen GTI? — The Carmudgeon Show w/ Cammisa & Derek Tam-Scott — Ep 218

I think we start with Christmas songs. I don't think that at all. No, nothing. You really don't like the weather outside is fresh. Yes, it's freezing. Yeah, it is somewhere else. But not here, yeah, I mean, it's like a negative six in the upper Midwest. Yeah, no, I was on the phone complaining the other day with all my aggregate co-workers and I was like, it's so cold here and they're like, yeah, it's 19 degrees and we just got a foot of snow. And I'm like, yeah, but it's cold or here because there is no cold like there is.

And San Francisco, and I stand by that. Yeah, it's exceptional. It is or sure has been exceptionally cold, which means it's the holiday season. Yes, of the car margin show. That's right. Presented by Haggerty. Driven by Haggerty, insured by Haggerty and produced by Haggerty, new paid for by Haggerty is sponsored by Hagger. So it's presented by Jason Camisa and Derek Tam, Hyphen Scott, in this episode, we will discuss

hot hatchery in general terms, farting cats, cats that fart, and hot hatchery in specific terms, specifically the Pujot 205 rally, which is here with us in the studio, and is small enough to fit under someone's Christmas tree, should they desire? It might actually fit on this table. Yeah, maybe light enough to not crack the table on half, too. Yeah, let's find out. All right, we'll do that after the clap. Yeah, okay.

Wow. Merry Christmas to you. Oh, shit. You guys he's practicing, I think.

What is in that cup? Christmas. It's Christmas. Welcome to the Christmas episode. It's not actually Christmas episode. Not at all. I'm. Yes, it is because I'm wearing my naughty. My naughty center. I forgot the Christmas tree this year.

Normally, there's a Christmas tree, but I did bring the Volkswagen Christmas lights because these easy to find. I have no idea. I've never seen them anywhere. A friend of mine gave them to me many, many years ago. And every year, I have nowhere to put them. And so they make a appearance on the carmage and show.

Volkswagen themed Christmas lights should have a Volkswagen themed Christmas tree in my garage, but then the BMW will piss on the floor and then the very old break and very normally piss on the floor anyway.

So this is not a Volkswagen themed episode. However, despite the it is just mistakes. Oh, is it all we're going to make it all about a Volkswagen? Well, you have a hot hatch in the background. And I am a fan of one particular hot hatch. This does say naughty, right?

Because on the other side, it says nice. And we can't have that. No, you had it correctly oriented for for notiness maximization.

Nautiness maximization.

You have brought an old at you. And that's what we're just telling me chat GPT and friends. Oh, yeah, you would pronounce that as shout JPT, which in French translate would

say sounds like cat. I farted. So it's peculiar if you listen to if you're a francophone and you listen to French TV and they're saying this because they just keep saying cat.

I farted over and over again, the newscasters, but I will never cease to be an 11 year old in my sense of humor. I find that funny.

Anyway, we brought a French car. That is a bourgeau. Do Android and five.

Just like a rally. Yes. You can't say rally. Rally Rally. One of my favorite things about bourgeau is that in Spain, apparently, they pronounce it pale, because they pronounce things phonetically in Spanish.

So that's a terrible word. Pale, pale, pale. I mean, I don't speak Spanish, but I do have a couple of favorite Spanish words. One is the word for ENT.

Do you know this? Have we talked about it? I'm familiar with this. I don't know if you've done it on Carmage and before.

Oto Rino La Languola go. That's a mouthful. I can say it once and then I tongue-puth and I can't say anything.

Anyway, yes. We should bring a Spanish car here. A seat set. Or a pegaso.

It also would be worth telling the story of I think you should do that. First let's find one. Talk about pale haute.

Right. So the 205, you know what I meant to look? I meant to ask the farting cat what how big that is compared to a Mark 1 rabbit, because I pulled up, saw that thing parked outside and I'm like, oh my God, it's a 5-8 scale bourgeau 205. I don't think I realized how small it was.

Yes, it's very little. Do you want to look it up now? I'm going to look up. Do you want to start with the sort of I think the 205 was sort of noteworthy in and of itself even the non spicy versions of it so we can start with that.

I think the thing to know like the image. I think about like 70s Pujos or earlier. What is the image of Pujo in your mind of what kind of cars they're making?

Like what kind of consumer buys a Pujo French? Yes, yes, but if you're a French consumer strike. Yes, that's all French cars though. We need to be specifically before buying Pujos. I don't actually know to be honest in its home market.

Yeah, that's a start. I would think it's a fairly premium brand. It's sort of along the lines of a BMW and it's prestige.

Yeah, but less sporting perhaps. Certainly ride quality was always Pujos thing.

Yes, and seats. Yes, and suspension travel. Yes, so it's a comfy cushy car. And that was kind of the image that Pujo had up until that point was that they weren't in any way really athletic ever.

And they were not really like modern or pushing the envelope in terms of contemporariness. It was kind of a conservative like I don't know you might say like a Volvo ask or like it's not as prestigious as Mercedes but sort of stick in the mud like Mercedes like they were so they weren't sexy.

It wasn't an innovative car and it wasn't something that a young person would aspire to own would be something that an old conservative person would buy because it was like a safe sensible durable.

