Real Porsche Drivers Choose the Base, Not the S?

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Welcome to Renthusiast Radio, the podcast where Will and Derek navigate the winding roads of

Porsche Obsession, exploring the good and the bad of Porsche ownership.

Grab your favorite beverage, pull up a chair and join us Renthusiast Radio because life's too

short not to talk about Porsches. Welcome to Renthusiast Radio. I'm Will.

And I'm Derek. And today's topic is one that I think sort of resembles,

and this is going to sound really weird, Derek. I'm going to just tell you to stick with me.

This is in a way the same dynamic that you see between like Boxter owners and 9-11 owners.

So what am I talking about? We have two trim levels of Porsche that we're going to be

looking at. We're going to be talking about a base trim level versus an S trim level and why people

would buy either one. And Derek and I will, I guess, give you kind of an overview of what each

of those trim levels are. We'll talk about it philosophically, you know, what each trim level

brings to you, which advantages it has. And then maybe we will land on an idea, Derek,

which one is a better choice. So yeah, man, base versus S.

The first few videos that I put up on 11 after 9 really talked about my base Boxter and how,

in many ways, I thought it was better than the S version. And I have gotten feedback now for

months and months of people heralding that as absolutely the driver's choice and other people

saying, you're insane. If you don't get an S, you are crazy for all of these reasons. And so it

was very much on my mind to demystify this for some people that are new to the brand. They're

looking at their first Porsche and they're saying, well, you know, one costs more, one costs less,

but one's better, one's faster, one's not as fast. And, you know, having owned,

I mean, I probably own more S's than I have bases. I think it's good for you and I to

kind of talk through our experiences on that. And, you know, what does it mean if

it's going to be your first Porsche or what does it mean if it's going to be your 15th Porsche?

You know, what should you consider? Before we get into that, check out Will's Renthousias

YouTube channel. He continues to pump out fantastic content on his 997 most recently,

his 997.2 and some of the work that's been done there. Check out my YouTube channel,

11 After 9. That's 11 After 9 All Spelled Out. And Will, our audio podcast on Apple

podcast and Spotify and all other places you listen to podcasts, it's been killing it. It

continues to get subscribers week after week. And I'm really happy about that.

Dude, it's, it is really, you know, flattering and an honor that this content seems to be

landing at least with some percentage of the Porsche enthusiast world. You and I just said,

hey, like, let's start this thing and just see what happens. And, you know, for me, it's almost

like therapeutic to get on here and shoot debris with you about these cars. Sometimes I'm like,

God, I don't feel like sitting down and, and getting on this, this platform and talking Porsche

interrupts some of the things that I got going on or whatever. But every time I come on here

with you, man, like I walk away feeling great, feeling energized. And I think that's about

the hobby. So I guess people out there that are listening can probably relate, you know,

it's just something therapeutic about talking about these cars with your buds.

Yeah, stuck in traffic, heading into Boston, cup of coffee in your hand.

And, and you're just kind of thinking Porsche. And also what I really love is the feedback we

continue to get, both on the audio side and the YouTube side, as far as comments and people

really jumping in and giving their two cents on all the inane stupid stuff that we talk about.

So our deepest thanks for that. But we have a lot to cover today when it comes to the

base in the S discussion will, because I'm not going to say this is co-compepsy, but it's, it's,

it really is the discussion of from a financial standpoint from a performance standpoint,

which way do you go? And I thought maybe the best thing to do is talk about just real briefly,

why does Porsche have a base in an S. So this goes back to the 356, you know, you could get

a base or a super, certainly those long hoods, early 911s, you had a number of different flavors,

TE and S, you can get like, you know, the hot-rodded version or the base version,

the touring version, stuff like that. In the mid to late 70s and 80s, correct me if I'm wrong,

Will, but like the turbo kind of became the S, right? They just had the, the 2.7 liter or

the three liter or the 3.2 liter, there was no special version up through the 964. And

then it was, I think the 993 was kind of the first time they came back with the S. Am I wrong on that?

Yep. And then after that, I think Porsche realized that you could have an entry level car

and then a more, you know, hopped up car. And so why did they do that? I think that

they needed an entry point for coming into 911s. You needed kind of a step up for the model line.

And so of course, from a financial standpoint, getting in in the quote,

less expensive way gives you an upgrade path for repeat buyers, right? You might buy the base,

but then you're going to come back for the S, which is fantastic. You know, the,

I also think that in many ways it was, it kind of protects their performance image,

because if you have a base that is more of an everyday driver sports car,

but then you have an aspirational S, which is, you know, faster, has better equipment,

more track focused, more Porsche, you know, that gives people, that gives people like this idea of

like, oh, well, I want that. And so I think immediately, you know, from a package standpoint,

people are excited for the S. And honestly, it's kind of a way for

Porsche to package in a lot of options into a trim. Because if you have a base, and as we know,

when you buy a Porsche, it's all a la carte. You know, if they package an S with a lot

of those things already in it, well, that's in sometimes with a small cost savings versus buying

it, you know, individually, they go, oh, well, I'm going to do that, because that's a better value.

