The Ultra Luxury Car Market With Bloomberg Intelligence's Michael Dean

Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. I'm Hannah Elliott and

I'm Matt Miller.

This is Hot Pursuit.

Coming up on today's podcast Our Friend and Yours and Bloomberg's top automotive analyst, Michael Dean joins us to tell us about his new report.

Yeah.

I'm really looking forward to it because you know a lot of auto analyst auto analysts on the street, for example, that work for banks or even sometimes here at Bloomberg Intelligence, they're not really gear heads, Like they don't really care data guys, the data guys, which is good. Like if

you're an investor, yes, and if you rely on analysis to help you make money, you don't care if they have like an old nine to twenty eight in the garage, right.

But for us, Michael, does we do care? Yes, and

he does care. Yeah, he gets it. I'm looking forward

to that. Plus, he always has like the inside scoop

he's always given me. I call him before I have

big CEO interviews.

It's like a cheat code.

Yes exactly. He tells me like what to ask. He

like he's been in the Ferrari factory and seen like the batteries and noticed that the writing on the boxes was Chinese, and you know he does this stuff, which is helpful. Yeah, what else do we have to talk about?

I went down to the Rolls Royce private office yesterday and had launch with Jerry Spond, their King of Media, which was fantastic. So we can just touch, just touch

on that a little bit. And I don't know if

it matters, but it's the second time I've driven it, and you've driven it before too. I'm in the Kia

EV nine. Yeah, and for all that, Like, we spend

so much time talking about Rolls Royce and Ferrari and Portia and Aston Martin and all these very expensive vehicles, and I think, you know, probably the majority of our audience they have to have at least one car that's just like normal. I'm a regular person, you know, and

this is a fantastic vehicle for that. So especially if

you're like moving family or gear like it's large and roomy, but also it's just like a great appliance.

I think totally agree. What did the girls think of it?

They love it, you know, because they any three to row.

They're into because they can run around. They think it's

really fun to go in the back seat and then to climb over the seats and yeah, it's as long as I can play Frozen and they can move around the thing, they love it, So I'm in that. Plus

I went to the New York Auto Show. Actually I

went to the New York International Automotive Show, which I know car shows are less and less important, but I went with Christina Raffini, who is the anchor of our new program, Bloomberg This weekend new television program Bloomberg This Weekend.

How was that?

It was really fun? I mean not, you know, from

a journalistic standpoint, not that interesting or but as someone who just loves to look at cars, like, there's still a lot of cars there, you know.

What did you see that you liked? There?

So you know, again from from a journalistic perspective, there wasn't a ton of new or special.

Heart what did your heart see?

I mean the same thing I saw last year, like the Mustang GTD, the one in the in the white livery with the red and blue stripes. I just like

to look at it, you know. And then the corvettes.

I saw, you know, an orange Z six. Is it

anything new or incredibly special? Maybe not, but I love

looking at it. I love to open the door. I

love the door handle mechanisms on the Corvette. The scene

corvettes I saw. Manhattan Motor Cars has a stand where

I saw this Konigzeg and I got to spend a hell of a lot of time.

Do you remember which one it was?

It was? Uh, it was something that means queen. It

was like Regina or Rigiera or something it means crean aparent. Yes, yes,

freaking cool. I mean I'd never really looked into Koonigzeg

that much.

Christian Coengzeg is like a star.

Yeah, I'm legit.

All the influencer dudes are obsessed with.

It's on my pariff, you know. But it's like it's

up in Sweden. So like I'm down with Pegani because

it's in the Motor Valley and I'm there often enough that I've done two tours of the Pegani factory, but I don't go to Sweden very much. What a cool car,

I mean, just amazing the trickery you can do with that opening up the trunks and the and the bonnet at the same time. You have to open the bonnet

to fill up the car, and that's what they call whatever they call the back of the car. It's very fast, obviously,

like a thousand and some horsepower. It has three forty

five wheels on the back, so like well over a foot in width. But the coolest thing is, which I

didn't know, you probably know, they have a ghost as their logo. And I asked the guy why, and he said,

because when they started out, they needed a place to put a factory as they were growing, and they took over a Swedish like air force base. And this Swedish

air Force base, it was like on the down low, and they were testing all their planes at night. So

the locals would say, like, we hear these planes, but we can't see them, so they would call them like the Ghost.

