A lively collaboration between 9WERKS Radio and Curb & Canyon brings together four Porsche enthusiasts from across the globe to discuss the best and worst Porsche designs, sparked by Michael Mauer's departure as Porsche's chief designer. The hosts share personal stories about driving various Porsche models, including the Cayman and 993, highlighting the nuances of different generations and modifications like exhaust upgrades. They also reflect on the unique challenges and joys of podcasting across time zones and the camaraderie among Porsche owners who frequently swap cars to experience different driving dynamics.
Has Porsche design reached a turning point? In this special collaboration episode, 9WERKS Radio joins forces with James and Andy from the Curb & Canyon podcast to dissect the past, present, and high-stakes future of Porsche aesthetics. With the legendary Michael Mauer stepping down after two decades and former McLaren/Bentley designer Tobias Sühlmann taking the reins as the new Head of Style, we ask the big question: where does Porsche design go from here?
The team dives deep into the "Highs and Lows" of the Mauer era—from the redemption of the Panamera and the futuristic Taycan to the challenges of keeping the 911 icon fresh across the 997, 991, and 992 generations. We also tackle the "elephant in the room": the controversial transition to an all-electric lineup and how Sühlmann’s background in hypercars (like the McLaren Solus GT and Bentley Batur) will influence the next generation of Stuttgart’s sports cars.
In this 9WERKS x Curb & Canyon Special:
The Changing of the Guard: What Tobias Sühlmann’s appointment means for the future of the 911.
Mauer’s Legacy: Ranking the greatest (and most controversial) designs from 2004–2026.
The SUV vs. Sports Car Debate: Can Porsche maintain its DNA as it prioritizes the Macan and Cayenne EV?
Design "Highs & Lows": From the 918 Spyder masterpiece to the models that missed the mark.
The "McLaren-isation" of Porsche: Discussing the influence of CEO Michael Leiters and the new design direction.
Links & Community
Follow Curb & Canyon: Search for "Curb & Canyon" on your favorite podcast app.
‘9WERKS Radio’ @9werks.radio is your dedicated Porsche and car podcast, taking you closer than ever to the world’s finest sports cars and the culture and history behind them.
The show is brought to you by 9werks.co.uk, the innovative online platform for Porsche enthusiasts. Hosted by Porsche Journalist Lee Sibley @9werks_lee, and 911 owner and engineer Andy Brookes @993andy, with special input from friends and experts around the industry, including you, our valued listeners.
If you enjoy the podcast and would like to support us by joining the 9WERKS Driven Not Hidden Collective you can do so by hitting the link below, your support would be greatly appreciated.
"...plus the mid-engine porches by using the code NineWorks10 at heritagepartscentre.com..."
Mid-engine means the car's engine is placed in the middle of the car, not in the front or back. This helps the car drive better and handle corners well.
A mid-engine layout means the engine is located between the front and rear axles, usually behind the driver. This placement improves weight distribution and handling balance in sports cars.
"...all manner of porches from 356 to 997 inclusive plus the mid-engine..."
The Porsche 356 is an old sports car made by Porsche. It was the first car they made and is known for being light and fun to drive.
The Porsche 356 is the company's first production automobile, produced from 1948 to 1965. It is a lightweight and nimble sports car that laid the foundation for Porsche's future models.
"...ole performance exhaust system on a friend's 718 Cayman. And having tried to fit in an older generation C..."
The Porsche Cayman is a sporty car that has its engine in the middle, which helps it drive really well around corners. It's a smaller, fun car that many people like because it feels fast and easy to control.
The Porsche Cayman is a mid-engine sports car known for its balanced handling and strong performance, often praised for its driving dynamics. The 718 Cayman, in particular, features turbocharged flat-four engines and is a popular choice among enthusiasts looking for a more affordable Porsche sports car.
""Can we get back to talking about your 911, please? I've had enough.""
The Porsche 911 is a famous sports car that has been made for many years. It has its engine in the back and is known for being fun to drive.
The Porsche 911 is a legendary rear-engine sports car known for its distinctive design and driving dynamics. It has been in continuous production since the 1960s and is a benchmark in the sports car world.
"I remember emailing you once and saying, hey, could I do a piece about the GT4? And you're like, well, if you look on the front cover of the magazine, the clue's right there in the title, mate. And I was like, yep, good. No problem. Loud and clear. Gotcha. Gotcha. But yes, I do. I miss the GT4 a lot. That car was great. Such a good car. Such a good car."
The Porsche 911 GT4 is a special version of the 911 made to be really good on race tracks. It has a stronger engine and better parts to help it go faster and handle better.
The Porsche 911 GT4 is a high-performance variant of the 911, designed with a focus on track capability and driving precision. It typically features enhancements such as a more powerful engine, improved suspension, and aerodynamic upgrades.
"But it also has the RS gearbox, RS transmission. What a revelation that was. I could not believe the difference between my 964 C4 and this car."
The RS gearbox is a special type of car transmission that helps the car speed up faster by keeping the engine working in the best way.
The RS gearbox refers to a shorter ratio transmission used in Porsche RS models, designed to keep the engine in its optimal power band for better acceleration and responsiveness.
"whether that's the weight of the clutch, the weight of the steering"
The clutch is a pedal you press to switch gears in a manual car. It helps connect and disconnect the engine from the wheels so you can change speeds.
The clutch is a mechanical component that engages and disengages the engine from the transmission, allowing the driver to change gears smoothly in a manual transmission car.
"feeling that the lack of 100 kilos of all-wheel drive, that was abundantly clear from the get-go"
All-wheel drive means the car sends power to all four wheels at the same time, which helps it grip the road better when driving in rain, snow, or on rough surfaces.
All-wheel drive (AWD) is a drivetrain system that powers all four wheels of a vehicle simultaneously, improving traction and stability, especially in slippery or uneven conditions.
"Well, you let me drive it. It was Porsche's Taycan. That press car."
The Porsche Taycan is a fast electric car made by Porsche. It doesn't use gas and is known for being very quick and smooth to drive.
The Porsche Taycan is an all-electric luxury sports sedan introduced by Porsche, known for its high performance and advanced electric drivetrain technology.
"That is a typical, so a Taycan, but it is Taycan Turbo S Sport Turismo. It's a 188 grand worth of Taycan."
The Porsche Taycan Turbo S Sport Turismo is an electric car that looks like a sporty wagon. It is fast and uses electricity instead of gas to move.
The Porsche Taycan Turbo S Sport Turismo is a high-performance electric wagon variant of the Taycan lineup, known for its sporty driving dynamics and electric powertrain. It combines Porsche's electric technology with a practical Sport Turismo body style.
"I got a little bit of travel sickness when I test drove the Taycan turbo. I think it was a turbo that I tried."
The Porsche Taycan Turbo is a fast electric car made by Porsche. It can go very quickly because it uses electric motors instead of a regular engine.
The Porsche Taycan Turbo is a high-performance electric vehicle (EV) from Porsche, known for its powerful acceleration and advanced electric drivetrain technology.
"Yeah, yeah. And now we're in the new Cayenne is even faster than that, right? It's now... the..."
The Porsche Cayenne is a big car that looks sporty but can carry more people and stuff inside. It's like a fast and fancy family car that can also go off-road if needed.
The Porsche Cayenne is a luxury mid-size SUV that combines Porsche's sports car performance with the practicality of an SUV. It has evolved over generations to become faster and more refined, making it a significant model in Porsche's lineup for those needing space without sacrificing driving excitement.
"...after 21 years being replaced by Tobias Suleiman, who's come over from McLaren. Any opinions, top level? Yeah, so this new guy Tobias, he's come from McLaren, but before that..."
McLaren is a car company that makes very fast and fancy sports cars. They also race cars in big competitions like Formula 1.
McLaren is a British automotive manufacturer known for producing high-performance supercars and participating in Formula 1 racing. They are recognized for their innovative design and engineering in the supercar segment.
"Yeah, so this new guy Tobias, he's come from McLaren, but before that, wasn't he at Bugatti and before that he was Aston Martin, maybe? I'm quite excited about what that might represent..."
Bugatti is a car company that makes very fast and very expensive cars that are special and rare.
Bugatti is a French luxury automotive brand famous for producing some of the fastest and most expensive hypercars in the world. They focus on extreme performance and exclusivity.
"Yeah, so this new guy Tobias, he's come from McLaren, but before that, wasn't he at Bugatti and before that he was Aston Martin, maybe? I'm quite excited about what that might represent..."
Aston Martin is a car company that makes fancy and fast cars that look very stylish and are often seen in movies.
Aston Martin is a British luxury car manufacturer known for producing elegant grand tourers and sports cars, often associated with James Bond films. They combine performance with luxury and style.
