We Roast Each Other's Cars — The Carmudgeon Show w/ Jason Cammisa & Derek Tam-Scott — Ep 180

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What is that thing in the background? An e-golf. Now, the thing in the dark that's red and only is missing two wheels. It's a bike mogen. Is it motorcycle mogen? Yes. Today on the Car Mogen show, we are going to roast each other's cars, including the two dailies that we brought here. My daily driver, electric golf cart, and his daily rider, Ducati, Pandan, Quali, V4S. It's a pair of Volkswagen products.

We both daily Volkswagen's. It shouldn't be a 4V because it's a tie-in. Yeah, but the reason why the fiat autovu is called the autovu is because V8 was already trademarked by Ford. You're getting. Is that why? You know, you come here for the insults, but just stay for the knowledge. Meaningful knowledge that will improve the quality of your life and that you'll be able to deploy immediately. Also, let's talk about V8 and Italian.

V8, which is a terrible thing to say. Autovu is much better. Just like Carmogen and Haggarti and Jason Acameza and direct them hyphen, I don't know. How would an Italian pronounce a hyphen? Iphone. Iphone, hyphen, damn, hyphen, it's called that. And how do you say clapping in Italian? Nonso. Nonso? No, I don't know. Oh, I don't know. In Italian. Well, just do the clapping.

On with it.

Okay, so I know I mentioned this in the intro, but I really did love the idea of. I think the audience would love very much if you ragged the shit out of my cars.

I like the idea of roasting you roasting my cars because I feel like you're a measured and well-spoken individual who often will focus on the bright side and just sugarcoat things. And I think you should, I think you should just let me have it.

And I think there, there's an opportunity for comedy here. I did not engineer these cars. So I therefore can't be offended. Okay.

But you did choose what modifications to make to them. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, oh, I've been watching a lot of roasts. So I wouldn't go so I saw Nicky closure live. And she's, I've, if you don't know, and you probably don't because you don't watch that tube that has a cathode ray thing on it.

She's just a fucking master at roasting. And I just it amazes me that somebody could sit through like a comedy central roast and not just absolutely killed themselves.

But laughing along with it. And yeah, that inspired me. I thought you should roast my cars and I should roast yours. Okay. So well, why don't you show us how it's done.

Okay. You want to start with the two that are here? Oh, sure.

I look, I've been driving an eagle for eight years. We almost at nine long time, very long time. And I'm sort of on record of saying it's the best car in the world for my particular use case, which is I live in a place where the roads are small and the parking spots are even smaller.

The roads are very twisty and fairly bumpy. And so I want a use cases give me a GTI without turbo lag that will drive me around the small areas of San Francisco and Marine County that like an absolute lunatic and handles and does all the things that are important to me steering, handling, breaking, whatever else.

And the visual expectation that you are not doing lunatic things. Yeah, I look frumpy.

Oh, yeah. I don't want to do it. It's the one the one car that I need to have known even looked twice at. So like, you know, I really want to put my I hate everyone license plate on it.

That came off the the Lotus, but I just can't bring myself to do it. But so yeah, I've had so eagles for total of eight plus years.

Grand total of 19,000 miles on this car plus 22 plus 12 on the other. So 30 something thousand miles on them.

I give the car an A plus as a journalist, right? Understanding this is a compliance car with a very limited range, but how well does it perform its intended functions A plus?

And then I have for each one of the cars, I have a good and bad like things that I like about a things that I don't.

So you won't need all fall. So I think it's I did. Yes.

So after all these years, and not that many miles, but a lot of time, because it's all city driving, the efficiency is off the charts.

I mean, the car just absolutely over delivers when it was stock. And I before I ruined it, it over delivered way above and beyond EPA in sort of normal driving.

The packaging is unbelievable. I can fit basically there's been almost nothing I haven't been able to fit in that car.

There was a couch that I bought that couldn't fit in the van either. So there was that.

The interior materials, the build quality, the ride and handling are all just tense.

Like there's nothing close to that for 50,000 bucks or more. And that was sticker on it was 31, 33. I paid $9,800 brand new with incentives and discounts.

Bad. It had halogen, halogen, halogen headlights. They were atrocious, not bad for halogens, but not acceptable.

Both for an EV that needs efficient lighting and for a modern car.

The steering is accurate when you're turning vague on center.

So there are times when the car just sort of goes a little bit that way and across wind or something and there's absolutely no, you have no idea.

So vague on center steering. And it was too light. I went on the computer and told this one it's a GTI. So it has GTI Effort Curve, which is much heavier.

GTI Sport mode Effort Curve.

And then the only real F de Merit it gets is the handover between regen and friction breaks.

I drive in B all the time so it's like down one below drive, which is max regen. And that handover is pretty good.

You sort of you get a little bit of extra regen and then it transitions pretty quickly and fairly.

It's not seamless. No, no, it's it's perceptible, but it's linear and it never changes.

The big issue is A, if you don't drive in that mode and B, when you first start the car, you don't have brakes.

And so my this car gets about a second between when you started, so when the whole powertrain boots up and the Bosch Ebooster wakes up.

And so for that second, you don't have brakes. And so I will often hit the button, go into drive and the car will release the parking pole and start to move for a half a second or a quarter of a second before I have any brakes.

At all. And so I, you know, a bunch of my friends bought these cars and knew one of them hit another car repeatedly because he was parked on a really steep driveway.

And the car would just take off and you'd have, you know, four feet or three feet. I typically only make it, you know, couple inches, but it's disconcerting.

You sort of move and whatever. That's an F. Everything else in the car is worst cases like, you know, B or C for the headlights.

But yeah, best Alia have ever owned. I'm annoyed that it's so good. I'm so sick of talking about it. But there it is.

Yeah, I mean, I sold mine for two reasons, I guess. One was that it just hadn't not enough presence, which is not something that matters for your use case.

But for me, I would have liked it to, it would have liked it to be more GTI-like in its presentation, which still is under the radar.

I just, you know, it doesn't, it's not the right tool for that job, which is why I sold it and replaced it with the GTI.

I mean, it has the proportions of a hamster. Let's be honest. It really does.

I well fed hamster fed to excess.

Corpulent hamster. That's the corpulent hamster car. So I would have liked something that had the visual presence of a GTI.

I like the small changes that make the GTI. That would be cool. Like if there was a GTE would be cool.

And then, you know, it could use, if you're going to do that, then it could use more power and torque and it could use more range.

I mean, it would be GTI wheels on mine.

Back to the stock wheels.

But like the body kit and the seats and the steering wheel.

It's the seat fabric.

Like I want, if I, somebody from Copart reach out, somebody who's got a Copart account reach out, I just want Mark's 7.5 GTI seats and steering wheel.

steering wheel is beautiful, I think. And the steering wheel on this car is kind of frumpy looking and the GTI steering wheel is like righteous, sweet, good looking.

Yeah, if I, that had GTI seats.

I would do the body kit and the wheels and the seats and, you know, basically aesthetically you would do it.

I like the blue accents because the blue stripe is just the blue version of the red stripe so you'd leave that.

And then, yeah, it could use another 50 to 100 horsepower and it could use three times the range.

Yeah. But it also is, you know, 3,400 pounds. That's what I kind of like about. There was only 3,400 pounds.

It's, it's my city beater. So it just says yes. No, it does what it needs to do. But for me, the reason why I replaced it with a GTI is because I wanted more power and I wanted range because it's the only modern car I have.

And so if I'm going to have a modern car, I kind of wanted to use it for long dull drives where you don't want to pile miles on something interesting.

And the GTI was really good at that. And this thing, you just, there was a bunch of, I just don't want to fast charge it.

Well, you can't, I mean, at the end of the day, highway mile, 80 mile an hour range is realistically 90 something, EPA rated 125.

I average about 140 when it was stock. But, you know, even when the stock wheels and tires, you're looking at 90 miles of range at 80 miles an hour at the most.

And so you're stopping every 50 minutes. Yeah. Yeah. No. So it wasn't suited. And that's why I think they didn't sell that well. You see a lot of them here because it makes sense in this environment.

They're all over. Yeah. And to be fair, the majority of days that one drives that I drive, you know, I'm certainly not covering more than 60 miles in any day unless I'm going on a trip.

But that car when I got it when it's new, I was like, I was going on a trip and I was like, I'd love to take.

And then it was like the first time I actually face to face met the complaint that ultimately led to me replacing it with the GTI.

Yeah. I mean, I have DC fast charge. This one probably 10 times in four years, five years, if even that. Like it doesn't daily routine doesn't really involve going that far.

Yeah. And there've been one or two of those times just because I don't maybe charge it once a month.

Literally saying I would like to go pick up a set of seats in somewhere. That's 100 miles from here. And then you would like the eGolf they would fit in, but I just didn't have the range to do it.

But look, I could do it. I mean, there are fast chargers everywhere and I could do it. The question just becomes, do I have another car that I'd rather do it in?

So I can take Vangina, right? But I can take my 30 wagon or the Rover, the Rover's basically it's bigger than way bigger inside than that.

Sure. And I think I'd rather just if I have an option of driving 200 miles tonight, I'd rather take something old and fun, right?

I'm not sitting in traffic. Yes. The other thing I hate about this car is the heat. Actually, it's cheap and they programmed it to be cheap.

And the European versions of those cars got a heat pump, which would fix that, but you can easily lap off 40 miles of range, which is almost half the battery by just turning the heat up to 78 or 79, which will bring the cabin to a comfortable temperature, whereas most cars I'm comfortable at 71, this thing they would like me to just don't test them, but 79 would be 71.

Probably lopped off 4 degrees Celsius or 5 degrees Celsius. And so it's got great cloth seats that are heated. So in their instant, I was moving in and out and I was already getting bun warming from just driving it from the parking spot in front of the building to inside.

So yeah, like 30 seconds and you feel it. But yeah, fantastic car. I get people, people were like, it's so stupid, but it was 98 hundred dollars brand new.

I have a gas 1.8 turbo gulf in the household, and it's exactly the same car with a gas powertrain, and it's twice. It used to be three times the price to run now with the way electric is here, because PG&E keeps burning down the fucking state.

It's still, electricity's got much more expensive until my solar goes in, and now, but it's still, it's half the cost to run this the gas car and no oil changes or whatever, but okay, no more EVs, the old stuff because I think we'll have more fun.

How about you? Should we talk about your Ducati, whatever the fuck that is?

Sure.

It's a Ducati Panagale V4S.

I have a bicycle too, but I think your bicycle has more horsepower than any of my cars.

Not the Ferrari.

Not the 850.

Not the 850, that's right.

It has 215 or 14 horsepower, 214 horsepower.

That is about the same horsepower as the Ferrari does.

Ferrari was rated at 240, but we all know Italians.

Yeah, we lie.

But okay, so it's a Panagale V4.

1100ccs, four cylinders range to V.

18,000 RPM?

No, it's like 145.

Okay, I know, I can't roast it other than...

Which means that first gear is good, you'll roast this.

I think more, I think more than 70 miles an hour.

Fuck that.

Well, when your red line is 14,500, it...

Who cares?

You want the build?

The problem is, this isn't how any shorter...

Even as it is with the gearing that it has, it's like you can't keep the front tire on the ground, as you learn with Josh Heron.

Even with a mega tall first gear, you can't put the power down.

So why would you ever put a shorter first gear in it?

You put a less powerful engine in it.

Yes, that is the actual answer.

It's basically the real problem.

It's overpowered.

