This is How Consumer Reports Tests Cars

Hello and welcome to the Truth about Cars podcast. I am Tim Healy, the managing editor, and today

we're talking about how Consumer Reports test cars intriguing new Cadillacs and more. Alex

and Isaac from Consumer Reports hops on to tell us how the outlet tests and how to

new Cadillacs and the Volvo EX30 fared in testing. T-Tech contributor Matthew Guy and

I discuss box ratchet wrenches and we dive deep into our NASCAR drivers spin so darn much.

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eBay subsidiary. If you like what you hear on the Truth about Cars podcast, please go ahead

and leave us a review. And you can also find us online at t-tech.com is t-t-a-c dot com or the

truth about cars all spelled out dot com. We are your home for car reviews, car news,

opinions, and so so much more. Here on the Truth about Cars podcast, we are always

talking about the stuff that we use in our homes, in our cars, on our cars, tools,

cleaning products, cleaning supplies, that sort of thing. And we're going to be talking about a

tool today, a very common one with Matthew Guy, a t-tech contributor. Matthew, how are you doing

today? Hi, pretty good. How are you doing? I'm doing well. So this, we are talking about

what you call box ratchet wrenches. Did I get that right? Yeah. And I know a lot of

gear heads, we use different terms for the same tools, you know? Yeah. And also your Canadian

American. So we've got that slang difference going as well. I promise not to add too many

use to it. I already I already chop a lot of your use in your copy as it is. Absolutely.

So I guess what I'm talking about to use as global terms as I can is a wrench set that

would have the typical crescent on one end, you know, just U shaped crescent. And then on

the other end, it would be just a complete circle, right? So that it would go all the way over

the fastener that you're trying to tighten or remove. And I call those box end because, you

know, they're completely enclosed like a box. Sure. And some people have other terms for them as

well. Yeah, okay. So with these being a normal toolkit, like, even though I don't own a car

currently, and don't do I don't wrench on test cars, because they're not my cars, I do

have in my utility closet in my small little condo two, two boxes of tools that are meant for

putting together furniture, fixing things that break around the house, and of course could be

used on a car if necessary. Right. Would I have one of these in that set?

Probably, especially with the, especially with the sets that come with, you know,

all of these different pieces, right? So I mean, it might not come with a socket set,

but it probably would come with a general tool set for sure. But the variant of these

wrenches that I want to focus on is a cool craftsman set that I picked up off eBay. And

it has a ratcheting function in that box and and it's really, really handy. I wasn't

completely sold on them until I got them. But they've turned it to be a super, super help.

Because with either, you know, the the open ended wrench or the box end of the wrench,

once you turn, you know, that wrench, however far you can, you might be working in an enclosed space

or there's just a whole point of wrenches. Exactly, right? You need more leverage or anything like

that. The ratchet part, the ratcheting part of these tools are a lifesaver for just speeding

up the process. And I find them to be really good for getting into some tight spots where the

clearance isn't great in front of the bolt. And I can't fit a, you know, a big normal ratchet that

we've talked about on the on our podcast in the past. So, right, let them out of them too. They

were easily doubled the price. The one I got, they were $62.99 American. And it came with

the came in one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, I'm just counting them here,

came with 16 different sizes, which was absolutely just basically what I needed. And

I bought them about the metric ones, but you can also get the standard sizes too,

from the same, from the same brand. So I would absolutely recommend these or any sort of ratcheting

box type wrenches. I gravitate towards brand names just because it's what I know and I've

been bitten, especially with these ratcheting type ones, I've got cheap ratchets in the past

and the gearing and the teeth inside just wasn't of good quality. They would either, you

know, I would try to put too much torque on them and they would strip. And of course, that leads to

bad words and skin knuckles and that type of stuff. And then your tool is broken too. So,

I do try to stick to brand names for this particular type of tool, at least.

That seems to be a theme when it comes to wrenches and sockets on this on this podcast. It seems

like every time you talk about that kind of tool, you recommend, and I agree with you,

I'm not pushing back at all, I recommend brand names. And I think this is one of those things

where a little more money up front saves you money and trouble and headache get on the line.

And so, you know, I have brand name stuff. I have Craftsman, I think, which is,

okay, they're probably better brands, but Craftsman is known. I don't think anyone thinks

Craftsman's cheap or poor quality. I mean, there might be some partisans who prefer

a competitor to think that, but I think in general, Craftsman is well respected.

And I think, you know, as long as you buy a respected name brand, you should be okay.

I agree. And when you're looking at these different tools, some of them will have,

you know, really good stats in terms of what's in there. And I've noticed that like 72 tooth is

a pretty good number to try and tooth meaning the number of gears that are inside the ratchet,

not the ones that you can see on the outside, but what is inside the mechanism. So

looking for that might might be a bit of advice, you know, if someone is just getting into

wrenching on their cars. And this is a really affordable way to try to, to try to build up

your toolbox. There's another set that I have that I've had for a long, long time. And the

reason why I chose to get another set as well, I kept this other one in my box,

is that they're just a little bit offset. So if you look at them, they kind of look like,

I don't know, kind of look like a, kind of look like an escalator, right? There's got

a flat part on the bottom and then it goes up probably about 20 degrees and then the

top, each head is offset by about 15 or 20 degrees. And it's useful. But I do find that the straight

ones are probably the ones I reach for first, whether that's out of habit or not, but they

do seem to work a little bit better in a lot of situations. Okay, cool. Yeah. So is there

anything else we should talk about? And this is kind of a straightforward stuff we use segment.

So is there anything else that we should go into? I mean, obviously you get these

wrenches off eBay motors, I'm sure, but anything else that we haven't talked about?

No, not really other than, you know, by something that, like you said, is going to last you for a

few years. And don't be afraid also to just check out some ones that are a bit unique. I have seen,

but have not used the Crescent ones that have a ratcheting action in them. I think that will

be kind of cool to try. And ones that you can also turn 90 degrees, right? So the head of the,

some of the ones that I have are angled, permanently angled at 20 degrees, but you

can angle some of some of the other ones manually up to 90 degrees. And I think that might be a

big help to some of our listeners too, if they're trying to work their way into a very tight spot. So

check out a lot of the different options that are out there and try to find a set of

these wrenches that are best for the type of job that, you know, you're going to be doing.

And of course, you can find on eBay motors. Absolutely. So yeah, so let's go ahead and

and wrap this, this story, the excuse me story, wrap the segment on the truth about cars

podcast. Thank you, Matthew. Thank you, Tim.