And it's also more Porsche. The other thing I thought about, which was interesting of why they

have a base and an S, is that I think it might simplify their production, right? If they have

reconfigured cars, that makes it easier on the back end for, you know, people that want

these common, you know, like PASM or Porsche Sport Exhaust or these things that people buy all the

time will just put them in a model and just buy that model. So it's easier for dealers to have it

on the lot. And I think Porsche kind of says, like, hey, base, base Porsches are for more

sport daily use. And the S is if you want the sharper kind of more focused, more Porsche

and character. So that's kind of my thought on why they did that. I know there's many

other reasons, mostly financial, mostly marketing. But what do you think of that? Well,

yeah, I mean, I think once again, you're bringing in a lot of background knowledge

and data and information that's reaching back over the years. And I, you know, honestly,

you have a better grasp of that than I do. And I don't, you know, there are people out there

that are way smarter than I am about this, but I just look at it from a financial perspective.

And, you know, how does how does Porsche drive you up the chain to grab the cars that I

would guess help them capture more margin? So they're putting these, you know,

putting all these options on there that are just oh, so sexy. So if I'm, if I'm at an S,

I know we're not talking about GTS, but if I'm at an S for only X number of tens of thousands

of dollars, I could be in a GTS, then I got bragging rights and all the features.

So I kind of just wonder about how much of that is the psychology of it.

For sure, there are tangible performance benefits for each as you move up beyond the base.

But, you know, and that goes back to the configurator too, because I have experienced

configuring a car. Man, Porsche is masterful at pulling you through and getting you to add this

and add that. And so I suspect you're right too, from a manufacturing perspective,

you know, packaging up an S so you're not having to piece together the features that would make

up an S probably allows them to be more efficient too when they're making, making the cars or

ordering parts or anyway, I'm out of my depth, but that's what comes to my mind.

Yeah. And also, they're really good about like on the configurator, if you're buying a newer car,

you know, there are certain options that they don't have available for a base and it's only,

you can only upgrade if you're on an S. And so like if you want, you know, whatever that is,

rear-wheel steer or whatever, depending on the year, well, then you need the S if you

want to get that option. And they're really smart about that. The other thing that's

interesting is a lot of times, if you get a certain package, it deletes other things

that you can't get. And so again, it's just a way of moving you upmarket, right? And you've seen that.

And it's great. I love it. I mean, I'm a psychology guy there. So I really enjoy

what that does to your brain as you're trying to pick and choose and put things together.

And ultimately, it makes you spend more money.

And I'm going to stave off the folks in the comments that are saying, well,

you guys aren't talking about the GTS or the Turbo or the Turbo S or the RS.

We're going to keep it kind of just out of GT cars. We're just going to keep it base

in this discussion, just kind of talking about where we think for probably the majority of people

that are listening to this, that either own Porsche or want to buy Porsche, they're going to be

choosing between the base and the S because the GTS is a financial step up from the S,

actually a pretty big step up from the S. And then you get into the GT3s or the RS cars

or anything like that. And so we're probably not going to talk about that. Also,

this conversation that we're going to have also is applicable to the other model lines

in Porsche. It's not just 911s. I know we kind of default will to talking about 911s, but

a lot of this is part and parcel with McCons, Caymans, Boxters, Cayans, you name it.

And the one thing I will say, I think I said that the 911s didn't have an S in the 80s. That's

true, but the transaxle cars did. You had the base and then you had the Ss.

And so there was a differentiation there of like more sport purpose, more power and more

better. So I think from a psychology standpoint, I think that's the reason Porsche does the base

and the S. All right, man, let's get into this thing. And I'm a pretty clever guy. Here's why.

We want to talk about whether you embrace the base or you say yes only to the S.

Oh, you like that?

We could have, we could have a thumbnail for this podcast. That would be it. Holy cow.

And you know, I set that aside as a kind of tongue-in-cheek and I will say this, one thing I

learned. So sometimes I feel compelled, like if I'm going to make a point to paint a little bit

of a background on this thing, but I recently owned and sold a base Boxter 987.1.

And, you know, Derek's the one that really turned me on to the idea of testing out a base.

And so I had that car for a period of time and I, it was really kind of an experiment for me.

