The Porsche 911 is a very famous sports car that has been around for a long time. It's known for its unique shape and powerful performance, making it a favorite among car enthusiasts.
The Porsche 356 is an early sports car made by Porsche, known for being light and fun to drive. It was one of the first cars the company made after it was founded.
Term
964
The '964' is a version of the Porsche 911 made between 1989 and 1994, known for its improved features and design.
The 'S trim' is a sportier version of a car that usually has better performance and more features than the standard model. It's like getting a more powerful and better-equipped version of the same car.
Porsche Sport Exhaust is a feature that makes the car sound louder and sportier. It helps the car perform better and gives it a more exciting sound when you drive.
PASM is a special system in some Porsche cars that helps control how the car's suspension works. It makes the ride smoother or sportier depending on what you want.
In Porsche cars, the base model is the simpler version, good for daily driving, while the S model is the sportier version with better performance. It’s like having a regular and a sport version of the same car.
The Porsche Macan is a small luxury SUV that is designed to be fun to drive while also being practical for families. It has a nice interior and lots of tech features, making it comfortable for everyday use. People talk about it because it’s a great option for those who want a sporty car that can also carry more people or stuff.
GTS is a label used for some cars that means they are sportier and have better performance than the regular versions. It's like a special upgrade for more fun driving.
RS is a label for cars that are made to be really good at racing. They are lighter and handle better than regular cars, making them more fun to drive fast.
The Porsche 911 Turbo S is one of the fastest and most powerful versions of the 911 car, with a turbo engine that helps it go really fast. It also has all-wheel drive, which means it can grip the road better, especially in bad weather. People talk about it because it combines luxury with amazing speed.
The Porsche 911 GT3 is a super sporty version of the regular 911 car, built for people who love driving fast and want a car that feels like a race car. It has a powerful engine and special features that help it go really fast on tracks. It's talked about because it's one of the best cars for performance lovers.
The Porsche Cayman is a smaller sports car that is fun to drive and has its engine in the middle, which helps it handle really well. It’s a bit cheaper than the famous 911 but still gives you that exciting Porsche feel. People talk about it because it’s a great choice for someone who wants a sporty car without going all out.
Ceramic brakes are special brakes made from ceramic materials. They work better than regular brakes, especially when it comes to handling heat and lasting longer.
Tramlining happens when your car's tires follow the grooves in the road, making the steering feel like it's pulling. This is more common with wider tires compared to narrower ones.
S cars are special versions of Porsche vehicles that are made for better performance and handling. They usually have upgrades that make them faster and more fun to drive.
The Porsche 944 is a sports car made by Porsche in the 1980s and early 90s. It is popular for its good handling and performance, making it a fun car to drive.
The Porsche 718 Cayman GT4 is a super sporty version of the Cayman that is built for speed and handling on race tracks. It has a stronger engine and special features that make it even more fun to drive. People talk about it because it’s one of the best cars for those who love driving fast.
An air cooled motor is an engine that uses air to keep it cool instead of water. It's simpler but can sometimes be less powerful than water cooled engines.
Tuning is when you change settings in a car's engine to make it run better and faster. Sometimes, it can give the car more power without needing to change any parts.
A 'base model' is the simplest version of a car, without extra features or upgrades. It's usually cheaper but may not have the same performance as higher trims.
The Porsche 986 is the first version of the Boxster, a two-seater sports car made by Porsche. It was made from the late 1990s to the early 2000s and is known for being fun to drive.
The Porsche Carrera GT is a very rare and expensive sports car that is famous for being super fast and well-built. It has a powerful V10 engine and is made from lightweight materials, which helps it perform amazingly. People talk about it because it’s one of the most sought-after cars for collectors.
The BMW M3 is a fast and sporty version of the regular BMW 3 Series car, designed for people who love to drive. It's known for its powerful engine and great handling, making it fun to drive on both roads and tracks. The E46 model is especially popular because many people think it’s one of the best versions.
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Welcome to Renthusiast Radio, the podcast where Will and Derek navigate the winding roads of
Porsche Obsession, exploring the good and the bad of Porsche ownership.
Grab your favorite beverage, pull up a chair and join us Renthusiast Radio because life's too
short not to talk about Porsches. Welcome to Renthusiast Radio. I'm Will.
And I'm Derek. And today's topic is one that I think sort of resembles,
and this is going to sound really weird, Derek. I'm going to just tell you to stick with me.
This is in a way the same dynamic that you see between like Boxter owners and 9-11 owners.
So what am I talking about? We have two trim levels of Porsche that we're going to be
looking at. We're going to be talking about a base trim level versus an S trim level and why people
would buy either one. And Derek and I will, I guess, give you kind of an overview of what each
of those trim levels are. We'll talk about it philosophically, you know, what each trim level
brings to you, which advantages it has. And then maybe we will land on an idea, Derek,
which one is a better choice. So yeah, man, base versus S.
The first few videos that I put up on 11 after 9 really talked about my base Boxter and how,
in many ways, I thought it was better than the S version. And I have gotten feedback now for
months and months of people heralding that as absolutely the driver's choice and other people
saying, you're insane. If you don't get an S, you are crazy for all of these reasons. And so it
was very much on my mind to demystify this for some people that are new to the brand. They're
looking at their first Porsche and they're saying, well, you know, one costs more, one costs less,
but one's better, one's faster, one's not as fast. And, you know, having owned,
I mean, I probably own more S's than I have bases. I think it's good for you and I to
kind of talk through our experiences on that. And, you know, what does it mean if
it's going to be your first Porsche or what does it mean if it's going to be your 15th Porsche?