"...does that mean he's going to bring this more kind of supercar, creative concept to Porsche? It's a little scary in some ways because we're also tied to the silhouette"
A supercar is a very fast and special kind of sports car that is designed to be better than regular cars in speed and looks.
A supercar is a high-performance sports car that offers exceptional speed, handling, and design, often produced in limited numbers with advanced technology and high price tags.
"But he was a creative influence in the 918 Spider, I think."
The Porsche 918 Spyder is a very fast and special car made between 2013 and 2015. It uses both a gasoline engine and electric motors to go really fast while saving fuel.
The Porsche 918 Spyder is a limited-production hybrid supercar produced from 2013 to 2015. It combines a powerful V8 engine with electric motors for exceptional performance and efficiency.
"Well, what I like that I've seen in the last 10 to 15 years is them testing out new ideas in models like the Panamera, like the 3D headlights or some of the interior styling."
The Porsche Panamera is a fancy car with four doors that is fast like a sports car but also good for everyday use. Porsche uses it to try out new ideas and features.
The Porsche Panamera is a luxury four-door sedan that combines sports car performance with the practicality of a sedan. It often serves as a platform for Porsche to introduce new technologies and design elements.
"Well, what I like that I've seen in the last 10 to 15 years is them testing out new ideas in models like the Panamera, like the 3D headlights or some of the interior styling."
3D headlights are fancy car lights that look cool and help you see better by shining light in smart ways.
3D headlights refer to advanced lighting technology that uses three-dimensional design elements to improve light distribution, aesthetics, and sometimes adaptive lighting functions.
"...atforms like the Panamera and the Cayenne and the Macan first, and if they've been successful, if they'v..."
The Porsche Macan is a smaller SUV that drives more like a sports car than a typical big family car. It’s good if you want something fast but also useful for daily life.
The Porsche Macan is a compact luxury SUV that shares platforms with other Volkswagen Group vehicles but is tuned for sporty driving characteristics. It has been successful in combining Porsche performance with everyday usability, appealing to buyers wanting a sporty yet practical vehicle.
"We'll watch the story unfold, but this is a good opportunity to just look at the entire history book of Porsche design language, 911 and other Porsche sports cars as well, right?"
Porsche design language is the special way Porsche cars look. They have certain shapes and styles that make them easy to recognize and feel like a Porsche.
Porsche design language refers to the consistent styling cues and aesthetic principles that define the look and feel of Porsche cars across different models and generations. It includes elements like the shape of the headlights, body lines, and overall proportions.
"...izing that's a special car versus that's the Ford Cortina or whatever it was my parents had. That's what I..."
The Ford Cortina was a very common car in the UK many years ago, used by lots of families because it was cheap and easy to drive. Many people remember it as a normal car their parents might have had.
The Ford Cortina was a popular family car produced primarily in the UK from the 1960s to the early 1980s, known for its affordability and practicality. It became a common sight on British roads and is often referenced nostalgically as a typical everyday car of its era.
"It represents that major kind of milestone in Porsche and the transformation from, you know, one type of engine to the water cooled."
A water-cooled engine uses water or liquid to keep the engine from getting too hot, helping it run better and last longer.
A water-cooled engine uses liquid coolant circulated through the engine block to maintain optimal operating temperatures, improving performance and emissions compared to air-cooled engines.
"And then it makes me laugh. It took four model years for someone to look at the back and then go..."
The Ford Model T was one of the first cars that many people could buy because it was made in large numbers and wasn’t too expensive. It helped lots of people start driving cars.
The Ford Model T, produced from 1908 to 1927, was the first mass-produced car that made automobile ownership affordable for the general public. It revolutionized the automotive industry and is often credited with putting America on wheels.
"... the 911. Plus you come, you see models like the 928 into the fray and the 928 looks like this late 70..."
The Porsche 928 is an older Porsche that has its engine in the front, unlike most other Porsches. It was made to be a comfortable and fast car for long trips.
The Porsche 928 is a grand tourer produced from the late 1970s to the mid-1990s, notable for its front-engine V8 layout, which was a departure from Porsche's traditional rear-engine sports cars. It was designed to be a luxury performance car and remains a unique and collectible model today.
"...oss the lineup, bringing in the 928, the 964, the 959 and the 993. The, for example, I'm like the fron..."
The Porsche 959 is a very fast and special car made a long time ago with lots of new technology for its time. It was made in small numbers and is very rare today.
The Porsche 959 is a highly advanced supercar from the 1980s that showcased cutting-edge technology like all-wheel drive and twin-turbocharging. It was a limited-production model that influenced future Porsche designs and remains a legendary and collectible vehicle.
"I like how that included its halo car in the 959."
A halo car is a special car that a company makes to show off how good they are, even if they don't sell many of them.
A halo car is a high-end, often technologically advanced vehicle produced by a manufacturer to showcase its capabilities and enhance brand image, even if it isn't a high-volume seller.
""The 996.2 headlights, I love, absolutely love. And especially from like a 45 degree kind of side angle," "
These are the newer headlights on the updated Porsche 911 (996) that look more like regular car lights and are liked by many people.
The 996.2 headlights refer to the redesigned headlights introduced in the second phase of the Porsche 911 (996) generation. They replaced the original 'fried egg' style headlights with a more conventional and widely appreciated design.
"And with the 997 GT2 rear wing, I love the fact that they've incorporated aerodynamics and you've got real harsh aggression, large angular side plates to the rear wing."
Aerodynamics is about how air moves around a car. It helps the car go faster and stay steady on the road.
Aerodynamics refers to how air flows around a car, affecting its performance, fuel efficiency, and stability. Good aerodynamic design reduces drag and increases downforce.
"There goes a grand out of my checking account, just because you mentioned carbon fibre. James is going to build an all carbon fibre 996 Dok2."
Carbon fibre is a special material that is very light but very strong. Car makers use it to make cars lighter and faster.
Carbon fibre is a lightweight, strong material made from thin strands of carbon woven together. It is often used in high-performance cars to reduce weight and improve strength and rigidity.
"Yeah, put an exhaust on one of those. My mate Al did exactly that. And he came from a Gen 196 into a base Cayman 981. He's done an exhaust on it. The thing sounds mad."
The exhaust is the part of the car that lets out the gases made by the engine. People sometimes change it to make the car sound louder or cooler.
An exhaust system directs combustion gases away from the engine and can be modified to improve sound, performance, or aesthetics.
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Andy Brooks, how are you mate?
Andy Brooks? No, I'm Andy. You're Lee Sibley. There must be a reason for calling me the full name today.
Yeah, I'm full name checking you today. I want to ask you a quick question. Aside from NineWorks Radio,
where else do you get your Porsche thrills and fill from on the podcast medium?
Oh, who do I use? Who comes to mind? There's that guy from Down Under and that English guy in
America. What are they called? Curban Canyon, I think they're called, aren't they?
Curban Canyon. Well, it's funny you say that, Andy Brooks. Full name again because we are very
delighted to say that today's episode is a very special collaboration between our friends from
Curban Canyon. It is a NineWorks Radio special episode in collaboration with our friends at
Curban Canyon. We've got four enthusiasts on the airway stretching across three continents
and 17 time zones. You've done some homework. This is why I was late. However, we do have much
in common. Our passion is Porsche. Our parlance is the King's English and our priority is sharing
our capers with you, our trusted listeners. Among our clan, we've got four ex-Tottenham 11
columnists. We've got two of the aforementioned podcast, but we've got one special collaboration
and with that in mind, we'd like to formally welcome to NineWorks Radio, Curban Canyons, Andy
and James. Hey, James. Nice intro. That was epic. An intro. I know. I know. That sounded
really good, but Lee was ten minutes late because he was busy in the corridor just chatting
that down. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. In the mirror. Yeah, yeah. AI has rumbled me as
usual. How's things, gents? How have you been? Great. I mean, this is the first time James
and I've seen one another in a minute, right, James? I know, right? We put out our last
podcast for the year just before the Christmas holidays. We tried to do another one in January.
That fell through and here we are in the throws of February and it's like, mate, it's good to
see you. I haven't seen you in about six weeks. I know. So yeah, Lee, Andy, thanks for bringing
us together. Yeah. I appreciate it. I feel like a marriage counselor. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We need it. It's quite a unique setup with your podcast and it really is built on passion
because those kind of time zones, as we'd mentioned, must create some challenges for
you guys, but you make it work so effectively and effortlessly and it's always such a brilliant
listen. So this is really nice to get you guys together. It brings up a wider conversation
around how podcasts are made. So we'll cover that in a private podcast for driven or hidden
collective members because it'd be awesome to dive in and just maybe have a look under
the bonnet as to how you two do it if you're cool with that. Sure. Yeah, totally, totally.
