Why the Porsche Market is Broken
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Car
Porsche Targa
The Porsche Targa is a type of car that has a special roof that can be removed. It's like a mix between a regular car and a convertible, allowing for an open-air experience while still having a solid structure.
Term
G series car
The G series is a type of Porsche 911 that was made between 1974 and 1989. These cars are popular among fans because they have a unique look and are powered by engines that don't use water for cooling, which is different from many modern cars.
Company
Bring a Trailer
Bring a Trailer is a website where people can buy and sell cars, especially classic and interesting ones. It's known for its auctions and has a community of car lovers who share their knowledge about vehicles.
Car
Porsche 911
The Porsche 911 SC is a model of a sports car made by Porsche in the early 1980s. It's known for its unique shape and powerful engine, making it popular among car enthusiasts.
Term
Kelly Blue Book
Kelly Blue Book is a resource that helps people find out how much cars are worth. It's often used when buying or selling a vehicle to ensure a fair price.
Part
3.2 motor swap
A motor swap means changing the engine of a car to a different one. In this case, it's replacing the original engine with a 3.2-liter engine, which can make the car faster and more powerful.
Car
Porsche Cayman
The Porsche Cayman (987) is a sports car that was made by Porsche. It has its engine in the middle, which helps it handle well on the road.
Term
Guards Red
Guards Red is a bright red color that Porsche cars often come in. It's a favorite among fans because it looks really sporty and stands out.
Term
Moss Green
Moss Green is a dark green color that some Porsche cars have. It's not as common as red or black, which makes it special for collectors.
Car
Porsche 718 Cayman GT4
The Porsche 718 Cayman GT4 is a sports car that offers great performance and handling. It's designed for people who love to drive and enjoy the thrill of the road or track.
Term
GT
'GT' stands for 'Gran Turismo,' which means it's a type of car made for fast driving and comfortable long trips. These cars usually have good performance and nice features.
Car
BMW M3
The BMW E46 M3 is a special version of the BMW 3 Series car made between 2001 and 2006. It's known for being very fun to drive and is often considered one of the best BMWs ever made.
Car
BMW E46
Term
M division
The M division is a special part of BMW that makes faster and sportier versions of their regular cars. These cars are built to be more exciting to drive, especially on racetracks.
Car
BMW New Bmws
The BMW New Class is a group of cars made by BMW in the 1960s and 70s that helped the company become popular for making sporty and fancy cars. Models like the 2002 were really important because they showed that BMW could make fun cars that people loved to drive. Car fans talk about it because it changed how people think about BMW.
Term
M badge
The M badge is a special logo that BMW puts on some of its faster and sportier cars. It means those cars are designed for better performance and handling.
Term
M steering
M steering is a type of steering system in BMW's sportier cars that helps the driver feel more connected to the road and makes the car easier to control.
Term
M brakes
M brakes are special brakes made for BMW's sportier cars. They help the car stop better, especially when driving fast.
Term
M cars
M cars are special high-performance versions of regular BMW cars. They are faster and have better handling.
Term
V8 engine
A V8 engine has eight cylinders arranged in a V shape. It's known for being powerful and is often used in sports cars and larger vehicles to provide strong acceleration and a nice sound.
Term
manual transmission
A manual transmission is a type of car gearbox that you have to shift yourself using a stick and a clutch pedal. It gives you more control over how the car drives, but it can be harder to learn than an automatic transmission.
Term
built-in obsolescence
Built-in obsolescence is when products are made to last only a short time so that people have to buy new ones. In cars, this might mean parts are designed to wear out quickly.
Car
Lotus Esprit
The Lotus Esprit is a famous sports car from the UK that was made for many years. It has a unique design and is known for being fast and fun to drive.
Brand
Lotus
Lotus is a British car brand that makes lightweight and fast sports cars, known for their excellent handling.
Brand
Japanese cars
Japanese cars are vehicles made in Japan, and they are often known for being reliable and good on gas.
Car
Mitsubishi 3000 Gt
The Mitsubishi 3000GT is a sporty car from the 1990s that was built to be fast and fun to drive. It has some cool features like four-wheel drive, which helps it handle well on the road. People talk about it because it's a unique car that many fans still love today.
Car
Toyota Mr2S
The Toyota MR2 is a small sports car made by Toyota. It has the engine in the middle, which helps it handle well and be fun to drive.
Car
Honda NSX
The Honda NSX is a fast sports car made by Honda. It was one of the first cars to have an aluminum body, making it lighter and quicker.
Car
Toyota Supras
The Toyota Supra is a well-known sports car made by Toyota. It is famous for being fast and can be easily modified to go even faster.
Car
Chevrolet Tahoe
The Chevrolet Tahoe is a large SUV that can carry many passengers and cargo. The 1996 version is one of the earlier models, known for being tough and practical.
Term
miles per gallon (MPG)
Miles per gallon (MPG) tells you how far a car can go on one gallon of gas. If the number is low, like 13 MPG, it means the car uses a lot of fuel and can be expensive to drive.
Term
mild lift
A mild lift means making the car a little taller, which can help it go off-road better and look more rugged without changing how it drives too much.
Term
G-Body
G-Body is a term used to describe a specific version of the Porsche 911 made from 1974 to 1989. It's known for its classic style and is popular among car collectors.
Car
Porsche 944S
The Porsche 944 is a sporty car from the 1980s that many people enjoy driving because it's fun and not too expensive compared to other Porsches. It has a good balance and is easy to handle, making it a great choice for those who want a classic car without breaking the bank. Recently, its prices have been changing a lot, which is why people are talking about it.
Car
Porsche 911 GT3
The Porsche 911 GT3 is a super sporty version of the regular 911 car, built for people who love to drive fast and enjoy racing. It has a powerful engine and is designed to handle really well on the road or track. Many car fans talk about it because it's both fun to drive and looks amazing.
