“Trimming their lineup” just means Porsche is planning to sell fewer different models. In this case, they’re talking about removing at least the Taycan from the lineup.
The Porsche Taycan is Porsche’s electric car. The hosts are saying Porsche may remove it from the lineup, so it might not be sold anymore (or not as widely).
Your car’s “drive train” is everything that sends engine power to the wheels. Here, they’re saying the Coupe uses the same basic power-delivery setup as the regular model, just with a different body.
The Porsche 718 Cayman is Porsche’s mid-engine sports coupe. The hosts are talking about whether Porsche will keep it in the lineup, which is important because it’s one of Porsche’s main “enthusiast” models.
Targa is Porsche’s “open-air but still protected” roof style. It usually lets you remove part of the roof to feel more like a convertible, but it keeps a strong safety structure around you.
The Porsche 718 Boxster is a Porsche roadster with the engine mounted behind you (mid-engine). It’s built to feel sharp and balanced when you drive it, and it’s part of Porsche’s 718 model line.
The 911 is Porsche’s most famous model line. Here, the host is saying Porsche may be trying to steer people toward the 911 when other special versions aren’t available, but that could make some buyers leave the brand.
The GT3 is Porsche’s track-focused 911. The host is saying that when certain other Porsche track models aren’t available, buyers end up choosing GT3 instead.
Lotus is a sports-car brand that’s famous for making cars that feel light and nimble. The point here is that some Porsche buyers might switch to a different brand like Lotus if Porsche can’t satisfy their specific model preferences.
Term
DIA
“DIA” sounds like an acronym for a specific Porsche-related community or culture. The host is basically saying that some people won’t switch brands easily because they’re part of that scene.
The BMW M6 is a performance BMW model that’s larger than some other M cars. It’s meant to be quick and sporty, but in a bigger body style. The podcast mentions it while talking about which M models BMW had at the time.
The BMW M5 is a high-performance version of a BMW sedan. It’s designed to be quick and sporty while still having normal car practicality like four doors. The podcast mentions it when listing which performance models BMW made.
The Mercedes-AMG E63 is a fast version of the Mercedes E-Class made by AMG. It’s the kind of car people call a “super sedan” because it’s both comfortable and very quick.
The BMW 6 Series is a BMW model line that usually comes as a larger, more upscale coupe or convertible. The podcast mentions it when talking about performance versions and what was available. It’s basically the “bigger BMW” category they’re referring to.
The Mercedes-Benz E55 AMG is a faster, sportier version of the Mercedes E-Class. It’s made by AMG, which is Mercedes’ performance division. The podcast brings it up while listing which performance sedans were around.
Car
SL55
The SL55 is a fast AMG version of Mercedes’ SL roadster. It’s meant for people who want a two-door luxury sports car that’s also very quick.
“Autobahn bomber” means a car that’s meant to go very fast on highways, especially long straight stretches. It’s usually more about stability and power than tight handling.
“M” is BMW’s performance sub-brand (BMW M), and “M coupe” refers to a BMW M-branded two-door coupe model. The host is listing BMW’s M models as examples of the division being serious about cars rather than just selling volume.
The MGF is a small sports car made by MG. The podcast mentions it as part of MG’s effort to make more serious sports cars, including roadster and coupe-style versions. It’s basically a model from MG’s sports-car lineup.
The BMW E46 M3 is a famous BMW performance car from the late 1990s/early 2000s. The point here is that lots of them were made, so they were easier to find and buy than some other special models.
The BMW 3 Series is a common BMW model line that people buy as a regular car, not just a sports car. Over the years, BMW also made performance versions of it. The podcast mentions it because the performance versions—like the E46 M3—were made in very large numbers.
A “gap car” is a model that sits between cheaper and more expensive cars. It helps people move up gradually instead of jumping straight to the top model.
The Cayman S is a Porsche sports car that’s usually less expensive than a 911. The point here is that Porsche wants you to start with a Cayman S and then upgrade later to a 911.
Resale value is what your car is worth when you sell it. If it holds value well, it’s easier to trade it in later and move to a more expensive Porsche.
Concept
work their way up the ladder
This is the idea that you start with a cheaper Porsche first, then later upgrade to a more expensive one. The hosts are describing it like a step-by-step path through the lineup.
The Porsche Cayenne is Porsche’s SUV. It’s a practical daily driver, but it’s still meant to feel fun to drive—so the host is saying it can be a first step before moving to more hardcore Porsche cars.
The Porsche Panamera is Porsche’s four-door performance sedan. The host brings it up to make a point: some people brag about owning a Porsche model, but they may not actually be into the brand the way enthusiasts are.
Concept
soul of the company
The host is talking about what makes a brand feel special to real fans—like the racing heritage and the enthusiast culture. Their argument is that some people just own the car, but don’t really connect with what the brand stands for.
A hybrid system is a setup that uses both a gas engine and an electric motor. The idea is to get better efficiency and sometimes extra punch, and the host is saying Porsche’s approach has roots in earlier hybrid work.
Car
Lamborghini Huracán
The Lamborghini Huracán is Lamborghini’s more accessible supercar compared to their most extreme models. The hosts are using it as the comparison point for where Porsche’s RS cars sit in the lineup.
The Lamborghini Huracan is a Lamborghini sports car. The podcast mentions it while talking about different high-performance versions and comparisons. It’s brought up because it’s one of Lamborghini’s main performance models.
The Porsche 911 GT2 RS is one of the most extreme versions of the 911. In the conversation, it’s used to mean the top, most hardcore option—basically not the one most people are shopping for.
PTS is Porsche’s special custom paint option. The host is saying some people want it mainly for the look and bragging rights, not because it changes the driving feel.
The Lamborghini Gallardo is a Lamborghini sports car. In the podcast, it’s described as a more accessible model that helped the company sell more cars. That’s why it comes up as an important turning point.
Term
first to market
“First to market” just means being the first company to sell something new. With cars, being first can be risky if the technology isn’t fully sorted yet.
The Nürburgring is a well-known race track in Germany that car companies use to compare how fast their cars are. “Fastest time” means they’re trying to set the quickest lap.
“24 hour endurance” is racing for a full day to see if the car can keep going without breaking. It tests reliability and how well the car handles long, hard use.
“Allocations” means the limited number of cars the company is willing to sell to each dealer or customer. If a model is hard to get, you may need to buy something else first to be considered. That’s why the hosts talk about it like a controlled process.
Concept
strong arming your clients
“Strong arming your clients” is a metaphor for using pressure tactics to steer buyers toward certain purchases. In this context, the hosts argue that Porsche is pressuring “loyal clients” to buy a specific high-demand model or trim in order to secure allocations for other cars. It’s not a technical automotive term, but it describes a sales practice related to allocation control.
The Porsche Macan is a smaller Porsche SUV with a focus on sporty driving. It’s not a sports car like a 911, but it’s meant to feel more performance-oriented than a typical SUV. The podcast mentions it because it keeps coming up in their discussion.
The Porsche Boxster is a mid-engine roadster built around a compact, sporty driving feel. Here it’s mentioned as a prior ownership reference, contrasting with the speaker’s lack of ownership of the Macan and Boxster specifically.
Goodwood Festival of Speed is a big car event in the UK. Cars and drivers show off on a hill-climb course, and it’s also a place where manufacturers reveal new models.
A hill climb event is a race where cars go up a steep course as fast as they can. Drivers are timed, and handling and grip are especially important because the road is challenging.
“Pike speak” sounds like “Pikes Peak,” a famous mountain in Colorado. There’s a well-known hill climb race there, so it makes sense they’d mention it as a US option.
“Corkscrew” is the name of a well-known twisty section on a race track. It’s the kind of corner sequence that’s hard to get right and can strongly affect how fast a car can go through the lap.
A “flint wall” is a wall/barrier made from a particular material. On a race track, the kind of barrier and where it’s placed can affect how drivers brake and turn because it changes the environment around the track.
Willow Springs is a race track in California where people go to drive and race cars. The hosts are debating whether it makes sense to turn it into a bigger event destination, since it’s in a pretty remote desert area.
PDK is Porsche’s special automatic transmission. It shifts very fast because it’s designed to switch gears quickly. The hosts mention it while talking about whether people would pay a lot for an older Porsche.
Naturally aspirated means the engine isn’t boosted by a turbo or supercharger. It breathes on its own, which often makes the power delivery feel smoother and more direct. They mention it to describe the specific Porsche they’re using as a benchmark.
A “flat six” is an engine where the cylinders sit flat, in two sides. Porsche uses this layout in the 911, and it helps give the car its classic character.
Weight matters because it affects how fast a car can accelerate and how it feels in corners. They’re saying the car isn’t light, but it’s still got enough power to feel solid.
The Honda S2000 is a small two-seat sports car. It’s known for an engine that revs very high and makes the car feel lively. The podcast mentions it because it’s often considered one of the best choices in its class.
Engine placement means where the engine is located in the car. That location changes how the car feels when you turn and accelerate, because it shifts where the weight sits.
An inline four is an engine with four cylinders lined up in a row. It’s a basic engine layout, and here it’s being used to compare against the Porsche 911’s different engine design.
A high-revving engine is designed to run at higher RPMs. The point is that it can feel lively and responsive as you rev it out, even if it doesn’t make the same peak power.
50-50 weight distribution means the car has about equal weight on the front and back wheels. That balance can help the car handle more predictably when you steer.
“Gutless down low” means the car feels weak when you’re driving at low RPMs. It may not pull hard until you rev it higher.
Term
AP1, AP2
AP1 and AP2 are shorthand fans use for two different generations of the Honda S2000. They help people talk about which version they mean, since the car changed over time.
“Collector grade” means the car is in top condition and cared for like a collectible. Those cars usually cost more than a normal “daily driver” example.
A convertible is a car where the roof can fold down so you can drive with open air. It usually has extra parts compared to a normal roof, and that can matter for maintenance.
“Shifter feel” is how the gear lever feels when you move it—how smooth it is, how much effort it takes, and how accurately it lands in gear. Better shifter feel usually makes driving more satisfying.
“Engine issues” means problems that can happen inside the engine, like it running poorly or needing repairs sooner than expected. The point here is that maintenance matters a lot to avoid those problems.
A Garrett turbo is a performance part that forces more air into the engine. A “bigger” one usually makes more power, but it can feel different because it may take longer to build boost.
“OEM plus” means modifying a car but keeping it feeling like a well-sorted factory car. The goal is usually better performance without going overboard.
The Honda NSX is a sports car made by Honda. It’s known for having the engine in the middle of the car. The podcast mentions it because there were times when it wasn’t being produced while other models were.
“Manual only” means the car comes with a stick shift and not an automatic. That makes shopping easier because you don’t have to compare different transmission options.
Term
AP one
AP1 and AP2 are shorthand used by S2000 fans to mean different versions/years of the car. The host is saying there are differences, but one of them is generally the safer bet.
Term
AP two
AP2 is the label people use for the later version of the S2000. The host mentions it because different versions can feel or behave a bit differently, so buyers should know which one they’re getting.
“Clapped out” is enthusiast slang meaning a car is worn out, neglected, and often mechanically or cosmetically degraded. The host uses it as a warning to avoid buying an S2000 that’s been abused or poorly maintained.
“Hot boyed out” is slang for a car that’s been modified a lot, usually for looks or hype. The host’s point is that those cars can be less reliable or less well cared for than a stock or properly maintained one.
Depreciation is how the value of a car goes down as it gets older. The host is saying some Porsches have already “lost most of their value,” so they may hold money better than you’d expect.
The crankshaft is a key moving part inside the engine. The host is warning that some early versions of this car had engine problems tied to the crankshaft, so you should avoid the earliest years.
This is a type of V8 engine where the crankshaft is shaped in a way that helps the engine rev quickly and smoothly. In simple terms: it’s built to feel more “high-RPM” and responsive.
