Supercar Debate: What Makes A Car A Supercar?

I was one of the Zoomers.

You are listening to the Analog and Grit podcast.

I'm your host, Victor Troyer.

Who do we have on today's episode?

Hey, what's up, guys?

This is Josh from Analog and Grit.

Hey, guys, it's Nick, the Sudmuffin, and this is JP.

JP?

JP what?

JP, friend of Analog and Grit.

Yeah, one of the original members.

Yeah.

JP, the most stylish individual in San Diego.

You are.

You actually are the most stylish, I would say.

Right?

I mean, who else could pull off that hat?

I don't think that many people could.

Just him.

JP, you were on this podcast many moons ago.

Yeah, I was.

Yeah.

Back in the day when I had a different name and a different location.

JP, fun fact, yeah, JP is the reason that Victor and I met.

Right.

Yeah.

That's right.

He says, you got to meet this guy, Vic.

He's so cool.

Yeah, I owe it to him because back in the day when, you know, the other location closed,

he's like, hey, there's a better, newer, more grittier location nearby.

Go check it out.

Go meet Josh.

And yeah, I think that week I went.

There was no courtesy here yet.

It was just an empty space.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's cool.

Yeah, the other really interesting fact is me, JP, and JP's wife, Ali, found this

place.

Yeah.

And so we were, Ali was at a breakfast date with one of her friends and JP and I were

on a motorcycle ride.

We came over here and we saw this warehouse and there's like a little peephole.

We're looking in the little hole at the warehouse like, oh, this could work.

You know, let's give it a try.

And then Ali got done with her breakfast date.

We went to pick her up on the motorcycles and we're like, hey, you want to check

it out?

And she's like, yeah, I'd love to.

And then we're like, yeah, this is it.

Yeah.

Oh, wow.

Yeah.

That's a fun fact.

I met JP because you had an Alpha Romeo and your dog's name is Alpha.

And I had my Alpha Romeo spied out of cars and coffee and we were just talking

about it.

Yeah.

And I think you were persuading me not to sell it at the time.

I think it was.

Yeah.

What it was.

Yeah.

You're like, don't sell it.

Why would you sell it?

You know, that's just who I am.

I'm buying sell.

Alpha Vic.

Alpha Vic got a 9-11.

He ain't selling that thing anytime soon.

He might.

We'll see.

We'll talk about it later.

Yeah.

We'll talk about it later.

So this podcast, we're going to talk about a segment of cars that we've never talked

about ever.

All right.

And that is the supercar, right?

So the car that we're going to discuss today, what that even means or what defines

the word supercar.

So we've never talked about it simply because to be honest, I don't have the extent

of or the breadth of knowledge in supercars.

There's so many now.

There was a time where there was only a few, right?

And they were on your poster above your bedroom wall, maybe, right?

So, yeah, now there's so many that they had to create a new segment, right?

Which is now hypercars.

So let's start with supercars first, right?

Maybe we'll segue in a hyper, but for now, what is a supercar?

I would like to know.

I would like to start with what was the original supercar?

Okay.

You know, because we started off with sports cars.

And when did it cross over from sports car to supercar?

What was the original supercar?

For me, the mirror comes to mind first.

That's exactly what I was going to say.

And that's because of style, horsepower, figures, and, you know, production

specs.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

So that's JP's point, right?

A supercar is defined as low production.

Low production, how exotic it is, how powerful it has to be, two-seater.

So there's no supercars that are four-seaters.

So we're all in agreement that a GT-R is not a supercar?

GT-R is not a supercar.

Even though it'll be defined supercars on the track.

So it's just a sports car beating a supercar.

Yeah.

So my argument is that if you beat a supercar and you're a production-level sports car,

then you're the reigning champ.

You get the title.

So it's all about numbers on the track?

To me.

Or performance numbers?

Yeah.

If you're a GT-R beating, you know, a new Ferrari or a new Lamborghini, then how can

you not be a supercar?

So you didn't say what you think your first supercar, what do you think the first

supercar was?

Shoot.

Yeah, I haven't even thought about that.

You posed the question.

Yeah.

Yours is the Miura.

Yeah.

Yeah, Miura.

What's yours?

I was saying the Mercedes-Benz Goldwing.

The Goldwing.

Oh, yeah.

The first supercar.

And that's even earlier, right?

Because that's 50s.

That's even earlier, yeah.

Okay.

I would say the F40 for me.

The F40.

So that's later.

Yeah.

That's 80s.

80s.

Yeah.

Miura 70s, right?

Somewhere around there, late 60s maybe.

Yeah.

Interesting.

So as time goes on, there's just more and more, and that applies even to today, because there's

just so many high-powered, I mean, you could even say overpowered cars that against JP

do have four seats, but I feel like you were just saying poster cars.

Early 2000s there was the Carrera GT, there was the Lamborghini Diablo, and the list

was short back then.

And now, the way I look at it at least, I think that a supercar could be the top of the

line model, where I think an Audi RS6, you look at it and you don't think supercar,

but the way it performs makes me feel like it's a supercar, and like a BMW, like the

new M5 competition, for example, like this car has like 650 horsepower in it, but that's

the way I look at it, agree or disagree?

I disagree, I disagree, because the performance, it is limited production compared to a regular

five series, but it's the top of the top, like it's the crème de la crème of BMW

five series.

I look at it the same with the modern like M4 and stuff, because they just are absolute

cheat codes on the track, like they, you know, they're not GT3 RS fast, but I look at that

as a supercar.

So you agree with Josh?

I'm with Josh.

Well, I think we all have different opinions.

I think Nick and I agree that a four-seater can be a supercar, but I disagree with

Nick because I don't agree that Audi's or BMW's, I mean, maybe the M1, I would classify

that as a supercar, maybe the R8 supercar, but no RS, anything or, you know.

You said RS6 Avant, you think is a supercar and the M5 competition?

Just by performance standards, not by the way that it looks, like this is, that's

the way that I look at a supercar is it's performance.

Oh, I got a definition.

My opinion is a supercar has to be from the factory and its primary purpose is for tracking.

