BOP means race officials tweak cars so they don’t all end up with the same advantage. They might add weight or limit power so different cars can compete more evenly.
A city course is a race track made out of regular city streets. It usually has lots of tight turns and slower speeds, so it’s harder to carry momentum like you would on a normal race circuit.
“Emsa” is a reference to the endurance racing series they’re talking about. They’re saying that, over time, it can seem like some brands get treated more favorably than others.
The Ford GT is a special Ford supercar that also raced in endurance events. They’re using it as an example of how race rules can affect which brands end up winning.
A “catch 22” means you’re stuck because every option has a downside. The speaker is saying teams need to race the whole season to win the championship, but that costs a lot of money.
That “1.7 mile” number is how long one lap is. Shorter tracks usually mean you run into other cars more often, which changes how hard it is to pass and stay in control.
“St. Pete” is short for St. Petersburg, Florida. It’s a place that hosts racing events, so the speaker is talking about whether that city should have more dates on the schedule.
A road race is a race on a track that’s more like normal roads than a simple oval. Cars have to turn and slow down a lot more, so tires and handling are a big deal.
Term
MSA approving
MSA approval is basically permission from the racing authority. They check that the track is safe and meets rules, so a certain type of race car is allowed to compete there.
IndyCar is a major U.S. open-wheel racing series. The cars are built for fast tracks, so if IndyCar can race there, the track must be up to the job.
Term
National Group C cars
Group C was a sports-prototype racing category used in endurance racing, with cars built around efficiency and performance rules. Mentioning “National Group C cars” implies a specific class of prototype-style race cars that were run at the venue.
Place
Damba, the fairgrounds
This is a fairgrounds location the host is referencing as a past racing venue. They’re using it to show that different kinds of race cars have been run there before.
Formula 1 is the top global open-wheel racing series. It’s used here as an example of the kind of event that proves a track can be made to work.
Concept
city bidding for it
“City bidding” means the city tries to win the right to host the race. They have to organize permits, logistics, and costs so the event can actually be scheduled and run.
Miami is mentioned as a possible city-race location. Racing on city streets is different from normal tracks because the course is tighter and the surface can be less predictable.
Car
Porsche 963
The Porsche 963 is a Porsche race car built for major endurance races. It’s the kind of car that competes in the top prototype classes and has to follow race rules like BOP to keep competition close.
GTP is the top prototype class used in IMSA endurance racing (Grand Touring Prototype). These cars are purpose-built race prototypes, and their competitiveness can change depending on track length and race format.
They’re talking about the information teams collect from the car during testing and races. That data helps them figure out what the car is doing and how to adjust for the next event.
A “setup” is how a race car is adjusted for a specific track. It can include suspension and tire settings, and it can make the car handle better or worse.
The Ford Mustang is a sporty car made by Ford. It’s popular in the U.S. and comes in different versions, including coupe and convertible. In the podcast, it sounds like someone is driving or showing a specific Mustang to compare how it feels.
Concept
scrambling
“Scrambling” here means they’re rushing to fix the car because it’s not working well on that track. They try changes quickly to see if the car gets better.
A “factory team” is the official racing team supported by the car maker. They can share some information, but not everything, so customer teams still have to figure out parts of the setup themselves.
“P eight” refers to position eight on the grid or in the running order (P = position). The host’s point is that starting from P8 makes it extremely hard to reach P1 in a short race unless there’s a major incident.
A “fender clip” is a front body panel section that gets replaced after damage. If another car hits your front corner, the team may have to replace that part, which can end your race or put you way behind.
GTD is the name of a racing category. Cars in that category race together, and when you’re lapping them you can get caught in traffic—sometimes leading to contact and damage.
The Nürburgring is a legendary race track in Germany. It’s known for being really tough, and in long races a crash or mechanical problem can ruin your whole day fast.
They’re talking about a 24-hour endurance race and rumors about who might compete. It’s the kind of event where strategy and staying out of trouble matter a lot.
Red Bull is a company that sponsors and runs a Formula 1 racing team. When they talk about “the brand,” they mean how the team’s success and driver image reflect on Red Bull.
Concept
consolation
Here, “consolation” means something that helps make up for not getting the main result. Like a backup win or benefit when the car isn’t performing at its best.
Nürburgring is a famous race track in Germany. It’s known for being really challenging, so drivers and car companies use it to prove how fast and capable a car is.
Le Mans is a legendary endurance race in France. Cars race for a full day, so staying reliable and managing strategy is just as important as being fast.
A bottleneck is where the track effectively gets narrower or more crowded. When lots of cars arrive at once, it’s harder to avoid collisions.
Term
trigger happy
“Trigger happy” here means people are being too quick to act—like they’re making aggressive moves without waiting. In racing, that can lead to mistakes when cars are close together.
Term
escape
An escape area is extra space near the track that helps a car slow down safely if it misses the turn. It’s basically a safety buffer for drivers.
A hairpin is a super tight corner that you usually have to slow down a lot for. In a race, it’s harder because other cars are braking and turning at the same time.
Qualifying is when drivers go for their best single lap to set up where they’ll start the race. It’s usually easier to drive fast when the track is less crowded than during the race.
This is a Porsche 911 “Carrera S” version. It’s one of the more performance-oriented 911 trims. The hosts are pointing out that even with high mileage, the market can price these cars extremely high.
“Air-cooled” means the engine is cooled mainly by air flowing over it, not by coolant in a radiator. Some older Porsche models are famous for this design, and that reputation affects how people value them.
This means people are buying a car now because they think it’ll be worth more in the future. The hosts are saying that can inflate prices even if the car isn’t old enough to be considered a true classic yet.
“Classic status” is when a car becomes widely seen as an important, collectible model. The hosts are saying the market is treating some cars like classics even though they’re not there yet.
A manual transmission is the kind of car where you choose gears yourself using a clutch and a shifter. The hosts are saying that people who specifically want manuals may end up paying more or finding fewer cars.
A “GT car” usually means a more performance-focused version of a model line, often with track-oriented tuning. The hosts are comparing those expensive versions to cheaper 911s that still feel special.
A “sweet spot” means the best deal or the best balance. The hosts are using it to point to the 911 version that gives buyers the most satisfaction without the highest GT prices.
The halo effect is when one popular, expensive thing makes other similar things seem more valuable. The hosts are saying expensive Porsche models can pull up prices for other 911s too.
FOMO means “fear of missing out.” In this context, it’s when people feel like they have to buy a car quickly because it might get more expensive or harder to find later.
“Sports exhaust” usually means an upgraded exhaust that makes the car sound more exciting than the base exhaust. Here, the host is noting some cars don’t have that upgrade.
PDK is Porsche’s dual-clutch automatic transmission. Instead of a traditional automatic, it shifts very quickly and feels more like a performance gearbox.
Concept
quarterly rollouts
The host is talking about Porsche changing prices on a regular schedule. When new-car prices go up, people often turn to used cars instead, which can raise used prices too.
This is talking about a Porsche 911 Turbo from the 996 generation. The host is discussing what they cost used and a known reliability concern that can affect them.
The IMS bearing is a small internal engine part in some Porsche 911s. If it fails, it can become an expensive repair, so people watch for it when buying used.
Bore scoring means the inside walls of the engine cylinders get scratched or worn. It can hurt engine health, and the host is saying it’s a known issue on some Porsche 911 S engines.
Cylinder banks are just groupings of cylinders inside the engine. The host is saying the problem shows up more on specific groups (bank four and six) because those cylinders run hotter and may not get enough oil.
“Engine out” means the mechanic has to take the engine out of the car to fix something. It’s usually a bigger, more expensive job than repairs you can do without removing the engine.
Hydraulic steering uses fluid pressure to help you turn the wheel. Some drivers prefer the feel because it can feel more “connected” than electric assist.
“Nostalgia factor” means people may prefer a car because it reminds them of a time in their life or because they associate it with good experiences. That can matter even if newer cars are objectively better in some ways.
Term
AC
AC means the car’s air-conditioning. They’re saying some people want the newer cars because they’re more comfortable day-to-day, with features like AC and heat.
“Bone stock” means the car is basically exactly as it came from the factory, with no meaningful upgrades. The speaker is using it to set a baseline before talking about making more power.
“Sleeves” are like replacement inner walls for the engine’s cylinders. Mechanics do it to fix wear or to help the engine handle more power when building it up.
“Daily” just means the car would be your everyday driver, not something you only take out occasionally. If it’s a daily, you usually care more about practical costs and convenience.
The cylinder walls are inside the engine where the pistons move. If they need work, it usually means a big, expensive engine repair rather than a normal service.
Here, “motor” means the engine. The point is whether it’s cheaper overall to buy a more expensive car now or buy a cheaper one and then pay for engine work later.
“Analog” means the car feels more old-school and mechanical, with less reliance on computers. The speaker is saying they like that kind of feel, so it changes how they judge the car.
A “future classic” is a car people think will become collectible and valuable later. The host is basically saying some modern cars will be appreciated more in the future.
Oil analysis means sending used engine oil to a lab to check what’s happening inside the engine. It can help you spot early warning signs before a problem gets expensive.
Blackstone Laboratories is a company that tests the oil from your car. They look for signs of wear so you can make smarter decisions about maintenance.
Term
bass boat glitter paint in my oil
That phrase is a colorful way of saying the oil has lots of tiny metal particles in it. If you see that kind of wear debris, it usually means the engine needs attention.
Term
nickel cell lining
This sounds like a type of engine repair where the inside of the cylinder gets a special lining. The host is saying they’d do it only if the oil results suggest the engine is wearing out.
Term
driver air
“Driver air” sounds like a joking way to blame the driver—meaning the way someone drives could contribute to problems. The host is arguing about whether failures come from the car being built wrong or from driving habits.
Term
assembly air
“Assembly air” is a joking phrase meaning the problem might come from how the car was built. The host is pushing back on the idea that it’s mainly the driver’s fault.
When someone says the “911 market is on fire,” they mean Porsche 911 prices and demand are going up fast. The host is basically warning that waiting could make it harder or more expensive to buy.
Term
NA
NA means the engine doesn’t use a turbo or supercharger. The host is saying these engines are more about revving and using the gears to get the most out of them.
This refers to a Porsche 911 from the 997 generation, specifically the Carrera S (C2S). The host says it can have some engine-related quirks and a known issue involving the IMS that people often address to reduce risk.
Preventative maintenance means fixing or checking common problem areas before they break. The host is saying that doing the IMS-related work ahead of time is part of that approach.
Belts can wear out just from time, heat, and vibration—even if you don’t drive much. That’s why people replace them on a schedule, not only based on miles.
A serviceable item is something you can check and fix (or replace) as maintenance. The idea is to stay ahead of problems instead of reacting after it breaks.
“Grenade” here means it can fail suddenly and badly, not slowly. The scary part is that you might not get much warning before it’s over.
Term
shimmer
“Shimmer” sounds like a small early clue that something is going wrong. The host is saying only a tiny fraction of people notice it before the failure becomes catastrophic.
Term
0.5% people
The “0.5%” is basically saying almost nobody notices the problem early. That’s why the host recommends replacing it on a schedule instead of waiting for symptoms.