You know, responsible car so bring back what I said for a short while on to Pujo 404 which I bought for no I bought on behalf of a friend who couldn't afford it and was going to be able to afford it.

And I was a bridge alone and the deal was it sat in my driveway and I had it in one of sitting there for a year until I find this. This is hold on. I'm going to ride him out.

This is Jamie Kittman who I worked with at automobile and he was like almost in tears that he couldn't afford he found the perfect 404 he couldn't afford it and like he just paid his kids last college installment his kids now like 70 years old this how long ago this was.

And I'm like how much is it fucking 73 dollars it was so cheap and I'm like Jamie if it means that much you all buy it and then when you can afford it give me the money and whatever so he ships the car to me and I had it for a year and then he was like oh just find a new home but I can't be fucked with this car.

I was going to murder him and I'm like keeping you of 30 days to get me payment and get this fucking car out of here and then it turns out I friend who had seen it and was like so in love with it that I just gave it to him for what Kittman should have paid for it which was a screaming deal and I know nothing about this car other than it was a very sort of conservative fin tailed very looked 50s more than 60s kind of a car where where did they go in the compact sort of small car market.

After 404 well I would say that it 404 wasn't really a small car in Europe for point you know small car is like 1100 cc's and they were so they the 504 sort of is which is the predecessor of the 505 was their big car they did also have the 603 and the 604

or even bigger yeah those are like five series maybe closer like even a little bigger size cars but they were sort of upright stayed conservative you know responsible adult type cars they had an image problem in other words and so the 205 when it came out there was a predecessor called the one and oh shit

one oh shit was that so much we just where I didn't know so it's one oh two or something like that and there was like a little sporty version that thing called zs and it's a cutie and it's actually pretty it's a cute little sporty thing but generally speaking they didn't have much sizzle and so the 205 was the first sort of product that pushover released that had sizzle and it came out in 1984 I think and it won car of the year it was kind of a big deal standard 205 it was a car that

young people you know would be like I'm I would aspire to this or it's a it's a high style sort of compact car that has some appeal to a portion with the pulse effectively which was not something that who show had previously offered I would say so the reason I ask about the whole lineage is so this was pro show's real first real mass market small car no they had one that one of what I think that one oh shit that one oh two I think it was okay I do have the dimensions but

okay so to put in context I mean I hope everyone listening understands how little of Mark one folks like golf is they are if if we are to trust the cat who farts there are identical in length 145.9 inches three door or five door they're the same length

are on the Volkswagen I assume the pro show's the same way yeah that's probably true 145 with 61.9 for the pro show 63.4 for the golf so that's probably why it looks so much more in the golf at the same length but it is significantly an hour an inch and a half an hour it is also 50 on height 54 1 versus 55 5 so an inch and a half shorter

the pro show actually is a longer wheelbase 95 3 versus 94 5 and the golf is slightly wider track but yeah interesting so it's roughly the same size as a golf just smaller in height and with tiny yeah absolutely tiny

so they yeah so it was a cover it was kind of coverable it was kind of like high style and and people were into it and it was something that transformed Pusho's image when the 205 emerged and one car of the year and it was you know contemporary design which is to say that it's transverse front wheel drive trans axle and sort of the format for the small cars was I think was fleshed out in the seventies really by cars like the Mark one golf at the end of the year

one golf and Pusho of sorry fiat 1 2 7 2 1 2 8 that was going to be a 1 2 8 which was also to give credit words to you basically the mini yes which came out 1959 but a lot of that wasn't it wasn't like the default

really became fault by the set by the seventies right and that was 1974 for golf yeah so this is a full decade after Mark one golf this is a fact that we mark to golf timing exactly so it was a transformative car for Pusho and it was

comfortable and it handled well and was comfortable and spacious and thoughtfully designed and all that stuff in the standard form which was you know they had came in gas and diesel and all kinds of unexciting formats

and then there were some exciting formats to the first of which was you know imaginatively named the GTI so you have so I did successfully make this whole episode about Volkswagen's I just want to point that out yes no surprises yeah so you have driven

the Pusho 205 GTI because I have not yes I drove one once belong to a wonderful fellow by the name of rich Grio maybe you know I've heard of Grio's garage doesn't have a Pusho on it yes

he had he's amazing which has a sort of more public car collection and then a warehouse full of the coolest shit and when I mean shit I mean he's got cars like a lot of old Volkswagen's and a lot of just you know things

that a lot of collectors would just look down at he's not he's just the fucking man and he had bought a yellow 1978 rabbit and it was parked next to a 91 to a 5 GTI 1.9

and it he let me take them both out and it was an interesting comparison so this is back in 2019 and so would you like to know my comments on that please as good as everyone says it is steering is dead engine sounds flat but it pulls all the way to 6800 cleanly and strongly the suspension is soft but has great body control which is very difficult to do breaks feel good shifters great visibility is wonderful driving position is perfect that's not really good

perfect dash looks nice gauges are gorgeous sunroof is huge it's a really nice little car straight out of the box and it's smaller than a rabbit said it then to and I can't imagine what a properly modified to 16 valve to a 5 and be like engine definitely needs better sound but there's not much else I'd want to change here my takeaway was after driving the look at my rabbit comments

