The FAT Ice Race Breakdown, And Can the Porsche 911 Turbo S Cabriolet Do It All?

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I'm Hannah Elliott.

And I'm Matt Miller.

This is Hot Pursuit.

Coming up on today's podcast,

we will discuss Porsche's new drop-top cabriolet, the 911 Turbo S.

Can it really have it all?

And I'm driving a new version of my old car.

That's all coming up.

Plus, we want to talk about Fat Ice Race, which I attended last weekend in Big Sky, Montana.

Maybe you've heard of it.

Maybe you... did you see the photos?

I've heard of Big Sky, Montana.

I've skied there on a number of occasions.

Oh, nice.

Nice.

And it is fantastic.

Plus, I have heard of the...

Well, it was just because of you.

You've mentioned Fat Ice a couple of times.

And I never know exactly what you're talking about.

It sounds like a beer, maybe, or a chewing tobacco flavor.

But apparently, it's like St. Moritz in Montana, right?

I don't know if I'd go that far.

But it's certainly inspired by Sam Moritz.

Yes.

So wait, what's the deal?

What is the deal with this ice racing?

Because I see it all the time.

And it's like, my buddy, Michael Haas, went to Switzerland to see it.

He loved it.

That would be the Zell and Zee.

Ted Guchu absolutely adores it.

But to me, it's like, why...

What's fun about driving on the ice?

I don't get it.

Not.

Okay.

So first of all, we'll walk it back a little.

There is a big history of ice racing, especially in Europe.

And there was initially the Porsche family held basically cars driving laps

around a frozen lake near Zell and Zee in Austria in the early 50s, 1952, 1953.

It's kind of like the ski driving Norwegian thing where the car pulls the skier.

So there's like a long history of that.

That sounds dangerous.

It's very dangerous.

But I think the appeal based on everyone who I spoke with who brought a car, the appeal

is just something different and fun.

This is not...

I have to quote Richard Petty, who I did see in the airport and who was at the race.

I asked him what he thought of it and he just goes, it's one big tailgate.

And I think he really nailed it.

This is not about going fast.

It's about having fun.

And that is...

It's one big tailgate on a frozen lake or in the mountains.

So this is a historic thing that has happened.

Now, fast forward to 2019.

Ferdy Porsche, the son of the chairman of Porsche Wolfgang Porsche.

Ferdy is his son, probably being groomed to be the successor of Porsche.

Ferdy decides that he wants to bring back this historic race and launch it with a new brand.

And make it something that's fun for young people, cool people.

In Montana.

Well, he held one in Aspen, which I think...

Tracks.

Yes, that tracks.

It wasn't considered a massive success.

I did talk to a lot of people who...

They had problems with permitting.

They had problems with logistics.

A lot of people who entered a car were sort of unhappy with how that...

I think it was a learning experience.

This...

And then they brought it to Big Sky.

This is the first time they've held it in Big Sky.

And I think it was considerably better.

He's brought to life this old brand called Fat International, which was an old racing brand.

He's bringing that back.

He's trying to revive it.

So he's putting it on this ice race and partnering with Sam Byrne.

Now, Sam Byrne is the developer who owns the Yellowstone Club.

He's also the man who purchased Willow Springs.

So you can see where this is going.

There's kind of this cohesion, this grouping together of brands and money and events.

It was fun.

It was...

The biggest challenge was they didn't have enough snow.

And that's something you can't control.

It was almost balmy, I have to say.

Day one of the racing, they had to cancel racing early to sort of preserve the track for day two

just because there wasn't enough snow.

And they were trucking in and manufacturing, you know, millions of gallons of snow.

So that's an issue.

And I think it was like the warmest...

It's been the warmest winter on record in Big Sky ever.

So that's a challenge.

But I do not think that dampened anybody's enthusiasm for being there.

For tailgating.

And like I said, people just went to have fun.

It's just fun.

You're not going fast, but it's all about tire management.

And it's all about understanding the weight and balance and the control of the car.

So I spoke with one guy who bought a Toyota Yaris in Mexico, drove it up himself, and

raced it on the ice in Montana, which was really cool.

I talked to another guy who had had hip surgery last summer.

And his big goal was drive a manual Porsche up to Big Sky and race it.

And that like got him back on his feet.

So there are lots of cool stories.

People had fun, lots of wild dressing.

I don't know if it was good dressing, but it was certainly wild dressing.

So it's essentially a party.