Excellent, excellent. But yeah, for today, it's just lovely to have you on our public
podcast as two highly esteemed guest panellists. We're talking design today. It's off the back
of Michael Mauer stepping down from his rollers head of Porsche or style Porsche, chief Porsche
designer for 21 years. So we'll dive into that shortly. But straight off the bat, we're
very lucky between the four of us to have enjoyed many experiences, not only in our
own Porsches, but other peoples as well, whether it's for creating amazing YouTube content
or podcasts as well. So what was the, yeah, the last Porsche you drove that wasn't yours?
Maybe if we start with you, James. You know, it's a difficult, it's difficult for me to
answer that because I honestly don't remember. I've got this thing about, I've got this thing
about driving other people's cars. It's just, you know, it's like taking your mate's wife out
to see a movie. It's like, it's all right. It's kinda, I mean, it's not like you're doing
other things, but it's just, I don't know, I always got that little sense of, you're
kinda, so I don't know, like, let me think, let me think. It was, it was maybe, actually
no, no, I do remember. I just installed a sole performance exhaust system on a friend's
718 Cayman. And having tried to fit in an older generation Cayman before and failing
miserably. And for anyone who doesn't know me, I'm six foot seven and massive. So getting
into, getting into Cayman has always been a struggle. And he didn't want to do any of
the video. He didn't want to be in the frame. He didn't want to do any of the driving. He
was just like, you take the car, make your video. And so, yeah, I took that out for a
bit of a drive. And I was actually surprised by not only the fact that I could fit in it,
but how much I enjoyed it. And it's the first ever time I've driven a Cayman. So yeah,
718 GTS with about 5,000 miles on it, in like an agate gray color. And yeah, really nice.
Very nice. What did the exhaust sound like? I want to know about that. Because I'm not...
Well, it sounds great now. It's got a sole on the end of it, but...
Here we go with the product placement. Come on.
Come on, I can't hold myself. You know, the factory exhaust was pretty quiet. It had a
Porsche Sports exhaust on it, but it was pretty mediocre. I put the cross axle pipes on and
the valve muffler system on the back. And it wasn't a screamer, but it definitely gave
it a much more kind of raspy, really nice, throaty growl to it. So it sounded really good.
Like, to be fair, I am biased because I'm a big soul fanboy, but, you know, it sounded
very nice.
Well, has that opened the door for you to maybe want to explore a little bit more of mid-engine
Porsche platform?
Definitely. Yeah, I'm really excited about it. And, you know, Andy Gaunt here, my compatriot
from Curb & Canyon, when he had his GC4 experience, I was sort of, alright, yeah, great.
You know, really excited. Can we get back to talking about your 911, please?
I've had enough. But now I've actually experienced the Cayman and I've experienced what it feels
like. Yeah, maybe. Maybe. Yeah, I could see myself driving a few if I got the chance.
I don't know if I'd buy one, but that's, you know, we can talk about that another time.
But it was really nice. Yeah, I was impressed.
Nice. I remember Aussie Andy from the days where you were contributing so handsomely to
the 911 magazine. And I did notice a few stealth mentions of the GC4 in your column in the magazine
about 911s. Do you miss it?
I remember emailing you once and saying, hey, could I do a piece about the GT4?
And you're like, well, if you look on the front cover of the magazine, the clue's right there in the
title, mate. And I was like, yep, good. No problem. Loud and clear. Gotcha. Gotcha.
But yes, I do. I miss the GT4 a lot. That car was great. Such a good car. Such a good car.
You've been searching for another one recently, haven't you?
I'm constantly searching for all sorts of things with no intention of buying.
I think I kick more tyres than anybody I know. But, you know, I'd like another one at some point.
You have ample opportunity to kick the tyres because you have some brilliant friends, Andy,
that are very prone to lending you their cars. And yeah, the fruits of that is usually amazing
content that we see from you on YouTube. But yeah, you've had some amazing drives in
other people's Porsches. So yeah, what was the last one? What was the last experience?
I think it was the last one, at least. My good mate, Kale, has a 993 Carrera 2.
And it's silver. It's got the most tasteful set of mods ever. And Kale's actually really good
for saying, hey, do you want to swap? We do it all the time. And James, I feel really comfortable about it.
It doesn't sort of feel like I'm taking anyone's wife to the movies at all.
It doesn't want about you that, mate.
Yeah, it is. I'm just free swinging like that, you know?
So we'd been on a Sunday morning drive and Kale said to me, hey, do you want to do a swap?
I said, absolutely. And I reckon I photographed this particular 993 100 times on drives over the years.
We've been driving together for nearly 10 years and I'd never had a proper drive in it.
So it's got PSS 10s on it. James' favourite seat, the Ricciaro pole position.
It's got a beautiful set of speed lines on it. But it also has the RS gearbox, RS transmission.
What a revelation that was. I could not believe the difference between my 964 C4 and this car.
That shorter ratio gearbox, the way it meant that the car was always in its power band.
I've never driven an RS and Leonel, obviously you have. The difference was just mind blowing.
I couldn't get over how much I loved that car and so much so that I was kicking tyres on a lot of 993s
for weeks there after just thinking that's got to be the next thing.
But I think it really benefited from this particular gearbox mod that just gave a racecar experience on the road.
Just incredible, incredible.
Yeah, I assume your friend drove your car then, so that was a proper swap over, yeah?
Yeah, amazing. I love that because I can just imagine a 964 V993 owner, there's a divide.
So before you swap back into your own cars, it's a really convivial, amicable handshake.
Very good, but I'm pleased to be back in my own car because a 964, I don't want to always say there's is better
and vice versa with 993 surely.
Well, you know what, I was the opposite. I just said to him how much I loved it.
And we all swap cars actually quite regularly on those sorts of drives and particularly on the rallies we do.
And so you do, you just get this great opportunity to not only experience somebody else's car,
but to do it back to back with your own and then to get back in your own and the differences become apparent.
All those things that were familiar an hour ago, you're suddenly adjusting to again,
whether that's the weight of the clutch, the weight of the steering,
and certainly for me coming from a C4 and getting into his C2,
feeling that the lack of 100 kilos of all-wheel drive, that was abundantly clear from the get-go
and the steering feel was just stunning.
So now more than anything, I told him if he left his keys anywhere near by,
there's a chance he might come back to the table and find his car gone.
Love that, love that.
Nice, yeah, crossing the line from 964 to 993.
How does that work for you, Lee?
Because you drive so many different cars and you come back to Little Irish or your GT3.
For me, an opportunity to drive somebody else's car is just another run-of-the-mill career
or somebody's car, I don't know why I have you.
You're driving some of the most exciting cars out there
and that's a bigger transition from what Andy's just described.
Does that ever, I don't know, does that affect the way you look at your own car?
Are you just grateful that you get to experience all of those cars?
Absolutely, James.
I've just not been found out yet.
That's the only difference between me and anybody else.
100%.
The whole privilege, and it is a privilege, is never lost on me.
It does mean that I'm very happy in Little Irish.
I feel like I don't have to go chasing other things.
I'm very lucky I get to experience them elsewhere,
perhaps without having to pay for the maintenance on them, for example.
Which, up until a couple of weeks ago,
that was quite an economical approach to Porsche ownership
and enthusiasm, to be honest with you.
So that is nice.
I will say, touching on what you said earlier, James,
when that enthusiast or the owner is in the car with you,
I really struggle with that.
I get really self-conscious and overthink all my inputs.
You know the adage, if you're driving down a road,
and there's just one tree at the side of the road,
and if you focus on the tree, you'll hit the tree.
If the owner is in the car with me, I will hit that tree.
I just like the space to understand the car and dial into it.
I've always struggled sometimes with the owners in the car.
Great privilege.
But, Bruxy, you've had a similar scenario.
You know, again, through nine works,
very, very lucky to be in Chuck's key to some great cars.
And you drive...
You just jump right in at the top, mate.
Every time it turns that way, doesn't it?
Yeah, I've been very fortunate.
Always exotica.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I just thank you to everybody that's...
Yeah, learned me one of those great cars.
Just been amazing times over the years.
What about your last one, then?
Last one was the one that...
Well, you let me drive it.
It was Porsche's Taycan.
That press car.
So there we go.
That is a typical, so a Taycan,
but it is Taycan Turbo S Sport Turismo.
It's a 188 grand worth of Taycan.
I don't... Outside of a turbo GT,
that is, like, the most expensive one you can get.
That's classic, Bruxy, that is.
Classic.
Classic.
And the thing is, I enjoyed getting in my BMW afterwards,
more than driving the Taycan, would you believe?