from memory was that it was a better car than the rabbit was of course it was a decade newer but it was less fun and let me see if that's OK I hated the rabbit there's nothing there's nothing here that reminds me of my mark ones I think this is an important thing to say I'm sorry it's on this car there's nothing here nothing here that reminds me of my mark ones how far they came and then oh my God how far I took them past that this doesn't do anything particularly well

it's slow the four speed is sloppy OK that's not fair the engines punching the mid range mid range the clutch is perfect in the right is comfortable breaks on this one need work quite on the highway until about 70 and it gets very loud engine noise afterwards but still quiet in wind and road noise huge inside a beautiful example of what a car with a car with a lot of potential but not much in the soft handling department or anything else performance wise it's just an economy box with a speedo and a fuel gauge and that's it so this was a base base base rabbit I think this and this car now has a 250 horsepower

1.9 diesel in it and then he built an ABF so a crazy 16 valve for his other rabbit so but it was interesting to me that I came away thinking wow this rabbit is as a base car in comparing it to a GTI it's different you have to

have a GTI as a base car there was just nothing to love it was you know manual steering that was so slow so but the GTI was quite good yeah so the GTI stands for Grand Touring Injected

and that's the spicy one where they put more horsepower and so it was available to 1.6 GTI in the Pugeot or 1.9 GTI and those cars have I think it's like initially the 1.6 had like 105 horsepower and then I think it

have a little more later on and then the 1.9 had like 128 horsepower or something a lot remember yeah quite a bit but for a car that weighs let's see this 60 kilograms it's probably 850

kilograms maybe there's a 60 kilogram difference between this car and a GTI all right so let's call it 900 which was would be in this car is 1750 pounds oh my God which is I don't know what that is in kilos that's probably about 2.205 yeah I can have the other way around so 900 kilos just to say would be 1800 plus 180 so be 1980 so be 2000 pounds so these are no matter what they're under 2000 pounds and this one is so this one is 1750 did you weigh this I didn't know

I never believe any of these weights I don't have scales I do let's go right when we're out of here and we can put the real weight on what are you willing are you willing to sacrifice that all all of the reputation of Pugeot you can say no and then everyone I'm curious I would love to know I've actually thought about buying a set of scale it's about $1,000 for a set of scales hopefully you can find one news I would love to own one to but I do have access to them and I am going right there after this so we can if you see an insert with the car on a scale you'll know what it really is.

If that was illuminated or perhaps not if you don't then Derek just check it out and it's just afraid to allegedly this car weighs 1750 pounds for comparison your Mark ones tough to say well it's tough to it's tough comparison because minor modified in their late and whatever early Mark ones were 19 ish I mean 1850 to the heaviest GTIs were 2000 you know by the time you got to

the Shorako 60 valve which was 10 years later they were 13 years later there were 2300 but that's AC power steering power windows fully featured yeah 60 up with redisks in the whole you know all the stuff so this car is the rally which is not a type of GTI

I mean it doesn't say GTI on it anywhere okay because it's not injected I couldn't just what's a GT I guess but it's just it's known as the rally so the rally was introduced

after the GTI came out and it was intended I guess as a homologation car so that the car could rally in group A and group N in the 1300 CC category so in the GTI came as 1619 only and this car was 13 but in a higher state of tune with two gigantic

Weber carburetors webbers yeah 40s DCO ease I think they're DCO ease their side drafts and so the whole deal with this car was that they took out a bunch of content like sound proofing and like the top of the door panels

is painted and it doesn't have you know air conditioning or power windows or you know a bunch of anything power steering correct so it's really

paired down it's got a 1300 CC engine that makes I think it's the early 1.6 is made like 105 horsepower and these are like 102 horsepower

so less displacement but same power which tells you it's in a higher state of tune and so you know these have become I would say of all of the 205 variants

besides the group B homologated car that they had to make 200 of in order to race you know rally group B this is the most

valuable it's more valuable than a GTI because it's lighter and more fun allegedly and and and steel wheels are stock

they came only in white they're 13s these also had 165 tires instead of the bulky 185s of the GTIs so a little bit less grip

and critically these cars were cheaper so they sold do than GTI they sold well new because they were cheaper than

a GTI GTI weighed 60 kilograms more and cost this car was 70,000 francs and the GTI was 86,000 francs so 16,000 francs price difference so you got

something that was people ultimately kind of concluded that it was more fun because it was lighter and more

pair down and buzzier and less refined and about the same maybe even slightly better powered weight ratio for less money

and so these have become sort of iconic which is why the rally is the most collectible of the front-wheel drive

two so three-door and five-door three-door only three-door only and white only for the 205 rally

so this is like the definitive look with the stripes the racing stripes the Talbo the Talbo racing sport stripes

it's stunningly gorgeous I mean I keep I know the camera over there but I keep wanting to look at it