And I tested it out and loved the car. And I think, you know, my biggest lesson was I needed

to get into that car and all jokes aside, embrace it for what it was. You know,

you can't get into a base and, you know, try to pretend you're getting the experience that an

ass will deliver to you. You know, maybe you throw tunes on cars, maybe, you know, you modify them a

bit, you know, the base cars to get them up in performance. But I do think you got to embrace

a base for what it is and appreciate it for what it is. And we can definitely talk about

that when we talk about kind of driving characteristics and where we think the base

slots in. And also going back to that apt analogy you made at the beginning where you talk about

it's a lot like buying a Boxter versus a 911. Like, how much is it psychology where you feel

like a 911 is ultimate Porsche or the only Porsche? Whereas, you know, people are like,

if you're going to get a Porsche, you get an ass. Or do you realize a Boxter might be a

better driving car? It might be more Porsche in terms of connectedness. And you just get a

base because maybe that's the same way. Brilliant point. You know, it's funny,

regardless, and we can talk about the agendas behind why people, why I think people buy bases.

And I think that there are good reasons and that there are other reasons. But,

you know, when I was thinking about that and I threw out that intro and maybe I wasn't really

clear enough, but you know, it's funny. You have base people that are a fervent subculture of,

hey, don't you ever talk smack about a base because you're just missing out and the base

is bad ass. And then the ass guys come in and be like, what are you talking about? You

just bought that because you can't afford an ass. And I mean, that's what you see. So the

Boxter guys are like, man, you know what? You don't know what you're missing. Boxter is the best.

And then you've got the 911 guys saying, yeah, I appreciate a Boxter, but I don't want to own one.

So, you know, I don't know. It's just funny in the world of Porsche how you get that dynamic

going on between models and between thought processes. So let's talk a little bit about

what it really means between a base and an ass. And these are very general points I just want

to make because again, there's a lot of people out there will that don't know they're like, okay,

you're saying base, you're saying ass, but what does that really mean as far as the difference

between the cars? So here's kind of a general thing between the two different models. I think

the first we both agree has has to do with the power output. Again, kind of talking about 911s,

generally between the base and the ass, you have a liter difference of like maybe 0.2 to 0.5

liters. So it's a bigger engine. So more horsepower, more torque. I don't know, like just kind of see

the pants, I usually feel like it's somewhere between 30 and 50 horsepower is usually kind of the gap

between a base and an ass model of a Porsche, especially a 911. And because we move into

the turbocharged era in 2017, it's actually the same size motor, but they have bigger

turbos, intercooler changes, software changes. And again, kind of keeping that 50-plus horsepower

kind of gap between the two cars. I know like when they test them well, it's like,

what are they like, maybe half a second quicker or sometimes even less. So in the turbocharged

world, that's kind of where we land. It's the same literage, but there's a lot of

performance enhancements when it comes to the accoutrements around the engine.

And does the discussion for a little bit later is, does that mean that the base and the ass are

a little bit closer in terms of no ability? Well, I mean, we'll see, because I think I

can make the case throughout our discussion that the newer a Porsche you get,

the more close or the less differentiation there is when it comes to power,

maybe not some of the other due dads. I'm going to interrupt your tech spec. I'm going to interrupt

your tech spec lesson real quick. I just want to say this. I would really want to ask a question.

I think I know the answer, but the 991.2 and the 992, same motor, right?

Same three liter motor. Okay. Yeah, I'm going to hammer you later, but let's go.

All right. I'm looking forward to it. Other things where the S is an upgrade,

usually the S has bigger brakes from a rotor standpoint, from a piston and caliper standpoint,

stopping power is increased. You on, especially the earlier versions had the ability to put on

ceramic brakes, where you didn't really have that choice with the base wheels and tires.

Base cars normally have smaller diameter rims, narrower tires where the S models

usually have fatter tires. The rear wheels are bigger from a withstand point. Of course,

added grip, better contact patch, you might make the point that maybe they tramline a little bit more.

Maybe the audience doesn't know what tramlining is. Essentially, what it means is the wider

your front tires are, the more they want to follow the grooves in the road. If you have

bumps and you have broken pavement, the steering wheel pulls in your hand because

the tires want to follow the dips in the road, where a more narrow tire sometimes doesn't.

Cooling, a lot of times the S cars have a little bit better cooling solution because

the thought process is they're more sport-oriented. They might spend more time at the track,

even though that's arguable. From a chassis and handling difference, they might have firmer

suspension. Generally, S is, again, more sport-oriented. They might have Porsche

options that confirm up the suspension, where base cars oftentimes don't.

Generally, the S's get more tech. Like I mentioned earlier, rear axle steering,

and a lot of people just think that they're just a more Porsche Porsche.

I think that that's the difference. I will make the claim right now that I think

in cars that have under 200 horsepower, like your 944s of the 80s, your 986 Boxsters versus

Boxster S's, I think the difference in drivability really does make a huge difference when you move

to an S, when it's under 200 horsepower. But I'm going to make the case, I think as we talk,

that I think the S's are superfluous. I think the bases are a better value and a better driving

car. Go ahead. Will I see you writing things down to slaughter me in this discussion? Go.