Yeah.
Why would you have to bring up that brand?
Come on.
Come on, I'm a BMW fan.
Lee, can we mute these guys and just have a proper conversation?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I thought there's only one brand in Germany, isn't there?
Come on.
Yeah, yeah.
Bruxy, brief synopsis, then?
Just too good, isn't it?
Too good.
It's very well accomplished,
very so bloody fast.
It's just nuts, isn't it?
Yeah, I just... I don't know.
I need something that's got a bit more...
You need to drive round character-forming bits on a car for me.
So, I like shoddy cars,
because I like to drive a shoddy car well,
rather than drive a great car badly.
That's where I'm at.
I got, like, nausea.
I got a little bit of travel sickness when I test drove the Taycan turbo.
I think it was a turbo that I tried.
It was like coming off, you know, like a ride at Alton Towers or whatever,
and you feel like your brains have been sucked to the back of your head,
and you kind of feel a little bit beaten up.
I mean, if you drive it like I did and tried to just, you know,
tear the casing off it, but...
No car, especially no EV, needs to be that powerful.
It was stupid, ridiculous.
Yeah, yeah.
And now we're in the new Cayenne is even faster than that, right?
It's now... the Cayenne EV is going to be Porsche's fastest car.
Come on.
Mental.
School drop-offs are just going to be crazy.
Sling them out the door.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I just think with the size of the Cayenne, it's kind of open to being that,
yeah, like, do it all Porsche.
Like, you can put your dog in the back, for example,
but a dog is not going to want to be in the back of the fastest ever Porsche
with that sort of acceleration.
That's going to be a horrendous experience for the poor thing.
So, yeah, it's a bit of a head scratcher, that one, to be honest.
It really is, really is.
Yeah, yeah.
Nice.
All right then, guys.
Happy days.
So, yeah, let's move on to the meat and bones of this episode if you're OK to do so.
Let's do it.
It is touching on, as I said, the end of the tenure of Michael Mauer stepping down
after 21 years being replaced by Tobias Suleiman, who's come over from McLaren.
Any opinions, top level?
Yeah, so this new guy Tobias, he's come from McLaren, but before that,
wasn't he at Bugatti and before that he was Aston Martin, maybe?
I'm quite excited about what that might represent in terms of the sort of,
I mean, does that mean he's going to bring this more kind of supercar,
creative concept to Porsche?
It's a little scary in some ways because we're also tied to the silhouette
and the traditional look and feel of the 911.
I'm quite excited actually when I read a little bit about his back story.
Yeah, it might just be that he brings a level of, I think there's always a,
I suppose a balance between flair and austerity when it comes to the design
across Porsche's range, right?
And looking at his background, whether there is just,
they kind of brought him in and said, hey, we're going to muzzle you from day one.
There has to be a reason that they've decided he is the one to take the
baton from this point on.
And I think for him to find appeal in the role, yes, there's that austerity
that exists within Porsche's design DNA, but there's going to have to be
some artistic freedom, some creative freedom for him there, right?
So it could, it could be really interesting.
We might find ourselves feeling quite challenged by what comes down the pipe.
There might be those moments, you know, who knows, there might be another
Friday headlights in our future.
And, you know, we might have to adjust our expectations a little bit,
but it could be, I'm down for it.
I'm excited.
So if Mao has been there for 20, 21 years then, so he wasn't behind the
concept of the 996 because that goes back to the mid 90s, the late 90s.
But he's been around for the 997 and, you know, to the 991.
But he was a creative influence in the 918 Spider, I think.
And so I think also the Taycan and a few other things like that.
So he's been around through quite a few very big, I guess, what would you call it,
creative endeavors or big feats that Porsche have gone through over the last
20 years to stay relevant and to, you know, to continue to push the envelope.
But is there, so there's probably a lot of success there that you could talk about.
My first thought was, is there any ties to Porsche's recent sort of
backpedaling on EVs which he championed a lot of and Porsche's financial results
that, you know, were a bit doom and gloom in the media maybe six months ago.
Is that to do, you know, is that related to his departure at all?
Is it just a happy coincidence?
Yeah, I don't see that, James, to be fair.
I kind of feel like this was a well planned departure from Porsche.
And actually mentioned it to Brooksy previously when we had the pleasure of
interviewing Mr. Mauer over in Stuttgart, which was the summer of 24.
He was hinting, yeah, very strongly hinting that he's off, basically.
And he kept talking about the next person to inherit the role.
And even the way, and it made for a great interview, which is out there on YouTube
for another plug, but he was so relaxed in the way he was answering his questions
and he wasn't tied to towing the PR line.
You could tell he was heading out the door, definitely, definitely.
So, yeah, I think it was more to do with Oliver Bloom, the CEO,
Lutz Metzger, the financial officer.
I think that was directly related to fiscal performance.
Mauer, I think, has just had enough 21 solid years.
It's a massive overhaul at Porsche.
And as he said in the interview, it's not just overseeing the change
in the design language at Porsche, but it's also the background infrastructure.
I mean, I think the design department has grown like five times from when he started.
So overseeing that cultural change, he actually put down as his greatest success
when we asked him what he felt his legacy was.
Wow.
It's such an interesting challenge for Tobias, isn't it?
Because you come in as a creative, there is such a solidly defined visual design DNA
to the brand, right, across the entire range, which in a lot of ways
you would think as a creative can be a little bit of a crutch,
a little bit of a hurdle to overcome.
But actually what it does is it gives you those, you know, great design actually
loves to have edges so you know what the edges of the boxes are
so that you can actually push against those edges and actually push the design.
So I think for him coming in, he's got this incredible kind of benchmark of design
that sits as a kind of a bedrock if you like.
And then he'll be able to work out where are the opportunities to push it,
to perhaps extend and push the boat out.
I actually think it could be a really interesting period for Porsche from a design perspective.
Yeah, could change quite a bit, couldn't it?
I think, isn't there a bit when Michael said that there was something about restraint?
He definitely said that in that interview, didn't he?
There was something about keeping restraint.
So it'd be interesting to see what term to bias if that continues
or he lets the restraint be not so tied up.
It'd be interesting.
It's a great point.
I mean, the GT3 RS, that wing shows huge restraint.
It's kind of what worries me.
It's lovely to see you guys having such enthusiasm for it.
Yeah, I'm going to owe on the side of caution personally because,
and again, I always think these appointments of people right at the top,
their personality is key to the culture.
You know, we've seen the fruits of that with Andreas Preuninger
and his passion for how a proper sports car should be
has just given rise to the most fabulous GT products.
And what worries me with the previous appointments on Tobias' journey,
if I think of Aston Martin and McLaren,
I think of design that's exuberant.
I think Porsche's key design point is elegance
and I don't put exuberance and elegance.
I think they butt against each other quite harshly.
That said, it's an impossible job.
Every single designer I've ever spoken to at Porsche,
especially when talking about the 911, other sports cars are available,
but it's just that tightrope to walk between innovation and tradition.
And I wouldn't want that job, guys.
It's poison jealous, isn't it?
It really is. It's so difficult.
Well, what I like that I've seen in the last 10 to 15 years
is them testing out new ideas in models like the Panamera,
like the 3D headlights or some of the interior styling.
It's gone to the platforms like the Panamera and the Cayenne and the Macan first,
and if they've been successful, if they've tested well,
some of those have made their way into the prestige lineup of the 911s and the Boxer Caymans.
And I quite like that because if I see a pretty garish non-911 Porsche,
I don't really care too much, to be honest.
And I like to know that new things that are being introduced into the Porsche 911 lineup
have been vetted to some degree.
So if he follows that kind of model and he starts putting big Bugatti-style grills
on the front of the Cayenne, I'm not going to be too worried,
but if he starts just throwing in wholesale changes to 911 straight away,
that's going to make me very uncomfortable.
That's the sort of thing that I would worry about.
Talking of the Panamera, wasn't that his first design was the original Panamera?
So I think quite a few people would say that it probably didn't start too well.
Remember the Top Gear episode?
I just remembered Jeremy Clarkson wouldn't look at it.
Again, by his own admission, he said that there could have been improvements to that.
The other thing as well, the end product you see has been tempered by accountants
and engineers since, isn't it?
It's a car design, it's a bit like an architect.
Their job is to create things that you can't afford or aren't actually feasible.
They then get moulded and shaped into the end product,
which has lots of different inputs, some of which are welcome, some of which aren't,
and then you have what you have.
With that in mind, good luck to Tobias, rather you than me.
That's the conversation once your feet are under the desk really.
It's a difficult job, but it's also a really cool job in the automotive industry as well.