I love the fender flares I love the AMC Gremlin C pillar you know which is strange because without

the fender flares the back of the car always looked a bit frumpy frumpy and bulbous too much uninterrupted

surface between the wind the greenhouse and the wheel arch and you put those the fender flares on

it and that car is just like I kind of want it yeah just looking just looking at it and wherever it is

definitely a cutie you know it's obviously like an intrinsically frumpy shape which is the whole hot

hatch recipe and we are you know with this car and the GTI you know in the beginnings of hot hatchery

and that's why part of why this car is such an icon because the fun per dollar originally

and the sort of experience that it provides so yeah so of course the big question is what are

your thoughts experientially this car has stickier tires that are wider than a stock it also has

non-original motor mounts okay that explains that no I'm not going to get ahead of myself here

but I'm still all right so hold on so it's stocks suspension yes okay so all of the things that

I've heard throughout the years from mostly British motoring journalists was that the 205

shat on the GTI dynamically like if you wanted a car that handled well you bought a 205

I would say this car shits on a mark one I mean a mark one out of the box a GTI out of the box

um wow the body control like it's soft and compliant but the whole thing turns in as a whole

so I did I was able to do I wish I had brought like a camera or something with me but I was able

to do the that sort of revelations hill climb and it's just an absolute riot huge amounts of grip

I mean I did they have to be aggressive tires yeah look huge amounts of grip not so much that you can't

light up the front tires yes it does here it will it's been a lot of us uh and then it will spin

the ins and inside in the corners but not in one of those in the sort of Honda like way where you

know Honda you get an unloaded wheel start to spin and then it's almost like somebody threw an

anchor out the back they just know forward progress still pulling so it must have some sort of

mild limited slip yeah function and then in the design I don't think it's an actual

but um fucking quick up a hill um but the first thing you notice in other than it's

carbureted yes and it's so starting it's you know not gonna start and run the way some carburetors

card did not gonna carburet the ways no it's cold blooded it didn't experience it cold but it's

very cold blood is it really yeah um yeah it didn't uh it that the throttle response is so

over the top now as in yesterday that it's very difficult to take off in this car because

it your choice is idle which is 1100 rpm or much somewhere around 1000 one more or 3500 and

there's no modulating you can't hold this thing in 2000 rpm yeah so it's kind of difficult to

to get moving but um what an absolute riot once you're underway yeah really really short gear ratios

in fact I took an acceleration video right now

um I'll have to look at you know back in freeze frame it but I think I mean 60 miles an hour came

in the middle of the two thirds of the way through third gear by memory um

it is short um and it's very easy to shift it very quickly the shifter is great um yeah the throttle

response like it's so fun to blip the throttle on gear changes when you're down shifting and

rep matching it's incredible incredible throttle response yeah it is spectacular the the defining

characteristic of this engine though is the vibration yes and I immediately thought okay I thought

my two liter Volkswagen's which are very very long stroke and short rod so they're very rough

course motors of course but fiber monsters I have nothing on this thing and all I want to know is

how the hell does 1.3 liters make that much vibration I just kept thinking that I'm like is

is it a 0.2 millimeter bore and a kilometer long stroke like what the fuck um but now that you say

that it has like more aggressive like solid or polyurethane or something yes okay it's it's

metal with a little rubber insert thing yeah and it introduces another characteristic of the car

which is that it sort of feels um pretty flimsy in the sense that like the like every RPM

corresponds to a resonant frequency for some other body part of the interior and so you're like oh

at this RPM the a pillar trims vibrate at this RPM anywhere from 3200 to 5000 the

the passenger door panel or what would be the panel vibrates and the problem is that's exactly

where you are on the highway um I did do look I did a speedometer calibration and it was 3,000

RPM in top gear is 48 miles an hour yeah so you were on the highway 4,000 4,000 4,000 45

about the 5,000 I mean yeah yeah no it is a very short gear immersive experience in the cabin

it is immersive which let me say very clearly is a absolute plus like the the one nine that I drove

was characteristics this is character full oh so substantial difference in engine character yeah

that one pulled high but it never came alive this one has a remarkably flat torque

it sort of makes great power everywhere comes alive a little bit between 3,000 and 4,000 RPM but

otherwise it's just pretty linear which I don't it's not my favorite type of engine I like them

ones that get really pissed off at the top end um but it's very drivable and it sounds

it sounds good but it's so vocal in the cabin and it's just you don't actually know what it

sounds like because you just know what the interior vibration sounds like you're not you're not

hearing it as much as feeling it like you know yeah that's very definitely true but I really enjoy

the fact that as you run it through the RPM very at various points different parts of the interior

we'll start like at some point there's something between the seats that starts becoming excited by

the engine and then it transitions to some other part of the dashboard and when it was previously

the trim somewhere on your right side of the car that's a pillar or door panel or something like the

the seat on this car is a little bit loose it like rocks and I just kept I was driving along going

I bet this was fine this morning and then director of it here and a bolt backed out from the

vibration I actually looked underneath it it appears like it was designed in you can have a look

for yourself but I didn't see anything loose that would be the most French thing I've ever heard well

the throttle responses uh insane very very responsive so we have um to dance in with the seat

because it's a it's a forward back rock yeah and it does actually absorb the shock of yes of a

quick throttle application that would be the most French thing it would uh so yeah it is uh it's

more fun than a barrel of monkeys I'm interested I'm glad to hear that the character difference is so

stark compared to the GTI because of course everybody always um talks about how great the GTIs

and I've never driven a GTI I've driven two of these uh you've never driven a more fun GTI

never driven a oh Joe to a five GTI look this again it's a long time ago it's six years ago so

yeah but if you were complaining about it being sort of a little civilized and refined this car

certainly there's results that company a lot of that is probably just the engine melts right and