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Dealer Services LLC in eBay subsidiary. On today's Truth About Cars podcast, we are talking

Alex Nizik from Consumer Reports. He is the Associate Director of

Auto Testing Development. Did I get that right, Alex? That's a mouthful. That is correct. It's

pretty long. Yeah, yeah. So we're talking about a few things today. We're going to start with kind

of how Consumer Reports does its testing because it's a little bit different than most of the

way than most of the rest of the automotive journalism industry. And then we will get

into a few cars you guys are driven lately that I have not driven. I don't know if

anyone at TTAC has. So I wanted to pick your brain about a couple cars and more importantly,

the bigger picture when it comes to those cars. Sure. The Volvo EX90 and two Cadillacs,

I want to say, I believe you said the Optique and the VISTIQ. Yeah, absolutely. Yep.

Yeah, so let's start with how you do your testing over at Consumer Reports. So

a lot of our listeners probably know, but for those who don't, can you walk us through it

and then I'll kind of bounce back how different it is from how everyone else does it.

Yeah, of course. I love talking about this, but one of the things that really makes

CR different as a whole and certainly our automotive testing division is that

first and foremost, we're a nonprofit organization. So, you know, we're really

dedicated to our mission, which is to provide a fair marketplace for consumers, you know, really

to put it broadly, equip people with all the information that they need to make

some of these larger purchases in their life. And cars, of course, are one of those things,

right? And so when it comes to the car testing, what makes us different more specifically is we

are buying all of these test cars, you know, ourselves and quite literally myself or

some of the folks here at CR, we kind of share this responsibility. So we'll go out once the car

is on sale. We will buy a mainstream version of that car, right? So not necessarily the

base trim, not necessarily the most loaded, fully optioned version. We're, you know, trying to get

the one that is going to be the most representative of what the average person shopping for a particular

vehicle or model is going to get. So we go out to the dealership, we purchase it. That way,

we're not getting anything that's, you know, potentially been augmented or prepared in a

special way or anything like that. It also protects a little bit against that too. So

so that actually means that we are, you know, not necessarily the first ones out with our information

because we're not testing press cars. We will get press cars just so that we can get an early

taste or experience on a certain vehicle. But we won't do any formal testing until it's on a

purchased one that we went out and bought ourselves. So we'll do that. And yeah, then,

you know, we take in that car, we put about 2000 miles on it, just rotating it through

all the engineering staff and testing staff. And you know, that's driving it around our facility,

which I'll get to in a moment. But that's also just taking it home, go into the grocery store,

go into work, all these different things, right? Putting your family in, seeing what they comment

on. So we're just collecting all of this, you know, early insights into the car. And then

once we break it in, so to speak, we do the formal testing, which takes place at our facility

here in Colchester, Connecticut. And we have our own test track here, which is amazing.

You are even remotely into cars having a, you know, essentially drag strip and then road course in

your backyard is, I don't mean to brag, but it's pretty, pretty awesome. But really just lets us

do controlled testing and yeah, really take that vehicle throughout. We have about 50 plus

different tests, some out on the road, some on the highways, for example. But then a bunch

of tests here at our facility as well. So goes through that whole process. And then, yeah,

if you go on to CR.org, you'll see we have ratings for all these cars, all the individual tests,

and they roll up into a road test score for that vehicle. And then we'll incorporate other things

like owner satisfaction and reliability. Reliability is huge for us. So we get that from

our members. So every year, we are surveying CR members and basically asking them what types

of problems they had with their vehicles over the last year. And, you know, big problems

are treated more severely in our scoring system than minor things. So let's say, you know,

you had a major engine issue versus a paint and trim issue, those things aren't held with equal weight,

powertrain, much larger of a bummer if you have something go wrong there for sure. So yeah, so

you have, excuse me, protest, which is derived from all of that testing and on track driving,

I mentioned, then you have reliability, owner satisfaction, and then we incorporate safety

as well as, you know, certain safety features we are expecting and pushing for to be standard.

And then that basically all comes together to form what we call an overall score,

which you'll see on that car. And then if that overall score is within a certain threshold

for that vehicle in its particular category, it'll get a CR recommended badge. And those are,

you know, the basically top or best in class vehicles within a certain category.

So that's, that's it in a nutshell, but a lot of a lot of work and process to go into ultimately

those numbers and ratings that come out at the end. Yeah, and you don't you don't crash test

of course though, right? No, we do. Yeah, no, that's a good, a good question. No, we do not

do crash testing. So there are certain sources where we'll rely on partnerships or other,

you know, organizations, information, IHS, or, you know, Insurance Institute,

Highway Safety is another one where we'll pull crash testing data, for example.

No, since we are a nonprofit, when we buy these cars, we are selling them later, you know,

keeping for about a year or two. But we need to recoup some of those costs so we do not crash them.

Makes sense. Yeah. And so just to give our listeners, people in the curtain,

every, every, obviously, you guys, you just went really in detail on how consumer reports

does it. And we want to spend some time on a few other things. So we won't get too deep into

this. But every outlet does things differently. The so-called buff books or car drivers own

tracks, they do instrumented testing. Do you guys do instrumented testing zero to 60?

If you said that I missed it. Yes, we do. Yep. Yeah, among other things too. But yes,

there is instrumented testing. If you said that I apologize, I may have missed that. But

yeah, so a lot of the buff books will do that kind of thing. They'll either rent a

track. I don't know if they all have their own facilities. They may just rent a drag strip

or a private track like a gingerman in Michigan, that sort of thing. Right. For those of us at T-TAC

and a lot of automotive journalists, we don't have that access to those kind of facilities.

The resources involved are pretty intense. So a lot of us just drive cars the way, this is

how I drive most cars, the way that a normal person would. That being said, if I have a

sport of your car, I do have a certain, I will not say where they are because a police

presence is already heavy as it is. But there are some public roads in the Chicago area that

I will take a sport of your car too if the weather permits me, as well as some interchanges

off the freeway that make for some really good cornering tests. Excuse me. That being said,

most of the cars that I test, I drive the way everyone else does. Although my driving is a

little different because I live in the city. So it's a little bit slower, a little more stop and

go than if I lived when I did live in the suburbs in the past. And that's a little bit

different type of driving, a little more, a little higher speeds, a little less,

a little less time, right, or a little more time between braking and between stop lights,

a little more distracted stop lights. But so just for our listeners' sake, I don't get the

chance to own a car like you guys at Consumer Reports and we get our cars,

myself and those at T-TEC who are contributors who do get access to the press fleets,

typically a week long loan. And then also we have what we call, you know, press launches

which we fly to and the automaker hosts us. And of course our listeners know we disclose

the considerations given to us and we get a chance to drive the car for typically 60 to 100 miles

in a given day and I might get to drive more than one type of a car. And as you said, Alex,

you guys don't do press cars because you're looking for cars that are off the lot and not

especially made. My understanding is that that automakers can't really rig a test car because

it would require too much work on the assembly line. But that being said, a lot of press cars

are pre-production, which skews things a little. And then also a lot of press cars are top trim

levels, not what the most popular trim level is. And this is something that myself and a lot of

other journalists have pushed back on automakers and said, hey, please put the mid trim in the

fleet. Please put the base model in the fleet. And it does happen, right? Yeah, it does happen

a lot. It's not completely unheard of. But yeah, just we're trying to maintain that independence

and kind of neutral unbiased standpoint. Yeah, and so are we. And we do try to stay neutral. I do

realize we get considerations by being flown to an event. I do my best to compartmentalize,

and I don't think about the hotel or the meals or the fact that somebody else paid for it.