Term
40, 50,000 miles
They’re talking about how long it can last in miles before it fails. But the host’s message is that miles don’t tell the whole story—time and heat matter too.
“No man’s land” is the host’s way of saying the car is in an awkward price spot. It’s not cheap enough to be a casual first Porsche, but it’s also not rare/expensive enough to be a guaranteed “special car” for everyone.
“Cars and coffee” is a casual car meet where people show up with their cars and hang out, usually over coffee. The hosts are using it as an example of how enthusiasts are using these cars.
A Porsche 914 is an older Porsche model (from the 1960s/70s) that has a mid-engine layout. The hosts are saying its price pattern might end up looking like other 911-era Porsches: regular examples stay similar, while the special ones get much more expensive.
Race gas is a higher-performance gasoline than what you usually buy at a regular gas station. The idea is that it can help the engine make a bit more power, and the hosts think that’s happening in some of these cars right now.
“Cab” here means a convertible—one where the roof can be removed. The host is saying the car can look great with the roof down, but the roof-up look can be less flattering.
“Residual” is shorthand for how much value a car keeps as it gets older. The host is saying that this value trend is part of why prices look the way they do in the used market.
Apple CarPlay lets you connect your iPhone to the car so you can use maps, music, and calls on the car’s screen. The host is saying some older cars need extra work to get it.
A retrofit means adding something to a car after it was built—like installing a newer feature. The host is saying you can add CarPlay and other modern comforts, but it may take parts and labor.
“Air-cooled” refers to engines that rely on airflow and fins to shed heat rather than using a liquid coolant system. The hosts use “air cool cars” to describe a specific Porsche enthusiast segment and to contrast expectations versus reality for buyers.
“Long hood” is a way enthusiasts describe the classic Porsche look—more front-end length than the later cars. The hosts are using it to talk about why people like the older style even if newer cars are easier to live with.
“Trailer your car” means transporting the vehicle on a trailer instead of driving it. The host frames it as a real ownership constraint for specialized cars when the nearest qualified maintenance is far away or when the car can’t be driven safely.
A “rally” is an organized driving event. The host is saying that if you want to take your car to events, you also need to think about how you’ll get it serviced if something goes wrong.
“Sea level” is about how high above sea level you are. Air changes with altitude, and that can affect how a car behaves, so the host is saying it can complicate event travel and troubleshooting.
A configurator is a website tool where you pick options for a car (like packages and add-ons). It shows you the price for the exact build you’re imagining.
“Sports Chrono” is a factory option package that adds track-style features, like driving modes and a timer. It’s the kind of add-on that can raise the car’s price quickly.
“Trade it in” is when you bring your current car to a dealer and apply its estimated value toward the purchase of another vehicle. The speaker is arguing that the dealer’s offer can be much lower than expected, creating a big effective cost even if the buyer thinks they’re “saving money.”
Depreciation means the car is worth less later than it is today. The host is saying some Porsche owners expect their cars to keep value instead of dropping like most cars do.
Term
upside
Here, “upside” means there’s a chance the deal works out better than you fear—like the car doesn’t lose much value. It’s about resale value, not speed.
Mileage is how many miles the car has been driven. Higher mileage usually hurts resale value, so the host is saying keeping miles down helps you get your money back.
Concept
equity right in a car
Equity here means how much of the car’s value you truly have ownership of. The idea is: if you buy at a lower price and the market price later goes up, you build more “owned value” in the car.
A body kit is a set of parts you add to change how a car looks from the outside. In this case, the host says it’s more than just bolt-on styling—it’s a bigger rework based on the Carrera GT.
The Porsche Carrera GT is a rare, high-performance supercar with an engine mounted behind you (mid-engine) and a V10. Here, they’re talking about someone modifying one and whether that kind of change makes sense.
The Porsche 917 is a famous old race car Porsche built for endurance racing. In this conversation, they’re using it as a reference point for how the modified car looks.
Person
Ray Hall
Ray Hall is a person the hosts mention as being involved with Porsche projects. Here, he’s brought up to compare what others are doing with 917s and Carrera GTs.
“Guts” here means the important mechanical parts inside the Porsche Carrera GT. They’re discussing a custom build that keeps the Carrera GT’s core hardware but changes the outside.
Bruce Canapa is mentioned alongside Ray Hall in the context of having work done on Porsche cars. The hosts imply he’s involved in repainting or redoing cars (including Carrera GTs) and using period-correct race aesthetics like Gulf livery.
“Gulf livery” is a specific racing paint design associated with Gulf Oil—usually blue with orange. They’re talking about repainting a car to look like that classic race-car style.
Car
Porsche 919
The Porsche 919 is a famous Porsche race car that competed at Le Mans. Here, they’re basically saying the headlights/design don’t really match what you’d expect from a 919.
A hatchback is a car where the back opens like a door, and the trunk and rear area are part of the same opening. They’re talking about making a 911 with that kind of rear practicality.
Rear-engine means the engine sits toward the back of the car. They’re saying the concept keeps that layout, which helps it feel like a real high-performance car.
The Honda Civic is a compact car made by Honda. It’s usually chosen because it’s reliable and practical for everyday driving. The podcast is mentioning a hatchback version, or something similar to a hatchback Civic.
The Renault 5 Turbo is a famous small hot hatch with a turbo engine. They’re comparing the feel of the concept to that kind of playful, compact performance.
The Ferrari FF is a Ferrari grand tourer that’s known for having all-wheel drive and a practical, usable shape. They’re using it as a style comparison for the hatchback concept’s overall look.
“Greenhouse effect” here means the car looks more enclosed and glassy, like you’re sitting in a cockpit. It’s about the shape of the roof and windows, not climate science in this context.
The Volkswagen ID. Buzz is an electric van made by Volkswagen. It’s designed to be practical and family-friendly, with a shape that’s meant to feel like a classic VW van but in a modern electric form. The podcast is using a joke to describe its size and hatchback-like practicality.
The Volkswagen Golf is a compact hatchback car. It comes in different versions, including sportier ones. The podcast is talking about how many people start out with Golf-type cars and then move on to other vehicles.
A ram air inlet is a special air intake that tries to “scoop” air while you’re driving. Faster speed can mean more air gets pushed into the engine, which can help performance.
C-pillars are the vertical supports behind the rear doors (near the rear windows). They can be shaped to hide air channels so air can be routed without obvious vents.
“Bottom out” means the price stopped falling and reached its lowest point. They’re saying those used Porsche 911 prices didn’t hit the low they expected.
MSRP is the original list price on the car when it was new. They’re saying the used cars got below that list price, but then stopped dropping and stayed around there.
Term
zero-spec car
A “zero-spec car” basically means a new car with very few options—close to the base setup. They’re using it to show that even the simplest version can still be extremely expensive.
“Out-the-door” price means the full total you’ll pay at the end—car price plus taxes and fees. It’s the number you should compare between dealers, not just the sticker price.
LIVE
We are here to bring you everything and anything surrounding Porsche. I'm Mike,
I'm Aaron, and this is Peacart Talk. Welcome to an episode of Peacart Talk, I'm Mike, and I'm
Aaron. Should we thank our people? I'm not ready for that at all. Okay, we can thank them later.
Alright. We're gonna look for that. Well, we can just press. We can press. Alright,
we're pressing. Bench pressing right here. Alright, so Detroit, little excerpt on that,
like the, I don't know if you guys watched that race, but it's a couple things to mention about
that. The GT3R, Rexy as everybody knows, was like heavily BOP'd. I mean like heavily BOP'd. They
took power out of the car. They put weight into the car. And if you don't know, you should know
if you're listening to this podcast, those cars don't have a terrible amount of torque to begin
with. So when you're running a city course, like there is a million turns, you're going pretty
slow. So you're not able to carry a lot of speed because also there's a lot of traffic. So that
car was just set up to fail immediately. Like I think it was in what, 10th when it started?
Yeah, I don't think I realized it was BOP'd, but that makes way more sense. I mean heavy. Like
not usually it's one or the other. Like, oh, we'll take power out. Okay, we'll take weight out,
put weight in, excuse me. They did both. So they took power out and they put weight in. A lot of
people seem to speculate because it was Detroit. They were jerking GM off to make sure that they
were finishing at the top. And if you look at it, it kind of feels that way because the prototype
cars, the Cadillacs did really well. The Corvettes did really well. I'm not hating, but I'm saying
if you watch enough Emsa, you can see between the lines this happens pretty often where Emsa will
placate towards certain brands in certain locations or if you're a new, have a new car,
like even if you're an existing brand, kind of like when the Ford GT came out,
they got to run basically full gamut and no BOPs at all, won a championship and then
they left. And it was like, oh, okay, yeah, we want them to stay. So I think it's
be cool if they just did that naturally.
Well, I think it's a business. I understand that. But a lot of fans don't know that. A lot of fans
don't know the business side of that racing. They just look at it and think everybody's equal.
Okay, yes, they're different cars, but however they decide to balance it out, I don't need to know
the rules. I don't care, whatever. But there's a lot of people who don't know stuff like that,
where they probably understand BOP, but they don't even understand the business side I'm bringing
up where Emsa wants to keep these places, these race teams around for multiple reasons.
A, it brings fans out. A, it brings them money to have them there too. And again,
want to placate towards them because if that race team or factory team or customer racing team,
whatever, fill in the blank, is there spending millions and millions of dollars to race in
this entire series all season and they're unsuccessful and not even just unsuccessful,
like never podium, like getting their ass kicked on a regular basis. What is the likelihood of them
signing back up next year to drop another $10 million to run a race season? Probably not very
good. At least now that track, you know, skip it. Well, the thing about it is it's if you're fighting
for a championship, you need to run all the races. So that's the catch 22 on that. So
because of that, the inside baseball, if you watch enough racing, you understand this, I
understand this, you see these levers being pulled and oh, wow. And most people think like, oh, well,
oh, they're really good on the road course. It's like, no, dude, they're not any better than
anybody else. Like the difference is my first thought to like, I was like, oh, well, we're in
Detroit and I guess kind of like and Chevy are doing and do well there. 100%. It is their own.
I am. But one thing I would like to divide for would be if they're going to be 1.7 mile track,
why can't there be anything in St. Pete? Well, I think there can be the differences is the money
is probably not there. The city of St. Pete doing the deal with Emsa is the difference.
It's told much. They run any car here. They can totally run it.
How do you feel about tracks like that? Because to me, I don't feel like it's boring, but I feel
like it's not. I feel like if you're in the lead, if you place tights, it's really, really hard for
you to get knocked out unless you do something dumb. Yeah, there's a lot of traffic. I like them
because it shakes things up. I think it's important. I mean, it's so important NASCAR even has like
where they run road races. Other than just like circular stuff like something under two miles,
I feel like it's kind of short for a lot of those cars. I'm sure if they could, they would. I think
the issue is the layout of the land. They have to do what they have provided. So ideally, I'm sure
all of them would love to have a better and then also it's road condition too, right? So
either make that race car, making it race car viable, essentially. And then MSA approving that,
okay, this road is good enough to do this. So I think there's a lot that goes into that.
Get more people out there and more vendors. But you would think, I mean, they run Cupcar
stuff in St. Pete. They've run IndyCar here. So clearly that road and that track is good
enough to run those high level cars. I'm sure it's good enough to run any of those MSA prototypes,
any of that stuff. So they ran the National Group C cars in Damba, the fairgrounds.
