When you lease an EV, you usually have an option to buy it at the end for a fixed price. If the car is worth less than that fixed price, buying it can feel like you’re overpaying.
The payoff amount is the price you’d have to pay to end the lease and keep the car. If that number is too high compared to what the car is worth, it can cost more than you expect.
Concept
lease-end market value vs purchase option price
At the end of a lease, the car has a real-world value. But the lease also sets a buy price—so if the buy price is higher than the car’s value, you may be overpaying unless you negotiate.
They’re asking if the dealer can offer a deal so they can keep the car without paying the full buyout price. Sometimes dealers can make an arrangement, but it’s not guaranteed and depends on the car’s value and the dealer’s needs.
The idea here is: instead of paying the lease buyout price, you return the car and then buy it back from the dealer for a lower price. The big question is whether dealers will actually do that and how the numbers work out. It’s a strategy to avoid paying more than the car is worth.
KBB is a website that estimates what a car is worth. People use it to guess whether the price to buy out a lease is fair. Dealers may offer different numbers, but KBB helps you sanity-check the deal.
Concept
end-of-lease options (return vs buyout)
Near the end of a lease, you can either turn the car back in or keep it by paying the buyout price. If you turn it in, the dealer checks for damage and may charge you for problems. If you buy it, you skip that return process but you pay whatever the contract says.
If you turn the leased car back in, the dealer inspects it and may charge you if there’s damage or wear that goes beyond normal. So even if you don’t buy the car, you might still owe money to cover those issues. It’s smart to understand what they’ll charge for before you return it.
When you return a leased car, the dealer or leasing company often charges an admin fee for handling the return. It’s basically paperwork and processing costs.
Term
retail number
They’re talking about using an estimated market value (a retail price) as your bargaining number. The idea is to buy it for that value instead of letting the dealer mark it up.
Concept
buying a leased vehicle through the leasing company vs dealer
Sometimes you can buy your leased car straight from the leasing company. That can help you avoid extra dealer steps or charges.
The residual is the “expected value” of the car at the end of your lease. It helps set your monthly payment and also often becomes the price you pay if you buy the car.
The speaker uses a Chevy Blazer lease as an example of what happens when the vehicle’s real-world value doesn’t match the lease residual. If the Blazer isn’t worth the residual, buying it out can cost more than it’s actually worth.
Think of the capitalized cost as the starting price number the lease math uses. If you negotiate that number down, your lease payment usually goes down too.
When you return a leased car, the leasing company has to decide what it’s worth. Instead of guessing, they may sell it at an auction so the final price reflects real market demand. That means the value (and what happens next) can be uncertain for you.
GM EVs are electric cars made by General Motors. The point here is that, for some of these leased EVs, the leasing company may figure out the car’s value using an auction. That can affect how much the car is worth when you’re trying to buy it back or plan your next steps.
If you don’t handle the buyback steps early, the car might not show up for sale right away. It could take weeks before it’s listed on a dealer’s lot. So you can’t always count on immediate availability.
Even if a dealer tells you they’ll do a deal, they might still be able to back out later. The final decision can depend on their costs and how the car’s value plays out. So it’s important to get everything clearly agreed to in writing.
Buying it out means you’re choosing to keep the car instead of turning it back in. You pay a set price (the buyout), so it’s smart to check whether that price is a good deal compared to what similar cars cost now.
A DC charger is a fast charger for an electric car. Using fast charging a lot—especially charging to the very top—can be harder on the battery over the long run.
Market research means checking what similar cars cost and what options they have. It helps you make sure you’re not overpaying and that you can find a close replacement if you decide not to keep your current one.
Sometimes people pay more for a car because they really like it, not because it’s the best deal. Dealers may also charge more because lots of people want that exact car for emotional reasons.
If you want to keep the car after a lease ends, you usually have to pay the buyout amount. If you don’t pay cash, you may get a loan with rates that are closer to used-car financing, which can be more expensive than you expect.
When you take over ownership, the car’s registration has to be updated to the new owner. That usually means more paperwork and fees, not just signing one form.
Term
AC unit
The AC unit in an EV is responsible for cabin heating/cooling and often integrates with the vehicle’s thermal management system. Repairs can be expensive, and repeated issues can be a sign of broader thermal system problems rather than a simple one-off component failure.
Supercharging is Tesla’s fast charging system. It can recharge the car much quicker than most regular chargers, which is why some owners use it most of the time.
They’re talking about how often you use fast public chargers instead of charging at home. If you rely on Superchargers, you may pay more and also spend time waiting, so it’s worth checking if it’s actually cheaper or just convenient.
EA refers to Electrify America, a major U.S. fast-charging network. The hosts mention people lining up at EA stations for free charging, which highlights how incentives can drive charger congestion and affect the real-world value of “free” electricity.
They’re basically asking: is saving money on charging worth the time you spend waiting at chargers? If you’re stuck at a fast charger for a long time, the savings may not feel like a win.
They’re comparing two Tesla cars: the Model S and the Model Y. The Model S is generally the more upscale, comfortable one, and because it’s older in this case, the ownership math (including charging) can look different.
They bring up the Model Y as the alternative to the Model S. Even if you like the Model Y, the choice can come down to comfort and how the car fits your daily driving and charging habits.
They’re saying that after years of use, an EV’s battery may not hold as much charge as it used to. That means the car can go fewer miles before needing a charge.
In an EV, the high-voltage battery is the big battery that powers the car. People worry about it because if it ever has problems, it can be costly to fix and it can affect how far the car can go.
“Known-to-fail” parts are components that have a documented history of failing or wearing out prematurely on a specific model. The hosts argue that if you’ve already replaced those items on a Tesla Model S, similar issues could come back, which affects the cost-benefit of keeping versus switching cars.
The Supercharger network is Tesla’s system of fast charging stations. The hosts are saying that more EVs than just Teslas may be able to use these chargers now. That matters because it makes long-distance charging easier and can influence what deals Tesla offers.
End-of-quarter incentives are special deals that companies run near the end of a three-month period to boost sales. The hosts think Tesla sometimes offers trade-in or other perks around that time for certain owners. If you’re not in a rush, waiting could help you get a better deal.
The Tesla Model X is a bigger electric SUV from Tesla. The hosts say Tesla may offer incentives to Model X owners near the end of a quarter to encourage trade-ins. They also mention Tesla’s idea that these owners aren’t using charging as much as expected.
The Polestar 3 is an electric SUV from the Polestar brand. The hosts are recommending it as a non-Tesla option and saying it can charge quickly. It’s brought up to show that you’re not limited to Tesla anymore.
The EX60 mentioned here is an electric vehicle that the podcast says can charge very quickly. The main point is how fast you can add energy to the battery. It’s being compared based on charging speed.
The Cadillac Lyriq is an electric SUV. The podcast mentions it because the speaker doesn’t like the seats for comfort. It’s an example of an EV where comfort is part of the decision.
This means you can use Tesla’s fast-charging stations. If you have access, it can make long trips less stressful because you know where you can charge quickly.
Plug-in charge means you plug the car in and it starts charging with less hassle. Instead of fiddling with apps or menus, the system handles the setup for you.
A software update is like upgrading the car’s computer. In this case, it’s adding charging features so the car can guide you to the right charger and start charging more easily.
Ultium is GM’s shared “EV platform” that many different electric models are built on. If an update rolls out across the Ultium lineup, it should reach multiple GM EVs that share that platform.
They’re talking about Tesla’s advanced driver-assist features. The key point is whether it makes financial sense to buy a new car loan if you already have that software on your current Tesla.
This is a financial decision concept: whether upgrading to a similar vehicle is worth taking on new debt. The host’s argument is that if the new car would be very similar and you already have valuable features, the cost of a new loan may not be justified.
They mention the Tesla Model 3 as the example. The point is that if you already have a Model 3 with the features you care about, switching to another similar one may not be worth the extra cost.
Truck makers and reviewers run tests to see which pickups can really handle hard work. The goal is to help you buy a truck that won’t feel weak when you need it to do the job.
They’re joking about a simple way to guess who actually tows. The idea is that trucks used for towing tend to have hitch setups that look worn or used, not shiny “show” parts.
The hitch receiver is the metal “socket” on the back of the truck where you attach towing gear. If it’s still painted up or looks untouched, it may suggest the truck hasn’t been used much for towing.
To tow means pulling a trailer or something heavy behind the truck. Towing is the kind of use that can show whether a truck is actually set up and used for work.
The Honda Ridgeline is a pickup truck known for being more car-like and comfortable than many traditional “work truck” models. In the segment, it’s framed as a practical “people mover” that can still tow and haul for real-world farm or lifestyle use, even if it’s not the most extreme in towing specs.
Concept
baby trucks
“Baby trucks” means smaller pickups that are easier to live with than big full-size trucks. They’re often chosen for everyday driving and parking convenience.
Wheelbase is basically how long the truck is from the front wheels to the back wheels. A longer wheelbase usually makes the ride feel smoother and can help with stability.
Bed length is how long the truck’s cargo box is. The host is saying that when you choose a longer or shorter bed, the truck’s overall layout (including wheelbase) usually changes too.
A regular cab pickup usually has only two doors and no real back-seat for passengers. The segment is saying fewer people wanted that layout, so four-door trucks became more popular.
A four-door truck has doors for both front and back seats. The hosts are saying that once people started wanting rear-seat access, manufacturers had to redesign trucks to fit it.
They bring up the Chevrolet Colorado to show that mid-size trucks also have back doors now. The idea is that manufacturers changed designs because buyers wanted rear seating.
They’re comparing how much longer modern trucks are compared to older ones. More length means you need more room to park and maneuver, even if the truck is still the same general type.
The Toyota Tacoma is a popular midsize pickup truck. The hosts are using it to talk about how today’s trucks are bigger in some ways than older trucks, even if they’re still “midsize.”
Concept
jump doors
“Jump doors” here refers to a style of side-access doors on certain pickup cabs (often called coach-style or auxiliary doors) that swing outward. The point is that some older cab configurations are no longer common on modern trucks, affecting cab length and interior layout.
The “four by eight” dimension refers to standard building-material sizes (like plywood sheets) that pickup beds were designed to carry. This helps explain why truck bed width and certain dimensions haven’t changed dramatically over time—manufacturers optimize for common cargo.