You know, what should you consider? Before we get into that, check out Will's Renthousias
YouTube channel. He continues to pump out fantastic content on his 997 most recently,
his 997.2 and some of the work that's been done there. Check out my YouTube channel,
11 After 9. That's 11 After 9 All Spelled Out. And Will, our audio podcast on Apple
podcast and Spotify and all other places you listen to podcasts, it's been killing it. It
continues to get subscribers week after week. And I'm really happy about that.
Dude, it's, it is really, you know, flattering and an honor that this content seems to be
landing at least with some percentage of the Porsche enthusiast world. You and I just said,
hey, like, let's start this thing and just see what happens. And, you know, for me, it's almost
like therapeutic to get on here and shoot debris with you about these cars. Sometimes I'm like,
God, I don't feel like sitting down and, and getting on this, this platform and talking Porsche
interrupts some of the things that I got going on or whatever. But every time I come on here
with you, man, like I walk away feeling great, feeling energized. And I think that's about
the hobby. So I guess people out there that are listening can probably relate, you know,
it's just something therapeutic about talking about these cars with your buds.
Yeah, stuck in traffic, heading into Boston, cup of coffee in your hand.
And, and you're just kind of thinking Porsche. And also what I really love is the feedback we
continue to get, both on the audio side and the YouTube side, as far as comments and people
really jumping in and giving their two cents on all the inane stupid stuff that we talk about.
So our deepest thanks for that. But we have a lot to cover today when it comes to the
base in the S discussion will, because I'm not going to say this is co-compepsy, but it's, it's,
it really is the discussion of from a financial standpoint from a performance standpoint,
which way do you go? And I thought maybe the best thing to do is talk about just real briefly,
why does Porsche have a base in an S. So this goes back to the 356, you know, you could get
a base or a super, certainly those long hoods, early 911s, you had a number of different flavors,
TE and S, you can get like, you know, the hot-rodded version or the base version,
the touring version, stuff like that. In the mid to late 70s and 80s, correct me if I'm wrong,
Will, but like the turbo kind of became the S, right? They just had the, the 2.7 liter or
the three liter or the 3.2 liter, there was no special version up through the 964. And
then it was, I think the 993 was kind of the first time they came back with the S. Am I wrong on that?
Yep. And then after that, I think Porsche realized that you could have an entry level car
and then a more, you know, hopped up car. And so why did they do that? I think that
they needed an entry point for coming into 911s. You needed kind of a step up for the model line.
And so of course, from a financial standpoint, getting in in the quote,
less expensive way gives you an upgrade path for repeat buyers, right? You might buy the base,
but then you're going to come back for the S, which is fantastic. You know, the,
I also think that in many ways it was, it kind of protects their performance image,
because if you have a base that is more of an everyday driver sports car,
but then you have an aspirational S, which is, you know, faster, has better equipment,
more track focused, more Porsche, you know, that gives people, that gives people like this idea of
like, oh, well, I want that. And so I think immediately, you know, from a package standpoint,
people are excited for the S. And honestly, it's kind of a way for
Porsche to package in a lot of options into a trim. Because if you have a base, and as we know,
when you buy a Porsche, it's all a la carte. You know, if they package an S with a lot
of those things already in it, well, that's in sometimes with a small cost savings versus buying
it, you know, individually, they go, oh, well, I'm going to do that, because that's a better value.
And it's also more Porsche. The other thing I thought about, which was interesting of why they
have a base and an S, is that I think it might simplify their production, right? If they have
reconfigured cars, that makes it easier on the back end for, you know, people that want
these common, you know, like PASM or Porsche Sport Exhaust or these things that people buy all the
time will just put them in a model and just buy that model. So it's easier for dealers to have it
on the lot. And I think Porsche kind of says, like, hey, base, base Porsches are for more
sport daily use. And the S is if you want the sharper kind of more focused, more Porsche
and character. So that's kind of my thought on why they did that. I know there's many
other reasons, mostly financial, mostly marketing. But what do you think of that? Well,
yeah, I mean, I think once again, you're bringing in a lot of background knowledge
and data and information that's reaching back over the years. And I, you know, honestly,
you have a better grasp of that than I do. And I don't, you know, there are people out there
that are way smarter than I am about this, but I just look at it from a financial perspective.
And, you know, how does how does Porsche drive you up the chain to grab the cars that I
would guess help them capture more margin? So they're putting these, you know,
putting all these options on there that are just oh, so sexy. So if I'm, if I'm at an S,
I know we're not talking about GTS, but if I'm at an S for only X number of tens of thousands
of dollars, I could be in a GTS, then I got bragging rights and all the features.
So I kind of just wonder about how much of that is the psychology of it.
For sure, there are tangible performance benefits for each as you move up beyond the base.
But, you know, and that goes back to the configurator too, because I have experienced
configuring a car. Man, Porsche is masterful at pulling you through and getting you to add this
and add that. And so I suspect you're right too, from a manufacturing perspective,
you know, packaging up an S so you're not having to piece together the features that would make
up an S probably allows them to be more efficient too when they're making, making the cars or
ordering parts or anyway, I'm out of my depth, but that's what comes to my mind.
Yeah. And also, they're really good about like on the configurator, if you're buying a newer car,
you know, there are certain options that they don't have available for a base and it's only,
you can only upgrade if you're on an S. And so like if you want, you know, whatever that is,
rear-wheel steer or whatever, depending on the year, well, then you need the S if you
want to get that option. And they're really smart about that. The other thing that's
interesting is a lot of times, if you get a certain package, it deletes other things
that you can't get. And so again, it's just a way of moving you upmarket, right? And you've seen that.