So Lee, I think you should get your people to reach out to this Tobias guy
and see if he'll get on the pod.
Let's do the real interview.
I know he's already got the job, but let's do the enthusiast interviews.
James wants to hold his feet to the fire.
Exactly.
What are your ambitions for the fly line of the 911?
Exactly.
We'll watch the story unfold, but this is a good opportunity to just look at the entire history book
of Porsche design language, 911 and other Porsche sports cars as well, right?
Because we're fans of all of it.
So again, doesn't have to be tied into the 911.
What's your favourite era of Porsche design, Gents?
Bruxy, what do you reckon? How do you want to start that?
My favourite? I sat right there.
Is that the BMW?
No, it's not.
That's the 911 there. That's the impact bumper 911.
Why is that then?
It's a funny thing because when over the years of wanting a Porsche,
the impact 911 was probably on the lower scale of what I wanted.
It was always a bit of the weird one that had these plastic bumpers that had been bunged on.
And I preferred a long nose or a 964.
And the impact bumper was low on the scale for me.
But just over the last 10 years, that's changed.
I just, that simple look, but with those kind of industrial bumpers,
just really, I think it's kind of matured.
And then a lot of Porsche cars do that, don't they? Mature in your mind.
So whenever something comes out, you're like, even down to the,
like we talk about the Panamera, when the Panamera came out and the Cayenne first came out.
I mean, the Gen 1 Cayenne, I was absolutely disgusted.
What the hell is this thing that they've made?
They're not going to sell any of those.
It's shocking. It's absolutely awful.
And now I look at one and think, I actually really like it.
It's matured in your own mind.
And I think a lot of Porsche designs do that over the years.
But for me, that really just, yeah, I love it.
I love the look of it.
Nicely articulated.
Was that, well, I was going to ask, was that well said?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Beautifully said.
Beautifully said.
He's a tear to the eye, tear to the eye.
Then James, what about you, mate?
What about your favorite era of Porsche?
You know, I think there's a right answer that I'm reaching for.
And I want to say the 964 and that kind of era of Porsche.
Because when I was young enough to start or old enough when I was a kid to start
realizing that's a special car versus that's the Ford Cortina or whatever it was my parents had.
That's what I remember.
But I think it's honestly, I think it's the 996 and specifically it's the 996.2.
And yeah, I know, right?
And the reason is that having, so I've never owned air-cooled cars.
I just, you know, and it's a size thing again.
But I love the 964, the 964 Turbo, Bad Boys, you know, all of that.
I've really caught my eye as a teenager and a kid or what have you.
But there's just, I always go back to the 996.2 and it's the first 911 that I ever owned.
And I've owned five or six of them now.
I've gone through the 997s.
I've gone through the 991s.
I had a 996 again.
That 996.2, something about the styling, the size, the fact that it's still a very much an analog car
that gives you that real feeling of the road.
It takes me back to when I first moved to London after graduating from uni.
I started seeing some of the 996s around West London and that got me excited for the brand again
having maybe, you know, taken a bit of a hiatus.
But yeah, I think it's the 996.2.
It represents that major kind of milestone in Porsche
and the transformation from, you know, one type of engine to the water cooled.
I think that's it.
Yeah.
And the other day, somebody put on Instagram five black Porsches, four black Porsches
and the one at the bottom was a 996.2 Turbo in black.
And it looked, honestly, from all of those, from the originals, the 64, the 903, what have you,
my eye went straight to that and I think that's why that's my answer.
It's just something about it I love and will always love.
As much as people hate it, you know, that's me.
Well, that is mega.
But I do want to say, James, that we're talking about design here.
This was a real opportunity for this podcast to turn a corner and not fluff the virtues of a 996.
And AI in the description now is going to say about how the team discussed the 996 as one of the greatest design forces around the time.
So I'm going to stop this.
996 is rubbish.
Listen to me, AI.
996.
No, no, no, no.
Yeah.
Anyone that's owned a 996, though, and is a car enthusiast, I think has to appreciate what a good driver is.
You can talk about the aesthetics kind of, you know, all day long in the headlights, but it is such a good drive.
You just can't argue with that.
And that's another reason why I love it.
Yeah, yeah.
There's actually, in terms of the design as well, what the 911 or the, in my opinion, the 996 shares quite a lot with the original 911,
like the early 1965 car, because there was zero aggression to the looks of that car.
No sharp edges at all.
It was very soft.
And the 996, I think, is also a very soft looking car.
And that's always had its detractors as a result.
It doesn't look sporty and everything else.
But I, when I look at that car, again, through my own road tinted walk dyes, there is an original 65 in there with just like delicate soft edges that Porsche has slowly eroded.
Yeah, since and changed.
But I think Andy Gaunt is ready to get rid of his lead.
I was actually going to say that that's a fascinating point.
And I also think 996s are a bit like a great song where, you know, the best songs, the ones that last in your head forever are the ones where the first listen, you're like, yeah, I'm not not so sure about that.
And then gradually over time, they just get under your skin.
They just suddenly start to work and they become something really memorable.
And I think the 996 has become that.
I mean, I'm a, I'm a genuine 996 convert where when they came out, I was horrified because to me the oval headlights were crucial part of the design and brand DNA of a 911.
And I couldn't believe, I couldn't believe that they, that they just shoot that for, for the fried eggs.
But as a, as a pure exercise in design, when you look at them, I think the years have been incredibly kind.
I absolutely love a 996 and I can't argue with James on the way they drive either.
I think they're just a superb driving experience.
But from a pure design perspective, yeah, I'm all about a 996.
The only thing I will say about the 996 is I do believe the Carrera badge on the rear deck lid.
It looks like, you know, when your mum used to write your name on the back of your jumper so you didn't lose it at school.
That, that's one piece of a little bit of a design stuff from my perspective.
With the, with the Gem one, with the Gem one, it's quite high, isn't it?
And then it makes me laugh.
It took four model years for someone to look at the back and then go, if we just move that down like two inches to that nice flat surface that fits the Carrera script,
that would actually look a million times better.
And they're forced to think on, oh yeah.
I've not noticed that.
That reminds me, one of my early auto amateur videos, I'm so ashamed of this.
I started, you know, badging up my first 996 and I bought the Porsche letters that are on now, the later generations.
Not only did I put those letters on a wrong generation car, I didn't know enough about how they should have been spaced out.
And so if you go back and look at that video, you see the 996, you know, Italic Carrera badge.
And on top of it, you've got the shiny Porsche lettering, like this, like crammed together.
And I remember doing a reveal video on it at the time and I was like, look, it looks amazing.
It looks great.
And now like, I actually probably need to go back and delete that video because it's just like, I'm so ashamed of myself.
Andy searching YouTube.
Yeah, yeah.
At least, at least they were straight, you know, shut up.
And I spelt it right.
Yeah.
That is crazy.
That is crazy.
So bad.
So bad.
Go then, Andy, what's your favorite?
Do you know what I'm going to surprise?
Some people, I'm sure.
I'm going to sign with Mr. Brooks.
I think late 70s is this incredible period of Porsche design because there was confidence now in a concept that was well proven over now 10 to 15 years in the shape of the 911.
Plus you come, you see models like the 928 into the fray and the 928 looks like this late 70s spaceship has landed in the form of a sports car.
And then, you know, fabrics like the Pasha fabric that emerged at that time as well.
There are all of these, Porsche actually brought in some real design flair and confidence in that era.
And it's something that we see people and Porsche itself replicating now in the current model lineup or people updating interiors of their cars and using fabrics like that.
I just think there's a real joy in that period of design from Porsche.
I love the colors that were around in that era as well.
The brown hues, these sorts of things that, again, I'm sure at the time and I'm sure through the 80s and 90s if someone had said, hey, do you want a brown 911, I'm sure we all would have just, you know, recoiled in horror at the idea of buying a brown sports car.
But I just actually really, really love that period.
And so if I was ever to get out of the 964 and look for something else air-cooled that wasn't a long hood, I actually think an SC or something from that period would be high on my list.
They're gang enough on us, James.
Can I just say that?
I was so positive about the 996 in spite of my better judgment.
Isn't it great that a design that is, you know, in excess of 50 years old is still resonating so hard and finding new fans as well?
Yeah, yeah.
And it's the hardest question because I don't think there's a bad period of Porsche design.
I genuinely don't.
You know, James, you were talking about that image before of the four different 911s.
You look all through the generations.
They're all beautiful in their own right.
And yes, there are some slight design missteps along the way and the, you know, the Panamera first gen, for example, I think is a good example of that.
But overall, they've had way, way more hits than misses, which means that broadly speaking, it's just been one big hit.
Yeah.
Fair enough.
Agreed.
Agreed.