The segment ties truck width and safety engineering to U.S. regulations, noting that crossing an 80-inch width threshold can trigger different rules. That affects how much structure, beams, and safety equipment (like side impact airbags) are needed, which in turn influences vehicle dimensions and design.
Curb weight is the weight of a vehicle as it sits ready to drive, without passengers or cargo. The hosts contrast curb weight with other changing dimensions (length, height, tire size), arguing that curb weight hasn’t risen as much as you might expect.
GVWR is the maximum weight the truck is allowed to be, including the truck plus everything you put in it. If that number is higher, the truck can usually carry more stuff safely and legally.
Payload is the amount of weight you can put in the truck—cargo, tools, passengers, and other load—after accounting for the truck’s own weight. It’s closely tied to GVWR: higher GVWR (or lower curb weight) typically means more payload capacity.
The Ford F-150 is one of the most popular full-size trucks. The important part here is that some F-150 configurations can be rated to carry over 3,000 pounds in the bed, which is why people buy them for hauling.
Concept
half-ton truck vs quarter-ton truck
“Half-ton” and “quarter-ton” are old categories people use for pickups. They’re not exact today, but the idea is: newer trucks can carry way more than the label implies.
“Camry with the bed” is a nickname for a pickup that’s more comfortable and car-like, not just a rough work truck. The point is that people started wanting pickups that feel easier to live with.
A lot of people don’t use the truck bed for real hauling. They treat it like a bigger trunk for groceries, tools, or random stuff, instead of carrying heavy equipment.
Concept
minivan replaced by SUVs and crossovers
They’re talking about how families changed what they bought. Minivans were popular for years, then SUVs became the go-to, and later crossovers replaced them because they were easier to drive and felt more like cars.
They’re saying many people drive their pickup to work like a normal car. So the truck has to be comfortable and practical for everyday trips, not just for hauling.
They’re pointing out that modern trucks come with way more choices—different trims and feature packages. That helps more people find a truck that fits what they actually want.
CAFE is a set of rules in the U.S. that pushes car companies to make their overall lineup get better gas mileage. If a company sells more fuel-efficient vehicles, it helps them meet the requirement without paying penalties.
If a company doesn’t hit the required average gas mileage, it can cost them money. The rules are designed so it’s easier to meet targets with certain vehicle sizes.
The Ford Maverick is a small pickup, but the host says it still isn’t as tiny as people might hope. The reason given is that regulations and fuel-economy targets affect how small a truck can realistically be.
The host says hybrids help because they can boost gas mileage without making the truck dramatically smaller. That makes it easier for the manufacturer to meet fuel-economy rules.
Body-on-frame means the car has a sturdy “skeleton” (a frame) and the rest of the body bolts to it. Many trucks use this because it’s strong and can be easier for manufacturers to reuse parts across different vehicles. It’s often chosen for towing and heavy-duty use.
Unibody means the body and frame are basically one combined structure. It can make the truck feel more car-like and efficient. The hosts are saying manufacturers are leaning toward body-on-frame designs instead.
The “Lobo” is being discussed as a type of truck that uses a frame. A frame truck is built differently than some other trucks, and that can change how it rides and handles rough roads. The podcast is using it to compare construction styles.
Commonality means automakers reuse the same basic parts or design across different models. The hosts say that with frame-based trucks, it’s easier to share the underlying structure and then change the body style. That helps manufacturers build vehicles cheaper and update them faster.
The Ram 1500 is mentioned as the “source” design for suspension parts used on another truck. The point is that automakers reuse suspension engineering across models. That can make vehicles cheaper to build and easier to upgrade.
Fleet sales are when companies or organizations buy vehicles in bulk. The hosts are saying that lots of fleet buyers can help support the sales of more expensive, option-heavy trucks. That can affect what kinds of trucks manufacturers focus on.
The hosts describe a strategy where automakers can roll out changes slowly and even replace the body “on top” to create a new generation without fully redesigning everything. This is essentially platform/parts sharing: reusing underlying structures and components to lower engineering cost and speed up product cycles.
The Ford Bronco Sport is a smaller SUV. The hosts are saying the Maverick borrows a lot from it, which helps keep the pickup’s development and parts costs down.
Torque vectoring is a way for the car to send power to the wheels differently depending on what you’re doing. That can help the truck grip better and feel more responsive in turns.
The hosts praise the Maverick hybrid as an “efficient truck,” highlighting how hybrid systems can reduce fuel consumption compared with conventional gasoline-only pickups. This is a key buying consideration for shoppers who want truck capability without the typical fuel-cost penalty.
The Hyundai Santa Cruz is a small pickup that’s built to feel more like a crossover. The hosts say it’s less “truck-like” for everyday hauling and getting used without worrying as much about the interior.
People want the usefulness of a big truck, but they don’t want the big size. So the market is shifting toward smaller pickups that are easier to drive and park.
The El Camino was a Chevy that looked like a car but had a pickup bed. The hosts are saying people don’t really want a modern version of that idea—they want today’s compact trucks instead.
The Subaru Brat was a small, unusual pickup-style vehicle from Subaru’s past. The hosts mention it as a niche example—something some people might be into, but not what most buyers are asking for.
Concept
Australian ute
“Australian ute” refers to the Australian-style utility vehicle (ute) tradition—typically a car-based body with an integrated pickup bed. The hosts use it as a cultural comparison to describe how the Maverick’s boxy shape and proportions feel more like a ute than a crossover.
A “crossover” usually feels more like a car and focuses on comfort, while a “truck” is built more for utility and hauling. The hosts are saying some small pickups feel more like crossovers than real trucks.
LIVE
Hello and welcome to another episode of the auto buyer's guide podcast today Travis and I are gonna be talking pick them up trucks
How they've changed over the years and why they've become so very expensive
We're also gonna be talking about the Montana loophole
Which is what a lot of people are doing to try and avoid taxes in some parts of the country
Least end questions and we might dive into a few other topics. So let's just roll the intro get right to it
I
Guess the first thing we should do is dive into our first voice memo. Let's roll it. Hey, all the buyers guide team
This is AJ from San Diego last week
You were talking about EV values and a lot of leases that were coming up soon
And I'm in a situation actually have a two-year lease on a EV and the lease is up in about six months
And I'm wondering if the value of my vehicle is a lot less than the payoff amount for the leases
Is there some board of my options? Basically? I want to keep it
I actually want to buy out the lease because I really like the EV
But say the pay off amount is 30,000 and the value at the time of the lease end is
25,000 I don't want to pay
$30,000 right for a car that's worth 25
But I want to keep the vehicle because I like it
Have you ever seen or heard of situations where?
At the lease end instead of me giving the vehicle back
Because I'm imagine Ford in this case the Maki
Of the dealer doesn't want that vehicle back because they have to try to sell a lower value
And I want to keep it so would I be able to go to the dealer perhaps and say hey listen
My payoff amount is 30 if I want to keep this
But instead of me turning it in would you basically I did like a turn it in they'd sell it back to me
For maybe 26,000 or something like that so I could essentially keep the vehicle
But buy it for a lower amount than the payoff amount
So I would effectively be sort of quote-unquote turning in the vehicle and then immediately buying it from the dealer at a price that was
Better for everybody
But I'm not sure if that's a thing or not
I've maybe heard some things on Reddit, but I've never found anybody that's actually done it
So I'm just curious if you have any experience with that
So Alex, this is a great question and thank you so much for sending it in out from San Diego
We've talked a couple times about what makes the most sense buying leasing big down payments
No down payments and there's so many ways to buy your vehicle
This one is interesting because the vehicle has been purchased or in this case leased and now leases coming do
But one of the reasons people like to to lease their EVs is because of some uncertainty on
Not just like the next generation of that EV and the technology bump, but also the pricing
This is why you leased or why a lot of people did because according to our viewer
It's 25,000 is what it's worth KBB probably trade-in value something like that. Maybe that's retail
Let's hope it's retail or
$30,000 to buy it out from your lease and no one wants to spend $5,000 that they don't have to
But here is where you are in a little bit of a bind when it comes to your specific vehicle
And some people will say hey, I like this car some people say hey, I like my car
Mm-hmm at the end of your lease your options are drop it off or buy it out
Those are the two options available and all of that is facilitated through your dealership
The it doesn't have to be the one that you bought it from or in this case leased it from
It can be any of the manufacturer options
But you do have to go to them and in this case your best bet is to go in and say
I would like to drop off this vehicle
That means you're gonna have to pay any damage charges that may be associated that you drop off
You're gonna have to pay the basically the drop-off fee because it's the processing of the paperwork and the disposition fee
Yeah
So you're gonna have to pay those fees, but you tell the dealer beforehand. I would like to
To to to drop off my lease complete my lease
But then I would also like to purchase this exact vehicle and the best thing you can tell them is here is the number that it says
It's worth again. Let's hope that might be the retail number
And if it says retails worth 25,000 you say I would like to buy it for 25,000 before you put it up on the on the website
and put it up for sale and
They might go along with it right because they go. Oh, this is quick and easy boom boom boom same person
Two sets of paperwork same day, you know, maybe we can do that
However, the dealer wants to make money on it. And if you say I'll buy it for
Just what the nearest one in the market goes for they might say, yeah, we're gonna put it up for this amount and
If it sells it sells and it's gonna come down to it's gonna come down to what the leasing company thinks
It's worth to the dealer
If you if and actually I should should clarify one other thing here
You actually can buy your lease out without going to the dealer
So if you just want to buy it from the leasing company, you just contact the leasing company no dealer required
But in your situation where you're trying to buy it for what it's worth rather than what
The lease buyout is the residual says it should be worth
Actually in a similar situation with our Chevy Blazer because it is not worth the residual on that lease
and that's how GM got to such a cheap lease rate was not by
Discounting the the capitalized cost of the vehicle, but like ramming the residual through the roof
So it's not worth keeping it in that's this same way
But if we could find a dealer that would say hey, you know, here's the value
Here's what we think we could do that might work, but it's really just gonna come down to you contacting the dealer
They're gonna have to call the financing company
work through all the details of what that car actually could be worth and
As I have seen unfortunately, I will tell you this unfortunately as I have seen with some
Especially GM EVs. It does seem like often
The leasing company is going to make it go through an auction in order to determine that value because they don't want to just put a
Number on the car they want they want it to be a market value kind of thing
So they'll take the car back
They'll run it through an auction and then some other dealer might end up with it
That is unfortunately how some leasing companies definitely want to do it the
The lot of questions around that it's a little uncertain
But there's also a good chance that if you did nothing that it would still end up on your same dealer's lot
They might actually choose to keep it because the the finance company said at least a company may tell them eventually
Here's what the deal is. Here's what it's worth, etc. And then they'll decide
Without you calling and trying to do this in advance if you just went to the dealer dropped it off
It might be several weeks before that exact same car is suddenly up for sale on the lot
So, you know just be prepared for this to be uncertain a lot of this is gonna be out of your hands
Almost I mean immediately and and the price that you're seeing online, you know
KBB is one thing, but what are they actually selling for in your area?