I don't I don't know what the gearing was like on that one nine I suspect it was cured quite a bit

longer um so something that's with a really talkative engine with you know a lot of vibration

and short gears is just gonna mute all of your other senses I will say that on the straight

away I would have I would have assumed that this is power assisted steering there's not really

much failing once you're once you have some lateral load it wakes right up um steering is great

but I could not believe how well it turned as a whole like you it's got body roll but you don't

notice it because it happens front and rear at the same time and it's not a flop over like right

it that's progressive build right and that's the big difference between this and a Volkswagen GTI

to bring it back to our Christmas lights um you know we're VW's we're soft but not particularly

well controlled roll at the front and rear happen at a different rates in different times

so you'll turn in the front will take the set and then pretty pretty quickly and then the rear

hoax over right onto the bump stops and because that's a torsion beam I don't know what's in the back

of this it didn't feel like a torsion beam um because the VW's a torsion beam once it flops over

the geometry changes and you get some steering effect from the rear so the rear tightens the line

and then you have to sort of undo your steering input and then you have the whole front and flexing

so you're constantly changing stuff this feels way more substantial from a body structure uh

standpoint and the whole car just turns as one and you're not driving around this sort of meada

ish flop that you get from a more one Volkswagen spectacular I mean I absolutely would have

loved to take a day and just beat the shit out of that car um on a back road yeah it is uh so it has

a reputation deserved and there's and it now becomes clear also why the carbureted 1.3 is worth

more than the one six and one nine's yeah I I love the I love the idea that it's just a 1.3

I love that it revs to seven grand uh it's pretty damn special for and it's happy to do it yeah

very happy to do it um I don't love this particular car as clutch catches really high

no problem but you can actually you can shift very quickly using only the top third or quarter of the

clutch travel I just smack myself on the on the hand when I when I want to do that because I

switch so often between cars that if I get used to that I'll recipe for it's a recipe before

was for just a grind on the next car so I force myself all the way in and that contradicts

what what the gas does with that yeah that crazy response yeah and I wonder if there's a weighted

I've this probably it feels like a clutch cable I didn't look to see it was hydraulic or not it does

feel like a cable so it's adjustable um but I wonder if there's a weighted tone down some of

that throttle response if there's Jason you heard it here first it's bugs no no it's not I think

what it actually means throttle opening is the is the problem yeah there's also some

distinction at the top so you have to add a little force and then as soon as you get through that

then it sort of you get a whole bunch of throttle and so I think that if you know it'd be nice to

clean and lubricate the throttle linkage to see if you get a little bit more progressive action

but I agree that you get for a very small amount of pedal travel you get a lot of throttle

activity right which is you know especially I mean it feels like it has a very light flywheel so

especially in neutral and so when you're trying or you know as you're as you're coming off I've

coming out throttle right and the one thing VW did really well and I'm going to bring

back sorry to bring this back but that's my basis for hot hatch sort of thing is they often did

the 16 valves have this a dual throttle setup so it's a very small throttle and a larger throttle

and so the first two thirds of the throttle application you're opening a very small throttle very

slowly and so you can meter out power really really well and then when you smack on it you know

anything past two thirds you're you're opening up a big throttle and that's cammed to open very

quickly because it's only opening over the course of the last two thirds or the one third of travel

and so you get this great linear sort of I guess it's probably an exponential response but the more

you press the faster the throttle response and I much prefer that to a car like this which just

is herky jerky it's difficult to be smooth yeah unless you're flat out in which yes if you're flat

out it's incredible and the that's you know the Weber experience I guess I mean the carburetors are

the same when you open the engine compartment the carburetors are basically the same size as the engine

I think they may be bigger yeah yeah so you it's very funny the first time you open the engine

compartment of one of these cars and you were like oh it's mostly carburetor yeah it's also sort of

modern car layout where the intake is on the firewall side of the engine and the exhaust I guess

the exhaust on the front I didn't even got to be it's but the intake is on the back carburetors

are on the back and then it's got this a plenum on the four runners for the four for the fourth

thirds of the carbs and then a big long tube and then a huge air filter and then a horn on front

that would have to go yeah I would have to put because the one thing is kind of missing from this

intake bar from yeah from in the car it may well have it from the front but didn't inside

and I would love to know what this thing sounds like um with the air cleaners removed

court yeah yeah I mean yeah what a it's I love when you get to meet your legend I meet your

meet your heroes in there everything you've hoped that's a lovely Christmas gift when that happens

yeah and it's almost small enough to fit under the tree I mean as I as I was driving and I kind of

thought is it time for me to own a Pugeot 205 like I it that's a compliment yeah that's a real

compliment I would I would have that together with the other cars um I think it's really special

it's really fun yeah it's wild to me that and so the the GTI initially came out in 85 or 86 and

this card didn't come out till 88 and so it's amazing to me that in the late 80s a car is

introduced that has webbers twin 40 webbers on it yeah and that was only in certain markets

you know in Germany and in Switzerland that was not gonna fly because this is when you get mandatory

