The Honda CR-V is a popular SUV. The hosts are using it to show that a car that was much cheaper years ago can cost far more today, partly because the standard features and tech have changed.
MSRP is the starting price on the car’s official sticker from the manufacturer. “Base MSRP” means the price for the simplest version of the car, before extra costs like taxes or dealer add-ons.
Naturally aspirated means the engine doesn’t use a turbo or supercharger to force air in. “2.4 liter” is the engine size, which affects how much air and fuel it can move.
Automatic emergency braking is a safety feature that can brake for you if it thinks you’re about to hit something. It’s meant to reduce crash severity or help avoid the collision.
Wireless charging lets you charge your phone without plugging in a cable, usually by setting it on a pad in the car. It’s a convenience feature that many newer cars include.
Average transaction price is what people are paying in real-world deals. It’s different from the sticker price because it reflects discounts, incentives, and how dealers actually sell cars.
Honda Sensing Suite is Honda’s set of safety/driver-assist features. In this context, the speaker is saying the base car might cost more because these features are being added to every trim.
Adaptive cruise control is like regular cruise control, but it can slow down and speed up to keep a safe distance from the car in front. It’s one of the tech features that can make a “base” car more expensive.
These are car wheels that are 18 inches across, made from metal alloy. Bigger wheels often come with different tires and can be part of the reason a car’s “base” price isn’t as low as it used to be.
Automatic climate control is the system that keeps the cabin at a set temperature for you. Instead of you constantly adjusting knobs, it manages the heating/cooling automatically.
They’re saying the cheapest new cars are getting harder to find. As a result, people who want a low price may end up paying more because the “basic” versions aren’t widely available.
A “base model” is the cheapest version of a car. It usually has fewer features, but it costs less—so taking them away can make it harder to afford a new car.
“Affordability” here means whether regular people can afford to buy a new car. The host is saying the industry talks about it, but doesn’t do enough to make cars cheaper to start with.
The host is saying some car companies invested heavily in EVs too early. If EV sales or pricing didn’t work out the way they expected, it can hurt their finances.
Profit margin is how much money a company keeps from each sale after paying costs. A lower profit margin means they make less profit per car, even if they sell more cars.
Trimflation means car makers quietly make the cheapest version harder to find. They drop lower trims and leave higher, pricier versions as the new “starting point.”
The host is using “haves and have not” to describe a gap in who can afford today’s prices. The cheaper end of the market shrinks while pricier vehicles take over more of the sales mix.
They’re saying that big family SUVs (with three rows) have gotten so expensive that the “budget” version basically disappeared. So people who want that space have to look at other vehicle types or pay more.
“Three rows” means the vehicle has seats in three sections, so it can carry more people—usually up to seven or eight depending on the model. It’s the main reason these SUVs are popular for families.
They’re saying minivans are selling better again after a period where they were losing popularity. One reason is that they cost less than big three-row SUVs with similar features.
Term
stow away
They mean the seats can fold up and disappear into the vehicle so you get more room for luggage or gear. That flexibility is one reason minivans can be more practical than some SUVs.
They mean the market is changing—people are buying different types of vehicles because prices moved. When SUVs cost more, shoppers often switch to something cheaper that still fits their needs.
They’re talking about computer chips inside cars. If there aren’t enough chips, carmakers can’t finish building cars, which can reduce supply and push prices up.
The Honda Odyssey is a family minivan. It’s the kind of vehicle people buy when they need lots of room for passengers, and here it’s brought up while comparing van prices to SUV prices.
The Kia Carnival is a minivan from Kia. In this discussion, it’s mentioned to help explain how minivan prices can be lower than SUVs, which is part of why more people are choosing them.
MSRP is the price listed on the car when it’s new—basically the starting point the manufacturer recommends. They’re using it here to compare how expensive different vans are at the start.
“Reading between the tea leaves” here means interpreting sales and pricing trends to infer what automakers are thinking or planning. The hosts connect van popularity to affordability versus SUVs, suggesting that manufacturers should notice the same signals and respond.