Because if it was not being paid for by an automaker, it'd be paid for by my company. So

either way, it's not coming out of my pocket. And then I also don't think about when we get

a loan. I don't think about Oh, this is a free new car. I don't think about that way. I just think

about the car and how it drives. Now the problem with with testing on our level that you guys

can kind of can kind of adjust for a compensate for especially the longer term. And I did work

at a publication that did have longer term test cars that they did. They were loaned

before six months to a year. They were not bought. They were loaned. Okay. This

publication no longer it still exists, but it's down to just a few people now. It's much smaller

than it used to be. And I know other publications will buy long term vehicles, but we'll accept

press loans for short term cars. So it's done a little differently depending on the size of your

outlet and the location of your outlet. But the one advantage consumer reports I think has

and some of your competitors like cars.com had this advantage of a t-tech and something I

wish we could change that there's just not physically possible is that if I have a problem

with the car, I can't tell if that problem is representative of the car or just unique to that

unit sample size of one. So it breaks. If it's not, you know, if it's a if it's not my fault,

if it's something that, you know, obviously sometimes we have issues that are self-inflicted,

you know, occasionally scrape a wheel parking or something like that, which is right. I admit

to it and I take the take the necessary shame. But if that happens, but if say if I'm driving

a car and the infotainment just goes away after that, I'll test cars. I might make mention of

the review at the same time that maybe only specific to that one unit. So I can't I can't

ding a car for that. But yeah, Alex, I appreciate the look into how Consumer Reports does its

testing. But I wanted to, before we run out of time, talk about three vehicles you've driven

recently and will segue from how you test to what you found when you tested these vehicles.

So during our pre-show prep, it was mentioned to me that the Volvo EX90 didn't do well. And then I

also really wanted to talk to you about the Cadillac, Optique and VISTIQ, because those are

important vehicles for Cadillac. And no one at TTAC, to my knowledge, has had the chance to

drive one yet. Okay. So let's start with the Volvo. Yeah, the Volvo, you know, is really

interesting. So we're actually still in the process of testing, excuse me, the EX90.

So it's still working through the formal testing process that I mentioned. But

we put those 2000 miles on it. We've been in it quite a bit. We've had some issues where we've

had to actually send the car back to the dealer for a few updates and fixes and things like that.

So, you know, what Volvo is trying to do here is really kind of rewrite what they've

done as far as EVs up into this point, right? So far, we've seen things, you know, if you

pull stars one thing, but let's look at, for instance, the C40, right? They kind of took the

XC40 platform, which is an internal combustion car or a hybrid, and they turned it into an EV,

right? Which is potentially good in terms of saving some money and things like that and

potentially speed to market with an EV in a segment that's really dynamic and changing

really quickly. So they needed to get some product there. But ultimately, when you do

something like that, the vehicles, at least from what we've seen, tend to be a little bit

compromised, right? You may be, because you're converting a platform, you don't get the range,

you don't get the charging and so on and so forth. So the EX90 and by extension to the EX30,

which were also in the process of testing. So that's the smaller one. These are, you know,

new platforms are at least updated to be electric first and new battery technology

and motors and kind of really them putting their best foot forward in terms of this EV technology.

And I'll be honest, where we didn't see the issues necessarily with what makes it an EV, right?

The batteries and the motors and the inverters and all that stuff, pretty well done. It's a

lot of the other stuff that we start seeing issues with because they're really trying to

rewrite all the software and make this more of a software defined experience, right? We're

hearing this buzzword all the time or phrase software defined vehicles and that's really what

they're trying to do here. And yeah, from our experience, not without its issues, it had to

go back a few times. It wouldn't recognize the charger at one point. So it wasn't necessarily a

hardware fault where it wouldn't charge, but it was just something in the software not

allowing it to charge. A lot of infotainment related issues you mentioned earlier,

infotainment system going out. This was happening routinely on our car and things like that. So

we were just having issues and then they also are trying to, and we see this a lot with EVs in

general, inject all of the latest and greatest technology into it, right? And it starts to become,

especially if you're doing this for the first time, some issues, right? Maybe Tesla's got

some of these things down because they've been at it for a decent while now, but

when you're doing the pop-out door handles and the key card access and the no start button,

all of these things are opportunities for issues. And we started to see that with this Volvo,

you know, the place, the key card and like this very, very specific place on the door handle,

which is not the spot that's marked, for example, to get it to pop out. So you're just like

kind of left a little bit confused when you're just trying to get into the car.

And unfortunately, at least as of when we were going through this process, you couldn't

just use your phone as a key, right? That's one of these kind of technologies, right? Okay,

they ship it with a key card instead of a fob. But like a Tesla, it's supposed to be used

with your phone, right? But even that was causing issues and wouldn't unlock the vehicle on

approach, for example, things like that. So yeah, but, you know, beyond that, it's like

the hardware is here, right? So it's a well-sized three row SUV, comfortable seats,

decent driving dynamics, tons of power, like most EVs have range, even though we haven't range

tested it yet, which we do do on the highway, but range seems pretty competitive. So I think,

yeah, where we're seeing a lot of these issues and the the X30 was really no different

is on the software side. So hopefully, you know, they'll iterate on that software, but

the the EX90 was delayed a few times, right? So it does give the impression when you're in this car

and experiencing it for the first time. And if you know that, you're thinking, okay, they

they couldn't keep delaying this, they had to get something out there, right? Because they invested

and they got to start seeing some kind of return on this. So maybe they pushed out the door

before that software was really polished to the point where most people would probably

expect. Does this speak to any larger issues with Volvo and a brand that has been known for

safety and is trying to be one of the automakers that's at the forefront of EVs? Or is this this

or is this just a case of one particular model not being designed particularly well?

Well, I think, you know, let's see where it goes. But if you think about the EX90 and the 30

together and the 30 is actually a little bit worse for this because it has no

driver's display, they're really taking this Tesla style approach where it's just one screen in

the center. But what, you know, I don't want to go as far as to say that it's unsafe, but without a

doubt, these systems are pretty distracting in these two cars. Because, you know, just if you

start playing around these menus and all the systems and you're trying to access features

while you're driving, it is very, very distracting, which is just taking your eyes off the road.