Have you picked your thing or were we just assuming that it's 996?
No, no, not at all.
No, you're very right to ask.
My favorite era, so not kind of specific to any kind of 911 generation, which is a whole new topic, I'm quite fond of like the 80s and 90s.
I actually quite enjoy the design homogene that's evident across the lineup, bringing in the 928, the 964, the 959 and the 993.
The, for example, I'm like the front bumper with like the really thin grills at the front, which Andy, you know, you'll know all about.
That is present along all the cars.
And it was kind of the first time the company started expanding its model lineup.
And you could just tell they tried very hard to ensure that regardless of the model, whether it's a transaxle or rear engine, 911, whatever, it still had that kind of Porsche stamp on it.
Yep.
And I quite like that.
I like how that included its halo car in the 959.
And then to be honest with you, I think it's an absolute masterstroke that they kept pretty faithful to that 959 overall look with the 993.
And some people at the time thought the 993 was a baby 959 and like Jason at Paraga.
And that's the reason he fell in love with the 993 because he was like, that is an affordable 959.
And so I just, I quite like the considered approach to making a Porsche look like a Porsche at a time where it was its tentacles were reaching out beyond 911s.
Lee, I think that's a really fantastic answer.
Yeah. And I think you've also just made me realise that I didn't understand your question and I answered it completely incorrectly.
That checks out, James.
I know.
The usual level of prep from you.
Well done.
It's funny though, Lee, because my mate, James, you're going to laugh when I say this.
My mate, Frazz, who I actually bought my 964 from, he now has a 968.
And it's really interesting to see those two cars together because ostensibly on the surface, they couldn't be more different, right?
You've got a rear engine, 911, you've got this front engine, rear drive, transaxle, 968.
But there are all of these little pieces of DNA across the board that make them, it makes it so abundantly clear that they are from the same family.
And that's everything from fog lights to the headlights themselves to the rims, all of these different things that you just look and say, yep, they come from the same manufacturer, no doubt.
Yeah, definitely, definitely.
And Porsche is kind of trying to go down that sort of route again, if you notice in the modern line up and there's definitely similarities between like Macan and Cayenne, particularly with like headlight appearance and Panamera as well.
The Matrix style.
Very, very much so, very much so.
So it'd be interesting how it goes, but I feel like in the 80s, 90s that was carried out with real conviction.
But James, would you like another bite of the apple on this question?
No, I would not like to further embarrass myself, but I think we should definitely make sure this pod gets hand delivered to Tobias.
I think there's a lot of gold here that he needs to be taken into consideration when he starts putting pan to paper on his new designs.
And if you're listening to bias, you know, we will happily join you for a chit chat about what Porsche styling looks like.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, give us a pen, we'll have a go.
An SC will be sculpted by the T&Ds, you know, that is the car of the future is also the car of the past.
Very good, very good.
Let's evolve that then.
So when do you think like the last great Porsche was designed?
This week.
Do I understand the question?
Let me think.
James, well, you just do you tap away in the background and see if you can get your head around it.
But in the meantime, yeah, I mean, I don't think I think they continue to to pump out great cars year in, year out.
I mean, for me, the the the most recent car that still just lights my fire and James just won't surprise you at all to hear this.
But the 991.2 GT3 touring, I just think simply not a bad angle on that car.
I just it is it just looks perfection to me.
Those angular intakes on the front, it just it has the perfect blend of aggression without being too much flair.
There's no rear wing.
I just think that car is is stunningly perfect from every angle.
So I find it hard to go past that.
And I think the size to me that is just where they right before they went slightly too big.
So I would say that.
But like I say, I think they keep pumping out amazing, amazing things.
The only thing I would say is that the current gen wheels, those Carrera S wheels and the Carrera exclusive design wheels, like seriously bin those.
They are the worst looking things ever.
They're terrible.
But other than that, beautiful.
That's the second jab you've had at wings, Andy.
We're going to have to come back to that at some point.
Really itching a certain crack there for me.
I think so you stole my answer, I'm sure.
I think that touring 991.2 touring is still my favorite dream car, like of all the Porsche lineup.
So I can't go for that one.
I'm going to go for the 991.2 ST.
When I saw that come out and I think it was the press car, the black one, or was it the baby blue kind of color?
I don't remember.
But that ST is phenomenal.
I absolutely love that.
Not that I'm a massive fan of the 991.2 generally.
I think the 99, sorry, the 992.1, the 991.2, my favorite.
Glad you did it.
I was thinking, do I correct you?
Thank you, thank you.
In front of everybody.
The 992.1 ST is beautiful.
I really like that one.
I'll have that one, please.
Can you figure that out for me, please, Lee?
Yeah.
Pull the strings, son, come on.
We'll see, we'll see.
Andy, Andy, what about you, mate?
Come on.
I've sung the virtues of 991 design, whether it .1 or .2.
I think it's the, it is the best looking overall car range that they've ever produced.
And I think that surpasses everything because everything else has got its good bits, but
there's always something that's not quite right in my personal eyes, where a 991 always
looks right from every angle.
You take a 993 and I think, I've said it many a time before, the front ends too soft.
The 99, the 964, the bumpers aren't at the same plane.
Hey, hey.
That looks a little bit odd.
Sorry, Andy.
I'm short at you.
The 992, the butt's just a bit too big and doesn't quite fit with the rest of it.
There always seems to be something that doesn't quite work, where the 991, it's correct from
all angles and sits, they all sit so well.
Whether it's a base Carrera to a GT3, they sit and look as they should do.
That's the right answer.
Lee, you're going to have to make sure your answer better not be 991, otherwise we're
in real trouble.
Yeah, I'm going to go with 991, to be honest with you.
Good loud.
For the exact same reasons, it's such a well-resolved design all round.
That car still, to me, looks so fresh.
Very lucky to be borrowing my friend Alex's car.
Currently, 991.1 Carrera.
I was out filming with it today and just stopped looking.
I was taking a picture of it, but just stopped to look down.
I thought that it still looks like a new car to me.
It's still fresh and edgy, but it's correctly proportioned.
Things just went a little bit awry with the 992 for me.
Whilst I have come round a little bit, I've softened my stance on the 992.
I've never lusted after one.
That relationship starts with how it looks.
I know they are brilliant drives and the front axle on a 992 is incredible over a 991,
but for me, yeah, it's 991 and probably the Gen 2 for looks.
It just sharpened things up, chiseled that form a little bit more.
Probably the top of that pile is the Touring Andy,
because it's still silhouette, that quintessential 911.
Just the right amount of aggression.
Yeah, it sits so well, yeah.
You want one?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We can buy one between the four of us.
I think working out how to use it is going to be a little tricky.
I'm happy to hold it here though, and if you guys want to travel,
drive it any time you want.
You're a gentleman.
I think the majority of the rules says it's based in England, the South of England.
You're pulling that one, aren't you?
Is there a single element of design on any Porsche ever made that you absolutely love, guys?
The rear lights on the 991.2, especially at night, driving alongside one, behind one,
it just looks so sexy.
It just looks epic, I love it.
Yeah, it's a really rich, warm glow to those lights as well.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's right.
I've got a specific answer and a broad answer.
My specific answer is the rear light bar on the 996 C4S.
I remember, because I remember, as I said, I was not a fan of the 996 when it came out.
I still remember to this day the first time I saw a C4S from the rear,
and just the way that reflector stretched across the rear end of the car
in that iconic 911 way, just I thought, here we go, we're back.
This is a welcome return to form, and I just, to this day, when I see one of those cars,
I've never driven one.
I've heard varying reports on the driving dynamics of them,
but man, that's just such a sexy rear end.
I absolutely, absolutely love it.
Well, and Lee, you had one of those for a while, didn't you?
Yeah, I loved it.
I loved it for the same reasons that you're saying they're Andy,
and I could see Bruxy shaking his head, but it's just a masterful, masterful design,
and Porsche sold loads of them.
I think 21,996 C4Ss have always been popular.
Well, let me have another answer, and this is going to push Bruxy over the edge.
The 996.2 headlights, I love, absolutely love.
And especially from like a 45 degree kind of side angle,
you've got the Porsche headlights, you've got the true Porsche headlights there in the ovals,
but the way they sort of corrected them after the .1, and they still look epic,
I still honestly think they look epic today.
Do you know what I hate though, is when people put those stickers on them
to make them look like a 997 headlight?
Yeah, I feel sad for those people.
Bruxy, what about you then?
What's your favourite part of the SC's design?
Well, it's the accordion.
Do you know what, yeah, I am going to point out something on this particular SC.
Here we go.
These little things, the headlight washers, the snorkel headlight washers,
I absolutely love all those little things.