You know like you said the the man you the dealer doesn't just get the car for free
They're going to have to pay the leasing company for the value of that
But if you've shopped correctly you have a good idea of what that's gonna be worth
And so you'd say hey
I just want to pay that for my car and and you would hope that the dealer honors their word
But they don't they don't have to sell it to you. Yeah, even after they say yes, we'll take it in
Maybe it doesn't have to go to auction
So here's here's where I say, you know your car versus your specific car like this car versus my car if you love that car
That's the car you drove your kid home in from the hospital. It's the one where you know, you got married in
If you need to keep that car you married in the car was the priest of the backseat
You have so many options these days. I mean drive through without leaving the vehicle. You're at the mate of honor go
Uh, there's back seats, right? Those are your weaknesses. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Just check it. Just check it. Just check it.
Maki with rattles cans just married. It's a where was where was where was the cat that was the ring cat
You know bringing up the bringing up the rings. Oh, I'm sure sitting there on top of the center console. It'd be fine
That's the aisle. Obviously. Anyway, this is why you tune in
You might have to pay in it in the elbow
What I would say is if that car is super sentimental to you just buy it out because
Things are gonna be out of your hands and you don't want to pay more than it's worth
But if you go, oh my god, I loved this vehicle. Yeah, you just think I think I'll try it with the dealer
But also just be aware that hey
I'm just gonna go by the exact same of the what I had and I actually act to admit that with an EV
I'm a little bit less worried about how did somebody else treat it versus how I treated it
Because they can't you know romp on the engine in the same way
They can't have not done their oil changes
They can't you know like the maintenance issues are a little bit less
The worst thing they can do is charge add a DC charger all the time all the way up to a hundred percent
And that that just doesn't that's not gonna happen that way
So I wouldn't worry about it and and what I would do I'd say what did I what what's the one or two things?
I might want to change on mine. You know, oh gosh
I got the black, but I wish I got the green or there's a package. I'm missing
That's your that's your market research and you can go find you know
Just about the exact same thing you had with maybe one or two changes. So I wish it were simpler, but you either
Are likely to pay the the let's call it the
What's the word I'm looking for?
The nostalgia tax, right? This is mine or or you hopefully find a dealer who will work with you and shop your dealers
Yeah, you have a bunch in the area. It's worth a drive to keep your car
Long answer, but it's a good question and I will remind you in this process. There are a few other things to keep in mind
You're you're gonna have to finance that it used car rates if you're not gonna pay cash to buy out your lease
You are also going to have to re-register the vehicle
So it's not like a simple title transfer, etc
It's not gonna be painless or moneyless because you're gonna have to
Re-register retitle the vehicle the dealership will charge for that. There's that
Now we listed as two owners not one owner most likely, which is there's that Lee, but exactly
There's that disposition fee that we mentioned
Where in tears gonna have to be paid for on the vehicle unless somehow the dealer is gonna be like, okay
Well, you promise to buy it. We will wave this if you actually buy it kind of a thing
There's some possibility may be around that but some dealers may choose not to be flexible. So
That is rather unfortunate. Let's move on to our next question
This one comes from Mark. He's hoping that we can help them make a decision. They have a 2016 model s 75 with 82,000 miles
They bought the car noon. It's in great condition
But over the last two years they've upgraded the melting screens and weak suspension parts other junction boxes. Wow and
$5,000 on an AC unit apparently the question is should they just trade it in for a new model?
Why the wife really likes her car?
And she's hesitant to give up the car with the free lifetime
Supercharging and they do use Tesla superchargers 90% of the time. Wow, but they have a high voltage plug installed in the garage as well
I'm worried about having a 10 year old electric car with high voltage battery
They could go bad and would be out of warranty
Would you recommend keeping the car or take it and take advantage of the supercharging as long as possible or get out of it?
Well, it's still running and get some trade in value for it
Alex, there's one number that's immediately jumping off. You're you're seeing the same thing, right?
90% of your charging is at a supercharger
I know people do it, especially when they said you have free charging
You and I have mostly people lined up a lot of Volkswagen's lined up at EA stations
Waiting for their free charging and that to me is sort of a is it worth your time?
And it seems like 82,000 miles worth, you know, that'd be 78
You know 77,000 miles worth of time sitting at a supercharger. If it's that important to you
That's probably the reason to do it. There's the devil, you know versus the devil you don't
And the model s and model y are not the same car not not at all
Nothing against the model y but the s is nicer, but as you say here, this is this is an older s
It's not a brand new one
I'm breaking it down here. It looks like um if I do the calculations here, which I just quickly did judging or guessing
About three and a half miles per kilowatt hour 14 cents per kilowatt hour depending on where you are on the country
That's high or low for me and be wicked low because we pay a lot more than than that here for business
But but you'd be looking at about $300 a year in savings
So for Travis it'd be $150 a year in savings to use that supercharger network. That would be my question would be
Is that actually worth it to you in time?
the only way that makes sense is if
There's a supercharger at their at their grocery store, you know
This is a ten-year-old car that does less that does 8,000 miles a year
And so it's it's everything around town a 75 had
250 odd, you know miles of range something like that. It's probably down to 230
But if you're just putts in around town and it's it's probably out of convenience at that point
I
Would I would say
I'm not as worried about the high voltage battery. Okay, I'll start there. That's not my biggest concern
It's understanding the model Y
Is gonna be a very different experience. I had a model S loaner recently when my car was in for some service and two screens
Very different experience than one screen, right?
And if it's about, you know, the Y is easier to get in and out of and you really appreciate that
Well, that's reason to just do it in the first place
But yeah, if you're holding on to that free supercharging
It it's it's gone, right? This is a legacy carry-over thing and
And and that would be a reason to keep it. I like the model S more than the model Y myself, but
You know, hold on to it save a few bucks, I don't think that would really not be my top concern
What I would be tempted to do would be to try and locate a
One of the few Genesis G80
Electrics that are still around because it's about the same size as your model S
It's gonna be an experience. That's actually somewhat similar. I love the way the G80 drives
It charges way faster than your model S did and you could get a new one
It would also be strangely unique because Travis and I were looking at sales numbers last year and the G80 electric
They sold I think it was less than a hundred something like that in
20.5 which is why it is gone. It did not get the update that they got in Korea, but
Actually, I always kind of liked it
Outside of that, I think I probably would agree moving on to something new might be worth it
especially as you've noted you've spent, you know money over the last few years here
replacing some of the parts that are known to fail on the model S and
Logic would send tend to indicate here that some of these failures may recur
I know that the the screen has been upgraded to a better screen with better quality plastics and and glues inside
So that may not recur
But there there were some known issues that that you will may still see there on on your 10-year-old model S
So I would probably lean towards getting a new one if that's something that you're interested in and I would also say the
World has definitely changed in the last decade since you got your model S
And there's still there's some really good non Tesla alternatives out there if you're if you're open to them
And a lot of them would be able to use the supercharger network now, too
Yeah, I would also add if you're not so sure on this one
I just know that Tesla at the end of quarter has been doing some interesting
incentives that go along and
You know, I think at the last quarter it was if you if you trade in we'll do a last last chance one time
Switch over from your full self-driving and we'll put it in the new vehicle
I know they had done free supercharging before I wouldn't count on it
I'm just saying it's one of those things that if you don't need to do it tomorrow
You're not panicking maybe wait till the end of this current quarter and see if they do try to throw an incentive out there for model S owners
Model X owners specifically right because those are some of the older legacy vehicles
And if you've been the original owner, they want your money again
And so they might try to do something to do that and their their data says that you're not supercharging that much right just the
People are not supercharging that much and you you might be that one who says oh, okay. I can actually take advantage, but
Yeah, what I think a ten-year-old model S or a brand new model Y
I think I'd be in the I'd be in the minority leaning towards a ten-year-old model S
I just I like it a lot better for reasons
But nothing against the why I would lean towards checking out something like the updated Polestar 3 or the new Volvo
EX-60 both of those are gonna have extremely quick charging
The EX-60 is gonna have 400 miles of range here real soon
I would also check out honestly any of the Cadillac EVs the lyric has seats that I find uncomfortable
But other than that and seats are very personal fit thing other than that honestly Cadillacs entire EV lineup is pretty darn solid
The range figures are decent the efficiency figures are relatively decent the price tag is right
They're gonna charge about as fast as your model S. They have supercharger access and coming
They've already they've actually already integrated the supercharger access significantly better than most people in the software and
Coming very soon. It's gonna offer plug-in charge
So the experience will be identical to your Tesla where you just plug it in and away it goes and it charges you whatever right now
At least the software will tell you what stations are available and how many stalls are available and where to charge
Etc. And you can initiate the charge from the car. That's that's coming in a
Software update real soon. It's starting on the bolts and it's moving across the entire ultium lineup where it'll tell you
Hey, pull into start Charles stall to be you pull in there
You hit the button on this on the screen and then you go out and you plug it in so as far as I'm concerned
That's already good enough. If you want to take it to the next level
That's coming in a software update later this year. Well, you literally skip one button press, but yeah, that's a huge deal
No, it shouldn't be but yeah, it's
It's an interesting question and I had the conversation the other day with a friend who had that full self-driving
Switchover and I said in that case I would hold on to your full self-driving
It doesn't make sense to get a new loan on a vehicle. You that's gonna be very similar
It was new model three or my model three and also full self-driving the hundred dollars a month
Not I mean your free supercharger is gonna save you some money, but but it's it's not quite as much money
Yeah, so let's move on to our next topic, which is the truck question
Yes, you know, we get a lot of
Comments that mentioned that we talk a lot about EVs and we've talked about why we talk about EVs because that is the newest
Vehicle technology that's where a lot of new models are coming out
But you know what really hasn't changed much over the last couple years
It seems like trucks and and we're I was looking at this earlier and I text Alex
I said, let's talk about trucks because
They have changed a lot and not a lot
But the biggest one is what they're used for and who is buying them because over the last few days that has changed
drastically
And I will I will start this with a little tale
My good friend Roman Micah who honestly to the listeners actually is a good friend. I went to his son's wedding
but
Roman and I have to say that's true raw. I have photos. I have photos to prove it. Anyway
No, Roman is a very good friend, but this is one area where we argue a little bit
Roman believes and this is a nuance thing Roman believes that that people use their trucks or truck things more than I
Think they do and honestly more than most truck manufacturers think they do
But it's essential for TFL truck in their business to to have tests that prove which truck is toughest and which truck does this and which
Truck does that the best and I would argue that are watching their content
Right, and I would argue that that that
Result is actually important to any truck buyer out there because nobody's gonna buy the truck that they think is the weak link in the chain
Right ever even if you aren't gonna do truck things with your truck
You want to know it can can do those man the truck things
You can truck the truck out of it
But but here's my challenge my challenge to Roman has always been let's do a video
We'll call it my hitch don't lie and we'll go to we'll go to a smattering of towns across America
Some some Midwest town some Texas town some California town some Colorado towns. We'll go to Walmart
And then we will walk down the row of pickup up trucks
And if they have paint on their hitch receiver chrome on their ball or some other kind of plug in there that is not a hitch
They probably have never towed
Because anybody that knows
Your your hitch receiver loses its paint the moment you stick something in there in tow with it once or twice
Yeah, and no no ball no hitch ball is gonna stay nice and shiny and perfect after you've towed in that for any length of time
Anybody that toes break it was probably gonna have a greasy ball and this is not a sexual show so we will just
Warn everybody to clean that's a different. That's a different podcast
Different podcast. You got a super subscribe for that. This is my hitch don't lie, you know, so yeah
Mike my question here is has always been who uses the trucks for truck things and
When you ask the truck makers, they will not tell you
And it's it's because I think they're it's more on where you and I are at versus where
Where Romans at and they don't want to do anything to hurt the image of the truck buyer because buying a truck
Owning a truck ends up being a lot about image in a lot of instances
So I have owned two trucks in my entire life and my favorite of them was my Honda Ridgeline
Because that is the perfect people mover truck and not the truckiest truck out there and I used it to truck
I had towed with it. I loaded it with stuff. It's right now living its best life on a farm as a farm truck
It's a truck, but it doesn't have the highest gross vehicle. It doesn't have the highest towing
It doesn't have I've endured this that and the other thing
But that's how people are doing it using it for and I will add that I'm not
Anti-truck the first vehicle I ever drove was actually the one that I have now as my grandfather's 94 Chevy
And then I learned to drive on an 89
Nissan hard-body two-wheeled
Now serious question serious question. Yeah, which truck is gayer?