Well, no. Honestly, no, this is not the part where I'm going to try to slaughter you.

I just think about this. For me, I mean, I look at, and it sounds so,

sometimes I struggle with calling this the quote, hobby. But I haven't really, I mean,

this is what people talk about when they talk about this, whatever the hell it is we do

with these cars. And people also talk about the journey. And I think about my journey,

and I got into this game. I think I had my first Porsche in 2017, 2017. And so here we are in almost

2026. So I mean, by no means am I Porsche royalty or some of these guys that have been into it

since their dad took them out in the 356. And they've been into it ever since their whole

lives. But I mean, I have collected a fair amount of experience. And I often kind of reflect

on my first phase of ownership and then what I'll call like middle phases of ownership and then

my more recent phase of ownership, which I think looks a little bit different than it did when

I got into this world. And so when I got into this world, I was on fire for, I just wanted to get

in. And I was buying the hype. And I'd read online. And then people were saying, you only

want the S. And I'm like, hell yeah, I want the S, the base is lame. And then you go

through the middle phase where you're learning and you're spending money in my case on air

cooled and maybe you're an idiot and you think you can improve what Porsche built.

And, you know, you're experimenting. And then you get into, at least for me, I mean, this is just

my experience, right? What I, and I shudder to say this, but it's almost like a maturity in the

hobby where you begin to appreciate each car for what it is. And then you learn to embrace

the base. You know, and that said, I mean, I did have to get out of my system trying a

number of different generations and a number of different trim levels. And I made a lot of

mistakes. And I found a lot of wins. But ultimately, I landed on an appreciation for the base cars.

So I know that I see like little beams of light coming off of you right now, because you're very

self satisfied and excited that you converted me to the, to the, to the base cars. But that,

as you were just talking, I mean, I come at it from a personal experience perspective.

And that's what's happened to me. And I don't know what's next for me. But,

yeah, so

Why have you never owned a 993 Carrera S? Is it financial?

Dude, I mean, I'm gonna make this up and somebody might throw some darts at me only because

my information might be outdated because I don't follow the market. What are you paying like an

extra 50 to 60,000 for? For what are you getting? A little bit of a wider rear end?

Correct? A little bit of extra horsepower, not meaningful. You do get some body

what's the word I'm looking for, trim, you know, a bumper, a bumper side skirts, and which I do

think dramatically improve the car, the car's look shape of exhaust. Well, yeah, there you go. So,

so sorry, you know, so I'm just somebody who if I feel like it's a reach financially and I've

done this too with the nine six four, I've concluded that nine six four is not for me

because the return on dollars just isn't there. I can get that similar a similar

experience for much less money. Same goes with the Carrera S. Do I want to sit in

my garage and stare at the rear end of a Carrera S a 993? Hell yeah. Do I want to pay $60,000 to do

that? Nah, I just don't. I have chased one a couple of times, but I just would lose my

enthusiasm when you start seeing the numbers now they keep coming up. So it's probably a goodbye.

But that would be my answer there, Derek. That's why are they are they goodbye at $170,000

that I'm seeing because the gap it used to be, you know, even 10 years ago when you jumped

in the hobby, right? I think I want to say that I had my 993. I bought it like maybe 15 years ago,

but you got in 10 years ago and 993. And at that point, it was still a 20 grand difference,

I think probably around then, like you could buy that car for, I don't know, maybe 40,

and you in an S was like 65 or 70. And now it's like you can buy a base for 80 or 90,

100. And the S is like 160, 170. So like the gap is even wider now. Is that myth? Or is that,

is there anything there? Again, I don't follow it closely. When I say it's a goodbye,

what I mean is if you're a financial, like if you have a financial agenda in terms of enjoying

the car and then flipping it out and making a pop, I mean, I think that's probably why it's

a goodbye if you want to park that capital there. But God, man, I start to think about

$170,000. Yeah. And I'm not a multi-brand person. I mean, I like vintage Toyota,

which is a totally different world. And, you know, I do come from a BMW background,

but I'm pretty, pretty pure Porsche. But if I were multi-brand, I start looking around,

I say, Hey, man, like what kind of $170,000 behind me? And, you know, a 993 Carreras is cool,

but I can get in for $110,000 in a C2, which this is what I believe to be true,

is actually a better car because you're not carrying around that extra rubber in the back

and blah, blah, blah, at least the things I've read not experienced because I've never driven

them. So, you know, there's that. And for me too, I go back to, I had a 1969 911T hot rod. It was

Aussie blue. I mean, the thing was sick. It was a Ripper. It was an MFI motor. It was so mean.