The Ford Mustang is a popular American sports car. It’s known for being powerful and for having lots of different versions. The podcast mentions it because it’s a major reference point when people talk about performance cars.
A “high-revving V8” means a V8 engine that likes to spin fast. In this conversation, they’re saying that kind of engine character is special and might be hard to find again.
Concept
blip on the radar
“Blip on the radar” just means something that people notice for a short time, then forget about. Here they’re implying a car/idea might be remembered briefly, not for years.
The BMW M2 (F87) is a small, sporty BMW with a turbocharged six-cylinder engine. The host is saying it can be a cheaper way to get similar thrills without paying Porsche prices.
That means the engine has six cylinders in a line, and it uses a turbocharger to make more power. Turbos help the engine feel stronger, especially when you accelerate.
A “chill tune” is a software update for the engine that adds some power but keeps things gentle. It’s meant to feel smooth day-to-day rather than harsh or extreme.
Curb weight is basically how much the car weighs when it’s ready to drive, without people or extra stuff. Lighter curb weight usually helps the car feel quicker.
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I'm Mike. I'm Aaron. And this is Peacart Talk.
Welcome to another episode of Peacart Talk. I'm Mike. And I'm Aaron.
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Thank you guys so so much. I didn't hear any new names on there, so clearly you guys didn't listen to the last podcast.
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Start doing and stop thinking. Alright, so let's get right into it.
Sure. You and I discussed this many times on many topics that we've discussed before on the show.
Some of this stuff comes to fruition. Some of it doesn't. A lot of it does work out.
Porsche has actually made the announcement that they are going to be trimming their lineup.
They were quoted in an article on a European article saying they were going to do so.
On the chopping block to no surprise, and I think no one will miss,
the Taycan is going to be going eventually, so that's going to be out of the trimmed market.
Makes sense, because I would say they're just going to go full EV Panamera.
Yeah, maybe. They didn't say what the action was. They said that's what they were trimming.
And also to preface, no dates were given for any of this as well.
It was just saying this is what we're looking at trimming.
They're just throwing it out there. What do you guys think about not having this?
The gauge reaction?
So Taycan's one. I'm not shocked by that one at all.
Cayenne Coupe, a little surprising. I figured they sell quite a few of those.
But again, it's its own mini line within the line.
Yeah, exactly. It has to have a whole other shell to do its thing.
So drive train, all that stuff's the same, but another body mold.
So that one, a little surprising, because I would say that they sold,
I wouldn't say quite a few of those, but those were better sellers than probably Taycan's.
So next on the big one, 718 Boxter and 718 Cayman.
Officially.
Well, they didn't give a date. They're just saying they were probably not coming back.
You brought that up about them probably not bringing those back.
Again, they were quoted on saying this, so this isn't hypothetical.
But as we know, anything can change like the weather.
They can say all of this and still do whatever they want. We all know that.
But it goes in line with them losing money and then trying to streamline things.
So some of this will probably stick. Will all of it stick? I don't know.
And then the final one, which makes total sense.
And we've been griping about this for the longest time.
9-11.
Well, they're going to trim some of the lines out of it.
They're going to take some of it. They didn't say which models are coming out,
but they were going to say they're not going to have every variant of 9-11 that they used to have.
I immediately started thinking like Targa.
Targa is probably gone.
Think about low sales. Yeah.
That's a low sale car.
Probably cost them quite a bit to actually make it because it's very different than the other 9-11.
Controversial. What do you think about GTS?
I think GTS will stay.
I still think the S will stay. I think the base will stay.
Do you think they get rid of?
They already got rid of the turbo model.
So it's turbo S only. There is no turbo.
So that's gone.
That's what I was kind of thinking about with the Carrera S is just to have a Carrera S
and not have a base.
It could go that way.
Because there was the manual versus no manual.
So why just get rid of that?
It's possible, especially since they're trying to funnel people into more money.
Then maybe you have Ss.
So you have a Carrera S, GTS.
Turbo S.
Turbo S.
GT car.
Yeah.
That's probably good.
And then obviously convertibles of those variants because that's not that much of a difference for them.
Again, they didn't say what model lines were out.
They gave high level on 718 Boxster and Cayman since those are out of production already.
They didn't specifically say and we can just go ahead and assume those platforms are gone
and maybe just not coming back at all.
We were hoping they would, you know, on prior podcast talking about it,
but you did break up the good point of, especially with them struggling,
maybe those cars never come back.
At least for the immediate future, not like indefinitely,
but probably until they start printing money again.
New year, new time, new model, and then bring them back.
Let it sleep for a while.
Maybe another four or five years, let it sleep,
and then secretly be working on something and hit everybody back with like,
haha, here it's back.
I'm of all of these, I'm not that shocked by,
but the biggest one I am still shocked by is the 718 Boxster and the 718 Cayman.
Them not going to bring back that car is,
I still am not a believer yet.
I mean, a few years will have to pass and I think secretly I'll still wait.
I mean, it's going to be a significant amount of years for me to be like,
all right, I think it's not coming back.
Probably like three or four years.
Like a full cycle or half cycle.
I mean, I'm like that boyfriend that's in denial.
She'll be back.
She's going to come back.
Like you're two years in, she's like, has she called you at all?
You're like, no, not at all.
She's just kind of figuring things out, but she's going to come back.
She's just, she's dating a bunch of douchebags right now.
She's feeling it now.
It's going to be really bad.
She's going to see how good she had it.
She'll be back.
And then, you know, five years on, hey, is she coming back?
You're like, hey, man, that's a sore topic.
You know, let's not talk about that.
Still hold up.
I guess she moved on.
Yeah.
What, what tips you off?
She got married and had kids.
You're like, no, but.
This placeholder.
She's coming back.
She knows that I don't want kids.
So she just wants to knock that out of the way for she comes back.
That's all it is.
But yeah, I am actually thoroughly shocked that they, they made this announcement
on those two cars because again, we all know you don't have to,
they don't have to follow their word.
But the fact that they had this conversation with a pretty big automotive journal outlet
in Europe, you think you would have, I guess I'm trying to play devil's advocate with
it and not read too far into it.
You just think you make more money on the lower cost stuff than you would.
So I guess maybe I need to be more okay with it because the fact that they verbalized
it and they knew it was a press junket and it was going to come out and they were going
to be quoted on it, I guess they were comfortable saying that because they are confident that
car is not coming back instead of just trying to bamboozle everybody because if they weren't
sure, they probably wouldn't have said that.
If they weren't allowed to say they wouldn't have said that sort of thing because they
haven't really been saying that everybody just been tea leaving it and then thinking
and then the more and more numbers we've seen.
Yeah, and they're about to go through a massive layoff situation and so a couple other Vag
companies are too.
So there could be that.
Maybe it's their way to justify their work to the workforce to say, hey, we're not going
to be making these cars either.
So we're cutting back our employees.
Thank you for your serious things.
Like we don't have this line, line.
So we don't need X amount.
Yes.
So but again, just like every company, those same people might have to go somewhere for
a few years and then, oh, hey, now we need to hire 5,000 employees because now we're
spinning this back up and now the economy is doing well and people want this car and
people are asking for it and we're building it.
So maybe in secret, they're trying to shrink down to build more demand, I guess, in a way.
Although I don't ever think there was a low demand for those cars because I always, from
every Q report that they would post, those always did really well.
Even all the way up until they cut them off, they were still doing pretty well.
But it doesn't mean their margin was good on those cars though.
That's true.
But at the end of the day, its units move though.
That's on them if they're not budgeting properly.
Like as a consumer, we're seeing the end result as units move.
So if it's costing them a lot, I get that part.
But then could they move it up to where they were making the money they wanted to make
out of it without it being a weird position with now the 9-11, about the same cost, that sort of thing?
I think them trying to hurt everybody into a smaller pen is going to backfire.
That's just my thought process.
I think it's not going to work out well because I feel like already, prior to the, let's just rewind
three years, that way everything is in production.
That way we don't have to argue, oh, now it's out of production.
Back when they were still everything on the board, we were talking about Caymans.
Even GT4s are being made.
GT4 RSs are being made.
Everything's being made.
I don't think they had a shortage of consumers purchasing high-level cars from them.
However, if you don't have the initial platform, how the hell are you going to sell the high grade of that car?
Yeah, you don't.
You feel like they're losing their funnel.
Yeah, so they're trying to funnel people that maybe will die hard into that stuff because let's be real.
GT4s and 4 RSs aren't super cheap cars and they weren't just sitting around on lots like,
oh my god, nobody wants these.
We can't move these.
That doesn't happen or wasn't happening.
They barely made for 10 years.
I didn't think about that.
If you're not selling, you don't necessarily have to have a base, but if you don't even sell the chassis anymore,
so you want to funnel all those people into a 911, so you're telling me the guy used to be really jazzed up about a GT4 or 4 RS.
His only option now is 3 RS or GT3.
That person's probably just going to take their money and go somewhere else.
They're not going to just go, okay, sure, I'll do whatever you want me to and I'll spend my 250 here even to compete with all of the other people that you've herded into the same pen.
Just go buy a Lotus or something else like that.
They think they're going to gain more customers that way.
I think they'll lose more customers this way.
Well, they have a DIA.
I mean, that's a DIA art subculture for a lot of people that they're not going to move off of trading to a different brand.
Well, they're hoping, they're banking on that.
I think it's a big risk to be honest with you because let's be real, there's a lot of companies making a lot of cars.
Back in the day when there was only a handful of enthusiast cars to go out there and get to go after,
and we're not going to have to talk about, oh, back in my day in 1980 or 1990.
It's not like that.
I'm talking about early 2000s.
Still 20 years ago.
Yeah, but I'm saying it was still modern era cars.
There weren't that many sports cars.
There wasn't that many affordable, like we have M3s that were around.
There was no monster variant.
There wasn't like a, oh, we got an M6.
We've got an M, you know, we had an M3 and an M5.
We didn't have an M8.
We didn't have any of that M4.
We didn't have an M2.
We didn't have any of that stuff.
So those companies and then BMW at that time was making their M division was actually making great stuff.
They weren't slapping the M badge on everything.
Okay, so that's BMW.
Okay, great.
So then AMG, same situation.
All right, we got an E63 AMG or E55.
I guess it would have been at that time.
Super sedan.
They're making an SL55 if you need a two door variant.
They didn't have a ton of their AMG departments.
Similar thing.
I mean, there was a couple other AMG variants as well.
They're in there, but there was some flavor for the people that wanted that high level stuff.
Okay, so let's talk about Porsche at that time.
GT3 wasn't even their halo car.
That was their track focused drive.
They were trying to convince people.
So at that time, turbo was the big dog.
So if you wanted a Porsche turbo, you went and bought a turbo or you could get a 911, which was still a enthusiast car.
So you're looking at these cars.
Okay, so at that time, what does Audi provide?
S5, I think around that time.
Junk, like if we're being honest, they're much better now.
It's just like the Mercedes where it's not really sporty, but not really.
Yeah, more of a Autobahn bomber, highway cruiser, big power, heavy cars, not really nimble, not known for that.
You know, and it sucks because the reason why I'm bringing up M stuff is you'll see later in the show.
But that was when they just did wild stuff, right?
They did an M coupe.
They did an M Roadster.
Their end division was serious about cars as opposed to worried about moving units, right?
They were like, hey, we're the ultimate driving machine, right?
I don't know if that still holds.
They make fast cars.
But my point about all of this, where I packaged this up, is those cars did well.
And they made lots of them, the E46 M3s.
I mean, like, thousands and of them, right?
And there was no shortage of them.
However, they still sold a lot of the three series.
They sold even more of those, right?
Yes, because of that.
But the difference is that those cars were a lot more affordable.
So when you shrink your brand like Porsche, let's just paint on saying, OK, Carrera S is now entry level.
So you're telling me entry level now is like 155 or 160 with no options?
I still, I mean, maybe that's the case.
Maybe they, I mean, with this, they make a base that's way cheaper, like a 912, like we kind of talked about before.