The Santa Cruz the Maverick or the Ridgeline?
Okay, we need to be really clear. Am I allowed to answer this question?
You are allowed to answer this question
I'm allowed to answer this question because one of the two of us is gay still question
Which which of these three is the one of us asked for me to answer
Because this is the ultimate problem with the baby trucks in America
Ridgeline oh, it's definitely it's definitely the Ridgeline and this is where I will say my culture is not your costume, buddy
So, yeah, I don't I don't that truck up
Yeah, I don't I mean, okay, so I've already been told it's not what I think it is or it is what I think it's not
And I'm actually stuck between the Santa Cruz and the Maverick and I like all of these
Especially for their own Maverick's adorable. It's for the Zelenius. It's okay. Yeah, I mean, I'm leaning if I had to pick one
I'd lean towards Santa Cruz
But I it's also daily driving I'd probably prefer Santa Cruz, but if I was buying one, I probably buy a Maverick
So I guess there's there's my answer not answer
Mm-hmm. I was wrong. I should back. Let's let's back up this thought process here with some numbers. I'll just go over this
Really quickly here. So in 1964
The f-150 f-150 the f-series has been America's most popular truck for quite some time
Depending on how you count those numbers because GM of course splits things across two brands
If you smush them together then it it is more than F
But we'll we'll go with Ford's marketing line here for a bit. We'll roll for the moment for the moment
So f-series in 1964
The most popular wheelbase apparently was the 114 inch wheelbase
interestingly
the longest one was 128 inches but
Most pickup trucks for decades and decades
Had this sort of range between about a hundred hundred ten and a hundred twenty two hundred twenty five inch wheelbases for a really long time
In essence at the time it was eight foot bed was the hundred twenty eight inch wheelbase the six and a half foot bed was the hundred fourteen inch wheelbase
We still have a one hundred twenty two inch wheelbase in an f-series truck now
So we have wheelbases that are within that that window
But of course, that's not the most popular wheelbase now when we look at what we're seeing now in the f-series lineup
The most popular wheelbase apparently is the one hundred forty one inch wheelbase because
regular cab pickup trucks are not the most popular and
They essentially didn't exist in 1964 now for those that are that are interested in the in the trivia in the late 50s
International Harvester created the first
What I would argue actually is the first modern four-door truck because it actually had four big doors
It was the travelette as I recall and it was big. It was like
235 inches long somewhere around there, but at the time
America said that's too big. We don't need a truck with four doors
We don't want a truck with four doors that thing
Yeah, so it actually took quite some time for the four-door truck to come back
In 1965 Ford put some tiny doors in here and there, but it wasn't until
1997 that what we think of now as the the big four-door truck
That's it's only since 97 that this has really been around it took everybody else a while to catch up and
now
the big door big back doors or what everybody wants to the point even when
Manufacturers are creating mid-sized trucks like Tacoma or the Colorado or even the Maverick
The back doors are required and there's no such thing as a regular cab Maverick
It actually has back seats the size of a SUV and it's sort of I guess similar segment there
But here's the result of this in 1964 the longest f-150 was about 206 inches long
Now the longest f-150 is about
245 inches long and the average f-150 is more than three feet longer than the average f-150 back then and
that I
Mean that adds up. I mean that's your garage space. That's your parking space. That's that's
Sitting in traffic. Just how much more room each vehicle carries in that additional space. I did a quick look and
The truck I own is a 1994 it is a 2500
But it's the exact same as the 1500 essentially and my truck with a six and a half foot bed six foot six is
218 inches long and the best-selling mid-sized pickup truck is a Toyota Tacoma and that
That got rid of it's what I'm gonna call it jump doors right those those accessory doors
It's it swings out coach style and it's not a full-size. They got rid of that by the way
So they have a somewhat regular cab or extended cab
213 inches for that or if you get the short bed
It'll be
213 the biggest one
227 so we're looking at in in 30 years that mid-sized pickup is now
Longer than my truck with less bed space and I would also argue less cab space
Mm-hmm. What is interesting in a way is that some of the other dimensions haven't changed as much
The width of the trucks have not changed appreciably. They're up about four percent versus
1964 and that's logical because the bed was designed to accommodate a four by eight sheet of something or four by sheets of something or
American size and pallets etc. So that four foot dimension is essential and aside from that
There was no necessity to get much wider side impact regulations
The needs for extra beams and the doors and side impact airbags etc did increase with slightly but not by any enormous amount and
Legislatively in the US if you go over 80 inches wide, there's some different rules here and there the height has increased by a
Reasonable amount though. That's up about 12 percent. So about nine inches or so average for the body height
That seems to be ground clearance tire size tires have definitely gotten much much bigger but diameter wise
so more ground clearance bigger tires and taller frames have definitely
Happened because payloads have gone up as well
Curb weights though that actually has not gone up as much as some of these other dimensions
There are actually f-150s
Currently on sale now that are lighter than some of the f-150s that were sold in 1964
well
I mean I remember the switch to the aluminum body and the the hullabaloo that that ensued
but it's also I
Mean so your gross vehicle weights can go up even though you're and you're well if you lose weight the gross vehicle weight
And theory should be able to go up
But for me it could stay the same could stay the same but you'd have higher payloads. Yeah
WR is sort of a yeah. Yeah, that's what I mean is your payload, right?
But gvwr has gone way up. I mean there. These are we're now talking
Depending on the model year. We've been talking about over the last decade or so
Ford has created f-150s
With payload capacities over 3,000 pounds, which is over a ton. I'm ton and a half really so
the quarter-time truck
Yeah, it should be a should be a half ton truck here not a quarter ton
But should be a half ton truck and and the payloads are bonkers
Depending on the year and the configuration etc
But what we've seen in this industry here is it's interesting when you look at the chart of truck sales accelerating
They were already growing before the advent of the the four doors
And and we got other different formats of doors and trucks and extra seats here and there throughout the decades
It's not like
97 was the year where it turned into
Camry with the bed
But the first time we've ever seen it, but it's really where it took off the transition to
Camry with the bed. That's where it really we really saw this acceleration
And and we've seen sedan sales and other formats of vehicle sales drop in this this interim because
That seems to be what people want. They don't want
A work style bed in the back. They're not carrying a toolbox or a gas tank
If you look out and about most people use their pickup truck beds as an open trunk
Or a closed but not quite watertight trunk where they've got some sort of lid on it
But most of the time it's either empty or there's just some light stuff rolling around
We didn't see
Pickup trucks did not go from under a million units a year
To over five million units a year because suddenly america discovered
DIY because they suddenly started buying
More boats more trailers more this more that trailer sales have gone up
Unquestionably but when you actually look at trailer sales over the last 30 40 years
They have not increased like truck sales have
No, I mean and there's there's always the well, there's a population increase and that's true and you know, but but it's also
And we've covered it before it's where the sedan seemingly was no longer fit to hold the family even though for decades it did
So now we needed a minivan and the minivan had its had its high
But then we had these suvs and the suv was way too truck-like at the beginning for
Families to want to jump on board but as they got closer to cars to crossovers
The they replaced the minivan and at the same time
People said oh I can have a truck and a truck in most of these cases was
Um a lot more livable right and I think that's the livability is where things started to increase
but people use their truck as their commuter car and maybe they have
Maybe they have someone in the passenger seat every once in a while. Maybe they've got the dogs in the back
but
It's become like you said just the modern sedan and
To some extent the technology has has worked its way that direction as well because there are so so so many more
Options available in a pickup truck than there ever used to be it used to be about
Function and now it's about luxury. It's about convenience. Now. Don't get me wrong
I don't think it's a bad thing that trucks have become a style thing
It's it's also not necessarily entirely all the consumers fault because car companies have been pushing trucks in a big way
In in marketing in sales for a bunch of really good and interesting reasons for them
I should say trucks are quite profitable for a variety of reasons that their their high volume
Trucks also don't have the same emissions compliance as far as fuel economy requirements
I should say clarify their requirements in the united states
So the way that the corporate average fuel economy scheme works which has been around for decades and decades now
And has been tweaked over the decades
Of course theoretically doesn't exist anymore because of the current administration, but don't worry. It'll be back
And we live in a world created and shaped by them is the important thing
The way cafe was was last tweaked
They have a a size format
Calculation so when they look at the footprint of the vehicle wheelbase times track with
On the truck side of things
When you make the truck smaller and smaller and smaller if the fuel economy has to get higher and higher and higher
But if you make the truck big enough your fuel economy get requirement gets low enough that it's easily achievable
So you don't pay fines on it. So that's kind of incentivized
It's incentivized these bigger trucks and it's also
Disincentivized smaller trucks without
Really high fuel economy numbers this explains why for instance a maverick is not as small as I think people might want it to be
Why it has a hybrid as a really low cost option because they needed to get the fuel economy numbers up
And why we will never see a truck as small as the Toyota trucks of the 1970s and 80s in the u.s
Again, they were just too small for this footprint calculation
We know that you're up with gone forever. Yeah gone forever and we know that that this administration is only temporary
so
Why would manufacturers suddenly try to bring
Different vehicles in to this market when those rules and regulations could snap back in three years?