People saw that car on my channel and they just drooled. I sold it after experiencing it for a

period of time. It was not a really long hold for me. And I'll, should I share the

financials on this one, Derek? I think it might be real. The audience wants to know, Will. Come on,

it's been long enough. I acquired that car for $115,000. I want to say I put about $20,000 into it

to make it what I wanted. I mean, there's some things with that car. It was great.

It was great bones. The guy that I bought it from had done a wonderful job getting rust,

dealt with. So, when I got it, it was a wonderful car. There were just some mods and

ends that needed to be tidied up and I wanted to dial it in and make it mine. So, like

brass oil line and wheels and maybe tweak out the interior and put some different seats in it,

remove a roll bar that was in it, blah, blah, blah. Feature the car on my channel.

So, let's see, $115 plus $20. What does that give us? $135? $135. Thank you.

Yeah, you got it. That car went on during a trailer and it brought $167.5 plus the fees,

right? That was in the heyday post-COVID? Yeah. Yeah, admittedly, sure. I mean,

it was during the bonkers price period. Value was in the eye of the beholder,

and so that car is obviously worth what was paid for it. But that said, man, for me,

I started looking around like the proceeds were spread out. I had to pay commission on it

to the gentleman who handled it on that. But once I had that, I'm like looking around,

I'm saying, what could I buy? And I landed on a 981 GT4 because I was able to snag a 981 GT4

and bank, frankly, a meaningful amount of extra cash for a future purpose.

And so, where am I going with all that? You ask about the Quera S versus the Quera 993.

At a certain point, you're just like, what could I get for that amount of money that is

like obviously a better car, objectively speaking. I have a 981 GT4 now. It's racing

hell. It's beautiful. I drove it this morning. I mean, I love the 993, but the GT4 for the money

is such a better return in terms of smiles per mile. Yeah. And I do think that the conversation

is very different when we're talking about base versus ass. I think we really are talking much

more in the water cooled world because, I mean, to extract horsepower from an air cooled engine

is extremely expensive. Your dollar per horsepower in an air cooled motor is so expensive compared to

a water cooled motor. And that's why I think if you look at the Long Hood 911s and S is worth

so much more than a T, or if you look at a 993, the S is worth so much more than a base,

it's because those motors from the factory are operated and those horsepower's

are part and parcel of that. When you get into the water cooled world, a lot of those

constraints go away. And 996 S versus base, it's still expensive to get a lot more horsepower. You

have to go up in leaderage in the motor usually and rebuild it, but it's still way cheaper than

air cooled. And in the turbo world, it's sometimes just as easy as flashing a tune

and grabbing an extra 50 horsepower out of a car. And so I do want to bring the conversation

a little bit more back to maybe where our audience is of like, hey, I'm looking at a 997

base versus S or I'm looking at a 991 base versus S. I'm looking at a Boxster base versus S.

What is the height? And so this is the portion of the podcast, Will, where I am going to make my

case and you are going to agree with me every single point I make. And we are going to

conclude the podcast in five minutes about how the base is a far better car than an S. Ready?

I mean, I think that we have established that you're smarter than I am, and so I can't win.

Now, that's a bumper sticker that we need to make. Let's do that.

No, no, no. We need a bumper sticker that says I lose money on cars. It's what I do.

It's what I do.

That's what we need to create.

Yeah.

Wait, what was the saying you said earlier about the base versus the S? Say yes to the S.

Embrace the base or say yes only to the S.

And I used to be very much that. Listen, like you said earlier, you go on the forums and the forums

are like, get an S. Don't be a weenie. That's the real Porsche. A base is slow. A base is for

people that can't afford a Porsche. You don't know what you're missing. And so I have had 997

Ss. I have, I'm sorry, I've had 991 Ss. I've had more Boxster Ss than I have base

Boxsters. I definitely, I understand what they're saying and there is more power. And are there

instances where an S is a better car? Very few. And I kind of feel, I'm going to make a statement

right now and it's probably going to be a little bit controversial, Will. I think that if you are

coming into Porsche that you go for the S because the world tells you an S is a better

car. But if you've owned a number of Porsche and you've, and you really know what they are to drive,

I feel like real drivers of Porsche actually tend more towards the base than the S.

Yeah, man. I mean, I was just writing something similar down. It's like,

was it Ricky Bobby? He just said, I want to go fast. Yes. The guy comes in, he says,

hey, I want to buy my first 911. I want to go fast. And so he's like chasing the S.