It's also extremely hot, especially on the right side.

The last generation was like that, too.

So the exhaust on the rear cylinders comes out and then makes a loop and goes under your seat.

And then it comes out.

The muffler is down by your feet.

And so the rear cylinders exhaust headers have to go literally under your seat and make a U-turn and then go down to the muffler.

Because the muffler used to sit under the seats but they moved it down to, I think, change the weight distribution, bring it inside of the wheelbase

and bring the center of gravity lower.

So they move the exhaust down and then you get this thing where there's a bunch.

There's a loop that where it loops back so you have exhaust two ways.

Under your seat and directly under your bum and it'll cook your eggs.

Which sounds, eggs are very expensive at the moment.

We learned we went to lunch and they said they had no eggs at an omelet joint.

Which is like the seat heaters on the eagles.

You can't turn them off.

And that thing sitting in traffic on a warm day where you're just like stop and go at low speeds is absolutely miserable.

And then it's a superbike.

It's intended for racetrack use.

And so it's not great on twisties that are tight and it's not great at low speeds because of the gearing.

You're spending a lot of time slipping the clutch because it has such tall gearing.

But it has so much torque that it doesn't really matter.

But yeah, it's not a great, it's not super good for commuting.

Like trying to commute in a supercar.

It exactly is.

But the thing about it that's very nice is that it's narrow so you can lane split through really tight gaps.

And it doesn't have much steering lock either, which makes it a little bit difficult to maneuver in tight spaces as well.

I'm definitely not using it for its intended purpose at all.

But when you did get on the open road, it's pretty magical.

I mean, I was watching on Find My on the way here and you beat me by quite a margin and I timed it properly.

And the difference is I timed it thinking you were in a car and you were in something you can ride on sidewalks and through church parking lots and shit.

Yes.

And down church stairs.

Actually, if you want to ride down church stairs, you want a supermodo which is a dirt bike with street tires, which I also have.

And that's really great.

Husqvarna 701 supermodo.

So yeah.

It's totally silly and stupid and overkill, which is why I like it.

Yeah, which is why I like it.

Yeah.

I have nothing to say because I can't roast it other than it's a red Ferrari missing two wheels.

Yeah.

So you can roast it on that conceptual basis.

Is it...

Do Ducati's have the same sort of douche factor that supercar?

Yeah, there's like an element of them sitting around on tenders and not having any miles and nobody ever riding them.

And people with more money than sense buying them.

That's definitely a thing.

So to some extent, I'm kind of bucking that because I have commuted on them.

I mean, this is, let's see, my sixth Ducati superbike that I've used as a commuter.

I just ride them until they have too many miles and I sell it and then I buy another one.

So I've been doing that continuously for over a decade, which is why I'm on my sixth one.

So I use them, which a lot of guys don't.

I mean, it's pretty easy to find one that's 10 years old that has 12 or...

1200 miles.

Like they're considered high mileage if they have 10 or 15,000 miles.

Well, they're also Italian.

And, you know, they vibrate a lot.

It's a big displacement V motor.

And so the vibrated, the screw that holds the mirror in out.

So I fixed it with the Ducati repair kit, which was a cup of screws that you found in the parking lot.

Or that Jake found in the parking lot with the mag roller and some painter's tape and some Allen keys.

So, you know, when stuff falls off of it, that's still typically Italian.

All right.

That's a perfect transition to the other car that I drove today, which is also Italian.

That vibrates a lot.

And it kind of did me a bit dirty.

It made it home, but the Ferrari for the first time in seven years of ownership has started...

It has developed a problem.

It was started this morning. It was just in a bad mood.

It ran like shit.

I, of course, had to drive across an entire city along a road that has no breakdown lane in Russia or traffic.

That was fun.

But it made it.

1975 Ferrari 308 GT4.

You also owned this very car.

I did, yes.

I'm qualified to speak on it.

Go ahead.

Let's see.

Good back.

The good back.

And the bad.

And a great, because you know this car well.

The good is a lot of sensory and aesthetic characteristics for sure, which an Italian car should have.

The other sort of hidden, or like not at the top of most people's list for this car, but it's one of my favorite things about it.

It's the way that it rides.

It's on my list.

Incredible ride quality.

It's underlined.

It's in caps and underlined ride quality.

And so it has this on one hand sort of vaguely exotic character, since it's a mid-engine car.

That's wedge-shaped.

But the approaching departure angles, not break-over angle, because the wheelbase is so long, are very good.

You don't find any.

On my bad list, actually.

Is the front ground clearance in the center of the car?

Yeah.

So the trunk, the trunk is a spare tire well, and in the center of it is the bottom of the spare tire.

And I have hit bumps in the road and smelled burning rubber.

Well, an issue with the spare.

It now is rubbed through the fiberglass before I even got it.

It was a hole when you had it.

And now everyone's in a while.

And the spare just got a flat spot.

Burning rubber.

Yes, so when I owned it, I went over.

We were on a rally.

The first DWA rally we ever did.

And I was driving the 308, which is a somewhat inadvisable choice.

But I went over one of those bumps and I heard it bottom out.

And then I smelled what was not burning rubber at the time.

It was burning fiberglass.

But now the tire sticks out enough.

Or the whole is large enough that now you get burning rubber smell.

I'm just waiting here.

Exactly.

So yeah, that's one of, I guess, that's a minus.

But I think approaching departure.

Like you don't have to be careful with driveways or anything like that,

which you often do in mid-engine exotics because it doesn't have a splitter that chin that juts.

So yeah, I mean, it's a really usable pleasant refined.

But sensibly exciting and aesthetically interesting car that, you know,

has revs very nicely.

And it has a great feeling to the chassis and the steering that just makes...

It does everything that you would like an old car to do.

And it's much more usable than you would expect for an old Ferrari.

Mine's stuff is similar.

I mean, good is visibility, which is something you never get in mid-engine time cars.

Good steering.

Great engine.

Fabulous power.

And it's quick.

I mean, it's ND-2 Miata quick.

And experience looks and the fact that it's a douche proof Ferrari.

Yes.

I mean, just no one's going to look at you and be like,

we're trying to prove it with that ugly, foreseed weird things.

Well, yeah, the best is that it says Dino on the front.

So anyone who doesn't know what it is, if they're walking by at the front of the car,

they're like, I still don't know what it is, which is great.

Oftentimes, the most common is that people think it's in a spree or a delorean I've gotten.

I'm also going to lead large number of times as people really think it's a delorean.

I got a delore, a de Tomaso also.

Oh, yeah, sure.

But yeah, it's free.

It's free because the car's white.

It's white.

But the other, the only bad thing that I have.

So I've limit handling question mark.

Yeah.

It's just, it turns into marshmallows.

Yeah.

But it's got, I don't like it past eight and a half.

I don't like it past eight and a half.

It'd be interesting to drive one on sixteenths that have the same outer diameter,

but two inches less sidewall.

I don't think I'd want to fuck up the ride.

Yes, so I know.

I don't mind the limit handling because it grips really, really well.

In fact, on the negative list, long right hand turns will drop oil pressure down to zero.

Yeah.

And so my favorite on ramp that I do in most cars like a complete lunatic.

We should put a mechanical gauge on that because the senders and those cars are known for checking out.

Well, I just bought a new gauge.

I just bought a new sender.

Okay.

Because it would last for six months before it starts to be kidding.

Oh my god, it's kind of what I mean.

It's moving around.

It does everything fine, but it drops to zero.

And then, and I'm just off throttle, off throttle, off throttle, off throttle,

and then it's right back up and I floor it.

But it's only right hand bends.

It's not a, it's a wet sump motor and it's transverse.

So it's just what it is.

But the only thing that I have is shifter.

And the shifter's fine once the car's warm.

Yeah, yeah.

Damn that car.

I mean, I get up this morning in San Francisco, Russia or traffic.

Yeah.

And it will not go into second when it's cold period.

So the trick, I don't know if you've discovered this is once you've driven a certain amount of time in second gear,

it warms that gear up quickly enough.

Yeah.

So I'll start out in second gear, which is the gears are super short.

As long as I'm on level or facing downhill, start out for a second a couple times,

get maybe a half a mile or a mile in second gear.

And then it's, it's ready, but it's just you're, you're pushing a wooden spoon through frozen oatmeal.

It's just very high effort.

Doesn't want to go into second.

Yeah, you feel like you're hurting the car.

And this is standard practice in these cars is to go directly to third.

Right.

And that's just part of a Ferrari transactional.

Every dog leg Ferrari is like, that's like the dawn of times for there.

It's 1960s or 1990s Testerosa.

But if I'm trying to keep up with traffic,

I don't want to rev to four grand in first just so I can go in a third

because the engine's also cold.

Now the engine's warmed up, which sometimes I do, never long enough to get a oil temp.

Long story.

Small niggle, the car gets an a overall because as its job is to be a four plus two place mid-engine V8 Ferrari

to give you an experience.

And it delivers on the experience with very few drawbacks.

Other than it fucking steaks.

Yeah.

You know, unaccounted.

Uncarverated car.

Yeah.

Okay.

You want to do...

In order, yours, do you want to go back to the car?

To alternate.

Okay.

I'm just pulling up my list of cars so I can recall.

We're just going to do a shitload of Mercedes because I have a shitload of Mercedes.

Well, we can go straight from my Italian exotic to your Italian exotic.

Oh.

Yes, also designed by Candini.

The Lamborghini Miura.

I feel like I should say, I recuse myself and say, I can't even come close to affording an oil change on that car.

Therefore, I shouldn't criticize it.

But, you know, it's my job.

You'll have comments.

It depends on how you define the mission, right?

This car invented what a supercar should be.

And so, you have to say, like, well, what did they intend for this car to actually do?

What I think they intended for it to do was for Ferutcio to create a gigantic middle finger to Ferrari.

And so, for that, you have to give it like an A plus plus plus.

Did it?

Was that the intention?

Because Ferutcio didn't want to do this car.

That is true.

But once he saw what it was doing in the marketplace and people's reaction to it,

he was like, okay, we have to make this, right?

It was originally intended to be an exercise that they weren't going to put on production.

But once he saw the way how much attention it generated, which is really what he wanted for the company,

then he was like, okay, we have to make this thing even though it wasn't designed with the intent for production

and that much is clear when you interact with it.

So, there's the burn part.

So, you know, it did that mission really well.

The burn part?

It did that too.

It did the burn part well.

It did the middle finger to Ferrari part well.

It did the Inventedoo genre of car part well.

Notice none of these things specifically have to do with driving the car or using it.

Although it did offer performance and experience and noise that, you know,

it should define a supercar but all too often doesn't.

And so, in terms of providing an experience, it is just off the charts for sure.

The engine is a pleasure to interact with.

It is so right there with you in the car.

It's definitely induction noise, very little exhaust sound.

Do you get to enjoy as the driver of the car because you're overwhelmed by mechanical noises

of the engine, transaxle and carburetors, which is not mechanical noise, it's induction noise.

But yeah, there's a lot of, so yeah, experientially, the gear change is consistent but terrible.

Well, like, one of your complaints about the strados was that the gear change was not consistent.

You weren't sure whether you were in gear sometimes, especially first and third gears.

And this car, there's no ambiguity about whether you're in gear and every time you go to shift,

it works the same way.

I think the strados sometimes first and third would behave differently than other times.

And that's a pet peeve of mine in cars.

And so, at least it works consistently and once you learn how to use it,

then you just use that technique and then it is reproducible but it's not good.