And in the EX30 specifically, you're taking them off the road and putting them towards the

center, you know, part of the vehicle. So yeah, so it does kind of go against that safety first

mindset, right? Just by removing that simplicity and injecting,

you know, it looks minimalistic, sure. But when you're actually interacting with it,

it is not something that's easy or simple. You could draw the conclusion that that's

not the safest approach. Yeah, yeah. And I'm sure that the engineers,

when they built the car probably thought it was fine, but this is why we exist. It's not just to

tell consumers what to buy or what our professional opinion on what to buy, but also automakers do

pay attention to consumer reports and T-TEC and car and driver and the drive and gelopting.

And everyone in between, they pay attention to, I'm sure there's not many newspaper writers

left out there, but there's still a newspaper auto section in Podunk, Nebraska or something.

They pay attention to that guy too, right? It does matter. Yeah, it doesn't matter.

Absolutely. No, this feedback matters. But speaking of feedback, I wanted to transition

away from Volvo to another luxury brand. One that really is driving a lot of conversation that

has been for the past half decade to maybe longer, maybe even 20 years at this point. Cadillac. We

don't know, you know, Cadillac's been in a weird spot for a long time because the old, the Cadillac

of old, that just, that world is no longer. We don't live in that world any longer with

the big Eldorados and stuff. My generation grew up watching their parents and grandparents

drive. So, you know, Cadillac has tried to take steps in terms of design. We all know the art and

science thing and more European influence and all that sort of stuff over the past however many

years, as long as I've been doing this at least, so at least 13 years. And then, you know,

Cadillac's trying to really push on EVs as well and try and be a leader there. So you drove

the Optique and the VISTIQ and obviously Cadillac is really, like I said, really pushed forward

on EVs. They're really trying to keep themselves in that conversation as a luxury maker and

trying to keep pace with BMW and Mercedes, Lexus and Infiniti. But, you know, they've also taken

a lot of lumps on the chin lately. I think I mixed the metaphor there, but taken a lot of

lumps over the past few years. So do these two vehicles stack up in terms of luxury and

design and the sort of things that luxury buyers are looking for?

You know, I think so. You know, broadly speaking, both of these vehicles have

impressed us so far. And these, kind of like the EX90, are still going through our testing

process. So I can't speak, you know, to any formalized results or scores or anything like

that necessarily. Go to our website in a few weeks or a month or two and it should all be

there. But yeah, just, I mean, broadly speaking, Cadillac is covering a lot of ground when it comes

to EVs, right? They are really hitting the ground running. I think we see so many brands,

if you think back a few years early, you know, excuse me, early days of the pandemic and

everybody starts, all these brands start to really commit heavily to EVs, right? With,

you know, by 2030, we're going to be 100% EV or this or that. A lot of them kind of

adjusting and pulling back in some cases, those plans now and Cadillac hasn't, maybe to some degree,

but they've really stayed the course, which isn't always a GM strategy in general, let's be honest,

but they are putting out a lot of EVs, just GM wide, but Cadillac specifically, right? And

it's interesting to see that they're, for the most part, having a gas or, yeah, a gas version

and an EV version within whatever segment we're talking about, right? You have OPTIQ, which is kind

of like the, oh, remind me what the name of their smallest crossover is, it's the X-T4, right? Yes,

X-T4. Lyric, you could maybe draw the conclusion that that's somewhere similar to X-T5. And then

this Vistik that we're talking about is the 3-row, right? And it's, you know, maybe comparable

to their X-T6. And I know the lifespan of those vehicles is in question, some of those,

but the ICE versions. But just as we're recording this, we got some news that the X-T5 is going to

stick around a little bit longer. Okay. Hey, there we go. So yeah, kind of, and that's the strategy

we've seen with other automakers too, right? Particularly the Germans. So they are still

following that model to some degree, BMW, right? You have I4 and the four series and, you know,

kind of doing, hey, which powertrain flavor do you want? But I think Cadillac's doing it in an

interesting way where you do get something pretty different when you choose the EV version.

And these two cars, I personally, pretty impressed. I mean, that Vistik is really comfortable. I think

it looks very stylish and good. And you have pretty good materials. I mean, there's still

some of those areas, you know, like we're kind of used to seeing from

Cadillac or other GM brands where you really start to like lift the veil and you're like,

okay, this isn't quite finished the way I would expect or whatever. But,

you know, they have the software down pretty good. They're relying on Google integration,

which Volvo is to some degree, but generally their software is working pretty well. They have

the EV powertrains tuned quite impressively. They're very satisfying to drive, I'll say. And

I used to tell people, you know, Tesla really would have the tuning of the electric powertrain

down better than anybody else. They've been doing it the longest, powerful, well-tuned,

all that stuff. And kind of like really, I think, giving that a run for their money there with

how they have the one pedal driving integrated, for example, and just the tuning of that

accelerator pedal, it's easy to kind of roll on and be smooth. And it gives you that

luxurious experience, I think, when you're driving it. So, and, you know, all that to

say, these were two cars where after driving them for a couple of days and putting a couple

hundred miles on them, I go and I try to not look at how much a car costs right away.

Yeah. And so I looked at these window stickers and I was like, wow, okay, not cheap. Let's be

real. These are not affordable for most people, but in the world of EVs and for what you're

getting, I was surprised at the vehicles, the cost, right? So our OPTIQ, for example,

paid about $55,000 after, you know, destination and options and all that stuff. And that's a,

you know, pretty well-equipped. It's not the base one. It's not the OPTIQ V or anything like that,

but $55,000 and then that the Vistik is in the 70s, which, okay, again, not an inexpensive

vehicle by any means, but if you go and look and see what a Hyundai Ionic 9 costs, for example,

you can start getting into the 70s pretty quickly. So yeah, offering a lot of vehicle, I think, for

the relative cost and that Vistik in particular, you know, the three row EV segment is kind of

just starting to heat up with some pretty interesting competition and Cadillac has a

pretty serious contender, I think. So overall, yeah, pretty excited about both of those cars.

Yeah, so I always hate to extrapolate from one or two models to kind of see how a whole brand is,

but we're gonna do it anyway. So these two cars being fairly impressive, does that speak to

Cadillac as a whole being getting kind of getting back in the game? Has Cadillac finally found its

groove after 15 and 20 years of just kind of not quite being there?