Got to have a gap car, man.
There has to be a gap car in there.
It's kind of seemed like they're going backwards.
And I agree with that because they were at a small point where they just sold 911s until the Cayenne and all that.
And then they started expanding.
Yeah.
Because they realized they could do that and come in at a different price point.
But now they have too many things.
So I mean, I mean, you could.
It's pretty easy.
It's it's not rocket science.
You could turn a lover into a hater really, really fast.
You can have all these kids are young aspiring professionals that are coming up that are priced out of the market.
And somebody else is going to buy their loyalty because they're going to be able to work their way up the ladder.
As we talked about before with Porsche, where was their goal was to get you in the door.
Their goal was to, hey, let's get you in a Cayman, like a brand new Cayman S.
And, you know, they have good resale value.
You drive that for a few years and you work hard at your company, stack some more money up, maybe get a promotion or something.
Bring that car back to us and trade it in and we'll get you into a 911 and move and move up that train.
I mean, like that's the whole like process.
But if you don't have something where somebody can come in and there's not an aspirational car.
I mean, no one's out there aspirate, you know, having aspirations of I want a Panamera.
I want to buy a Cayenne and work my way up.
That's just that's just transportation for a lot of folks like that's not that's not like, oh, yeah, man.
I got a I got an enthusiast car.
I mean, don't get me wrong.
There's plenty of people that think those cars are because they have a Porsche key chain and they have that.
And they're like, I have a Porsche and it's like, oh, what do you have?
It's like, I have a Panamera.
It's like, stop talking to me.
Like that's not that's cool that you have that.
But, you know, that's an accessory to having a Lamborghini person.
But if I those are, yeah, it's like, which Lamborghini do you have?
It's like, I have an RS.
You're like, don't talk to me.
Like that's not a Lamborghini, basically.
And not and not that's a rude saying.
But at the same time, it's where you're only saying that when they're bragging.
Like if they say that in just conversation and they're at peace with it and they're like, oh, yeah, that's my daily.
It's cool. I love it.
You know, it does everything I needed to do.
And that's a different conversation.
But if somebody's out there throwing keys around like there's some Billy badass and they're like, bro, you drive a Panamera for like, take it easy.
You're just a cool car.
But yeah, not only that, but they're not experiencing what you would probably consider the soul of the company and, you know, that sort of thing.
There's no race.
What?
It's nothing related to that.
Like, I mean, like you can really, really string it out, I'm sure.
And you talk to a Porsche engineer.
It's like, oh, yes, like the hybrid system has some type of lineage back to the hybrid car.
It's like some like, OK, which is not changing the driver.
So that car at all.
I'm just saying, looking at the thing from the outside in, the whole goal is if you at least it used to be for them and they were showing it, you want people that brand loyalty, right?
They want that brand loyalty.
Well, they have the hype car now.
I think that's more the struggle.
They have the three RS.
Yeah, right now.
It's hyped up.
Right now.
What's like, even you give it all this and even have a 911.
What's next?
That's going to carry that.
They're not.
Well, here's a great exercise in it since this car is being compared to it and has been for a long time.
The Huracan, right?
They're saying the three RS and they have been saying since the three RS came out as the new Huracan.
It's the entry level, bad ass car or whatever.
Like you're not buying the big dog.
Like basically you're not buying a GT2 RS.
They don't make it anymore.
But still, it's the one step before that.
But every bro or dot com guy or financial bro or somebody who's inherited money or busted their tail and think that,
I'm sure you posted that thing on our thing about Magnus talking about the biggest poser car that there is, right?
The new three RS.
I don't necessarily agree with that because there are some drivers with that, but he's not necessarily wrong either.
Because there is a lot of clout chasers who buy those cars and like,
Oh, I got some special color and I have this the boards and I have this deviated stitching and all.
It's like, so does that change that the car how it drives at all?
Oh, the answer is no.
Yeah, it is no.
So like I would see like the most gangster three RS would be just black on black, no bullshit on it or just white or silver.
Because everybody's chasing PTS, right?
Like everybody's chasing this.
But anyways, I digress.
The point of that is the guys to walk in there, unless they're just bags of money, never even owned a 911.
And then there's going to walk in and be like, I want, I want a three RS.
It's like, okay, well, your option is you can have three RS money.
You're young.
So you have what dot com money.
So if those guys are clout chasers and they come in there, those guys are going to buy a 992 dot two Carrera S.
Because that's to them, that's poverty spec.
Right.
But they don't have three RS money.
So how do you keep them around?
You don't.
They go somewhere else and then they go hype up another car or they follow these tech talkers or YouTube people and like,
Oh, you know, the joke about the G80.
Oh, I'm going to go get an M3.
I'm going to do this.
I'm going to boost it.
I'm going to go chase a thousand horsepower because I'm a dipshit and I have a broccoli hair and all this stuff that goes along with it.
But you still aren't bringing the people who actually want to drive in.
So they're basically changing their demographic of people.
And I think personally for the work for those people are not loyal people.
That's what they're not recognized.
Those people move to the next hot thing.
People like you and I and many of our listeners were loyal people.
We buy the cars because they drive well.
We drive and I've said this many times and I'm sure there's many listeners that listen to us and I'm sure you think this way too.
I wish they cost nothing because then I could have more of them.
Yes.
But that is not the world we live in, unfortunately, because usually a product that delivers better than its intent ends up costing more.
I you can you can go down the rabbit hole and we won't.
But a lot if you're into bourbon, you can go chase bourbon that it costs more because it's produced better and it produces better one than expected.
You can do it with the watch thing.
You can do it if you're into knives.
You can do it if you're into guns.
It doesn't matter.
Like there's an echelons to all of this.
And the problem with that is quality products cost more money.
The difference is the delta of that product.
Meaning some places are reasonable about their charge.
I feel like Porsche has gotten unreasonable about their delta for what they want to charge there for their cars.
Like they've gotten to a level where it's past inspirational or aspirational to go get.
It's past that point.
It's almost at the it's at the point where people are defeated.
And that's never a good look where people are like, oh, I used to be able to if I busted my tail, I could afford this.
Someday when my kids go to college and I have some disposable income, I could afford this.
That goalpost has moved so far in such a short amount of time.
They've alienated so many people.
And because of that, when you alienate people like that, that doesn't make them like a lot of folks.
Some people get a chip on their shoulders.
I was like, all right, I'm going to work harder to get more.
Or they're going to say, if you I'm taking my money elsewhere and majority of the people are going to do that.
Majority of the people are going to go, you know what, I bust my ass for my money.
I don't see a promotion in sight.
I don't see my financial situation changing anytime soon.
So you've just inspired me to go buy another fill in the blank.
Yeah. Well, I mean, so a way to look at that, too, is they don't even have to go to the funnel cycle anymore.
If they have the hype car, they just get the people the money paying up for it.
And they get the money now versus over a lifetime, not not really building a customer because they don't need to because they're just they know that.
They know there's no loyalty there.
But it also gives them the same credibility of being a luxury brand and assemble, which is what they wanted to be.
But what does that do for you from a longevity standpoint when you're when your history?
Because now you're but now you're what you use.
But it doesn't matter what your crowd used to used to be.
It's where your crowds at.
So if you're now you're.
Yeah, but when those people leave you because you don't make the hype car anymore, what happens to your financial situation as a company is what I'm getting at.
Yeah.
Because you've chased away loyalty to chase what you just said.
Yeah.
Money and luxury.
Well, money and luxury is not loyal.
Money and luxury will go wherever money and luxury wants to go and whatever whoever makes the next hype thing.
So you've put yourself in a paradox as a company to your next hit has to be in number one.
Your next hit has to be in number one.
But I don't care who it is being that I don't care who it is.
You can't go back to like they got lucky.
They got they kept hitting with the the GT products that they were.
But that I have a sneak in suspicion that all those lake beds are drying up as we speak or have already dried up.
So like what are you going to do then cut go price up and hope your loyalty people keep buying.
Dude, there's so many people already pissed before this even announcement.
So is I'm ever going to stop liking Porsche.
Absolutely not.
But my bank in my mind has always been in the vintage stuff.
And cheaper to go that route.
And I feel like most people that are listening and like there's a reason for it right because of this.
We don't want to get caught up in this hype train.
We don't want to be associated with those people.
So there's a clear divide between enthusiasts that want to drive and track and do things that we want to do as opposed to people that are like of the look at me people.
Yeah.
Well, and how much are you overpaying for right now?
Yeah.
Because I mean we're not even you know if you don't consider I mean nobody likes to lose money.
But with it being hyped it's overpriced.
And so when is that correct?
Because what's going to happen is because when everybody dumps on those cars that's when it's going to happen.
And everybody moves to the next thing.
That's going to take the new 3Rs right?
Yeah.
If they stay there.
Yeah.
If they stay there.
Because they'll be trading their 3Rs in fill in the blank with some other company.
There's no loyalty there.
What man?
They're just lucky.
They're just lucky that Tamarario's not really hitting that well because it didn't come out the gate the way the Huracan did.
Like those Huracans sold off the shelf.
That model line alone infused billions of dollars in the Lamborghini that they have never seen before in their entire existence.
That vehicle alone changed them.
Yeah, they sold some Gallardo's.
They did pretty good with that entry level.
But I mean nothing to the scale that those Huracans did.
Nothing.
I mean I think they sold like 45,000 Huracans.
Which is insane.
That's all done now.
But they sold them all.
And those are 300 something plus thousand dollar cars.
Right?
I mean they were everywhere.
I mean you could random on Turro.
But yeah maybe that's a yeah.
That could be a total use case for a 3Rs.
No I know.
But my point is bringing that up is look at what the follow up was to that.
That Tamarario failure to launch car.
Nobody wants that car compared to the way they wanted the Huracan.
So my point is you're only as good as that hit.
What's Porsche going to do when their second whatever they decide they think is going to be a hit doesn't hit.
Well that and like they come in and all these trade-ins come in one.
And they're close to what they paid for.
And they're already in the hole.
Definitely about 40,000 less units than the Huracans.
I think that they're trying to fix a problem by making another mistake personally.
I will say that's the thing.
I mean time is going to tell us whether this is a good decision.
And obviously it's a money-driven decision.
And it makes sense from the saving money perspective.
They're to strip mine in their own stock.
But it saves well I mean it makes sense from saving money perspective right now in the tunnel vision currently.
Of course.
Not like you said like over the next 10 years.
But that's what's got that's what got them in there too.
Because they were making a decision with the electric car for that time period as opposed to saying.
Because all the 10 years it'll be fine.
Let's pump the brakes instead of like let's just can we get away with hybrids.
We've been making hybrids.
We already know how to do hybrids.
We kind of know how those works.
Like instead of taking that electric endeavor and face planting.
And I guess the best way to say it like in my mind because I always try to look at things that we've gone through in life or other people have gone through life to try to make things.
So I take something an example to make it smaller for like in my mind goes to immediately you're taking a college exam everybody in the class.
But maybe a few people failed the exam.
So what you're one of the failures and you tell your parents or your friends and go from whoever will listen to you that gives a crap about your grades and say.
Well of the 20 people in the class or 25 people in the class 20 of us failed it.
That's like kind of the EV thing it's like oh well there's 20 of us that failed it so I wasn't wrong for failing it so you're trying to rationalize your failure because everyone else failed.
And it's like OK well there were five that didn't.
So why weren't you one of those five.
That's the question I want to ask like that's how my brain works instead of hearing.
Hey well everybody else got killed so I got killed too.
But those two guys didn't get killed how come they didn't get killed.
It's like because they fought their way out of there.
It's like oh OK why didn't you fight your way out.
So I know that's an oversimplification of what happened there.
But at least that's just how my mind works.
It's just kind of one of the and I feel like Porsche is supposed to be elevated.
So I think they're they're tacking on excuses of well the EU is doing this.
What they did is they did they did something they don't ever do.
Yeah they move too fast.
Yeah they usually move too slow and it bit them on the ass.