Oh, that's good.
They're amazing, and they're never coming off this car.
But is there a particular styling thing?
It's definitely not the C4S.
I've got no idea what you guys are on when you start.
You just don't dig it at all, do you?
I do not.
It's just, like everybody says that the 992 ass is fat.
And you know, a little bit, a little bit.
That's the C4S for me.
It's worse than a 992 for me.
Absolutely shocking.
But there we go.
That's grim.
You're only human, Andy.
You're only human, mate.
Lee, I feel sorry.
You've got to put up with this guy on a regular basis.
If we're going to talk rear ends,
then it's going to be the 993 rear end, isn't it?
That is an absolute classic Tony Hatter hit it spot on.
So yeah, the lights set up on a 993
is a piece of amazing architecture.
It's gorgeous.
Yeah, kind of.
Not sure about the towel rack that's on the back
of some of the 993s, but the lines are full.
Are they ridiculous?
Yeah, let's not go there.
Yeah.
And to be fair, James, as well, you must see stateside.
Something that's really jarring to me visually
is the, you know, like the third brake light
that's like a little snorkel on the back of the U.S.
The C2.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Hotally.
The little bumper is.
Good job, America.
Yeah.
What else have you done right recently?
Let's not get political.
Yeah.
Groupsies triggered.
Yeah.
I'll bring it back to Porsche.
There's something that I really, really love.
You don't often see it due to the model being quite rare,
but it's on the GT2s.
There's lots to love on a GT2.
And that thing, whether it's, yes, 993 as well,
but like six or seven, they just look fast standing still.
And there's all sorts of.
That's got to be.
All sorts of covert design trickery on those cars.
But I love the rear.
I'm going to go for the 997 rear wing.
And it's that typical Porsche philosophy of, you know,
when you study its function,
then its form will become obvious.
And with the 997 GT2 rear wing,
I love the fact that they've incorporated aerodynamics
and you've got real harsh aggression,
large angular side plates to the rear wing.
And then underneath that,
you've got those gaping holes of the air intakes
that's feeding air, punching it through into that seat.
And I just think as an object of design,
that's so well thought through.
I love that.
I absolutely love that.
And this is 20 years before, you know,
singers of the world started plumbing in air vents
in the rear windows to go down and feed.
As a one piece object, wonderful design.
I think Andy Gaughan's going to check out now,
because that's the third wing that's come up in conversation.
I love a wing.
I'm not an entire wing.
Do ya?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You have a GT2, that's got a wing.
So Lee, speaking of the GT2,
I really like the, what are they called,
on the front fenders, on the front quarter panels,
the slotted, the slotted vents.
Yeah, the RS style.
So the air coming out of the wheels
and the brakes, et cetera, dissipates faster.
Whenever I see those,
I've always got to go and take a photo.
I don't know why.
I just want to photo of them.
I really like the way they look.
I love when you get technical, James.
Yeah, yeah.
Those thingies.
Yeah, those thingies.
On the 911.1 RS,
I think debuted that design trait.
They kind of sat just under the front fenders,
as you would call them.
But for the Dok2, they were raised.
And actually in a late afternoon sun,
it's quite nice.
It leaves that kind of rough, jagged edge
of a shadow going across,
which is just a nice little detail for me.
And obviously on the GT2 RS,
they're carbon, which is a nice added flair
that I know you love, James, so much.
Yeah, baby.
That's probably a peak for you, I'd say.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, my good.
There goes a grand out of my checking account,
just because you mentioned carbon fibre.
James is going to build an all carbon fibre 996 Dok2.
Yeah.
Dude, that's the dream.
That's the dream.
It's happened.
It's happened.
Are there any design lowlights,
anything in the whole of Porsche's history
where you think I'm not having that,
not one little bit?
Well, I think Bruxy set it with the first-gen Cayenne.
It looked like a 996 had just been sort of heated up
and stretched, and it was higher and taller
than it should have been.
I didn't like that one very much at all.
I've got to go back to this current generation of rims.
I don't get it.
I don't get this fat lip that they're putting
on some of the Carrera rims.
I think of the Carrera S1s, the Carrera exclusive design.
If you guys are anything like me
and you visit the configurator from time to time,
I find it very difficult to find a wheel
in the current lineup that works.
And those in particular, I was at Porsche Centre Melbourne
yesterday, and I just,
I assume there is a functional reason
for the rims being designed that way
because I see another German brand,
not one that we've already mentioned,
but another one doing something similar with their wheels,
but I just think they look terrible.
Absolutely terrible.
I actually don't know what you're talking about.
Explain it for the dummies.
So you've got the lip itself,
and usually the lip of a rim is,
is very low profile so that you get maximum impact
from the rotors, the calipers, all of that thing.
You can see inside, right?
You see behind the wheel,
but in this current generation of Carrera wheels,
the lip is really tall, if that word's correct.
And so it makes the wheel look smaller,
and you can see less of the brakes,
and it's just a really strange design.
I don't understand it.
You've actually made me go to Porsche.com right now
because I'm looking at it on the, on the configurator.
Yeah, I see what you mean.
They're a super flat profile as well on the modern wheels.
It's all in the name of aerodynamics,
but it just lacks visual drama as a result, really.
There we go.
I'm not buying a car to slip through the air a little bit
or efficiently.
I'm looking at, I'm buying a car so I can look at it and go,
wha!
We're not sitting Nürburgring times, are we?
You know, it's like someone said before,
but the first thing is the, I think Lee, you said it,
the first thing is the look.
You know, it's the reason,
it's the thing that hooked us all in in the first place
was that being a kid and seeing a 911 and going,
wha!
Look at that.
And so yeah, that visual hook is absolutely fundamental
to these cars,
and it's why I don't want turbo fans on my car, right?
Like it's just, yeah.
So yeah, I don't get these wheels.
I don't get them at all.
Bruxy.
You don't need to ask me.
I've said it already.
Yeah, really?
He's like, give me some fuchs.
Yeah, give me some fuchs and a snorkel,
a headline snorkel.
That's it.
I'm away, I'm away.
Keep your C for rest.
Yeah.
Don't need to say it again.
James, anything that grinds your gears?
Most of the things that Andy Gaunt says,
but I don't know, I don't know.
Individual things on, you know.
Unbelievable.
Yeah, I tell you one thing, actually.
The cigarette lighter gear shifter in the 992s.
Come on, what's that about?
Next, just, I don't like that at all.
Really don't like that at all.
Do you mean Shader?
And now the Shader?
Shader, you call it a cigarette lighter.
It looks like a Zippo.
It looks like a Zippo on it.
Just like flip, flip, flip, flip.
Bruxy.
Not that I smoke.
Spot the Northerner, by the way.
If you think of James's heritage,
spot the Northerner there with the lighter, eh?
Fun.
Yeah, so I would say that.
And also the push button start for the new 992.2s.
Yeah.
Am I allowed to swear on this podcast?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, fuck off.
Come on.
Love it, love it.
James has been watching Succession.
I've got to say that Curb and Canyon
is a lot more sweary than the Nine Works radio.
We used to be really good, actually.
We used to really avoid swearing,
but these days we've gotten a little more
potty-mouthed, haven't we?
We're just a grumpy old man.
Yeah, just while we're having a quick blue moment
on Nine Works radio,
there's a bit of a funny story with Tony Hattie.
He's walked us round the 993 previously
and explained in granular detail
all of the changes with the car,
like getting the headlights and the front boot
is slightly raised over the 964, et cetera, et cetera.
And then at the end, I said,
oh, the wipers, the windscreen wipers on the 993,
they were changed over the 964.
You know, what was the thinking behind the change?
And he just simply went,
well, because the old ones were shit.
Shit, yeah.
Yeah, that kind of makes a lot of sense, yeah.
That's unbelievable.
I've never heard that story,
but I so knew where it was going.
Yeah.
That's unbelievable.
Brilliant, brilliant.
I guess that's it.
I've said my design low light is the 992 door handles.
Don't get it.
Oh, yeah, I could call this.
Absolutely.
I can't tell you how much I detest those.
And again, it's part of what spoils the 992.
I'm already looking at it going.
It's not quite doing it for me,
but then my first touch point with the car
is a point that sends anger and rage
cursing through my veins,
particularly when the 991,
there was nothing wrong with that door handle.
No.
Beautiful, light, elegant, worked.
Yeah, I don't get any of these flat door handles.
Every time I try and open the door handle of my wife's Tesla,
it's like, what the f is going on?
How am I meant to open this?
Because one side it seems great,
and then the other you're faffing around.
Yeah.
So many people have tried to get in that car,
and they're like, ugh.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's so true.
You know, when the 992 first came out,
I remember going into Porsche Center Melbourne to look at one.