Exactly.

What I'm talking about.

Okay.

And an Audi RS6 Avant or whatever, that's, that's not its primary purpose.

Its primary purpose is luxury and like fast, comfy driving.

It's all creature comforts, climate control.

That's why I define the F40 because that thing is not comfortable.

It's all carbon fiber.

It's got Lexon windows, it's all loud and obnoxious, no climate control.

From the factory.

Yeah, from the factory and it's built for the track.

A supercar cannot be practical.

Exactly.

It needs to be uncomfortable.

It needs to be one thing and maybe not one thing.

If it needs to be uncomfortable.

Like the Mura, I mean, I've never done a Mura, but I've heard that after a certain

speed it's wobbly and shit, so maybe it just look good.

Yeah.

It can be fast.

Because of the definition of a supercar, it must be uncomfortable.

Uncomfortable.

Yeah, uncomfortable.

Yeah, because, I mean, a supercar, when you get to a supercar, it's like, okay, I have

a couple of bucks to spend, you know what, whatever.

And you buy something and it's going to do one thing only.

Like an RS6 is like, oh, you know what, I have money, but I don't have money yet

to have a second car.

So I'm going to use these to go drop off the kids to school.

It has to be very uncomfortable.

It changes the.

The supercar, one of the definitions also should be if you have a lady passenger, she definitely

complains about it.

Right.

Like it's either loud or stinky or not enough places to put her supplies or something.

If she gets in it like a new Audi and she's like, wow, this is great.

Like climate great suit heaters.

Not a supercar.

Wait, so we're saying that not every Ferrari is a supercar, not every Lamborghini is

a supercar.

No.

Really?

Do you think the fucking Urus is a supercar?

Oh.

That should be an exception.

That's an exception.

That's the exception.

But like, yeah, just a regular like a Roma, even a California is not a supercar in California

is not a supercar.

So the only supercar Ferrari is like the top of the line one.

Like an S.P.D.

You're really comfortable, though.

Like the Roman, the California, they're very uncomfortable.

They are.

You're right.

All these new Ferraris are so comfortable.

So those are not supercars anymore.

So that Audi neck, if you rip all the creature converts and climate control and seat heaters

and everything, you can make it a supercar because it's then uncomfortable.

There you go.

Yeah, I disagree with that.

I think Ferraris, Lamborghinis, off the bat, those are always been low production.

You know, they're supercars in my mind because not everyone could afford them.

They're not really practical.

Right?

I mean, yes, they have creature comforts like a Maranello is a supercar.

Yeah.

Like the like a 550.

Yeah, I think all those are GT car.

Well GT.

Yeah, it can be.

You're right.

There's a difference.

Like a GT car and a more like a track focused sports car, right?

And that gives you as a buyer options depending on what you want.

But to me, they're all still supercars because they're Ferraris, right?

Like, yes, Ferrari is trying to get mainstream with like the Sangue, the Puro Sangue and the

Eurus because they need to sell cars to make money.

Like they see the success of the Eurus and like, oh, we need to buy into that.

Even though from day one, they never they always said no hybrids, no electric and

no SUVs.

Yeah.

And here they are making hybrid SUVs.

So they got to sell right was a sell on Sunday and it went on Monday.

So yes, Ferrari.

No, no, no, you got that backwards race on Sunday, sell on Monday, my bad.

But like for our Enzo Ferrari always said from day one, like where I'm a I'm here

to sell cars on the track.

I mean, when race is on the track, but you think if Enzo was here would allow

that?

He wouldn't.

100% like I want something nice, you know, yeah, yeah, because he didn't care about

about he had a soul.

He wanted to be something, dude, not someone else.

Yeah, you're right.

But you need to fund like, think of like Ferrari as a company.

They have to set the Ferrari is technically owned by Stalantis Fiat Group, right?

Remember when they moved to Stalantis?

But then they also have their race RACE, which is their ticker for their stock.

So they have their own like company.

And that's mainly driven by the brand Ferrari, because it's such a like enormous

brand, just merchandise, everything, obviously F1.

But at the end of the day, without those sales of their regular cars, how they're

going to fund the school that he has.

Right?

Yeah, I got a good question.

So when does a 911, a Porsche 911 become a supercar?

Again, with Porsches, you don't think any Porsches aren't supercars, right?

Because the 911 has so many variants, like when does it become a GT, though?

It starts at the turbo.

Yeah.

Carrera GT in my mind.

And what's the other one?

The 958?

What's the one they make?

They made for the track.

The 918.

No, that's a hypercar.

Oh, so wait.

I'm not the 918.

Wait, what newer or older?

Oh, that's older.

Older.

959.

Yeah.

That's a supercar, the Carrera GT.

And then the other and that car.

Yeah.

That's the 918.

What is that?

Oh, that's a GT.

That's a GT1, I believe.

Well, they didn't make that for production, did they?

Yeah.

It's a modified GT3.

Yeah.

And that was a track car, not a production car.

Yeah.

So wait, 911s are not supercars?

No.

Not in my opinion.

So GT3RS, GT2, not supercar?

What?

Absolutely.

Invited my brain.

The said muffin says 911 Turbo S is a supercar.

GT3, supercar, GT3RS.

Yeah, because you're a performance.

Right.

They can beat supercars on a track.

And they're so uncomfortable.

But when you see the...

Yeah.

Porsche is reliable, dude.

Oh, okay.

Okay, so another thing for JB.

You need to break down at least once a month.

All right.

It can be a supercar because if you have a lady in the passenger seat, she'll like it.

Yeah.

I don't know if I want a supercar.

I'm just kidding.

No, I think I would disagree.

I think if you think back to the original supercars, you know, like what was the

poster that you would see?

Justification for a higher education?

No.

The 930, the widowmaker, was in that lineup.

That was the original Porsche 911 turbocar.

Total supercar.

Yeah, supercar.

From the 80s.

It locked in as a supercar back in the 80s, back in the 70s.

Because 930s, when did those come out?

Like 79 or something?

Yeah.

78.

I don't know.

I disagree.