“Monthly payment math” is how the car price and the loan details turn into what you pay each month. Higher interest rates usually make that monthly number bigger.
“Payment shock” means your monthly car bill can jump a lot, often because the loan interest rate changes. Even if the car price didn’t rise much, the payment can still feel much higher.
Auto loan rates are the interest rate you get when you finance a car. If the rate goes up, your monthly payment usually goes up too, even if the car price stays similar.
Loan term length is how many months you have to pay off the car loan. A longer loan can make the monthly payment smaller, but you usually pay more interest overall.
The Toyota RAV4 is a small SUV made for everyday driving, with extra space compared to a sedan. The podcast mentions it because many people want it, so there can be a long wait to buy one. That usually means the supply isn’t keeping up with demand.
LIVE
It's noon here in Ventner City, New Jersey,
and our nation's capital, Washington, D.C.,
and this is Car Edge Live for Thursday, June 25th,
with your host, me, Ray Hangen,
where I always hang right here in my living room,
and Zach hanging out with all his Ironman and Marathon metals
in his office in Washington.
What's going on today, handsome?
Happy June 25th.
Thank you, everyone, for tuning in and spending some time with us.
I am feeling fantastic this morning, Pops,
and I'm excited to spend time with you today.
Before we jump into today's show,
we have some insane data from Edmunds.
I mean, really good stuff that that team put out
that I am so excited to dig into.
Before we head there, we must remind each and every one of you
that back at CarEdge.com,
my dad and I and our incredible team
help tens of thousands of people every month by new and used cars.
charging pad, Honda Sensing Suite for all trims, automatic emergency braking,
lane, keep and adaptive cruise, 18 inch alloy wheels, push,
bun start, automatic climate control.
That's your Delta.
That's your difference over a decade.
You've got a $11,000 average transaction price increase.
Yes.
But the argument would be that you're getting more car for the money.
Well, yeah, I get that.
But what if, what if in an attempt to actually keep vehicles affordable
for a larger percentage of the population?
What if, go back to that previous slide, what if it didn't have, I don't know,
a wireless charging pad, a Honda Sensing Suite for all trims?
What if it didn't have lane keeping and adaptive cruise control?
What if it didn't have 18 inch alloy wheels and automatic climate control?
I mean, what, what could the price of that vehicle be if it was really a base
model so that it could actually be maybe, I don't know, a $33,000 vehicle instead
of a $38,000 vehicle?
So yes, I get that you're, you are, when you buy it today, you are buying
so much more equipment, but it might not be the equipment that you wanted.
It's just happens to be the equipment that's part of the car.
I mean, they sold plenty of 2016 Honda CRVs, the base model.
And, and if they were selling them for $4,000 above MSRP, that would indicate
to my stupid little brain that there was a huge market for that base vehicle.
For sure.
For sure.
But dad, this is the whole story here, which is these manufacturers have increased, excuse
me, the content levels and the price points and the data back from Edmunds continues
to corroborate this $25,000 new vehicles nearly gone.
You asked, I asked you this question earlier, what percentage of new vehicles sold
for under $20,000 in 2025?
Point two percent, like you said, it was 5.5% six years ago under $25,000.
That's 4.7% of new vehicles right now compared to 21% in 2019.
I mean, that's crazy.
That's the one that really, really, really, you know, there are not options.
Like you said, of Honda, you know, saying, OK, we won't put all the bells and whistles
in here instead, we will put the bells and whistles in.
And now, obviously, we have those 30, 40, 50 thousand dollar options instead
of sub 25 thousand dollar options.
Well, part of the problem is, is we lost base models.
Yeah.
And we know that we did the research.
And many of the manufacturers, Honda was one of them that did away with base base models.
And so they increased the content of their next step up and made it your base
model so that, you know, maybe there was a four or $5,000 swing.
But the truth of the matter is, when we find ourselves in a haves versus have not
world, when it comes to being able to buy a vehicle today, the manufacturers
decisions to do away with these base models have made it virtually impossible for
those who find themselves on the have not side of the ledger to get to the have side.