It's just reproducible and consistent.

It's fine.

I mean, it's sophisticated, right?

Yes.

You know exactly where you are.

Yes. There's no ambiguity there.

But the path and the deliberateness and like, you can't cut corners, you really do need to make a,

you know, it's like the tetris piece that is the stair step.

It's that shape of motion when you gear change.

There has to be a forwards, a sideways and another forwards.

Not a diagonal line from second to third.

And you had better not, it better not be arm day because of your arm.

Yeah.

Arm is like, you know, sore, you're not getting the effort is, yeah, I possibly the highest of any.

Contache is higher.

Yeah.

Contache is higher.

Those are the two possibly highest efforts of any car.

Pedal position is absolutely junk.

And the location of the pedals relative to the steering wheel is also junk.

And it doesn't have much headroom.

It has really great light steering and great forward visibility.

Yeah.

Rear visibility is okay through the slots.

It doesn't carburet transitions well for sure.

But once you're cooking, it's definitely an experience.

So, yeah, I mean, as a driver's car, I don't think it's that great.

It's definitely experienced, but it's not a always good experience.

But it is very much the experience.

And the chassis, I actually quite trust and is confidence aspiring and the car feels solid and reassuring.

And I don't think there's anything about it sort of dynamically that really concerns or alarms me that I've experienced.

Look, the first time I drove a mirror, I had been told a million times it's terrible.

Like, they had some most beautiful car ever made.

It's absolutely terrible to drive.

That's 100% incorrect.

It is a terrible car.

Yeah.

When you define car as a transportation device, it just doesn't work because it's, you know,

unless you want to arrive at every one of your destinations, crying, shaking, you know,

having pissed yourself, shaking yourself, stinking, all of that.

But as, you know, to your point, that car is a plus.

If it's job is to make everyone turn and stare and to physically exhaust you with an assault every one of your senses,

it is off the charts.

Amazing.

And so to anyone who thinks it drives terribly, you just, you got the brief wrong, sorry.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's a terrible car.

But it's an amazing super car.

And there's a lot of great cars or terrible cars.

Yeah.

I like that measure.

I like bad cars.

And because again, that is that golf sitting in the back is the best car I've ever owned.

And yet it's also the most boring, right?

I mean, it does generate 1.08 GF grip on the wheels.

But is that really fun?

I mean, it's fun because it has no lateral support on the seats.

And people go flying and screaming and they can't believe my golf cart does that.

But no, I mean, that's the thing.

There's definitely an inverse correlation between being a good car and being fun.

Yeah.

You're right.

It's that right.

Okay.

We'll go from your mid-engine Italian car to my front-engine Italian dyed look rip-off-inspired

shift box.

But after we're going to go to your other mid-engine car.

Oh, we could.

Look at that.

It's also a Italian style.

It's been done by Pinn and Freina.

We're fine with that.

Okay.

So we'll go to my 1991 Honda beat.

Yes.

How about you wrote?

Come on.

Roast it.

Or just be honest.

I don't know.

You know, that's it.

That's it.

Derrick's response.

It's useless.

That's the problem.

I like that car until I try to go anywhere in it.

Right?

It's really good until you try to use it as a car.

The mirror has like that, too.

I just wanted to say.

But the mirror, there is one of my favorite things to do in the mirror is just to go like

100 miles an hour on the highway and just come blasting up in an old car.

In an old car, that is like, you shouldn't expect performance from an old car.

And just to be doing ungodly speeds in a car that, you know, shouldn't really...

Most people don't use those cars like that.

And, you know, you can't do that in the beat.

I feel so bad for the engine when I drive that car.

I just do this continually over 7,000 of them.

Yeah.

Actually, I think might be my...

I don't want to give it too much away.

It's not a great grade.

It gets a C-plus.

Well, you should be measuring it.

Are you measuring it by standards of an American road user?

Are you measuring it against the standards of a Japanese person who wants to have a fun car that...

So, here's one of measuring it.

It's a K-car, right?

This is a cost-reduced, sort of safety-reduced, complexity-reduced, concession to mobilizing a country.

And I think that part of mobilizing a country means of people going places.

And as you say, the car is fucking useless.

So, it kind of...

I think it's supposed to be a city car, almost.

But it's...

Okay, if it's going to be a city car, then it needs to be able to go city speed.

Alright, so we live in a city that's very hilly with this amount of power.

And, okay, this is an American thing.

Even when the engine...

Like, I have a rule.

No more than one third throttle over 3,000 RPM until the engine is warmed up.

You couldn't keep up with a pedestrian in this car following those rules.

And there's nothing more upsetting to me than being foot on the floor at 4200 RPM in a...

I stone cold engine with a line of preesses behind you irritated.

I can't go any faster.

I'm not going down into first and revving the thing to 8500 RPM.

It's just...

It's not enough power for our environment.

Yes, correct.

And that's why I'm wondering whether the grade you provided is against our environment or against the...

The big issue for the grade, though, is this is, at the end of the day, a mid-engine sports car.

Right?

It is a convertible to two-place sports car with an engine in the middle.

And so it should provide experience.

And that, it does by virtue of the engine.

The engine is out of this world's talkative.

It makes fabulous noises.

It revs to 8500 RPM with one cam.

I mean, it's pretty...

Like, only Honda could pull that off.

And only Honda could make a 3-cylinder this charismatic.

And rev happy, because they're all...

Italian motorcycle, 3 cylinders are also like this.

Sure.

I don't have that perspective.

But it handles like absolute shit and stops even worse.

Yeah.

There is...

There is a hits here, petless, whatever the...

El against PT-311.

I believe in the name of the test.

So you can't get tires for it, because the fronts are one.

Got one.

45.

65.

13s.

And the rears are 165.

64.

14s.

I wanted a match set.

I found two different vendors.

One who had the front size and one who had the rear size

and they shipped them to me and were done.

It's not the grip.

The grip level is actually okay.

It's not bad.

I have squeal tires.

I'm terrified.

The body roll is...

Would make a Mercedes...

You know, a...

A Saco error Mercedes fan.

Like...

Scared to death.

It understeers terminally.

God forbid this fucking thing ever did actually step out.

I don't...

I think it would just roll.

Because it would do a snap.

Because there's so much...

Yeah, body roll.

Yeah, that's...

The steering is...

Something only Honda could ever accomplish.

Be a list manual steering.

Be a list manual.

Reconpignancy.

Be sidebar, accurate, NSX.

Yes, exactly.

And then the braking distance is...

It locks up the fucking front wheels.

Clearly, and I don't know this for sure, but it had to be my...

It's my guess.

That they use the master cylinder and proportioning valve.

Sort of proportioning of a front engine car for this brake system.

The front's lock up at probably 0.6G.

And at that point, you start with 6.7 maybe.

You...

You have to come off the pedal because it doesn't have fucking ABS.

And so you...

The braking distance here is enormous.

In a panic situation, maybe I'd push through that

and get a little bit more braking out of the rear

to get them 0.8 or whatever.

But it's just...

The braking distance is on this car.

Terrifying.

So while it has the experience of...

Like an unbelieved 10 out of 10...

9.6 out of 10 shifter.

This engine that screams to high revs makes all kinds of noise.

It's geared short.

So even though it's so super slow, it sounds like you're going fast.

It has really good wind control.

It rides actually very well.

But then you get it on a twisty road and it's just kind of terrible.

And that's why it's just...

So then the question is, what is it for?

Like I said, useless.

It's the engine.

The Zebra interior gives it a lot of fun.

Yeah, so then at that point, I'd get a motorcycle.

I don't want to...

It makes no sense for me because if you want to interact with an engine like that, you can do it in so many motorcycles.

There's a lot of really cool three cylinder motorcycles that make that kind of noise.

Fair point.

But yes, if you're a car person...

This does have wipers in here and air can...

Functioning AC and power windows and actually pretty decent stereo.

I mean, it's a novelty thing and it works well when you're not trying to go anywhere on the highway

and when you're not going anywhere on a twisty road.

I mean, it looks like a good city runabout.

But then it'll...

Has no bumpers.

It's fine on a back road.

You're not going at the limits.

And that's the thing.

Limit handling is terrible.

And anything over...

You want to talk about the Ferrari being bad over a half-tenths?

I mean, if that...

What is the number of tenths on the beat?

Six.

But it's not just like...

Oh, this car doesn't like it.

It's terrible over six or seven tenths.

But you can keep up with anyone else on a back road.

Like, you know, it was not really bombings.

You know, people don't ride all the vests.

It's got good suspension travel.

Like, I kept up with a bunch of friends.

One was in in 9-11 on some back roads.

I was mad at foot to the floor, screaming 8,000 RPM shifts.

And, you know, seven tenths around the corners and had a lot of fun.

He was just cruising.

So it's not without its merits.

But it's just like, come on, Honda.

Put some good suspension on it.

It's some, you know, brakes.

It's a fucking sports car.

I don't care if it's a K-car.

Well, yeah.

I think they're probably building it to a price and that shows.

Fair point.

But also, that price is a really good point.

I mean, it's $6,000.

Yes.

It's a hell of a cool experience for $6,000.

Yeah.

I think I paid $6,000.

Yeah, $6,000, and it takes up half a parking spot.

So there's that.

So it gets a C plus.

Well, it's a toy for us.

It's a toy.

Yeah.

The function that it serves in the United States is as a toy.

And, you know, for $6,000, man, not bad.

Yeah.

So there's that.

Okay.

What's the thing to transition?

What convertible?

Why don't you go to your convertible?

My one convertible.

This is a car that I own as a convertible because it only comes as a convertible.

If it was not, if it was available, not as a convertible, I would own the non-convertible version.

Very well.

I'll be very surprised to find out.

It's a Mercedes-Benz.

And it's R129.

Yeah.

So it's fair to say.

There was a point at which I had three convertibles.

I don't like convertibles, but I had three of them.

And they were, it was just circumstantial.

You know, when was a Miata track car?

When was an R129?

And then I had an alpha spider, which, you know, you have to get the convertible.

In my opinion.

The R129 is...

You old man.

Yes.

It's very geriatric.

It's not a sports car.

And that's not the mission that it should serve.

And one of the things that most peeps me is when people characterize these as sports cars.

And if you are able to disabuse yourself of the in-ocean that it has anything in sort of a really sporting intent about it, then it's okay.

I mean, it will hustle.

I was going to, I was just going to totally disagree with you.

And it definitely will hustle for sure.

But...

Beautiful chassis on that car.

Yeah.

Wonderful chassis.

It does have some cowl shake for sure.

That goes away appreciably when you put the hard top on, actually.

The hard top is...

The hard top does serve structural purposes, which is a Mercedes-Benz re-thing to do.

Well controlled.

So the cowl shake was one of the least of its era.

Correct.

I think it was maybe the least of its era.

Probably the strongest car.

I mean, you know, the interior doesn't really rattle or squeak all that much.

Really well constructed.

Yeah.

Incredible roll control in the corner.

A lot of body roll, but it's incredibly well controlled.

Yes, and it doesn't prevent you from hauling the mail.

It's not like it's sitting on the bump stop such that it's dangerous.

It just has a lot.

And then the motor.

Yeah.

The motor is great as well.

The Ford Cam 32 valve, the good one, M-119.

And, you know, people are like, oh, it's an automatic.

Yeah, it's kind of suitable for this mission.

It's a GT that can also surprise and hustle.

It's, you know, there's a reason why I have owned four R129s.