This one time they did it bit them on the ass.
That's true.
They usually are the last to market with their shit.
They were trying to be first to market with all their stuff and it bit them on the ass.
Well I hadn't done a full shift on like everything.
Like they've never made an electric car they don't know.
Yeah the first and then yes you made a hybrid but that doesn't mean.
And think about all the stuff we saw too while that was coming out.
They pumped so much of that bullshit into all of their sales rep all of their places.
They put such a big campaign.
They spent so much money parading these cars around doing all of these things doing all this stuff.
Oh we're going to do a Nurburgr electric car fastest time.
Oh we're going to do the indoor longest burnout with it.
We're going to do 24 hour endurance.
That all falls into the who gives a shit category.
And the mission he actually looked a lot better than I can.
So yeah I mean it all falls into the no one gives a shit category.
Literally other than the people that are patting themselves on the back like we did it guys.
You know it's like you know cool.
It's like going to the moon in 2027.
It's like hey we've been there pal.
Good job.
Here's a gold sticker for you.
It's just one of those things where no one cares.
No one cared and no one's going to care.
Like no one's going to care about that stuff because the people that they want to buy those things.
Those people don't care about those things.
Those are your you know commuters that live in the city
and they think they're doing good and they don't pay attention to the lithium mines in Africa
and what's happening with all that.
You know they want to pat themselves on the backs.
You know they wear toms.
They do all that stuff.
You know whole foods.
All that crowd.
You think those people care about Nurburgring times?
Probably not.
You think no you know the room bro.
Because people like you and us care about that stuff
but then when you see what the car they're doing it with
they immediately lose us too.
Because we're like you know what I don't give a shit about that.
So now that car falls into a category that no one cares.
And the whole market is gone so cheap.
There's no way you can be committed.
No.
You're like you know what we're going to do?
We're going to double down and make a GT Taycan.
So I'm going to make people buy this to get allocations.
That's how we're going to sell these cars.
So now you're strong arming your clients that we've talked about before
which is a shit move.
The loyal clients.
Yeah.
You got to buy these.
You got to do this.
You got to do.
You got to.
You know it's almost like an escape room.
All right pull these three levers on the right.
Shake your foot and do a dance with your left hand
and then the door opens.
Like that's how you get allocations.
I'm still going to try to get a GT.
You know you need another person.
You're like hey grab that lever.
Grab that lever.
Like it's like dude what the fuck are we doing here man.
One another Macan.
No.
Yeah.
You open the thing up.
It's like congratulations.
You have a PTS Macan on the way.
It's like.
There's a third one this week.
Yeah.
Snake eyes again.
No allocation for you.
No soup for you.
Anyways it's just a.
You know I've never you've owned at least a Boxster.
I haven't owned either one of these cars.
But I'm a firm believer in if you own a product.
I mean every company does it.
I mean think about it.
Even Rolex does it.
Even they have which are expensive now.
But there was there was a stepping stone to that stuff.
An entry level Rolex.
We're going to have to figure out what that.
They're going to know we but they're going to have to figure out
what that is for them.
Yeah.
And right now on the horizon it looks like nothing.
So are we ahead for dark times.
I would say it depends on what your definition of dark times
is because if you're not a new car buyer none of this stuff
matters like a lot of this stuff falls on deaf ears especially
a lot of the people that are listening.
It's still a good table talk.
But at the end of the day you still need to have a pulse on
the company that you have enthusiasm with even if you're
buying older cars because if they're in dire straits and
they're going like in into a dark age which seems like
we're being led to that affects us in a lot of ways right.
That affects us from a selfish standpoint with product
placement them spending money on events i.e.
rent sport stuff like that.
All of this stuff could dry up right.
All of this stuff could say hey we're we're tightening the
purse strings.
We don't have the money.
We're not even making an entry level car.
They have all the excuses in the book right.
Like we're not going racing anymore we're only doing
customer programs.
We're only doing this.
So my point is yes you might not be buying new cars but
this can impact all of us still to a certain degree.
It's just it funnels down at all funnels down to us.
But yeah that's big news.
So that's why we spent a lot of time on it.
Some more big news goodwood festival speed that just
finished up very cool stuff there.
I would say the biggest takeaway from that is they made
an announcement that they're going to be coming to the
US.
Feelings.
Yeah.
So I don't I don't think that's obviously they're still
going to do the UK that's our home.
Obviously but the extent of what that looks like they didn't
go into it.
It was just a very they made it a big deal which I think it is
a big deal but they didn't say year or location or what
that's going to look like they just said they're coming to
the US.
Yeah.
My theory behind this obviously wherever this lands the
goodwood festival speed if you're not familiar with it the
core of what that is it's a hill climb event.
And then manufacturers come there it's shown display some
people run their cars up brand new cars for manufacturers
just to display them they're not trying to compete.
So it's four days of that.
So I would think to not lose the core of the event and it
would diminish the experience if there wasn't a hill
climb.
If they're coming to the US there it has to go somewhere
where there's a hill climb.
It's got to go by speak.
I mean that's a hell of a that I mean we're going to do
abbreviated hill climb because they're not going to run
that whole thing.
They got it they got it short anyways.
Yeah.
But that's my first thought was by speak I don't know
where else they're going to be doing it.
There's nothing there's a couple of hill climbs.
I think there's one in New York but not with a
castle not with the same property.
You're right.
But Pike speak doesn't offer that either though.
Yeah I know.
I was saying the hill the hill part and there's nothing to
say it doesn't end up in California.
I mean they're big enough thing where I wouldn't be
surprised if they built a damn hill climb somewhere and
hosted an event somewhere to be honest with you.
They might I mean that might be the better option for them
to do just or close to maybe whatever track allows them to
build a hill climb maybe build a hill climb.
Do you think they're feeling like they're at capacity
of what they're doing with the events where they need a
third or they saw the World Cup and said we can make money
to let's.
No I think if anybody they're looking at they're probably
looking at Luft and seeing that Luft moves around Luft is
successful like these events move around.
And I think it's a big enough brand it has been for a very
long time and I think it's not I don't even think it's about a
capacity thing I think that they they think they're probably
just losing a lot of the U.S.
market stuff like I've been I know the few others have been
some diehards have been it's not easy to go for a couple
reasons right.
So if you're in the U.S.
and your family's not too keen on going to Europe for vacation
or England because let's let's not just say it's Europe
because it's just England and you don't want to go to the
south of England for just a car event if you have wife kids
all that stuff it's kind of a hard hard sell.
Maybe they're looking at it like if we go somewhere in the U.S.
this is the easier sell for a lot a lot more folks.
And I kind of agree with that like I agree our country is big
enough where we could we could probably pull something like
that.
I don't think they'll be foolish enough to run it at the same
time.
That would be stupid.
Like why would you do a Goodwood Festival U.S.
at the same time as the Goodwood Festival is happening at the
Duke's grounds.
It'll be it'll be September October like everything else.
Yeah I'm sure.
But ideally like it would be cool if they did maybe spring.
They have to separate it because they do have their revival
and they have their regular festivals of speed today.
I mean there's going to be a third one involved.
They get cars and some of those cars.
But that when they do the revival it's a totally different vibe.
It's a totally different thing that's more central.
I'm still saying that track racing events.
Yeah yeah well I mean I'm sure they'll hire the arms of
people that they'll just break up their their groups of people
they'll take some other experienced folks they'll take
people that have never worked for them before and then they'll
hire them and then they'll mentor those folks.
That's not going to be the hard part.
I think location is going to be more of a difficult
thing than anything because if you're trying to replicate what
you have there I don't see how you have an event that's going
to be called that not have a hill climb.
And I think the challenge is there's only a handful of hill
climbs in the U.S.
that could it would be you'd almost have to build something
around it which they're more than capable of doing.
And that's probably what we'll see.
Tell the dragon.
Tell her now.
But the whole point of that is so people can watch.
You wouldn't ever see anything.
So where's a good location that has built-in infrastructure
where you can actually stay and the hill climb.
I'm thinking the best thing that they'll probably do is
they'll probably have to do a track.
They'll have to pick a track that allows them to build a hill
climb at the track.
And they'll spend some time building it.
And then that way they can still, because how it works at
Goodwood is they have all the paddocks, they have all the
cars on display, all the manufacturer booths are there.
So you have to have a big area too.
What about just not looking to take a reverse?
Yeah the issue with that is I still don't think you can do,
I mean you could probably make.
Because they have the hill and everything.
Yeah the whole point of the hill climb is it's supposed to be
it's supposed to be less than a minute long.
They just cut out the last or like from a cork screw back to,
I don't know which turn it is, back to the straight.
The issue with it, it just wouldn't do the same thing
because they have a flint wall there.
They have a lot more stuff going on.
There's no dynamics.
And they're never going to put anybody that close to the track
so you can watch.
So like with the hay bells, how they do it.
It's going to be a unique challenge for them
because they have a very unique setup there
that they're able to control
and like what they've been able to create,
what they've been able to create there.
And we may actually get some type of abbreviated version of it.
We may not get what I'm hoping for.
We may not get the core of all that.
We may just get, and maybe they're hoping,
okay, whatever this is,
we'll entice them to come to the full event.
Maybe that's what this will be.
Maybe this will be an appetizer to say,
oh, well, I want to see the main event.
Yeah, because there's still so many brands.
Now I'd have to ship their stuff over to the States
for them to do it.
But people would do it.
People like coming to the U.S.
We're pretty chill with as far as letting cars in
for events like that.
I don't know.
It'll be interesting to see.
And it didn't give it a year either.
So it's TBD.
So they're strategic about it where maybe
they are going to build a place.
Yeah, or maybe just gauging interest to see.
I think there's always been interest
at the fact that they verbally committed to it.
I think maybe what they're going to do is they're going to,
they may be secretly already have a location.
They're going to build something out.
They're going to build all this stuff out.
And it's going to be a venue.
And you know what it might turn into?
It's going to be at Willow Springs.
I heard that too, but I don't know if it's going to be
at Willow though, because I don't know if Willow
going to support that.
Because have you seen what Willow Springs looks like, dude?
That's what I'm saying.
Well, I mean, one announcer said that.
The reason why I say that is, I mean,
have you pulled up what Willow Springs looks like?
Yeah, I've seen people race on it.
It's like a damn desert.
There's nothing.
There's no hill climb there.
I don't know why that would be there.
So then now you're turning it into,
if it is there and they don't build something,
now it's just a track event.
So I don't think that would be personally,
I'm not driving.
I'm not going to go all the way out to Willow in California
just to watch some guys run around on track where we could.
They were speculating fall 2028.
Yeah, so that's some time.
Entry starting January 2027.
Willow, was it for sale at one point?
No, maybe they bought it.
They could have secretly bought it or something
and then maybe they're going to change.
I mean, the track will remain, but maybe.
This is all tether.
We can just mow this stuff down.
Well, the track will probably be there
because a lot of people still use it.
And they need a, the track portion would make sense
if they brought a revival to the U.S. too,
because they need a track for that.
Yeah.
So then it does.
They just built a castle right next to it.
Because why not?
The U.S. castle.
Somewhere else.
But I mean, if all of that goes into that,
then it'll be awesome because they'll build a hill.
California makes most sense for the weather.
I thought it's the same thing too.
In the desert?
Willow gets hot though, man.
I'm not saying don't get hot,
but maybe it didn't rain that often.
No, it doesn't, but what they're going to have to do is
pick a good time of year to do it
because it gets really hot there.
But yeah, they have to, I'll close with,
they have to build a hill climb there.
Like if they're going to do it there,
I'm sure Willow will allow them to do it.
Maybe they own it and they don't need permission
and they'll just do it.
They just recreate the exact same thing for me
and it looks exactly the same.
I mean, same.
Do it anything.
I'm sure they won't do that just because
they wanted something new.
Yeah.
They'll want a different vibe.
But they'll definitely, if they add all that there though
and they add, I don't know, like pavilions
and they add all this stuff in there,
that can definitely change what that looks like.