And it's great. I love it. I mean, I'm a psychology guy there. So I really enjoy
what that does to your brain as you're trying to pick and choose and put things together.
And ultimately, it makes you spend more money.
And I'm going to stave off the folks in the comments that are saying, well,
you guys aren't talking about the GTS or the Turbo or the Turbo S or the RS.
We're going to keep it kind of just out of GT cars. We're just going to keep it base
in this discussion, just kind of talking about where we think for probably the majority of people
that are listening to this, that either own Porsche or want to buy Porsche, they're going to be
choosing between the base and the S because the GTS is a financial step up from the S,
actually a pretty big step up from the S. And then you get into the GT3s or the RS cars
or anything like that. And so we're probably not going to talk about that. Also,
this conversation that we're going to have also is applicable to the other model lines
in Porsche. It's not just 911s. I know we kind of default will to talking about 911s, but
a lot of this is part and parcel with McCons, Caymans, Boxters, Cayans, you name it.
And the one thing I will say, I think I said that the 911s didn't have an S in the 80s. That's
true, but the transaxle cars did. You had the base and then you had the Ss.
And so there was a differentiation there of like more sport purpose, more power and more
better. So I think from a psychology standpoint, I think that's the reason Porsche does the base
and the S. All right, man, let's get into this thing. And I'm a pretty clever guy. Here's why.
We want to talk about whether you embrace the base or you say yes only to the S.
Oh, you like that?
We could have, we could have a thumbnail for this podcast. That would be it. Holy cow.
And you know, I set that aside as a kind of tongue-in-cheek and I will say this, one thing I
learned. So sometimes I feel compelled, like if I'm going to make a point to paint a little bit
of a background on this thing, but I recently owned and sold a base Boxter 987.1.
And, you know, Derek's the one that really turned me on to the idea of testing out a base.
And so I had that car for a period of time and I, it was really kind of an experiment for me.
And I tested it out and loved the car. And I think, you know, my biggest lesson was I needed
to get into that car and all jokes aside, embrace it for what it was. You know,
you can't get into a base and, you know, try to pretend you're getting the experience that an
ass will deliver to you. You know, maybe you throw tunes on cars, maybe, you know, you modify them a
bit, you know, the base cars to get them up in performance. But I do think you got to embrace
a base for what it is and appreciate it for what it is. And we can definitely talk about
that when we talk about kind of driving characteristics and where we think the base
slots in. And also going back to that apt analogy you made at the beginning where you talk about
it's a lot like buying a Boxter versus a 911. Like, how much is it psychology where you feel
like a 911 is ultimate Porsche or the only Porsche? Whereas, you know, people are like,
if you're going to get a Porsche, you get an ass. Or do you realize a Boxter might be a
better driving car? It might be more Porsche in terms of connectedness. And you just get a
base because maybe that's the same way. Brilliant point. You know, it's funny,
regardless, and we can talk about the agendas behind why people, why I think people buy bases.
And I think that there are good reasons and that there are other reasons. But,
you know, when I was thinking about that and I threw out that intro and maybe I wasn't really
clear enough, but you know, it's funny. You have base people that are a fervent subculture of,
hey, don't you ever talk smack about a base because you're just missing out and the base
is bad ass. And then the ass guys come in and be like, what are you talking about? You
just bought that because you can't afford an ass. And I mean, that's what you see. So the
Boxter guys are like, man, you know what? You don't know what you're missing. Boxter is the best.
And then you've got the 911 guys saying, yeah, I appreciate a Boxter, but I don't want to own one.
So, you know, I don't know. It's just funny in the world of Porsche how you get that dynamic
going on between models and between thought processes. So let's talk a little bit about
what it really means between a base and an ass. And these are very general points I just want
to make because again, there's a lot of people out there will that don't know they're like, okay,
you're saying base, you're saying ass, but what does that really mean as far as the difference
between the cars? So here's kind of a general thing between the two different models. I think
the first we both agree has has to do with the power output. Again, kind of talking about 911s,
generally between the base and the ass, you have a liter difference of like maybe 0.2 to 0.5
liters. So it's a bigger engine. So more horsepower, more torque. I don't know, like just kind of see
the pants, I usually feel like it's somewhere between 30 and 50 horsepower is usually kind of the gap
between a base and an ass model of a Porsche, especially a 911. And because we move into
the turbocharged era in 2017, it's actually the same size motor, but they have bigger
turbos, intercooler changes, software changes. And again, kind of keeping that 50-plus horsepower
kind of gap between the two cars. I know like when they test them well, it's like,
what are they like, maybe half a second quicker or sometimes even less. So in the turbocharged
world, that's kind of where we land. It's the same literage, but there's a lot of
performance enhancements when it comes to the accoutrements around the engine.
And does the discussion for a little bit later is, does that mean that the base and the ass are
a little bit closer in terms of no ability? Well, I mean, we'll see, because I think I
can make the case throughout our discussion that the newer a Porsche you get,
the more close or the less differentiation there is when it comes to power,
maybe not some of the other due dads. I'm going to interrupt your tech spec. I'm going to interrupt
your tech spec lesson real quick. I just want to say this. I would really want to ask a question.
I think I know the answer, but the 991.2 and the 992, same motor, right?
Same three liter motor. Okay. Yeah, I'm going to hammer you later, but let's go.
All right. I'm looking forward to it. Other things where the S is an upgrade,
usually the S has bigger brakes from a rotor standpoint, from a piston and caliper standpoint,
stopping power is increased. You on, especially the earlier versions had the ability to put on
ceramic brakes, where you didn't really have that choice with the base wheels and tires.