I think in that line of the Testarosa, the 930 was...

Yeah, but here's the funny thing, that 930 would spank the doors off the

Kuntash.

That's fine.

But it didn't sound as good.

It didn't look as good.

You didn't have it on top of your room.

Next to fucking Sarah Fawcett, dude.

I mean, it was the Testar and the Kuntash.

930 was like in a magazine somewhere.

It was fair as sister.

I think that a Porsche turbo is a supercar.

Yeah.

That's the first 911 that gets that designation in my opinion.

But why do you think it's not a supercar?

Let me see if we align.

Six-cylinder, high production, not exotic enough.

It doesn't sound like a supercar.

It doesn't look like a supercar.

So you wouldn't even consider like a GT3 or GT2 a supercar?

No.

No GT cars?

Have you heard one of those start lately and rip around the track?

Yeah, of course.

And that doesn't sound like a supercar to you?

Yeah, but you see a Testa Rosa and your eyes go straight to the Testa Rosa.

Not to the Porsche that already drove three times with an old five-pattern.

He doesn't like them because they're too common.

They're not unique, yeah.

Everybody's got one.

That's his biggest argument is the production number.

Yeah, it's not exotic.

But then that goes against like my point of like the Roma or any really Ferrari.

They make a lot of those cars, right?

But I think this, I think with Porsche, unless it's a halo car for them,

like a car because you can option, you can get a 911 base and then you can option it out to like a GT3 RS, right?

That is a track monster that will beat other supercars in its period, right?

Not old supercars, obviously.

But to me, it's not necessarily a halo car because you can option it like that.

A halo car is a Carrera GT, right?

Is it the 918?

What's the one that came after that?

Yeah, that's the 918.

So like something like that where like you look at it and you're like, holy shit, what is that?

Yeah.

Right?

It's not like, oh, that's just a 911 with a narrow kit and a lighter suspension.

That's a good definition.

So Vicks definition is if you see a car and you're like, holy shit, what the hell is that even?

It needs to have that effect on you, right?

Yeah.

You know, Cohen is Ziggs, Pagani's, right?

Well, we might be now venturing a hypercar.

Yeah.

But you can stay in like really low production steel with that like basic sold into the TBRs.

Like they don't care.

I don't think they care to make money.

TBR, the English company?

The English company.

Yeah.

And they don't care to make money.

Gran Turismo.

Yeah.

Well, he's from Spain.

So he's probably seen them on the roads.

Oh, no.

But if I see one, I will call you.

So by Victor's definition, then the Honda Acti van that I'm driving as a supercar goes

on the way to work.

Holy shit.

What the hell is that even?

Rearranging.

It's a super van.

Well, a halo car is a car that brings people to the dealership, right?

Yeah.

Like it's sitting there, you know, center on the showroom floor and people come to see

it.

It looks fast just sitting there.

Yeah.

Exactly.

But then they don't buy that car.

They can't afford it.

They buy the next best thing or even a base model.

That's the thing with Ferrari, maybe.

Yeah.

So, I mean, which one is the top of the line right now?

Right now, what's the most expensive Ferrari, Nick?

Is it like a SP3 or the?

Oh, yeah.

I mean, all day long, it's the SP3 cars.

Like those things are like boo boo bucks.

That would be a supercar.

If you go there to see the car and you end up with aroma, they're like, well, you

tried it.

Next best thing.

But how much is aroma?

It's like $300,000 probably starting.

Yeah, exactly.

You don't think that's super car money?

And then it's weird talking about the SP3s and stuff because those are just

super limited.

They're extra special.

But then you can get an SF90 for less than that and have a quote unquote

hypercar that's a hybrid.

Oh, yeah.

Let's talk about hypercar.

What's a hypercar?

Well, I think that's the way he's getting confused.

I think you think the modern day hypercar is the only supercar.

No, no, no.

I think, well, hypercars is weird.

What is it?

When the terms hypercar started, I think it was with the 918 and the La Ferrari.

I think that's when the break of supercar and hypercar came in because they

were already using electric engines to make it unbelievable fast.

Is that hyper?

Is that hybrid?

In my mind, when I saw those cars for the first time and they break, like

you've heard hypercar for the first time, it was just those two.

And those two things they have, they hybrid.

Motors.

So I think it would be the break.

Unbelievably amount of power.

The P1.

Beyond anything.

So I think that's like over the top.

Right.

That was the trifecta was the P1, the 918 Spider and the La Ferrari.

And those were all hybrid.

But then you go into like Koenigsegg territory and Koenigseggs,

like they have a hybrid.

The ESCO is a hybrid, but most of their cars are just gas cars.

They're just gas powered and they are considered hypercars too.

So maybe anything that breaks the 200 mile an hour limit.

Those are supercars.

Well, those are, I mean, Corvette has been breaking it for a while.

Oh, Corvette.

Is that a supercar?

Yeah.

Now it's going to get hot.

Yes.

I know.

I was waiting for this part because it's not about the new ZR1.

The dance.

Yeah.

It's about to get a thousand horsepower.

Yeah.

But go to the Mission Valley.

You can pick whatever color in the line of view.

Like what will take you right now?

With matching new balance.

I don't know about ZR1.

Maybe.

10% interest, $4,000 on payment that you have your fucking supercar on the road.

Does this come with the Jean cargo shorts?

At the new mountains, yeah.

It's mandatory.

I think I agree with you in the sense that now that it's a rear engine,

like flat plane crank, V8, it's got over a thousand horsepower on the ZR1.

Right?

Even the Z06 has close to it, right?

Yeah.

Somewhere around it.

I mean, I think it's in the 600s, but that's an insane number nowadays.

Yeah.

So you don't think any Corvette could ever be.

No.

Because it's kind of the theory with Porsche, right?

It's just spec.

It's a Corvette.

You get a base model and you can spec it out to...

Yeah.

I got you on that.

So that's a tough one because I do think the Corvette is now a supercar.

They're putting supercar numbers.

100%.

But why is it not a supercar?

Because you don't shit your pants when you see one.

But our dads do.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, but come on.