Yeah, it's a good question. I think so. I mean, at least what I'm seeing with these

two cars, and we've tested the Lyric as well, and that followed in a similar path, granted it was

kind of the first one to get released. The more compelling than previous Cadillacs in my

experience have been, you know, outside of something like a CTS-5 V with a manual or

something like that. Yeah, the CTS-V is the only exception of the rule, because there's some

good input. Yeah, but I really do think that it's helping them find their place. I mean, just getting

inside one of these cars, the use of materials is interesting and kind of unique and the layout

of things. So it doesn't feel so much like copying something that somebody else is doing,

for example. Now, the one thing I will say and something for, you know, people who are

interested in these vehicles or Cadillac as a whole in their EVs, you know, really check out

consumer reports and our information, because we have seen with this Ultium platform, which they're

relying on, which, you know, platform is used in a lot of different ways in the industry, but

really it's the building blocks here in terms of like the battery modules and motors and things

like that. These EVs have not been the most reliable. Our survey data shows it, whether

we're talking about a Blazer EV or a Lyric, and we've actually seen it ourselves. You

know, we've tested a bunch of Ultium based cars, whether it's the Acura ZDX, which, you know,

borrows that platform from GM or some of the other GM products too, and they've had to go back to

the dealer a bunch. We've even had batteries replaced on some of these cars. So yeah, so I

think that's where, you know, the product itself, when it's functioning as designed,

seems great. So let's see, hopefully, they can work out some of this reliability issues

that we've been seeing, and then that'll certainly make the product even more compelling.

Yeah, yeah. And before we go, we have about 10 minutes left, a little 10 minutes. So before we

go, I just wanted to ask if you, and obviously this would be more clear as time goes on, but have you

run into any issues with, you know, GM kind of getting away from Apple CarPlay and also,

this is a separate question, do you think tariffs are going to be a problem for Cadillac?

Um, yeah, I mean... It's kind of a loaded... No, it's okay. Just the CarPlay one,

I mean, this is more anecdotal to a sense, or at least within our walls of testing,

just because we don't have any user or survey data or anything like that yet on this issue,

other than maybe some of the comments we get, but doesn't seem like the best choice.

I'll just put it that way, right? I mean, the amount of people... I would hate it.

It just, it feels like a money grab, if I'm being honest, because they want you to use

you know, the Google built-in, which requires a subscription and this and that. So

it just doesn't necessarily feel like it's the best decision, you know, or really even done

in faith, to be honest. And it's awkward too, right, because it's still there in all

their gas powered vehicles, they just left it out of the EVs. So if you really thought

that from a usability and user experience perspective, that was the best thing to do.

Why wouldn't you do that across all of your vehicles? Absolutely. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. So I know we're not, we're not too thrilled about that here. A lot of people

relying on CarPlay. So that's a bummer. I love CarPlay, personally.

It's actually a, you know, we have a logbook, just to lower the curtain even a little more,

we have a logbook for every car that people are just constantly putting notes into and it

gets pretty extensive towards the end. And it's too bad how many times a GM EV will be great.

And then people just say, well, it's a deal breaker, though, because it has no CarPlay,

wouldn't buy this or recommend it. Yeah. And CarPlay, for those who don't use it or don't

have an Apple, I can't speak to Android because I never use the Android system. But CarPlay,

and I'll keep the shorts running tight and tight. But CarPlay, I often find that Google Maps

or Apple Maps, which you can, or Waze, which are all accessible through CarPlay,

tend to be better at navigation than a lot of factory systems. It's a lot easier to play your

music off your phone. It's nice to have, it's just easier to get text read to you. And if you have

to make a Bluetooth call, I mean, I try and avoid making too many calls on the road, but it happens

sometimes. And sometimes you want to get text read to you because you don't want to

look at your phone when you're driving. So I just find CarPlay, I find CarPlay better

than just about any automakers, including Solantis, which has UConnect, which might

be the best one. I think CarPlay just works better than anything that automakers offer from the factory.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I can't, I can't disagree. I mean, it just, it's a familiar interface and all of that.

So yeah, definitely a curious choice to say the least. Yeah, and then to your other question

you were asking about tariffs for Cadillac. Yeah, we may not have enough time, but if you

Well, I think just, yeah, at a high level, it's hard to know exactly, you know, which brand is going

to be affected, you know, in which way specifically, it depends on where cars are made and where the

factories are in Cadillac, you know, is building things in different areas like most brands. So

I think it's just, it's more about that GM as a whole is going to be affected, right?

All of these automakers are going to be affected. And they have to amortize these costs,

you know, and bear the burden somehow. And, you know, the best inclination right now that we have is

that they're going to kind of spread that across different models, right? So, meaning that you,

as a Cadillac buyer, could end up fronting some of that increased cost that GM's having to deal

with due to the tariffs. Will it affect certain cars more than others? I guess it remains to

be seen, but certainly, you know, tax incentives going away and things like that. I mean, that's,

that's, I think, going to impact things even more upfront or more obviously for people,

right? Than even the tariffs themselves. So a lot changing in the EV market right now to

make them compelling and affordable for people. Yeah, that makes sense. So we've been talking

with Alex Nicely from Consumer Reports. And let me make sure I get this title right because

we're about to sign off here. It is Associate Director for Auto Testing Development. Yeah, you got

it. Okay, awesome. So, Alex, thank you so much for your time here on the Truth About Cars podcast.

And you said you guys had something for TTEC listeners. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, thank you.

Yeah, we have a link here. So if you go to cr.org slash ttac or TTEC, we'll give you 10 years

off of a, sorry, 10 years, $10 off a full year subscription to CR. So that was going to

say 10 years would be pretty awesome. I know, right? That was, sorry. You can definitely

subscribe for 10 years. So yeah, so 29 instead of 39. And that'll give you access to, you know,

not only just our full car ratings and reviews and reliability, everything we talked about,

but everything else that CR does too, right? So if you're shopping for a

refrigerator or other appliances and many things beyond that, I don't have any hand in

testing refrigerators just to be clear, we only do cars here. But yeah, so that's

subscription and membership gives you access to everything. And I think what's cool about it is

you can contribute to that reliability and owner satisfaction survey that we talked about. So

you can kind of have a direct influence on some of these results. That's awesome.

Thank you so much, Alex. Thanks for your time. All right. Thank you so much. Appreciate it.

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Cardinal Dealer Services LLC in eBay subsidiary. Here on the Truth About Cars podcast, we are

always talking NASCAR just about every week. This week is a little bit different due to some travel

issues and well, issues just vacation and business trips and that sort of thing.

We're not really going to talk about Richmond right now because we're going to record ahead

just because we may not be able to watch the Richmond race this weekend. If there is

podcast worthy stuff from Richmond, we'll hit it separately. You might get a different segment

or hear a little bit tacked at the end of this segment, but for now, we're going to do some

off-track talk with Matthew Guy, our T-track contributor, and NASCAR fan extraordinaire who's

here today. Matthew, how are you doing? Sounds like a good plan. I'm doing well today.