I think it's one of the best Mercedes-Benzes ever made, actually.

Not the best.

I don't know.

I mean, I might be tempted to put 500 E in there instead because it's the same car basically

that weighs less.

That is more structure and a shorter rear end ratio.

But less aesthetically attractive, but in a different way.

You know, obviously the gluing deserves to be in there.

Yeah.

The gluing was such a different thing.

It is a very different thing.

But if you're going to say the best Mercedes-Benz ever made.

I would say it's the best Mercedes GT ever made.

That's the car that I would ease just without question.

Especially in your respect, the preface lift.

LH injected 5-liter is an A-plus.

Period.

I mean, it's just the car's perfect.

The things I would change as I would put the 5-speed transmission in.

I like the 5-speed automatic better.

It's a lot more responsive and intelligent.

And I would also actually swap in the later M119 that has coil pack ignition

because the distributors in these cars, if they're not just right and not serviced frequently,

then the cars can have a lot of weird running issues, rough idols and stuff like that.

That are just kind of annoying to chase and none of that exists with the later ones.

So you do a drivetrain swap.

But aesthetically, you've got to have the early car in my opinion.

I'm with you.

And they're so cheap.

So I think I'll probably always own one.

Yeah.

I can stand the idea of having an automatic.

Yeah.

I think the only minus is really complexity.

They just really threw the kitchens.

I mean, you can work on it, but there's a lot of complex stuff.

Like I was saying with the engine, with the ignition system, you know,

you have and all of the ignition stuff like to do just to buy the parts

because it's got two of everything.

One for each bank is like $500 just to do an ignition service.

And it's just none of that has to be done.

But that means cap rotor plugs.

Cap rotor plugs.

No wires.

Cap rotor plugs and insulators, which you should do on those cars.

And then like the roof system is hydraulic and that's scary.

It's kind of the only part of that car that scares me.

It's not scary.

It's just painful.

Oh, I'm scared of pain.

Yeah.

Okay.

That's a natural human reaction.

I can't really roast that car other than saying you old man.

Yeah.

Right.

For driving one.

And then you drive them.

And if anyone's spent any time in those cars, they have like magnificent steering

just by them being like communicative.

Just by them being boxes.

They just do everything.

Oh, here's a dig on it.

They don't have enough vertical space in the pedal box for you to place your foot vertically

on the brake pedal.

You have to angle it.

But I have a small feet.

You must.

Yeah, you must because I can't.

You have to sort of come in or go in an angle.

That's just the one.

The one passenger's foot well is too short.

Yeah.

Every time you're in passenger seat, I'm always trying to move the seat back further.

But yeah.

Whatever.

The car's spectacular.

A plus.

Okay.

Should we do your sacco Mercedes?

Oh, sure.

I like that transition.

This would be a Mercedes 190 E2.316.

Go ahead.

Be mean.

You sold it.

You had one and sold it.

I'm trying to pull the one thing that the thing I like least about your car is something

that's specific to your car.

It's a.

I need a new steering box.

Yeah, you need a new steering box.

Yeah, I could use more lateral support on the seats, I guess, given the cornering that it

is.

And the steering wheel is huge, which I know is probably a safety thing in case the power

steering fails, but it would be nice to have a smaller steering wheel.

But I also like the aesthetic of the undisturbness of the original.

It could stand a lot.

Well, how does this car sound with louder exhaust?

I would like more exhaust noise if they sound good, but if they don't sound good, then maybe

I don't.

I've heard one that sounded okay, otherwise they sound terrible beyond belief.

It didn't take noise, though.

Fortunately, which is nice.

So at least you get to have some engine noise, even if it doesn't have any exhaust noise.

Let's see.

Is there anything else really that I don't like about that car?

No.

I mean, the gear change, of course, is not very, doesn't conduce to hustling very much.

Although if you're not doing the one-two shift, which you aren't normally underway, it doesn't

bother me, but it could be better.

It's not the best part of the car.

I mean, this is a car I give an A-two.

I think this might be the highest.

Well, you give an A-plus to the Golf.

Yeah, the Golf, the Ferrari, and the Mercedes-Gitae, no one else says.

To me, the seat's are made by Recaro, they are the rear seats and the front seats are

similar.

It's four-seat four-buckets.

You know, I've never sat in the back of one of those cars when I was being hustled.

I wonder if the back ones were very different.

They're more supportive than the front, yes.

The front are sort of wide and they don't have, they have huge bolsters but somehow broad

and shapeless, so they don't do anything.

They're fine.

They're just not.

On a car that's this good, this is the problem, that's the only thing I can pull out.

I don't care for the fuel tank size, this was a homologation thing.

It's 70 liters.

It's huge.

It takes 700 kilometers for me to go through a tank, so it's 400 and something miles.

And I just would like a smaller tank so I can go through the gas quicker because California

gas especially goes off.

I think there's something wonderfully luxurious you're actually using a car about having

a lot of range.

Yeah.

I like having a lot of range.

But to me the only other real negative is the nonlinearity of the controls, so use the

throttle and Mercedes.

That's very Mercedes thing, and I typically say...

When the holidays start to feel a bit repetitive, reach for a sprite winter spiced cranberry,

and put your twist on tradition.

A bold cranberry and winter spiced flavor fusion, sprite winter spiced cranberry is a refreshing

way to shake things up this sipping season and only for limited time, sprite, obey your

thirst.

Oh, well, it's just Mercedes is how they did things.

So the big steering wheel, it's just Mercedes is how they did things, you know, weird things

like the wipers being on the turn signal stock and not having the ability to do a single

swipe, right?

It's, you know, on law.

They added that later to a switch assembly that looks the same, but actually has that functionality.

The C43 does that.

Yeah.

So they figured that with a small push on the side of a gentle push, if you do a full

push, it does the washer.

It's just, it's those little things that I say, well, it's just a Mercedes-m, like, you

know, for example, a becker radio that, you know, so many people hate, I actually adore

it.

I like the radio, it's usable.

But there's just, there's a lot of cars we have to say, well, this is just the way

Mercedes did it, and once you understand that there was a reason why they did it, there

was an engineering reason, it makes sense.

When I was doing the research for that car, maybe we talked about this, but I learned

why that car is a conventional parking brake, where no other Mercedes does.

Was it not enough room in the pedal box for four pedals, why, I mean, remember that the

car is tiny.

It's smaller than a, there is no sit-in on sale in America that's anywhere close to

this small.

And yet you, if with the seat all the way back, I can't even come close to reaching the

pedals.

It's a, it's a very bizarre.

Yes, the back seat, however, and they'll have no more legs, but yeah, oh yeah, because

the, the front seat touches the back seat when it's all the way back.

But yeah, the, that's it for the bads.

I mean, the good is not just good.

It's the chassis balance is still the best front engine rear-drive car I have ever driven

in terms of front to rear chassis balance.

I love the design, and I don't mean the styling, I mean, the design, how well-thought-out

every little detail and simple and elegant and beautiful it is.

Sidebar, briefly here.

When you say, understeer and oversteer, you're referring to the, which axle let's go first

when you're departing control.

I was reading a bunch of old 50s magazines, and the definition of understeer and oversteer

appears to have been different back then.

To that one person who didn't understand.

Sorry.

Well, it's a vestige, I think, of bias-ply tires, which is to say they're talking about

the difference between how much you're steering and where the wheels are pointed, and they're

saying that the car is understeering.

If you're doing a sort of drifting situation, where the, the wheels are pointed one way

and the car is traveling another way, and so not another way, but it's, if the front

wheels are doing that, it's, yeah, but you could be in a four-wheeled drift and still have

this be occurring.

So they're saying, they were using it to describe how much steering input you needed to maintain

a constant radius corner or turn, and what the, it's basically scrub angle, it's, I was

going to say, they're describing scrub angle.

And so they would describe that as an understeering car, if you had to have a lot of scrub angle

on a car in order to maintain a constant radius, which is an interesting, and I encountered

in two different magazines, I was, I'm doing research on a car from the 19th century.

Same writer?

No.

Different magazine.

Different writers.

But I was thinking about how this definition has changed over time of various terms that

are used in cars.

Yeah.

I mean, the conventional definitions, understeer, in a corner, the front axle loses grip

before the rear, and oversteer, sorry, the way, and what you're doing is describing whether

there's, it's actually over yaw, right?

So it's over yaw or under yaw, which is the car's yawing more than I've asked it to,

the front wheels are asking to.

Yeah.

But anyway, that was neither here nor there.

I love about the Mercedes that it feels so incredibly solid, but weighs 2,845 pounds

with a full tank, a huge full tank of gas in it, the engineering, the engine note and

the ride.

I think that car is just spectacular from start to finish.

Yeah.

It's all the things that we like about Mercedes of this era.

Yeah.

Okay.

That's, I mean, that's gets today for me.

Let me continue on with Sako era Mercedes since it's on the topic.

Yeah.

I only have the one.

You have probably 72.

I have the E320 wagon.

It's everything that we like about Sako era Mercedes-Benz's, I mean, yeah, it's just very,

the utility and the quality and the engineering and the fact that you can do some improbable hustling

in the same way that you can in R129, I think the design is mega cool.

Obviously, I'm particularly fond of the spec of my particular car, but even our service

wagon, which is an automatic, you know, white version of the same car, it's the last,

it's a 300TE, but it has the M104.

In 93, you could get the 300E and 300TE.

So it is a 24-vowels?

So it's functionally it's an E320.

Right.

So a 3.2 liter.

Yes.

And your spec for those who don't follow is a purple, is it purple manual, slick top, sports

seats, sport line dog leg with the AMG 3.6 swap.

So this is a 3.6 liter 24-vowel variable valve timing, 7,000 RPM, 270 horsepower, rear wheel

drive, dog leg, differential lock.

Yeah.

What the fuck else could you say, I know.

I know.

Jesus Christ.

What's colors interior?

Black.

Black leather.

So it could have a cool plate.

That's one day.

Yeah.

That's the only thing that would make that car spec cooler would be a third row.

It does not have a third row.

Okay.

That was a two thing.

I personally like sunroofs, but I think people appreciate slick talks, slick talks.

Yeah, because all the US cars have sunroofs, so to find one without just the same way

with power.

There's also the guy deleted their roof rails on your car, right?

Yeah.

The previous owner.

So they came, I think you could get them without rails in Europe.

So yeah, it just looks long.

It has, it doesn't have the strips on the roof.

You're on the strips, but it has the rails.

The rails.

Okay.

I think that is one of the hottest cars ever.

I will say I don't, I never thought the rear end, the rear end of the 124 Sedan, I do believe

to be one of them.

It's that glitterfully.

Yes.

I agree.

The 80s and 90s.

The wagon lessso.

It's just a wagon.

Yeah, it's just a wagon.

It's not objectionable, but it doesn't, it's not like a highlight of the back of the

car, of the styling of a car the way from the recorder of that car.

Yeah.

Yeah, because not only do you get with the Sedan, the wedge, sort of the high rear, the line

which you also get on the 190, would you also get with the, I guess in the Africans

call the, oh, you're talking about the taper.

I'm talking about the attack and all sort of hip line, which is the envelope shape on

the back of the car.

The trunk lid is, is this one diagonal line that goes from the bumper to the top corner

and it's all, and it defines the shape of the trunk lid and the tail lights and the rear

fender all at once, which is pretty cool, but it looks like at the back of an envelope

because it's got the diagonal lines.