It'll be like the same thing how like the Grand Tour
from Top Gear Transition where it's like,
a lot of it looks the same, but it's a little different.
Yeah.
We'll see.
It'll be interesting.
All right.
I had a good exercise with this
and I sent it to you.
I know you might be, maybe you had time to read it
or maybe not.
I like to read.
So because 9-Elevens in the market for all 9-Elevens
have moved up across the board, obviously,
and we've been talking about that a lot on the show,
I'm not going to talk about how much each variant's gone up
that everybody already knows that.
That's still happening.
What I want to talk about more of that kind of piggybacks
onto what we were talking about them cutting out variants.
So in your mind, what is out there that kind of drives
like a 9-Eleven where you could go spend your money
somewhere else?
I'm not advocating for people to do that,
but let's be realistic.
There's a lot of folks out there that have other bills
that are not going to go out there
and buy a 2013 Crera S for $80,000.
Because if they have $80,000,
they're not going to buy a 13-year-old Crera S PDK
because that is not, for them is not sexy, right?
Yeah, I would just admit it's a lot of money, do you?
To be fair, though, if you really break down the dynamics of it
and looking at what this exercise is pretty difficult to do
because obviously you're not going to get engine placements
never going to be the same
because no other car manufacturer is doing that.
So that's out.
And you're not going to get any cars
never going to drive just like another car.
My gauge was can you get 65, 70% Porsche 9-Eleven
feels from another car for far less money?
My answer was yes, but it is not easy.
There are a few cars that kind of fit the mold
and let's go over some of those now.
And they're less than that $80,000.
And that was kind of my litmus.
I was using a 991.1 Crera S.
Yeah, a little bit older.
Yeah, 400 horsepower, flat six.
Naturally aspirated.
That's what Porsche generally, that's what it's known for.
Yes, there's turbo variants, but at its core, flat six,
the NA rear engine, that's what is a pure 9-Eleven.
That's what a real 9-Eleven is.
And like a 13 without clapped out miles.
I'm not talking about crazy mile, like not like zero miles on it,
but like 40, 50,000 miles, those are selling at 80 grand.
And they're not manuals.
However, 400 horsepower car weighs 3,100 pounds.
That's pretty stout.
Looks pretty subtle from the outside.
You know, you don't have big wings.
You don't have all the sexy stuff going on.
It looks, you know, as a young kids, young kids would say,
you know, regular traffic.
But a lot of people like that though,
because they don't want to be flashy.
And the people that can afford it, they can afford it.
They want it to be good driving car when they want it to be.
And they want it to be docile when they want it to be.
And it kind of fits that category.
However, do you need to spend 80 grand to get that effect?
I think the answer is not necessarily yes.
So let's go through some of these that I think that are some candidates.
Number one, it comes to mind is an S2000.
Natural.
Now, before people say, oh, well, that car doesn't have the power.
It doesn't have this.
That is true.
Now, hear me out.
And after I make my argument, again, I said 65 to 70%.
I didn't say it was going to be that.
We're never going to find engine placement the same.
So they hear me out.
The car weighs 2,800 pounds.
So 300 pounds lighter.
Granted, it's down two cylinders.
It's only a four.
It's an inline four.
Only 240 horsepower.
Yes, it's down.
It doesn't have foreign horsepower.
However, it's a high-revving motor.
The 911s are high-revving motors.
So they share that in common.
They both come in manuals.
50-50 weight distribution on this car, though.
Better than a Porsche.
So it wins in that category.
Now, it's gutless down low just like a 911.
So they share that as well.
And the big kicker here is the price delta.
You can get a very, very nice one of these for 40-something.
Nice.
40, 50 of them.
I mean, I'm not saying like collector quality,
but good driver quality, not clapped out,
not like somebody's putting me on yellow wheels on.
I'm talking like Bone Stocker.
I'm not talking about some hot boy special.
I'm talking about like adult driven.
Well looked after.
You know, you're spending about 45, 50 grand.
How do you feel about that?
We've got a couple more,
but I kind of want to talk to Aaron about this a little bit.
How do you feel about comparison-wise
that does that make sense to you at all?
I think so.
I mean, that's why I played this game by myself.
I think there's 2,000 with it being revving to 9,000.
It's from your list I see here.
I feel like it's the most sports car, sports car,
but I don't know.
And cult following too, not to cut you off, sorry.
Cult following too, yeah.
So that's important to some people, maybe not.
Yeah, you still have a group to go hang out with.
Huge enthusiast group that love them.
Consumer, like everything else too.
Consumables are cheaper,
so there could be some things said for that.
And special, they're special.
They went out of there.
This isn't a shared chassis car.
It's a car that was made to do this.
That's it.
So that's why I think it's number one on the list.
Yeah.
There's a couple of different models.
AP1, AP2.
Pricing is actually really good.
I thought they were a little bit more expensive.
I mean, you can go deep if you're going for collector grade.
You can go deep.
But I was trying to keep it at 60,000, 70,000 miles.
But as long as you don't mind a convertible,
I think that would be the only thing that I would say out of that.
My only con would be if you're okay with a convertible.
Yeah.
That's outside of that.
It's supposed to be some of the best, you know,
best shifter feel ever, ever made because it's directly connected to.
Yeah.
That's another reason why it's very comparable to 9-11 shifting.
Yeah.
A lot of journalists have said that.
I spent a lot of time in an S2000 and AP1.
They're phenomenal cars.
Every car has its quirks.
Obviously, this is not what this is about.
We're not talking about the quirks on it.
And yeah, going into like, you know,
some of them can have some engine issues if they're not looked after properly and things like that.
I would say that they have a very good enthusiast crowd,
but it's a mixed crowd.
So like if you're an older adult, you can find yourself.
That's giving you some new friends, new perspectives, right?
Yeah.
I guess that's a nice way to say it.
Let's just say there's a younger crowd that does gravitate towards those,
but I would say just because of that doesn't mean it's one of those situations
where you have to hang out with those folks and that doesn't define that culture.
There's just, it's an arm of that culture within it.
But there's, you know, plenty of guys that go out there and rip twisty roads in them
and just put sticky tires on suspension and they're not worried about putting,
you know, the biggest Garrett turbo on there or Jackson Racing Supercharger
and Hot Boine and a Le Mans.
That's going to ask you, like, how much, how far would you go with it when you got it?
Would it just be like coilovers?
OEM plus, man, coilovers, probably bushings, you know, control arms,
probably some TEs, but not like big TEs.
TEs where I could put chunky rubber on it.
Probably super quiet exhaust that I went aftermarket.
16 inch wheel.
Yeah.
So I just keep those.
I mean, just in lower, way lower maintenance costs than a 911.
So you're, you're winning there too.
Parts way cheaper.
Yeah.
So that's selling the GT3.
No, I'm just saying, like, if you're looking for a car and you were one of these people
that we talked about earlier in the podcast that was aspirational, it's like,
I really want a 911.
I want this.
I'm a, you're a car enthusiast.
I'm sure everybody who's listening is a car enthusiast.
They're not just brand loyal.
So that's kind of what we're bringing up.
I know it's a Porsche podcast, but sometimes it's good to have these exercises,
these like mental exercises of there are other things to do with your money
and still have a lot of fun.
And I think that's a great example.
I mean, how you could daily that car, you know, and not, and not worry about it
and have top down if you like that.
Super high revving motor.
Have you got issues?
Never.
I mean, it's a Honda dude.
Like it was, it did everything it was supposed to do at all the time.
Like every, every time.
Yeah, that car, you know, I guess, I mean, it was a gap car because they weren't making
the NSX when they were making that.
Yeah, it was very, I remember when they came out.
Yeah.
That's when the staff started to say, Hey, look at the cars.
Man, it's really fun.
I'm like, sure it is.
Yeah.
Cause I just thought it was like convertible.
I didn't know too much about it at that time.
Yeah.
And to be fair, not, not a lot of people did.
I just thought it was kind of a weird thing.
And then now, yeah, now it's like.
And for the time they were, they were expensive when they were new.
So a lot of them kind of sat around on showroom floors because they were about 40
grand.
The kids who wanted them were us.
Early twenties couldn't afford that.
So who was buying them?
Older men.
Usually.
I think they were probably.
And then another cool thing about that car.
I think it's another attribute in a way.
Manual only.
Yeah.
So, so you don't have to.
Oh, is it, is it PDKs at a dual?
Dude, if you're buying S 2000, it's a manual only brother.
No boxes, no boxes to check whenever you're doing the search.
You don't have to worry about it.
That's all you get.
Um, you know, and there's a little bit of variance between AP one,
AP two, but I think this is a safe place to land.
And I also think it has legs, longevity wise, especially if you get one that's
not clapped out and that's not hot boyed out.
And again, it doesn't have to be collector grade, but I think, I think
they're, they're past the point of depreciation.
If anything, they're going to be on what we talk about with Porsches before
with 23 percent increase per year.
Yeah.
Long as you look after the car, it's safe money.
So it's like, if you spend 45 on it in three or four years,
it'll probably be worth 47.
And, you know, minus you logging another 40,000 miles during that time,
probably not, but like if it's a fun car and you're taking care of it and
tasteful with your mods and you can put them on and off,
I think you get your money right back out of it.
So that's one.
Second one on my list.
Now, I know thick girls are like a thing.
And then people like thick girls.
And that's kind of why I put this one in there.
This is the thick girl of the bunch.
I put GT 350 in there.
Not the R, just the 350 because the R is like expensive.
So, I mean, they're not like out of control expensive.
They're like 80s, you know, that's that 9-11.
But I'm trying to come in under that.
So, you know, you can get a 350 for less than a lot less than 80.
But don't get an early one because they have crankshaft issues.
I think, I think LZ burnt one down.
Get a later one if you can as they fix that issue.
That's good.
So if you don't know a little bit of background on it,
high revving flat plane V8 revs to 8250.
Pretty stout for V8, right?
It's uncommon, uncommon for a Mustang.
54, 46 weight balance on that car.
So it's still pretty good.
Yeah, pretty good.
Pretty much where Porsche is with theirs.
The opposite way.
46, 54.
Like roughly.
I think it's a little higher.
I think it's like 56.
Like in the rear.
Maybe something like that.
Don't quote me exactly, depending on the models.
But 500.
So that this is where this car punches good.
526 horsepower.
So, you know, over the 3100 pound Porsche 911 at 400 horsepower,
it weighs 650 pounds more, but has 126 more horsepower.
So maybe a wash on that with, you know, the 126 more horsepower.
Yeah.
So very doable.
These are, you don't have a hard time finding these.
They're out there, but they might not always be.
Again, same kind of situation as the S2000.
You can find some clapped out out boy versions of them.
More of kind of a, you know, Mexi-Mullet stuff going on with these cars.
If you're into that kind of thing.
And then there's, you know, some old men have owned these.
So then you can get one of those that's not clapped out and it's not modded.
And, you know, it was the seventh blue one built on August 13th,
between the hours of 6 p.m. and 9 p.m. as they were closing the plant, you know,
and it's got a special decal just to tell you that.
So there's that crowd.
But then there's also like the enthusiast crowd that, you know,
wants to track on wants to take him to the mountains and there's all that.
So, you know, it's arguable to say that Porsche people are the same way.
Like, you know, with the event, you know, there's, there's places where they go
and put their boards out and stand on golf courses.
So Porsche people do this similar stuff.
So you're building your board looks pretty good.
Yeah, they think they're better than the Mustang people, but they do the same crap.
Anyways, so fat girl, but does come with some cool stuff, right?
High revving engine, horsepower.
Not a way. It's probably the best.
Yeah, you could probably pick, you know, I looked at these anywhere between like
55 and 70 gets you a good one.
Yeah.
On the lower end of that, they're kind of, you know, you're taking a little bit more risk.
The lower that number is the higher that number is you're taking a little bit less of risk,
meaning like booked after and, you know, how it was used or what, however.