Yeah. I don't know about you. I don't know if you'll be able to watch Richmond,

but I'll be on vacation and I'll be in a spot. Unlike my, I was also on a short vacation a

month ago. That one, I was able to see the race. This one, I'm not sure I'll be able to. I'm not

sure I'll have access to the cable channels that the race would be on. So anyway, long story short,

let's talk about something that I found very interesting. It was in the athletic, which

covers NASCAR very heavily. The athletic is kind of, it's a sports-focused website that's

owned by the New York Times. Sort of replaced the New York Times sports section in a way,

and they have two NASCAR beat riders, at least Jeff Gluck and Jordan Bianchi, who I've gotten to

know a little bit when I've been at NASCAR races, both nice guys and both good at covering NASCAR

good riders. And Gluck did a story talking to a bunch of different drivers, basically

talking about how easy it is to spin these cars, the next-gen cars, even professional

race car drivers. And I've been thinking about it since I read it, not just because

it's an interesting story, which it is, but also on the level of, with the way the racing

schedule has gone in the Cup Series this past month, we've had, it's been since Father's Day,

a bit road course heavy. I think it was Father's Day itself that we had this Mexico City race,

we had the Chicago Street race over the Fourth of July holiday, then we had Sonoma,

I think, the exact week after, and then just recently the Watkins Glen race. And so

these cars spin on oval, so they also spin on road courses too. And sometimes you see a little

bit more on the road courses, which is why I'm bringing them up, because they, you know, that's

when drivers sometimes miss a marker, come in too hot or whatever and spin a car out without

contact. But I've also noticed a lot of drivers spinning even at the Dover race, it was either

Christopher Bell or Chris Buscher, I think it was Bell, or it might have been Chase Briscoe,

was one of the CB guys, spun twice, the 20 car, the 20 car, he spun twice without

contact, and even cost himself a chance at winning the race. So, you know, people wonder, Matthew,

why it was Christopher Bell, I had the wrong, sometimes I get the CB, you guys mix up my head,

but it was Christopher Bell. People wonder why these drivers, these best in the world drivers

with all this experience, many of these guys started as literally as little kids in go-karting.

And when I say go-karting, I don't mean the K1 speed stuff or what you have great America,

I mean like fast go-karts that are tough to control, fast being 50, 60 miles an hour or more.

These guys have all this experience, they've been driving cars since before they could even

think about getting a driver's license, they've been racing cars anyway, not driving on the

street. And they spin all the time without even being touched by another car. And people wonder

why. And so the article gets to the bottom of it. Basically, well, first of all, anyone

can spin a race car, no matter how the car is set up, right? You go too fast, you lose grip,

you break it the wrong time, you have to set the chassis, you can spin. We all know anyone

as a car person knows that. You can, if you're driving hard and you don't have electronic

nannies like ESC or VSC, you can spin a car by going just too fast into a corner. You

overwhelm your tires, grip, you come around. When I was in my teens, I spun a car because

I let the clutch out on what leaves in a corner and second gear. I wasn't even going that

fast, but that torque hit the rear tires, which were worn and I went around. I didn't hit anything

and just went around. It happens. Bad weather, you lose grip, right? So, but the thing is with

a lot of performance cars, whether there's road cars or race cars, especially if you're on a

racetrack in that controlled environment, especially for your professional driver,

you can start to feel when a car is getting loose and getting ready to spin.

And you can catch it. And a lot of these cup series drivers were saying that with

the truck car, the NASCAR fastbound trucks they race on Fridays and the Xfinity cars,

which are different than the next-gen cup cars, when they slide, whether it's an oval or a road

course, they can oftentimes feel the tires losing grip and they can catch it. They can

opposite lock the steering back off the gas with the brake as the case may be.

Now, one thing too I should mention is that some of these cars will spin because of aerodynamics.

They catch dirty air and that can upset a chassis too, so that's part of it. But

what they said is, and you have to read the athletic article to really go into all the details, but

that's why the chassis and suspension is set up in the next-gen cars is they spin

without warning in a lot of cases. So, the driver can be in a corner and he can feel like

he has grip and all of a sudden he doesn't. He doesn't get warning, he's going to spin.

So, with a lot of race cars, if you're a professional driver, you can sort of feel

the car sliding, catch it. In this case, it's everything feels fine and then it doesn't.

Anyone who's spun in mid-western snow has experienced that, where you feel like you're fine and all of

a sudden you catch a little bit of ice and you go around. So, it's kind of the same concept.

So, Matthew, I've talked long enough. I wanted to kind of get your thoughts on that,

and especially since you actually do race cars on an amateur level on the weekends,

kind of walk me through your thoughts on these cars spinning on their own when

a driver thinks he's got it and that he doesn't.

Absolutely. And for any of our listeners who haven't read the article, it's over on the

Athletic, written by Jeff Glock, came out August 7th. So, if anyone's searching for it,

there it is, great article. I recommend that everyone go and read it. And I suppose the

crux of the matter is, just like you said, Tim, anyone who has driven quickly,

you know, especially on a racetrack, will know that some cars are easier to quote-unquote

safe than others. And that extends even to very slow, because I enjoy off-roading, you know,

and rock caroling and things like that. Oh, yeah, it can happen off-road,

because you lose fuel and scrap, absolutely. Big time. And some, you know, off-roaders,

just like some on-road race cars, and I'm sorry, on-road sports cars, and then race cars

on the track, are just simply more complimentary than others, right? Whether it's the

chassis setup or the tire selection or whatever. And so, I find it super interesting

to read this article that's quoting race car drivers who are far more, you know, able than I,

have way more skill than I will ever have, you know, on a racetrack, saying that this car,

meaning the current quote-unquote next-gen car that has been in use in NASCAR for some spell now,

is super easy to spin. And we see that, you know? If not week in, week out, then a lot

of weeks. We'll see top drivers like Kyle Larson, you know, spinning out on their own,

you know? Some people spinning out in practice or qualifying, and that so rarely happened

in the past. And speaking to what you said, it was Carson Hosefair, who is quoted here as saying

exactly what you said to him in the truck series, or just about anything else I've driven,

Hosefair said. It's like you get loose and hold the wheel, and you can save it a little bit.

But whereas here in the cup series, you lose the downforce, the looser you get, and it starts,

he says, chattering the rear, because the sidewall of the tires is so short. So

I forgot to mention that, that's a big reason, yes. Big reason, right? So there's so end quote

thereafter, so short. And I think that that is a fascinating, I think there's a bit of a

perfect storm here, because you do have a car that is aerodynamically different

than other cars that we've had in NASCAR in the past. We've had the switch to these tires along with,

I don't know if this has much to do with it, but it is a change. You have the single lug nut now.

Yeah, yeah. We've created the difference. The tire itself is different, of course,

the sidewall and whatnot is not as meaty quote unquote, as some of the tires in the past.

But you also got to think about the power that they don't have anymore. And one of the,

see, you think about, this doesn't work in all situations, of course, especially if you're rock

crawling, but the old saw, when in doubt, power out, right? Hitting the gas, of course, doesn't

work all the time, but these, and it can end quite badly when you do so, but top tier drivers that

we see in the NASCAR series, in the Cup Series especially, they are able to use that

throttle to get them out of situations. And I also wonder if the relative lack of power compared to

some of the cars in the past might not be part of this, because that straightening things out with

the gas pedal is not as strong of an option as it was in years past. That's a really good point.