Holy shit.

Son.

We don't because it's an American car that we're familiar with, but do they in Spain?

Would they shit their pants if they saw one?

Well, yeah, but...

See?

Wait a minute and you're from Spain.

Yeah.

But you don't shit your pants when you see one.

Well, he is...

JP is Americanized.

Yeah.

Damn.

He's assimilated.

Yeah.

He's watered down.

But that kind of goes against my argument with Porsche.

I don't think any GT3 RS is a supercar.

But what would a GT3 RS do on a track against a...

Respectfully disagree?

Against a 0-1?

I mean, we don't know yet, I guess.

But all I know is that...

That's a great race.

Dan Berry was keeping up with the GT3s in the 0-6 and the C8 0-6.

And he was getting similar times at Chuck Walla.

And he's got a 0-1 coming.

Exactly.

So he's going to knock off 5 seconds.

But wait, you think a GT3 RS is a supercar but a 0-1...

I think...

No, rewind back to my previous statement.

I think a 911 Turbo is a supercar.

And anything beyond that, which is any GT car,

is automatically get supercar status, in my opinion.

So what about the C8 0-6?

Supercar.

Okay.

So you're strictly performance.

Black or white?

He is performance, yeah.

No, because my argument is if a production level car

beats a currently titled supercar,

it takes the belt, it takes the title,

and it's raining champ,

and it takes the title as supercar.

So, okay.

You solidified Mike Tyson with your fucker.

Busta Douglas?

Logan?

Oh, recently?

Logan.

Jake Paul.

He beat Mike Tyson.

I mean, you cannot see the air quotes here, but...

Is he the ultimate champion now?

No, here's the problem, because you're racing

1979, 930 Porsche,

against like a brand new 0-6.

And so that's a different era.

You can't take an original supercar

from the 80s Mike Tyson

and race it against a modern day,

like shitty Logan Paul Corvette.

Yeah.

That's it.

He just debunked your theory.

I would put Logan Paul most of Camaro,

but okay.

Wait, what about the Tesla, the Model S plan?

No dude.

We're getting off turret.

He said performance.

I mean, that's it.

We should discuss that.

Discuss it, yeah.

Yeah, so I think it's no secret.

I'm pretty anti-electric,

but then you guys brought up the hybrid.

You know, the hybrid supercar is a hybrid hypercar.

I don't know, man.

It just seems like

when you start introducing

hybrid or pure electric,

it's kind of like an unfair advantage.

Well, the hybrid is just like

the little extra cocaine for the model

to go fucking crazy.

I would say

Tesla Model S Plaid

is not because it doesn't perform well.

I mean, I'm far too educated

and I'm not proud about it,

but I follow this guy Misha.

He does YouTube videos on the Nurburgring

and he's done multiple laps

in the Model S Plaid

and there's something that goes wrong

every time he drives the car.

Brakes get too hot

because the car is so heavy.

It'll do power surges

where it'll feel fast.

It'll have more power around certain corners

and it's just very unpredictable

and I feel like for that reason

they tried, good try,

but it's just too heavy at the end of the day

and the electronics are

doing electronic things

and causing problems with that car.

I don't think that thing should

even be in the conversation.

When you see a Tesla,

I don't care which one is it,

you don't go wow.

Plus it's comfortable.

You don't make you feel anything.

You don't start it.

When you see it, you don't get excited.

So it's straight line speed.

On a track, a GT3 RS will demolish it.

So I guess it's fair to say

straight line speed doesn't

apply here.

I think it doesn't apply.

I don't think performance really

applies. I think it's just more exotic.

I think it's just more the wow factor.

You see it

and it's like, even Ferraris

we're talking about, if you see a Corvette in Spain,

if you see a Ferrari

in the middle, people go

holy shit.

Any Ferrari though.

But to me, I would argue

against that, since this is

a friendly debate, it is

100% performance based

because a Ferrari with no performance

is not a Ferrari I care about.

Like a drive in a 328

it's a Ferrari

and I imagine it's an amazing experience

but it's not super performance.

In humor me here,

a car becomes more sexy to us

once the performance is proven.

Of course.

We'll see a car

and we'll be like, oh that's an amazing car

and then we'll see the performance

and the GTR32

prime example, not a great car

but it kind of looks like a

Sylvia or like a 240SX

I have one

and it didn't become legendary

until it put down its track numbers

and then everybody's like, wow that's a sexy

no it's not a fucking sexy car.

Well because you put it down in paper

like here's the map kids, let me

2 plus 2 is these

but those cars are unbelievably sexy

and iconic that have terrible performance.

I got a question for JP

would you say that a Daytona

car?

Oh that's a good one.

Why? Because when people see it

they go whoa and they go holy shit

and it's low production.

Miserable car to drive.

Uncomfortable?

Wedge shape looks.

Now the engine is low production though.

What engine they put it on again?

I don't know like a Ford.

JP is like, mind is melting.

Well I was

going to talk about the other thing though

he said the performance makes something even sexier

but he's going to agree with me

the Alfa Romeo 8C.

Oh that car is sick.

Not a 4C 8C.

Unbelievably

not so good performance.

Is it pretty much double the 4C?

V8.

It's totally different here.

But as a car

it doesn't really work.

So you agree that's a super car?

I don't think it's a super car

it's a GT car

but I think that

he say that

a car becomes sexy when you put the numbers down.

Oh I see.

I mean like sexier

and more

like legendary

when you put down

quality numbers like horsepower

numbers around the track

performance base

I was rebutting your argument

you said it has nothing to do with performance

I rebutted that saying that

a car could be amazing

and then once it puts the numbers down

and starts

breaking records

it locks it into the legend status.

Yeah.

Okay.

What other cars come to mind that

that are a super car?

That might be controversial.

I think I would say Ferrari 360.

Wait I want to go back to

That's a super car.

The Pantera.

It's not a super car. Why?

I don't want to talk about it.

It's got a Ford V8

his argument is the answer.

Well, it is so hard

on these ones because Italian body

low production, exotic looking

sexy dudes. It sounds great.