Base cars normally have smaller diameter rims, narrower tires where the S models
usually have fatter tires. The rear wheels are bigger from a withstand point. Of course,
added grip, better contact patch, you might make the point that maybe they tramline a little bit more.
Maybe the audience doesn't know what tramlining is. Essentially, what it means is the wider
your front tires are, the more they want to follow the grooves in the road. If you have
bumps and you have broken pavement, the steering wheel pulls in your hand because
the tires want to follow the dips in the road, where a more narrow tire sometimes doesn't.
Cooling, a lot of times the S cars have a little bit better cooling solution because
the thought process is they're more sport-oriented. They might spend more time at the track,
even though that's arguable. From a chassis and handling difference, they might have firmer
suspension. Generally, S is, again, more sport-oriented. They might have Porsche
options that confirm up the suspension, where base cars oftentimes don't.
Generally, the S's get more tech. Like I mentioned earlier, rear axle steering,
and a lot of people just think that they're just a more Porsche Porsche.
I think that that's the difference. I will make the claim right now that I think
in cars that have under 200 horsepower, like your 944s of the 80s, your 986 Boxsters versus
Boxster S's, I think the difference in drivability really does make a huge difference when you move
to an S, when it's under 200 horsepower. But I'm going to make the case, I think as we talk,
that I think the S's are superfluous. I think the bases are a better value and a better driving
car. Go ahead. Will I see you writing things down to slaughter me in this discussion? Go.
Well, no. Honestly, no, this is not the part where I'm going to try to slaughter you.
I just think about this. For me, I mean, I look at, and it sounds so,
sometimes I struggle with calling this the quote, hobby. But I haven't really, I mean,
this is what people talk about when they talk about this, whatever the hell it is we do
with these cars. And people also talk about the journey. And I think about my journey,
and I got into this game. I think I had my first Porsche in 2017, 2017. And so here we are in almost
2026. So I mean, by no means am I Porsche royalty or some of these guys that have been into it
since their dad took them out in the 356. And they've been into it ever since their whole
lives. But I mean, I have collected a fair amount of experience. And I often kind of reflect
on my first phase of ownership and then what I'll call like middle phases of ownership and then
my more recent phase of ownership, which I think looks a little bit different than it did when
I got into this world. And so when I got into this world, I was on fire for, I just wanted to get
in. And I was buying the hype. And I'd read online. And then people were saying, you only
want the S. And I'm like, hell yeah, I want the S, the base is lame. And then you go
through the middle phase where you're learning and you're spending money in my case on air
cooled and maybe you're an idiot and you think you can improve what Porsche built.
And, you know, you're experimenting. And then you get into, at least for me, I mean, this is just
my experience, right? What I, and I shudder to say this, but it's almost like a maturity in the
hobby where you begin to appreciate each car for what it is. And then you learn to embrace
the base. You know, and that said, I mean, I did have to get out of my system trying a
number of different generations and a number of different trim levels. And I made a lot of
mistakes. And I found a lot of wins. But ultimately, I landed on an appreciation for the base cars.
So I know that I see like little beams of light coming off of you right now, because you're very
self satisfied and excited that you converted me to the, to the, to the base cars. But that,
as you were just talking, I mean, I come at it from a personal experience perspective.
And that's what's happened to me. And I don't know what's next for me. But,
yeah, so
Why have you never owned a 993 Carrera S? Is it financial?
Dude, I mean, I'm gonna make this up and somebody might throw some darts at me only because
my information might be outdated because I don't follow the market. What are you paying like an
extra 50 to 60,000 for? For what are you getting? A little bit of a wider rear end?
Correct? A little bit of extra horsepower, not meaningful. You do get some body
what's the word I'm looking for, trim, you know, a bumper, a bumper side skirts, and which I do
think dramatically improve the car, the car's look shape of exhaust. Well, yeah, there you go. So,
so sorry, you know, so I'm just somebody who if I feel like it's a reach financially and I've
done this too with the nine six four, I've concluded that nine six four is not for me
because the return on dollars just isn't there. I can get that similar a similar
experience for much less money. Same goes with the Carrera S. Do I want to sit in
my garage and stare at the rear end of a Carrera S a 993? Hell yeah. Do I want to pay $60,000 to do
that? Nah, I just don't. I have chased one a couple of times, but I just would lose my
enthusiasm when you start seeing the numbers now they keep coming up. So it's probably a goodbye.
But that would be my answer there, Derek. That's why are they are they goodbye at $170,000
that I'm seeing because the gap it used to be, you know, even 10 years ago when you jumped
in the hobby, right? I think I want to say that I had my 993. I bought it like maybe 15 years ago,
but you got in 10 years ago and 993. And at that point, it was still a 20 grand difference,
I think probably around then, like you could buy that car for, I don't know, maybe 40,
and you in an S was like 65 or 70. And now it's like you can buy a base for 80 or 90,
100. And the S is like 160, 170. So like the gap is even wider now. Is that myth? Or is that,
is there anything there? Again, I don't follow it closely. When I say it's a goodbye,
what I mean is if you're a financial, like if you have a financial agenda in terms of enjoying
the car and then flipping it out and making a pop, I mean, I think that's probably why it's
a goodbye if you want to park that capital there. But God, man, I start to think about
$170,000. Yeah. And I'm not a multi-brand person. I mean, I like vintage Toyota,
which is a totally different world. And, you know, I do come from a BMW background,
but I'm pretty, pretty pure Porsche. But if I were multi-brand, I start looking around,
I say, Hey, man, like what kind of $170,000 behind me? And, you know, a 993 Carreras is cool,
but I can get in for $110,000 in a C2, which this is what I believe to be true,
is actually a better car because you're not carrying around that extra rubber in the back
and blah, blah, blah, at least the things I've read not experienced because I've never driven
them. So, you know, there's that. And for me too, I go back to, I had a 1969 911T hot rod. It was
Aussie blue. I mean, the thing was sick. It was a Ripper. It was an MFI motor. It was so mean.