And and it all could be easily addressed by actually offering base models that
people could or would buy if they were available.
It is we can't, as an industry, constantly for the last three years, talk about
affordability, OK, and do nothing about it.
Other than talk about it, other than talk about how we're going to bring out X
number of models by 2030, that'll be below 40 grand.
40 grand isn't the sweet spot for these people.
Yeah.
OK, 30 grand isn't necessarily the sweet spot.
25 grand might be.
And there are ways if the manufacturers, the automakers were willing, there are
ways for them to decontent their vehicles and bring prices down.
I will just cite one example that I am familiar with at at many, you know,
minis became more and more expensive.
You know, you're talking about a small car and suddenly, you know,
base prices are running close to $30,000.
Yeah.
So they came out with Oxford editions, which were decontented vehicles
that were in the low 20s.
Dealers could not keep them in stock.
Well, they didn't make very many of them.
That's that's the conundrum.
Yeah.
But the point is people were willing to buy them because they were at a price
level that people could afford.
So you as as the automaker and I get every one of these automakers is
struggling financially today because of the bad bets they made on the EVs
because they committed too much to EVs too quickly.
And so maybe they don't find themselves at least they don't think
they can find themselves in a position to decontent cars,
produce lower profit margin cars for them, but produce more affordable cars
so that the new car market could actually grow because there could be
more people actually in it for sure.
And that's that's the part that my simple little brain has a hard time
wrapping itself for you.
We're still seeing the impact of what happened during the pandemic.
You mentioned it a moment ago back in during the pandemic in 2023.
Honda actually got rid of for a period of time their entry level options.
So you can see here, this is from September of 2022.
And the story here was very simple.
I mean, look at this data Honda is focusing on trims with higher margins.
So the base LX and value-minded special edition trims have been cast aside
with the decidedly mid-range EX now positioned as the CRV's entry point.
This takes the base price up to $32,355, including a nearly $1,250 freight
charge that works out to $1,800 more year over year.
Moving up the line up the EXL trim now starts at $35,000 up $1,800.
So you know, Honda went through this process during the pandemic
and many other automakers did too of trimflation,
getting rid of major level options and we've seen it now.
Yeah, they all did.
And then we've seen it now.
I mean, show up obviously in the data again, that chart from Edmunds is like,
holy cow, it's incredible the visualization that they created there
because it just shows you everything has moved out to the right,
meaning it's more expensive and there's more share of more expensive vehicles.
Nowhere do we see this more clearly dead than the pickup truck and SUV market.
So I'm going to pull this data up on the screen.
I'm just going to read this because it is astounding.
If the bottom of the market has thinned out, the top has exploded.
You come on this show all the time and you talk about how there's the haves and
the have not.
So here's Edmunds saying the same thing.
And no segment tells the story more clearly than the vehicles Americans
excuse me love most trucks and SUVs.
Large SUVs were expensive in 2019 with nearly 50 and
percent of them selling above $60,000.
By 2025, that figure had climbed to 95 percent.
Think about that for a second.
I mean, they say right here, the affordable large SUV no longer exists.
Dad, you want a large SUV?
We're talking three rows.
You're going to have to spend more than 60,000.
That's not a typo.
It's not 50 or 40, $60,000, which is one of the reasons why many vans are making
a comeback because they're $10,000 to $20,000 less than those SUVs.
They might not look as cool as those SUVs.
They're more versatile than those SUVs because in many cases, seats either
stow away or can be removed completely.
So we see a slight market adjustment to where we see increases in minivan sales.
That was a market that had been declining.
And it would seem to me that the only reason that the minivan sales are going
up is because of that price gap between that minivan and a comparably equipped larger SUV.
Yeah, I think you're spot on.
Absolutely spot on.
Can I say something about 2022 and 2023?
There you go.
We realize that, yes, there was a limited number of chips that were
available to the manufacturers at that time.
And so they decided to utilize those chips to maximize their profits and build
the higher profit margin vehicles because of that shortage.
Get all that.
It made sense at the time.
I don't know how to break it to anybody, but that chip shortage doesn't exist today.