And honestly, I don't think it's a lack of, it's not a big enough market because that's not,
because at the end of it, Detroit actually is a pretty small city now with everybody that kind
of vacated with after the recession and the fall of a lot of that automotive executives and the
brands and them cutting a lot of fat and all that stuff. So don't get me wrong, there's still a lot
of people live in that area, but Detroit's pretty spread out city too. I think even if they didn't,
if they didn't think this was sexy enough to run here, why wouldn't they run their track,
the F1 track in Miami? Like they would, from a population standpoint, they can't argue that
because there's a gazillion people live in Miami, they already have a good enough track to run Formula
1 there. So they could just mimic that track and run that. Why don't they do that? I don't know.
Our album's dead. Either way. I mean, it would probably be sexier to run that Miami thing.
And it's already laid out. Well, if they could make it all work, yeah, that's true.
But I'm saying however, it wouldn't be that complicated, but the most complicated part about
it probably would be either A, the city bidding for it, or somebody lobbying to make that happen,
and then fitting it in to the schedule properly. But think about it, at the beginning of the year,
they're in Florida, they're at Daytona, then they're in Sebring in March. They could run
somewhere in February, like a road track, because they're already, they stay in Florida.
Everybody who's listening may not know that. Those teams don't leave. They're still here.
They don't just pack their stuff up and put it on airplane and fly them all out. Maybe the
racers do go home, the drivers, but the cars and the teams, they stay in the state of Florida,
and they go to a temporary home where they work on their cars, and they have their places, and
they don't ship the cars, because it just costs too much money. They're like, all right, we're
already in Florida for Daytona, Sebrings, and literally what, six weeks from that race?
Cast and do all that stuff, so that's probably less time, yeah.
So that would be very easy to run a road race, hour and a half, two-hour race, city race,
either in Miami or St. Pete, as you said, because already here. So why is that not on the schedule?
I don't know. But somebody's missing an opportunity, and you would think the France
family owning Emsa and being home base in Florida would see this oversight. Well,
I mean, they could just take away a race from somewhere else that maybe is not doing anything
for them, just to spice things up. And then Florida in February is definitely the place you want to
be at. Or the 963's BOP as well. I just felt like we just, as Porsche is showing, it just,
what didn't seem the same like it's been the last few races.
The cars didn't, they were also BOP, but not as heavy. I mean, you could tell by quality,
the cars weren't good, like meaning the GTP cars. Even Heinrich, I want to say Heinrich dominated.
Well, he's been on fire. Like I just think those cars just, it's weird though, because last year,
they were pretty competitive, the GTP cars there.
That seems like they're the opposite. They were competitive at a smaller track or a shorter,
yeah, endurance. And then not so much with the longer stuff. And then this year, they kind of
have it set up where it's better everywhere else. The weird part about that is those teams are so
dynamic. I don't understand why there's so much fluctuation. They have a ton of data is what
I'm getting at in like, I would be going, whatever, Heinrich is loaded up and as in running, we're
going to be doing that because because he said setups in three different car while the same car
twice and then his Mustang sampling car, obviously it's probably the same setup or close. Everybody
get used to this and run that. I mean, it can't be that far off from everybody else's stuff.
But that setup is probably not set up for that tight track. So they were probably scrambling
to try to figure that out. And Porsche is only going to help so much because that's a customer
racing team and they're a factory team. So they share data, but they don't share everything. It's
almost they give them the equation missing like a number or something. And they're like, it's up to
you guys to figure it out. You're like, what is this a quest? Like, I'm not trying to figure this out.
And then there's plugging stuff in. They're like, Oh, that made the car way worse. All right, try
this. Oh, that made it a little bit better, but not. But did it make it better because we made
it worse. And then you start playing these head games with yourself. It's like, is the car actually
better from them when it was at the beginning, or is it just better because we made it shitty?
Factory team is walking by going, it's like, we didn't, we didn't do anything to the car. We're
just messing with them. That is in work. Yeah. Yeah, it wasn't a very good showing, I guess,
to conclude that topic, but it was a short race too. It was like, I was gonna end up and I was
once I saw where we qualified, I knew we had no shot because you're not going from P eight to
one unless there's a monster crash, which does happen at those things because they bottleneck
up. Like if one car messes up, there's a lot of people can get into traffic and pretty much
DNF a lot of people. But you saw like right right away, I think it was lap one. I mean,
Nazar clip that accurate and I was like, Oh, come on, gotta be so aggressive. Yeah, it's like lap
one. It's like, dude, but I get it. I know you're on a short schedule and you got to take your
opportunities when you can. But yeah, in those, the bad part about those races just like Long Beach,
like if you're not, if you don't, if you don't call a good thing, yeah, if you're not
spreading the entire time, if you have to do anything that looks like a bit, yeah, it's just
you're done. Yeah, like prime example, like if you get your fender clip, not even your fault,
just trying to get through something and you could be qualified. Well, like to say you qualified,
you know, P2 P3 and somebody as you're lapping your first or second lap and you're lapping the
GTD cars, you get clipped on a fender and you got to go in and they got to replace the front clip.
Your race is over, dude. That's it. Unless somebody unless they crash out, like it's not
everybody. And that's that is the one drawback in my personal opinion on those super tight races
and that's probably why they're so short because it's supposed to add to that, I guess sense of
urgency when they're in the cars like everybody's got to be go, go. And I thought
honestly, Kevin Estra always does well. I mean, they went from PA to like four, like in the first
two or three laps and I'm like, okay, this is actually super surprising. He's he's he is doing
Kevin things and maybe this dude is going to like make moves. And then they just they ran into a bag
of crap and it was just that was it. And it's like, all right, cool. Like he flashes of himself,
not that he just it's not his fault. You know, similar crap that happened at the Nurburgring,
you know, he was he was on fire, like he was he was going to be great. And then
patch oil and can't do anything about it. You know, that motor goes right into the wall. And
that's it lights out. I mean, what was that at like two out three hours in wasn't much two or
three hours in in the Nurburgring, right? And that was it. And and Grallow was gone that quick.
And it was like, Great, we've been waiting for this entire time for this waiting again. So since
we're on the race topic, you see the rumors about Max racing at the 24 hour Rolex. And
yeah, so he's people are starting to think like he's obviously going to keep racing F1. That's
not where this is going. But he wants to he's not retiring, dude. He I think he's now on his quest
to win as many crowns at as many tracks at the high levels of racing that he can. People are
speculating that he hasn't come out and said that. But people are thinking that this is the beginning
of him kind of moonlighting at certain racetracks, not running full seasons, but saying like,
okay, I want to win overall at Daytona, I want to win overall at Sebring, I want to win overall,
you know, he wants to hit all of the highlight reel wins, I want to win overall at Le Mans,
like those kind of things to in addition to what he's continued to do in F1. It's not,
it's not like in lieu of it's, it's both. He wants both right now the money and the money's rolling
in. Well, he's good enough to do both. I mean, well that too. And he's still in a great condition
to do to. Yeah. Yeah, like you said, to do everything. That makes sense versus like coming
out of it, maybe waiting a couple of years. Well, he's probably looking at it like, well,
if I, if I have the downtime, why wouldn't I go race? Like I'm just sitting around anyways. And
he's so hardcore, like he just wants to race. He's like, other guys are wanting, you know,
want to gallivant around with some girl that's been tossed around, you know, all these years
with like rappers and all these other people. And then now I'm going to make you my girlfriend.
And then I'm going to drive around in a 40. It's like, I'm not naming names, but I think
you guys can figure out who that person is. I'm not saying he's a bad person. I'm just saying he's
he's well accomplished. He's won a lot of championships, but you can tell
he's not as hungry as he was once was when he was younger. He's more concerned about,
and he is older. So he's, he's moving into a different part of his life
where he's kind of enjoying himself. I like that side of Lewis Hamilton. I think he was
closed up for a very, very long time. And he seemed like a pretty stressed out guy for a very
long time. We had a lot going on. He was trying to be the best. Yeah. So, and I think Max probably
had a lot to relate with that, like, because that's Max has been that way for a very, very long
time. After having the kid, I think that made a difference for him, too. Yeah. Well, he's kind
of lightened up some, right? Like where he's showing some like sense of humor. And he seems
like a pretty funny guy, like sarcastic funny, but for a long time he just kept it in.
And the side of Max is good. Like, I think it's good for his brand. I think it's good for the
brand of Red Bull, like, and I think it's, I think it's a way for Red Bull to
kind of give him a consolation, especially when their F1 car is not as optimum as it used to be.
So he's kind of like, well, if the car is shit, you got to let me do other stuff. And you guys
are going to front the bill, meaning like you are going to, you guys are going to give me a race
team to run. He's going to sponsor some more things here. Yeah, you're going to give me a race
team to run at Nurburgring. You're going to give me a race team in a car to run at Le Mans. You're
going to give me a race team to run at Daytona. And they're like, yeah, we have trillions of
dollars. We will do that to keep you. Because what they're probably trying to do is
make sure they keep their claws in him so he doesn't run off to another F1 manufacturer.
That's what they're trying to do. And the easiest way to turn him off, if he was interested in
doing those things and saying, no, you're under contract under F1, we can't risk you getting
hurt and doing all that other stuff. Because if they probably did that, he'll be like, cool,
I am definitely out then. It may be interesting to see him and Lewis on the same team and like a
Ferrari or something or just McLaren, just go crush it. I just don't know if they're in the
same wavelength anymore, like meaning I think it would have been better to see, but the age
difference would have never made sense. Like those those that that would have never cross
intersected with each other in a perfect world. It would have been great to see
like Max right now. I feel like as in his his prime and then when Lewis was in his prime,
if those two were like at the same age battling it out, that would have been phenomenal to see.
That would have been insane. So if we go back in time and then make them the same age, you'll be
that right. Speaking of European things though, I sent you that clip of Monza. Oh,
the GTA was on race. I've never seen I've always seen that like some racing. I've never seen
I mean six cars. I didn't I didn't see it from the angle that I sent you.
I always saw from the point of view from the cars were just a bunch of racks. I didn't know
it's the car flipped. Yeah. To come back on track. I was like, whoa, that's just like the craziest
accident bottleneck situation. Everybody just coming in super hot. Yeah.
It's just everybody's trigger happy, man. Yeah. Instead of like, you don't know Monza,
which should the first turn is that's a hard hairpin to the right. When they have an escape
row just for that. And it didn't matter. Everybody was already in that turn. Everybody comes down
here and it's just matted because you have that long straight coming in. Yeah. And then it's
hard ass breaks. Like because you said it's a hairpin, like it's like hard hairpin right.
And if you overshoot that, like I'm sure when you're out there qualifying and you you have
a clean road, that's easy to navigate. But when you're trying to break and there's 30 other cars
where you should be breaking like you're in my breaks home. Like
yeah, that that just showed that was insane. But but probably just a lot of trigger happy people,
man, ready to like get after it. But yeah. So that was a race weekend kind of dismal. But
on the next one, most of it. Yeah, I did too. I mean, it wasn't a long race. So
it was interesting. All right, so let's move on. So let's do a market report. We haven't like,
we touched on it on the last episode. We're not going to go over obviously 997 GT threes or 993s.