And I probably should have had you lead off the segment because you actually race cars. I

have not really had the chance to race real cars. I've raced air quotes here for those

who can't see me. I've raced go-karts in a fun environment. They were not professional go-karts.

They were, Road America has a go-kart track, and I've raced a couple other tracks where

there's a faster than your great America car and they're a little more difficult to drive,

but they're not really the racing cars that professional drivers using. Anyone can jump in

and drive. I mean, they're not, you don't have to have talent to drive them, but they

are a little faster and a little more challenging than a kiddie go-kart. These are probably 40

mile an hour to 50 mile an hour top speed. A K1 speed go-kart is probably 25, 30, and K1

speed karts are a little easier to drive. They don't snap around quite as easily.

So these go-karts are probably closer to coming to racing, but they're still not

really racing karts, so I don't want to oversell it. But one thing I will say about the

karts at Road America is they are, like the next gen car, super easy to spin. Now partly because

they only have one brake, they have brakes only on one wheel, so if you lock a wheel,

you're going to go around. So I should have had you lead off, but I have driven on a track,

I have driven in inclement weather, I've lived my entire life in the Midwest,

rain and snow, which it's a different type of cause of a spin, but similar physics,

losing grip if you're going too fast or break at the wrong time or turn the wheel the wrong way

at the wrong spot. I mean, I have, I'm trying to think of every spot on that track. I don't

believe, well there is, there was an incident that I wrote about on T-Tech that was an

understeer incident where a car did not turn and I went into a wall. I've not, I've

definitely gone sideways on that track, definitely fishtailed. I don't recall top of

my head if I've gone around full 360 or even a 180 on a track, but definitely have gotten

the limit of the car, of the car's grip at times and every, I'm not trying to brag because I think

every professional automotive journalist has gotten there at some point. In some cases,

because the driver's really good and also to find the limit in other cases, because a guy

pushes too hard and runs out of talent or it can be one or the other. So I'm not bragging,

just saying it's something we've all experienced. If you've driven a car, if you are an amateur

racer, you've experienced it. If you're an automotive journalist, if you are

someone who does what they call HPDE, high performance driving experiences where you take,

maybe you've got a Corvette or a Mustang and you take it to a place like Road America or Lime

Rock. Even if it's a stock, bone stock from the factory car with all the electronic minis,

you've probably experienced it. If you've gone to a performance driving school,

you've experienced it. I've done a defensive driving school where they take a

mat. This is to teach you how to control a car in inclement weather. They take a mat and throw

water on it. You drive at a cone at a certain rate of speed and the last second the instructor

tells you to go left or right and sometimes you spin and you're trying to learn how to control

the car and spin or you do a skid pad where you're going around a circle trying to get

the car to kind of drift. So the reason I bring all that up, it's not just to give you

my resume. It's to mention that, to say that a lot of us, myself included in Matthew,

I know you have, have this experience where we've had a chance to control a car at the limit,

over the limit. And like you said, Matthew, whether it's a sports car or a race car,

there are a lot of cars, and I said this earlier too, where you can sort of feel that you're

losing that grip and you can kind of be in the knife edge. And for the average driver on

the road, it doesn't really matter. But if you're a race car driver, it matters. You're

pushing the car as hard as you can. And if you slow down, you might lose position.

And that's why these guys are spinning the next gen car. So there was a, there was a method to

my madness with going to that background. The reason these guys are spinning these cars is

they're pushing really, really hard. And instead of the, instead of finding the limit,

like they do in Xfinity series or the Craftsman series, where this car gets a little bit loose

and they say, okay, well, I can't go any faster than X because if I do, I'm going to lose

grip. And if I lose too much grip, I'm going to spin. If I spin, I might hit the wall,

even if I don't hit the wall, even if I catch the car and don't damage anything,

I've just lost a lot of track position. And even sliding will actually cost you time.

So these guys are pushing it really hard. And then they do it in Cup series and they're

pushing really hard, pushing really hard. And there's no, there's that really fine line,

but there's no warning. And the way I think of it is almost like in baseball,

when a fly ball is hit to the warning track and outfielder feels with his feet

that switch from grass to gravel and he knows that wall is coming up and he knows he may have

just slowed down with what hit in the wall or he may have jumped or whatever, you know, because

he's tracking the ball with his eyes. Well, I think of that for a race car driver. That's,

it's a weird analogy, but I think it's, I think it's going to make sense.

And the cars where, where the driver can feel the loss of control, it's like being

on the warning track, they get a little warning, okay, you can't go any faster than this,

or you're going to spin and you're going to lose track position.

The cop car, it's like there's no warning track. And they're, you know, they go into a corner

fast as they can, you know, pushing it as fast as they can at the edge of their limit.

And they think they're okay. And they go around and all of a sudden you're like, well,

hide a car to Larson, one of the best drivers in the world, go around. Well, that's hot.

Absolutely. Because, you know, these, these drivers, Jeff Clark said it quite well in

his article, right? They're so close to the edge of disaster on every single lap around the track,

right? So, you know, why not just back off a little bit, you know, the anyone who's

nude and ask her might say, well, if you know that that is where you're about to go, then,

you know, why don't you back off? And you can even if you don't have a speedometer in front

of you, you have a tachometer. So that's how these drivers try to tell how fast they're

going. But that in the spotter in their ear. Exactly. True. Yes. The spotter is there

as well. Telling you what's up. And I mean, the problem with that line of thinking is that

every driver in the cop series are already going all out. So if you play it even just a little

bit safe, right? Yeah. You said, right, you're running 30th every week, right? Yeah,

excuse me, 38 or 40 cars. Have you experienced this in your run racing? I don't know exactly

what type of racing you do and what type of tracks you're on. But I believe you said

you've done kind of stock car and quarter mile tracks and like that. Have you experienced

it or are you just going not quite fast enough, not quite long enough of a track?

Yeah, I'm not going fast enough, you know, to be on the bleeding edge as these guys.