So the racing, I'm sure it's fun to drive on the ice and you have less traction, less grip.

So you can, you can drift the whole way around.

But the point really is the party more than the point is the party.

And the point, let's be honest, is content creation.

Although there were serious racers there.

For instance, Leah Block was there.

Miss Amelia was there.

Richard Petty.

Richard Petty was there.

Although he wasn't driving the key, the absolute legend.

And he could not have been more friendly and fun.

He gave me a laminated $43 bill signed by himself.

I was like, I don't approach anyone.

By the way, for those listeners who don't know, he's like a NASCAR legend.

The guy is the number one.

It has to be about 90 years old, right?

But he's 88.

Yeah.

He's, he's, I don't know all of his race credentials, all of his credentials,

but he's, he's like one NASCAR, the world championship, like six years in a row

or something crazy like that.

Yes.

He also has a very successful son, Kyle.

Of course, yeah.

Yeah.

So he's part of, he's part of a complete dynasty.

And you might know him if the guy with the cowboy hat and the sunglasses,

that's like his signature look.

Very cool.

Yeah.

But he was fun.

I think you would have had fun if you went Matt.

I actually, a really nice surprise was I stayed at Lone Mountain Ranch was,

which is an old historic ranch that was recently bought and out of bankruptcy

and has been brought back.

It's a semi-working ranch, stayed there.

It was very fun.

Cool.

So yeah.

Cool.

By the way, did you, so you fly into Bozeman, right?

Fly into, yeah, you fly into Bozeman and then you drive about an hour.

I love Bozeman.

It's like a college town.

Yeah.

But you do see people walking down the street with rifles.

Oh, for sure.

And then you drive what, like an hour to big sky?

You drive about an hour into the mountains, into big sky.

And you know, that's, it's, I actually think it might be nicer even in the summer.

It is a big ski area, but again, the snow is really, really terrible right now.

It's basically mud.

So I've been there in the summer and it's, it's really lovely.

Great for fly fishing too, I think.

Absolutely.

And they have, they do like surfing on a river as well.

It's very a river.

I love ski resorts in the summer, buddy of mine had a house in Stodd in Switzerland.

And I didn't rate with his family high enough to spend a lot of time there when ski season was on,

but in the summer I was always invited and I preferred it in the summer.

That's interesting that there's like a status or a class level about who gets invited to

the house.

These people.

All right, cool.

So that was the fat ice race.

Maybe I'll get a chance to go at some point.

We're still going to talk about the Turbo S Cabriolet that you drove 992.2.

And I'm going to talk a little bit about the Dodge Charger six pack high output,

two door scat pack that I drove in Blutacris.

That's the name of the color.

Blutacris.

That's cool.

When we come back, more hot pursuit after this break.

Let's switch gears for a minute and talk about what you're driving at.

This is the new version of your car.

Yeah.

Love.

You know, I'm kind of a Mopar guy.

Actually, I never had considered myself a Mopar man in the past, but I guess about five

or six years ago, I maybe seven years ago, I started getting into Sturgill Simpson.

Country singer turned like a ZZ Top dude.

I think Johnny Blue Skies is the name that he goes by now.

Did you hear his new record?

By the way, he dropped a new record on YouTube over the weekend.

Is it really good?

It is amazing.

Okay.

I think it's called Mutiny after midnight or something.

We see it.

And he put it out on YouTube and it's a young guy.

Sturgill.

I mean, I don't know who this is.

Sturgill Simpson.

I have to say he's one of my all time favorite artists.

Like I said, I started getting into him like 2018, 2019.

He was a country guy that did like psychedelic kind of outlaw country and he's done like

he did a Nirvana cover and his last record sounded a lot like ZZ Top to me, but this

one is like a kind of a protest record and he's done, he was at the Grateful Dead tribute.

He covered some of Jerry's stuff.

So anyway, he got me thinking about the Challenger a long time ago and then I kind of got obsessed

with the new version.

I love the new version of old muscle cars.

Like I love the-

Yes, you do.

So they don't bother you.

Right.

Like the S197, the 2010, 1112 Mustang, I like almost better than the 60s Mustangs.

I know it's-

Wow.

Do you get a lot of backlash for saying that?

Yes.

Okay.

And I mean, honestly, of course I would rather have like some GT500 from 1969, but those

are like 200 grand, right?

So I'd rather take the $50,000 one from 2012 and it's got better crash protection.