People saw that car on my channel and they just drooled. I sold it after experiencing it for a
period of time. It was not a really long hold for me. And I'll, should I share the
financials on this one, Derek? I think it might be real. The audience wants to know, Will. Come on,
it's been long enough. I acquired that car for $115,000. I want to say I put about $20,000 into it
to make it what I wanted. I mean, there's some things with that car. It was great.
It was great bones. The guy that I bought it from had done a wonderful job getting rust,
dealt with. So, when I got it, it was a wonderful car. There were just some mods and
ends that needed to be tidied up and I wanted to dial it in and make it mine. So, like
brass oil line and wheels and maybe tweak out the interior and put some different seats in it,
remove a roll bar that was in it, blah, blah, blah. Feature the car on my channel.
So, let's see, $115 plus $20. What does that give us? $135? $135. Thank you.
Yeah, you got it. That car went on during a trailer and it brought $167.5 plus the fees,
right? That was in the heyday post-COVID? Yeah. Yeah, admittedly, sure. I mean,
it was during the bonkers price period. Value was in the eye of the beholder,
and so that car is obviously worth what was paid for it. But that said, man, for me,
I started looking around like the proceeds were spread out. I had to pay commission on it
to the gentleman who handled it on that. But once I had that, I'm like looking around,
I'm saying, what could I buy? And I landed on a 981 GT4 because I was able to snag a 981 GT4
and bank, frankly, a meaningful amount of extra cash for a future purpose.
And so, where am I going with all that? You ask about the Quera S versus the Quera 993.
At a certain point, you're just like, what could I get for that amount of money that is
like obviously a better car, objectively speaking. I have a 981 GT4 now. It's racing
hell. It's beautiful. I drove it this morning. I mean, I love the 993, but the GT4 for the money
is such a better return in terms of smiles per mile. Yeah. And I do think that the conversation
is very different when we're talking about base versus ass. I think we really are talking much
more in the water cooled world because, I mean, to extract horsepower from an air cooled engine
is extremely expensive. Your dollar per horsepower in an air cooled motor is so expensive compared to
a water cooled motor. And that's why I think if you look at the Long Hood 911s and S is worth
so much more than a T, or if you look at a 993, the S is worth so much more than a base,
it's because those motors from the factory are operated and those horsepower's
are part and parcel of that. When you get into the water cooled world, a lot of those
constraints go away. And 996 S versus base, it's still expensive to get a lot more horsepower. You
have to go up in leaderage in the motor usually and rebuild it, but it's still way cheaper than
air cooled. And in the turbo world, it's sometimes just as easy as flashing a tune
and grabbing an extra 50 horsepower out of a car. And so I do want to bring the conversation
a little bit more back to maybe where our audience is of like, hey, I'm looking at a 997
base versus S or I'm looking at a 991 base versus S. I'm looking at a Boxster base versus S.
What is the height? And so this is the portion of the podcast, Will, where I am going to make my
case and you are going to agree with me every single point I make. And we are going to
conclude the podcast in five minutes about how the base is a far better car than an S. Ready?
I mean, I think that we have established that you're smarter than I am, and so I can't win.
Now, that's a bumper sticker that we need to make. Let's do that.
No, no, no. We need a bumper sticker that says I lose money on cars. It's what I do.
It's what I do.
That's what we need to create.
Yeah.
Wait, what was the saying you said earlier about the base versus the S? Say yes to the S.
Embrace the base or say yes only to the S.
And I used to be very much that. Listen, like you said earlier, you go on the forums and the forums
are like, get an S. Don't be a weenie. That's the real Porsche. A base is slow. A base is for
people that can't afford a Porsche. You don't know what you're missing. And so I have had 997
Ss. I have, I'm sorry, I've had 991 Ss. I've had more Boxster Ss than I have base
Boxsters. I definitely, I understand what they're saying and there is more power. And are there
instances where an S is a better car? Very few. And I kind of feel, I'm going to make a statement
right now and it's probably going to be a little bit controversial, Will. I think that if you are
coming into Porsche that you go for the S because the world tells you an S is a better
car. But if you've owned a number of Porsche and you've, and you really know what they are to drive,
I feel like real drivers of Porsche actually tend more towards the base than the S.
Yeah, man. I mean, I was just writing something similar down. It's like,
was it Ricky Bobby? He just said, I want to go fast. Yes. The guy comes in, he says,
hey, I want to buy my first 911. I want to go fast. And so he's like chasing the S.
I mean, on top of everything you just talked about all this stuff on the forms, man. And I was
that guy. I mean, I'll just call it like it is. Like it's an S snob thing. It's an uninformed S snob
thing. Now, you may sample all the different foods on the table, including different, you know,
base level cars in different generations. And you may still say, hey, the S is for me. And
I'm still there with certain cars. But I think that the base is kind of one of these,
if you know, you know, it requires more skill, more engagement, generally speaking,
to get the most out of the car. In my experience, you can push it harder,
992 maybe not. But the base cars, you can push them harder on public roads and you're not
doing this blistering speed where you're clearly going to go to jail if you get caught.
I mean, they're fast, especially the modern ones, but you get what I'm saying.
And that's five minutes now. Okay, good. Thank you. There you go, audience.