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Welcome to Renthousiast Radio, the podcast where Will and Derek navigate the winding roads of
Porsche Obsession, exploring the good and the bad of Porsche ownership.
Grab your favorite beverage, pull up a chair and join us.
Renthousiast Radio, because life's too short not to talk about Porsches.
Welcome to Renthousiast Radio. I'm Will.
And I'm Derek.
And at the risk of coming across as negative today, Derek and I want to talk a little bit about
what we're experiencing in our respective car hunts.
And our opinions just in general on the Porsche Marketplace, not from an appreciation standpoint,
not from a model-by-model comparison of what's going to be more desirable versus what's desirable now,
but instead just what we think is happening.
And really, big picture why we think it has been difficult,
or it is difficult to find cool examples in today's Porsche Market.
So Derek, that's a setup, buddy. Anything to add before we get into the core content?
Yeah, let's just call it what it is.
Well, this is going to be a little bit of a bitch session today.
The way I'm picturing it is you and I just met up for a cup of coffee.
We've both been looking for cars. We're looking at the market.
We're getting a sense of how people are pricing things, what kind of cars are out there,
what kind of outlets we're looking at cars on.
And it's kind of annoying.
And it's funny because this is going to mirror probably our private conversations
we have over text or over the phone during the week.
But we got to a point where, I mean, you've come across a number of different cars
over the last few weeks when you've been searching for your Targa,
and you've had some less-than-stellar examples shown to you
or you've gone down the rabbit hole in a couple that didn't pan out.
I've had a lot of internet, I guess I'll say like interactions that
I'm just like, why would sellers be that way?
And so I sat down with a notebook and I kind of put down some notes
and I'm like, what's up with the market right now?
And why is the Porsche market making me tired when it comes to buying a new car?
Well said, yeah.
I was thinking about two like just very simple bullets on this thing.
A, it is fatiguing.
B, I am impatient as hell.
So admittedly, if I can't find what I'm looking for within two to three weeks,
I kind of like lose interest and move on to what is attainable.
So that's full disclosure, man.
There are probably many, many, many people out there who are patient
and intentional and thoughtful, and they are the guys that score the key cars,
but it takes them two years.
So that's not me.
Yeah.
And those are the kind of players that are actually finding cars nowadays
because it is more of a buyer's market than a seller's market.
But we'll get into that.
We're an enthusiast YouTube channel.
Check out Will's videos, 11 past 9 on my YouTube channel.
Check out my videos.
But what I really want to plug today is having the audience go back
and look at Will's older YouTube videos of the Renthusias Radio podcast.
Or if you're listening, we have a catalog of almost 75 episodes now.
And a lot of them are what we call Evergreen,
where we just talk about a topic.
And I get a lot of messages every week when people are like,
hey, I went back.
I started from the beginning or I cherry-picked because I'm looking for
a certain car or I'm curious about a certain topic you guys are talking about.
And I love that because it makes me feel like this podcast is more like a library
that you can go back and access for information rather than like of the week
or of the day this is the news going on.
And then five days later, it's old.
And so I encourage all of you to go back and check out those episodes.
So with that being said, let's get into today's topic
and why we're exhausted looking at cars.
And I don't know what it is, man, because I think it's a number of different factors.
But that burning desire of like, oh, I got to find this car
that I used to have when I see something.
We've all had it, right?
We're sitting on the couch, scrolling Facebook Marketplace constantly
like we always do, maybe checking out the old forgotten cobweb Craigslist
every once in a while.
And you know what?
You find something you're like, holy crap.
That's a great deal.
Or that's a sweet car.
I'm going to jump on that.
Oh, is he going to get back to me?
Oh, maybe if I offer him this, maybe, you know, maybe he'll go for it.
And that excitement is where did it go?
I don't, I haven't had that in a while.
Okay.
Let's imagine we have ancestors, eons ago, cavemen.
Okay.
Warshis seeking cavemen.
Yeah.
I mean, I think, you know, the hunter, that would have been me,
the guy that like leaves the cave and he's out looking for meat
to bring back to the cave.
And, you know, it is just so frustrating when you're hungry, hungry,
and you can't find the meat that you're seeking.
So, yeah, man, I mean, I think the impatience piece for me is,
is definitely at play.
I'm sure that there are, you know, really good methods to find private
sellers who have well cared for examples.
You know, the cars that we want in interesting colors
and with good history and the guy can tell you how he used to take his
kids for ice cream 20 years ago in the car.
Like that's what we want.
That's, that's, that's that prime meat, you know, that we're seeking.
And I just, I can't find it anymore.
And I used to find it.
And I have, I don't know, I'm pretty shameless in my efforts to find something.
I will create want to buy ads and post them into places where I know
owners hang out.
I will do want to buy videos, you know, kind of using my channel to bring
alive what I'm looking for and hopefully finding people with,
with cars that it might be like, hey, I'm not going to list this,
but if somebody came along, I might let it go because I don't want to screw
around with selling it, but I do want to get out of it.
And, you know, those methods, he used to yield.
Even a year ago, like really, really cool cars that are pre-market.
And, you know, I, to just kind of paint a picture really
quickly, I went to an air cooled show in early October and I came
out of that show deciding that, hey, I want to get into another,
you know, G series car, G body car.
And I started looking, man.
I couldn't find shit.
And so it was just my first experience of just finally just saying
screw it and threw my hands up.
And so that's was the impetus of this episode.
By the way, folks out there said that was, I couldn't find what I
wanted and Derek saying, I can't find what I want.
So we thought we would bat it around.
Derek, let's, let's just start with the elephant in the room.
Maybe it's not an elephant in the room anymore as much as it is a
factor that is dead on in the spotlight, but it's bring a trailer, man.
You know, for those folks out there that don't know what bring a
trailer is, it's a, it is a disruptive website that's been around
for years now.
And if you're, by the way, a self-proclaimed car person and
you don't know what bring a trailer is, I don't know.