It's unlikely
but I will say
that
The the weird twist with this
has been
A focus by car companies on body on frame trucks rather than the unibody trucks like lobo
Like the like the maverick and the maverick lobo and
Santa Feet Center, which I think actually is an interesting unexplored niche
so big focus on body on frame trucks because
The frames can share significant design traits with other vehicles in the manufacturer's lineup
So there's a lot of commonality
Right a lot of commonality between pickup truck frames and body on frame suv frames
Toyota for instance uses a very related set of components in all of their big suvs and their trucks small big
um
Gladiator uses a front suspension design based on the ram 1500 etc
So there's lots of commonality there. You can swap different boxes on top pretty easily
So what we also see is manufacturers keeping the same frame
More or less tweaking it here and there and changing the body on top. So it helps reduce costs
Make certain upgrades easier etc
And then we also see them focusing on these these high dollar value trucks the luxury trucks the luxury add-ons etc
largely supported by the volume
of fleet sales and
Low-cost model sales. So, you know, the king ranches and the Platinum's of the world can exist because
PG&E and and every utility out there and the u.s. Government and border patrol etc
I mean, they're all buying a ton of trucks, right? So that helps support some of these other vehicles
So huge massive tank sands and massive profits and some of the mechanical changes
They can they can roll out very slowly like glacial changes on the frame design of a truck over time
And then they could replace the body on top and call it an all-new generation truck etc
And that part is quote-unquote easier than redesigning a utah body truck
Like a maverick or ridgeline etc
Where profits tend to be a little bit lower on those vehicles because the the maverick
Shares a lot with with the bronco sport more bronco sport really than escape in a way
but
but the vehicle
Is so unique that it's not like it shares parts directly with
Some yes, but a lot of it is more inspired by and related to
Then direct large portions of the unibody copied right out of escape or
Bronco sport. It's it's not quite that simple and it was a result
It's a bit pricey, but I will say let me know what you think about this
I like I think the combination of of maverick especially and its drivetrains
Is absolute perfection. I think ford stumbled into this. Maybe I don't know if they exactly
intended to
But lobo as an actual little baby sport truck makes sense. It is
Actually quite a lot of fun
People make fun of it, but it is actually quite a lot of fun. The suspension is firm. It has a torque vectoring or axle which is novel
And then the hybrid model is fantastic because it's the efficient truck in america
And I think they could just kick the base drivetrain to the curb
Yeah, I don't I don't think it would do a lot of damage because if someone's buying a maverick for cost saving
They're probably they should be looking at the hybrid especially long-term cost saving
and if they want something more interesting to drive and
You know admittedly the maverick is going to be more functional as a truck than the Santa Cruz
Not only is that bed shape a little bit easier to work with but
The interior is designed to be used a little bit more right beaten up or not as worried about
Yeah, they they could cut it and I'd be curious what that total sales number breakdown looked like
I didn't have a chance to look that in advance
But I'd bet you the split would say hey even you know the cost savings by not having another engine in there
Would probably lend itself to maybe some loss in sales
But an increased profitability
And it's the other thing that strikes me interesting about the smaller and they're not small the small
truck segment in america is I think by the sales numbers
We have proved that what people want is a smaller format big truck
They don't want an El Camino revival revival, right?
And maybe some Subaru owners do with a brat
But by and large what people are definitely gravitating to is
Maverick with its boxy thing going on not Santa Cruz with that sort of cross-trainery
Look that really does it scream australian ute el modern el Camino
Very crossover right versus truck to a large extent also the ridgeline does in the same way
I know it's true people want a smaller fact or smaller form
truck and not one that's a
Sporty truck in a modern sense, but more of a
You know a 454
Let's let's be able to drop it and put some big tires on it and big exhaust
But it doesn't need to feel like a like a sports car, right? I'm thinking like the cyclone of old that that didn't have
body
Like a Camaro right it was it was here's a truck here's a little body kit and off you go
So yeah that that that segment of truck culture is
Is unique right? Yeah, the number of times I see a slam duly and I'm going what what are we doing here?
I don't mean I mean a two-wheel drive that's just lower to the ground. I mean slammed. Yeah, that is that is another interesting twist
We have definitely seen a huge rise in the three quarter ton and one ton truck sales
To people that do not haul and do not tow like the ultimate style statement there and that's a
I think an unintended stroke of marketing genius in a way. I don't know if
Ford and GM and Chrysler at the time
intended
To to do what they did
Which is create this like
I don't know. I hate to say it
But it is it is sort of a fashion statement in the way that people buy expensive handbags and whatever for the brand name
That's kind of what's going on here
Before they separated them and they were just the f-series trucks or
Ford Ford definitely labeled things for a long time
But not quite as clearly
As in you know the last I don't know x number of decades since we've clearly had
F1 50 250 350 450 550 550 650 650 etc
Part of me does wonder when we're going to find
A more consumer version of an f5 50 like when are we going to start seeing?
Mack trucks
At targeted to pick up trucks. I you know, I I remember
I and this is this is very pacific northwest oriented
I want to say it was lawyer maloy nfl player who had like a 550 with a
Mix semi cab designed to look more like a standard pickup truck
And I went what in the hell is that and then I thought also feels like the coolest thing in the world for like the 13 year old boy
Uh, but you know and it's and it's got the big diesel or at least a big fuel tanks, right?
The big fuel tanks on each side and it's a whole statement and you're looking at like
What what are we doing here? How do you park this thing? That's that's the vehicle that actually needs two spaces
Oh, yeah, it's not designed to function in this world and there's no parking garage
Where where that will function I there is up where I live
there is someone with a gmc top kick and a
Pickup truck bed grafted onto the back. I assume it was a dump truck probably at one point in its life
But but you do see people running around in some of those sometimes
So I'm kind of surprised that they haven't capitalized on on that particular market
so
So here's what I want to go back to is
What the maverick is today and sort of how far we've come in this different direction in these different directions
Because I remember the reason there was an 89 hard body in the household was because that was one of the best on fuel
Right. It was a four cylinder. It was a two-wheel drive and that was one of those vehicles where the truck got pushed as a truck
But it wasn't overbuilt for things that it would never accomplish, right?
But you know what has I think increased more than anything else has been this off-road performance truck
Because it used to be if you want to go off-road you bought a jeep that was the vehicle that you took
And they are way better for off-road for I mean depending on your use case because of the wheelbase
Right because if they're their ground clearance and their break over angles
And now people say, oh, I want my truck to do everything ever humanly possible
So that's why they get these huge lifts so they can have break over angles of much smaller vehicles
But in the in the you know, I have I have here. This is my fun little rail. Like this is a 1994
brochure the order packet for the truck that I have in my driveway and the z71 package
Basically just says oh, yeah, there's a skid plate
I mean, that's the gist of it tightly to different tune suspension, but like there's a skid plate
It's not here's your lift and and you know all these lockers and all the
That has been a huge boon for that market and it's not like it's down to sales
But I think it's I think it's why do we need off-road trucks for people who will never go off-road?
Bear with me for a second. Well, I mean, hey, it's still the same same style
Question as the truck in the first place
So if you're buying the truck is a style statement, why not buy the designer berkin bag truck that you want? That's that's how I
I'm sorry truck bros if I have related your truck to apparently a an expensive handbag
But I have never seen and I don't know anything about other than the name and you hear it on the tick talk at any rate
so
On the tick talks so
But that's but that's what it is. But then at the same time
I actually understand it and it makes sense in this way. So think of it this way. I would say
in in 1964
The average new car in america cost
I believe it was somewhere around the equivalent of three months salary for the average person
car loans were relatively short
the the ability for
a married family with kids to afford
Not just one car, but two cars in in say the midwest
Two cars plus maybe a weekend car if you were doing well for yourself
Or you had an older car that you drove and you're like, I want to buy a fun weekend car
It was significantly more affordable then
And that's when we saw this this sort of
Two sedan family with a pickup truck or two sedan family with a convertible or two sedan family with maybe
You know an old willies or something like that hanging out it kind of worked better
We look at it now the average new car cost in america is $50,000 the average american salary is $61,000
That's nearly 10 months salary. So significantly longer
But housing now occupies so much more of people's budgets that they're squeezed
So it's not simply that cars have become more affordable
The entire affordability problem for the average american family
Is impacting this segment over and over and over again
So in this world when you have to have one car that does it all
in a weird sort of way
The truck has taken over from that family vehicle that family that might have had two cars in a truck
Now maybe it's one car in a truck
And the truck has to do car things too, which is why I need the backseat
And and it takes over from that family that maybe had two cars and
A willies because you can't jam the kids or whatever in that either
So you got to take the do the one thing again kind of sort of makes sense
And then I think the the rise of big panoramic sunroofs and just that that whole genre of vehicle with the glass on the top
That's kind of taken over from the convertible because
Can you really afford this weekend fun thing anymore?