So yeah, I mean, I think that it's impossible, I guess for me to be objective about it,

but there's reason why I keep coming back to these silly cars.

Anything I don't like about that car, same complaint about the 190, the gear change is kind

of like, you know, it's a little boomy inside also, which is a station wagon thing, you

know, I wish that it were a little more refined, although I guess that's very normal station

wagons, because I think when Motor Week was testing it, they were like, it's so refined

and not boomy for a wagon, so I think it's just relative.

Yeah, I mean, you're a long fuselage, yeah, and it's just a big resonance chamber over

the rear axle.

Okay.

I have nothing to say.

I think that car's the coolest thing ever.

Yeah.

Okay.

Just why I went through all the trouble to get it.

Where are you going?

Almost.

I must go to my wagon then.

Oh, yeah.

And that's transition.

So I combined both of my 30s, Beatrice, who was in the studio last week, which is a 325

I sat down, and then my 325 I wagon, which I've had for 20, almost 23 years, kind of hard

for me to be objective about that.

However, I, you know, there'll be 30s and I've had a bunch of them.

The wagon has a 2.7 liter block in it, so it's basically a stroked 2.5, more torque

at idle than the Beatrice has at the peak, and then the 2.5 had at the peak, otherwise,

and they both have suspension.

Shock springs, shocks and springs on the wagon, shocks, springs, bars, reinforcement,

you name it, everything on Beatrice plus camber plates.

Actually, they both have camber plates, but ever, slightly modified.

Stock exhaust on both of them, a cam on the wagon that gave me one horsepower at the

wheels.

I was very mad about that.

Fuck you, Shrik.

Okay.

Do you, I mean, I'll start this one.

Good about a 30s steering feel, bad about a 30s steering speed.

Their steering ratio on that car was notoriously slow.

It's not a big fan of the position, either.

The wheel is high and angled away from you, so it's sort of school bus.

Like the mirror.

Yeah, school bus, but like you're sitting below the school bus.

You can fix the steering gear, which I absolutely did on both of those cars.

They both have.

A Z3.

The wagon has an E36 M3 racquet, Beatrice has a Z3 1.9 sport racquet, so one, it went from

3.4 turns lock to lock to 3.4 in the wagon and 2.9 in Beatrice, and the steering feel

is just off the charts.

To me, the E30 exists because of the M20, that is 12 valve low compression straight 6.

The noises it makes are among my favorite in the automotive universe.

I love that it's kind of love that it's dead below 3 grand, and then gradually builds

between 3 and 4, and then it's an absolute psychopath for a tiny little window from 5 to 6,500,

and then hits the limiter, like it's the best, and it's one of the best sounding limiter.

It just defines limiter.

I love the overall cohesiveness and enjoyability of those cars, defined by the engine but not.

They didn't forget about everything else.

There's a rightness to those cars that to me is the quintessential representation of

what BMW is dynamically.

It just feels natural to me, and the E36 has this, the E46 less so, but yeah, it just feels

right to me.

I will roast it for the quality.

My first car was an E28, five series, and some of the peripheral trim and interior trim,

and putting stuff together and taking it apart again, it's just like, my first car, I didn't

know better, and then I got on Mercedes, and I was like, oh my God, I mean, that's the

thing, I'm judging it against the, it's competitor to be fair.

Yeah, there's a Mercedes-Benz.

That was probably 40% more expensive.

Yes, correct.

And you can understand why, but like the screws that hold the grills in are made of plastic,

and so if you take them in and out too many times, you lose the heads of the screws, not

any thirties.

Oh, on E28 they are, and like the door trims and the way that they're put together and

all that stuff, it's just, it's not a little bit, and that the feel of the door handle

when the part that touches your finger, you could feel that it's cast out of like some

kind of pop metal or something like that.

There's just a bunch of touch points that don't feel very nice.

I will say that every time I work on the two of them.

So driving them, work on them together, there's no question, the 201 Mercedes, which is

the direct competitor for the E30, is a dramatically better built car, but the E30 is so much nicer

to work on.

I curse the Mercedes, you know, Mercedes didn't build in repair, repair ability to the design

of this car clearly, because everything has a pain in the ass, all of it.

I don't think I've done a single job on that fucking car, and then the car barely,

I mean, it's barely ever broken in 13 years, and I've had two previous 190s, and they

were all reliable and wonderful, but every, I curse them every time I work on them, where

the, and then my 202 and then my 129, they were all pain in the ass, the E30 is a brace.

Nothing is that difficult to work on.

Interesting.

And I had the entire front subframe out of one of those cars in 22 minutes with a friend

once.

We can try that in a fucking Mercedes.

I just don't like the experience of turning screws on BMWs as much as I like the experience

of turning screws on Mercedes.

I got it.

The big thing on the E30's, the back seat is, it's a stadium seat, you're sitting on

top of the gas tanks, and there's no headroom, the back seat is miserable, and it shouldn't

be, because the, you know, the Mercedes is the same size, and the big, the seat is,

yeah, and they put this, the gas tank behind the seat, which in fact stops them from having

full-down seats, which means you can't have a wagon, and you can't put anything in it.

So I guess, you know, it could poison.

But there, you know, in terms of ride quality, no contest between the Mercedes and BMW.

In terms of limit handling, no contest, the BMW just gets crucified.

The Mercedes, I have not done a single thing to the suspension of that car, and BMWs, both

of them, have touched.

So from the factory, they're softer squishy, they're lovely, but they're semi-trailing

arms, so they will bite you, so you gotta be careful of that.

And then the steering is so slow, that when they bite you, you have no chance of correcting.

And so it's a recipe for spinning into a tree, so I fixed it with stiffer springs and

different shocks, and then faster steering on both those cars.

And then they turn into magnificent drivers cars, with not as much linearity of controls

as two other cars on my list, but that's, you know, the other car.

But the overall, I give E30 as an A-minus as a sort of overall consumer product.

You know, if consumers were expecting luxury cars, that's definitely not what an E30 is.

But as a well-built, well-constructed sports sedan, I think it was the benchmark.

Yeah, I agree with that.

I will transition while we're on this subject of small German sedans, I guess I will do

my daily, which is the C43.

My only, I have two real complaints about it, but overall, I quite like it.

I like the engine, I like the dimensions, I like the turning radius, I like the sort

of combination of smallness with V8 noises, it's just this unusual combination of things

all together that feel athletic, this is when AMG started to, I think, gel their philosophy.

And so the car has really, like, initially feels very dramatically aggressive throttle response,

which makes the car feel, you know, maybe faster than it does.

And it changes the feel of the car in this really appreciable way that isn't just like

we're going to put more power in the car, we're actually going to change some of its

characteristics.

And I think, like, in terms of the powertrain, that works well, the gearbox is very

happy to do downshifts, and it characterizes to me why I would really like a 5-speed in

the R129, because the 4-speed automatic in those cars is so sort of like dim-witted and

traditional, yeah, lazy.

But no way the 5-speed in an SL is programmed to be as aggressive as the C43 AMG.

Probably not, yeah.

That's true.

And the transmission on an SL might be kind of fun, I think.

Yeah.

I mean, I've also, I had a C43 AMG that I miss.

It's the only automatic car that I've ever truly loved.

And my favorite part of that automatic is you know someone was sitting in Germany going,

whereas they have paid some money for a V8 engine in this tiny little sedan.

And so clearly they don't give one schnitzel-schreiser about any fuel economy bullshit.

So we rev the shit out of this little fucker.

I mean, I've never had an automatic that's so willing to just 4 grand, 4 grand, 4 grand in

normal driving.

There's no reason for it to rev the shit out of the motor the way it does, because it's

got that beautiful, big, broad torque curve.

And yet it does.

And so you paid for the V8 and you're getting a noise.

I love that about it.

Yeah.

I agree.

I love that about that car.

It's just such a useful, wonderful, all-around car, and for me it was like a cheap way to

drive a 500E, but I think it's more athletic than a 500E.

That spirit is more lively than a 500E because it's that much newer and has that AMG philosophy

more clearly presented, whereas the 500E is more of a Mercedes philosophy, the traditional

Mercedes philosophy.

So I, in some respects, quite a few prefer it to driving a 500E.

Me too.

Actually, considerably.

Yeah.

I mean, just the steering weight alone.

Again, another car that you wouldn't better not miss on day, because the steering is crazy

heavy and crazy talkative for Mercedes, yeah.

That's true.

I mean, yeah.

I mean, it's Porsche weighting, if it's…

Yes.

Yeah.

I don't notice it, but I guess it's because I drive it every day.

My complaints are too about that car.

Let me guess.

Go ahead.

Ride quality?

Yeah, of course.

Ride like shit.

Yeah.

I don't know.

Why should a Mercedes, and the body control isn't that good?

Why does it have sort of like Mercedes, sort of fairly casual body control, and also ride

like shit?

Yeah.

I just don't think AMG knew what they were doing at that point at that point in time.

One of the few people just put standard C230 shocks in it, where they're like…

No, those springs.

You think it's really heavy spring rates?

Yeah, they're crazy.

I mean, I did the springs in my car, because it was lowered, and I had to unlower it.

And so I bought factory springs, and I thought, like, I bought a really big, tough, strong

borrowed, a really big, tough, strong spring compressor, and I thought the thing was going

to fucking shatter.

I've no spring rate on that car, which was like, I don't remember what it was.

Outdoor readjusts.

Well, I think that's the same.

Outdoor readjusts.

I prefer that in the car.

Am I do some magick stock C230 or something?

Oh, yeah.

I prefer C36.

I don't remember riding like that, actually.

I never drove C36.

I can't remember.

It's been so long.

It's also big wheels with small, soft walls.

You can put 18ths.

People do put 18ths on the website.

Am I had 18ths on the website?

I don't even want to.

I got it.

18ths and it was slammed.

Long car 17ths, which are stock 17ths, and that should be the maximum cushion.