That's cool flyers.

And then this this like battalion became known as the Ghost, this Air Force battalion. And so now they've just since

they were in that that battalion's old headquarters, they've taken on the Ghost is their logo. And this Kunigzeg salesman

had actually the ghost logo tattooed on his ball head.

Yeah that doesn't surprise me. I mean, honestly, that logo

often reminds me of the Wu Tang sign, but I never knew the story behind it. It's pretty cool, right,

really cool to know, Yeah.

Five million dollar cars. Five million dollar cars, that's.

Like yeah, I mean it's more and more more normalized.

Then Hyundai has a really cool Well, Hyundai has a concept and cool in that it's a three to row body on frame suv. You know how much I love them.

I'm not sure how cool in terms of the way it looks. It's like an H two.

Well, how does it look compared to the Armada.

I love the Armada. They had a couple of them there.

I still would prefer it to almost any other body on frame suv. This thing does not look nearly as good.

But the idea that they're going to enter that market I think is really cool. And they're investing some high

billion dollar sum to start producing trucks eventually in the United States of America. Because I was talking to the

CEO of Honda, Jose Munos, he was in the office last week. So that's cool that they're going to get in.

They're going to make pickup trucks and they're going to make big body on frame vehicles. And then Genesis had

the Magma, the the wing back concept there, which is like their RS six station wagon shooting braake fighter.

Oll that actually looked kind of cool.

It looks amazing.

Again, I'm not a wagon person, but this reminds me.

And then we'll get to Michael Dean. But did you

see that email from Tony who said he laughed really hard at my reaction to the Armada and he made this point. He says, Matt, isn't it interesting that you

are willing to overlook the styling of this car but you won't buy a car with Friday Egg headlights? Did

you say that that I thought was really funny? Thanks, Tony, Yes, that.

Was a good Actually, I guess I still have to right back to Tony and I'm going to And also I think at least next week we should do a mail bag because makes so much.

Totally agree, yes, next week.

All right, Let's get to our interview with Bloomberg autos analyst based out of London, Michael Dean.

The reason I wanted to bring Michael on, first of all, is because I love just talking with him about the industry.

He's like my secret source, secret not so secret, because he knows he gets it and he knows everything, and I was so happy. You know, we're I'm doing this

piece about ultra luxury cars and coach building and that sort of thing. And Michael coincidentally but maybe not, has

this fabulous report coming out about exactly what we're talking about now, which is, you know, companies developing experiences for their owners like this Attilie that Matt just reference, but in the bigger picture, you know, going ultra high end.

He has everybody doing that because I know Ferrari does some of it too, right, Michael.

Yes, So we're talking about limited editions. Yeah, so yeah,

the fat it's a step up from the Daytona. They're

going to make seven one hundred and ninety nine of them at three point six million euros apiece, so as well as being a friend plastic car, it's hugely profitable for them.

But even beyond even beyond that, right because remember I talked to you in Benedetto. Vina was about to come

on and we were talking about even beyond the limited edition.

There's like something that only I don't know Lewis Hamilton can get, or like jay Z and Beyonce where they say, like Benedetto, I want a Ferrari with a stick shift, and they don't make one even limited editions, but he can do a one off. They call it like a

perto or something.

Yeah, I mean they certainly do bespoke cars as doing most manufacturers now, even Portia with their Sonde vunch availability.

So yeah, it's available, but they don't talk to US analysts much about it.

What's the kind of this report that is the report out yet or it's launching tomorrow.

So it's on the terminal, so then the actual physical reports will be out next week. Yeah.

What is this sort of headline top note that you guys are discovered or founder are really pushing with this new research.

Yeah, it's just really looking at the valuation of some of the car companies, and Ferrari in particular. It became

the most valuable European car company last year and you've got to remember only produces folding thousand cars and it was at one point worth double that of Volkstagen, which produces almost ten million. And the key thing here it's

just really we don't see a huge amount of growth in ultra luxury demand, but the way that these companies are going to increase their profitability and probably their valuations is by having more limited editions, more specials, more personalization, and just use their pricing power to increase their margins out to twenty and thirty.