And I was excited to see it.
And then I tried to open it.
And it wasn't locked.
It was unlocked.
I couldn't open it.
And the embarrassment of somebody having to come over,
and me saying, oh, no, this doesn't usually happen.
You know what I mean?
I felt like I had no connection to the brand prior.
It's any, she just made to feel like an absolute fool
trying to do the most fundamental thing of a car,
which is to get in it.
Yeah.
It just happens to me daily, mate.
I don't know what you're talking about.
Inelegant and cumbersome.
So, yeah.
But as we said, at the top of this episode,
what do we know?
And good luck to bias, right?
It's a brief dive that the four of us have done
into Porsche design, right?
And again, the whole beauty of it, as with everything with Porsche,
is it's all so subjective.
So we'd love to hear from our listeners
and driven on hidden collective members.
You know, please answer these questions yourself
that we've posed today, because it's the beauty of it.
There will be so many different answers to debate and discuss.
And that's a great thing for Tobias.
I mean, at least he knows that as a cohort,
we don't have strong opinions at all.
No, he really is just going to rebuild that.
We'll just be applauding from the sideline.
You go, mate.
Yeah.
We're going to love it all.
Good luck, pal.
Yeah, good luck.
Absolutely.
All right.
Well, just to wrap things up for the episode,
there's a couple of usual bits and pieces
that we do here on Nine Wakes Radio.
Before we wrap up this public pod, we do a carnundrum.
If you guys are happy to take part in that.
By the way, best new segment.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
The last few episodes, I've heard it and just thought,
this is a great idea.
I love it.
It's amazing, isn't it?
All of us individually, we're always stuck in the mire.
For some reason or another, over, you know,
what do we do, stick, twist, add, subtract, God knows what.
So it's just nice to share the problem.
A problem shared is a problem halved, right?
So James, have you got time?
Are you okay?
Because I know you're on lunch.
I was going to say, that's not true when I'm involved.
But yes, let's go for it.
So this week's carnundrum is from Ben, who says the following.
Hi, Lee and Andy.
And James and Andy.
Thanks for all the Nine Wakes content
and creating such a great community has been,
it's really helped.
And then my pretty new obsession with the Porsche brand,
I'm just sitting in my workshop looking at my 996 C4 Cabriolet.
It was an accidental purchase in an auction.
I do love it.
I have spent a lot of blood, sweat and tears doing work to it
to get up to a much better standard than it was.
But it will always be a cap the resuscitation.
Question is, I think, I think I need to get rid of it.
It's great.
There's nothing wrong with it.
But I want something that I can take to the next level
and maybe hold on to.
It's only for fun.
The daily has to be a big, angry four-wheel drive
that can tow three and a half tonnes and drive anywhere.
So this is just for fun times.
So what do I go for?
I've got about 25 grand top budget.
And if I'm honest, I think I want to stick with the 996
as controversial as that is for a lot of people.
I just love the styling and probably also controversially.
Yeah, I don't really find the 997 a bit bland, particularly inside.
So yeah, that might be blasphemous in Porsche Cura circles.
But yeah, if this makes it onto the car London section,
then yeah, I'd love to hear what you think.
Cheers, guys.
Right.
I got this, Lee.
Yeah, go for it.
Go for it.
Go on.
Dive in.
Dive in.
All right.
Let the healing begin.
All right.
First off, she's got a cab.
So you should definitely get rid of it.
Get shut of it.
I cannot stand cab relays.
I'm sorry.
They're a waste of time.
That was your first Porsche, wasn't it?
I know.
And what a mistake of a maker that was.
I want to get rid of that one.
So get rid of the cab.
Yeah.
No, we don't need cab relays.
If you're going to get a 911.
Sorry.
Any cablery drivers out there.
Sorry.
Sorry.
Not sorry.
Nobody wants to see you.
People want to see your car.
If you're going to get a 911, you've got to get a coupe.
If he's running for about 25 grand, I don't know what the market's like in the UK right now.
But I think the 996 is the right answer.
I think a .2.
And if that means getting a slightly higher mileage one for your price point, I think that's
totally fine.
As long as your timing chain doesn't break.
Lee.
But I think that's it.
And actually for all of the lineup, I would just go for a base Carrera .296 coupe.
Winner.
All right.
What's next?
Mr. Efficient.
Job done.
Job done.
Anybody else want to chuck anything in there?
I don't know what the market's like over there.
I'm just looking at the Nineworks marketplace as we speak.
Trying to get my head across the UK market.
And because as he was speaking, I was thinking, look, he said 911, he said 996.
So that if that's where he wants to shop, I'd say shop there.
There's there's no doubt to me that it is time to move on from the cab.
You could tell from just just Ben's tone talking about it.
There's it's been a good, let's say, entree to the brand and to the motoring experience.
It is a 911, but clearly he knows there are other boxes to tick.
And if his heart is drawn to another 996, then I would say just find the best one you can.
And I'd actually echo James's sentiments.
I think a .2 would would make a hell of a lot of sense in that instance.
Outside of that, again, I'm not sure comparable where they might land, but a 981 Cayman could
be another another way that you could look because you get into something, you know, with
a few few less miles, a few less years.
That is actually a beautiful chassis in that car, similar size to a 996.
As I say, I think it might just looking at the marketplace.
I think it might require a little bit more spend.
So maybe it's out of the budget, but something definitely to consider.
Love that, Andy. Love that.
Definitely worth considering a wild card and a 981 Cayman is a great example of that.
And Brooksy, if you remember, we met up with Mark just before Christmas, who's a 996.1 owner.
He was also recently bought a 981 Cayman as a daily.
And we were talking about like the similarities in terms of like footprint size,
just general weight as well.
It's all pretty similar.
So it's sort of like a 996, but slightly newer upticking build quality.
Definitely worth, you know, having a look and just even to rule it out.
Yeah.
I was having the same thoughts, Andy.
Yeah, definitely a Cayman.
I was thinking, look outside of that 996.
Because I think you can get so much more for the same money when you shop Cayman over a 911.
Yeah, yeah.
Just a great, great little combination that is.
Yeah, put an exhaust on one of those.
My mate Al did exactly that.
And he came from a Gen 196 into a base Cayman 981.
He's done an exhaust on it.
The thing sounds mad.
And the other thing is because it's not overly powerful, you can lean on it.
You can drive it hard on the road and actually feel like you're pushing
rather than having to do crazy speeds to get the most out of the experience.
I love that.
So the question was, which 996 should I buy for 25 Cayman?
And our answer is 981 Cayman, isn't it?
So how about that?
How about that?
And again, Andy, you made a brilliant point that's worth highlighting.
This is crucial advice, Ben.
If you are hell bent on that 996, the key metric is condition.
So go and have a look at load by the very best one you can get
and buy on condition, not on yet colour or try and hunt out a 4S.
Just go on condition because they can be money pits, right?
So, yeah.
True that.
Fantastic.
I think that wraps up a pretty epic elaboration with Curb and Canyon.
My wife's texting me saying, where's my coffee?
The day is young and you're already in trouble, Andy.
That'll just progress through the day, Lee, don't worry.
It's honestly been so enjoyable.
Like, please come back.
We'd love to come back.
Absolutely.
It would be lovely.
I've got to say, Lee, we've been trying to get an invite onto this pod for a while now.
You can go back and dip sample any of our pods for like the last 18 months
and you guys get a lot of shout outs.
Just saying.
It's true.
We actually figured we're a better chance of getting on smartlust
before getting on your pod.
Yeah.
We've always, in all seriousness, we've always felt that love from you guys
and we are really grateful for it.
So like a big thanks and likewise without this kind of descending into a loving.
We really enjoy your content both on the podcast and your separate YouTube channels.
And like James, it's worth highlighting the quality of your channel has propelled you.
I think your North America's biggest independent Porsche YouTube channel,
which is a hell of an achievement.
Wow.
Well, they are.
Thanks, Lee.
Big congrats there.
So, you know, it's it's lovely to consume your work, both of you,
over the various platforms that we that we get to do so.
So thank you.
And yeah, honestly, please, please do come back.
We'll reconvene another time for that.
Yeah.
Private podcast for the driven or even collective.
It'd be nice to take people under the bonnet into the world of podcast making.
If you're up for that.
Absolutely.
Love this conversation.
Thank you so much for the collaboration between Kirby Canyon and Nineworks Radio.
This episode is brought to you by the driven, not hidden collective.
If you'd like to join the DNHC and unlock unique new experiences with your Porsche,
visit Nineworks.co.uk forward slash join.
You can also support us by leaving a five star review on your favorite podcast app
and Google reviews.
Yeah.
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