Will, those were excellent points. And those are some of the points
that I want to make when it comes to a base.
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It is, I feel like, and this is not every model, like I made, I made the caveat of,
like, you know, if you're under 200 horsepower, like those 944s, the S is a better car.
If you are driving a base 986, the S is a better car. As you get newer, I feel like that's
better. But I mean that, well, because, all right, I am of the personal opinion that 3,350
horsepower is really all the horsepower you need to drive cars where I am. And I'm about to make
the case that, of course, it has everything to do with use in your use case. Like, if I lived
out in California and I had canyon roads that were long sweepers, I would maybe want some more
horsepower, because to go fast is more interesting out there. But if I'm in the curvy roads in the
canyons, or if I'm out here in New Hampshire, where, you know, the speed limit is 45, the roads are
really twisty, the pavement isn't great, give me an S all day, because I can work that car,
I can shift through the gears back and forth, and it's more of a symphony, and I'm the
conductor. Whereas an S is so fast that I can only, I'm short shifting because of the power,
and I'm not getting everything out of the car. Yeah, hey, just as an item of clarification,
you had said, hey, everything you were just talking about, you said the S was the right
application. So I just want to clarify for the audience, I think Derek just accidentally
misspoke. The base is better. You had said S. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, no, all good, dude.
That's organic conversation. We've been yammering at each other for 30 minutes and don't sweat it.
No, what I mean is, no, okay, I'm sorry if I misspoke, but what I'm saying is if your use
application is like long sweepers, where speed is a thing, S, absolutely. People hit me all the
time like, oh, the base sucks on the track. You need an S. I'm not going to disagree with
that because that comes down to torque and pulling out of corners on a track and S is faster,
a GTS is even better, a GT3 is even better. But for the roads, the use case that I have,
I can drive at 6 or 7 tenths, I can use 80% of my car, whereas if I have an S, I have to drive at
5 tenths, and even then I'm illegal, and I'm extracting 60% or 40% of the car because it's
so capable, it's too fast for the back roads that I do. Here's the other thing,
because of the smaller leaderage in a base motor, they are so sweet when you rev them out.
I had a comment on one of my, I think it was a short I put up on 11 after 9 where I was just
driving the back roads of New Hampshire. It was fall. I videotaped myself just like,
I think I was at maybe 5,500 RPM and some guys goes, will you please shift?
And I looked at that comment and I just laughed because that's kind of the,
when you have an S, like you never get there, but when you have a base, you are playing in the
upper rev range where the car sings, and it is so responsive, and it's so talkative
that you live above 5,000 RPM and the car was built for that. And because of the smaller motor,
it loves to rev at those higher revs. But in the mid range, yeah, the S wins.
Like if you are coming from a stop sign, you do have a greater pull
with an S, but as you drive them, I feel like the base really comes into its own. You're shifting
a lot more, you have to short shift with the S. Also, you're feeling at lower speed,
I think an S can get you into a lot of trouble if you're a new driver,
because the cars go so fast, they can be so fast, the brakes are so capable
that you approach a lot of corners a lot faster than you feel comfortable will.
And that's not a great thing, especially if you're kind of new to the car
or haven't been driving these cars for a long time. I mean, you can get yourself into a lot
of trouble because these cars are so dang fast, especially the newer ones.
Yeah, man. I mean, I think just to put a fine point on your, what you just said about
the base is like, to me, it's, it falls into the world of it's more fun to drive a slow
car fast than a fast car slow. And to me, that's also very representative of the experience
with the air-cooled cars. Wind them out, leave the revs high, you look down, you're not going
crazy fast, and it requires skill. It's exhilarating as hell, man. There's a lot of
theater going on when you got those motors revved out like that. And the S is not
necessarily going to replicate that. I do want to talk about something.
So I have a 2017 991.2 Carrera S. I have owned a 992.1 Carrera T. So the Carrera T has the
base motor in it. There's a couple of things that are a little bit different, but fundamentally,
in my view, it's a marketing package around a base car. Might get some hate, but that's what it is.
I had the chance, so I owned the 991.2 S trim. Same motor as the 992 Carrera T.
So owned the 991.2, got out of it because I got an opportunity to buy a T and order it
and configure it and blah, blah, blah. Owned that car for like, I don't even know,
3,000 miles and dumped it because I found it boring. And then I ran back and I bought
back my 991.2 from the dude I had sold it to. I will firmly maintain that in the case of that
3-liter turbo motor because I owned them back to back. The S is for all applications,
including back roads ripping, the better option. It is more fun. It has more torque. It sticks
you to your seat. You can definitely manage it. Now, I don't want to toot my own horn. It
requires skill. I mean, I've taken that car into the mountains, elevation changes,
switchbacks, blind curves. It requires skill to play that S turbo motor in a way that you don't
feel like you're going to go off the side of the mountain. But that's where I'm going to push back,
man. I mean, I don't know. I did not find that 992 T to be exhilarating. Now,
we talked about this in a previous episode. Actually, I don't want to get into it. There
are like physics reasons why it just didn't really stick you to your seat. It was a fast
car. But there was just something missing that I find in that S. And that S sits in my
garage to this day. I put 20,000 miles on it. So, I mean, I'm just telling you based on my
experience, in the case of the newer motors, the S is the right choice, if you can do.
So that's, yeah, no, and that's a great point to make well. And I don't have the
level of experience driving or owning the newer 911s like you do. I will say this,
and I alluded to it earlier in this podcast, that when you get into the turbocharged era,
the gap between base and S becomes a lot less because the things you can do to these motors
to make a base more like an S is a lot easier. Sometimes just a tune. And so,
you went from a base 992.2 to an S991.2. This is number salad for everyone out there,
but essentially like a mid 2020s 911 to a late 2000s 911. While it's more or less,
the motor is very similar, you do have to, I think, play in all the different suspension
and go fast parts in your ass for sure. But, you know, man, the 992 is also just like a bigger car.