You go well, I still want to see the sun so I'll buy
The one thing with the sunroof now instead
Right and I think that also speaks to the these comfort features, right?
All the massaging seats and the heated seats in every row and I think I think it's a tungsten trim that has like
23 or 27 speakers in the cab and I'm going where are you finding crevices to put these things in
But not only are people buying it, right? They wouldn't really exist people weren't buying it
But it says this is replacing that family car and that fun car and we're putting all in one
Obviously a big truck is not really going to be a fun car in the way that I would think fun car
They say it's it's loud and they're way faster than they used to be
You know the the horsepower numbers are astonishing these days even just for base engines
So that's that's how you get your your adrenaline your oh my my my vehicle has value
Is it just in ways that it never needed to and and to speak to that my truck
Again my order sheet
You could have purchased a 4.3 liter v6 a 5 liter v8 a 5 7 a 6 and a half liter v8 or a 6 5 turbo diesel
And so my fall is basically right in the middle that 5 7 the the small block 200 horsepower
310 pound feet of torque
The toy of Tacoma and I just I just picked Tacoma because that was the mid-sized truck
that has
278 horsepower at a minimum and
317 pound feet of torque so
More than my truck and that's not even counting the the more powerful hybrid if you were to get my equivalent
In a modern Chevy full-size pickup
It's the turbo it's the turbocharged four cylinder and it has 310 horsepower 430 pound feet of torque
That's a that's a rocket ship compared to what I have and it has a lot more gears
Yeah
The interesting the other part of this that is that is worth commenting on and we've commented a little bit about before
About how the demographic of the new car buyer is skewing dramatically towards the wealthy
Was reading something recently? I'd have to find a link
Maybe we'll toss it down there in the description if I can actually track it down, but it's the premise was that basically
between 1980 and now
The percentage of people in the lower half of the income scale in north america buying new cars
Was never huge, but it has fallen to essentially zero
And the number of new cars purchased by the top five percent income earn earners in the united states in that same time period
Has gone up by I believe it was like four thousand percent
So the wealthy were always buying cars, but now car companies have realized it is more profitable
To try and convince those people to buy a new car every year
Then to buy then to convince the bottom half of american
Income earners to buy one new car every five to six years
Way more money is going to be able to happening is going to be able to happen up there at the top
Then this more occasional purchase that you also have to spend years cultivating and reminding the customer
To come back to you when it's a much quicker turn up here at the top
When mercedes can create a new quarter million dollar car every year a new special edition
Um, they can do a two month two year lease a 20 month lease
Uh, you know 16 month lease get that person into that new car over and over and over again at the top
Rather than worrying about trying to keep you know, the mom pop down there at the bottom
Keep them remembering. Hey, I bought an osable last year. I bought a whatever last year
In six years when I get another car
Keep coming back to me
You know, that's that's more of a dealership engagement kind of thing in a way because
In that window your car is going to start breaking down and it's going to do whatever
And keeping that person wanting to come back is harder in a way
Then then that person is buying the new car and it's not going to have a problem in the first two years of ownership
Which is why I think truck design has somewhat gone stale
But the add-ons have absolutely exploded, right?
So we we we have locked in that four door short bed
You know, let's say let's say crew cab short bed is the answer for all trucks moving forward
That that is by and large what they're building for consumers
And we're not getting new frames with you know drastically different wheel bases unless it's an electric truck. We're not doing
You know Toyota brought in the hybrid max system
Chevy like I said is using that turbo charge for so it's not like we're seeing nothing happen in that space
But it's not the the variety that we see in in other categories and you know
F-150 has a hybrid
But you'll find nothing not not not the hybrid in the sense of that f-150 you won't find it at ram
You won't find it at Chevy. The diesels are going away. I digress there
But but you're seeing all of these of these packages
So z71 wasn't enough now. We have the zr2 which has always been around, but it's it's a totally different beast
Now we have your trx and your rho and your
rebel
And Ford's got the tremor line. We're seeing all these one offs like the lobo series
All of these are just these like ooh. What what are three things we could change lower tires exhaust?
Um
Oh my god, it's an all-new truck and it's working and Toyota
I think is is dead on because what they do is they slap a different paint on it
It's that special every new year trd color and that's going to keep people coming back and trading in a vehicle
That has not changed drastically
Now don't get me wrong. I would buy a pickup truck today if if the right one existed
supposedly Dakota's going to come back or a Dakota like thing and i'm partially intrigued. I don't know if i'm actually
Believing that it will be what I want, but if right if a mid-sized truck came back
That had full-sized truck towing capability like they used to once upon a time
Um, then that would be interesting that is that actually I should say is another interesting twist here the manufacturers know
That truck owners don't tow as much as they think they tow and they don't tow as frequently as they think they tow so
No, no uh, no mid-sized truck in america will tow as much
As a derango for instance like derango offers three engines that tow more than any mid-sized truck in america any of those three
Is are I mean it should be bizarre
But when was last time you saw at to koma with anything more than like a little teardrop camping trailer or some bikes on the thing
Or whatever they just that that owner
Likes to know that the truck can tow but they don't seem to tow as regularly as a half ton truck owner
Who who doesn't tow as often as they think either?
Which is why you can get away with a 2.7 liter turbo in a silverado 1500
When that thing is not going to be able to help you slow a trailer down at all
Um, not much better in the three liters in the ram or the twin turbos in the forward
If you're actually towing in those vehicles, you're probably going to want the v8s at any rate
um
If dakota somehow arrived as this mid-sized truck option that honestly had a tiny bed
I don't care what the bed size is is as long as
It could be it could be like a I mean heck
I could probably even live with a four foot by four foot bed as long as it was four feet wide between the wheel wells
So certain four foot things would fit
I'd actually be fine with a four foot by four foot bed
Decent back seats. You can actually stick children in car seats in the back and 9 000 pounds of towing capacity
Sign me up, baby. I'd take one tomorrow
Yeah, I mean
ironically some like the uh
And I don't know it's exact dimensions. I guess I'll look it up for my fun, but the uh, hummer h2 truck, right?
You look like that is all people
nothing about cargo
And can it tow?
Now we know the fuel economy is going to be pretty
Explorer sport track remember that
So I was I was actually gonna say the maverick is is the total reinvented opposite of the explorer sport track because that was like
Hey, it's still got a v8 in it. Uh, but it's a small truck. It's a sporty truck
Like I would be much more interested in the sport track again at least on paper and I I know someone who had one and I was like
Oh, this is kind of cool
It can still tow it can still has a bed for it. It was a lifestyle truck
It was a version of a lifestyle truck that did things
Yeah, but it wasn't a real truck the maverick is just the reinventing of that
But yeah, but also so much more efficient
So it's leaned harder into the lifestyle and not pretended to be something. It's not
I think the sport track would have sold better if they'd given it a little bit more time and some definite changes
The sport tracks bed was too small. I will say for most people
I think it would have been fine for me because it was only four feet long
So that's okay, but it was narrow. It wasn't four feet wide. So it was 41 inches wide
I just looked it up here 41 inches wide
Just over four feet long the length. I don't think was a problem
I think the the the width was a problem and then the problem
Aside from that was ford just also had the ranger. So like
but actually
In general terms, I think the sport track sold better than than some companies
Especially ford would give it credit for
We've talked about this before
Mainline car companies tend to think of anything that sells under 100,000 units as some sort of commercial failure
Whereas if you were bmw or Mercedes, you'd be like, oh my god, that is that is fantastic
They'd they'd be happy with 10,000 units, right? You know, so
I actually think that that they should have given it another another go only
With the the unibody explorer next because that's that's the other thing that killed the sport track was, you know, explorer went off body on frame
Yeah, and like I said, it's it's it's one of those vehicles
That was before it's time because if that came out right now
I think it would do very well because it would have the numbers that I think most people would look for it and can it tow
7,000 pounds like just somewhere in that range, right?
and and
And most people I don't think are going to look at that bed
And say I need to put sheet goods in it because most people aren't really putting sheet goods in it
And it's gonna be, you know, more interesting more comfortable, you know
Lean towards a performance or a luxury like a muscle truck vibe
Uh, yeah, I mean that'd be an interesting one bring back to explore sport track
Maybe call it something different but but make it a make it a f1 an f sport
Although of course Lexus already has that one
Now I will say I don't
I I'm probably the only person that that ends up with sheet goods in my trailer all the time
Which is why I like the trailer rather than a truck
But but but that said
It's not just the sheet goods thing though
There's so much in the u.s. That is sized
In that same way
Because of sheet goods so, you know, your kids are doing a weird project for school
So you need to go pick up a big thing a foam well like the big things a foam come in four by eights
You need some plexiglass for something four by eights, right?