And so if they wanted to, they could get back to producing those lower profit margin,
less expensive vehicles, expanding the market to more people and allow more people to have
the freedom of moving around the country in an affordable brand new car.
And at this point, it is just a corporate decision that they're not going to do it.
But they will talk about it, but they're not going to do it.
Here's a perfect example.
I went to the Car Edge Car Search Mazda CX-90.
Look at these results.
Look at the price points we're talking about here.
I mean, this is, quite frankly, exciting in some ways because this is below the
Edmunds threshold here of a $60,000 large SUV, but not by much.
We're talking Mazda's, this one in particular, had an original MSRP of $59,485.
It's been sitting for 180 grand.
Here's your 60 grand one right here.
These are perfect examples.
And again, look how long they've been sitting.
These are perfect examples of automakers decisions that, again, the Edmunds data just
corroborates and shows as like, okay, it's having an impact.
So look up, say, a key at Carnival.
Okay.
And let's see what those price points are or Honda Odyssey's.
No, let's do the Carnival.
That's a great idea.
Yeah.
And then maybe we can begin to understand why many vans are growing in popularity.
I mean, it's fascinating just on first blush.
We've got anything ranging from original MSRP of $51,595 to $40,980, $41,000.
Definitely seeing lower price points so far, but also some of them get quite
expensive. Holy cow, dad, this one, the prestige.
We're talking about a nearly $60,000 key, a minivan.
That's crazy.
That is crazy, but the point is, is that the vast majority of them are in the lower
40s or mid 40s, which is, which is 10 to 15, maybe as much as $20,000 below those
SUVs.
And, and it would seem to me that if manufacturers are seeing an increase in
sales in those vehicles, that they, I would hope are equally as bright as I am
when it comes to reading between the tea leaves.
And the reason for that growth is because those are more affordable than
the more expensive SUVs.
So if they can read between the tea leaves like we can, and I'm pretty
sure they can, then why don't they do something about, I mean, I would love to
be able to sit down with, with one of the CEOs of, of one of these large
automakers and simply ask them that question.
And now I'm sure that I would get a corporate speak answer that doesn't
really answer it, that'll dance around it.
But I mean, if, if, if, if an average person of average intelligence can see it,
well, why can't well educated Harvard business degree people see it?
Somebody, somebody got to explain that to me because I just don't understand it.
Okay.
Back to the data, folks.
I'm sorry.
Full size trucks, same story there.
2019, 8% sold over $60,000, now more than half or nearly half sell above
$60,000.
Heavy duty trucks, it's the same story.
Back in 2019, 49% were over $60,000 today.
It's 77% luxury segment.
They're in a different conversation entirely.
74% of luxury midsize SUVs sold above $60,000 in 2025, more than double the
36% share for 2019, which are large cars and SUVs as well.
Three out of every four sell for more than $100,000.
Let that sink in for a second.
75% of luxury large cars and large SUVs sell for over $100,000.
And look at this.
I don't want to sound like an old person, but my first house only cost me like $50,000 a house.
Yeah, I hear you.
Had three bedrooms, had a den, had a kitchen, had a living room, multi-level.
Why should a luxury SUV or large sedan cost over $100,000?
It's a flipping car.
36% of all new vehicles sold for more than $50,000 in 2025.
That compares to 15%.
In 2019, more than one in five new vehicles now sell for over $60,000 up from 7%.
Six years ago, and vehicles priced $70,000 or more went from 3.6% of market share to 12% of market share now.
So yeah, things have changed significantly.
And this Edmunds data obviously tells a very compelling and clear story of what's happening.
Now, the other side of this is this has forced more and more shoppers into the used car market, which has forced up used car prices.
So that's what's really alarming about what we see here in the Edmunds data is we've made it so we, you know,
automakers have made it so unaffordable, acquire new cars that they're forcing people into the used car market at a time where we all know
there's a shortage of quality used cars and that's driving up the price of used cars.
So there's a real connection here between the new and used car market and the Edmunds data points paints a very clear picture.
It has never been more connected.