And this solves the problem of basically needing to generate more revenue or profits without actually making more cars, because of course, if you're a high and automaker, you don't you don't want a lot of cars out there, right.

Yes, scarcity is key and the ultimate aim for these listed companies is to be valued like Hemez, and for that you need to have about a forty five percent margin.

Ferrari's doing about thirty eight thirty nine percent, the same as Lamborghini. I would say Rolls Royce is doing something similar,

So they can just squeeze that gap a little more.

Then they can enhance their valuations on the stock markets even more.

By the way, unimportant side question, because I hear not just you, but all of the executives and investors always shooting for Airmez. Does any car maker just do a

joint venture with Arimez, Like, is there a Burkin Ferrari.

I'm sure that they're doing things together, but yeah, that would be a good idea. I mean Ferrari's going down

its own fashion line now, so there's certainly collaborations to be had.

You know what. And I will say parenthetically, I noticed

that and RMS Monaco cell they're selling an Hermez toolkit owned by Fangio.

I saw that. I saw that so cool.

So I mean it's been done kind of in the past.

That's a good point. That's a good point. I just like,

because I was at Rolls Royce, I was looking at all the different you know, things you could have done in the interior, and the different leathers and the different designs I saw. By the way, Hannah the Michael Fuchs

like his specific color and they have a piece of his specific leather that no one else is allowed to use.

Besides my do that he's smart to do that.

But but I just you know, some of their interior designs remind me of like what to some would be really ugly, like nineteen seventies, you know, purse materials or couch upholstery. And I love it. I love the look.

But I can't imagine why they wouldn't have one with like the Ames you know, logo or you know, some horsey theme. Really cool stuff at that rule I was

private office.

Michael, I want to ask you and Matt I want to go back to the private office. But in this

report specifically, you kind of mentioned Ferrari and Lamborghini and Rolls Royce as like doing very well in this area.

But then you also mentioned I'm very curious about Aston Martin and Bentley because I know they also are sort of trying to play in this arena. How are those

two brands positioning themselves and doing compared to like the leader, which is probably Ferrari or maybe a Rolls Royce.

Yeah, Aston Martin and Bentley both great brands. I love

Aston Martin's new cars. The issue they have is they

had high exposure to China. The Chinese market for ultra

luxury goods has fallen significantly along with the Italian names.

The English brands were selling eight nine thousand cars a few years ago. That's dropped to four thousand we think

this year, and that makes a big difference. These are

highly profitable casts for them, so that's been an issue with them also the huge investment and electrification, but particularly for Ashton Martin, which doesn't have a big parent company, it's been taking a lot of out of their cash and resources. So yeah, that those two things have been

weighing on them.

I also love the new Aston Martin cars just so, and I'm sure Hannah does too, So we're on the same page, the same right, even though they're even though they're stock, even though they're stock, plummets to almost nothing, even though they're f one team like doesn't even compete in races, like they don't even not only do they not finish, they don't even qualify, and then like they're dead.

I saw somebody was telling me the other data hedge fund that he was looking at Aston Martin dead at seventy five cents and doesn't want to touch it with a ten foot pole.

Yeah, they've got a huge amount of debt. That's a problem.

They're not generating cash. But say the Valhalla, you know,

that's one car that's doing really well. You know, it's

a limited edition, sells about eight hundred thousand pounds and they're going to make five hundred of them this year, so that should improve their profitability. But unfortunately the Advantage

isn't doing as well as it should. The DBX isn't

the SUV, and the dB twelve now is is getting old.

And the Continental GT is a much better car.

We'll be right back. This is hopper suit, don't go anywhere.

So I have this theory about Bentley that it's kind of following the Porsche blueprint. We have seen a lot

of Porsia uh power move like manpower. Human power moved

to Bentley, including of course Frank Frank Wallacer ahead of ahead of Bentley. But I see Bentley doing things that

Porsche did years ago. Are you seeing that too, Michael?

Is this year since that as Bentley is trying to move up mentioned the Continental GT, we've got the super sports that it's sort of climbing its way and also following this blueprint that Porsche developed.