Or abused. Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
You know, talking about attrition with cars, you know, a lot of these are made,
but a lot of them are probably gone, you know, since they, we know, they like to go into crowds
and wrap around trees. So we know there's that particular taste.
Yeah. So these things get hungry for people and curbs and trees and all that stuff.
So like, long as you don't turn into one of those folks, you'll be all right.
But from an attrition standpoint, there's probably less of them, a lot less of them now than there were
when they first came out because of those reasons.
I mean, we don't see me. The only time I've seen them is when Jeff, that is, I really don't.
I've seen them too often.
I don't see a ton of them either, but that doesn't say much.
We're not going to the places they go to usually.
So that's fair.
I guess that's true.
You know, it's almost like going fishing and being like, you know, I never see, you know,
go freshwater fishing.
I never see any groupers out here.
It's like, yeah, you're in the freshwater.
You're going to see a group out here.
But I think that's a solid candidate.
What are your thoughts on that?
I think it's good.
I don't know that be my first choice, but.
Well, it wasn't.
That's why I put it in number two slot.
Yeah.
I think it'd probably be trust me.
This exercise was not easy, dude.
I don't know.
Maybe four out of the cars you listed, maybe four.
I don't know that I like the.
And again, another manual only, right?
Like if you get it, one of these, there is no automatic option.
So there's that too.
I think I would need to drive one to see if I really liked it, but I think it's just
going to just be big and kind of.
I would see that.
I've never driven one.
So I can't, I can't say yay or nay on this.
I've never driven a stats only.
I mean, believe it or not.
And weight distribution, power, manual enthusiasm, like again, 65 to 70 percent.
It's track.
It's supposed to be track focused.
So that's kind of why I was saying 9 11 is.
I'm sure it's great, but I'm sure they asked you 1000 would be just just for it being
like what probably make it feel.
That much better to me.
I bet.
Yeah.
I mean, yeah, the the Mustangs at 1000 pounds heavier, but it also has more than double
the horsepower.
So it depends on what you like, right?
Like if you like a high-revving V8, it's a unique car.
I mean, I don't ever see them doing that again.
They hadn't done him one prior to that.
It'll be it'll be another like it'll blip on the 20 years.
Yeah, it'll be a blip on something.
Yeah.
Blip on the radar of like, man, remember when Ford made this?
So I think, again, I searched high and low and it's a good contender.
I would say, but I don't know that I would go after one as much as I would in S 2000
or the rest of the car.
Yeah.
I like the 350, the 350.
I think if I did buy one, I'd probably want to get the R.
That that would be.
What is it?
What's the R get you that the 350 doesn't?
Just a little bit more light, not a ton like you can.
Yeah.
It has carbon fiber wheels optioned.
It has a little bit more carbon, you know, splitter, tail.
Just a little bit more race ready.
Yeah.
You know, almost think like GT3 and GT3 RS, essentially between the two.
It's like GT3 50s, like GT3 and then GT3 50 RS, like GT3 RS.
Just turn the dials turned up more on it.
And then final car on here.
And then we'll have a consolation car we can talk about just not because it's in this
list, but just because I want to talk about it.
Yeah.
So this one is a little so this is a European one.
So the M2 and I'm not talking about the current M2.
I'm talking about the F87, the gen that was just outgoing compared to the new one.
And the reason why I say that one is because it's a price point thing.
I'm going for price again.
Like you can still get a new, new one probably in the 50s that was looking like used, you
know, and then pick your poison.
If you go rare, rare color, you're going to spend 80 if you really want.
But I picked this one because I feel like it's again, it's a little down on power to
inline six turbo, 365 out of the box, but these things receive tuned very well.
So like you could you can do a chill tune and still get 100 horsepower on this car.
Curb weight on this car, lighter than the Mustang, obviously heavier than the Porsche
and the S2000.
3450 curb weight, kind of chunky, not as chunky as a GT350, but you can get close in power.
Like I think if you do a 100 horsepower bump, now we're talking 3465 or you could just roll
with this where this is at.
Weight balance was really good with this car.
51.9 in the front, 48.1 in the rear.
So pretty close to 50-50, like really, really close to 50-50.
7000 RPM red line, pretty good for a turbo car.
Usually it's 65 is usually the max on those turbo cars, but 75 on that pretty good.
And you can get these as low as like 35.
So this is kind of be like a little, you could even get, I mean, I think you could get S2000 for 35,
but it's going to be like less, they're made a lot of these.
So you're going to have a better shot of getting more of these in the high 30s, low 40s.
I think this is money well spent.
Now on this vehicle, this does come in PDK and manual.
Manual is obviously more sought after, but if you don't have to have that, you could probably save yourself a little bit of money.
I think this is a good enthusiast spec car because it's small, it's compact, it's an M2.
Is it a good rival for a 911?
Not necessarily because you're kind of comparing apples to oranges, but you are kind of with all of these cars.
So like I said, this exercise is very, very difficult.
It did spend quite a few, a bit of time on this because it was so hard to find something with weight distribution that was good.
Good power and not super expensive and was an enthusiast car.
So like there's a lot of categories that have to be checked to even get close to being compared to the 911 and it's still not delivering 911 stuff.
So it goes to show you maybe that's why they cost so much because it is hard to chase that and hard to find that.
The engineering time behind it for 70 plus years.
Where a car could be docile and go dominate in the mountains.
It could go do well on the track.
It can do the grocery thing.
It can do all the things where you don't have to compromise anywhere.
There are some compromises with the other cars that I've met.
But again, there's nothing that's going to be identical where it's a mirror of like, oh, this brand makes this car.
And so many journalists have written about, oh, this is a 911 rival.
This is a 911 rival.
There isn't really many.
Like you can go and argue, you can put Corvette in there.
You could say, oh, well, you know, you go get a 06
It's kind of like that.
Yeah, kind of.
And I didn't put that in there.
And I know that's there.
I'd like to hear from the audience.
Go ahead and, you know, post when this video comes out, you can put it on the YouTube thing and engage with us there.
I'd love to hear what you guys think is close.
And again, the percentage that I was going for, I feel like is pretty low.
Meaning if I'm if I'm getting 65 to 70 percent of a 911, that's satisfactory.
If I'm saving $30,000, I think that's the trade off.
Like a thousand, basically $1,000 percent per percent.
So it's like, if I'm getting 70 percent there and I could save $30,000, I think that trade off is pretty close or more.
And then over lifetime and things like that.
Yeah.
And again, all the running costs on all three of these cars are going to be cheaper than an island.
BMW probably going to be the most out of this group, but still not like crazy.
Yeah.
But again, consolation prize, we don't have to talk about it because I didn't break it down.
But weight distribution, high revving, NA motor, you can go chase down a C6, 06
I think that's a seven liter and that thing nasty V8 in that car.
Sounds amazing.
But again, it has those bugaboos, right?
Like that motor has a little bit of issues that you need to get.
You got to handle the heads on that car.
Yeah.
Otherwise they can warp, I think, if you're not taking care of it properly.
But that's an easy fix.
Like if you get one, it's not that you can go take it somewhere and get it machined and that that's that's handled.
Sure.
About our favorite dentist on.
He knows all about it.
Exactly.
Yeah.
He bought one.
Obviously he loves it.
He's always been kind of that.
I like him too.
I just the issue with it is everything everybody already knows.
So we don't even need to go down that.
Yeah.
But again, Porsche people are just at the comparison.
It's always been there.
It's not a new development.
They're basically just Corvette people that have more money.
That's all it is.
Not all of them, but just like not all Corvette owners are, you know, knee high socks and
new balances and they're not all the same.
So but they do have that stigma, right?
Like, oh, my Corvette's got the lowest miles ever.
It's like, why'd you buy this thing?
It's like, because I never want to drive it.
I just want to tell you about it.
Meet me at the VFW for $1 Pat Blue Ribbons.
Tell you what color my car is midnight blue metallic.
Bet you never guess it.
I think he's reliving that story.
You're fucked at the VFW so many times.
I just stopped going there because of that.
So consolation car just because I've always liked this ever since I was a kid.
This is not.
So we're off off comparing.
That says nothing to do with that.
This is just more of an enthusiast car that I feel like maybe some people have forgotten.
I have driven one before.
I drove Rob's or Alex's.
They all had that same time.
Exactly.
Or Kennan's.
But it's a good car.
They're not super slow.
I would call them air cooled quick.
Air cooled cars aren't fast.
I mean, it can be.
I'm just talking about like a run of the mill.
Those are also those type of cars.
You had to search for the right motor and time.
So the car, I don't think it's been forgotten, but they didn't make a ton of them.
But I know what I had a real hard on for these when I was young, when they came out.
Because when they first came out was like 2000.
I was 20 years old.
So we're talking about the clown shoe.
If you don't know what that is, that's an M coupe.
Such a, you know, and we were kind of harping on how this was the glory days.
I feel like of BMW.
This is a skunk works car.
Has a big cult following.
I feel like a lot of Volkswagen guys like you and I kind of lusted after this car.
There was one that was whenever I was in tech school, some guy was so loud.
I was like, what is that?
Yeah, they just look so cool.
They have huge, you know, rear haunches on them.
The epitome of like, it's like final boss hatchback, right?
Because it's a hatchback, but it's Euro hatchback.
It's an M car.
Now there's two variants.
You can get the S 52 or the S 54.
There's a huge delta in price between the two.
You can get a S 54 that's been well looked after for like 30 and some change.
You know, if you step up to the S 54, you're basically doubling that.
Your look, your entry points at starts at around 70.
Still got rod bearings and other stuff to address.
Exactly.
More of the motor.
But they're coveted because they made a lot less of them because that was later in the model line.
So they only made, you know, the S 54 and that clown shoot for a couple years.
Still getting the E 36 for the most part, right?
Yeah.
Basically, so, you know, the S 52 variant, E 36 M3, think of that motor in the US variant too of that car.
Because so now, you know, you can get real sticky.
There's Euro variants of the S 52 that had more horsepower.
So that our S 52 had 240 Euro had 300.
Because we had like an S 50.
Yeah.
So they had S 52 is what they had or something like that.
And had ITBs on it in Europe.
And so I had 300 horsepower.
Those cars are importable now.
Like you could import that car if you wanted to because, you know, we're past the 25 year rule on a lot of them.
I always thought they were cool.
I haven't seen one in the wild in so, so long.
Yeah, that's true.
I mean, if I think I saw one, if I saw one to this day, it probably stopped me in my tracks.
Because for me, as a car person, I always thought they were super polarizing.
And I, the most interesting thing I think about this car, at least when I look at the people who like them, either you love them or you hate them.
Like there is nobody it's in between.
It's like, yeah, those are all right.
Like most people are like, oh, my God, that's like hatchback final boss.
And then there's other people.
It's like, that is a stupid car.
That thing looks dumb.
The thing's so like the proportions are wrong.
Like it looks terrible.
I like it just because of all the weird stuff that goes into it.
Right.
The project of these guys building this thing in secret, not asking for permission for it.
And then getting building it first and then asking for forgiveness later.
And then they got approved and then they made them.
I just think that's like a cool thing.
Like that's that's OG old school M department.
That's when guys and girls used to love to make cars where the bean counters weren't involved.
They're like, dude, we're just going to go take an M Roadster and we're just going to, you know how to do this.
You know, like, so they just built this thing and then presented it in enough obviously professional way where it got green lit.
Because if they would have bought a box of shit there, they'd be like, no way, dude, this looks awful.
So clearly they built a good car.
My roadster's not holding up beer.
Let's try it out.
Exactly.
Prost.
You're like, how much beer we can carry in the back of this thing?
They're like, this is a good idea.
And quickly.
Exactly.
So I think honestly, for me, it has it has a lot of penage.
It has a lot of character.
It has a lot of old school vibes.
It has old school and division stuff.
I think they're cool.
I brought this up just because we were on the topics of looking this stuff.