I mean, on top of everything you just talked about all this stuff on the forms, man. And I was

that guy. I mean, I'll just call it like it is. Like it's an S snob thing. It's an uninformed S snob

thing. Now, you may sample all the different foods on the table, including different, you know,

base level cars in different generations. And you may still say, hey, the S is for me. And

I'm still there with certain cars. But I think that the base is kind of one of these,

if you know, you know, it requires more skill, more engagement, generally speaking,

to get the most out of the car. In my experience, you can push it harder,

992 maybe not. But the base cars, you can push them harder on public roads and you're not

doing this blistering speed where you're clearly going to go to jail if you get caught.

I mean, they're fast, especially the modern ones, but you get what I'm saying.

And that's five minutes now. Okay, good. Thank you. There you go, audience.

Will, those were excellent points. And those are some of the points

that I want to make when it comes to a base.

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It is, I feel like, and this is not every model, like I made, I made the caveat of,

like, you know, if you're under 200 horsepower, like those 944s, the S is a better car.

If you are driving a base 986, the S is a better car. As you get newer, I feel like that's

better. But I mean that, well, because, all right, I am of the personal opinion that 3,350

horsepower is really all the horsepower you need to drive cars where I am. And I'm about to make

the case that, of course, it has everything to do with use in your use case. Like, if I lived

out in California and I had canyon roads that were long sweepers, I would maybe want some more

horsepower, because to go fast is more interesting out there. But if I'm in the curvy roads in the

canyons, or if I'm out here in New Hampshire, where, you know, the speed limit is 45, the roads are

really twisty, the pavement isn't great, give me an S all day, because I can work that car,

I can shift through the gears back and forth, and it's more of a symphony, and I'm the

conductor. Whereas an S is so fast that I can only, I'm short shifting because of the power,

and I'm not getting everything out of the car. Yeah, hey, just as an item of clarification,

you had said, hey, everything you were just talking about, you said the S was the right

application. So I just want to clarify for the audience, I think Derek just accidentally

misspoke. The base is better. You had said S. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, no, all good, dude.

That's organic conversation. We've been yammering at each other for 30 minutes and don't sweat it.

No, what I mean is, no, okay, I'm sorry if I misspoke, but what I'm saying is if your use

application is like long sweepers, where speed is a thing, S, absolutely. People hit me all the

time like, oh, the base sucks on the track. You need an S. I'm not going to disagree with

that because that comes down to torque and pulling out of corners on a track and S is faster,

a GTS is even better, a GT3 is even better. But for the roads, the use case that I have,

I can drive at 6 or 7 tenths, I can use 80% of my car, whereas if I have an S, I have to drive at

5 tenths, and even then I'm illegal, and I'm extracting 60% or 40% of the car because it's

so capable, it's too fast for the back roads that I do. Here's the other thing,

because of the smaller leaderage in a base motor, they are so sweet when you rev them out.

I had a comment on one of my, I think it was a short I put up on 11 after 9 where I was just

driving the back roads of New Hampshire. It was fall. I videotaped myself just like,

I think I was at maybe 5,500 RPM and some guys goes, will you please shift?

And I looked at that comment and I just laughed because that's kind of the,

when you have an S, like you never get there, but when you have a base, you are playing in the

upper rev range where the car sings, and it is so responsive, and it's so talkative

that you live above 5,000 RPM and the car was built for that. And because of the smaller motor,

it loves to rev at those higher revs. But in the mid range, yeah, the S wins.

Like if you are coming from a stop sign, you do have a greater pull

with an S, but as you drive them, I feel like the base really comes into its own. You're shifting

a lot more, you have to short shift with the S. Also, you're feeling at lower speed,

I think an S can get you into a lot of trouble if you're a new driver,

because the cars go so fast, they can be so fast, the brakes are so capable

that you approach a lot of corners a lot faster than you feel comfortable will.

And that's not a great thing, especially if you're kind of new to the car

or haven't been driving these cars for a long time. I mean, you can get yourself into a lot

of trouble because these cars are so dang fast, especially the newer ones.

Yeah, man. I mean, I think just to put a fine point on your, what you just said about

the base is like, to me, it's, it falls into the world of it's more fun to drive a slow

car fast than a fast car slow. And to me, that's also very representative of the experience

with the air-cooled cars. Wind them out, leave the revs high, you look down, you're not going

crazy fast, and it requires skill. It's exhilarating as hell, man. There's a lot of

theater going on when you got those motors revved out like that. And the S is not

necessarily going to replicate that. I do want to talk about something.

So I have a 2017 991.2 Carrera S. I have owned a 992.1 Carrera T. So the Carrera T has the

base motor in it. There's a couple of things that are a little bit different, but fundamentally,

in my view, it's a marketing package around a base car. Might get some hate, but that's what it is.

I had the chance, so I owned the 991.2 S trim. Same motor as the 992 Carrera T.