I say we're not. Okay. But that was that that was our light grazing of it. We'll go a little bit
here. 914s like heaven always them for like deep dive here on. So we'll stay in the 997 realm for
a second. 997 Carrera S's. Yeah, dude. We talked about this before. But not in length. But we said,
hey, this is going to be the next bigger thing. Yeah. And I'm kind of shocked by it, to be honest
with you. Like, let's unpack this because the reason why I'm shocked by it is there are problems
with that car. And there's let's say no nine. That's it. But if it needs to, well, I mean,
like bore scoring stuff, I'm talking about like three, they all they all can. Yeah, like, yeah,
I'm talking about S's right now, because those are the cream right now and manual cars to be
to be clear. Prime example, granted, these are asks on these cars. These aren't hammered sale
prices. These are static asks. These aren't auction. But the fact that they're asking these
prices, there's a couple of them out there that I just thought were kind of, they're not outliers
because there's some like, multiple different places are pricing them this way. It's not like
one house trying to control all of them. Like 75,000 mile, midnight blue, you know, nice color,
nothing crazy, not PTS. 75,000 miles. Ask is one town on the car manual. I mean,
that's strong money, dude. That's crazy strong money. 40 to 50 more than it was not long ago.
Yeah. And then 100,000 mile cars selling, you know, ask is 65 to 85 on like a silver car.
That's just 100,000 mile plus car ask is like 80,000 on a Carrera S. Don't get me wrong. I
think they're great cars. I love the way they look. That's just crazy money when those cars,
that's a that's a $30,000 car, like with 100,000 miles on it. That's a 30. Let's be real. That's
a $30,000 car. Like I don't care what anybody says. Like I'll call your baby ugly. I don't care.
Like it's a great car. I think it's a great driver's car. But when it's mild up like that,
it should be but the market's hot on those right now. And I guess me bringing this up,
it's not even just a brag on it. Just be careful out there. Don't get caught up in that undertow.
If you're listening to this and go chase one of these things because you think you're missing out.
Like yes, go buy one of those, but buy it right. Don't because I have a feeling
the blue, the blue one will probably hold its money. Maybe not that high, but
anything base base is coming up my dip again.
No, I don't I don't think it'll go down essentially, but I just don't.
I don't think that they're just because you pay that I don't think that's where the market values
it, meaning the rest of like once they kind of dry up, I still think people like me and you and
other people that have been in the industry for a while. If I see a hundred and twenty,
hundred and 30000 mile career ask and ask a 75000 dollars on it.
I have zero interest in that car. You could still buy an air cooled car at 75
thousand dollars. Exactly. I mean, the point you're making is kind of weird and I never thought
about it like this, but I don't understand how we're having like futures based pricing.
When they're not, it's not. I mean, yes, it's 20 years old now, but it's still not.
No, or they are cool. It's where 30 to 40 years old before they're not even classic status yet.
They're not classic status. People are like you said, that's a great description.
People are anticipating the run and they're paying up.
Thinking they're going to be ahead of it, meaning like that they're going to make a run.
Like clearly they they think they are going to make a run because everybody's got them priced up.
What if it what if it like rolls like the 996 all of a sudden shoots up and then well,
they are up. That's going to be the next thing we're going to talk about. They are up in general,
but like that from the last time we really talked about 997s, we talked about them
in the sense I want to say almost two years ago, we're saying if you wanted a good car that was
kind of modern and you're not hung up on a GT car, but you want a manual transmission.
No, we said 60 70s. Oh, for good ones for like I'm talking about like with 40,000 miles.
Like 60 grand was like all the money on them. And they were and around
like I mean a bunch of them like you could shake a tree and three of them would fall out.
Like they were around. Now they're drying up. People are buying them. I don't know if it's because
obviously I'm not being arrogant because we brought that up. But maybe two years ago,
there was other people bringing that up like other brokers bringing that up other people
flooding the market and telling other people that people were getting,
you know, advised by people like us and other people and say, Hey, you want to get into a
sweet spot and you want to and so maybe people bought two years ago and maybe why that's why
this is drying up a little bit. It's that the halo effect of all the other cars being so expensive
like I can get 90% of the yeah. Well, think about it this way. Like when we talked about it a couple
weeks ago with the GT three, it's not the 997s. If you're a hardcore 997, just chassis fan,
like not even GT car specific, not you know, Carrera S not GTS. If you're just that if you're in
love with that chassis and you're one of those folks that has to have one and you've been priced
out of a GT car, like we said two years ago, the Carrera S is where you want to be at in that car
with a manual. And I think a lot of people took that to heart and made a moves on that because
right now, there isn't that much selection out there. They're out there. But to be fair,
they made a ton of them. They made a ton and there's not that many out there for sale,
which is shocking to me because a couple years ago, there was probably 100 of them
for sale at any given point. Now there's like 20. So people are buying and holding those and people
who got in early good for you guys because that that was the right move because now I don't want
to call them clapped up, but mild up ones are still are commanding more money because that
resource is drying up and people are like getting that FOMO effect of, uh-oh, if I don't get one,
I'm not going to get one. And then I'm going to be in the same boat as when the GT3 set sale and
I missed that boat. Now I'm missing the Carrera S boat and I don't want to miss that boat. And
for me, watching this happen in slow motion is just kind of crazy. I mean, we check in every
few years on this, but like to see that progression happen for that car and it sounds really crappy
to say this. It's like that car is not worth that. And overall in the Porsche market, specifically
911 market, all of them are up. Yeah, it's true. Like without deep diving on every single one,
all of them are up. I'm talking about like not like we talked about before. Go get yourself a 991.1
before they get out of hand. They're already starting to get out of hand. It's like you're
seeing base model cars that asks on them and they don't even have sports exhaust and they're
missing stuff, meaning they don't have every box checked on that option list, which is fine.
Some people don't want that. I'm not even talking about manual transmission ones because they bring
even more PDK cars, 65,000 with like 80,000 miles on it to like less miles, maybe 80 grand on base
models. And it's kind of like, what? So get one of those before it happens. Well, yeah, go grab if
you got to go to the model, like go get a manual one of those. Like in an S, you could probably bag
one for like 90-ish, which is insane because that's like a 2014, 2015 car for 90 grand, 10 years,
11 years old, which is still going to be under the MSRP of the car. Yeah, but that just shows you
the brand new pricing with Porsche. As we reported when they did those quarterly rollouts, when they
kept doing another price increase, what this has done is forced everybody
else that was going to buy a Porsche or has a lifelong dream to own a Porsche 911 or I need to
hurry up and get one of those 911s before I get priced out, like whatever you want to call it,
because they were not interested in buying the 992, you know, because it got so expensive and
their prices on it were so much, people started going to that used market and
used to be flooded and it's not anymore. All of the good stuff, all the cherry stuff is drying up.
So now the scraps are out there and people are fighting over these scraps. And to be frank,
there's a couple that pop up here and there, but just like if you're paying attention on a regular
basis and I'm talking about like public postings, not auction postings where like there's somebody's
hard posting a car for sale, like whether it be a small boutique shop or a private sale.
If it's a good car and it's a good spec, it does not last. Like you can look at it today and in
three days it'll be gone. That posting will come down because somebody already made a move on it.
Like people are acting as if those are GT cars because that market, the 911 market as a whole
is so strong. I mean, it's insane. And we talked about it with the 996 turbos. I'm talking about
like 100,000 mile 996 turbos for $80,000. What's an air kick are going for right now?
Yeah, 60 grand, $65,000, which is you could buy those cars for 19 grand. I mean, that was a while
ago. That's that's that was pre COVID pricing. But to be fair, that's not that long ago in
timeline wise, like in car wise. So if you think about it, that was like 19.
It's what seven years ago. So that cars that cars tripled in three in seven years.
So you went from 20 grand to actually more than that, like 65 is the ask on them now.
And you can barely find them because people are holding those two. And you know, even with the
dreaded IMS bearing that people got to flip out or whatever they got to do and, you know, get
it changed. There's fixable stuff. But going back to, you know, the S's, it is shocking to me because
they do suffer from bore scoring. And it's not the boogeyman that the internet like that actually is
pretty common with the S's, especially I think it's cylinder bank four and six.
Um, because they just they're in the back, they get hot and they don't get enough oil on them.
I know, right? Um, but you know, there's fixes for it, but it's a it's a $15,000 to $20,000 fix
because it's engine out. You got to put Nick a cell sleeves in there. But once you do that,
you're great. But so what you go spend $75,000 on the car and then you got to drive number
20,000. So you're all in it at 95. I mean, if it's your forever car, I guess it's not that
bad because if you retrospect that driving experience, you still have hydraulic spirit
steering. So you could either spend 95 for that car or go spend 95 for a 991.1 or two.
And you don't have those same engine problems, but your spell is 995. So I guess it really
depends if you're in love with that chassis is you're going to be make that move,
right? Yeah, you're going to like and it already it has a little bit of classic
vibes just because it's older. So I think that's part of it, whether you and I don't see it that
way. But I think there's other people that do see it that way, that they're like, oh, those are
more simpler. I guess they're older, you know, those are older 911s. And there's a lot of YouTubers
and and even people outside of YouTube journalists that are saying that's the, you know, they I
think this gets overused, but I'm just going to repeat what they're saying. I'm not saying it,
but oh, that was the the best modern 911 that they made, you know, because it had hydraulic
steelering and it had, you know, a good motor in it. The car was still nimble. It didn't feel super
wide. And then it went to 991. And then but they're trying to make an argument of why the 997 is
great. I agree. Like I'm a 997 fan. Obviously, I know you are too. But the 991 is a great car too.
It really is. I think it's a nostalgia factor from those people and, you know, time and place versus
like it's again, a lot of stuff is subjective on whether it's better or not better. Yeah,
I think it's, you know, well, I think a lot of people are starting to and I'm glad that they're
doing this. They're just figuring out what works for them. Some people 997s work for them. Some
people hate them because they're not they're not as good as 991s. You know, I've heard both sides
of it and I get it. It does. It feels a little bit more like agricultural, like a 997 does feel
that way. It's not going to do a lot of stuff, but there's a lot of people chasing that, especially
if they're chasing a modern feel, meaning with like AC and air and heat and some heated seats,
but they still want kind of like retro vibes. That's pretty much where you want to land in that
997, whether it's a dot one or dot two, you want to live there. If that's if you need all of those
things and you're not necessarily looking for a daily, that's going to be your special car,
essentially, but you just don't want to spend air-cooled money because either a,
you're either afraid of the motor, not enough power, whatever. Well, I mean, at that point with
one of the career assets or an air-cooled, you're going to be doing the same money spend.
Kind of. Yeah, initially, initially, yes, but I think the difference is there's a big power
difference, right? Clearly. You got 355 bone stock, some tuning, some exhaust. You could probably
you could probably bump that motor close to 400, especially, and then you do the sleeves on it,
and you got a manual car. I mean, it's a great looking car. It's got a
sun-eye modern power, kind of. But yeah, I see the appeal, but I'm just shocked by the pricing.