It's got much more horsepower.

You can still get it with a stick.

In fact, I think-

AC probably works.

Exactly.

So I love that marriage.

You know, I love the 997 of the 911 era, which is kind of a similar thing.

Long story short, I got a 2023 Dodge Challenger with a 6.4 liter Hemi because it was the last,

apparently the last one they were going to make.

They were phasing out that big inch V8 because of regulations and climate change and blah,

blah, blah, blah.

And so I thought, I'm going to grab this one since it's the last one.

So their new version of the Challenger, they're calling it the Charger, which is a little bit

confusing because the Charger-

Super confusing.

Was a different car.

It was the four door version of their Dodge Muscle car.

But this, now there's to make it even more confusing.

They make a two door and a four door charger and each one has like six different versions

and both are available in either electric, full electric or gas, but not with the Hemi.

They use instead an inline six with two turbo chargers.

It does put out 510 horsepower and a boatload of torque, like almost 600 foot-pounds of torque.

So it's a very powerful motor, but it makes the power in a really different way.

And as a result, they're two very different cars.

My 23 Challenger is a muscle car.

I like to cruise down Central Park Avenue, blasting black Sabbath.

Oh, that was you?

On purpose with an automatic transmission because it's, to me, it's that kind of car.

It's a big boat, whereas this new one, it's much more, I wouldn't say it's a sports car,

but it's much more of a GT.

It's much more precise handling.

The turbo obviously develops the power in a really different way, but I fell in love with it right away.

I'm shocked.

I know.

You are accepting a non-Hemi V6 automatic thing.

Well, to be fair, it's an inline six, which I will probably eternally have a problem with V6s.

I don't know why.

You're saying an inline six doesn't bother you like a V6?

I seem to like them better.

And I don't know if that's because Mercedes and BMW make great versions of that motor,

but this motor I really like, they sound horrible compared to V8s.

And that's my biggest complaint with this new Dodge Charger Scat Pack is the sound.

I'm not a 20-year-old kid that just bought his first 20-year-old.

You are a grown man.

Yeah.

So I don't need to be loud and annoying.

I do like loud cars, but I want them to sound good.

And the sound is not related to the speed.

We've gone over this so many times.

We've all seen the BMW guy going 20 miles an hour, but making a whole lot of noise.

Exactly.

The worst kind of glass-pack muffler sound that you can imagine.

This has that sound.

Oh.

But I got over it because, first of all, I love the way the car looks, and I think I might be in the minority,

or at least it's polarizing, let's say.

Okay.

Why is it polarizing just out of curiosity?

Well, a lot of people, my neighbor was like, he said, you know, from the rear, it kind of looks like a Datsun.

And I know he meant that as a dig.

Oh.

You're like, why is that about thing?

But I was like, I like Datsuns.

No, I think it's, you know, sometimes these muscle cars from the 60s had kind of an ugly or an awkward look.

Like the proportions were just not on somehow, especially in that, you know, sports cars up until that point,

I think, had really long hoods and the cabin was way in the back.

And then they had stubby rear ends.

And then those, a lot of these muscle cars, especially from Dodge, had like longer rear ends to the point where it looked off.

Yeah.

I get it.

I'm seeing what you're seeing.

Yeah.

But I like that kind of awkward ugliness, gawkiness.

And then the electric version has like a really strange front end where it's got this wing.

The gas version doesn't have that.

I love that of the electric car.

It's missing that here.

But the interior makes a lot of this car up for me.

It is an amazing place to sit.

It's really well designed.

Even without doing like leather and real wood everywhere, there's a lot of hard plastic because it's a Dodge.

But the way that they've designed it looks really cool.

It's got a texture that I've never really seen in a car before.

And the dash kind of comes off the front firewall and they put lights behind it.

And not in a cheesy way, but in a great, in a comforting way.

And also the stereo is amazing.

That's quite a high compliment.

Super high quality audio.

They used to do a Harman Kardon, which was the $2,000 option.

Now it's an Alpine, which is a $2,000 option.

Probably different brands by the same company.

But I got in on Saturday, I had to go to the drug store.

So I put on one of my favorite leather jackets and driving gloves after having bathed my children.

I crank up the Channel 309 on Sirius XM, which is like a jam band channel.

And they're playing some, I don't know, disco biscuits thing.

And it's just got dark and I'm doing 20 miles an hour to 60 mile an hour pulls from stoplight to stoplight down Central Park Avenue.