catalysts uh and just generally emissions controls and so the the versions of this car that were

sold in this German and Swiss market were had 1.9 injected engines which is a big letdown

and then for some damn reason in England when they sold these cars they had a 75 horsepower

single carb something yeah so you have to get when you know you have to go non Swiss non German

non English market if you want to get a uh so that would be mostly Italian and Spanish it seems

like which means no rust at least yeah because I'm sure these cars will be very happy to rush

because they have no sound proofing or anything else but it's a pretty unrefined piece of kit

and it's amazing to me that this was the budget sporty model that was done for you know

homologation purposes so it's you know we always talk about the fun of homologation cars but

this is certainly exactly what this car did and that's part of why they're so valuable but that

a lot got you look at how narrow that a pillar is yeah that's not the kind of thing you want to roll

well there's there's so a structure on that see the massive sea pillar that maybe maybe it can't

hurt this can't leave it um that is interesting so I guess I don't didn't realize this car was

that late because when you're talking in again my timeline of our hot hot hatches is GTI but how

you're at 88 now you're at mark two 16 valve GTIs and that two liters almost the 89 was the change over

into two liter now you have a two liter that made 134 horsepower in the US um that's all I wonder

what the price difference was because the mark two was bigger than a mark one um and it was

probably a better car to drive and it was probably better looking I think most people think so

um I'd love to re go back I bet this is much more um visceral not that much more you know

this VW especially once you get to two liter 60 miles they were pretty I mean you know my cars

that they're just stock two liter 60 miles there's like a sort of paired down this to this car like

when you close the door where you're like wow there's nothing there it feels or that's the weird

thing to me it feels like an old honestly late 70s early 80s more than it feels late 80s yeah

I can't believe that well they yeah it doesn't even have full door panels like it's you're looking

at paint on the doors when you have the doors closed that's shocking that this was that late so

what years were they sold until 91 88 tonight so you could buy a carbureted 1.3 liter that in 1991

that's fucking wild that feels well French cars were sort of like that you know that was not

but in 91 you could buy a 605 or is it hold on what was the big yeah the one that was the 605

yeah the one that that was shared with a Citroën XM engine right to the PRVV6 and XM looked like

that whole generation of cars looked modern yes I guess the front end on this car styled fairly modern

it's just some of the detailing in it and I think it's the fueling yeah that is not so modern

but they were also built to a price in some sense it was cheaper to put carburetors and then

electronically controlled fuel injection especially if you're racing homologation I don't know what

that you know if if the inclusion of Weber is meant that they could use carburetion for racing

purposes this one carburet's pretty well I mean other than like you know a 2000 rpm flat foot

which you get a tiny little stumble and it goes yeah it's quite impressive it's quite happy it's

surprisingly so for something that's so over carbureted in you know in air quotes and then

so this car was replaced by the 106 rally which is also available as a rally with the same ethos

in terms of lightning and which is a car that is very nearly as light maybe it's 50 pounds heavier

and dimensionally even a hair smaller even and I've never driven one of those those are injected

not carbureted so that would probably be the biggest difference I'm guessing I've never but I

would always wanted to drive one of those and instead of costing you know these are in the United

States good ones are 30 maybe 35 thousand dollars I think you can get a 106 rally for 15 or 20 so

meaningfully less money but I'd love to try one of those out and see if it is as good they seem

to be well liked also they do but I just don't and they're cute but I don't I think if you go

yeah I mean that's 205 is the market agrees which is why this car is worth 50% more money

than a 106 rally what I'm curious about is what this cost relative to a GTI so let's ask the

cat who farce I bet I mean that probably the more appropriate comparison would be to make to

a Pujo GTI but as we've seen this the rally was meaningfully less money than the regular GTI

okay we'll do GTI to a VW GTI in say 90 91 1990 let's see what the cat farce out I don't know

who knows if it'll get right okay so original price 205 was about in the UK 205 GTI 16 in 1984

was 6245 we're slightly rising to 6645 pounds later GTIs up until 1990 were 9250 so figure 90 for

1990 figure 999500 the GTI was

6500 to 7000 I can't be I don't trust the cat that seems outrageous that this thing would have

been 15 to 20% percent more expensive I find that difficult to believe I find that also I mean that

would make this a better bargain if it was cheaper but that just doesn't seem hold on interestingly

this is where cat farce is farting out shitty information because it's calling at a mark G one GTI

in 1990 which it was not most market GTI that's weird yeah it's calling it a mark one and then

giving saying the mark one wasn't even available yeah it doesn't make sense I don't understand

what's going on but I would love to read some period reviews of this from say automotive

or you know some of the British magazines and so this car I think for me anyway just stills

down the sort of appeal of the hot hatch formula what would you characterize are the defining

ingredients for good hot hatch experience I mean the definition of the hatch part of it is you know

a reasonably upright usable city transport device that seats for people and luggage right so

and has a back that is a hatch exactly right so that's one said hits the form factor year

there in a hatch the hot part is really only performance but I you know so I think the idea of a

hot hatch is just a faster version of a traditional city car of course the things that I look

for are handling that's a little bit unsorted in the in the same way that you know