Yeah, we can talk about limited edition and specials for the ultra luxury names, but Porsche was the first in terms of really taking advantage of high end derivatives. And

I always use the example of the Porsche nine to eleven turbos. So it costs well, it's list price now

in Germany's about two hundred and seventy one thousand euros.

The base version is one hundred and thirty. Now we

all know that it doesn't cost another one hundred and forty thousand euros to produce this car, and it probably doesn't cost twenty five percent of that amount. So these

cars are hugely profitable. And that's what other car companies

have aimed to do, have higher end derivatives of their main cars and sell them with huge margins. And they've

been very successful at that. Porsche and Bentley's doing the

same as you say, with Bentley Continental Speed.

By the way, I looked so a pair to not the name of their one off program Ferrari, that was like an open top La Ferrari that they had back in the day. The Ferrari one off program is called

Tailor Made. They each have special names for their ultra

high end like Whew, Moliner, the well, the Lamborghini program is called ad personam Rolls. Royce has just Bespoke, McLaren

has Special Operations Moliner. Of course, you're right, Uh, Hannah,

that's Bentley Aston Martin is Q. You're right about that.

And and Michael you mentioned Sondern, Yeah, yeah, Bugatti is Surmezura for made to measure, Maserati has fewer Siri, Mercedes bend manufacture like they all have these special like it's beyond just exclusive manufacture, right, it's like another level higher.

Yeah, and they're trying to expand expand these operations Porsche in particular with sunder Bunch. If you want your own

personalized kaw especially made car, you have to wait two or three years. So yeah, that that's something that they're

working on.

By the way, dude, that's as long as you wait for a Singer. Why doesn't Portia just buy Singer.

I think they've got enough let your cars at the moment.

I didn't know if you weren't saying anything because you know something that they're planning on buying Singer and you don't want to like break an embargo or it's a still a silly like idea.

Yeah, it's it's it's all there.

Definitely, it's there rumblings I've heard here.

Here's a question you you are headed to the Beijing Auto Show soon, Michael, what is the appetite in China for this type of extremely limited edition, extremely bespoke or even coach built car. Is there appetite? Uh? There?

I think it's very difficult at the moment. So the

Chinese certainly don't want to openly display their wealth. And

then also you have punitive taxes on very expensive cars.

You have taris now on vehicles with engines over two point five liters. So although these cars are very expensive,

they become very very expensive. So we don't know for

sure what the appetite is, but the appetite for just generally ultra luxury cars is diminishing, and as I mentioned, you know, demand for them is halved over the past three or four years.

And we also know that Ferrari of course, is going to be debuting their Luce electric car later this spring.

That seems to be a risk for the company, you know, because it seems like core Ferrari buyers love that engine.

They love of course, Matt, are you making a face?

I'm just they love the V twelve. So my point

is they're risking they're risking losing this emotional appeal by putting out an ev right.

I mean, where's the where's the romance in a battery, dude?

That's the problem.

That train has left the station. That horse is so

far out of the barn. Ferrari is a rolling computer.

People who want romance aren't buying new Ferraris.

I was waiting for it. I was watching you just

wind up. It's ready to go.

I means it's a ball of electronics. It's a chip

maker ceo running that car company.

That is not true. I recommend you drive a Ferrari

before you comment.

This is why they don't let me drive Ferrari's right, because I mean, there's just nothing left in terms of mechanical authenticity.

Have you been in the DoD Childry?

No? I have NOTO, No, I haven't.

I recommend you drive it.

Is the clutch heavy?

Back to me?

Is the clutch heavy in.

That one stop it stop, it doesn't matter, doesn't matter, I won't hear it.

You'd get on see transmissions at some point, point, dude, it's not that you know what even even Hannah, we've been talking to Barry about a friend of his who is driving.

I think it's a five seven five across the country and it has the F one transmission. I don't mind

a cool automatic gearbox. I love the like agricultural heavy

clunk of the of the Lamborghini evented or it's great now.

But but what I what I do mind is the screens.

And if if I look at even these super high end car makers Lamborghini, Rolls, Royce, I saw a Kunigzeg, a five million dollar Kunegzeg at the car show the other day, and it had these horribly tacky like Cassio screens in it. And I was thinking, if I were

a super billionaire and I were going out to make my own car, I would demand that it has physical gauges with needles that really work. I mean, who wants

a Nintendo screen in this five million dollar car?