So owned the 991.2, got out of it because I got an opportunity to buy a T and order it

and configure it and blah, blah, blah. Owned that car for like, I don't even know,

3,000 miles and dumped it because I found it boring. And then I ran back and I bought

back my 991.2 from the dude I had sold it to. I will firmly maintain that in the case of that

3-liter turbo motor because I owned them back to back. The S is for all applications,

including back roads ripping, the better option. It is more fun. It has more torque. It sticks

you to your seat. You can definitely manage it. Now, I don't want to toot my own horn. It

requires skill. I mean, I've taken that car into the mountains, elevation changes,

switchbacks, blind curves. It requires skill to play that S turbo motor in a way that you don't

feel like you're going to go off the side of the mountain. But that's where I'm going to push back,

man. I mean, I don't know. I did not find that 992 T to be exhilarating. Now,

we talked about this in a previous episode. Actually, I don't want to get into it. There

are like physics reasons why it just didn't really stick you to your seat. It was a fast

car. But there was just something missing that I find in that S. And that S sits in my

garage to this day. I put 20,000 miles on it. So, I mean, I'm just telling you based on my

experience, in the case of the newer motors, the S is the right choice, if you can do.

So that's, yeah, no, and that's a great point to make well. And I don't have the

level of experience driving or owning the newer 911s like you do. I will say this,

and I alluded to it earlier in this podcast, that when you get into the turbocharged era,

the gap between base and S becomes a lot less because the things you can do to these motors

to make a base more like an S is a lot easier. Sometimes just a tune. And so,

you went from a base 992.2 to an S991.2. This is number salad for everyone out there,

but essentially like a mid 2020s 911 to a late 2000s 911. While it's more or less,

the motor is very similar, you do have to, I think, play in all the different suspension

and go fast parts in your ass for sure. But, you know, man, the 992 is also just like a bigger car.

It's more of a GT car. Whereas the 991s, I feel like are, they're just, I don't know,

I was just about to say not as comfortable. That's not true. I just feel like,

I feel like the 992s that I've been in, they just feel more of like a car car,

where the 991 is more of a sports car. Yeah, they feel, they feel sedanish. Now,

now I'm going to say this, I want to challenge a point you just made,

and I would love for you to overcome this challenge or beat me back. But do you have data?

The size-wise isn't that different. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. Now, I just took your point. Yeah.

Yeah, because so I have a video on my channel somewhere, Berry Deep,

where I had bought back that 991.2 and it was sitting in my driveway and I had the T

sitting next to it and it was waiting. I sold the T back to the dealer and so they had sent

to transport down to pick the car up. So that car was waiting in the driveway and I'm looking at

them side by side. I'm like, wait a second, this is a good content opportunity. And so,

you know, I walk around the cars, I discuss each, I compare some of the design things going on with

them. I think the rear end of the 991.2 is just to die for. I think the 992 looks cheap.

That's a different conversation. Anyway, they present, they're like the same size,

but you're right. When you drive the 992, to me it feels wider and flatter, which you think would

be cool. But I think it's the long wheelbase plus whatever the hell they've done with the

suspension and I guess the chassis, it just, it doesn't, it didn't excite me. So I guess the

point I'm trying to make to you here is with regards to your point about the tunes,

the tunes and the turbos, like that motor on a base, I think, you know, that three-liter,

you can actually slap a GTS tune and larger turbos on it and the thing will be like a monster,

500 plus horsepower, I think. Now, why didn't I do that with the T and roll on? Because it was a

beautiful example, because you're going to avoid the warranty, you start dicking around with

stuff like that. Right, right. And I just, part of what I like about these newer cars is that

that peace of mind that you can really hammer on it. And if something breaks,

take it over the dealer, smile, because you're not shelling out five grand to fix something,

you know.

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I'm just looking up here. I wanted to get a sense of

what the horsepower difference is. So, your 991.2 S has 420 horsepower, your 992

T that you sold had 385. Talk to me about torque though.

Yeah. So, you were pushing almost 400 torque in the car you have now, 390 versus 332 in the T.

That's where it showed up.

Yeah. So, that's 60 pound feet of torque. And so, when you tell me that it's more fun to drive,

it's more engaging, it feels faster. I can't disagree with you, but I mean,

you're feeling torque. And there's no question that S's have more torque for sure.

In your mind, dude, your butt dyno, maybe that makes more sense. But in general,

I feel like the bases are... Here's what I'm going to say. If you are looking for a watercool car

and you are looking for an air-cooled experience, buy a base. I feel like...

Yes, sir. 100% on board with you there.

Yeah. I feel like a base feels like more of an older school playful sports car

reminiscent of the air-cooled world where you really rev it out.

If you want a mini GT car with serious capability, the S is there.

The way I look at it is sports cars and motorcycles. You can always go faster,

but is that more fun? Because the faster more capable the car is,

the faster you have to go to have fun. And you can get yourself into a lot of trouble

doing that. And so, for that reason, I'm a huge fan of the base.