They're Michelin in all seasons. They're not like some absurd

I know

No, it's just it's impact harshness. It's not once you're moving. Yeah, it does the same thing my 964 does

Which is once you're moving. It's becomes fluid and maybe even slightly under controlled, but yeah

All right, so those speed impacts that's one of them my second huge bitch

Which I don't think you're gonna share is that it's kind of an open diff. Yeah, so roast one tire

Yeah, I know where it would be nice to definitely have that

That's the one thing. It's really missing from a performance standpoint

That car at you know 910s is really quite good a 1010s

You're just fucking incinerating it inside tire

And then build quality. Yeah, build quality was my oh really was my other

Okay, yeah

It's any of the parts of that car that are post facelift 202

Yeah, anything that changes the first gen is is not nearly as nice as we would expect from Mercedes

There's some yeah, there's just some sort of plasticky stuff that is

regrettable

But overall and what a car the fundamental engineering and all the sort of like salt based mechanical stuff

It's all really nice that car lost every comparison test and they all got it wrong

I mean the E36 M3. I think is one of the is my favorite M3 so that's tough comparison and

B5 S4. I don't know right. I don't know. I mean they just the part part of the problem was that it was you know

$20,000 more than in E36 M3 because E36 M3 was

$50,000 instead of like 37 or something

It's 54. Yeah, yeah, so it's 20 18,000 dollars more expensive

But it was automatic only yeah, and so that was that that really is the real reason why I lost was

Kind of car right the M3 is just not it's not a competitor to the M3

It's a no they're both small hot sedans that normally compete against each other

So it's natural to put the hot ones against each other

But they have fundamentally different philosophies that underpin them

Okay

All right, we go to my cross plane V8 powered

car in 1980 rover sd1 which you also owned yes a third of for

Brief period of time. Mm-hmm. How about it? Just just go don't don't go easy

break-over angle

Well, okay, so I hope with the new springs that it's gonna raise it by the two inches up

Okay, so it scrapes on everything it scrapes some places that like the Ferrari doesn't scrape on it

I think you could like you could probably get a fucking kernigs egg over a driveway that this thing was scraped on

But that's not it's okay fault. All right, um but break

You just you should have just stopped at a break because they are known to do a lot of that

But it hasn't really and I don't think they don't generally it seems like I mean the survival rate if they haven't rusted

It's pretty good on those cars

um

You know actually the thing that I'm I compare it to

Which I think it did compete against in period is my Citroen and it's sort of a little bit conventional and dull compared to the Citroen and that's not

In period that shouldn't affect how it performs in comparison tests because people are just using it to get places

But to me now since they cost kind of the same amount of money

The the Citroen is such a like overwhelming like holy shit experience of just weirdness

And the the rovers sort of come conventional by comparison experientially and so maybe that's my

My roast the other thing is that it's just kind of the interior is so shitty. It's painfully shitty

um

Which I guess just is

But you could you could say the same thing about a ranger over the same period it doesn't bother me in that car

So it's not really a gripe

I think now it doesn't affect your enjoyment of the car. It's just part of this sort of hilarity of the experience

Um

I'm just trying to think I wish it were faster

Yeah, it's low. Yeah, it's very slow

um

This is a tough one because I

As a consumer product

I don't think it was all that good um, you know, that gets a solid seat pretty decent

I mean it's a solid seat like people liked it quite well when it was when it was new and it was like a credible

Realistic choice. Yeah, so what it does well first of all I love I adore the way it looks right?

I mean it was and how does it ride the way it does with a live rear end? That's the other thing well and

and

Blown front shocks with springs that have sacked up front at least two inches

So we'll find out what what it what it's really made of when I put the new shocks and springs in it that I just that I just got

um

Thank God for Rimmer Brothers this I'm a terrible name for a company. I'm sure their name is Rimmer

But like I just keep getting packages from Rimmer Brothers and I expect the UPS guy to just be like

You hoe

Okay, so I adore the way it looks

I have a lot of positive memory structures associated with this car so I can't be really objective

But sitting in that driver seat the view of that

Momo knockoff Ferrari steering wheel the Ferrari gate is knockoff gauges. It's just a designer imposter's

Ferrari from the front. I

Love that experience. I just adore it. It's got a great driving position

And that's the end of the goods. I mean, it's just fine like I was just looking at it underneath. It's just fine

Yeah, that's right the engine is as pleasant the gear changes the gear change is pretty good

Yeah, actually the gear change I forward the mission for sure. It's far better than the Citroën's

I think it's I mean it's bolt rifle. I think that that's

Fantastic gear change um, but you know, I it handles like

Absolute shit and I don't know what shocks and springs and tires or whatever. So I just got rid of the terrible

Combo's that were on it um, and it's getting

Fredicine

We're not sponsored anymore. So I can you know, you can all stop pitching about this Fredestine spring classics on it

So I'm curious to see what the difference that makes

But it just is absolutely not sponsored anymore. Well, they just chose to say certain number of I'm kidding

Making for the people were like, you know, well the Fredestine tires. They were really good stuff

And by the way, you could learn of something so anyway

It looks like absolute shit. I mean no grip whatever

So I'll see what happens

But I was under the car because I was about to do the shocks and springs

And I look and you know every strut it's got a strut front end and then a rear

Solid rear with Watts linkage and just the best of what you can get for a solid rear axle basically

Basically the stuff that was used all the way through the S197 Mustang

I was you know, this is the final iteration of solid rear axle

But every car ever made in my in the world according to Jason with a strut front suspension

Has a shaped lower control arm. So it's you know, it's a it's a two

It's either an a shape or it's some some combination of two links

That triangulate and hold the ball with the peak is where the wheel is right so that's the ball joint the wheel

And then the top so it's triangulated at the bottom and the top is just the upper shock tower the mount this only has one

There's nothing holding that fight nothing

Locating that front with that wheel front to front to back except the Fungan sway bar

So the sway bar, which is a flexible by nature piece of metal has a bushing in it that probably provides

I don't know one percent as much front to rear locating power as it does a triangulated control arm would

But I just looked at this going how does it how the

Fuck did they race this car like because they race them and they did quite well

I would love to see what the undersides of those look like. I don't how the held you one control arm

I mean, it's just the most

Under idiotic like underachieved like cost cut. Oh, there's good enough. Well, you know

How was there no crime in the UK when all the cops drove these cars you hit one

Like I can't imagine you could hit a curb and anything would survive it would just buckle the hot whatever. I found it amazing

I love how fast this steering is. It's 2.9 turns. I think locked to lock which is unheard of in 1976. Yeah

um

And I love how absolutely enormous it is inside. I mean, I know there's no structure you can tell driving it

But there's like you fold down the seats and you could probably put a

Double size bed there and just sleep comfortably in that car. It's huge inside wide and vast and

Yeah

That's it everything else is terrible. I mean, it's slow. It's you know, it's just I mean

The standards for family car performance were so much lower back then

You know, that's just if I think about it though that car is a 1980 and my cause worth Mercedes is 1985

Yeah, but that was like a hot rod like world-beating car. I mean look at what a regular like a BTC and DTM

Yeah, I mean that because you can easily get like a zillion more horsepower out of the Rover engine

And that was a US spec one also. I mean, they just they feel genuinely like a fairly sporting

Car yeah among the choices you could make as a family car

I mean like my Citroen feels plenty peppy and allegedly has like 104 horsepower

Like that was sort of normal for a car in that class, you know the the BMW

528 was like holy shit

It's a hot rod and has a hundred and seventy horsepower that was kind of just the space for executive cars was that kind of

And if you look at the the numbers back in the eight so the Rover wanted to production in 1986

And so, you know, I do compare it to something like a 190 that was only six years later at the W201

And the cars do so they're really six years apart. They do feel 40. Well, that's for say spends for you

Yeah, the fair fair point but even the E30 was 1982

Same year, and that's really an update of this of the 2002 and I just think that 2002 the O2 lineage was or an E21

It's just vastly past the what the Rover did dynamically, but it was vast. Well, that is the benchmark the BMW

He's a benchmark for sporting intent

I mean the Rover is kind of a pedestrian car. You have to start comparing it to like your PS4

Two left and they're golf European Ford granadas

No, I'm just saying that if the comparison is not a BMW because that's like a sporting car and that

Category and Mercedes is like really expensive. You want to do a proper comparison

It should be against like a granada or some vox hall that you and I have never heard of or something like that

Okay, all right, but yeah, it doesn't make it good

It just means I mean I sort of I like how different it is and all my other car so I enjoy it

But it's not you know, not because it's a good a triumph of what is a triumph, but I don't think it's a triumph of consumer

Literally triumph did most of the industry. Let's do this my Citroen. No, since it's a competitor

Grypes it's kind of just shittily made, you know, yeah

It's stuff like interior trim and sort of like

Yeah, it's like the quality of the actual

Materials is sort of somewhat mediocre

Everything about it. It's just so weird. I think I cannot get over is how on earth over a million people

Experience that car and then we're like yeah, I'm gonna buy this and use it as a car. Well, they were French

I mean

97,000 of the million. Yeah, I guess it's a it's bizarre

Yeah, and it delivers this outrageous experience for not much money

And so I think as a value in in the same way that the Honda beat does this right the Honda beat is like

Forward the dollars. It's an incredible experience and I think that's true of the Citroen as well

You are you are never gonna see another one driving by you on the road

Yeah, and no matter how many other cars you've driven if you've never driven a Citroen

Then you will get into this car and you will be like what the fuck

And the passengers people who have no interest in cars also do that. They facades go

The fuck because there's things that you don't need to be a car person to experience like sitting in the backseat and

Fumping down three and a half feet into yeah into like crystal softest cushiest experience you could possibly have or a single

Spoke steering wheel or the the drum type gauges just

Everything the fact that's a hatchback, but it's not

Yeah, there's just all this stuff and so I like the sort of you don't have to be a car person to appreciate that car

And well, you can't be a driver to appreciate the way it drives

Yeah, it's yeah, I mean it's the thing about it. It's much enjoyable is that not ride quality

But yeah, everything else about it is absurd. It rides really well

Yeah, really well

Unlike anything I've ever driven

um

There has to be something

There must be something that's another Citroën

I mean what it has is the sort of rise of all the DS

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's to me the thing it rides most like as a DS

Well, it's got a little bit more structure than a DS in fact

In the sense that it has a roof that does something and the DS the roof is just this fiberglass piece that's screwed on to the

Top of the windshield

The uh the way that's but yeah, I mean it has more structure, but it doesn't have much structure

I think that car is cool. I think it's it's so not

um me because dynamically like the steering is you know

Connected to another car somewhere like it doesn't oh, it's devoid of feel like they actively sought to remove feel from it

And it's self-centered. It's just bizarre the whole car is bizarre

I like it because it's bizarre. Oh, but it is a dynamic disaster. Yes

That's not what it is for yeah, but it's not what it I mean what it what it's there is to transport you in

Weird French suppleness. Yes, um, it's really cool for that that purpose

Yeah, it is um it is very typically French. I think that

It is this sort of it transforms

This is so French right it transforms getting places into a sort of like philosophical

examination

But why must the delight be red there? Yes, it's so much that it's so much a professor incredibly like sort of like

But why should this be or why shouldn't this be you know it really challenges

And it makes it a very sort of aesthetic sensorial experience right it's

Very strange. I think it's cool, but I would never ever

I mean, but I guess it is very similar to the rover not only in size shape and you know

Mission mission and get their competitors in the market

But in that they both kind of drive like shit and we typically like cars that drive really well

Yes, and it's kind of nice to have a car that just isn't about that

Yeah, it's a car that transports you to an altogether different place and mindset and it's unmatched for that I think

That's cool. I can't say more. I mean some of the detail like the the the window

So

There's like a round surround to the the window

Winding things and the buttons and the door handles that around it's just there's some beautiful detailing the art deco

The hand the place where your hand goes when you pull the door handles a perfect circle

Yeah, there's a lot of neat stuff interesting stuff. I have nothing to do with being the car and just do it

There's an object exactly

Okay

All right, I have your your mark one well the mark one twins which we can combine and then the

850 do you have one or two left? I have I think one

Okay, well then then what I'll do is let me do the beyond the a 31 and then we can we'll go to our

longest relationships

Okay, so this is my 1991

1994 BMW 850 CSI only have this one for a year

um a bit of a lifelong dream to own of e12 and to own an e31 and um you've spent some time in it

um

I like the fact that it can dance like a BMW

very much

I told you you're gonna I told them you were gonna sugar coat this

uh honest you go and strike for the I like no stopping in Californian

Because I know you there must have very strong opinions on this car

I think that when david oh god when david david said everyone should have a v12

I really feel like it should be an italian v12 that has all the sort of magic of italian v12

And to me the the v12 in that car is nice and enjoyable but it doesn't

do italian v12 things and so it doesn't quite get me where I need to be on v12 front

Did you're british? No, absolutely not also not it absolutely did not either

It's just it does the thing that right 12 cylinder engines are virtuous for various reasons and one of the virtues