And one of the reasons for that connection was the 10 to 15 million new cars globally that had been scheduled to be built that never were built,
which means they were never sold, which means they were 10 to 15 million new vehicles globally that should have been manufactured,
should have been on the road, should have been coming back as trade ins and they're not.
And so this shortage of quality used cars will continue on for several more years.
And the connection has never been stronger or greater than it is right now.
And because we have seen pre-owned prices trying almost to get back to pandemic levels when they were really out of it.
I mean, we've seen them give back some of the game, but we're coming back, though.
Yeah, so am I.
OK, you know, and here's the sad reality.
You know, when you come back after many, many years, you're not half as good as you think you are and you're not nearly half as good as you were.
And so, coming back, what's coming back?
You know, we talk about it every day, $15,000 underused cars.
Yeah, I want to jump on one of them 10 to 12 year old pieces of poo that have 100,000 miles on it that I now have to finance for for 60 months so that I can afford it.
Yeah, that's just what I want to do.
So there's an interesting yin and yang to this story.
So Edmunds put out that data, right?
Cox Automotive has their quarterly, excuse me, biannual review.
Yes.
I think I have a slide in here that I'm so curious to get your take.
And then, dad, we're going to go to the chat.
They say monthly payment math income adjusted affordability has hardly moved.
The payment shock is real, but it's not the car.
So let's go through this before you react.
They're saying about one week change in weeks of income needed to buy a new vehicle from May of 2016 to May of 2026.
Went from 33.7 weeks worth of income to 34.9 weeks worth of income.
The average monthly payment over that time has gone up $282 from $471.
The data they're using says it's $753.
Now, payments have increased 60%, but incomes have increased 53%.
And they're saying that the 320 basis point increase in auto loan rates from 6.35% to 9.53%
is the real culprit for why we have an affordability crisis, rates, not price.
So what do you make this?
This suggests that there actually isn't an affordability crisis.
It doesn't actually cost that much more to buy a new car today than it did back then.
And payments, dad, which obviously we're not factoring in loan term length into that right now,
but whatever, we'll set that aside for a second.
It's actually not that much more unaffordable today to buy a car than it was back then,
and actually point the finger at rates.
That's the thing.
That's the reason why cars are unaffordable.
Unaffordable.
What do you make of that slide after we just looked at the Edmunds data?
It should be politicians sitting in front of a congressional hearing not giving an answer
to a question.
I can't find any more gobbledygook than that.
Please share with me how the average person's income has gone up 53% in the last 10 years.
I've made some wrong, but I don't think that's true.
I just don't take away the 320 basis points in the auto loans,
and then tell me financing the average amount that gets financed today,
even at that lower interest rate, if the payment is really affordable for people.
Oh, and let's not remember, because it's convenient not to, that automobile insurance
rates have gone up 40% or so in the last few years.
Maintenance costs to maintain your vehicle have probably gone up 30% to 40% in the last few years.
Parts for the maintenance require have gone up.
The purpose is just new car prices right now, and they make a compelling argument that it's
actually affordable. It hasn't changed. It's such a BS argument because you have to take in
into consideration all the costs involved in owning a car. For goodness sakes, we've been
talking about this for six years. It's not just the price of the car, and it's not just your car
payment as to whether or not it's affordable. Okay, here's automobile insurance, there's
maintenance, there's fuel. Okay, all those things are interconnected, so there is no way to just
pick out the price of the car and the interest rates that have gone up and say, oh no, they're
just as affordable today as they were then. That is such BS. That is just picking and choosing,
picking and choosing what it is that you want to... It's like David Copperfield. It's all
sleight of hand. Look over here instead of over here. It's for goodness sake. I mean,
how much crap, how much BS are we really supposed to put up with from major corporations, from
leaders in our car? I mean, for goodness sake, why can't we just deal with reality and truth
just one time, one time? I'll be good now. For the record, I see a lot of comments about
go off, dad, Zach loves to get dad worked up, low hanging fruit, you just say, this is his
exercise. Okay, so I want to be very clear. It is. This is actually in a medical setting,
is to benefit my dad's longevity. Yeah. This is to get his heart rate up.