Sounds great. Looks great. People say

holy shit when they see it. Wife's complaining

no doubt. Wife's complaining in the passenger seat.

Wife hates it.

But maybe the soul

is not there.

The soul. The nameplate.

That thing is all soul.

The Tomasol Pantera. Does it move you

when you hear that word? Oh yeah.

It's an unbelievably sexy car.

But it's soulless.

That's a sports car.

It says it's a sports car.

I got a good example.

That's a good thing though.

The Tomasol Pantera I think is like

Here's my thing.

You know what would have been a super car

if it had that performance

and it performed on the track? The DeLorean.

Oh yeah.

That had all the elements that we can all agree on.

Super car minus the performance

and if it would have had like a twin turbo V8

super car all day long.

Yeah, that's a really good point.

Yeah. That's got all the elements.

It was DMC12.

The 12 meant something.

It obviously came

It's like a 12 valve 6 cylinder or something.

Yeah, but everything got dumbed down

It was like promised more than it was able to deliver.

That's a good one.

It had the gullwing doors

or whatever, scissor doors.

It was so unique.

And it's in a movie

which I guess that made it legendary

but the performance obviously didn't.

So that's a good one.

What about the Acura NSX

the first gen? Super car.

Super car.

So we can all agree on that one.

We're all on the same page.

The only reason JP agrees

it's the super car is because Senna picked it.

Yeah.

All right, how about this one?

Senna can't drive a fucking

I don't know.

Anything the guy touches.

How about the most recent

the hybrid Acura NSX

the gen 2?

I'd say super car.

It performs but

the run is

excitement on it.

Because it didn't sell well.

It didn't sell. It's very cool.

Amazing looking car and everything

but it doesn't have that special extract.

It was supposed to be V8 I believe

and then the hybrid V6 right?

You know what's funny about the NSX

is when we see one on the street

we say oh, NSX

or as Nick and I say we go in a kek

but we don't say

holy shit would you look at that

No one ever says that.

On a first gen one?

On any NSX?

I don't know.

I get a little excited.

When I see one on the wild I feel like I get

I'm like oh, I always try to catch up

and throw me dudes.

Different than everything else on the road

even in its time it looked different.

It stand apart, it was raw

It was on the Ferrari

because

there was a Ferrari killer

and it was practical though

in the sense that it was reliable.

It was reliable.

Not practical in cargo capacity

but it was an exotic looking thing

it was low

it makes you go wow.

Plus it had VTEC

Right.

Let's talk about that VTEC

Now the I8

the BMW

It's just like I'm gonna veto that

discussion too.

That might be worse than Tesla.

It had the look

like the DeLorean

but it was everything else crap.

I think if they

they could have combined with Tesla

with like a plaid drivetrain

Yeah, put that design

with a V8 twin turbo

Exactly.

Even if they put

at the time

that car came out I feel like there was

the N55 which is an inline 6

turbo engine like had they just beefed

one of those up and put that in there

I think it's a 4 cylinder in that car

3 cylinder that's right

It's a 3 cylinder turbo hybrid.

It was a halo car too

It came out

to draw people to the dealerships

I think that car did terribly as well

I think that car didn't sell super well

It was bad and horrible driving car

All based on the performance

It was not that slow though

It was horrible

It kind of revolutionized

the hybrid game

It was one of the first to market

to have an electric powertrain

or whatever assisted powertrain

When did that come out? 2013?

Yeah, I think

It was like the end of the E90

generations

2012 I think they started

Design wise the front is very nice

I like it

The back I don't know what the fuck

I agree

Looks like Tron

They pull it out

Let's go back to the hypercar

Supercar comparison

Coen, Ziggs, Pagani

When I said those name brands

Nick was like now you're talking hypercars

Obviously there is another segment now

because there's a lot more available

What defines a hypercar

Is it the price

the exclusivity of it

Is it performance based

on the supercars that can go

200

I think that's more

I mean my mind like I said

is like the hybrid enhancement

But like

the 918 and the LaFerrari

how long ago they came out

I think I want to say

my brain works right

I think that was like the 2014

2014 around that

How much power they have

800

What was it

Like 5600

So they just like bump it up

Like a big chunk

So you're saying it's horsepower figures

It's like, yeah

It's almost a thousand horsepower

I think that with the hazel on the hybrid

2015

They just made them unbelievably fast

2015 only 500 units made

6.3 liter V12

949

That's the LaFerrari

It was a breakthrough though

Before that it was naturally aspirated

or turbo or whatever

600 horsepower or whatever

But let's not forget

Bugatti released the Veyron

in 2006

and that had 1001 horsepower

So they started the

hypercar trend

And I even look at

I think

this will be debated for sure

I think the EB110S is a hypercar

The first hypercar

And I know it doesn't have a thousand horsepower

but it was the first move

where they're like let's throw turbos on this crazy engine

and they put four turbos on a V12

What about the Jaguar

Another hypercar

Was it the XJ

What was that one again

XJ2000

XJ220

The EB110

only had 134 ever built

That's a really

good look

There was one at SEMA

It was at Radwa too

It resembles Diablo

Is there a third one in there

between those two

The Zonda

When did the Zonda come out

That's New York though

with the Jaguar

That was like 90s

early 90s

The EB110 fun fact

is when Bugatti was actually owned by an Italian

There was like a little period there

and that was the only car he made

and then Volkswagen eventually bought it out

I just learned

I didn't know that Bugatti was so old

The first Zonda was debuted in 99

at the Geneva Auto Show

So it was late 90s

probably 2000s

like when it was released

So still later than the EB110

and the Jaguar

What was the McLaren F1

That's true

You're right

Because that was mid 90s

What did that one sell

when we were at Sotheby's

Sotheby's

I want to say

13, 14

I think it was 13 million

I want to say

That car for whatever reason

Obviously there's the seating position

You could fit three and you're sitting in the center

But for whatever reason

that car goes down as one of the first

I think it has that same mirror effect

of

people that grew up in the 90s

It's our mirror

You know what we didn't discuss

what used to define a supercar

It used to take the title

as the fastest car in the world

Remember that

And then

going around the track

and the circuit became a thing

Because it used to just be about top speed

Because there was a time

when the F1 held it for like

two decades

It had the top speed record for a long time

And I think that's what attributes

to its iconic status today

But would that be a hypercar?