It's more of a GT car. Whereas the 991s, I feel like are, they're just, I don't know,
I was just about to say not as comfortable. That's not true. I just feel like,
I feel like the 992s that I've been in, they just feel more of like a car car,
where the 991 is more of a sports car. Yeah, they feel, they feel sedanish. Now,
now I'm going to say this, I want to challenge a point you just made,
and I would love for you to overcome this challenge or beat me back. But do you have data?
The size-wise isn't that different. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. Now, I just took your point. Yeah.
Yeah, because so I have a video on my channel somewhere, Berry Deep,
where I had bought back that 991.2 and it was sitting in my driveway and I had the T
sitting next to it and it was waiting. I sold the T back to the dealer and so they had sent
to transport down to pick the car up. So that car was waiting in the driveway and I'm looking at
them side by side. I'm like, wait a second, this is a good content opportunity. And so,
you know, I walk around the cars, I discuss each, I compare some of the design things going on with
them. I think the rear end of the 991.2 is just to die for. I think the 992 looks cheap.
That's a different conversation. Anyway, they present, they're like the same size,
but you're right. When you drive the 992, to me it feels wider and flatter, which you think would
be cool. But I think it's the long wheelbase plus whatever the hell they've done with the
suspension and I guess the chassis, it just, it doesn't, it didn't excite me. So I guess the
point I'm trying to make to you here is with regards to your point about the tunes,
the tunes and the turbos, like that motor on a base, I think, you know, that three-liter,
you can actually slap a GTS tune and larger turbos on it and the thing will be like a monster,
500 plus horsepower, I think. Now, why didn't I do that with the T and roll on? Because it was a
beautiful example, because you're going to avoid the warranty, you start dicking around with
stuff like that. Right, right. And I just, part of what I like about these newer cars is that
that peace of mind that you can really hammer on it. And if something breaks,
take it over the dealer, smile, because you're not shelling out five grand to fix something,
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I'm just looking up here. I wanted to get a sense of
what the horsepower difference is. So, your 991.2 S has 420 horsepower, your 992
T that you sold had 385. Talk to me about torque though.
Yeah. So, you were pushing almost 400 torque in the car you have now, 390 versus 332 in the T.
That's where it showed up.
That's where it showed up.
Yeah. So, that's 60 pound feet of torque. And so, when you tell me that it's more fun to drive,
it's more engaging, it feels faster. I can't disagree with you, but I mean,
you're feeling torque. And there's no question that S's have more torque for sure.
In your mind, dude, your butt dyno, maybe that makes more sense. But in general,
I feel like the bases are... Here's what I'm going to say. If you are looking for a watercool car
and you are looking for an air-cooled experience, buy a base. I feel like...
Yes, sir. 100% on board with you there.
Yeah. I feel like a base feels like more of an older school playful sports car
reminiscent of the air-cooled world where you really rev it out.
If you want a mini GT car with serious capability, the S is there.
The way I look at it is sports cars and motorcycles. You can always go faster,
but is that more fun? Because the faster more capable the car is,
the faster you have to go to have fun. And you can get yourself into a lot of trouble
doing that. And so, for that reason, I'm a huge fan of the base.
It's very, very simple.
If you're trying to decide, I do a fair amount of consulting with people,
they reach out to me, and they really need a thought partner to make a decision.
I think we're fortunate, Derek, you and I, I mean, we've got a good community of buddies
who can provide us car counseling. Right now, I'm in the hunt on an SC target,
and I've run into some headwinds on the car. And so, I immediately start ringing up all
my buddies, and I'm spending hours on the phones. We're so stupid. It's like,
but this is happening. However, if I get it, I can do this, but also,
there's something else going on here. And I don't know. Anyway, I digress. We're very
fortunate we have that car counseling group. You're in my car counseling group,
this car coaching. But some people out there, they just don't have that.
Maybe they're new to the hobby, so they're looking for somebody to do it.
For a fee, I hang with them and we do that, work together. But it's not rocket science.
You got to slow down to speed up with your search. Go find a base, drive the base,
go find an S, drive the S. Well, it's hard to find, and they're not, you know,
they're not at dealerships close to me. Dude, take it from somebody who's bought
cars in an uninformed way. I'll overstate it. You find an S that's going to cause you
have to get on the plane. It's worth it. You need to drive them side by side to make
an informed decision and make sure you're not making a mistake. So you and I can sit
around and naval gaze and talk about all these different things. And I'm sure that people
enjoy it. And it's worthy of a conversation. But, you know, there's no magic bullet here.
I mean, it's just, you got to drive them. Does that make sense?
If we come out of this conversation, having done nothing more than cause people out there to
either give a second thought or a second look at a base, or have someone that's looking
at buying their first Porsche to consider a base, we're giving you permission to buy the
less expensive car because it's not a lesser car than I think we've done our job because I've
owned both and the S absolutely has its place. They are good cars. I'm not saying they're not
good cars, but what I'm saying is there is this beauty. There is this, if you know,
you know when it comes to a base that I think is underappreciated and you will find,
if you dig deep enough in those forums, you will find these little voices that pop up and
say, hey, like the base is more of a fun, driver-focused car. Consider that. And then
they quickly get squashed by the S conglomerate. And so all of you out there just consider it.
And I think we've made a pretty good case for both and we're giving the base a chance.