That's why you need a Bentley Continental GT because these screens swivel. Yes, so you can have.

That is a sensible answer. And I would like the

record to show Matt Miller that last week you were going to sell your entire home and home and garage to get the Nissan Armada. Yes, and you're telling me

that a Ferrari doesn't have emotion, but you're in love with the Armada.

But it's a very different use case, right, the Ferrari you want as a rolling piece of art. You want

the Ferrari for the chink that it makes when you shift, when you move the gated shifter.

Right.

That's obviously not what I expect from a Nissan Armada family hauler. It's not what I expect from a Kia

at EV nine by the way, this week, I'm driving a ki At EV nine, and I think it is a fantastic appliance. Everything works well, like a really expensive refrigerator.

But it's not something that I open the garage door and just like salivate at and I can't wait to, you know, move the three meals. And you know, I

don't even like electric seats. By the way, in a car,

that's like something I want as an enthusiast, like a weekend.

I want the lever under me so I can just pick it up and slide it back with a clunk. Yeah,

I don't want any of that stuff. And I don't

know what.

Look.

I get why Ferrari makes this new fangled, you know, high end tech like V six triple turbocharger, battery, hybrid stuff.

I get that car, but why not also make something that's analog, that's true, that's real. I mean, Hannah, you're

the one who defines luxury by you know, the the authenticity of the materials used. And I think you could

say the same thing about the transmission and the gauges and the handbreak. For Christ's sake, I want a handbreak

that I can pull.

You could still pull a handbreak. It's just not on

a long steel rod.

You just you know, Michael, what's your Michael, you're the guest.

We want to know your take, and I don't know.

You're free to jump in, feel free to just just.

For you, Mats. So then you BMW M three and

M five. The now a class of battery electric vehicle versions.

They will have pedals and they will mimic gear changes, and I'm sure if you ask them that they're put a pretend handbrake on there as well, so I know it's not the same. If you speak to the designers,

they so enthusiastic and say, these electric cars now drive like you know, internal combustion engine, manual geared car. So

they're trying to they're trying to make a difference.

I understand the need for those things. And there are

some electric cars that I really love. I mentioned the

EV nine and it's more of a grocery getter. But

I also I love my big pickup trucks with an electric battery, like the Hummer, the GMC Hummer. But what's

your take on this stuff? Because I know you love

You're not just a car analyst. You also love to drive,

right and I see you're always picking up the latest toy, but you must also appreciate like the old school stuff.

Yes, so you know I have it. Well, our family

has an electric BMWIX and it's a nice car. I

won't be replaced it with a fully electric car. I'm

going to get a plug in hybrid. But I have

a pustion nine to eight five point four liter in the garage and the Sun's just started coming out in London, so I'm going to be taking it out this weekend and it's going to put a massive smile on my face. So,

which is what soure? Many cars can do that.

And to get back to my point on this is the electric car is a risk for Ferrari.

Ultimately it is, but it could be an opportunity. Depends

on where they price it, okay, and if they only accept consumer demand and they don't try and push it.

Where When you say depending on how they price it, are you saying they should make it like more on the affordable side or more?

I think I think it should be their most expensive full production model, so above the testa Rossa.

And what's and what's your strategy behind that?

Well, they've already expensed all the investment to go fully electric, if they can price it at a position that gives them a similar margin to their combustion engine vehicles. And

I think if they price it at half a million auros or above, then they could actually be margin a creative and because you don't have scale effects with luxury carmakers that you do with volume car makers, it's not really to do with the volume. It's all about the pricing. Obviously,

they need to sell you a good few hundred, but I'm not saying they should sell thousands.

Okay, got it?

And then what we knew buyers you know who wouldn't buy Ferrari unless it was fully electric?

Oh really?

Really?

Yeah? Maybe yeah, probably in California.

Dozensure California play in California. I'm shocked that you So

you're saying this car could bring conquest people into Ferrari.

I'm shore certain luxury buyers wouldn't buy a V twelve.

Yeah that makes sense. I mean, there's a lot of

people who want to buy a Ferrari because it signals how wealthy they are. There are a lot of people

probably who want to buy a Ferrari because they like the design and to whom the powertrain doesn't matter. There

are a lot of enthusiasts who probably love the EV powertrain.