It's hard, I don't know

The question was what's the first hypercar

Hypercar

I would say

I would agree with Nick

I don't think they had the title yet

But it was like the introduction

of something way

way crazier than whatever supercar was

You had the Testerosa

and then the Jaguar

The Testerosa looked

outdated

So I think that was the introduction

of something greater

but not yet considered hypercar as it is

So you think the Jag XJ220

is the first hypercar?

Not yet

It was like the introduction

but not yet

Even the hypercars

the 918 and all that

new cars

it's still hard to beat them

So they don't have any Jaguar

you got beat

I would say Veyron

1000 plus horsepower

but it had like two ignitions

I'm with you there

Four turbos

And when you see a Veyron

People that even have money

don't even take them out

You can't just drive that car

just to drive it

Ed Bolian drove his from Vegas

to New York

But he's like an influencer

He's trying to disrupt the game

But he also

gets views because he's taking it out

and it's breaking down

He knows what he's doing

Well there are people who get views

by lighting their supercars on fire

So it's not all about the views

Vipers

Dodge Viper

Supercar

You agree? You think it is a supercar

I don't think so

It's an amazing car

I love vipers

But if you have

a truck with the same engine

a supercar

because the Ram SRT 10

it was a Viper

single cab you could get those

They were putting similar numbers in it

So

That's a super truck

Super truck

Speaking of trucks

there was a one point the GMC cyclone

that was on a front cover

of a magazine next to a Ferrari

So that would essentially say

if a cyclone can beat a Ferrari

I think that was more straight line speed

obviously

Which Ferrari was it?

I think it was a 348 of the era

Yeah

It was either road and track or car and driver

and had the cyclone on that

That was on GMC

GM was doing cool stuff

Well it was a big engine

in a little truck

Let's remember also supercars before they were

It was 348

That's awesome

And then they had an SUV

called a Typhoon

That was Turbo as well

I just loved the Typhoon

We're getting to different

four lining

Second generation

No, SVT lightning

I mean I think anything that's

like you said, it's not a

race car

It's practical

You could put 2x4s in the back

That's what I was saying about Viper

If you have a truck already

with that engine, I don't think it loses

the supercar aspect

So we all agree it's got to be track focused

It's got to be something that you can

It was built for the track

It's not built for

But the first supercars were built for the track

like the Mura

I think so, yeah

They were built for speed

They were built for speed and exclusivity

But they were driving those

on the Nurburgring when that came out

on the old ring

I mean, yeah, of course

You can't use that as a definition

for a supercar

Everything gets driven

Back in the day

That was one of the cars that was the fastest

around the Nurburgring

That's what I'm thinking

So are we in agreement

the only supercar to come out of Japan is the NSX?

I don't know if I agree with

the R32 as a supercar

I agree with you on the performance

and it's a legendary status

But I don't look at it and be like, oh that's a supercar

What about the Toyota 2000 GT?

No, GT

Well, that's true

But it is like a V12

High horsepower, high power

Limited production

Legendary status

Legendary numbers

If you go back to that era

and nothing was able

to compete with it

I don't know

I call it a supercar of that era

I think we all just agree

to disagree on

NSX was the only one we agreed on

Well, there was a few we all agreed on

like the Italian cars

and some German cars

But there's a lot we disagree on

There's like more that we disagree on

than agree on

My take is if it's like an exotic brand

but you

Ferrari makes GT cars

I think like

an FF or a GTC Lusso

has a backseat

but I see that's got a V12 in it

that's a supercar

but it's a GT car, it's built for comfort

it's practical

so I can't say black or white

if it's practical and it's comfortable

it's not a supercar

like then the GTC Lusso

would contradict that

Well, we're a house divided too

because Nick and I are under the impression that

Porsche 911s turbos

and above are supercars

and you guys disagree

But you don't see one in Manchester Fane

I do

We do a lot of WoWs over there

at Rancho Santa Fe

The problem with the 911s

is it's like everyone's got one

That doesn't make it

not a supercar

It loses the

prestige

People aren't excited about 911s anymore

It's like telling someone you're a real estate agent

and you're like yeah, so is everyone else in the room

Yeah, that's true

I think the Corvette

is the one because it's like

it's a track monster

it's revolutionized

it's like an affordable car

that can go over 200 miles per hour

but it's not a supercar

it's a rear engine

or a mid-engine

there's so many things about the new

ZR1 and even the Z06

that would debunk some of the things that I say

because you can spec

it looks like a base

you can find one for 60 grand

so anything that you can find

for 60 grand, for example

a 911, what's like a base 911 today

around 110

exactly

but a GT3RS is

350 or what?

somewhere around there

if you can even buy one

you have to be allowed to buy one

there's so many like that

we can't even touch Ford

like the GTs

those are supercars

it's a supercar

but now you have the Mustang GTD

the GTD

smokes everything

it's a Mustang

so what's your opinion?