And I felt like I was in American graffiti.

It was just a really cool feeling.

You're living life.

Absolutely.

And loving this car.

You know, I have to say, I remember really liking the interior in the Daytona that I drove.

I don't know if it's the same exact as the one you had, but I thought it was really good.

And what's the price of the car that you drove?

That's the other thing.

Because it seems like a lot of car for the money.

Exactly.

And you know, we drive such expensive cars all the time.

Yes, we do.

And I always say like, yes, I loved this car, but it was a $200,000 vehicle or 300 or, you know,

the Aston Martin vanquish I drove was a $600,000 vehicle.

Like just it's insane.

And obviously, for the most part, our listeners aren't going to be able to afford these vehicles.

So when I drive a car that is affordable, that I could actually imagine myself paying for and my wife not killing me,

I think it adds a couple points to the hotness scale.

Totally.

So what is this at like 60?

The one that I drove, the base price was 55.

Wow.

Well, plus the destination charge was just 2,000.

I don't see how they separate that from the price because you're not getting one without the destination charge.

Okay, the base price was 57 and all in it was 68 because they added the stereo.

They added 20 by 11 inch wheels and they added something called the black top package, which I wouldn't probably add.

Okay.

As well as like a $5,000 package of like everything you want.

What color was the car?

Blue to Chris.

Oh yeah.

How could I forget?

Blue to Chris.

Is that a factory color?

It's a bright blue factory color.

It's like $700 or $800.

Okay.

I personally would have taken a darker blue.

They have one called after dark that I like a lot.

Midnight blue.

If you're rowdy or you can get peel out, which is nice.

Orange.

I see it.

Like an orange peel.

That's like more of a classic color.

I can see that.

They have red eye.

They have destroyer gray.

Green machine.

Yeah.

Triple nickel.

They have some.

I mean Dodge always has gray.

I love that destroyer gray.

Yeah.

I like it.

I thought you know what?

It's cool.

For basically $68,000 you're getting a bad ass full of our cruiser.

Now the one disappointment is you mentioned it automatic transmission only.

And it's a good one.

It's like the 8 HP, you know, the ZF transmission, but why wouldn't they make this in a stick

with three pedals?

Because like I said, it's less of a boat and it's more of a GT.

You want to row your own gears.

I don't, I don't, I honestly don't get it.

And I'm not even, this is not really my wheelhouse, but no pun intended.

I don't, I don't understand why they would drop the Hemi.

And I'm kind of surprised you're not more upset about that.

I mean, I have to imagine it's for emissions.

And so there's right.

So there's two things on the one hand.

I'm not upset about it because I'm not the last one.

Yeah.

So I don't care if they never make one again.

I have one.

Gosh.

I mean that, but that just seems so even I know that is the core of the identity and

soul of these cars.

Yes.

Right.

And of course they're going to bring it back.

And they're already bringing it back for, I think there already are Ram trucks with

the 5.7 liter Hemi and they will, I think they still make the Jeep Wrangler Rubicon

392 that has the 6.4 liter that I have.

And I imagine they'll bring it back to Dodge somehow, although they won't fit it.

They won't be able to fit it in this vehicle.

Okay.

Because the proportions of this vehicle, it wasn't designed for it.

It's not only about the height, but yeah, you lose that.

You know what the thing about the Hemi is not just the bigger displacement, but it's

a pushrod motor.

So it's got that mechanical, I don't want to say agricultural because that sounds like

a disc, but it's a machine that you're operating.

Yeah, I understand.

I understand.

Whereas, and it sounds great, whereas this, it feels more European, more sophisticated,

more refined, you know, which a lot of people will like and I didn't dislike.

Yeah.

Well, I was just going to say, you know, you are a man of many, you're like an onion.

You have many layers yourself because yes, you are sort of a Mopar guy, but also let's

not forget, you did live in Europe.

You can speak German.

You are going skiing and all these lovely chelets.

Like you also can appreciate the European element.

Of course I have, I think I have a broad appreciation for automotive technology.

So yeah, I love trucks and I also enjoy little sports cars.

You know, I like a big limousine and I don't hate like soccer mom SUVs.

Well, I'm really happy that you got to drive this.

I mean, was this the type of car that you kind of didn't want to give back at the end?

I definitely did not want to give it back.