It is a I mean, some EV cars are super fun to drive, They're fast, the torque is amazing. So

I can imagine all of those things attracting new buyers.

And they've suddenly concentrated on the interior design with the loache.

We haven't seen what we've seen bits of it.

Safa sure design Apple chief.

Oh it's John See.

Now do you like it? Matt?

I'm not saying that I don't like it. I'm just

like you always say, they're different tools for different jobs, right, I mean completely. I don't have a problem with Ferrari

making rolling computers at all. I appreciate these alliances, but

I think they should also still, you know, stick to their knitting. I do what they're famous for, you know,

make these fire breathing twelve cylinder manual transmission cars. And

I think Rolls Royce also should you know. I want

to see the white enamel dials with the platinum needles, like actual luxury rather than technology. And I think a

lot of these car makers are just getting too far away from it. I suspect because it's cheaper, Michael, I

suspect they go to you know, electric buttons for handbrakes and screens rather than dials because it's cheaper to do.

Is that why Portia you know, destroyed the nine to eleven.

Possibly, but what you're seeing for the next generation of vehicles, they're starting to bring those buttons back. For sure.

I like I I I'm.

Kidding this morning.

I'm kidding, by the way. I love I love the

design of the nine nine two. Forever they had the

flared rear wheel wells and it and the front looked a little bit pinched, and now they have, you know, brought it to the front as well, So I think, I mean, I think it's beautiful and obviously if I drive it, I would I would pay a lot of money to drive a nine to nine two. It's it's funny.

I don't know if i'd rather have If they were offering me a free nine nine three or a free nine nine two, I don't really know which one I would take. I do, It's tough choice, but it would

have to be the career tee because I want, I do want to interface with the car more than just paddles.

Okay, I'm gonna stay on this Ferrari track for a minute because the other thing I want to ask about is you say the EV is an opportunity Ferrari, and I think that's an interesting contrast to Lamborghini that has basically said we're not going to make EV's for as long as possible. They they've kind of reversed their their

target of making something purely electric, and now they're saying, no, we're very happy to not make EV's. Is that risk too?

They seem to be sort of the polar opposite. One's

taking a risk making an EV, the others taking a risking we're not going to make an EV. Is that

an accurate reading on that, Michael Well?

I think Lamborghini understands its customer base. So yes, hey,

luxury buyers don't really want particularly Lamborghini buyers don't want a fully battery electric vehicle. They have hybrids. It's largely

symbolic for Lamborghini, even for Ferrari. You know, ten to

fourteen miles, but you've got to remember to recharge that battery otherwise that's an expensive mistake after a couple of years.

I love the revert, but that's one of my favorite Rose Royce.

Rose Royce last week doll back on their target to become fully electric by the end of this decade, so they too accept that the majority of their customers want a V twelve.

Thanks for listening, We will be right back. This is

hot pursuit.

So at the car show. There's a car show in

Manhattan right now at the Javit Center, and it's a big retail event, you know, but I still like to go because I love to see all these cars and everything from the Nissans and the Kias, to the Fords and the Cheves to the you know, they have Miller or Manhattan Motor Cars. Is there Brian Miller's thing. And

there's some Lamborghini's too. The Temorarrio looks so cool and

I've never driven the Temorai or the rev Walto, but I can't wait to get behind the wheel of those two.

Are those successful? Michael is Lamborghini doing well?

Lamborghini is doing so well. So in this introm yeah,

twenty twenty five when they were changing over from the Hurricane, the Euros sold almost eight thousand units. So initially there.

That's the worst one, dude, Come on, that's the best CV on the market today. Yeah, I will say that

period for me. The Armada you can have the fine deal.

Dude, you know what? So yeah, go on, so sorry.

It was doing super well without the Tamario. Now that's

introduced this year, their soves are going to go up another twenty percent or so, so that's going to be very successful. The river Alto is very successful, and the

Urus they just can't make enough of them. So Lamborghini

is doing extremely well.

Yeah, I think they can make enough of the Urus.

One time I talk to Winkleman, I'm like, so another record, another year of you know records.