You know, so it put me in the mindset of looking at other things and thinking about other things that were cool and affordable.
And honestly, they're not super fast.
They're not.
But neither are air cooled cars.
Like you can go buy an 80 something SC and that things punching out all of 180 horsepower.
This thing at least has 240 horsepower at least.
I mean, and you could, you know, put a supercharger on these, you know, active auto work still, I think, makes them.
They're still out there.
Bavarian and auto sports make them.
Oh yeah.
You know, Turner Motorsports carry stuff for this car still.
So there's a lot of stuff for it.
I mean, you know, again, this thing doesn't have, again, it's an entry point.
I've seen them for for sale, like with the S 52 and, you know, they got miles, but they're not collapsed because usually people
that had these kind of really like them, you know, for 25 grand.
Like if you got 25 grand and you wanted a cool, unique car that they didn't make a lot of.
I want to say they only made like 800.
No, they didn't make me.
I thought this was a rabbit hole that I went down as well.
Super like a while back.
And I'm still, I never own one and think about this.
I first saw one in 2000.
It's 26 years later.
I still think that car is cool.
I'm kind of kicking myself for not buying an S 54 when they were like reasonable.
Back in the day when all the money on them or it was like $45,000 and people are like, you're insane.
That's insane money for those things.
Now they're like 90.
And another cool thing about these that makes them also very unique in both variants.
They come in really cool colors.
The interiors are really cool.
If you've never looked into these.
Yeah, if you never looked into these, you can really go down as Aaron said, a rabbit hole of man, miss, you know, mismatching colors.
You like you can get a Arctic silver exterior and, you know, Napa blue interior evergreen interior.
And there's a lot of mixed smashing going on.
If you want that, or you can just get black and black if you want to do that and fly under the radar, but you're never going to fly under the radar with this silhouette.
But like people are going to see it.
And the cool thing about it is is the people who know what it is, they know exactly what it is.
And like you're going to get attention for not a lot of money.
Like not if you want that attention, but I'm saying even if you just showed up at a cars and coffee, that car demands respect.
Like people see that car and people are like, oh, shit, dude, it's a clown shoe.
Like even if you hate it, you still know what it is.
I would say, you know, everybody raves about, oh, I want to, I want to buy, you know, E46 M3.
They made a million of those.
They didn't make a lot of these.
And honestly, from power to weight.
OK, so like another thing that I thought was really cool with these cars, they don't weigh a lot.
Like I thought, oh, OK, you know, you think they would weigh a lot because of the hatchback, but you got to think about the platform it was made on.
It was on that Z3 Roadster platform.
So this car weighs all of 3,000 pounds.
That's it.
So it's pretty.
Yeah, probably less because of the weight.
Yeah, it's no, it's like three.
It's like 3,023 pounds.
So it's pretty light.
Yeah, pretty light car.
So it's pretty good power to weight.
So like you think about it's like, oh, man, if you go chase down to S 54, that probably feels very lively in that car.
So if you take the M3 variant of that S 54 and that E 46, you know how much that car weighs 3475.
That's a big.
Those are chunky girls.
And I own one of those and I've driven.
I've spent a lot of miles in an M3 846 M3.
I owned one.
Todd owns one.
I lived with one not that long ago for like a month.
They're beautiful cars.
They drive great.
But I would say as far as feeling like it's an enthusiast car, I still feel like that car is still more of a cruiser.
It's just the body of it.
It's just a chunky.
It's a solid car, though.
I mean, it feels good.
Well, it's a three series with sports car aspects.
And the M division has never been one died that either.
Yeah.
And the thing about that car and driving day to day, you know, city driving, some spirited driving here and there, perfect car.
Where that car really gets exposed if you're.
And I'm talking about minor mods and I know there's guys that have gone off the rails and like done all types of chassis rigidity on them and subframe all this stuff and then put.
Souped up motors like gutted as much crap out of the car and turn them into a track weapon.
I'm not talking about those cars.
I'm talking about the day to day run of the mill.
And this is Todd's experience because he owns one still.
He took it up to the mountains and it got absolutely destroyed by every 9 11 that he was trying to follow because the car is just too heavy for all that stuff.
And that car is not stock.
He's just.
And he has a lot of seat time in 9 11 and air cooled 9 11.
So he had a lot of.
My hearing is different.
Like, oh yeah, he was able to compare like the feels of it.
He's like, man, it just felt like it didn't have enough breaks.
It didn't have enough this.
It didn't have an it was short everywhere he could think.
So my point is, it's a lovely car.
It's a beautiful car, but it's a lot fatter of a car than this clown shoe.
But I bet you his trust would be totally different.
Is he if he never had 9 11 experience?
Probably.
But I mean, even with that, like he was comparing it from the driver's seat, but there was no denying that he wasn't able to run the same corners at the same speed as the 9 11 that he was with.
And he only did it just because he wanted to see what it was like.
Yeah, he wanted to see the comparison.
It wasn't because he had to.
He just was like, Hey, I have this car.
I've got a bunch of other 9 11s, but I kind of want to see what it's going to do.
And he's like, Holy shit, that thing's a brick like up there.
Now, again, I know you can make him a brick and all that other stuff, but and he's not driving stock 9 11s to give that car a fair shape.
And but that M three is not bone stock either.
But it's not a horse power Freaks turbo 1000 horsepower.
Exactly.
And it's, you know, it's not, you know, running some special diff and all this other stuff.
But I mean, as a, I would say a modern or classic, modern classic daily driver M three E 46 amazing car, beautiful car.
But it has that issue.
That's why this isn't in that category.
These cars aren't, you know, and then M two is in on its own platform.
Either it's a two series that they turned in.
And I think the other two cars on that list that I mentioned that more pure sports car.
Yeah.
Like more for that, even though they make the Mustang regular GT, like there's just more focus.
I was still a sports car first.
Yeah.
Same thing when they asked 2000 and only a sports car.
Yeah.
That was its only thing.
And I think that's the thing that the 9 11 shares a lot with those cars is that that it's only for that.
That's the big.
I think I agree.
That's the biggest difference.
There's a lot of other journalists smarter, more qualified, driven, more stuff than me.
And they, they always say not even just 9 11 if, and that's why Corvette so good.
Like Corvette is a Corvette.
It doesn't.
It's not like, oh, there's a three series of the version of the Corvette.
Like the entry level of that platform is still the Corvette on that.
And in that 9 11 is the same way.
Kind of like the S 2000, like S 2000, S 2000.
That's it.
It doesn't share anything else with anything else.
It doesn't know how to be anything else.
Yeah.
So I think that's where some of these are detriments, like where you go and get it.
You 46, you know, they make a three series of that car.
And this is the, the daddy of that car, you know, the M three.
And, and that is the one detriment of all of that, that platform cross-sharing.
Yeah.
And then Coops kind of guilty of that too, other than it just being a hatch.
I mean, it shares the platform with the Z platform.
So it's, it's based off of that.
So it's no different.
But I think the unique styling of this car can put you in a car for, let's just call it a good one.
We're at 30.
Yeah.
You can't say that about a lot of cars any day and, and getting an M product on top of that
and not only just an M product.
And a little vintage and a little nostalgia.
But getting like, yeah, getting you into like old school M division stuff, not like new school stuff,
like pre, we're putting M badges on M 240Is type stuff.
Like I'm talking about when the M badge actually meant something.
That's true.
So there's that final option.
I know that was an outlier.
That's not a cross comparison 9 11.
I just have a affinity for that car.
I still may own one of those cars someday.
I mean, this 9 11 pricing's got is ways heavy on my mind.
I'm sure if it's on my mind, it's got to be on you guys's mind.
And if you're in purchasing or thinking about purchasing, just want to put that food for thought out there.
I won't hate you for it.
If you go outside of 9 11, obviously the goal is there is no, there is no substitute, right?
That's cliche, but because they came up with that, but there really isn't.
And this exercise is proof in that there is no substitute for it.
I'm not agreeing with the pricing, but the market is the market.
Yeah, changes.
Yeah, the market is the market.
And honestly, we all know how this works.
And if you don't know how it works, you listen to podcasts long enough, you'll figure out how it works.
Once they start going up, they don't ever come back down.
That's just how it works, at least in the Porsche world.
Like because what happens is that becomes the new High Watermark protocol.
Like it doesn't turn into this.
Oh, well, everybody who wanted it has fallen out of it and they'll just drop like a rock now.
Like that just doesn't happen in the Porsche world.
I mean, now it does to a certain degree.
If you like Aaron mentioned, if you both pay 500,000 for a three RS, yeah, you're in over your head.
That is going to come down, but it's not going to come down in the reasonable money area.
Like I'm just talking about you personally are going to lose money.
But whatever the the market is on that car, you know, high twos low threes where that car is going to live at, it'll live there.
But because you had to have the new hotness, you lost a couple 100000 dollars on it.
That that happens with every like specialty 911.
I mean, that happened with the ours.
They were people that lost four or 500000 dollars on that car buying them.
The real people got screwed on that car were not the people who got them at because they were part of the 918 program.
It was the people who bought them second hand on that markup because those those people got them at like what?
210 and then they turn around and sold them at like 600 like literally because they have no walls on them.
They can turn around and sell it.
But so they made three times the profit on the car and then the touring came out and then that car dropped all the way back down to like 300,000.
So you lost 300 grand like overnight when the touring came out.
Those they moved eventually.
Well, if you hung on to it, yeah, they've come back up because of the collectability.
But that initial like accordion effect like the like that came back.
But just like stocks, you stay in it long enough, you'll probably be made whole again.
Like just don't don't take the money out.
Just you're like, oh my God, I lost 300 grand on it.
Just hey, ride that tide, man.
Keep staring at it.
Ride the tide.
It'll because those are back up now like and they have been for a while.
Like they're up in that 56 range took a while to get it back there.
But if you paid that, you're probably like even Steven now.
Yeah.
I don't have anything else for him.
Do you have anything else?
I guess it's going to be the marker of the vintage market.
And then that older market is about to move up again.
I think that's what's going to happen with the moves Porsche is making now.
Yeah, you mean Porsche specifically.
And it has been.
And so that's a good point.
So buy something.
Yeah.
Even if you even if you think it's overpriced, like obviously just don't go spend money for the sake of spending money.
Try to get the best deal you can still.
There's some good gaming deals out there from what I don't feel like you've got taken.
Like because that money, I don't know how many times if you're if you're an avid listener, you know this.
How many times on the show have we said, oh man, I remember when fill in the blank when I thought that was all the money in that car.
And whatever that number was, it's probably at least gone up by half, if not doubled.
I mean, think about almost every air cooled you can think about.
And that and that's happened.
Not in the sense of, oh my God, we've turned over and it's been 30 plus 40 years.
I mean, we've turned that over multiple times while this podcast has existed.
And the 993 is making a resurgence.
Which is insane.
Nobody's business right now.
I mean, it's full steam ahead.
I mean, collapsed out 150,000 mile versions are selling for $130,000.
And I'm talking about base 993 manuals and not a sexy color.
I'm talking about like yuck silver with dove gray seats, 150 grand, 100, you know, 150,000 miles, basically.
It's like, what is happening out there?
And there's just not a lot of them and all the good ones people are hanging on to.
And when you see a good one come up and you see a crazy number behind it, you know why.
And it's hard because and I mean, I'm sure you've seen it.
Have you seen what the ask is on 993 C2S's and C4S's are?
It starts with a two.
And it doesn't matter what the miles are.
It starts with a two.
It's so ridiculous.
It is. It's insane.
I mean, you think about what you can get for two 200,000.
Like even if that's not and it's not that is not like 200,000 flat.
It's usually two and change.
Yeah.
I mean, you can go by all you can anymore.
But I mean, that was Metzger RS money all day long.
Not that long ago.
I mean, I know it's not even now.
Yeah.
I know it's not anymore.
But any day of the week, I mean, you had pick a litter at that number.
Now you're now that's 991.13 RS money for a C2S C4S by pockets of money.