It's very, very simple.

If you're trying to decide, I do a fair amount of consulting with people,

they reach out to me, and they really need a thought partner to make a decision.

I think we're fortunate, Derek, you and I, I mean, we've got a good community of buddies

who can provide us car counseling. Right now, I'm in the hunt on an SC target,

and I've run into some headwinds on the car. And so, I immediately start ringing up all

my buddies, and I'm spending hours on the phones. We're so stupid. It's like,

but this is happening. However, if I get it, I can do this, but also,

there's something else going on here. And I don't know. Anyway, I digress. We're very

fortunate we have that car counseling group. You're in my car counseling group,

this car coaching. But some people out there, they just don't have that.

Maybe they're new to the hobby, so they're looking for somebody to do it.

For a fee, I hang with them and we do that, work together. But it's not rocket science.

You got to slow down to speed up with your search. Go find a base, drive the base,

go find an S, drive the S. Well, it's hard to find, and they're not, you know,

they're not at dealerships close to me. Dude, take it from somebody who's bought

cars in an uninformed way. I'll overstate it. You find an S that's going to cause you

have to get on the plane. It's worth it. You need to drive them side by side to make

an informed decision and make sure you're not making a mistake. So you and I can sit

around and naval gaze and talk about all these different things. And I'm sure that people

enjoy it. And it's worthy of a conversation. But, you know, there's no magic bullet here.

I mean, it's just, you got to drive them. Does that make sense?

If we come out of this conversation, having done nothing more than cause people out there to

either give a second thought or a second look at a base, or have someone that's looking

at buying their first Porsche to consider a base, we're giving you permission to buy the

less expensive car because it's not a lesser car than I think we've done our job because I've

owned both and the S absolutely has its place. They are good cars. I'm not saying they're not

good cars, but what I'm saying is there is this beauty. There is this, if you know,

you know when it comes to a base that I think is underappreciated and you will find,

if you dig deep enough in those forums, you will find these little voices that pop up and

say, hey, like the base is more of a fun, driver-focused car. Consider that. And then

they quickly get squashed by the S conglomerate. And so all of you out there just consider it.

And I think we've made a pretty good case for both and we're giving the base a chance.

That's right, man. And, you know, the bases are often overlooked and you can find them

in cool colors and so on. And so there's that. So I don't know, man, good, robust

discussion. I want to just really quickly give a preview of what's happening here shortly on this

podcast. So some future episodes, we've got an episode planned here in the very near future with

a gentleman who is, he's going to be a guest and he is one of the

leading experts really, I think, at least in North America, maybe the world on Porsche colors.

And I'm really, really excited about that episode. I've talked to the guy a couple times

and he's agreed to come on. So that should be fun. And I know we're also chasing, I don't know

where you're at, Derek, with this, but like a guy who understands the Boxster to such a degree

that he wrote a book on, I think it's the 987 Boxster. So, you know, those are some future

episodes. Yes, sir. He's going to flash the book if you're watching YouTube version of this.

Yeah, Jeff, 987. Yeah, I'm going to reach out to Jeff. I had a great conversation with him.

He is the expert when it comes to kind of base Boxsters. And because I am looking at

Caymans and trying to decide between the S and the base, I think that would be really fun too.

Regarding the gentleman with the colors, I mean, I've often thought, how does Porsche figure out

these paint to sample colors? Like, where do they come from? Like, how do they figure this

stuff out? How do they name them, all this stuff? And so I'm actually excited about that

because I feel like it really might, you know, make that a little bit clearer.

Yeah. Sidebar, it's just this is maybe not interesting, but I keep checking my phone. I'm

getting texts right now. I don't know if you're watching the video. You saw me looking down. I've

got a buddy who's in the hunt right now for an E46 M3. And so he keeps sending me pictures and

showing me examples. And he's like, I might pursue this one seriously. So it's the old

car coaching, car consulting. And so sometimes I'm able to help out a buddy. So anyway, man,

I digress on, I don't know how interesting BMW, BMWs are, especially the older M cars, but Derek,

it's been fun, man. Yeah, this was a good episode. Certainly not exhaustive. There's so much more

to talk about between these two things, but I would love for everyone in the comments to

talk about what they think about this. Are we way off base? Or did we make some good

points? And I guess it really depends on what you own is how that colors. But we will talk next

week, my friend. Always fun, Derek. I'm sure we'll talk in the meantime about this freaking

search I'm grappling with. So look for a call and look for a text. I'll wait for your call

later today. Later, buddy. Hi, brother. And that's a wrap for this episode of Renthousias

Radio. We hope you enjoyed diving deep into the world of Porsches with us today.

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Real Porsche Drivers Choose the Base, Not the S?

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