Generally, you know, when, not if I spin out, it's me screwing something up at a speed that

someone else would probably have saved it, right? So I'm certainly not, certainly not at these

guys' levels. But, you know, these cars, unlike some other series back to NASCAR,

it's not like they have traction control. It's not like they have, you know, or not supposed to

anyways, right? I mean, you look at some other series. I mean, there's all kinds of

electronic aids that are helping, you know, the drivers. That doesn't take away from

their skill set, but it does, you know, prevent some of these incidences from happening. And

right if you are always up against that virtual wall, of course, they're going to be up against

the physical wall too, but they're always up against the virtual wall of spinning. I mean,

that's how you win races, you know, that's, we've talked about Shane Van Gisburg and so many

times this season in this podcast, because he knows how to feel, for however, you know,

he races on all the other tracks, he knows how to feel that car on a road course. And

that's a huge skill. So whether it's because some of the drivers might still be translating

what they know from driving the old cars to driving these new cars, I think that might have

a little bit to do with it too. You talked about at the beginning of this segment of the podcast,

right? Kyle Busch is someone who's always criticized the next gen car. And he has points,

you know, about, you know, this car and some of the tweaks that they've made to it. NASCAR has

listened, you know, to some of the criticism that has been thrown at that car and, you know,

made some changes on the fly even the middle of the seasons. But someone who has a point

of reference like Kyle Busch who has raced many different generations of cars in NASCAR,

you know, they bring that sort of, they bring that sort of, I guess, perspective to it,

that someone like Shane who jumps into this car and the only car he's ever known,

he's kind of like, I guess, what are you talking about, right? I mean, this is just the way the

car is. So making that transition is certainly difficult for any driver coming out of a different

type of car or coming out of a completely different series. So it's something that,

you know, they're just trying to make your stuff go faster than it's capable of going.

Yeah, and obviously it's racing, go faster than the other guy. I really like how you said

it's a matter of when, not if, when you spin. That's really true with racing. I, with the exception

of my one really bad incident a few years back that I wrote about in TTAC, which was a bit of a

case of pushing the car a little too hard and a bit of a case of panicking when the brakes were

not quite there. And I made a mistake. I should have just gone over the gravel trap and try

to save it. I shouldn't have. But I don't think I've spun on a track in a press car

because I'm not quite pushing. I'm a conservative track driver, partly because I just don't have

the racing experience. And I'm, I didn't grow up with driving go-karts, serious racing go-karts.

So I just don't have as much experience as some of the other folks out there. But it's also not

my car. So I'm, I'm not going 10-10s in an un-timed one car at a time on the track situation.

Or even, or you see that I'm in the lead follow and the lead follow is holding back a

little bit for safety's sake. So I don't have a, I mean, there are times, like I said, I've gone

sideways. And there are times I've definitely been on the limit or close to it. You're pushing a car

pretty hard. And the more experience I've gotten doing this job over 15 years, the better I've

gotten at pushing cars hard, especially after having instruction from some pros. But that being

said, you as a race car driver are going to be pushing even harder. It's so when I'm

evaluating a press car at a track like Road America or, or a Sonoma on a press launch,

I'm going to be pushing maybe close to the limit here and there, but maybe most of the time a little

bit under that. You as a race car driver, trying to beat the other guy, even if it's just for fun

on Friday night, will be pushing a little bit harder. So you're definitely going to have the

inevitability of a spin. And I will say to these next-gen cars, the only time I've ever

driven an S-car stocker, and I've talked about this before in the podcast, I won't go too

deep into it. I had a chance to do the Richard Petty experience a decade over a decade ago.

Those cars are probably from the 1990s. So they were pretty old at the time. On a banked oval,

the Chicago Land Motor Speedway with a spotter in my ear telling you what RPM to go to and what

speed to go to. I never came close to losing grip because I think I was at the right speed.

And they told us on a banked oval with those cars, if we as long as we weren't going too

fast or too slow, we'd be okay. And as long as we didn't cross under the white line and put

half the car on a flat ground and half the car on the banking, which would cause a spin,

we'd be fine. So I found that car, there were difficulties driving that car, but I never

did feel loose, which is the fishtailing, the rear end braking loose. So, and I'm sure that car

was detuned for the fact it was public people driving it as opposed to some of them had never

driven anything fast before. So the reason I brought that up isn't to brag about

sitting at it 12 years ago. It's to point out that setup matters. Yeah. And these cars were

set up so they wouldn't get loose easily. And if they did, you could catch it. So that brings

us right back to the next gen cars. They are set up to be in that knife's edge.

They are because in, you know, this, this, this is a world where the cars are all super,

super close in terms of their capabilities. So the cars and the drivers, you know,

the drivers need to take that and then differentiate themselves somehow, you know,

some people will fairly or not say, Oh, you don't want to ask cars to suspect series these

days with different stickers on the nose. No, there are differences, but there are a lot,

a lot of similarities. The cars are super, super close. And so is the car level the drivers.

Right. And so that's what sets it apart. And if you're able, if you are on the edge,

you're able to separate yourself from the guys who aren't or can't get their cars to do that.

So after having this car on the track for X number of years, I'm sure one of our listeners will

chime in somewhere on the website and tell me exactly how many years we've had the next gen car

now. You know, maybe it's time for NASCAR to start looking at, because they have responded.

We know they can respond and they have a willingness to respond to some criticism about

this car. Some of our listeners might be old enough to remember when they eased this car into

usage. Remember, they didn't do the full year with this car right away. That sounds familiar.

I wasn't paying as close to potentially NASCAR that particular year, but it does sound right.

Yeah, right. They were doing some and then the first person to win and someone can correct

me on this, but my brain tells me it was Kyle Busch and in that car, in the next gen car and

came out and said, now these cars suck, right? And you know, there was a lot of hand wringing

in the NASCAR hauler at that. Watching that come out of his mouth on TV.

Yeah, for sure. Come out of his mouth on TV. But just with some of the other criticisms

that have come out from racing and such of this car, NASCAR has had a willingness to

listen to some of it and they have enacted some changes. So maybe it's time to start making some

changes to address this, whatever it might be. Tires are a tangly thing because you're working

with another entity. You're working with Goodyear so that there's two cooks in the kitchen there.

But when it comes to the car itself, there's probably some things that they can do. They

can free up a little bit more horsepower. That might help. Of course, then you're back to,

if you're on the edge and it does brake loose, then it's going to be a faster speed at which it

brakes loose. But the argument is there that they might be able to catch it and power out of the

scenario. Sure. Right, with a few more horses. So it's not all loss for the next gen car.

I do think there will be more tweaks. And especially if we get a new manufacturer

in the series. If Dodge returns, yes, yes. That's a topic for another day for sure. Well,

we've already kind of touched on it a little bit. But yes, if Dodge returns,

which we know they're coming into truck. Matthew, we just about out of time. Is there anything

else you want to add real quick? No, no, just other than I enjoy conversations like this. It's

really good. Yeah, we'll have more of this kind of bigger picture stuff is when we get into the

off season. After the after the playoffs and championship are determined. So Matthew guy,

thank you so much for your time here on the truth about cars podcast talking NASCAR.

Yes, thank you for the forum to do so Tim, I appreciate it.

That's all for today's tech podcast. I am Tim Healy, the managing editor.

You can find us wherever you get your podcasts or at ttac.com or the truth about cars

all spelled out.com. We think Alex and Isaac and Matthew guy for their time and Matt Poskey

for editing. Most of all, we thank you for listening. We'll see you next time.

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