This is 2026, I guess. Well, I mean, it's more or not even halfway through it yet. I think
I'm noticed even in just the last three months across the board because I've been shopping just
because I shop early. Yeah. Even though I'm a year out, I'm still shopping. I'm cross-shopping
everything just in its. If you get a 997 career asset. Not happening. Nope. I will not pay that
kind of money for that car. Basically, the ask on those cars is what I paid for my GT car.
Yeah. Not going to happen. What would you? I mean, I know it's a different time and place,
but that I can't undo what my brain knows. That's true. The anchor point's heavy.
What would you even look for in a spec for a car as these days and pay money for like,
is there anything special you did? Well, I know there's a really nice one out in Grand Prix.
I think it's a 997.2 manual and jet green metallic with a black interior,
I think 40,000 miles. And I think the ask on it's like 130.
Oh, yeah. No, I did better than that on the same color.
And that's draw money too. Yeah. Right. Goodbye GT3. I mean, I know that's not everybody's cup of
tea. I mean, that those are two different animals. That's a daily your bull car. That's more softer
meaning that clear as it's just softer. It's probably easier sell for a partner than a GT car,
especially if you have children and stuff. You can be like, baby out of the back seat,
I can take him to ice cream or whatever suburban people do. It's going to be sweet old foods.
Yeah. You know, babe, when Joe around town came home, Joe by the baseball field,
all the little Tommy's out there. But yeah, that's a strong ask.
And what I would want, I would like something like maybe blue.
But I don't I would you like, do you like 997 enough to make a purchase on that? Or would you
just in your mind just skipping go 991 and get newer tech and I'm skipping it for me for my
purposes. Like it's not even it's something that I I wasted 30 seconds on thinking about. I mean,
I don't get me wrong. I did a lot of research shopping just to see where pricing was. And I
think if pricing was more attractive, it would it would be an option for me. The fact that the
pricing is not attractive. Totally throws that car out for me. Looking at what that car's value
is for me personally. They're the ask on that car and the purpose that I would use that car,
those those don't intersect. Meaning there's a big ask for that car.
And I'm not parking it. I'm going to drive it because it would be my daily. And I don't
I don't want to spend another 20,000 on top of spending 65 or 70 on 100,000 mile car
just to do the cylinder walls on it because I'm not that in love with that chassis to do that.
Because I'm more of the Okay, well, if we're if we're talking now we're talking what close to
100 grand, why don't we just spend 100 grand from the beginning? Yeah, instead of spend a little bit
and then do the motor and like all that other stuff because, you know, it was like, oh, well,
you know, it's, it's analog, it's this, I have two analog cars. So like, I'm in a different
situation than a lot of folks. Like if it was my only car, that it was going to be my special car,
I would probably give it more consideration. Like me assessing it is its value is not really fair.
Like I get that there's other people out there that value it for different reasons. My value on
that car would not be valid for a lot of other folks. Because I don't the price behind that
doesn't make sense to me. Now, if it was a Metzger engine car and I could buy 150,000 mile
Carrera s and I knew that motor was bulletproof. And basically, I just needed like, ah, the seats
are kind of chewed up, I got to do some like reupholstery stuff and maybe do like a clutch and
all that stuff and I can I can get away with spending maybe 10 grand just to do a refresh
like for like aesthetic stuff, but no no motor stuff really, I could get on board for that.
But the fact that I know in my mind, I'm like, I know too much. So I know that has to happen.
And I'm not, I'm not signing up for that. So we're saying get the future future classic.
Well, I just think every we say this, but every passing year, like whatever,
whatever Porsche comes out with when the 992 gen dies, and we get into whatever chassis gen
that is, and we're into that for five to eight years, people will be like, Hey, that 992 dot
one is a pretty good car. Like right now, it's not in that like that's just how it works. The step
ladder just keeps working as that. The mind of yeah, as this spectrum keeps going.
As those age people, oh, this isn't that bad of a car. Like people are already doing that with
991s, right? They're like, this is great. So I think it just turns into one of those
what works for you? What what are you looking for? And I feel
the people that are buying those cars are not the people I don't think they're using them for
dailies. I think they are buying them for their special cars, meaning they they're cashing in on
that car saying, I'm putting my my flag in the ground on a 997 Carrera S. I got a good spec car
whatever spec they decided the wherever they landed on, meaning they hunted whatever they
wanted down, whether that be color, or they were chasing options, whatever it was. And then they
said, Okay, I know this is part of the thing. I'm going to keep an eye on it. You know, I'll
send my oil out to Blackstone Laboratories for oil analysis, and I'll keep an eye on it. And
when it's ready, and I start seeing, you know, bass boat glitter paint in my oil, then I'll go to
a nickel cell lining on on the and I'll sack up and I'll pay the money because I love this car
that much because this is my car that I'm going to hang on to 20, 30 years, whatever fill in the
blank. And I could get on board for that if that's, but that's not my purpose. Like my purpose would
be like, I need to drive it every day. It's like, I don't want to dump another 20 grand into the motor
because I'm so in love with the Carrera S. I'm not. So I need something that's not going to be a
pain in my ass is what I need. Three liter one day, four liter the next. Yeah. And then who knows,
you still grenade the motor, right? So they're not depending on who builds a damn thing. Like,
yeah, it was like, oh, we're, we're so and so shot. We build tons of these. It's like, okay,
why do they always blow up? Well, you did that. That's driver air. It's like, okay.
You're saying all these people are driver air. I don't know about that, brother.
I think that's assembly air.
It's like Legos, right? Yeah. But that's just one. That's the nine. I said, so like
99 sixes. All right. So let's go when I'm in talk about Turbos. Just base Carreras.
They're up. So like a nice one. Granted, this is an outlier just because it's a,
it's an anniversary car. But like, what is it the 40th anniversary?
With a different front bumper?
I've seen one of that. Ask on one. It's got granted. It's got low miles. I think it's got like
10,000 miles on it. $95,000. Like that car could have been had for 35
a few years ago. No problem. Even with that mileage. So that gives you perspective.
Let's take my 95 and go towards a GT car or turbo car at that point. I mean,
I just think that the 911 market is on fire right now and nobody's really talking about it.
And I don't know if it's because we're in the thick of summer coming up and maybe,
but they were on driving. They were trending anyways, even with this before this.
I think, yeah, I think the point that we probably should, that's been made. But if you're looking
at getting a car, get the car. Yeah. I mean, don't wait because it just gets worse.
And we've said that for the last ever set up for ever. It just gets worse. It really does.
It doesn't. They don't ever go down. They don't go down. It's the only brand that's doing that
right now for sports car. They don't go down, especially if you're chasing, especially a 911,
especially a 911 for whatever reason, even 996, the unloved one for the longest time,
C4S's with 90,000 miles or selling for $55,000, which is insane. That is like a $28,000 car.
And again, I'm not hating on that car. It's like actually one of my,
one of my favorite cars. I love the 996 4S. It looks great. It's a beautiful car. And now,
to be fair, we're all, everything that I'm mentioning is manual cars, like tips don't
count because of course you can go get a tip 996 C2 for $18,000. And you're going to get an $18,000
experience. So that's okay if that's what you want. I'm not hating, but I'm talking about manual
cars where drivers, driver enthusiast spec, where you can go row the gears because that's
generally the whole reason why you want to buy a 911, at least as your special car. Now,
if you're dailying it and you're doing different stuff or you're doing track stuff,
you want PDK for GT3 cars, that's a slippery soap. But I'm just saying these NA cars that aren't
super powerful, that you got to roll them out and get all the RPM out of them, the best way to
experience them is a manual transmission. That's just hands down. Yeah, analog experience is part
of it. I don't even know that there's a checkbook for automatic on my car searches. It just finds
manuals every time. It just does it, right? Yeah. It just knows you. Yeah, but those cars are up
too, even 996s. I've seen a lot of special colors lately too, like Instagram, Inverzen.
The asks are there and people are paying them. I think there's a lot of low key FOMO maybe going on.
What I mean by that is there's not a big hype wagon of people like, oh, you should buy this,
we have no skin in the game. We're just reporting what we're seeing. But across the board,
they all can't be in cahoots with each other. They're not consulting with one another.
And you get one? Yeah, I'm getting one too. I'm saying for the sales and driving the
sale prices up because there's private sales mixed in with dealership sales and all that stuff,
but they're all roughly very close to one another. Now I'm not saying if you're a private sailor,
like you're not knowledgeable, but my point is all that water is still rising and it's just
going to keep rising, which is baffling to me because I thought those cars, in my opinion,
would always be affordable because of all of the stuff that goes in with it. The moniker of like,
I know people over the headlights. I never had a problem with it, especially when I had my 996
turbo. Never had issues. I like them. They don't bother me. You don't see the headlights when
you're driving. That's the whole thing too. But anyways, what the car provides is such performance,
especially the turbo variant or the GT variants, but even the non GT variants, the S, the C4S,
or just the Carrera, those cars, I wouldn't call them engine problems, but they have their little
niggles about them. And that's why it's shocking to me, like when we brought up the 997 C2S,
it has its engine niggles and the IMS, a lot of people go and do it. It's not super expensive to
do, but it needs to be done. But even with that, the prices are still going up. And I don't know
if that's because the people that are either buying them are not considering that or they just don't
care. I don't know what the reason is there, but it's shocking because that's what's always kind
of held those back a little bit where they're kind of like, all right, well, yeah, you have good
steering feel, you have this, but the engine isn't like the best. There's issues here. There's this,
there's this, you're not going to drive this car 500,000 miles and the engine's not going to give
you problems. If you go that way and you don't do preventative maintenance, meaning like
multiple IMS bearings, and I think that's another, while we're on that topic, because we're good at
spiraling, that's a, that's a wear item. I think a lot of people look at it like, oh, I got an
LN, the guy, the previous owner did an LN engineering IMS bearing nine years ago on it. Well, you need
to do another one because that also wears like that's a, that's like a patch fix. That's not a
forever fix. That bearing's not, that's a wear item. So, and even if you reach out to them like
LN engineering will tell you that not because they're trying to resell you something, they're
going to be like, look, that's considered a wear item. Like when it's done, it's great and it's
going to be good for a while. But even if the car doesn't put miles on it, it sits just like
Ferraris, it sits like, oh, well, I didn't drive it. You're like, yeah, well, it sat for five years.
It's time to do a time about again. You're like, I put zero miles on it. It's like, yeah, but that
belt degradated. But it's been a year. Yeah. So it's similar situation like that you're going to
drive the car. So the heating and the cooling of that bearing and all that stuff, like you've got to
do them. It's almost kind of the point where if you're in love with that chassis, you should approach
that as that is a wear item. And that is a serviceable item, meaning every three to four years,
you should probably, yeah, you should be looking at that at least. Because the issue with that is
there's no warning. Like when that one goes, that's a grenade. Yeah. Yeah. If you're one of those
very, very few like 0.5% people that caught it as it was happening, you'll get maybe some like shimmer.
And then it's like, uh, but most of the time it's game over. I don't think about it being a wear item.
It is. It's not a, it's not a fix it in good forever situation. But yeah, I guess it's treated
like that because you think about, well, I did it. So it's going to, it's, it was already good for,
you know, 40, 50,000 miles. Should you be okay? Technically, yes. Technically, yes.