I think you probably got to do your, do your research.
But anyway, digital platform, seven-day auctions, full
transparency, a clock that winds down.
Be careful there when you say full transparency.
In theory, how about this?
Folks who are of varying levels of honesty can present their cars
in such a way where it feels transparent.
So, you know, I think that, that platform is very much a
part of this conversation.
I think that as an aside, I feel like bring a trailer in many
ways has killed the every man's ability to buy cars that they
just want to enjoy because now you got deep pockets that
you're trying to compete with.
You know, some of the numbers I've seen cars sell for on
bring a trailer are just out, just out of this world.
I think that is cooling off a little bit.
But yeah, man, I just think, I think that's a main, main
factor here that has led to our inability to at least on the
private market.
For those of us who don't have the appetite to buy in an auction
environment, it's really hurt our ability to find the good
cars because everybody with a good car submits it to bring a
trailer and puts it up for auction.
What do you think?
Yeah, dude, you covered like five fantastic points there.
I'm so torn about bring a trailer.
You know, because in some ways I love bring a trailer
because cars show up on there because it has such a reach
and it has such a platform.
Cars will show up on there that you'd never find as a normal
person and like really interesting cars.
And I don't even mean Porsche.
I mean, like there's some really cool cars that go up there
that you would have to know like the car like hedgehogs that
go dig down into the Southwest and find things in garages.
But those are coming online.
And so from that respect, I think it's fantastic.
Let's just talk about the market real briefly.
Here's an interesting little factoid will that I dug
up when I was thinking about this.
In the years of 2021 and 2022, we had six years of market
growth in Porsche values in the span of 18 months.
So that's how quickly the values jumped.
Now, they've definitely, you said that they've cooled
in the last six months.
You're absolutely right about that.
It's I think we're down about 9% off the 2023 peak.
But I mean, six years of growth artificially.
And a lot of that I do think and bring a trailer certainly
made hay when it came to that because people went to bring
a trailer post COVID.
They were of course in their houses.
They had some available income that maybe they would
have gone and spent elsewhere.
They want to live life.
They want to finally realize their dream because we
could be dead tomorrow.
You know, who knows, right?
And so everyone went out and bought cars in the market
jumped.
I think where I have a problem with bring a trailer is
that bring a trailer.
We can't check or we can't mark the market by bring a
trailer auctions.
And everyone is doing that.
Everyone looks at their 1983 911 SC that has worn paint
is probably in need of a top end rebuild.
And they go, oh, well, SCs are going for $78,000 to
$85,000 and bring a trailer.
So, you know, that's what I'm going to put it up
on Facebook marketplace for.
And you look at these cars and you're like,
what the hell are you thinking?
But that's what the market is.
It used to be the old Kelly Blue Book, right?
Like a go look in Kelly Blue Book.
Well, now it's like, go look and bring a trailer.
It's like, this is not a bring a trailer car.
Go look on bring a trailer.
I've submitted the car.
It looks like it's going to go live in two weeks.
If you want to buy it now for my ridiculous,
overly inflated price.
And by the way, it's a limited time only.
Then, you know, you need to go ahead and do it.
I'm not coming down on my price because this is what
I know I can get on bring a trailer.
Look at these three auctions that have occurred
for a car just like mine.
What I love to do is say, no, I just can't pay
20% over market.
So let me know when the car goes live
because I'd like to play on that auction.
And, you know, hopefully I can get it for less.
Call their bluff.
By the way, this is just a negotiation tactic,
but it pisses me off so much that I thought I'd share it.
You know, and maybe the guy submits it
and you keep an eye on the auction
and maybe there's a smoking deal to be had
or maybe he's right.
The car's worth what he thinks and or more.
But either way, man, I mean, it is.
That's just yet another kind of irritating
aspect of all this.
Yeah, it is.
And the bring a trailer was such a huge party,
but now I feel like I have a bring a trailer
hangover because we're just dealing with
like these inflated values
and it's not all bring a trailer's fault.
And it is a good website.
I'm not trashing the website.
I'm just trashing the idea of marking these
the values of an entire, you know,
generation of cars by a certain manufacturer
to one website.
That's an auction platform.
And some people might say, well,
that's the purest example of, you know,
capitalism is you look at an auction
and people pay what a car is worth, right?
And so that's the real value.
And it's not.
It's not because there are stories, right?
There's countless stories of people getting their cars
that were these prom queen cars online.
They get them.
And how many issues do they have?
They're just tarted up and they're
they're portrayed in such a way.
And then they get them.
And that is, that is a very common complaint.
Yeah, man.
I don't have the appetite for risk to buy
and bring a trailer.
I just, I don't.
Maybe I should learn to play a little bit.
I mean, I could, I could go.
I'm a multi-brand enthusiast.
I'm not going to get into that,
but there are certainly options where,
you know, you're playing in the world of Porsche
$80,000, $90,000, $100,000,
and then you can find something that tops out
at like $15,000, $20,000.
All of a sudden that feels like,
man, I'll roll the dice.
I don't care.
A friend of mine and I call him Smalls.
And they can scratch the itch when you can't.
No.
Right.
So, so, you know, I mean, there's that.
But I will say this, as I'm often apt to do,
I am talking out of both sides of my mouth.
I sold my 69T hot rod on bring a trailer.
And dude, it went like $30,000,
maybe even $40,000 more than I expected.
It was out of control.
Killer car.
And, you know, I wasn't necessarily bitching
about bringing a trailer that day.
No.
The day that auction ended.
But that said, and I want to get into this too.
I had an ice cream metallic 76911
with a 3.2 motor swap.
It's so basically a very pretty cool car.
Pretty beautiful car.
For those of you who aren't familiar with my,
you know, nerdy internal jargon.
But anyway, that car went up
and there was nothing wrong with that car.
I mean, it was just, it was a great car.
Yep.