Yeah, it's like okay, By the way, what do you think Michael, you know, as an analyst, like of him as an operator because he has had such an amazing career.

He's such a nice guy. He's so relaxed. Yeah, we

love him. I think he's the perfect head for a

luxury car business in the.

Who do you rate the highest of all the auto execs around? Who's done? The Who's done? Who gets naplus?

Even though you say he's a tech guy, I think has done a great job at Ferrari. Just look at

the chef price to evaluation.

Yeah, yeah, he's crushing. He's an awesome guy. He's an

awesome interview as well.

It's a nice guy.

Yeah, he is. He is. And obviously the reason I

feel like I can pick on Ferrari and Portia is because they're kings of the hill, right, It's I think it's okay. I'm punching up, you know, but I want

to ask your take also on the broader car industry, because I was talking with with with Jerry also totally cool dude. We went and had after we went to

the private office at Rolls Royce, we went and had lunch in the rooftop terrace of the restoration Hardware, which doesn't sound as cool as it is. I mean it's

really cool.

It is a really beautiful space.

You've been there.

I mean it's weird. It looks like a hotel.

Yeah, it's amazing.

It's odd.

But he brought up a really interesting point because he's had a great career starting off starting off with Renault and Exactly and then Nissan, and so he worked before he climbed the heights of the ultimate luxury company at Rolls Royce, he worked in the sort of Oi POLLOI of every day Speaks French, yes, and lived in Tokyo.

But he made a great point that this is one of the few industries that has so many people with so much passion and so much capital chasing like four and five percent margins. I mean, it's unbelievable if you

go away from Ferrari and Arimez, the razor thin margins that the mass market car makers get, and yet we all care so much about the products.

Yeah, that's that's the key thing. Even in investment research

equity research, if I put out, say report in a company, you've got to show the products. Otherwise you're just won't

realize or understand how successful a particular car will be.

So yeah, the product's all important. That's why attending the

car shows are so important as well.

I wish the car shows were still what they once were, Hannah, me too.

I would like I would actually like to go to the Beijing Show. I've never been to that one. Do

you what are you going to be focusing on when you're there? What's your bigs like? I want to see something.

So first of all, Volksfagen have a capital markets day, so it's going to see how they're doing in China.

Their new China for China Strategy, We're going to see their new products. So they've partnered with the likes of

psych and they have better tech for their cars, a better cost space. So it's ready to see if these

cars are going to be successful against you know, the newer brands that are coming through in the region. But

also I was at Shanghai last year and what was interesting is how busy the stands of byd or Le Motors or Jaomi are and how empty the Audi stand was.

BMW was quite busy. Porsche was very very busy, but

they're not selling too many cars over there. But yeah,

just just to see the new products that are coming through, because some of them look amazing. A lot of them

look like Porsches. They have all the bells and whistles

and they cost twenty thousand dollars.

Wrong t door sports cars. Yeah, I say, I thought

the Chinese don't like.

Coops Kayenne look alikes.

Are Chinese cars starting to look more like Porsche's or is the Porsche starting to look more like a Chinese car?

Well, definitely, the Chinese cars are looking more like the old Kayenne. If you look at the new Kayenne, it's

certainly got some a Chinese field twitch. But I love

the Nyukai and Electric. What a great car. Not to

sixty and two point five seconds, that's just sheer power for a vehicle that weighs over three tons. Isn't that

I haven't dridpen it yet?

Isn't that less meaningful these days? Michael? I mean I'll

never forget driving friends F three fifty five and it was like zero to sixty and eight seconds. But I

still would rather have that than something that's going zero to sixty and two.

I'd still like zero to sixty and two. Will have

the ability to do that as long as it can corner.

By the way, Audi had also say no cars at the New York International Auto Show. I mean they had

like a couple and a notably no RS five. Like

that car has made the biggest splash. It's the one

everybody wants to see, and they don't even bring it to New York City, the most important city in the whole world.

The problem is car shows as now and they cost a little bit of money, so out more social media to get the message out.

They get a bigger splash, and they do have things.

The thing that COVID taught automakers in the industry is they don't have to go buy any weird schedule. They

can create their own event and do their own launch and do their own debut whenever they want, according to their schedule. They don't have to feel like they need

to be at a car show anymore. You know, had

the biggest stand things coming.