But you should not, if you cared about your investment and you paid up, it only costs
like three grand. So if you, if you do it every five years and you, let's just say you put away
money to do it, like you break down what three grand is over five years, like that's nothing.
I was going to say that too is it's like a hundred bucks a month now that the market
is where it's at. I don't think that, I think that 150, whatever, I think even fixing those issues
is not, not an issue because now I'm being a hundred grand for the car. I'm going to have money
to do the imass. I'm going to have money. It's just a different bracket of car buyer at that point.
I agree. I agree with that. But I also think that I find it baffling though, like those cars, like
I don't know if, if they'll always be able to command. Like that's one I'm not sure
about, like where, if it keeps going up, that that car might not fall flat because
once that buyer pull dries up and the mean as we age, I mean more 911s keep getting introduced,
meaning like the next gen comes out. So then now the 992 is the old car, meaning as they keep
getting pushed down the line, I don't know if 996s continue to have a permanent cachet about them,
where especially based off what you said is there's more, more money coming in or, or higher
income buyers coming in, I don't think they turn to a 996 right away. Like the whole, the whole
great thing about 996 is before and leading up to basically the last two years before this
conversation where they were affordable. And now, now they're moving into a territory where
they're really, I would say they are still the most affordable 911, but they weren't like they
used to be. I mean, even the clapped out ones are $20 something thousand dollars. That's not
in the grand scheme of things. I mean, $20 something thousand dollars is $20 something
thousand dollars, man. Like that's not just for a fun car, especially if you're, you know,
working to make ends meet and you got a family and all that stuff, like what, you're just going
to eke out, Hey, babe, I'm going to drop it out of 30 grand on a 996. Like the hell you are, like
they may be more of the motorbikes, you know, we need a new AC. You're going to go buy a car.
Like that's not going to happen. So I feel like it falls in that weird, like no man's land personally
for me because you got people that have the money. So then if they have the money, like,
why wouldn't they just go somewhere else in the Porsche 911 market than that? Because that's used
to be the again, the affordable. Oh, I can afford this. Hey, I'm, I can go buy a $19,000 C, you
know, C two manual 2000, you know, 2000 car that has 70,000 miles on it. And I can drive it and
take care of it. And this was fun. Like I bought a $20,911 like that. That's gone. Do you think
it's going to become like the nine 14s where it's in the air cooled world? There should be enough
of amateurs don't see a ton of them out and about and the pricing is up. Where they get to a point
where they just kind of hold and they stop going up and they just kind of live at a number. You
mean is that where you're kind of going with that? You still don't see them that often, even though
there should be an abundance of, well, you don't see a lot of 996s already. I mean, we see them
when we go to like Porsche events, but you don't just see them out. I mean, to be fair, you don't
it goes back to what we had during that 997 conversation of people are buying them as their
special cars, not the daily one because of the age of the car. And I feel like people are doing
that with 996s. I think there's still, I mean, the numbers don't lie, there's a gazillion of them,
just like 997s. But the difference is is you're either driving them on the weekends,
with their friends going up to the mountains or having fun with that, or they're going to cars
and coffee, they're not they're not just tooling them around on a regular basis, usually. So there's
that. I think you brought up a good point, though, with the 914, because I think that could be like
the 914 of the 911 era, essentially. And I don't mean that in a negative way, like I think it'll
get to a number. And then it was kind of hang out there. But like in the same thing with the 914s,
all the run of the mill ones kind of like hover around the same price. But then the special
ones are very pricey. And there are some special 996s out there. And I feel like that's already
happening. They're very pricey. The difference between the 914, obviously, and the 996s, there
were a lot more variants of the 996 than there were 914s. But yeah, I think that's a good cross
comparison. Well, just because it looks different, it's kind of that same thing where it's not,
it doesn't fit in the form of like, it's not a 911 in the same shape and that type of thing.
Are we ever going to get to a point where we see like, for example,
you know, the best air cool comparison, I can say is like, are we going to get to a point where we
see a 1980 SC that's like currently right now, it's like 85,000 essentially, like maybe not like
a clapped out one, but like they have miles on them, obviously they've been driven, but like
taking care of good maintenance. Are we going to see 996 C twos that are going to be $85,000 someday?
I don't think so, but I don't know anything, I guess. I mean, I might eat crow here in a few
years, but dude, you know, 100,000 miles C twos 996 is selling for $105,000. But that just, if you
see that, that just makes everything else 3x. And I think at some point, things will settle down.
But I think we're right now, somebody's put some, you know, race gas in the tank,
because there's a little bit more power in that market right now. Like all of those cars are
kind of surging all of them, which is weird. Like the only of all of those cars, I would say
outside of like a 991 Turbo S cab, Cabrio's historically in this still holds true 996 997s
even 991s. If you're okay with a cab, they're still attractively priced.
But maybe not forever though, because of that rising tide, but right now they still are.
Because a lot of people, they have that moniker of, that's a cab, it's not an enthusiast car.
I don't necessarily agree with that. I'm more of like a body lines guy. I feel like they didn't
get good looking, meaning cab wise till like 991. Even a 997 Turbo manual, like it looks like it's
wearing a toupee or something in a cab. And it's just kind of, but top down, it looks gorgeous.
What the top up, it kind of looks like. Yeah, it's just kind of looks, well, it's an afterthought.
It screws the body line up. And it could be that is the reason why they're all like,
I guess I would say attractively priced still, where you could go get a 997 C2S,
not like low miles, but I would just say driver miles and still pick one up for like 45 or 50.
So that's probably why, because I'm not the only one that the mass majority probably looks at that
car. And it's like, man, when the top up, it looks kind of wonky. But when the top's down, they look great.
Well, then like, what are the top peels? Then what, ideally, what if it gets a rip?
Exactly. There's, there's all this. Yeah, there's a whole new element of maintenance that you've
got to add in. In addition to your $20,000, Nikosil motor thing. So if you really want a problem,
go get a cab at like 997 Carrera S. But should be okay for the most part. But it is
the 99, the point of me bringing up this market thing is, because I'm shopping, I'm seeing all
this stuff as a residual of my searches. And I'm gathering a lot of in unintentional information
that I don't want. But I figure I might as well at least share it, because it is shocking to me,
because there's a lot of people that aren't shopping. So there's going to be a lot of people
that see this, if they do go shopping and be sticker shock, because there's a lot of people
that have been in the game long enough, and they're going to go, wait a minute, when did 997
C2Ses start trading at 80 to 100? Do you think it's just a bunch of people too,
giving up on the air-cooled market as well? I mean, it's all a shit thing.
I don't think so. I think it's, I think there's still a very high strong demand for air-cool cars.
I feel like it's what I said earlier, where if you have 80 or 90, and you go, okay, well,
I can go buy a 3.2 Carrera or a really nice hot-rotted SC, or I can go buy a C2S that's faster,
that gives me similar vibes to an air-cooled, even though it's not an air-cooled, I'm not trying to
say it is, but has hydraulic steering, has a great shift, the shifter feels great, and has
good creature comforts. Oh, I can put Apple CarPlay in this car. Grant, you have to mod it
to do that, but it's not that hard to do, or you could do the retrofit Porsche one that they have
and spend big money and do that, and you've got heat that works, and you've got AC that works.
You don't have that air-cooled car. Now, there's some people who don't care about that. They want
those vibes, but there's other people that say, well, I essentially have a percentage of air-cooled
vibes in this car, even though it's not an air-cooled car. It's faster outside of the
Nicosol thing, cheaper to maintain than an air-cooled car, and I have heat, AC,
and my wife probably won't be mad at me, or my partner won't be mad at me to ride in this car,
that she won't smell like oil, and sweaty, and this sucks.
Four votes to suspension, but in the box, and stuff.
Big plethora of aftermarket following. There's a big community that's 997 people, and I mean,
not that there's not with the air-cooled stuff. I mean, it's its own cult. Don't get me wrong.
It's huge, obviously, but when you start cross, if you're shopping just 911s and you're doing money
for money, you start to look at it, especially if you're looking at value. You already know that
SC, I wouldn't say it's capped out. It's going to continue to go up, but
you've got to think, okay, that car is how old, right? We've taken 80 SC, so we're talking what,
46 years old, and it's 80 something thousand. That car is probably not going to be a $300,000
car someday. It's probably approaching its peak. It's probably on a 2% to 3%,
minus some barring air-cooled surge again that we didn't anticipate before that is always possible.
It's almost like a volcano. You never know what's going to show up in a rough. It could happen again.
It's also a base car, which is what we talked about before they got it. They only have so much
ceiling. So that car, what, let's just call it 2% to 3% annually. Maybe that ends up being
like a $110,000 car. I just think there's more upside and people are seeing that
on a value perspective with like a 997. They're like, okay, I'm paying 80 now.
Who knows where the ceiling is in this car? This car could be a 180 car and so new. It's so modern.
It could be a 180 car in 20 years. It could be. We don't know that, or it could be a $100,000 car,
but maybe they're, again, it goes back to what are you chasing? Are you chasing vintage vibes?
Are you chasing kind of vintage vibes, but you want creature comforts? So I think people are
educating themselves and they're going down and taking the turns off the interstate that
work for them for each car. Now, we know people that bought air cool cars and they're, wow,
this isn't what I thought it was going to be. And this thing's slow as hell and it's smelly and it's
this and it's not for me. And that's okay. Yeah. But sometimes people have to buy stuff to figure
that stuff out. I'm just baffled by where this stuff is. Are you shocked by any of the stuff
that I've just told you? With the pricing on dealer's choice, 996, 997, wherever you want,
991, whatever you want to pick. Whatever I'm going to choose. I don't know that I'm shocked,
but I guess it just confirms what we kind of thought. As the needle moves towards the more
modern stuff, because yes, there is an air cool following, but I think even as I was thinking
about the 914, I thought about the long hoods and stuff. The time you've seen a long hood,
you know, recently versus an SC versus others. Everything's starting to shift as it's kind of
harder to maintain or at least in the mindset that there's going to be problems with it or going
to be some kind of maintenance. It seems like it's further and further shifting to something.
Like, well, this makes sense. The 993 makes more sense than this because it's a bit more
modern. And then while the 997 makes sense or 996 makes sense because, again, more modern.
So I think we're just going to see that more and more as we think of the modern,
they're still starting at the vintage era. Who knows? We're going to see once things go.
And as you said that, I started thinking of an X factor that I didn't bring up for air cool cars.
The people who maintain those cars for you, meaning mechanics, those people are drying up too.
So if you live in a place like we're spoiled, we have kind of choices like, and not even just here
specific geographic wise, I'm talking about even the entire like southeastern region of the United
States. But there are places if you are a Porsche enthusiast, we get it. Not everybody lives in
West somewhere. Yeah, in a metropolitan place. Like what if you lived in South Dakota? Like
you got to trailer your car somewhere. And that now is that a factor for you where it's
inconvenient where you're like, yeah, I have a 930 turbo and I love the car, but I can't drive it
because the closest place that maintains it is 450 miles away. And anytime I need to get the
stamp thing serviced, it is a big ordeal for me. So that that turns into like, okay, I'm not buying
that car now, especially if you're bringing it to a rally that somewhere else that's a different,
you know, sea level or something like that. It's got to be so that is that is a factor for I get,
I would bet for some folks where they're kind of like, I'm not near somewhere
that I can pop in and get this car maintained. And they feel like they could take their modern
modern or 960 97 to the dealer or even just your independence where like they might even tell you
like, Hey, I worked at Porsche, like I own my own shop, but I never worked on air cooled stuff.