it's a supercar

it's a super sports car

but you'll say

but a ZR1 is not a supercar

but that Mustang

he's sticking to his guns

I'm saying that he smokes everything on the road

but he's not a supercar

it's a Mustang

but he makes you go holy shit

but he's not a supercar

anything Mustang, anything is not a supercar

ever

I think it has to be bespoke

like a Ford GT is bespoke

it has to be more tailored

but look at the 2005 version

when they brought it back

that car has like Ford

Escort like turn signals in it

it has like little

trim pieces from other cars

that's part been shared

but also the envelope with headlights from an Eson

and they asked Martin

with pieces of Volvo in it

I got something good

that we will all agree on

I'm almost certain

I think all McLarens

are supercars

I agree with you

I don't know if he does

well

you have the Mercedes

the McLaren

is that a supercar

that's a supercar

that's absolutely a supercar

that's a hard one

it's so unique dude

people see it and they say holy shit

it looks like the other brands

but

I don't know

how they drive, how they perform

if you get your phone out to take a picture

then that's a supercar

I mean I rode in the 570S

thanks to you're the man

and I mean

no no no but I'm talking about the Mercedes

how it drives

it's a V8 in there

supercharged V8

but then you have the SL65 with a V12

I think they're heavy

the SLR McLaren is a

pretty heavy car

and they're higher, they're more like peak peak

and I think they haul ass

but I don't know about

performance on the track

in an SLR McLaren

but

it's heavy, heavy means

heavy usually means

not the best

and even like displacement isn't necessarily

going to give you that

moniker because like an SL65

what is that

a 6 point

something leader

12 cylinder

in a small little compact car

I think it gets like 500 plus horsepower stock

but that's not a supercar

but the SLR McLaren

would have V8 is

and they came out somewhere

around the same time

yeah

what's the closest that Subaru ever came

the SVX

shout out Bucky

Subaru

Supercar

the rally one

22B

cause that was a monster in a different type of track

rally supercars

rally car would be a supercar

I think so

wedged shaped

absolute supercar

yeah but then again

there was cars that beat it eventually

the Quattro

supercar

but I think supercar really means

that you have to be on the top all the time

there's going to be

there's going to be other cars

that are going to beat them

you can only stay on top for

the 360

I mean the F1

the McLaren was one

you set the bar

for having the number one fastest car

like fastest around the track or whatever

and you're only going to hold that

I mean the Nurburgring is like

the track to beat

so you're like oh who's the current fastest on the Nurburgring

and you can hold that title for maybe six months

before a new model comes out and you're like okay

that's it

but then that's why Porsche

technically a supercar

Porsche did that with no rules with the 919

on the Nurburgring

where the fastest car around the Nurburgring

was like six minutes and 30 seconds

and then they just built that car

and it took a whole minute off

of their lap

but I guess that doesn't count because

it's not a production car

they built two of them

yeah

that's tough to say

it's too bespoke

like the Alfa Romeo the 33 Stradale

they came out with it

and only made 33 of them

that would be for a supercar

but it's a very small production

you gotta be able to buy it

it's a normal person

it has the MC20 Maserati engine

which I think dumps it down

to me that looks

like a hypercar

the new Alfa Romeo

the first one

that was a track focused car

and they made some for production

is that the car that we saw at Monterey

when we were at Laguna Seca

was that that Alfa?