And you had one of these internet warriors
who he all he, so he did some digging
and he found out that, you know,
the car had been featured on my channel.
He figured out who I am.
I didn't, I don't manage my own auctions when I do this.
I've done it twice.
I do hire a company to do it.
Anyway, the guy got ahold of it and this dude went through,
he was the guy that's in the comments
on your auction, ripping it up,
pointing out things that are wrong with it
and quite frankly, you know,
blowing those out of proportion and or like making things up.
He's the guy that says,
okay, that bolt in picture 32 in the lower right-hand corner
doesn't match, you know,
or, you know, this year of the 9-11,
technically they didn't have an XYZ motor.
They had an, you know, it's that guy
and that guy is not helpful, is he?
No, no, and that guy would never be able
to affect the sale of your car
if you were selling it privately.
And I missed reserve.
I missed reserve on that auction, dude.
It was brutal.
It was brutal and I can talk about that experience
in a moment by the way.
Well, so just regarding your tea though,
like I feel like that is a special car
and that is a car that would go and bring a trailer.
Like, and you know, good for you for getting that price.
That was a very special, very interesting car.
I think what we're talking about, right,
we're talking about driver quality cars.
We're talking about you want to get a mid-80s target.
I'm still undecided,
but looking for a .1 or a .2 generation
of the Cayman for 987.
And I feel like,
I'm going to throw this point at you
and tell me what you think.
I feel like we're missing the middle of the market.
I feel like when you go online
and you're looking at,
I'm going to keep going back to marketplace
just because that's such an easy thing to scroll.
But you have two extremes.
You have like abject projects
that like a car is screaming,
I have problems, you know,
whether it's visually like you can tell
that the car is beat to crap
or that like, you know,
180,000 miles
or it's had 12 owners
and it came out of Florida.
Sorry, Florida.
And there's just,
there's a lot of question marks
or you have like top, top, top of the market
these sterling examples
where you they're charging
like 20% over where the market should be.
But where are the like the normal
everyday cars where someone's like,
hey, I've owned this for five or 10 years.
I'm moving on to my next car.
This is an honest example.
Like those used to be part and parcel.
You used to be able to find those.
But now I feel like you just have this fatigue
because you're playing whack-a-mole.
You're like, okay,
all right, this one's a problem.
I got to ignore it even though the price looks good
because I know it's going to cause me heartache
or this one's way overpriced.
It's way expensive and it's not in my budget
because it's, you know, way too nice.
But where did the middle of the market go?
And I have some ideas on that.
What do you think?
Well, I think when I'm looking around,
I want a cool color in an honest example.
And I think those are the ones that are going on
and bring a trailer and I can't,
you know, I can't find them.
Guards red, white, black everywhere.
You know, cobalt, not to be found.
I don't know, moss green, not to be found.
And those are the cars that I'm talking about.
I'm not looking for exemplary concord examples.
I'm looking for something I can drive
that just stands out a little bit
and then when I look at it,
I'm excited because it's a little different.
A little further down the path
in my quote-unquote Porsche journey
and so I'm just looking for something a little bit cooler,
a little less expected.
And yeah, man, those have disappeared on me
and it's largely dried up.
I think bring a trailer has to do with that
but I also think about what's happening economically
and a full disclosure.
I know nothing about macroeconomics,
tariffs, you know, the employment reports
and how that impacts people with money's view
on asset management.
But I think at the end of the day,
people are hanging on to cool cars as well.
I know I am, I'm pleased with what I have in the garage.
I'm not contemplating selling anything right now
and usually I'd have something on my mind to sell.
I'm a business owner and so there is some uncertainty.
So I don't know if you want to pivot away from bring a trailer
if you've got more to discuss there
but I think too, like what's going on in the world today
might be contributing to this problem we're having.
I think that is such an awesome point to make
and we can reference bring a trailer.
Again, I don't want to beat up on the website
because there are many bring a trailer like websites out there
and they're all doing their thing
and they're getting their commissions
and they're successful and they have a place, no doubt.
I just feel like they have inadvertently maybe
affected overall values of cars
and how people perceive cars coming out of COVID
and it hurts the everyday guy
who is just looking for an honest car at a decent price.
Not listen, don't get me wrong,
you always like to get a deal, right?
But at the same time, if you're really looking for a car
and you're willing to pay a market,
you just want to pay what it should be
and not what people think it should be from three years ago
because their minds are still stuck in 21-22
when they saw online that their car is worth
40% more than it really is right now.
And, you know, one more point about auctions, man,
is I call it the Where's Waldorf
where we're going to get screwed.
We have Fred Meyer.
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And Fred Meyer consigue sus productos de calidad
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So the thing about buying on Bring a Trailer 2
is what's pictured, what you can see
is probably not as important as what you can't see
because of the strategic way people can take pictures.
You know, you're missing, you know,
a weird gap is just out of the corner of the picture
so you can't see it.
And, you know, as a buyer, man,
I mean, I've talked about this.
I don't want to keep beating this horse to death,
but like those kinds of things,
they're why I won't buy on Bring a Trailer
because I just don't have that risk tolerance.
And so, you know, it's just allowed
semi-nepharias people
to get in and withhold the cool examples
and sell them to the highest bidder
and, oh, by the way, a lot of people getting into this world,
they don't know what they're looking at.
So they don't realize they're going to get zapped.
They just see the pretty pictures
and the cool driving video with the audio
that's pumped into the cabin.
And they're like, okay, this is great.
For seasoned people such as ourselves,
you know, it's just not, it's not ideal.
I don't know if I'm seasoned or well done
because, you know, I am exhausted
when I look at this,
and I know a lot of people that have gone
onto an auction website
and they get kicked in the teeth.
Once and twice.
They're paying over reserve,
but someone swoops in at the end and steals the auction
and they're bummed, so then they get another one.
By the fifth or sixth time this happens,
they're just throwing money at a car
because they have this like FOMO thing
where it's like, I need to get a car.