Is that they're incredibly smooth running and so in the these cars and this you know originated in in a luxury car

They the refinement and smoothness and sort of effortlessness and torque and all that is what makes them be v12y

and

I think as car enthusiasts v12 experience

Has to also include to be the best v12s that we enjoy like this sort of insane

Sportingness that is just

Unmatched by anything else and so I I know it's not reasonable to expect the eight series to do that but not it's a v12

I mean let's be honest we did a whole episode on v12s and we sort of came to the conclusion that we never said it this way

But I think it's safe to characterize them as the don't meet your heroes in most cases

Yeah, because they're not as good as you think they are

They're typically not as good sounding inside the car as they are outside

They tip and most of them are just kind of muted and not particularly characterful

Like I don't think this is worse than a v8 or anything else you could get in this car

It's not like it's bad. It's just it doesn't do this magical v12 thing that I think that

David D. Davis was probably talking about when he wrote that

interesting

The rest of the car

I think it's I like it. It's

It's this thing I always have with BMWs that it's not a Mercedes in terms of like the way it's turned out

But it maybe it doesn't need to do that. It's it's it's I enjoy it. I do like it

And I like that it can hustle in a way that the Mercedes does not feel natural doing and especially the computer transmission

Yes, also true. I agree with that 100% as well. Right. I mean, so I wanted a v12

Yeah, I did not want a car that can't

Go on a back road and can't hustle and doesn't move doesn't drive well, but just happens to have a v12

And so you do that plus you limit it to manual transmissions because yeah, there's no options v12 vantage

v12 vantage s

Yeah, I look I like the six feet. Okay, I'm fine. I hear that. Yeah, so I sort of I had no choice

But it was whittled down to this one thing and I was a little bit no choice but to buy this car

It could not be avoided. There was no way

If I if I if I stated my state of goal was to own a v12 with short a short geared manual transmission

That's it

Yeah, that's it. I mean, yes, the some of the Ferrari stuff. I but I don't particularly careful them

So you know, which for what so yeah, this is a good way to characterize this which Ferrari 12 cylinder cars would I rather drive than the 850 CSI?

I think the 365

The croissette that you you let me drive

Um was enough of an experience that if I could get a coupe version of it, but I don't particularly care for the way they look

Yeah, I would say so 400 would be

Yeah, there would be no fuel injected for our I might like to own a 512 TR more, but I don't think I would like to drive it more on a twisty road

Uh, I would like an F50 and I mean you have to get to an F50 before you're like what Ferrari

What fuel injected 12 cylinder Ferrari would I rather drive on a hus on a twisty road than the 850 CSI?

And I think it does come to the F50 so you got to spend how many five million dollars? Yeah, okay

That's this is the yeah problem, right? And if I had five million dollars, I probably have a 28HT on set

So that's that's a different story, but yeah, I

It was a potential for a huge letdown right because I bought the car

Not having spent any time I like striving it more than I thought I was going to I so it exceeded my expectations

I mean my immediate response when I get in the car always is the starter sound is the best in the automotive business

I don't I can't think of a any starter and any car ever that sounded better than this

It's certainly in the group of the best if not the best

um

Now that I

Unfucked the sound situation by putting really loud Ferrari mufflers on it. I adore the way it sounds

Not so insane in the car. Yes. I guess that's my right, but if you drive it around with the windows down

And sort of are in normal driving you hear it echoing off of everything and it's just it's the right noise for the car

I don't love the shifter. It's a bit long throw and sort of you know typical BMW stuff

It feels like a BMW shifter and and so the rest of it sort of the rest of the interior like the whole interior is like it feels like a seven series

It's it's a big sort of luxury car

But the non-linearity of the throttle drives me crazy like it

Doesn't drive you crazy. It takes a bit for me to get used to because it will ignore blips off of idle if you're

Out of the idle circuit is what I've decided is the the trick if you're you know if any foot on the gas at all and over 1200 RPM or whatever

It will blip really nicely

But if you're if you're not really if you're not giving it a big huge whack of throttle for a much longer time than you need to

It will just flat out ignore it and this is the first

Drive-by-wire system in the world and I think that's what's going it's either that or engine management

E30 is the same way. E30 is not a very blipable engine

I have a really light flywheel on the wagon and there's a delay and it will under two 2500 RPM

It will just completely ignore you and their H50s the same just worse

um, but other than that I am

Kind of I'm driven the car in like two months

It's been said probably sitting

But I just haven't a chance, but I I'm I kind of love the way it drives

I adore the way it looks. I like the way it smells. Yeah

It's a hell of an experience and and then it does M

It feels like an E36 M300 back road. Yeah, there is also something

You know you historically have issued

Well, but and this car is short geared, but it all has a tall cruising sixth and

You have historically issued sort of big fast high-speed touring cars

And I think there's something really luxurious about having in a car that effortlessly cruises at high-speed

That has a lot of power reserve

And so I think that experience is pretty enjoyable as well. I mean, I have a book ended right so I have the long-legged

long-sixth gear

V12

850 CSI and then the Honda beat which is overwhelming at 60 miles an hour with no power reserve and way too much noise and way too many revs

So but yeah, I see I see the point I see the appeal

But I don't typically like automatics and so that's typically most of those sort of long-legged GT cars

Well, yeah, if you go to the like era when they were really prevalent

You get to like the 1960s and then you have like

You know two plus two Ferraris. This is the era out of well the 928 was kind of the end of this era

But like the the 60s astins and stuff like that

You know cars that kind of define in modern mines not modern mines. Geriatric mines. What what a GT is

Um

Last to go to our our babies our favorites. It's not

I don't know that I'd characterize mine this way actually

But you you should therefore or do you want to finish on that sort of without it?

Emotional

For me, it's a tool or this is your Porsche my Porsche 964. Okay. It is a tool

It's a device to go do one of my favorite activities

But it's the one car that you can't seem to live without isn't it?

Yes, because it's a car that what else could I find that I would enjoy doing that mission more with

Uh, and there isn't really one but there are definitely things about it. I would change for sure

There I could we've discussed this on a previous there's basically nothing about the car you haven't changed

Yeah, so would you own a stock at a bone stock 964?

Yes, I would but I would admit there are there's only one thing that I think is really important to change on it

Which is that this I think it's a little bit under controlled for the US suspension at the US ride height

And so I would want to put a set of coilovers on it

That is if I if I you could you know if I could change one thing only and that had to leave it alone

That's the one thing I would change

On that car and I'd probably want to do wheels too, but but I don't know if I could only do one thing

It would be coilovers, okay, and I would find one that had 17s from the factory on it

I would like to I would like to drive a 964

fully stock so I've driven two of them yours

You're very very very modified car and also that sacrilege motor is EV

And I quite like that sacrilege car

Chassis wise, I think more than yours and I maybe I just need to spend more time the suspension is more expensive than mine

In that car. Yeah, but also mostly it's a good suspension expensive suspension tends to be

Well-sorted and I don't like well. I like cars that move around a lot

My car is very buttoned down because really buttoned down and it could be that I had just come from

You know when I did drive it on a back road. I just come from my

Batchit cars, and so they're going to be muted. Yeah, I like about my car the fact that

It is an old car

But it has enough tire and suspension and brake that I can keep up with any modern car

On a tight enough road like on a second third gear road

And so I like the fact that I can surprise guys in modern cars

But it also has like a vintage car experience characteristic to it

And so it exists for me as a car as my

911 because it perfectly

Sits in at the intersection of old and new

You know experientially I prefer older cars and I periodically find myself like shopping for older 911s because I think they're a little more exciting

But then I would need more than one 911 if I did that and I can't do that

So I have the one that sort of is the happy compromise between

Modern capability and it has ABS and has huge brakes and it has four Ss on it and

You know, so it can really do everything they really want to do although have you ever really been able to lose me in this in the

30 of the troco no, but you're you're kind of

insane and

Fuck you kind of insane. I'm sorry to man comprehensively. Thank you

And I like having I guess a little bit more margin than you you're always driving at 11 tenths

And I'm probably driving it the reason I always make you drive first is because you have ABS

And you have margin left over I can keep up with you because I'm following you and I'm looking at your brake lights

And I'm looking at your line and I can see what's going on

I there's no way that I could ever keep up with that car if that car wasn't in front of me

So that's that's the only reason. I'm not actually as insane as you think I am

And I can drive any of the cars at 11 tenths and and keep up with you

You know or ten or just ten tenths and keep up with you and laugh doing it

But it's only because you're in front of me and you have that margin

And so your brake lights gone. I'm already

Planning on how am I going to stop this skid? How am I going to get stopped? Where am I going?

And that's the only reason why we can do that. Yeah

I

So I yeah, I would like it to be a little bit less buttoned down

But then I wouldn't be able to surprise all the guys in modern GT3's which I have done before

You know guys and whatever modern car of 812's and

Whatever else on a twisty road they they just

It's the same pace more or less

So I like it for that. It's a little bit of a sleeper in that sense because people discount it because it's old

The first thing I would do if I had that 964 I don't I've never driven one on stock suspension

So I don't know where would rank if I had but would I would reroute that exhaust

I just can't yeah, I can't love vengeance. Yeah, it needs a 993 exhaust set up ways. It's a real turnout

Yeah, something it's just it's a flat engine note that never gets happy

In like very much like an STI. It just doesn't scream. Yeah, I agree with that and

It should rev higher to

Yeah, only versus sixty-seven season something like that. Yeah, that's my biggest complaint

About the car is that it needs

Because this is a recipe that is part of a 911 now that we in our modern construction of 911's which is from the last 20 years or so

Give him my 9 and 6 stock 9 and 6 without a sport exhaust. It's really

I mean rev to 72 but it you know it sort of had this orchestral riser to it's missing from your car

Yeah, and this is an artifact of the early emissions control systems

They only wanted to put one cat on it

And so they had to join the exhausts all up and then run them through a single cat and then out and that you end up with

These very unequal pulses that just never allows the thing to sing

And this car with a twin out which is what they did on the subsequent on the 993 I think would probably

Resolve that although 993's don't tell that great either. No, they don't

I'm sure if you set them up with the right exhaust system

I think it's the it's what the fundamental change engineering change that needs to happen before you can unlock goodness

I think if you put the right

Like mufflers on a 993 it probably would sound pretty good. Yeah, but anyway

That's the thing. That's the minus is the biggest minus for me

I would love to I would love to spend some more time

I would love to take your car for a couple laps of a track because I just it's

I don't I don't get why you love it so much. I really don't

We had a great time with it on the track

It was also very interesting to drive it against a 3.8 RS

Which is a much wider more planted car and my car felt very playful by comparison. It does feel playful on track. Okay, interesting

One day one day, hopefully we can do that

All right

My mark one twins. So this is my show mine as a tool. It's just a device that gets a job done

Which I don't think is the case for you. No, no, this is it. I mean, this is you know the show off

Is my number one period? It's the one that we'll never go. I would never even consider I've never once briefly considered selling it

piss me off

And the cabbie so the cabrile which is

Basically was bought as a beater

But then I realized I could have the the experience of the shorako without putting it in harm's way

So it's the same car. So they have the same to leader 16 valve same cam same intake same

Kind of everything all the same stuff the color same color

Sequence it only the cabbie has marked to recaro seats in it, which I think are the most comfortable

Most supportive seats ever possibly

They fit me perfectly the

And it has stock shorako 16 valve

Suspension and brakes and everything else on it the shorako by comparison has stock seats in it

But it has

Coilovers that were custom made for the car

And huge sway bars

So it's the same exact stuff just buttoned down

So the shorako is the buttoned down version of it the cabbies the sort of Lucy you see let's you know driving two and a half wheels lean over

Cabbies got the lotter exhaust so the cabbie is the way more playful car of the two

And it's actually more fun

also by virtue of the fact that that

Bitch basket sort of ad corruption as the Germans call it strawberry basket like no one expects that car to be able to move the way it does

And the hilarity of being in something that is basically a shrunken down g-wagon that will keep up with

Really fast sports cars on a back road at 45 degrees angle of roll is just a laugh actor

And so they are my favorites

so

Before I go into

specifics

I don't want you to be nice. I don't I think the

Knowing that you know having just admitted they are my favorites period

The harder you are

But the more honest because you

You try to be nice and I can see it in your face um, let's see

Do we want to start with no you you would characterize the lack of refinement of the power train as a good thing

The gear change is just stop being nice about that you just said I would characterize it as a nice thing

That implies that you wouldn't so why don't you talk about the lack of refinement describe it

And then tell me how you feel to tell the audience all the the nice people at home look at how uncomfortable he is

This is great

What you think of the refinement or lack complete and utter lack thereof. No, it's fine. I mean, it's an experience. It's it's um

I genuinely actually don't object to it. I object more to the shifter which is just like what shifter

It's just like

It's like a Porsche 915 everyone shits on those and the people deserve to shit on these for the same reason like

You have to know your way around that those gearboxes so well to know where everything is

Like there's this great graphic that I think

Yeah, I know this. Yeah, it was made for a 915

But there's like this sort of map of where the gears are all located and how to get them in and it's just like it's

It's like nope a little bit over here. Nope. No over here. Oh just is it in no?