That's right, man. And, you know, the bases are often overlooked and you can find them
in cool colors and so on. And so there's that. So I don't know, man, good, robust
discussion. I want to just really quickly give a preview of what's happening here shortly on this
podcast. So some future episodes, we've got an episode planned here in the very near future with
a gentleman who is, he's going to be a guest and he is one of the
leading experts really, I think, at least in North America, maybe the world on Porsche colors.
And I'm really, really excited about that episode. I've talked to the guy a couple times
and he's agreed to come on. So that should be fun. And I know we're also chasing, I don't know
where you're at, Derek, with this, but like a guy who understands the Boxster to such a degree
that he wrote a book on, I think it's the 987 Boxster. So, you know, those are some future
episodes. Yes, sir. He's going to flash the book if you're watching YouTube version of this.
Yeah, Jeff, 987. Yeah, I'm going to reach out to Jeff. I had a great conversation with him.
He is the expert when it comes to kind of base Boxsters. And because I am looking at
Caymans and trying to decide between the S and the base, I think that would be really fun too.
Regarding the gentleman with the colors, I mean, I've often thought, how does Porsche figure out
these paint to sample colors? Like, where do they come from? Like, how do they figure this
stuff out? How do they name them, all this stuff? And so I'm actually excited about that
because I feel like it really might, you know, make that a little bit clearer.
Yeah. Sidebar, it's just this is maybe not interesting, but I keep checking my phone. I'm
getting texts right now. I don't know if you're watching the video. You saw me looking down. I've
got a buddy who's in the hunt right now for an E46 M3. And so he keeps sending me pictures and
showing me examples. And he's like, I might pursue this one seriously. So it's the old
car coaching, car consulting. And so sometimes I'm able to help out a buddy. So anyway, man,
I digress on, I don't know how interesting BMW, BMWs are, especially the older M cars, but Derek,
it's been fun, man. Yeah, this was a good episode. Certainly not exhaustive. There's so much more
to talk about between these two things, but I would love for everyone in the comments to
talk about what they think about this. Are we way off base? Or did we make some good
points? And I guess it really depends on what you own is how that colors. But we will talk next
week, my friend. Always fun, Derek. I'm sure we'll talk in the meantime about this freaking
search I'm grappling with. So look for a call and look for a text. I'll wait for your call
later today. Later, buddy. Hi, brother. And that's a wrap for this episode of Renthousias
Radio. We hope you enjoyed diving deep into the world of Porsches with us today.
And if you enjoyed today's show, be sure to check out previous episodes and subscribe
to Renthousias Radio wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget to leave us a review.
Your feedback helps us improve and ensures we're delivering the Porsche content you look forward
to. Catch you on the next episode of Renthousias Radio.
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About this episode
Exploring the debate between choosing a base Porsche versus the S trim, Will and Derek dive into the nuances of ownership experiences and performance characteristics. They share personal anecdotes, discuss the psychological factors influencing buyers, and highlight the advantages of both trims. The conversation emphasizes that while the S offers more power and features, the base models can provide a more engaging driving experience for enthusiasts. Listeners will gain insights into what to consider when purchasing their first Porsche and the value of appreciating each model for its unique qualities.
Thinking about a Porsche and stuck between a base car and an S badge? This episode is for you.
Will and Derek break down what actually separates Porsche base models from S models, going past forum noise and badge ego. If you have ever heard “you only buy a base because you can’t afford an S,” you will want to hear this.
In this episode you’ll hear:
– Why Porsche created base and S trims in the first place
– How the split goes all the way back to early 356 and long-hood 911s
– Real differences in power, torque, brakes, wheels, and cooling between base and S
– Why older, lower horsepower cars benefit more from the S upgrade
– How modern turbo motors shrink the gap between base and S
– Why a base 997, 991, 986/987 Boxster, or 981/718 can feel closer to an “old school” Porsche
– How S models can be too fast to enjoy on real roads
– Why the base often lets you use more of the rev range and more of the chassis
– When an S absolutely makes sense for track use, canyons, or big straight roads
– How this plays out with 991.2 vs 992, Carrera T, and air-cooled vs water-cooled cars
– Practical advice for first-time buyers and repeat Porsche owners
Will talks through his own journey from “unapologetic S snob” to someone who now respects base cars in a serious way. Derek argues that many experienced drivers quietly prefer the base, and that real driver engagement lives in the cars everyone overlooks.
If you are cross-shopping:
– Base vs S 911 (997, 991, 992)
– Base vs S Boxster or Cayman
– Base vs S Macan or Cayenne
you will get clear, honest guidance on what actually matters and what is marketing.
Chapters:
00:00 Welcome to Rennthusiast Radio
01:00 Why base vs S feels like Boxster vs 911
03:00 History of base vs S from 356 to modern cars
06:30 Psychology, pricing, and how Porsche moves you up the ladder
10:30 “Embrace the base or say yes to the S”
13:00 Real power, torque, and brake differences
18:00 Will’s S snob phase and what changed
24:00 Air-cooled vs water-cooled: why S matters more in old cars
29:00 Why base feels more like a classic Porsche on real roads
35:00 991.2 Carrera S vs 992 Carrera T back to back
40:00 Tunes, torque, and modern turbo tricks
44:00 Practical buying advice: who should pick base, who should pick S
50:00 Listener challenge: defend your side in the comments
Watch Will’s builds and ownership stories on the Rennthusiast YouTube channel.
Watch Derek’s reviews and road trips on ElevenAfterNine.
Listen to Rennthusiast Radio on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and all major podcast apps.
Tell us in the comments what you own, base or S, and whether we got this right or completely wrong.