And, you know, that's only going to hurt them
when they turn around and try to sell it
and just propagates what we're talking about
because now they're into the car,
they're upside down in what the real market is,
but they need to get out of the car
and so they're pricing, you know,
overmarket.
But I did want to just get back to your point
about economics because I think it does
absolutely play into it.
I think where people are at
is because everything is so expensive
will, I feel like people are like,
what am I going to get if I sell
my car, right?
What am I going to get to replace it
because of everything's overpriced
and there's not a lot of cool stuff
out there I feel right now.
I mean, the podcast is about what we're feeling.
We don't have any objective data, really.
We're just bitching into the microphones.
But it's like, I feel like people are like
looking at their garage being like,
it's a good car. It's a good everyday
driver's car. Like,
do I really want to let it go?
I mean, I might make some money on it,
but it's like a housing market.
Like, what am I going to find to replace my house
if I sell it, you know,
and you're going to be paying inflated prices
in any profit you make on your current car
or in any situation.
And people are like, you know what?
I'm just going to hang on to it until things calm down
and I feel like comfortable.
You know what it reminds me of, Will?
Are you a sports guy at all?
No.
Yeah, neither am I.
My dad was a football coach and so like,
I don't know, maybe there's some deep
childhood resentment there, but I just,
I cannot stand organized sports.
I'm active. I like to move,
but like watching sports and analyzing it,
it's crazy because I guess more than
average number of people love sports.
Sorry, I digress.
So, I can't find you on the couch from 1pm
to 9pm every Sunday?
You're going to find me on a long run
and then pilling around in my garage
and then maybe pacing
restlessly around my house.
I'm the joke of all my friends too.
People make sports references all the time
that go right over my head.
My hard drive is full because if you want
to know the leadership of,
173.911, I can
tell you that, no problem.
But if you want me to tell you
how many runs bet it in, so and so did
in the senior year of college before
you joined whatever team,
good on you, man.
But the analogy I'm going to make is
maybe a little bit more of a general one
and I'm from New England.
So, we feel this a lot, but when
you watch a game, you can feel
the momentum in a game, right?
You can feel where it's this ephemeral
that my team is coming back.
I like to watch soccer with my boys
and you just feel it.
You can feel it when the team is struggling
and the other team has advantage
and they just seem to be hitting the passes
and they seem to be shooting on goal.
But then all of a sudden, you can feel
when your team comes back
and it's this feeling.
And I don't have that feeling
for the portion market right now.
I feel like it's kind of floundering
because no one really knows
what they're attracting and I don't feel
like it has a lot of momentum.
And I think a lot of that has to do with
people are looking in their garages
and they're saying, I don't know what else
I'm going to find and so I'm just going to
hang onto my car until things, I feel
the momentum, I feel comfortable.
I feel like I can sell it
and then get something else I really want
and I feel like that's where a lot
of people are and on those honest cars
you and I are looking for are,
they're just sitting in garages
chatting about earlier with
regards to
like I exit a car, I make a pop
I've got a freaking handful of cash.
Well, if I play that
tape forward the question becomes not only like
well, okay, what am I
got to buy to replace it?
Made a big mistake. I miss
what I had because now
not only does my buying power, it's not as
strong as I thought it would be, but also
I'm going to join Will and Derek.
I cannot find
what I thought would be readily
available to me. Right.
And so that's frustrating and I think about
who wins in this market. It's the guy who's ready
to cash out and the reason he's doing it
is he's going to do a very expensive home
improvement project. So he's
shifting out of the enthusiast community
and he's going to take
his profit very wisely and go do something
else with it. That's true.
So there's that and you know
I think
to your point man
and I know so I'm not that unique
I feel like
the things that I'm going through and the things that I'm
thinking are probably pretty common. I'm not
I'm not that special.
You're a beautiful snowflake Will. Like I say
shit. I mean
actually maybe a lot of people think I'm way
out there neurotic
and nuts and whatever
I embrace whatever
aspects of me that are there but
I don't know man I look in my garage and I'm
thinking man if I sold that
I couldn't replace it. If I sold this couldn't
replace it. So
I'm just going to keep and enjoy it in a sense
it's almost given me a renewed
feeling of gratitude because now I'm not
constantly compelled at least to exit
my cars but
you know again
I can't when I do decide
to add something to the fund
of cars I mean you can't
you can't find it and
it is in fact so bad right now
for an impatient guy like me
I'm willing to pay up for quality by the way
you know I just wanted to say that like some people
are so deal-stricken or deal-motivated
that not only can't they find
something but if they do find something they're so intent
on making on getting the win and grind the other guy
down I mean it's got to
be doubly frustrating but
so funny will look look look what you just
said you're we're
complaining about this problem but we both
admit that and looking in my garage
to like I don't want to sell my base
boxer because I love it and I don't know what
but like you're
you're saying like we can't find
good cars because they're not in the market
but you're also saying you look at your racing yellow
GT4 and you're like I don't I don't I can't
replace that it's too much fun I probably
won't find a better car I'm gonna hang on to it
have this sense of gratitude so
we are admitting we're part of the problem
while saying that there's a problem out there that's it
dude I mean we are we are
complaining yet perpetuating
and you know whatever I was
glad I have some cool cars in my garage to go
while I bitch and moan about this in my mind
I can I can roast some gears
and rip yeah but you get fatigued
you get tired and does it drive you to another brand
well it does and
I promised that this neon
sign sitting behind me is not a plant
it is not a a
you know a cheap play to kind of all
the sudden become a BMW enthusiast
for the listeners out there he has this
big neon
BMW sign on the back of his office hiding
I would say lurking is
a better word behind a plant
I like the I like the neon color
anyway so you know I'm a big YouTube
set guy for the
video version of this so so no man
I have after screwing
around with a with a
an SC target search I mean I had
a couple of swings and misses and
I won't tell the soccer
but man I just said to myself look
I
can't find what I want and
also you know for
80 grand or 70
or whatever the hell it would be for a choice example
I'm like
it's really worth it it goes back to the old
band I sold my my long hood
and I look at how much actually got for it
I'm not sure I would have paid that myself
but holy shit I can go buy a GT
for with this grip
and have a bunch of money left over
so I kind of after
cooling off of my search and really being forced
to
simmer down and stop being so
compulsive compulsively impatient and finding
what I want I've been able to take
a measured approach and I decided
that
that that that I'm going to purchase a
BMW
E46 M3 so for those of you out there
who are not BMW people
the E46 M3
is I think they made it from
01 to 06 it is largely
regarded as probably the
best and most real
M car that BMW
ever made
I'm not going to nerd out on BMW stuff
Derek but the the bottom line is is
M used to mean something
M was a separate division within BMW
making you know
race inspired or track focused
or just exciting
versions of their their run of the mill cars
and these days and this should
resonate with people who are just average consumers
of
semi enthusiast cars like
BMW is taking that M badge turn it
into a marketing play and they'll they'll bolt
M on to every single
model and it is just so disappointing
but anyway back to
it I start to look at what E46 M3s go
for like really nice examples. We hang on right there Will
because you're right and this drives me nuts
some of my
closest friends in town I've owned probably
more BMWs than I have Porsches
and I like the brand a lot but I look
around at new BMWs everything
is an M to something or an
M for something and you look you're like
wait is that an M?