No, no now, but nope still not in and like it's just every single gear is different and like the H pattern is like this like a collapsing sort of

italicized like

This one's drunken is wandering off the reservation like it's just

The gear linkage is hilariously bad and like but it's like the it's like the mirror once you learn where everything is

Then you're like, okay, well this one you just got to go over and make a left turn at albacoiki and then you find third gear

It's like it's so absurd

So you know, it's fine. I can reliably learn where they are

They're just not where you expect them to be and it's certainly not where the where the the legend on the top of the gear knob indicates they are if they were one

Um, there is on the shroko. You know what's the cabbie's got a good golf ball. Uh, I mean yeah and um, what else

One of my

My one of my least favorite things about the cabbie is just the noises that it makes it makes all these absurd noises

None of which have to do with the powertrain. They're all coming from like the interior or the chassis or the whatever

But it just it's uh, I have this video on my phone

I don't it doesn't really come across in video form really but there's just this

Cacophony of noises that come from the like interior and like maybe you get some some

Wheel hop to and uh, like I don't know

It just it feels like it's about to explode like not like the motor is going to explode or like there's going to be in

Uh, a fire explosion, but like the parts of the car all just going to distribute like all away from where you are at once into the environment

So that's probably it. I'm done

Okay, so I

Let me qualify some the shirako has this is mostly leveled at the cabbie the shirako is feels more

I mean the shirako has no structure whatsoever

So the fact that the cabbie can have some somehow less than half of that is a fucking miracle of modern engineering

Um, I mean the shirako has squeaks and rather that it's mostly the sunroof

But a one chassis cars don't have a lot of structure these were you know

This was the replacement for the Volkswagen Beetle and they were 16 to 1800 pounds in their base forms

And so and yeah, of course they're small but still 16, 17, 1800 pounds is not a lot and that's with an iron block force on

Um, and so these cars the shirako's 2356 the cabbie's 2299

um

The 2399 excuse me they are the heaviest variants because now they both have

Quick ratio power steering and they both have four wheel discs and they both have the shirako's got AC the cabbie doesn't

But they both have subwoofers and stereos in them. So they got heavier and heavier and heavier and heavier and heavier

These are the heaviest of the mark one chassis cars

Um, but don't let the 2300 pound fool you because the chassis of is that of a

Sucks hanging on the chassis. Yeah, it's just extreme a shit that's in there um

Yeah, the cabbie's got no structure whatsoever and the

fun of that is

If you can ignore that

um

The structure of the car seems to not affect how it drives

So even though there's a dynamic

Alignment change while you're driving as a shirako doesn't the cabbie does but it's not

It's you're also dealing with a

Barely mounted at all

Sort of twist beam

The idea of a twist suspension is well, it's the whole thing is moving in every direction at the same time

It's twisting to allow motion between the wheels and what the hell do you think that's gonna do?

It's gonna change a first of all the whole thing can pivot in every direction. There's no lateral

Strength at all. It's just why it's a front wheel drive car that you can get snapped over steer exactly

It's it's a skid steer right at the end of the day the back end is gonna try to follow the front

But each wheel is pointing in whatever direction it wants to and so

You got to be really careful with these cars and their snap over steer

But the idea you're a cabbie. Oh, yeah, but the fact that you can get a front wheel drive car

Once you learn to speak that car's language, right?

You can sort of get it to rotate in ways that most don't especially front wheel drive cars

I will give it that yes, and I think they're really fun. It's right exactly. Is it precise? No

Is it controlled? You know, but it's if once you learn to trust it. It's really fun

It's once you learn how what it's going to do in response to various inputs

Which it is very simple, which is like your change, right?

Well, you lift and it's going around you keep your front on the floor, and it's totally fine

You know, it doesn't really bumpstone upset it in the back in the front in the front they do in the back

It doesn't because it's got all this travel and it's Lucy. It's just basically a marshmallow back. It's kind of 9-11y

So yeah old 9-11y. Yeah, I mean to me the by the the cars are just fun. The steering is really talkative. I love

It's not particularly precise, but it's very talkative and then

You have to put a lot of structural bracing on it to get it to be even remote the precise, which it's also not and then

The the brakes are actually quite good. I will I will say that. No, it's the powertrain. I mean the it is

Is for as responsive as the Ferrari is with its carbs and the

V12 BMW is not and the e30s are not because of their

Ljet and even the beat with independent throttle bodies the beat is

Is too responsive on off throttle. It's too eager and it's impossible to be smooth

And it's just fucking manic and it's actually I must have missed that. That's my least favorite part of the beat

I could sell the beat because of how manic on off on off the throttle is

the the VWs are

Far more responsive than any of my other cars and their and their responses linear and it's immediate

And there's never any they don't buck they don't

Stumble it's perform

Really? Yeah, I mean the shirako when it's cold is a little grumpy. Oh yeah idling

Yeah, right right now there. That's a problem something's wrong

I don't I just ordered another set of spark plugs for it. No, it never used to do that

So that's that's an aging issue

In a Jason being a bad mechanic slash, you know

Not doing enough maintenance on the cars like you should have seen the plug wires that came out of that thing

They've crumbled in my hands and I'm like I just did them. They were like 21 years old

I was bad. So that's that's on me. No, but they you know

Certainly once they're warmed up. You can meter out power smoothly. They sound

Incredible

I

Mean I don't know of any other four cylinders that really make that kind of a noise, you know the alpha four cylinders make

nicer intake noise

But they don't make this anywhere close to this kind of power and they don't sound that good out the back or mechanically

And so I really do kind of hold them on a pedestal like I love the Cosworth Mercedes

There are a lot of other really great force drive a spicy 1600 with carbs sure I'd love to I mean I've driven

Regular 1600s and they're magical. They're beautiful, but they don't make

180 horsepower and they you know, okay, these are two liters. So maybe and the vibration is

Monumental. I mean these these are these cars are violent

But I love it. It's part of the experience on them

Because I'm not looking for a refined experience like if my 190 vibrated like that

I would call it an E30 M3 and I would hate it

the 190s four cylinders glass smooth

But it's you're in just a shitbox and what's the difference in the vibration between the E30 M3 and a Mark 1 Volkswagen

The Mark 1 Volkswagen the vibration you're feeling is is a very very very long stroke

Very high compression the 10 8 or 11 to 1 compression

Engine and the vibration is consistent it changes with revs

And then there's an extra layer added on it with power the E30 it's not balance shafted, but it's that's 14

The M3 is not balance shafted, which is impressive for a 2.3 liter

But it is a much much much shorter stroke. Mercedes also right also on balance shafted and Mercedes is so smooth fully counterweighted

Even way shorter stroke even than the S14 is so very short

But the the S14 has very long rods and very relatively short stroke where the which is what you want for vibration control

And high revs the Volkswagen's all wrong 92.6 more 92.8 millimeter stroke very short rods

So it's a recipe for mechanical vibration

The S14 actually vibrates a lot less and reciprocating mass

But then adds this horrible power delivery to it

And so it's under power that that thing vibrates in a way that's just not pleasant because it's

One time per power stroke where I think the Volkswagen every is

Every fucking degree of crankshaft rotation. It's vibrating in a different direction

And so one is like

You know like you get like one of the one of the Theragons or whatever and if it's just bang bang bang bang bang

It feels like you're getting decked

Yeah, but you turn up that that speed and now you're getting massage

And I think that's the difference between S14 and the VW motors all wrong

So the actual problem is the S14 doesn't vibrate enough

It does

God it's such a terrible sound though. Yeah, I don't know. I just I can't love that engine

What I do the same way, especially the two fives they're even worse

And yeah, no and the Mercedes is kind of like the happy middle, but I don't want that I want

I want the VW there's no you could you could literally be deaf in fact

I've had a deaf person in in the shirako who left this guy's total car guy

Can't hear anything can't hear really anything normally but feels it in his chest and can hear very very low frequencies

And when I started the Ferrari his like his eyes lit up because that's all incredibly basic

Never talked about this on the podcast right

Started the cabbie and he burst out laughing like he was like that

Like are you that thing is doing that

And we were in the shirako and I he'd I thought he might start masturbating

But it was just he was just you feel everything the car is doing and I think there's

That's what I like about it. Yeah, and that's what I think like about sports cars right and it's not

It's a front-wheel-drive economy car

But I think it actually has a more chemical communicative and responsive engine than most scratch cars do

That being said

A Lotus Elise with okay 20 swap might

Match might be more experience. I know I need to drive a series too and

Yeah, those Honda Motors don't sound good mechanically though. They it's intake and exhaust anyway

Um, they car they give for the record the shirako

I only give a b-plus as a consumer product because of the structure because of what else is shifter

Structure creeks and rattles and the and the cabbie I said structure

Oh driving position in the cabbie a little bit awkward. Just the shifter so far so low you got to reach down for it

other

Um, they're my they're my favorites that they're all experience and it's another one of those things price

Price per smile. Yeah off the chart

Hard to argue with that. All right. Well, thank you for joining us for what I assume was a very long car engine show

Yeah, so this is a double episode we may skip next week um because

By the time this one is edited will both be in the an old age of okay

Well, let me go. Thank you for joining close my fiber. I guess come on roast the roast our cars in the comment

I mean, you know, it could be like, you know, there's the obvious stuff like where the hell are the American cars?

Where the where the big luxury sedans where the above all you have a 220-inch class

That you didn't talk about the 221

Um, 221. Yeah, well come on. Let us have it. Come on

But do it in the style of Nikki Glasier make it fucking filthy and funny

Has to be funny. It's not roast. That's just an insult. Yes

Or a Twitter

Twitter. Okay. Bye

Oh

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We Roast Each Other's Cars — The Carmudgeon Show w/ Jason Cammisa & Derek Tam-Scott — Ep 180

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