So I don't feel comfortable working on your car. But if you if you have a water cooled 911,
I'll work on it. So that could that alone can shift people buying certain cars. Because they're
like, Oh, well, I kind of want a vintage one. You're like, where would I get that service? They're
like, Oh, there's a place in Bozeman, like 300 miles west of here. And it's like, shit, dude,
like I get the like is so then your brain starts racing, especially if you're
you don't even have to be a Porsche fanatic, you can just be a car enthusiast to say,
well, what if I'm driving in something catastrophic happens? So then I got to go either buy a trailer
and trailer my own car there, or pay somebody to trailer it there for me. And that and then
all of that starts to turn into a problem. And if you're one of those people who
don't want problems, then you don't do that. So that's a that's an X factor, like especially
if you live in a remote place or a rural place, because you're like, great, I really love these
cars. But I mean, in 300s extreme, but even if you got to go like 100 miles or, you know,
150 just an inconvenience where it's not near basically is a roadblock for you at that point,
as opposed to Oh, 20 miles away, this guy will work on water cooled stuff. Okay, well, then I'll
just go get a GT car, or I'll just go get a 997 turbo, or I'll go get fill in the blank in the
water cooled area, because he'll take care of it. My dad's still kind of that example right now,
though, as he's driving from the panhandle down here, just to get stuck because he trusts people
down here versus and that's another thing once you once you build that relationship with the person
who works on your car, like anybody, you don't want to re establish a new relationship with somebody
because that's difficult to do where you're like, Well, this so and so used to work on my car and
used to do this and I like the way they set my car up and I like the way they did all that and
now I'm taking this new guy and we're kind of feeling each other out and and he's
you don't think he's doing a good job as he should know about exactly like you because you
don't trust them and you're not getting the same kind of level of either a treatment or information
you used to get with your last guy or whoever you were working with before. And it really
if you if you have an experience before it's a real thing because you go somewhere new and you're
like, man, I hate the way they do like anybody else versus they cause twice as much and they
suck twice as much. Like, you know, and like once you do that, you kind of feel that we're just
like that sucks, man, like I'm not getting the same vibes from this dude that I used to get.
It used to work on my car before suck rating the money intake or the same. Yeah, it's just kind of
and then it then you start playing head games with yourself. It's like, is he actually looking
after my car? He's like, did he actually change the oil? He didn't do anything. I know. Did he
actually change the oil? He discharged me. Like, you know, like it's not a good place to be kind
of sucks. Right. Like where you're like, I don't know, man, that guy's kind of shady. You know,
I saw him taking parts off another car and my mind knows it was okay. Yeah, my car is all right.
But yeah, I just thought it was a very, very interesting market report that it was more than
worthy to bring up because I am baffled by the rise of all of those chassis. I mean,
I mean, yeah, you bring up a good point that they're almost across the board,
six bigger cars, 49 11. Yeah. And the modern era and people are happy to pay because
you know what, you know what they do? They either get on the configurator and try to price a new one
and they see, oh, just for me to get a base one with maybe sports chrono and sports exhaust,
I'm all in at 160. Hmm. And then they get on like auto trader or they get on car gurus and they just
go and look at other generations in the same like I was going to buy a career as let me just type
in career as and just run the gamut of all the years and see what's available. Oh, wow. I could
go get a 997 manual. Oh, pretty cool color for a hundred grand. I'm saving money. Even if I spent
my 28 and that's the that's the mindset, right? Like where they're kind of like, I'm saving money
because not only that new car is going to because there is an initial depreciation, especially even
it doesn't matter even if with a 911. So they're like, OK, so I buy this at 160. Let's say I drive
it for a couple years and I and let's say I go back to the dealer to trade it in on a car or
whatever. And they say they're going to take care of me because I bought it from them. You might get
what 120 130 from them. So then you took a 40 to 30 thousand dollar hit when you already know this
other cars depreciated and on the upswing. So like you're not going to take a hit.
That's probably why this is happening, because people again trying to hedge.
It's it's just so expensive for the new stuff and people are not comfortable paying that price.
And I don't blame them because they are outrageously priced.
So that like driving experience like everybody likes to talk about, like you said, it's
a certain level when it is. But again, I was thinking this earlier for the 996 is
and I heard somebody say and I don't know how true it is, but I feel like the 996 is with
suspension and a couple other things is the easiest and closest that you'll get to a GT car
in that model year than than any other. You might get a lot like 90 percent. Yeah, yeah.
I believe that. And it also probably puts people in a situation where let's be honest.
I mean, I can't speak for everybody, but I'm speaking collectively.
Porsche people that want Porsches or Porsche 911s in general,
like they're fairly decent with money. I don't want to say great with money,
but they're fairly decent. So like what I mean by that is they make I'm not talking
about their income level. I'm not talking I'm talking about they're intelligent enough
to extract the most value out of the dollar that they're going to spend,
you know, because they know stuff is expensive and people we know they don't mind paying up,
but they also want to make sure that they're getting the most value for their money. They're
not going to arbitrarily spend $160,000, $170,000 on a car when they think that car is going to
take a $30,000, $40,000 hit or 20 even 20. They don't Porsche people are so spoiled,
especially if you've been like I'm taking zero hits. Like that's how spoiled we are because
the cars we decided to go shoot after they all appreciate. They're like, what do you mean
depreciation dude? Like I don't even know what that is. Like I buy cars that only go up.
So I think that has a part a little bit to do with it too,
especially if you've been in the Porsche world for a long time. Now if you're a new buyer that
kind of really doesn't apply to you because you're probably chasing clout, you're chasing all the
wrong things or chasing different things. I shouldn't say wrong because that's what you're
interested in, whatever, but we are not the same. But I think that's part of it too. I think
people are intelligent enough to say okay well I can go buy a 997 Turbo for $160,000 and it's an
awesome car as modern style power but kind of classic designs and there's upside to this because
you're looking at it financially as you're not looking at it to make momentum. You're not going
to make life changing money for that car but you're looking to not lose money. So if like if
you drove that car for five years and you didn't put a gazillion miles on it and you bought it at
a decent mileage, at a minimum you're going to get what you paid back with it. And I think that's
part of the deal like why this is happening. I think a lot of people are going backwards because
they're like oh these are on the upswing. Okay cool, I know I'm not going to lose money on this.
Yeah and that's what they're getting told by everybody else too. I was like hey have you
seen what's happening and how it's stable this market. And these exact conversations is what
stirs that pot and people are like hey it is stable I like this. Like I'm doing this you know
I'm doing it before they go up. Like I have a chance to actually have equity right in a car
for a change. I'm going to go spend 70 because this career S will be 90 in 10 years whatever.
And I could see the upside on that. I mean if I was a buyer in that situation I would approach
it that way as well. Because that's just smart money. Well you are I mean you are your own case
study. You are doing this thing and you are looking for a deal. Like literally like yeah looking for
that you know between the cracks of like somebody who's asleep at the wheel it's like dude this
guy's just cutting this car loose like done. All right so yeah it's pretty wild. So change subjects
here. I don't know if you saw this this was just kind of an excerpt but I thought it was worth
bringing it up. Do you see this JC9 Carrera GT body kit car. It's not really a body kit it's
like a reimagined basically there's a company out there that's reimagining Carrera GTs.
I have not seen this. Yeah so it kind of looks like a 917 but like a maybe what a modern 917
would look like but they use the Carrera GT to do it. Seems like a I mean but they must be making
their money on a few of them because. Yeah I don't know if it's they're just trying to launch a brand
but I think this is the first one that they made and they're kind of parading it around.
Me personally it's like why would you re like Carrera GTs are already cool like what I don't
think that car needs to be reimagined and I didn't do like a deep dive on it like I don't think they
really breathed on the motor like the body just looks different and I'm sure it's exquisite like
I'm sure there's a lot of body work it goes into it because it doesn't look anything like a Carrera
GT but it definitely has a Carrera GT motor so you're not you're not just sourced it's not like
you're going Porsche doesn't have those on the shelf like you're not just going by in Carrera GT
motors so you're doing this to a Carrera GT so it's kind of like huh what why.
Give yourself a look at this place because if I had a CGT.