No it's not an M but it has an M badge
because it has M brakes and an M steering
wheel but it's not an M. Cheap play
cheap play man I mean I've had
let me think an E36 M3
E46 M3 E92 M3
and F85 X5 M
and
like those are the M cars
you know they're special.
It is interesting though that like depending on the brand
like we talk about this in Porsche but
BMW is the same way they're still the last
of they're still the
not as good as
it's not an air cool car these water cool cars
you know same thing with M
you know the last M ended in
2004. Yeah
yeah I'm not again I don't want to nerd out too much
but I sort of feel like part of the E46
M3 Ethos as being the last one
is part of it's the design language of
the of that generation prior to
the E9X generation
E9X generation they shifted to having a
V8 in the car
which by the way I own one of those and that V8 is
out of control like the sounds it makes
it's amazing but the challenge
with that car is you know
in a manual version which is what I had
it doesn't mate well to how the car makes power
it's just it's not great
so then you get into basically
BMW's equivalent of the PDK which is called
DCT and in my view
the reason the previous generation of the
E9X is viewed as the last
of is because you know their SMG
which was their automatic it's kind of like
tip it was shit
but anyway the E9X
with the DCT to me it's
digital right so you're getting away from that analog
that's offered but
back to the original point
and I didn't even realize this the market
the Porsche market is in this will never really
happen but I'll overstate it the state
of the market is chasing me out of the hobby
and getting me into a different brand
because I'm frustrated and then I look at
what my money will get me in an E46
M3 coupe is a killer car
I love looking at it I love driving
them so now for
two-thirds of the money or really may call it
mmm maybe 70
75% of the money that would cost me to
get into a beat-up target
I'm in a very cool
car and that is just
my story in where I'm at
currently so you know I that's an
interesting as I'm talking about it
that's an interesting outcome of this
difficulty in finding the cars we want
and we want you all next week to tune
into their enthusiast radio BMW
podcast where every week will be
talking about what BMWs were now
buying well I'll tell you I did
publish a want to buy video on my channel
as I mentioned 18 million
times looking for this E46
M3 and I did it because I think
there is crossover
you find
Porsche guys who own
BMWs to special ones
and so I was hoping to tap into the audience
actually it's been fruitful but what's
interesting is I've got a lot of feedback
from my viewer base saying I mean we're excited
to get some variety on here I can't wait
to watch this journey so that was
a surprising outcome too and that video
is actually doing quite well and all it was
was a utility video
to help me help me
feed the need for new metal
in the garage well a lot of Porsche
owners came from being having
BMW ownership you know
and so we all have it
in our history have you ever heard this
and I swear I don't
it's one of my favorite jokes because
it's so obnoxious
and but you know unfortunately
perpetuates the perception
I think that it's the old porcupine
joke in the Porsche world
so what's the difference between what is it a Porsche owner
what is it in a porcupine
yeah the pricks on the inside
with the Porsche owner so this is
going to sound very prickish but a BMW
guy is a BMW guy until he starts
making money and then he becomes a Porsche guy
you haven't heard that one before
you have it so it is
dickish it is dickish
yeah but maybe that maybe the
BMW guy making money now can't
even afford a Porsche so he stays a BMW guy
well it's interesting and it sort of reflects
we could do another
episode around culture between
Porsche and BMW but just dabbling
back in the BMW world there's definitely a different
culture in that world
than Porsche and
I hesitate to say this but other people
have brought it up independently of me
but I think sometimes it has to do with
price of entry being so low
you kind of get some people that might be immature
or I don't know anyway I digress
I don't want to be I don't want to get into that
well the one thing I'll do is
I'll go back to what you said about how the newer
M cars just aren't the same as the older
M cars and again this is like
way off topic on a Porsche
podcast but we
meander and it's okay because we're all
car guys
so my
I feel so bad so my brother
bought a brand new 2025
BMW M3 stick
it's a sweet looking car and
he's always wanted an M3
and I
drove it and I actually barred it
for a couple of days and I filmed it
and he is not going to be
happy with the video that I'm going to make this winter
on it
and I think ultimately it's going to be
Porsche
Porsche driver
Porsche owner
drives the new M3
this episode is brought to you by progressive insurance
do you ever think about switching insurance
companies to see if you could save some cash
progressive makes it easy to see if you
could save when you bundle your home
and auto policies try it
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casualty insurance company and affiliates potential
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I'm sorry
everyone out there I don't know I don't want to
insult you if you're driving
your car it is so fast
and so capable no doubt
it was terrible to drive
the steering was
terrible yeah yeah
they feel disposable
and they are disposable
there's the whole idea
of built-in obsolescence
you know these are these
this is not my theory it's another one
these very long
periods of time between oil changes
designed by BMW to make the motor go out
by 100,000 miles so you've got to go
purchase another sounds conspiracy theorist
but anyway I have heard that
but they feel disposable
man and I'll say this too
I did a really stupid
video a few years back
and what it was it was just impromptu
in front of my old house
my brother had and I can't tell you what year it was
but he had an X5 it was an MX
some bullshit like with an M badge
designation on it that was meaningless
but I got in there
and I was like I had driven it for a couple days
for some reason I needed to borrow it
and I was just like this is fricking terrible
not only is this terrible but it's like
it is confusing to drive
you know I need five
things to happen in order for me to pilot a vehicle
effectively you know
steering wheel need brakes
I guess a gear shifter
a windshield for example I need to be able to see through it