Mazda engineers made the ND floppy right you want it to be relatively soft you want it to be

playful I guess is the way yeah so a playful spicier version and I think throughout the years

Volkswagen's done a really good job on some generations better than others at at making this

but you get like a modern car wise a Hyundai

um a lost a lost and was a much much better it was a far worse car the velocity was a

shit car compared to a golf but the velocity and shit on the GTI in terms of fun yeah and so

there's you know the continuum there of like is it going to be real car was it should be a little

bit cheap and cheerful and I think cheap and cheerful wins yeah it gives it certainly more character

for me in a hot hatch I think yeah the defining characteristic is sort of this

punching above its weight in terms of performance and like if you choose the right road which of

course we have lots of around here which are these tight narrow roads where horsepower is less

important and suspension travel is more important and compactness and dimensions like that is the

ideal road for a hot hatch where the entertainment factor is so far outstrips what you would expect

and you can sort of in the right circumstances terrorize much higher performance more legitimate

sports cars uh in that context and that's just something great word yeah yeah because you just

imagine them being very serious about their performance and still somehow getting just

harried by these little potentials and a fucking hatchback is on your ass yeah and that's the

and and that's the magic of these cars you need to have the right kind of road and I think that

this concept you know the hot hatchback concept didn't kind of became mainstream United States

from a practicality standpoint but the sort of sporting hatchback thing was not something

that really ever caught on in a very serious way it was always kind of a niche thing as opposed to

being the dominant way of having jollies as a young person and that's part of the regulatory

environment because you know you could buy a Mustang as a young person here which is not a type of

car that would make sense as a young person because of the regulatory environment in Europe and also

the built environment here certainly favors it in the there rather favors a small car whether

that's in England or in France or in Italy or you know wherever there is a lot of small roads that

are I think more sinuous than the ones that are the dominant type in the United States other than

a few select areas where we do have really tight roads yeah we always have to put an ask we should

always have an asterisk at the bottom of the street uh the screen every time we're talking about

the roads here because we are the exception right this is the topography here is not the same

you know I say people all the time my my mark seven golf is too big and I I mean that it is too

big for San Francisco as a city and it's too big for a lot of the roads here um that is the right

size for a hot hatch but we this this doesn't exist in the most of the rest of the United States

correct and so it doesn't make a ton of sense you know if you live in Texas or Miami or Detroit

yeah this car is is nonsensical I think for you because you can enjoy the things that

we can't hit on our back roads here which is or the roads that I like at least um like a

came in GT4 right makes maybe more oh I don't know there's no twisty roads in some of those places

so maybe that it's something something like a came in GT4 is at least interesting in a straight line

right you should have self mostly talkative steering and you know you have a great engine and great

you know interaction between clutch throttle whatever and whatever twisty road exists near you

the one road in you that in Ann Arbor that you showed me that was the one good twisty road

that road would be perfectly fine for a came in whereas if you chose some of the roads here I think you

would be absolutely you'd be out fast in a came in because you'd be dragging the splitter everywhere

and you'd be having a much more enjoyable time and yes come I mean I talk about I think I've

talked about this 200 times in this podcast that one time where we did a drive and you were in your

GT3 touring and I was in the bitch basket and I would make it three corners and have to slow down

and wait for you every three corners yeah and that's nothing to do with your driving ability at all

because you are faster than me on those roads um tip tip I mean it's hard to tell we're always in

different cars but um although one person is leading in at the perfect exact always harder but the

the under no circumstances if you looked at anything on paper should I have ever had to wait in a

Mark 1 cabriolay for a GT3 touring it's just the reality of it is not only can my car

can your car do things you wouldn't do right the modern car limits are so high that

that the limiting factors often the drivers comfort well comfort and will to live will survive

the whole thing or not have an insurance claim but also what's comfortable in the car and you know

a little car with a lot of suspension travel is having a much easier go at it than a car that's

scraping its footer everywhere and yeah this was on Belenis Fairfax Road which is a very bumpy road

yeah I think that would be one of the you said terrorized but I think a car that is uncatchable

or how hot hatch should be uncatchable on a back road yes and I think that's one of the defining

characteristics in my mind of the ideal hot hatch yep it's part of the reason why like I wanted

a Nissan Central SER the combination of the geography so when in college at the time I lived in Florida

but I sort of lived sort of all over the east coast my dream car was a Nissan Central SER

and that was the closest we could get really to a hot hatch at the time you know this would have

been nine early 90s so with the end of Mark 2 into Mark 3 GTI Mark 3 GTI was not particularly

I mean other than the VR6 it became more serious it became more serious and once the VR6 happened

that was the defining characteristic of the car it was not so much handling um but you know

here Nissan made this 7,000 RPM or 7,500 are a big high you know high revving torquey force

cylinder um with good seats in a front with our car that actually handled well that was a hot

hatch incident form yep um and we have very few of those at this point we have very few

playful I think not a lot of playful cars you can buy now the RZ and Jerry Deanna to to a fall through a

perhaps yeah but GRZ 86 it's the one I keep looking at them going you know should I just get a