And I was, when I talked to the, to my buddy Eric who runs the press fleet, he called me

up and I was kind of hoping he would say, don't worry about, you keep it for a couple more

days, but he actually wanted it back a day early.

And you know why he wanted it back a day early?

Who needed it?

Because he did.

He was like, you know, I'm going to go to the garage and I need to get a way car and

I would prefer it to be that.

Yeah.

Well, this is a good transition because next we can talk about this turbo s Porsche I drove,

which also has a new configuration, let's say in the, in the engine department.

And I knew higher price as well.

And I don't necessarily think it was a upgrade.

Let's put it that way.

So all right, we'll talk about the Porsche 911 that Hannah's driving next.

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We're back in.

Let's switch gears and talk about what I was driving this past week.

Yeah, we'll switch gears again.

By the way, last time we did it with an automatic transmission and I bet you were going to do

it with an auto box this time too.

Yeah.

Wait, am I supposed to know what you're referring to?

No, because there's no manual for the 911 either.

Well, no, that's very true.

That's very true.

Although that wasn't the source of my...

I don't even want...

I don't...

That wasn't the source of my bone to pick.

I'll put it that way.

Wait, give us the headline figures first.

So this is the top of the line.

This is the Porsche 911 Turbo S Cabriolet.

This is the 2026 model.

It's the 992.2.

It's the king of the hill if you want a drop top convertible Porsche.

And it's the biggest and heaviest one that they've ever made.

I'm going to bet.

Yes.

So the price will just get this out of the way.

The price starts at $284,300.

The one I drove came in at about $305,000.

I just want to say, perhaps this review was taken in a negative light.

The car itself, of course, drives incredibly.

It's a Turbo S.

This is, you know, when you are describing your ideal Swiss Army knife of a car,

you're not going to beat the Turbo S.

This column that I wrote is not a direct critique of the Turbo S line.

It's simply making the point that I do not believe that putting a hybrid powertrain into it improves the car at all.

So what's the motor?

So it is a newly developed 3.6-liter boxer engine on an 8-speed dual clutch with an integrated electric motor that makes it a hybrid.

And the hybrid powertrain, they call it an E-turbo.

It combines two electric exhaust turbochargers, a high-voltage battery, and other electronics.

So basically the E-turbo portion, and it's difficult to read through their marketing material about what it's actually doing.

My understanding is that basically the E-turbo is attached to the turbos to reduce turbo lag.

And they basically shorten the time the turbo needs to spool up before it boosts pressure to the engine.

So, okay, yes, it does add like a little bit over 60 horsepower to the engine.

And yes, it makes it, it gets it like two miles per gallon more efficiency in driving.

But they could have done that on the engine without adding the hybrid.

And the thing is, you and I, Matt, talk a lot about hybrids that we really like.

I'm not against hybrids.

I actually think it makes a lot of sense.

There are a lot of great hybrids.

Ferrari makes some great hybrids that I'm totally behind.

I just don't think we need it in the Turbo S and put it in an SUV, put it in something that is created to be a hybrid.

But the Turbo S, when it came out 50 years ago this year in the U.S.,

the whole point of it was that it's a lightweight car from the track that you could drive on the street with long, tall gears.

That's not what this is.

And so, call me a purist, but it just feels like why?

We don't need it.

Put it somewhere else.

That's my big take.

It's just adding complication, right?

It adds cost and complication.

I'm sure I've told you before about the first time I met Wolfgang Porsche in Geneva.

I was at the Geneva Auto Show.

It was also probably 2018 or so.

And I guess maybe I had sort of shaken hands with him before, but I hadn't ever interviewed him.

So I got a chance to interview him and then I asked him if he could have any 911 what it would be.

And I thought he was going to say something really cool, like the original ST or maybe weird like a Speedster.

And he said, whatever the new Turbo S Cabriolet is, that's the one I would want.

Wow.

And I said, I didn't say I'm disappointed in you, but I said, wow, with the incredible history that you have,

I would have thought that you would choose because you could have anything.

Sure, of course.

You know, like an RS, you know, and he said, no, because the Turbo S Cabriolet, like the way we make it is we make it as good as we possibly can.

We make the very best.

That's what we do for the very best one.

And I get that.

That's what Turbo means at Porsche.

It's a marketing term to describe the top, the very best.

But the thing is, so I know, and they did this with a GTS too, where they put, there's like an electric motor and the transmission somehow.

And there's one of the Turbos.

Yes.