that was like the Viper version

it was like only a few were made

the 33 Stradale

it came out last

maybe two years ago now

but it's actually on the roads

a Viper can't be a supercar

because the truck shares the same motor

yeah

I disagree

I think that Viper

the non-truck Viper is totally

they're supercars

they're so unique looking

okay let me debunk that

that argument

didn't the 4GT

or the

share that motor

with the different

but you agree that a 4GT

is a supercar

well the first 4GT

was a motor build for that car

or they took another motor

I don't remember

so they did use

Mustang motors I want to say

or they used some V8

and then eventually

down the line they made

a very specific big block

but they used the block from Mustang

and they modified the share out of it

I think they made one from scratch

but not first off when the GT

started getting produced back in the day

I think with the RAM and the Viper

thing

he was married to a truck

I see

I think I know

JD's point

he sticked into his guns

because any car you mentioned to him that had a production run

meaning like it had multiple models

of that same nameplate

not a supercar

I get that

because it says SRT10

on the truck

yeah it's a hard topic though

you go to Corvette and

which one you want we have it here

if not I will bring you from Santti

it's there it's available

supercar is

I have plenty of money

so are we

do we call the new 4GT

the new model not the

a million percent

not the original one

the new one is a supercar

so check this out

the modern 4GT shares its engine

F150

it's an EcoBoost

it can't be a supercar

but is it the same

it's modified for that car

yeah it's tuned

I mean that car won Le Mans in 2017

that's the thing

we're all in agreement

the Dodge Viper is a supercar

or it's a truck

there you go

sorry Steve

the Viper is tough

because I don't know

maybe like an ACR

like the first Viper

first generation

no door locks

no roof nothing

no nannies

supercar

because it just put a statement

like look at this

but that's like a cobra then you think a cobra is a supercar

because that's what it's really based on

like a cobra

Shelby

and the GT

and the GT makes the cobra look like a sports car

you know

see

there's an argument

against anything

when the Viper came out

I don't care who you were

you would spaz out

Viper R

it was a poster

yeah 100%

like Steve's generation

gen 2 poster car

the first one came out it was like

holy shit

it was a Viper

so you would say

you probably lost your

affinity for Viper's

oh no I love Viper's

100% and the Ram is one of my favorite trucks

hmm

let me ask you this

you think the first gen RT10

with no roof

pretty much you zip up the windows

that you think is a supercar

like for example

the Spider, the convertible that Steve has

the Mamba edition

that's not a supercar because it doesn't have anything that's unique about it

I think so

I don't want to

he doesn't care

I love

I love Viper's

but I don't think that's already a supercar

this is not that

because the RT10s were significantly less

than like a GT

which is second gen

like the one he has

grey with the red stripes

technically that doesn't have anything bespoke about it

yeah

but I think the first one

it was a supercar and then it was like watered down

not really watered down

but made it better

you burned your leg when you got out of it

all that shit is supercar worthy

like yeah it's not useful

you cannot even lock the doors

what kind of engineering is that

thank you

supercar? yes or no

no he thinks GT

I think GT too

I'm trying to think of one that would be a supercar

they did make some V12s

they're all so similar

what is the bolt tail or the speed tail

something like that

the Valkyrie

the Valkyrie is definitely

that's a hypercar

they don't have any supercars

GT cars and a hypercar

which I love

I think that car is sick

all the girls that James Bond was driving with

they were all very comfortable

that's true

sometimes too comfortable

Maserati

supercar enough

the MC20

is the only one that really questions

but it's

I feel like that's like a 4C

what is the one that came out with the Enso

the MC12

that's absolutely a supercar

period

those are the two halo cars

of that line up

you don't think a Ghibli is a supercar

it's a freaking Chrysler

it depends

to me

my argument has always been

it has to be that halo car

that brings you to the dealership

you rarely see him

so that's my argument

I'm with you on that

the 4C

was like the halo car

but I don't think it's a supercar at all

which is the same argument that Vic has

if it brings you to the dealer

stops in your tracks, makes you take a picture

makes you say wow or holy moly

the 4C though

came out after the 8C

the 8C was the first car

we actually got 8Cs in the US

we did

only a few

right before the 4C came

2010s

or maybe late 2000s

I don't know anyone with them

I've seen one

it was one in Mexico

never here

in Mexico City

in Queretaro

so smaller

that was a cool spot

so 4C

I went like fuck

what the hell is it

I'll bet

the 4C

so you didn't feel like you were driving a supercar

carbon tub

uncomfortable noisy

not supercar

that's the definition of a supercar

that's sports cars

I'm sure Allie was very uncomfortable in it

she hated when we took it out

no storage

so why not

you go for the displacement too

2L

1.7

what's the minimum

engine size

in my opinion it should be

8

that's contrary

what you said earlier

reference send us favorite car

not an 8C

in my opinion it's 8 but there's a few

like the GT and the

few exceptions

that break the

couple exceptions

great debate

great topic

I want to wrap up with

the Porsche 996.2

so

earlier me and JP were talking about it

and he was saying he thinks

why don't you actually share what you think about the DATU

oh that is probably

on the road right now

water cooled

911 is the prettiest one

in my opinion

what do you think about the DATU

hahahaha

make let's not

talk about it

I think the 996 in general not just the DATU

because we're talking specifically about DATU

but the 996 is the prettiest 911

right on the road

he got so over

the market just flooded with trends

it became a trend

it was an overnight sensation

it was like

whatever it's another 911

you go to ranchers and defense

and everybody hated the 996

it was the ugly DATU

like the 996 whatever

nobody wanted it now

the few ones that you see on the road is like

but that's for a different reason so one thing

you need to understand about our friend JP

is he likes things that are different

as do I

but just because it's unique and different

doesn't make it pretty

I think it's prettier than the other ones though

you think it's pretty because not that many people have it

you want to be different

and

design wise

it's very similar to 997

all the stuff that we're saying

but the size

everything it's nice

so the reason there's a different theory

and this is like a whole new podcast for a different day

but the reason that 996

is they're becoming popular

is because in the beginning nobody wanted them

because like you said is the ugly DATU

and so now you can afford it

and so everybody's getting them

so the supply and demand tells us that

now that everybody's snapping them up

because they were cheap now they're expensive

because everyone has them

but the beauty about that one though

they were so cheap

and so

not wanted that most of the 996

they're crap

so when you see a good 996

that's cool

they just became nothing

and now it's like okay I'm here

and the design really mature

we're talking about the 992 because of the headlights

it really like mature

because you can't argue that DATU headlights

are runny egg anymore

so maybe you can say the interior

is still not as nice but

when you look at it you're like the yellow

GT3 out there right

we look at that and we're like holy shit

that's a beautiful car

why does no one like

these

so when you see one

like no one brought these out

because they're almost like embarrassed to bring them out

or they traded them in

so you saw all the 997s

and so on with round headlights

now when you don't see round headlights

you're like oh shit that's actually pretty cool

that Porsche made cars like that

it's different

and it's like what JP said

they were unwanted

therefore they were cheap

therefore people with

a little bit of money to spend

so they didn't care for them

that's what makes it classic

I got this thing for cheap

I'm just going to drive it in the ground

I'm not going to maintain it

whatever like a newer one or a GT car

and so then they fell apart

and then people threw them wet

and now they're hard to find

the same shit with like

super high production cars like the Golf

Mark II everywhere in its time

cheap car I've run down

nothing left and the few ones left

it's hard to find

it's

expensive, there's demand

there's demand

the newest 996s are 20 years old now

so think about it

there's some out there that are over 25 years old

that are not going to be

they weren't well kept

because it wasn't worth it

to keep it well kept

and the design is maturing well

and that's important

it's not like the I8 that we were talking about

it's how it looks like

it's how they

yours is much more timeless

and like even the interiors get knocked

I think mainly because of the box

they're sharing the same interior

and that's an entry level car

but when you think about

look at the 993 that's here

the interior on that car

it's super simple, it's basic

which is what people want

they want an analog feel

and obviously it's air cooled

it's not like it has a screen

it has the little mini

climate control screen, but other than that

there's nothing about it that's going to be like

wow this is disgusting

I can't even look at it, I need to change this

it's basic

you would expect more from a more contemporary 911

but it came

from a time when the tech was still basic

it was the early 2000s, late 90s

we don't have traction control in our cars

that's awesome

they're gravitating toward

simple interiors

nobody wants to

like you said a screen on their dash

well even the freaking the new Cayans

they were all touch screen

in the center

and now they have clicks

because who wants

fingerprints everywhere

there's no feeling

I think your 996 is cable driven

it is, everything is

which I think

2001 later

it went to like a drive by wire

yeah I'm happy to

have everything cable driven

all mechanical, the more mechanical the better

for me at least

I'm sorry, I'm just learning

it's not cable and grit

read your hat

cables and grit

yeah, so alright

well I just wanted to bring that up simply because

we were talking about it and

I am considering eventually selling the 996

and

the 996.2 is like

it's like when I bought my first Montero

I wanted the generation

I learned, okay wait this isn't the off road version

this doesn't have a solid rear axle

so I want the one with the solid rear axle

which was the 90

the ones that came in the mid to late 90s

so I bought that one

now I'm thinking, okay if I'm going to get another 911

I'd stay 996 but I'll go

.2

it's kind of like 997s

.2 for the manual

or the PDK

because they didn't have PDK back then

with the .1997

so everyone obviously

got the manual because you were saying the automatics

were shit, right?

yeah, they're a slush box

alright, well appreciate it JP

welcome back on the show

maybe we'll do more now

so Josh, Nick

we'll see you guys around on the analog

and grit podcast

have fun. Thanks for having us Vic

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