Um, you got a palette of whatever because it was cheaper to buy. I don't know toilet paper by the palette
That's going to be on a palette four feet wide, etc
So there are lots of things that are sized in this 48 inch window because of
pickup trucks and because of four by eight sheet goods things like that
um
That that forefoot width I think does make sense, which is why
You know ford actually I think did a good job with the maverick
in
That they knew that a four foot wide between the wheel wells dimension wouldn't work for that truck
But they they did make it work on top of the wheel wells
but still under the sides of the bed and they made the the
The tailgate more than four feet wide so that you can still use it for four by sheet goods just not below
The wheel wells like in a in a full-size truck and I think that's designed to have that like multi-tier tailgate
It levels up to where that is exactly that flat surface
That's that's the engineering that's missing
On that's engineering. I want to see in trucks is make it
I don't just want a smaller version of a full-size
I want a more clever pickup truck and I'm gonna I'm gonna and I I'm not a pickup truck buyer
I love having a truck available, but I just can't and I but I just don't enjoy driving them
You know, I don't enjoy being the big guy on the road
Um, I don't I don't need the extra space. I want I want a miata. I want an old school Honda Civic
Right. I I like the sporty feel
But here's what I would love to see in a truck is just be more clever about it
And I and what we're running into is that these mid-sized trucks do not sell in the same volume as the full size
But that's what I want. That's the smallest truck that can do the most
Um, but that's why we don't get you know mid-sized that are really any more fuel efficient than their full-size counterparts
Because the full size get the tech right they get the
the you know the cylinder deactivation or they get the aero increases and
Give me a small truck that's just gonna blow a full size out of the park
But again, that's not gonna be great for the bottom line
And and I think making a truly sporty truck that has decent towing would be trickier in the unibody format
Because if I could have a wish list if I could somehow magically wish something for a future Dodge Dakota
This is absolutely not what's happening by the way
But if they could if they could basically take a Durango unibody re-skin it so it looked modern
Cut things off after the second row seats and it still had the Hellcat engine and the 6.4 liter hemi
And the 5.7 and they figured out a way to make a torque vectoring rear axle handle 700 pound feet of torque
That would be that would be bonkers fun
I mean it could be a truly sport truck with a tiny little bit in the back
That could still tow but they're not going to do that because making
Making a truck unibody a unibody truck vehicle like that
That still has high payload and high towing capability is very difficult structurally
And it can be very heavy, which is what we see in GM's unibody electric trucks. They can do it
but but
they're definitely heavy on the back because of
The the box part of the suv is actually really a very critical structural component
That helps the Durango get to that that nearly 9 000 pounds of towing capability without a frame
That said though, I think that I think that they could still do it with the Dakota
If they actually wanted to and created this from the ground up
You know, they're they could design a Dakota to say have an independent rear suspension
And that would be all kinds of fun in a mid-sized truck. We don't have one of those right now
They could borrow a suspension design from Grand Wagoneer Wagoneer and have this independent suspension
You know all-wheel drive thing grab the the torque splitting center differential
unit from the trailhawk
And track hawk and jam it in there like we find in the Durango SRT is for instance that that variable torque split device
So you can have a strong rear power bias still and full-time all-wheel drive. That'd be so cool
We're not gonna get it
No, and and I'm thinking, you know, what's next in the world of truck
Obviously ev trucks have been a thing
There are no plug-in hybrid trucks of any variety and there have never been in the us to to my knowledge
You know not one that's not home brewed
but
But if we look at what the maverick did it really did push current truck boundaries
We're not talking about wild engineering boundaries, but the current world of truck
And I think the last truck that was really
Innovative or challenging. Let's talk about mainstream not like the Hummer truck, right? Something not not that direction
Um was the Jeep Gladiator
And that was hey, it's the Jeep at the bed. It's got the tops that come off
It's a commands sheet
It comes out. It's got a manual transmission
But it had the things you need it was a reasonable size bed
And it has enough room for your passengers and that's what people are looking for
So are we are we really holding out that?
I think I think you're dead on if ram comes out with a ram dakota first. Well, that'll feel a little bit weird, but that's fine
um
What if they call the ram dodge dakota that'd be even more interesting
But it does it does kind of be yeah, it does kind of sound like like ram's gonna get jammed back into dodge here soon
That's the lots of rumors swirling around that
Honestly, it makes the most sense to me, but uh, especially because how much they're using srt
But I'll digress on that one
If they if they built the dakota with the intent to put a big engine in it
Which is what dodge and ram and everything in slantus in the u.s. Is wanting to do is bring the hemi back bring back power
Especially under current regs if it's designed to have the big engine
Design it to split and do a heavy duty and a sport and forget every other version
Out there and and that would that would push the market because nobody is building
Either of those in that mid-sized truck segment and if that's how it's that's how it's geared and this is you know
The percentage of truck buyers it's male, right? That's by and large
So if this is this is the man's mid-size then it's the man's sport truck
It's the man's heavy duty truck and and it could it could take over not immediately
But it would push innovation. So are we waiting on the dakota to change the the mid-sized truck market?
Um, that feels that feels a little bit strange or they just
I'm gonna I'm gonna bet that it won't because I'm thinking it's probably gonna be too expensive somehow
That's been stilantis's main problem lately is too expensive
I think gladiator could have been and still could be actually a really good hit
If it was at least $10,000 less expensive. It's just too expensive then sales price or msrp
Both both like if actual actual transaction price
And msrp were both at least $10,000 less and mind you I mean it's already getting 10
You know 10 off 11 off discount generally speaking, but
But I think the problem in a way with that would have been
How do they in all conscience maintain wrangler pricing?
If gladiator, which is wrangler with the bed is less than wrangler. That's that's kind of problematic
You can't but but it I I think it should have been I think it should be
Less expensive because the customer is different. I think enough
That that it's a it's a hard sell to get a tokoma shopper
And that's really kind of where they were going initially was you know the tokoma person that love to modify their truck
That's the target customer jeep was after with gladiator and they did it. I mean gladiator sells
Relatively well for such a high price
And it is such a unique truck
You know if you want a truck with the removable doors and the roof and the glass and everything
And you want and you want you know lockers everywhere
And you want all all the the the jeep top and rubicon fittings
That's the only game in town. You won't find that kind of
Of feature set in anything else
And I I mentioned I'm not actually a truck shopper
But I still think they're cool and neat and and I love having mine and I love the usefulness that I find reasons to get out of it
I was
And and you know this I was holding my breath for a gladiator 4 by e
Because I went oh my god
This is the truck that covers all of these bases and it was supposed to be right about the time they had that like
That pink hue to it and I went pink with the blue accents
Why not get the wildest little truck out?
You know little right but the wildest truck out here and it just never came to fruition
but I I think where I want to kind of close out on this is that
um
I I have no problem with trucks as they exist
I wish we could be a little bit more honest in this in this ether about what people are using their trucks for
Because if you just say I like having a truck
I could understand that. Yeah, right totally get it
What I would love to see more of is any sort of push towards that old Tacoma that
You know that old Toyota that old Nissan
These small pickups that you could say
I like having a truck and it does lots of truck things without being every truck thing
and
And then if you needed a big truck for some reason
Go rent one because I don't know if you know this you can rent lots of trucks
And then you're not worried about damaging that nearly as much as your own
And even just the fuel costs if I bought a four maverick hybrid today
And I only pulled my truck out every once in a while
Instead of that being a daily driver
I would save so much money and then go rent whatever heavy duty I needed
Even if I had a trailer and I went on two camping trips a year
I think it makes all the sense of the world to rent that heavy duty truck to go on your camping trip rather than
Oh my gosh, I need a truck that I drive every day to do this one thing
every once in a while
With that out of the way our next topic has to be the Montana loophole
I've received a number of questions and emails about this interestingly
So let's talk about first what it is
And why it appears to be closing at least some places here
So the first thing is traction as much as it might sound like it
So the Montana loophole basically is if you're rich and you're going to buy your new Lamborghini in california
Where we have sales tax and where the registration fees can be high
You go. Well, hey, I'm going to go and create a new LLC in Montana
And then I'm going to register my car in Montana and get Montana plates on it
Because then I don't have to pay these extra taxes, etc. And you know, I'll just drive around with Montana plates
Sounds fun, right? It's the win-win situation if
You sign the paperwork. I mean worst-case scenario you might have to do some sort of it's transferred or transported somewhere and transported back
But that's still going to save you a ton of money
Except that it's against the law
Oh
In uh, and I believe actually all 49 other states do not like this
Montana is a popular location
Although you can create your LLC in Delaware if you wanted to but Montana is a popular place because they don't require any beneficial owner
Registration so you can have an anonymous LLC
um
But interestingly states are starting to try and close this loophole Tennessee and Utah
Are seeming to use big data to try and find out where these people are and go after them
Um, and in some some cases apparently, uh, trying to uh, basically, you know impound the car for this
Um, and it's not a little problem. I was surprised by this number
The state of california estimates estimates that 10 000 plus cars worth over two billion dollars
Have been sold by california dealers
To montana llc's since 2022. So only in the last four years
Two billion dollars to montana llc is for delivery in california
So you go to the deal and you're like my montana llc would like to buy a lamborghini, please
Um deliver it to my home in beverly hills
That's two billion dollars
You could be taxing and it makes sense that you would want to collect on that and and it's always interesting
You know, there's a million problems in this world that we love to solve should solve
But it comes down to the dollar and if somebody is saying we want to invest dollars
In getting these dollars back, you know, they're missing out on some on some big bucks
Yeah, that's that's uh, I mean that's that's a chunk of change right there and it also
It also just gives other people a bad taste in their mouth to be honest that someone else is gaming the system
You're like, oh my next door neighbor. Look at this asshole over here. I'm paying my taxes and registration on my nissan centra
and
Probably don't have a centra the same neighborhood as lamborghini, but whatever
But this dude over here is you know
Getting his uh getting his lamborghini
Right and saving more in taxes than I paid for my nissan centra kind of kind of deal
So it does leave a bad taste in other people's mouths that the tax evasion part of this
Yeah, and then there's sort of the there's a state compliance thing that could come into play, right?
Do you need to get smog checked if it's not registered for a place that doesn't have the same
standards and
And you know, there's there's a point to registration at some point, you know, obviously that vehicle is
operated in the state and registration helps
Helps go towards and ideally uh transportation oriented projects and and systems that ultimately this vehicle ends up utilizing
So yeah, it's it's just sort of skating your way through and I'll admit I'm not a fan of finding loopholes
You know if it's a hey if you do it this way, it's easier and you're like well, how off this line am I right?