but this car I counted
had 120
buttons and switches
and you know activating
points
120 it's like a fricking airplane
you would wave your hand in front of the screen
to make it move between
you know menus right so literally
you go like this in the air
in front of the screen
I have an X5 that did that
my bitch about the whole thing
and that video was like way too digital
and the BMW fanboys
destroyed me
in that video in fact I'd never
delete a video regardless of whether it lands
or not because and I don't care if I get hate
usually but it was so
eviscerating I finally deleted that
video and so I think
too that BMW has just gotten
way too digital out he's the same way
I guess there are people out there that love it
early adopters they think tech is cool
for me I'm an analog guy called
me old school and so that goes back to the car
I'm hunting for now to
stop the target pain
that E46 M3 none of that
shit's going on with it so
do you ever this is
kind of insane but I mean
have you for the same price point
like if you're in the 50s have you ever looked at a lotus
like an older lotus
no I'm scared
are you talking about the one that you're riding 3 inches above the ground
yeah
not not like a classic lotus from
the 80s like in a spree or anything
but like a lotus from
the 90s or 2000s
you know they're perpetually in the 40,000
to early 50,000 range
they are literally go carts
they're small and uncomfortable but like
I've never driven one but apparently the driving
is fantastic yeah dude no I said
I'm scared really because I can't I fight
I mean I've looked at them and contemplated them and I
I don't know my problem is
in my area who would work on them
and you start getting into
that a whole man I got to learn that
world and what am I looking for
and so I just kind of get scared off
I mean the idea of that car I bet you
you can just look at it and you know what it would be like to drive
but yeah
yeah it's hard it's hard because
Porsche sets such a bar for
driving purity and
engagement and there's not a lot of
brands you can turn to and be like hey
I want that same level of engagement
but it doesn't have a Porsche badge on it
early BMWs lotus
apparently but then you start to kind of go
90s Japanese cars
early 2000 Japanese cars
not it's not the same in terms of
feel
speaking of that
brand trailers destroyed those markets for the accessibility
too so like
Mitsubishi 3000 GT
or the cool like
Mark II I can't remember the
Turbo MR2s or the NSX
or the
Turbo Supras
100 grand
80 grand 100 grand
so you can't go scratch the itch with that
this is an aside and you I know that you're going to look at scans at me
and I know you've already been like what the hell are you doing
I scratched an itch recently
I picked up a 1996 Tahoe
with a 10 footer paint job
a massive immaculate history
and beautiful cloth interior
I picked it up for
$7,000
and I have not been able to stop driving that car
now I'm getting 13 miles a gallon so that sucks
I'm looking for it that way
but you know can't find a target
go buy a Tahoe
from the 90s
part-handing advice from your friends and enthusiast radio
go get yourself a
$7,000, 8,000
SUV
I'm putting a mild lift on it
and I threw a stereo system in it
anyway I guess
the point on that and we'll bring it all the way back to the Porsche world
is I guess there are ways to scratch the itch
when you
can't find the Porsche drug you're looking for
yeah
in where I also find myself
I especially feel it because
going back to that momentum conversation
that we just talked about
I feel like the market
has softened in the last six months
the market has absolutely softened
and with the economic uncertainty
I have this thing will
where I don't want
to buy at the top of the market
and there is a fear out there of buying at the top of the market
I mean you look at the prices for 993s
you can make the argument
that they are a special car and they're going to continue to be
and you know
in rarefied air
but when you're looking at
dude a 1987 9-11
G-Body Cabriolet
going for almost $70,000
$65,000 people are asking
and you're like
where the hell are we we're on Mars right now
and so
I think that's the definition
when I'm looking at a G-Cab
going for over $60,000
I say we're at the top of the market
and I don't want to jump in so
you start looking at
is a Cayman a $32,000
car for a first generation car
no it's not
and so I think people again just goes back to where they think
the prices should be or were a couple years ago
versus like
hey guys let's just slot in
but ray of hope
I will say
there are some markets
where there are some deals to be found
on the Porsche side and I'm going to mention two
number one
my perennial favorite
the Cayans
you can still get a Cayan
for stupid cheap money
and it is so much car
and there
my Cayan video on 11 after 9 will
if something happened with the algorithm
people have been searching it
it has exploded in the last month
I just picked up a 2013
S or a turbo or what have you
diesel and they are in love
and you can get these things for like 11 grand
13 yeah dude
what you done is you tapped into an underserved
subculture
I did that with bass box during my videos were
just blowing up I'm like what the hell is this
yeah but I mean people want
don't they want 992 Carrera S
content no
they want bass box during Cayan content
but in will
this it because the other car that I want to mention
that is
I've seen come down and soften with the market
outside of 80s 944s
finally coming back to earth is
um
986 and 987 boxers
986 boxers are
back under $10,000
987 boxers are back in the mid teens
instead of being in the mid 20s
and so there is hope out there
for people that want that experience
so don't leave this podcast everyone
saying I will never get a Porsche
again that's not the case
I need to challenge a little bit because
as you were talking I captured like three or four points
um number one this whole idea
if I don't want to buy at the top of the market
this might be this might sound like
I'm just trying to justify myself for overpaying
and getting what I want even though it's foolish
financially but I
I think that where I've landed is
if I'm willing to pay up
maybe it's a small
segment of the of the overall
community but there will be somebody else who will
they're impatient um
I mean dude do you know who's playing in this world
like somebody worth like a hundred million
bucks he doesn't care about paying an extra
$10,000 to $20,000 for cool cars
right for cool cars I'm not talking
about the boxers you were just discussing