Younger people will be like, that's insane.
I would buy the RS instead.
Well, I mean, that apparently that air cool car still got a lot of legs in it.
Meaning like as far as price goes, right?
Because I mean, if they're that now, think about what they're going to be in another 10 years.
Is that going to be a $300,000 car?
Is that going to be a $350,000 car for a C2S?
That's insane to think about that.
I mean, I don't even my stomach's hurt.
I got poo coming out thinking about that.
I'm just going to back that one out.
No, it sucks because we love the car so much.
I hate that this is happening.
I absolutely do hate this because I think that everybody who's into this stuff.
You want everybody to have a chance to experience it.
I want everybody to have one because I feel like the community's better.
I feel like I think the health of the community, if I'm being honest,
especially like air cooled and even like GT3, Metzger early stuff.
I want to say probably like, what is it?
Maybe six or seven years ago, I feel like the health was better.
And what I mean by that is the unity of the people and like people wanting to help each other and hang out
and like purists who want to just love the cars for loving the cars and drive the cars.
I feel like we've turned a page into this collector area and I am not that.
And I know that people are and I'm not hating on them for that.
But I feel like more people are that way because the cars are so expensive.
And I get it.
You don't want to go out there and you don't want to spend $300,000 on an air cooled.
You have to acknowledge it.
And beat the brakes off the damn thing.
You've got to acknowledge the price.
But you still have to acknowledge it even if you didn't spend.
Even if you bought it for 60.
You got to acknowledge it like, well...
Well, that's why the ones you do see for sale for the guys that did spend 50 or 60 on them
are like, dude, I can go make 150 grand on this car.
I'm not that attached to it.
So that's why they do it.
And then go buy it and see.
Yeah.
I mean, they probably just get out of the game altogether.
I think so.
Can I show?
Meaning like they're getting older.
Like I'm talking about old guys that don't even drive anymore, 70 something years old.
Like where they're like, I haven't driven that car in like 10 years.
You're telling me that's a $250,000 car now.
You're like, I'll take that all day.
So now the guy who does buy it, as you said, now it's an asset, which makes total sense.
I'm not mad at them for that.
I hate that that's, that it's become that.
I'm not mad at those people for that.
Like I'm not, trust me, I'm financially driven.
I try to stretch my dollars where I can.
I would not, if I spent that kind of money to, I wouldn't have this burning desire to
go rock chip the face out of that car after I just dropped 250 on it.
What are you doing?
Yeah.
And just be like, hey, let's sandblast all the pain off the front of this car and just
make my 250 worth, you know, 100.
Like in two days, like let's just, let's knock 150 grand off this thing
in 48 hours.
How can we do it?
That's how you do it.
And I'm not mad at them because it turns, these cars were meant to be driven and it
turns them into lawn pieces now, which it sucks because it shouldn't be that way.
And it shouldn't be that way across the board.
I mean, S 2000 shouldn't cost 50, $60,000, but they do.
Yeah.
I mean, for the longest time, you could get a nice one.
And I'm not talking about years and ago.
Yeah, you could get a cherry one for $25,000.
I'm talking about like with 35,000 miles on it.
That's lived in Newport Richie's garage from they bought it at Newport Richie Honda and
it's gone and got gas and oil changes only.
And grandpa is about to die and he's going to sell his car that he decided to get because
he didn't want a Miata.
So he bought a Honda instead, like that kind of level of kept.
It's a classy move, you know, where it's a nice car.
It's not beaten on.
It's only seen like, you know, like the whole time.
It's never seen rain.
But everything's up.
It doesn't seem rain.
They haven't seen rain 10 years.
Exactly.
It's been raining.
I didn't know that.
And it's just a shame because I feel bad for anybody who's young.
That's coming up.
That's in the cars because you're, you're, yeah, but they're, but they're, I mean, they
got how we grew up.
We probably didn't pay attention to half the cars that are good now.
And then we realized for good now, there's going to be the same subset of cars that are
still somewhat affordable, the BRZs, the FRSs, things like that that we'll probably look
back on.
And that's going to be a, maybe not a phenomenal car, maybe not a standing test of time car,
like some of these, but we're not going to know it for 15 years.
Yeah.
I think those cars are good.
I don't think they'll ever carry the clout though.
That like some of these other cars are carrying though, because they, there's just too much,
like the formula comes into play in them, the abundance of them.
You think it's just too much.
You think that the production is just.
Yeah.
The saturation of the market never make those $60,000, $70,000 cars.
But the good part about that, what I was saying is I feel bad for them.
At least they can land in those cars where they can, Hey, I'm driving a cool car.
It's manual.
Yeah.
It didn't cost me a ton.
And those cars are the cars are going to have to land in because they want to land in something
vintage, like all vintage stuff is up.
Yep.
Doesn't matter what it is.
Even, you know, an E46 M3 manual with 125,000 miles on its commanding $35,000.
That was a $12,000 car six years ago.
Yep.
So it's tripled in price.
So I mean, that's still a lot of money.
Let's, let's not shake a stick at that.
Like, no, not everybody's just sitting around be like, Oh, I can just go drop 35 on an enthusiast
car and not put groceries on the table.
Yeah.
You know, cause that dad wants a fun car.
Like that's, that's still a lot of money.
Can last groceries.
You smell it.
Trump.
Hey, you can start Uber like Uber eats driving or whatever.
Right.
Like you just steal the groceries from the people that you're trying to deliver to just one French
fry at a time.
No, but yeah, it's, it's a shame because like as I age and everybody else ages, I'm sure
we all see that.
But at the same time, it's still, it doesn't make it any better.
It doesn't like, I almost wonder at what point I've thought about this more recently
because I'm thinking about a daily driver for myself.
I wouldn't have thought about it this way.
It's like, when will be the last Porsche I buy?
Like that's kind of a scary thing to think about.
And I don't mean like as a, oh, another Cayenne, like I don't count those.
Kind of like we were making fun of the Irish people saying I drive a Lambo.
I'm not, those are always be around.
Those will always be in abundance.
Yeah.
Like when am I buying my last one?
And you don't know until you do it until you're like, oh, wow, I'm, I'm not comfortable paying
anymore money after this.
And it's not even about income.
It's, it's more about principle where you're just like, I'm not dropping $300,000 on a car
that used to cost 80.
You just have 10 s 2000s.
It's okay.
I don't have a problem.
Yeah.
Well, I feel very fortunate that I own two that I have because I'm thinking after I get
my next one, there might not be another one.
Yeah.
If I even get another one.
So who will see?
I mean, again, not try to harp on it, but I'm talking about like, you know, 120,000 mile
996 is a costing $90,000.
Like that's insane to me.
And next year, they might be over a 100000
So it's like, I don't feel comfortable spending six figures on even though on paper, it's still
under its MSRP.
Well, I mean, no, it's everything shifted from the more the vintage market was just a few
years ago to the newest vintage market, which is that.
Well, all turbos are having, I think the 997s are, I don't know, even since the last podcast,
they're in the stratosphere.
I mean, we're talking cars with miles on them.
Ask on them is like 190 now.
I mean, that's not what they're getting.
That's the ask.
Yeah.
We all know that's not necessarily what they're going to get.
Talking about like cars got 75,000 miles on it.
It's not clapped out.
It's nice.
Yeah.
Got like LMS on it or something, but, you know, not breathed on very lightly.
Light mods.
Yeah.
75,000 miles.
189.
Cool.
Really?
You know what?
I'm sure.
I'm sure all of the all thoughts investments are just like everything he bought.
I know.
I'm like, I was like, of all the advice, all the juicy stuff I feed him, dude.
Like he makes so much money on the car that I'm just like, you should get this.
You should.
Everything he has.
Yeah.
Like I'm not trying to take anything away from him.
The guy's sharp.
He's smart.
I was just thinking about that.
I was like, wait a minute.
I was like, I know we talked about it and he bought one.
We talked about it and he bought one.
I was like, I think the cars of the cars that I have suggested that he should make moves
on.
Yeah.
I would say, and I'm not going to name each one because that's like, you know, that's
inappropriate and people don't need to know all his business.
But I would say of all the cars that I had suggested him to make moves on, I would say
the least amount that he's equity from his purchase point on that car is maybe plus 20.
Hey, if you guys need my services, let me know.
I charge a little bit of fee.
I'll let you know.
It makes me, I mean, and to put it in perspective, he's on that car for maybe two years.
So I made 10 grand a year on that car just by having it.
So $3,000 and then the, the highlight miss, I think is.
He's probably plus 60 or 70 on a few others.
Cover time.
Yeah.
I mean, if you have the portfolio to make the moves, I'm not kidding.
But again, like that just shows you that that's expanded different things too.
And that's just, I'm operating like I have his checkbook.
If I did, like everything he has, I would have.
I just don't have that, that I just don't have that bankroll because every single car
I suggested to them, I know he knows this.
I wanted, I want those cars, but like, you know, we're at different places in our life.
And that's okay.
That happens.
But it says timing, like, I guess we'll close with this timings everything because.
You don't necessarily have to buy, but if you buying it because you love it, it will,
especially in the Porsche world, it'll eventually make money.
Now, say that with a caveat.
Don't get crazy and be like, oh, I'm buying a 1998 based Boxster.
It's got 175,000 miles on it.
And like someday this car is going to be worth 50 grand.
And they've moved.
Yeah.
So use that lightly with that.
I'm out.
See you.
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Peacart Talk.
Connect with us on Instagram at Peacart Talk or online at PeacartTalk.com.
About this episode
P-Car Talk Podcast tackles Porsche’s lineup trimming—calling the Taycan “on the chopping block” and debating how far 911 and 718 variants get streamlined. The hosts connect these moves to pricing, allocations, and “funneling” buyers, then pivot to what people can buy instead of a 911 when prices climb. They also cover Goodwood Festival of Speed coming to the US, focusing on the hill-climb core and the logistics of making it work stateside.
Porsche is streamlining, and the rumor mill says the Taycan, Cayenne Coupe, and possibly the 718 Boxster and Cayman are all on the chopping block, with the 911 lineup likely losing some variants too. Nobody is going to shed a tear over the Taycan, and the Cayenne Coupe will get a few mourners at best, but losing the 718s would sting for a lot of enthusiasts. The funniest part is that we have been saying Porsche needed to do exactly this for a while now, both recently and way back, so either they are finally listening or somebody at Weissach has really good podcast recommendations.
Goodwood Is Coming to America
Goodwood Festival of Speed just wrapped and it remains the single best car event either of us has ever been to, hands down. The big news out of this year's event is that Goodwood is officially bringing the festival to the US, though details on location and format are still under wraps. Given how protective Goodwood is of its brand and how much work they have put into building that reputation, there is no chance they phone in the US version. Our money is on a West Coast location, and the hill climb has to be part of it, because without that centerpiece it just is not Goodwood anymore.
What Else Gets You Close to a 911?
With 911 pricing where it is now, we went down the rabbit hole of what else out there gets you in the neighborhood without the Porsche premium. Nothing replicates the rear-engine layout or that specific balance, but a few cars get close in spirit. The S2000 AP1 is a blast, 2,800 pounds, high-revving, gutless on torque but rewarding on balance with true 50/50 weight distribution, though clean examples are climbing in price fast. The GT350 is the consolation prize with more muscle, 526 horsepower at 8,250 rpm out of that flat-plane V8, but it is a heavier car at 3,750 pounds with a 54/46 split, so stick to the later models since the early ones had documented engine issues. Then there is the F87 M2, 3,450 pounds, 365 horsepower with real tuning headroom since it is turbocharged, 51.9/48.1 balance, sitting in that 35-50k range. And we had to talk about the clown shoe, the BMW M Coupe, which barely counts as a real production run but has earned full cult status anyway.
Grab a drink, settle in, and we will see you next time. Full event calendar is always up at pcartalk.com, and if you want more, find us at Patreon.com/pcartalk and @pcartalk.