I'm not saying everything I do is always straight line
but
You know if we're starting to do this and it's not available to everyone or or obviously in this case benefits a certain group more than others
um yeah, it's bummer yeah
And uh, it is apparently closing so if you have one of those montana registered vehicles
Maybe now is the time to move it back to montana
where you yeah
Which would probably be pretty expensive because that means you have to move back to montana
Uh, but I guess I guess you'll figure you probably probably never lived in montana to begin with is the honest
No, the honest thing here. You get your p.o. Box and that's about it. It's kind of
Maybe not even a p.o. Box. You know your could be a montana registered corporation with the california address or utah address or whatever
it is interesting that this is uh
One article I read implied that this was a california problem and it does obviously
Impact california heavily because we have a lot of really wealthy people in california and california is the largest car market
so you're going to get lots of lots of uh, you know
Poor compliance and compliance issues here, but every state in the union apparently seems to be having this this drama
And uh, some states like utah, tennessee and texas are definitely going after this aggressively because they want their little piece of the pie
Oh for sure. I mean and it's all about pieces of the pie and uh, and and you know
We're not i'm not going to dive into it, but if somebody's not paying their piece somebody else is right either they are making up for someone's
Deficit or there just ends up being a deficit and that doesn't benefit anyone either in washington state
There's sales tax in oregon there isn't and i know that there are a lot of people who will go to oregon for big purchases
Or you know if they're right on the border, they'll just go across the bridge to go shopping
Um for their groceries because it ends up being you know less expensive
But if you're buying a vehicle can't get away with it in oregon because because that's a big enough thing that's easily traceable
So people if you're going to drive it home looking by a car
Yeah, it's got to get registered in washington and you got to pay the sales tax either when you get there or in advance
Yeah, or you got to find a relative and in oregon and use that address somehow and then lie and claim that you know
Oh, I live in oregon really or the vehicle was gifted or some sort of yeah
I mean it's it's a whole thing and and for me not worth it
But again, we're talking about big dollar sums and people will try to find their way around it
And the problem is trickier in big states like texas and california
It's a lot harder to get away with some of those shenanigans because if you live on the border of
Oregon and washington
You could you could drive with your oregon or washington license plate on there and probably not get noticed because there's a
There's there more more out-of-state license plates around
But by the time you get to the middle of california or the middle of texas
There's not a lot of other license plates around compared to the states in texas the plates in
Because it's so far to exit like if you're if you're in in corpus christi
I mean the exits out of texas are a real long way away
You don't see a lot of other plates even to houston austin etc. It's a long way to get out of the place
If you're in the middle
No, I
Again, it's all about finding these loopholes and there are lots of them out there
Um, what's that saying? You know, you want uh, you want the most conservative tax person
You can find in the world, right?
And that's that's where a lot of these things come from but
If you find a loophole, the you know, if someone's gonna find it the question is how do you fix it?
yep
And uh with that out of the way, let's dive very quickly through the last
question that we had here
We'll only have a few minutes here left in the episode
But there was a question about fuel. Sorry a horsepower changes over time
And why did horsepower numbers drop so much in the 70s and 80s, right?
Yeah, I mean, so it's it's the question of uh, I mean again, I'm a little bit disappointed looking at my truck going
How do I have a 5.7 liter engine making 200 horsepower?
But there was it was a moment where you know a performance car a Mustang a corvette
Again, we're talking a modern american performance car went from 300 horsepower to 150 and uh
That can't just I mean, that's that's not good for business. But what happened?
Yeah, so the big thing to remember was there were two two
compounding factors in the 70s primarily where a lot of this went down
um, california in 1972
Decided that for car sales and advertising purposes manufacturers had to use SAE net
To advertise horsepower and measure it not SAE gross
So
Previously all these high horsepower cars 50s 60s and and early 70s
Those high horsepower numbers weren't real in the way that we would consider them today because they were done on a test stand
You know with specialty fuels no accessories. So no alternator. No air conditioning. No belts. No exhaust. Just like
What could this block do that's SAE?
Basically raw raw power
You add all those on to there and you get some pretty decent discounts
So for instance the 1971 chrysler hemi the 426
went from
4 to 25 horsepower in most of the vehicles down to about 375
In 1972 in california because of this then we got the the california emissions rules and catalytic converters which changed things further
So by 1976 the 426 hemi was dead because of emissions rules and catalytic converter requirements
So catalytic converters could could at the time reduce performance by somewhere around
20 horsepower maybe 30 horsepower depending on the design
Early catalytic converters the manufacturers didn't always know what they were doing
They were slapped on without really a lot of thought about them and it took a while for the industry just to create better designs
The last thing I would say especially with like the 1980s engines
There were the emissions compliance questions the smog
You know requirement problems to to deal with which caused reductions in california compliant vehicles and states that followed along
But then also we just had poor engineering technology. I mean we still had
carburetors and and
You know single point injection systems not multi-point injection systems let alone direct injection
We had relatively low compression engine designs
And all that just breeds lots of inefficiency not only lower horsepower per liter, but also, you know, lots of gas consumed per mile
Right and like I said, it's it's the base technologies and then it's the
Then it's the additional right so my and it's not and not apples to apples
But my truck gets 15 miles per gallon something like that
But it's part of the reason because it has nothing anywhere near a cylinder deactivation or an active aero flap or any of these things
Where we've really said, hey, we've we've streamlined
We've we've dialed in a lot of the efficiency we can get out of an engine
And then what are these additional technologies that we're applying to increase that outside of just
the the heart of the of the thing
And also a lot of those older engine designs, especially your generation of truck
Weren't designed to rev terribly high
So they were focusing more on low-end torque because they assumed that you were towing
Was back in that era where people were like, hey, they're buying a truck. They must tow or haul some stuff
So the engine was was designed more for low-end torque
They didn't rev as high
The way you increase horsepower by and large is you have that puppy rev up higher for a similar engine design the faster
You rev the more horsepower you can you can get out of the engine
Um, you know back in the era that's like Honda s2000 and it's astronomical red line. That was that was
Yeah, they're like we need more power or horsepower
Um, and there's there's a trade-off for torque because torque starts to fall off at that point. Um,
But it is worth comparison. I mean, it's like your truck versus like my derango
475 horsepower at a 6.4 liters and you know
16 17 miles per gallon if you treat it nicely
Yeah, things have definitely mine's baby
Yeah, if I baby it I could get higher
But materials technologies also just significantly improved not just the the actual
Steel because I mean so we still build engines out of cast iron and steel liners, etc
It's it's the ability to get
repeatable consistent qualities of steel with very
regular grain structures
So a lot of people don't realize steel is a crystalline structure
So if you etch steel for instance, you can you can actually see the crystals
That make up the steel the cast iron, etc. It's actually really quite beautiful
If you haven't looked at it google it as you're watching the episode
um, but
Metal metal crystalline structures are really quite pretty when when etched and under the right kinds of microscopy, but
Getting consistent crystal structures was harder and less understood in you know decades past and now it's easier and we understand it better
So creating better surfaces that are are more durable
Really dialing in the precision manufacturing has become a lot less expensive and easier
And that's how we have engines with higher compression rates and lower tolerances and lighter weight oils
Are able to be used so you could just squeeze every bit of power out of even naturally aspirated engines without
Without worrying about emissions compliance because not only is is you know a modern hemi
And I use that in air quotes because you know still still talking about a push rotted cast iron
But I mean it's the design is not that old really and it does have a lot of fuel saving tech on it
You know two spark plugs per cylinder
um
More advanced fuel injection technology, etc
Tire tolerance and all of that right not only does it make more power and get better fuel economy
It produces an awful lot less smog
Producing emissions than an older engine design did so it's you know, we we just live in a better place
yeah, and and
All of that is still part of the reason that things cost a little bit more because it is all these technologies
I I don't I'm not gonna circle all the way back
But there was one thing I looked up and it was what is the cost of my like
How does my truck translate to today's prices?
And honestly, it's really close because I think my truck came in around
$26,000 and that puts it in the high 50s
I think is is where it ends up, you know at that crossover point mid to high 50s for inflation
and I can build
A full-sized truck my current equivalent
with with basically the well certainly more than the technology I had at base level
And the only reason it gets more expensive is if I start doing very different engines
If I start throwing on a bunch of packages and things that just didn't exist
So there is still a world we see this a lot
In our when we review the Tacoma people said where is my cheap Tacoma? Where is my two-door?
standard cab
There is still a lot available now
But we just tend to want more and we want we want that tech and yeah
It gets as farther faster cheaper, but it costs a little bit more upfront
and I would say
Toyota would make more if they could make they would make that if they could make money on it
and making a truck
For any new vehicle for that that bottom 50th percentile
American family income just is not it's not as profitable as building something for that that
You know top 5% top 1% shopper
That's that goes back to that original problem, you know
Car companies could definitely make a very basic truck that could be less expensive. They could give it to you elsewhere
Yeah, they could give it an analog speedometer and no radio and a manual transmission and two-wheel drive and
Some leaf springs all the way around and no power windows no power door locks, etc
It wouldn't be as much cheaper as you think first and second
Who's going to buy it because since it's not going to be as much cheaper as you think
And all the other living costs are impacting so many working families
It's not like they're going to suddenly run out and buy that truck
You know family of two working working just above minimum wage even working double minimum wage
Are they going to go out and buy that new truck? I don't think so
No, can't imagine they do
Anyway, hopefully you are in a better position out there listener and we will see all of you next week
See you later
You
About this episode
Pickup trucks, EV lease buyouts, and the “Montana loophole” collide in a wide-ranging discussion. A listener asks if they can avoid an EV lease buyout by negotiating a dealer “drop-off” then repurchasing for market value—hosts explain it’s possible but uncertain, with fees, paperwork, and auction-based valuation. Another debate weighs keeping a 10-year Tesla Model S with free Supercharging versus switching to a newer EV. The truck segment turns into a deep dive on why trucks got bigger, more luxurious, and more profitable, plus who actually uses them. Finally, the Montana LLC tax/registration workaround is outlined as states crack down, followed by a quick history of why horsepower ratings fell in the 70s/80s.
In this episode: 🚛 Pickup Trucks: How Did We Get Here? — Why trucks went from work vehicles to $80,000 lifestyle statements, how the F-150 grew by nearly 3 feet since 1964, and why CAFE regulations accidentally made trucks bigger.
🔋 EV Lease Buyout Strategy — AJ from San Diego is staring down a $5,000 gap between his lease payoff and market value. We break down his real options, what dealers can (and can't) do, and why the leasing company may send the car to auction anyway.
🚘 Should Mark Ditch His 2016 Tesla Model S? — With 82K miles, $5K already spent on repairs, and the free Supercharging perk on the line, is it time to move on? We crunch the numbers and recommend some underrated alternatives — including Cadillac's surprisingly strong EV lineup.
📋 The Montana LLC Loophole — Explained — How wealthy buyers have been using Montana shell companies to dodge state sales tax and registration fees, why California alone estimates $2 billion in lost revenue since 2022, and why states like Utah, Tennessee, and Texas are now cracking down.
⚡ Why Did Horsepower Plummet in the '70s and '80s? — The real story behind the muscle car era's sudden power collapse: SAE net vs. gross ratings, catalytic converters, early emissions regulations, and why a 426 Hemi went from 425hp to basically dead in a few short years.