And it's kind of like a cell phone where it's gotten to the point where even if I, someone explains to me how it works over a couple of years, I still don't really, really get it.

Yeah.

And here's the other thing.

You actually, at this point, while we're on the topic of Turbo S, you can't buy a Turbo S now.

That's not a hybrid, which is too bad.

It's too bad.

And maybe again, maybe I'm a little bit nostalgic, but these, the Turbo Turbo was like the most superior performance to pack a punch in a combustion engine.

Just like you said, Wolfgang nailed it.

And like I said in my column, if a car could solve all your problems, this would be the one.

Well, unless your problem is complexity, right?

Because if you want to work on it yourself, obviously forget about it.

Like that you could have forgotten about a decade ago.

But the good news, Hannah, for you is, and I'll tell you what you always tell me is, you can still buy a Turbo S that's not a hybrid.

Sure.

Just not brand new off the factory floor.

Yeah.

And by the way, you can spend far less money.

You're totally right.

In fact, I actually looked up the values over the last year of the 992.1, which is a non-hybrid, same thing, cab.

And they're up more than 10% year over year.

And if you look at the comments and you look at the Reddit threads and you look at the Facebook threads exactly to your point, Matt, everybody's saying they're trying to buy it, trying to buy the 992.1, the last.

Kind of like how you bought the last Hemi on your Dodge.

That's what's happening here.

And to me, that indicates Porsche is moving away from the core buyer who understands what they meet, what Porsche meant.

It meant everything.

Well, or maybe they're trying to engineer that kind of scarcity.

Like if you want the last non-hybrid Turbo S, you have to get a 991.1.

And if you want the last like a torsion bar turbo, you're going to have to get a 930 and so on and so on.

Okay.

So they're backing us into it, basically.

I mean, I don't know if that's what they're doing.

But to me, I'll tell you the one thing I don't love about any turbo since the 993 is the big air intakes on the rear wheel wells.

You don't like those.

I don't really like them at all because it's just.

I think they're awesome.

I love the elegance of a 911.

Well, this is your European side coming out.

It doesn't have all of that crazy arrow.

It doesn't have a big, stupid tail.

It doesn't have, for the most part, you know, it doesn't have all of these inlets, you know.

And if you want a turbo without that stuff, just a smooth, continual turbo, you have to get a 993.

Love, love it.

But also, I'm not angered by this.

I'm not angered by the, like, plastic, you know, venting along the front.

I love the air vents over the rear wheels.

I think it's cool.

It does look a little aftermarket to me, like, but I don't know.

I'm not, I like the pizzazz.

I like the personality.

None of that bothers me.

And, you know, part of that is what makes the 911 such a profitable car for Porsche.

I actually, Michael Dean, our friend in Bloomberg Intelligence, gave me the data on it.

The true market value of a 911 today in the U.S., true market value means including all fees and taxes and destination,

the average across everything, is $209,000.

In 2020, that was, what's this year, 2026, six years ago, that the true market value was $145,000.

So what, the average selling price, he's saying, for across the 911?

The cars have gotten a lot more expensive.

And I think a big part of that is because of all the extras and all the packages and all the exclusive manufacturer colors and all of that.

And I'm not against those things.

That's how they're building in the margins.

It's my only gripe is I just don't think it needs a hybrid.

This is, like, already a perfect car.

Why would you make it heavier?

You know, what's interesting is he's calculating that at the point of sale, like the first buyer from the dealership.

Right.

And I wonder if that includes ADMs, additional dealer markup.

And also, it would be interesting to look at the price for the second or third buyer within the first six months.

Because this has to be, the 911 has to be the most flipped car there is.

And I find myself, when I scroll through, bring a trailer wondering, and I'm glad I got your take with the review, and I recommend people check it out.

I find myself wondering if new Porsches, especially at the high end, GT3s and turbos, are no fun at all to drive.

Because I see so many that have 60 miles or 300 miles or 600 miles for sale again and again and again.

So that means somebody specced a $300,000 car, waited for it for a year or whatever, finally got it, drove it around the block and then decided to put it up for sale.

It's a crying shame.

And it's not that one person did that or 10 people did that, but it's hundreds of people doing that.

And I mean hundreds.

Any given week, you can look at Bring a Trailer and there are brand new, just opened GT3s for sale by owner.

I think that's dangerous.

Does that say something about what they're like to drive?

No, it doesn't.

The $10 million net worth drives a GT3 Touring.