The biggest stand was Kia Hyundai Genesis. I mean they

had so many I think they had more than the Volkswagen group in terms of floor space. And then they

had really cool stuff there. It's the first time I've

seen the Ionic five and like gotten to get in it and play around with it, the five N. And

then they had this Hyundai Boulder which looks like the love child of a Ford Bronco and Genus, and a GMC like Hummer or really like a an H two.

And then they had the Magma cars like they had the wing back, the shooting brake concept and like really cool stuff. They're just the Koreans are knocking it out

of the park.

Well, best car show now.

I was just gonna say the Koreans are the only ones there though, That's why it seems like they are.

You know, what's the best Car Show now, so Hannah will know this as well.

But the Munich Car Show, so they have all their stands in the middle of the city, historic, none of these bland convention center facilities, and it's so nice and you can go throughout the city.

Yes, it's really the best. It's the best, and it's

conceived in a modern, fresh way that eliminates being in a convention center walking on that carpet for eight hours a day. And we all used to do that, which

is I remember those days. It's very dehydrating.

I love those days though, you know, like the first day it's a full suit and tie, the second day you get to wear jeans, and the third day.

Those executives, hey, I mean they're like caged animals back there.

They truly hate it. I meant this inane the way

they were.

Hannah, you know what I think. And I'd love to

get your take on this to Michael before we got to go stroning out of time. But Hannah and I

last year went to Lamar and to me, it was like the Davos of carmakers, Like every major automotive executive was there, and now they're all participating as well, like Ford is going to be and GM is going to be in it, Hyundai is. Jose Munos was with me

the other day said Hundai is going to be in WC as well. Like everyone's joining this, and the LAMA

seems to be like the main gathering point for all of them. If you want to as an analyst or

we as a journalist want to interview the biggest names in automotive, like, that's the place to be.

I thought I had a good joke, but you two, you have the best jokes.

You should come to Miami, Michael. Speaking of motorsport, We're

going to be in Miami at the F one Race.

Wait, there's motorsport at the F one race.

Stop it, I can wow. Yeah, I mean it's it's

not Lemon because Matt, you're totally right. That is like

the Davos of the car world in a way. But

motorsport in general, I think is possibly it's kind of taking over some of the pie that auto shows used to have, which is there are places that you need to be and be seen in.

Yeah, everyone wants to be an F one. There's only

so many teams, so that's trickling.

Down, not max for staffing.

The rest of the motorsports.

Yeah, the racers don't want to be in F one.

It's more for gamers don't want to be there, but everyone else.

More for gamers, there's entire strategy. You got the pig,

you got hybrid strategy, got all these strategies. You can't

drive very fast, you know, so lame, so lame. You

watch Motor GP, Michael, I don't. You should have WATCHEDEF one.

If you care about racing, you should watch Moto GP.

That's where you see actual like wheel to wheel. That's

where you see real battles and people who aren't concerned about like how much they've charged their iPhone, but it's like actually going as fast as they can ten tenths every part of the track.

And do you do track days?

Yeah? I do track days when whenever I can. Yeah,

I'm very slow.

You know, better be saved than relative.

Dude. Thank you so much for joining us. We love

your research.

We're so grateful you rely on it greatly.

Yes, yeah, one hundred percent, So really appreciate your time.

Thanks for having me.

That does it for this week's show. Remember to follow

and subscribe to Hot Pursuit on Apple, Spotify, and anywhere else.

You listen. You can also send us your comments. Email

us at hot Pursuit at bloomberg dot net, and you can check out my collins and stories on bloomberg dot com and the Bloomberg Business App. You can also watch

Matt's TV show every morning on Bloomberg Tv. Go there

for car reviews, events and stories that you won't find anywhere else. Find it all at bloomberg dot com. Slash

Pursuits slash Autos. I'm Hannah Elliott, along with Matt Miller,

will be in your podcast feed again next week

The Ultra Luxury Car Market With Bloomberg Intelligence's Michael Dean

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concept car

experiences for their owners

bespoke cars

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Ferrari

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electrification

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fully electric vs combustion margin parity

margin vs volume (scale effects)

electric buttons for handbrakes and screens

EV (electric vehicle)

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