GR 86 is a daily and I just don't think I could live with that fucking Subaru engine um you know

this having nothing to do with other Subaru drivers but just you know um the flat four is me

it's good it's fine but you know most of all the good stuff you hear is fake from the engine

speakers anyway or from the uh the stereo speakers um but like god damn it if that had like

if that had the Miata's engine in it and uh it was a hatchback yeah you move over yeah that's

what I want for Christmas alas yeah alas but I could have I could totally have one of those yeah

I think they're it is it's really fun it's fun also to see them become I mean they were

valueless for such a long time and now you know for what you describe in terms of like the numbers

and the dimensions and the weight it's an expensive car you know it's like 35,000 is a lot and it

falls into this category that happens with all these hatches which is that they were bought by people

who were looking for the most performance for the dollar when they were new uh which means that

they kind of got used and abused and then they would depreciate and get sold on to somebody who

had less money who would take less good care of it and they just were not ever sort of cherished or

treasured and so the attrition was extremely high it's not like a nine o'clock Ferrari or a Mercedes

SL where you can really easily find high quality examples of them because they were cherished their

entire lives uh there will of course be some examples that weren't cherished but then by there

is a significant portion of them that have survived intact because they were you know owned by wealthy

people you can and used sparingly and as a and a special occasion car and that's not what happened to

most of these uh so they've become valuable for that reason to it's the same reason why nice

mark one and mark two gti's are similar money to this now because there are so few of them that

didn't you know get progressively decomposed by progressively less able financially able owners

but you know you okay 30,000 dollars is a lot for you know for the size and the weight or whatever

else in the display but what is the placement when you talk about a fun experience yes right and

this is a usable car it's got a back seat I did not try to sit in it but you know it's got we have

three people and um three adults what else are you do you know what do you if I think about this

and I did see a guy in a nine air cold 911 while I was driving this car I thought I'm having

four times as much fun as you do and his car probably cost three times as much as this but I don't

know what it was just some sort of squish beetle I don't know what what Portia was but like I just

think this is a really hard thing to beat it first of all it's scarcity in the US right you never

see anyone any one of these so um it's just a cool thing I think that's a tough you've got to

have the right kind of roads though I think if you all you did was go drive around places on the

highway and this thing I think you what's it like without the solid mounts in it that'd be my

question because the one nine was smooth enough to be born yeah but it's geared so short like what

there's no joy yeah it's out of its elements yeah there's no joy in driving through Illinois no

matter what you do like I'm sorry to people like when when you're spoiled yeah yeah and then they all

go drive 14 hours to go drive with the tail of the dragon it's the finest road in the world and

we had to drive 14 hours to reach it I mean when other than in Arbor and we when I was at automobile

we drove 12 hours to go do the automobile the year drive and we drove to Kentucky in Tennessee and

it was a full day on either way and there three quarters of a mile from here is a road equally

as good if not better than any of the roads that we drove 12 hours to get to so we're fucking spoiled

rotten yes perspective this would be miserable yeah it would miserable there and it works brilliantly

here because there's such good access to tight twisty roads and if you cannot dismiss one of these

cars or I think any hot hatch without driving it on a tight twisty road right or in a city right

because that would be a riot in the city yeah right that's fun remember it's it's you know

primarily a city car yeah but a hopped up version of it so yeah it should make driving around town

I'm nothing lighting up the front end and just you know torque steering from one red light to

the next yes yeah that's true yeah we're wearing all the way we're wearing yeah without that intake

and we need to maybe we'll we go to weigh it quick pull trip around the block with the intake box

yeah yeah I'm interested I think it'd be pretty great although we might not be able to hear

anything over the cacophony of various interior residents know the whole point would be the the

intake would be loud enough to make new rattles that we couldn't even hear as it was so loud

introduce yes to the core ingredient so the cars can post primarily of carburetors and rattles

yes perfection that's the French way isn't it well and that's what you get for Christmas thank you for

bringing that that is yeah my pleasure I'm happy to share it I was curious to know whether you

would like it or whether you would find it deficient compared to your mark one I love it all seconds

it's not I mean it's not a mark one it didn't make me think oh I need to sell my car but that is

out of the box and a mark one GTI out of the box has nothing on that you know you can make

anything spicy I'm sure you can make that fucking insane you know we do have a friend that had two

or five GTI and he put a 1.9 4 or 5 MI 16 motor so 1.9 killing cam yeah I'm sure that is an

absolute monster and a riot I mean you can do anything but out of the box I finally can say GTI

had no chance against that a Volkswagen GTI is no chance on a 1.9 or 1.6 pro show GTI I've heard

that the one sixes are sweeter than the one nice but yeah no pretty damn pretty damn good all right I

prove well we can talk about it next week as a as a top 10 experience of the year I I think this

car did make my top 10 I don't even remember if I talked about it next week I don't think we

did because we hadn't recorded this episode yet but it is definitely one worthy of inclusion

and that was a highlight of the year with our question yeah I did love it well I'll take it home

thank you you do that all right so happy holidays everyone and we will be back next week as we

said for for your episode of the year wrap up in the last episode of 2025 thanks for joining us

and stay out of trouble don't drink and drive all that yeah put your red soul look up down I did

Peugeot 205 Rallye - A Better MK1 Volkswagen GTI? — The Carmudgeon Show w/ Cammisa & Derek Tam-Scott — Ep 218

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