Does she say, okay, I drove it for 450 miles and it was okay, but I don't love it that much, so I'm going to sell it on BAT.

So the logical explanation for what you're describing is yes.

Oh, this car doesn't have very many miles on it.

It must not be great to drive.

And let's be honest, we all know old cars from history.

I'm thinking of the Aston Martin Lagonda, which is terrible.

Like you see these old cars and they have low miles and you think, oh, it's a really special car, but actually like it wasn't great to drive.

That's why no one drove it.

But I don't think that applies here.

I think what we're seeing here with Porsche is the way that the brand has marketed and developed a consumer base.

It's a consumer base of investors and speculators.

It says nothing about the cars and everything about where Porsche is trying to position these brands.

Enthusiasts have been priced out.

Well, there still must be wealthy.

Look, I get low mileage car on, you know, if it's a GTO, you know, there's only whatever, 36 of them.

Or if it's an Aventador, you know, or a Countach, there were only a couple thousand.

We're talking about 9-11s.

There are a ton of them.

There are a ton.

And even like an ST, there's 2,000 of them.

Well, for sure, these aren't rare cars.

And that goes back to the history of Porsche.

Back in the day, Porsches were like track cars that somebody would own one of them, own the car their whole life, save up for years to be able to afford it, treat it like a prized jewel, but drive it and use it.

And the great thing about Porsches were all of the parts and components were interchangeable and you could find them easily and they weren't that expensive.

That was the appeal and the beauty.

And that package attracted the core true customer of Porsche people up until about, you know, five to ten years ago.

And those guys, those guys do not go to fat international ice race events where tickets cost hundreds of dollars and thousands of dollars for the VIP section.

Those guys go to local swap meets and lip meets in hotel convention centers and they're on the, you know, Facebook.

No one gets on Facebook anymore if you're under the age of 50.

But those are the people who were the core buyers of Porsches really hunting because they owned one that they worked on themselves.

That was the only thing that Porsche was for many years.

And I know you remember back in the day, like if you saw someone driving a Porsche, it might be a dentist, maybe.

It was definitely an old white guy and it was definitely, he definitely had like one, one, maybe two that he drove all the time and that was his baby.

That is not what we're seeing now.

It's a bummer.

And I also wonder from a business perspective, why does Porsche allow so much flipping and so much markup?

Like if there are buyers out there's, if you want to buy an ST, you're going to pay 600 I'm guessing for it.

I know it's crazy.

And it's an amazing vehicle.

I'm sure it's as awesome to drive as it is to read about.

But why doesn't Porsche just charge that MSRP?

Like why?

Well, if you ask them, they say it's up to the dealers.

They, you know, like I've asked them because I leave money on the table.

It was my favorite car I drove when I drove it two years ago, two or three years ago, whenever it came out 2023, maybe at the end.

That was my favorite car I drove that it was so, it's so good.

But if you ask Porsche, well, what about like when I go to DTLA, the Porsche dealership in downtown LA and they're saying like they have an allocation for twice MSRP.

Like Porsche just says, well, that's the dealer's decision.

Right.

So they like pass the buck.

I can understand that you say it's the dealer's decision when you have 20% margins.

When you're the most profitable car maker in the world, then you leave it to the dealer.

You don't care if you leave money on the table.

When your stock has lost lost 50% of its value since the IPO and your margins are plummeting.

Why are you leaving that to the dealer?

It, it hurts.

It really hurts because oh, how the mighty have fallen in a way.

Like, and I, it's not about the product.

I think, I still think they're exceptional cars and you may think I just like Porsche.

I, you know, I like the cars.

They're great product, but there's a lot of other stuff that's happening, you know, that is also affecting things.

And I'm not sure back to the cab.

I'm not sure the hybrid is the best thing for it.

It was still a fun car to drive.

That does it for this week's show.

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I'm Matt Miller and I'm Hannah Elliott.

We'll be back in your podcast speed again next week.

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The FAT Ice Race Breakdown, And Can the Porsche 911 Turbo S Cabriolet Do It All?

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tire management

weight and balance

Toyota Yaris

manual transmission

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Dodge Challenger

Shelby GT500

6.4 liter HEMI

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inline six

glass-pack muffler

Harman Kardon

Alpine

Aston Martin Vanquish

Jeep Wrangler

pushrod motor

horsepower

hybrid

Ferrari

true market value

Aston Martin Lagonda

Lamborghini Countach

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