Yeah would you pay somebody to do that to that? It doesn't even they don't they need a new decider
like nothing it doesn't even it looks strange right yeah it looks like they made the 917 worse
pretty much yeah and in the CGT at the same time they made it worse. I can't imagine this being very
successful like I mean I know there's people with stupid money they're like way more you know the
moniker of way more money than brains I they will probably sell a couple because I'm sure they've
bamboozled a couple like dum-dums well they might but like there's not that big of a market for them
to continue to I mean what Ray Hall is doing and and Porsche in general they already own that
doing but they're but I think what their spin is is they're changing the body all together so
it's a different looking car with Carrera GT guts but I'm saying why not go to the company in Chicago
that does 917s and throw a CGT motor in. Well I don't think you just find a CGT motor I think
that's the issue but I think what I'm not trying to support them I'm just saying like I think
you're not going to just you're not going to buy a CGT just to take the motor out of it to put in
in a freaking 917 build. You might not. Why why would you just not drive that CGT like I think
that's the issue I like you were saying like I thought the same thing I was like why wouldn't
you just have you know Ray Hall or what's his name in Monterey Bruce Canapa like redo like
re-bought because he's doing it too like repain them. Throwing the Gulf livery. Yeah I was saying
whatever it is a very strange thing that I saw I just thought I don't want to waste a lot of time
on it if you guys have time go look at it I would love to hear what you guys think I think it's a
very odd 2026 Kimballah. All I can think is is somebody's bored and somebody has a lot of money
and started a company after having way too many Blantons with another rich friend to his and say
singers doesn't does this let's step it up and why don't we do this with CGTs like yeah man that
would be sick like we're doing it and then like I'm going to start with mine and it's like totally
just ruined his car basically. I mean it doesn't look homemade it's definitely like professional
it's clear that that's it looks super car-esque but it doesn't but it looks weird because we know what
that the homage is do and so it looks different than that yeah and from it looking so different
because it doesn't even look like a 919 and that's some it looks like they try to use the headlights
for a 919. I just feel like that market is so flooded and that people are so fatigued but seeing
this stuff again it's kind of like who the hell no who cares. Well I'm saying like what would you
have to be at to even make that make sense. I mean it doesn't make sense at any level because now
you've ruined an investment like what so what your goal is to resell that car at like double what you
no there's no way it's not going to happen like if anything you've devalued it
because I feel like people who are buying CGTs want CGTs they don't want something it looks like a
917 that used to be a CGT yeah I don't you're right I don't think them they've ever
been shopping like you know what which just really look like this yeah no I mean that that sounds like
either you had too many joints and and bourbon or one or the other or both and crossfaded out and
like that that's like the birth of like that idea the cross joint yeah I can't even like this thing
myself man um but yeah I just thought it was wonky and it was worth bringing it up so
definitely is wonky speaking of wonky the thing you sent me I didn't think it was wonky but some
people think it's wonky I think what indecent is making a 911 hatchback essentially that thing looks
pretty badass if it looks anything like those renderings I think it'll be do pretty
damn good I think it'd be cool I mean if it does because it's kind of like if you ever wanted a
a civic hatchback without having a civic hatchback yeah and having in the motor in the rear yeah
basically super high performance car that's a hatch yeah it's almost like the better like
Renault 5 turbo yeah similar vibes smaller I got a Ferrari FF or GT4 Lusso vibes but smaller
not v12 obviously not front engine so it doesn't have a long bonnet so basically take a 991
put a hatch on the back more greenhouse yeah I hear yeah I think if we execute it properly
I think it'll look great now if it's executed poorly it'll look awful but I don't think they will
like they they're pretty detail oriented I mean there are European shops so like I feel like
especially with CAD and all the things that with body work and development that exists
nowadays with modern programming it'll probably look pretty close to stock it'll take a while for
that for subject they haven't been doing it for years to take it those body lines the
way they should be I mean AI looks pretty awesome because that's what those are I mean it looks
they look great because they they follow like they didn't try to take away from the car in any way
yeah essentially it's just a hatch it's more of a greenhouse effect and again
I think they're not they're not going to mass produce them because they're not a mass produced
company it's very much the opposite of the 917 thing yeah right I think their goal is to maybe
make 50 of these total so it's it's I don't want to taint Peniferina's name or
um what is another design house that used to be like really popular that people like do like 350
Zagato like they're not like Zagato um so I'm not trying to be blasphemous by comparing them to that
but it's those vibes of taking a car that already exists but taking something that
never was made from factory but was a cool concept that could have been made and basically
doing it unlike you just like said not the 917 thing with the CGT you're not trying to reimagine
something you're like okay hey there was never a hatchback we're not reimagining anything like this
is a 9-11 hatchback yeah it's like if you're Volkswagen kid dreams met in your 9-11 adult dreams
exactly together that's what these will all sell in Europe because all all even the rich kids
grew up with like GTIs and all that stuff starting out so like now all those guys that have big money
if they have a 991 in this cost an extra 100,000 or even 200,000 to do it they'll do it because it
will be unique and it'll be different and if they're only going to sell 50 they will sell all 50 I
guarantee it like the biggest thing will be and I know they know this because they've been in business
because what they're doing those what 991 wide body kits and they look clean they don't look like some
BS so they definitely know how to do body work they'll probably do pretty well with this because
think about 50 cars in a world that's this wealthy that's nothing and long as it looks good it'll do
well and I think it will now the next thing will be pricing like talking about stuff before
that's going to be a hard sell for somebody even if you're wealthy to go oh well we're making
50 of these and they're going to cost $500,000 and you're like all right we better have a monster
power plant in here I don't think they got into what they were doing but if they did these to like
only turbos or turbo s's that kind of would be sick I need to because I just wait well the rendering
had a side side inlet yeah like it was a turbo car the interesting part will be how do you cool
how do you get air to that engine other than just from the side things because in those cars as we
all know there's that back deck lid and that helps cool that engine down when you put that greenhouse
effect in there with that hatch now you've covered essentially covered that up so how are you now
channeling air there maybe they have quarter window inlets or something that's normal the
the gangster thing would be is you do a little bit of like old school homage race car stuff
and put like a little like ram air inlet on the top and funnel that air back down
but you got to integrate that in a proper way where it doesn't look like a warp on the car
yeah but you could do it where it looks sick all the way behind the glass yeah you'd want it to
yeah you'd want it to slope but you know like there's so much like design architecture you
can do nowadays like if they did that ram air thing and they they did it for the full length of the
roof line and then you could put it in the c pillars yeah where the air channeled down through
the c pillars yeah and came in through that roof into the c pillars where it all was like blended
where you wouldn't even see it that dude we should be doing cars
that's what we'll do like i'll just i don't even have anything drawn up i just do my hand gestures
and just right here just all right now do that and i'm like i guarantee there's some rich people
that probably do that where when they want special be stuff designed i mean i'm not saying we're rich
but i'm saying like they could take those design cues and make that stuff still
i don't know i don't have anything else for them do you i guess buy buy something you want to buy
otherwise it's gonna be more expensive the next time yeah i think that's the same i think that's
the same thing we've always been saying don't don't sit on the sidelines because each passing day each
passing year each passing month that you think something's going to go down that's less driving
you're going to be doing that's less experiences you're going to have and you're just going to pay
more money for the same thing you were going to buy anyway so again word of advice just because
we have a pulse on the market again no skin in the game when you buy a used car because we are not
a used car dealership we're not offering you cars i don't have any cars for you to buy and whether you
buy one or not not up to me we're just trying to give you sound advice to because like i said
we're seeing it happen i'm sure you're seeing it happen and if you're not seeing it happen and you
listen to this you don't believe me now you know what's happening well go look go look for yourself
because seeing is believing me i'm not making crap up like a we're not making this up just to have
content yeah i'm i'm totally floored by it still i'm still kind of floored by it i'm still shocked
of how not even the stuff that we talked about i'm still shocked at not how much expensive 991
dot ones and two still are like those cars didn't bottom out like they're supposed to
i'm pissed off about that like this should happen and then it didn't happen really i mean they went
down because they're below their msrp but they didn't keep going down like they they hit this
like little area and then they just stayed there thanks to 92 yeah like overpriced people didn't
like it i mean i feel like that happens a lot though like it's happened in Porsche's work like
generational it's probably the every generation does does a thing so do we think that the 991
dot ones and the twos like whenever the 994 comes out will they will they go down because now the
new ones are here i don't think so though because i think the new ones will be so expensive i think
the new the new factor that didn't used to happen is the the depreciation curve is a lot
smaller than it used to be with the newer cars there used to be a bigger depreciation curve
when the new chassis model came out that's not happening anymore because i think the pricing
of the new chassis is getting so expensive to getting the point where it's almost 200 grand now
yeah it's it's absolutely asinine right where people walk in and they're like hey i want to get a
career t they're like all right cool no zero-spec car um 190 thousand dollars and like what like bro i
can go buy like a three rs like 99s you know a 991 dot 13 rs for that you know like yeah well
this is not a three rs this is the 992 dot two so do you want to pull the trigger because there's
a really long line out the door so what do you want to do you're like i'm not interested
but all right we'll see you guys see you thank you so much for listening to this episode of
p car talk connect with us on instagram at p car talk or online at p car talk dot com
About this episode
Rexy’s Detroit struggles become the episode’s springboard: BOP changes like “They took power out of the car. They put weight into the car.” can punish cars on slow, traffic-heavy street circuits. The hosts connect that to broader racing incentives—“if you're fighting for a championship, you need to run all the races”—and to real-world logistics like sanctioning and shipping. The conversation then pivots to Porsche 911 pricing, where rising “futures based pricing” and IMS/bore-scoring worries reshape what buyers choose, and when.
Before we get into it, a genuine thank you to everyone who listens, supports the show, and keeps this community alive. You know who you are. We do this because we love it, and you make it worth doing. Now let's get into it.
Detroit IMSA: BOP'd Into Irrelevance
The Porsche GT3R at Detroit was so heavily Balance of Performance'd that it was barely a factor, and the prototype entries qualified so far back in such a short enduro format that catching up was a near-impossible ask before the green flag even dropped. But let's be honest with ourselves here: IMSA was on GM's side from the jump. The race is in Detroit, GM's backyard, and anyone paying attention could feel the gravitational pull toward keeping the home team looking good. This isn't new. The frustration with series organizers placating to manufacturers based on geography or politics is real, and it's a recurring stain on what should be a pure competition. When the racing result feels predetermined by the city it's held in, that's a problem worth calling out.
The 911 Market Is Not Coming Back Down
We touched the surface of this last episode when we talked about Mezger-engine GT3s drying up and the 993 price surge, but it's time to go deeper because the numbers are getting genuinely hard to rationalize. 997 Carrera S's: a green manual with 35k miles is asking $108k. Midnight blue, 55k miles, manual, asking $90k. For a Carrera S. Let that sit. 996 Turbos, which we've covered before, are now seeing 95k-mile manual cars asking $90k. The market logic here is that against the backdrop of new Porsche prices, these feel like deals to people entering the hobby. And look, we get it, but that doesn't make the numbers any less wild.
The broader picture is this: if you are chasing a manual 911 of any generation, any configuration, the era of stumbling into a good deal is over. Base 991.1s with 50 to 80k miles are moving at $65k to $80k. Base Carrera, not an S, not a GTS. And before anyone says you can still find a reasonable 996 base 911 for $35k to $40k with 90k miles -- we'd push back hard on that. That is not a bargain. That is a lot of money for a car that will demand attention and investment. The "affordable 911" narrative needs to be retired.
Here's the thing we want to be transparent about: there is zero financial incentive for us to tell you to go buy a car. We don't get a cut. But if you want a manual 911 and you're sitting on the fence, today is genuinely the better bet than tomorrow, because every data point we're seeing says the floor keeps rising regardless of generation. This is not a bubble in the traditional sense. These are driver's cars with a finite supply of desirable manual configurations in a world that stopped producing them. Why do you think this keeps going up? We'd love to hear from the community on that.
What makes this genuinely upsetting, not just analytically frustrating, is that the price appreciation is pricing out exactly the people who should be owning these cars. The passionate ones. The ones who would drive them, maintain them right, and actually care. Instead they end up with people for whom it's a flex or a garage sculpture. That's a gut punch for anyone who's been in this community long enough to remember when that wasn't the case.
JC9 Carrera GT: A Solution Looking for a Problem
The JC9 is essentially a reimagined Carrera GT body with visual cues borrowed from the 917. On paper that sounds compelling, but sitting with it longer brings up some real questions. The Carrera GT doesn't need to be fixed. It is one of the most celebrated analog driver's cars ever made. Slapping a new body on the concept and marketing it to ultra-wealthy buyers who want something exclusive feels like the automotive equivalent of a solution looking for a problem. KISS. Keep it simple. The military drilled that into some of us for good reason, and it applies here. The original formula was right. The more the car world chases bespoke reinventions of icons for nine-figure clientele, the further it drifts from what made those icons matter in the first place. Thoughts on this one? We have mixed feelings and we're not hiding it.
Indecent 911 Hatchback Wagon: Cool Idea or Vaporware?
The renders coming out of Indecent for a custom 911 hatchback/wagon are genuinely striking. They look cool. Full stop. But the question that always follows something like this is whether this is another "put your money where your mouth is" moment, where the concept gets traction on the internet and then quietly disappears when build deposits don't materialize. The 911 community has seen this cycle before. People love the idea of something unconventional until they have to actually commit to it. Is there a real market for a coachbuilt 911 wagon? Maybe. Is the execution going to live up to renders that were made to generate buzz? That's always the harder question. What do you think -- cool and you'd want one, or a stunt?
Outro
That's a wrap on this one. Catch us at pcartalk.com for upcoming events, support the show over at Patreon.com/pcartalk, and find us on social at @pcartalk. As always -- Kimchi Crew: Steve, Leslie, Chris, Ken, Aaron, Matthew, Sean, and Nik.