And it does. We have to come here to the chat pops from son of John,
2750. We appreciate the kind contributions. We've got another one. I feel like there needs
to be a market reset. General consumers should stop buying cars altogether for a period to let
the industry know that the prices have become too inflated. We had another kind contribution here.
Same person. There are too many trucks on the road in my honest personal opinion, I think.
The reason prices are inflated is due to consumer spending for high prices. This is what is
happening that is going to create a US economic issue. We've been talking about this for a long,
long time. And the debt aspect of this is really scary as well. So we generally agree with you
that there needs to be a market reset. But in this same breath, earlier this week,
we had a Toyota dealer on and he's got a four month waitlist to sell RAV4s. So it's like,
there's enough people out there and in specific brands where it doesn't seem like a market reset
is going to happen anytime soon. And then for the vast majority of automakers and other brands,
it seems like a reset is due to happen eventually. I don't know why I live long enough for eventually.
You will, Dad, because you're going to keep getting your exercise on the show.
No, I get that. It just seems to me that it's all conversation and no action.
The Edmunds data would suggest that what we're seeing is that vehicle prices have gotten out of
control. And that's what was so alarming about what we saw today from MallCoff. Thank you for
this MallCoff. I wish we had a weekly Carriage Whiskey Night episode where we just listened
to Pop's Rage totally unfiltered for 30 minutes about market and life. This could be your reality.
We can make that happen. All the good folks out there could drink the whiskey. I could not.
Have you stopped drinking altogether?
Define altogether. I haven't drank alcohol in over three years. Have you drank alcohol?
I went for a follow-up with my doctor yesterday. He said,
would you drink? I said, well, I can't say I don't drink, but I think it would be safe to say that
over the course of the year that maybe I consume eight to 10 beers a year. Do I drink? I don't
know. I've got two bottles of whiskey sitting in my little bar area that haven't been touched.
No, I drink. Sure. Do I drink? Not really, no.
Folks, if we can help you out with anything, check it out back at CarEdge.com. A couple
things to call out. Meet some of the real customers that we've been able to help recently.
It's always exciting. Learn more about our services and how we work with our community,
and most importantly, get a free consultation call with our team.
Are we the company that built AI agents that will shop for cars on your behalf? Yes.
Do we still have an incredible team of people that you can pick up the phone and talk to you
right now to learn more about how we work with you? Absolutely. Do we offer an incredible
concierge, white glove buying service with an awesome team of car buying experts?
Yes, we do. We've got some AI. cool tech. We've got a whole breakdown here,
and we also have six years of helping folks nationwide with an incredible group of people.
Please, please, please learn more about the team back at CarEdge.com. We appreciate everyone that
supports us, this channel, the business that we've built, and we'll be back with a Friday episode.
Tomorrow is Q&A, so we're expecting a more intimate community to join us.
Email me questions in advance. Please put in the subject line Friday Live Show.
Send over whatever questions you have. We'll pull them up tomorrow on the show. We'll be
in the chat, obviously. Yes, thanks, John. We do feel needed and grateful for what we do.
So please put them in the chat tomorrow as well. Otherwise,
we'll look forward to seeing you here at noon Eastern, 9 a.m. Pacific time.
Absolutely. By the way, have a great rest of your day, young man.
As the plan pops, enjoy the afternoon too. See you guys tomorrow. Yep.
About this episode
New-car affordability gets dissected with fresh Edmunds data, starting with how vehicles are increasingly concentrated in higher MSRP price buckets—leaving tiny shares in the $15,000–$20,000 range. The hosts connect that “sticker shock” to trimflation, decontented base models, and even the shift from large SUVs to minivans. They also challenge simple affordability narratives by arguing payment shock is driven by higher auto loan rates, then broaden the lens to insurance and maintenance. CarEdge plugs tools and AI agents for shopping.
Today on CarEdge Live, Ray and Zach discuss the latest data from Edmunds. Tune in to learn more. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com
for information about our collection and use of personal data for
advertising.