but uh yeah but you know what I'll push
back on you dude because I feel like
the people with millions of dollars that are looking
for a Porsche race car or a boxer
or um
I was gonna say boxer spider but I
like an ST or GT3 right that have
hundreds of thousands of dollars they're fine
they're gonna spend that extra whatever
because they want the experience I'm talking
about like the everyday Joe
that has under $100,000 that's
looking for like their first Porsche
and maybe it's really more like 50 or
60 and they're like what can I get
those cars just aren't around
they're being priced out
yeah yeah and I'm talking
about from a buyer perspective right so these are
the guys that they can just afford to snag
those cars out from under them
and I'm a small fry
right I'm not I'm a small fry but I am willing
to overpay by five
or more thousand to get what I want
and so all I'm saying is I'm not that unique
and there are other people that want what they want
and so I'm not too scared these
days about taking that risk where I'm scared
is it's the risk of playing
the game of where's Walder on how I'm gonna get
screwed on a proud auction I don't have an appetite for that
but if I know that I'm playing it safe
I'll overpay by five to ten
and take that risk and say okay even though I'm buying
above market there's somebody else out there
that will see the same value that I see
so there's that
I want to touch on something else that maybe
some people out there are not
aware of and this is a contributing factor
to why you can't find cool cars too
there are independent Porsche
dealers people that
kind of specialize unofficially in
vintage Porsche or
BMW these guys have teams
or I should say teams two to three people
where a significant
portion of their job if not their entire
job is to scour the same platforms
we would scour looking for cool
listings and they will just swoop in
they'll buy these cars without even inspecting them
so you know Joe Schmo
works at XYZ
independent car dealership and his job
is to monitor he's got 18 alerts
set up for whenever you know
an interesting color SC comes up
and they will immediately call that seller
and say look I'll
hire you X okay today
in the car and the shipper
will show up tomorrow and your problem will go away
that dude right there
no PPI no anything just
here's the money and we're going to take it
because the idea of that
car is worth money to them because they can
afford the risk yeah dude
and they position themselves wisely
as sellers who do get
choice examples who refurbished them
to a high degree of quality
and so then they'll be
price above market but somebody will come
along and buy it because they know they sell good cars
so you know congratulations bring a trailer
kick you in the nuts and the
professional buyers have kicked you in the nuts
and so if you're trying to get something cool back to the original
point of this thing
you know there we are if you're watching the video
by the way I'm sitting here I'm looking at my phone
I'm smirking you're going to love this
I got we did a video
or a podcast episode I guess
a week ago on why the base
base trim is the one
to look at versus s
I've got a buddy who runs a factory dealership
and he what did he say to me out of the blue it's like
what time is it 7 30 in the morning he just
texted me the s is a better
9 11 not even close
so I guess he was just
listen to us talk about that
and so that if you're in this
world then you know like you're constantly getting
texts from buddies about this
car that car or whatever and so
I just was smiling to myself off topic
but funny nonetheless Porsche is our
sports so dude I don't
know if we solved anything here outside of
just like really just talking about what our
thoughts are with the market I mean I know
that people are going to have a lot
of ideas to share in the comments
and I welcome it because again
we do read all of them and I want to say thank
you to everyone who's reached out there's
a lot of people that email me like out of the blue
they grab my email like off my
videos and stuff and send me emails just with
their ideas and their thoughts and
that means a lot I love reading them and
I did have two more people this week
that I will that have
have thrown their
support for listening to our
podcast on the lawn mower so we
continue to be the best leading podcast
for people that mow lawns you know what
I don't I don't
in this episode I don't care about follow
up emails what I care about is in the comments
if you have cracked the code
to this problem help a brother out
tell me what your
kind of secret sauce is for finding
cool cars because I am I'm at it
out of ideas
and help the Joe Schmo that is watching
this that is like yes
I can't find a car I've been looking forever
and I want a certain car and I just can't find it
yes but help me first
help with
when that case we're going to gatekeep help will
and help Derek first and then we can
help everyone else yes
Derek it's been fun man I
love this work we do
um
I hope that people out there
enjoying it they seem to be
so let's let's let's do another
one next week what do you think man I get a pep in my
step my friend I'm going to go attack the day
happy Thanksgiving to everyone out there
and will we get to start talking about what we're
going to do for our Christmas episode
or no no no our holiday season
episode come on man woke up woke up
that's okay yeah I'm all about it
that's right the holidays holiday
greeting episode my friend
always have a great week thanks everyone
all right bud
and that's a wrap
for this episode of Renthousias Radio
we hope you enjoyed diving
deep into the world of Porsches with us today
and if you enjoyed today's show
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In 2022, I started talking to the men and women inside America's toughest prisons.
I got a life and 104.
Hearing stories of guilt, innocence and everything in between.
He said, you're the youngest kid in my prison.
There being one of my prisoners, I want you to fight.
From death row cells to wrongful convictions, these are the voices you've never heard.
What was your first thing that you were planning on doing?
Escaping, that was the first thing.
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About this episode
Frustration runs high as Will and Derek discuss the current state of the Porsche market, sharing their personal experiences while searching for cars. They explore how platforms like Bring a Trailer have inflated prices and made it difficult for enthusiasts to find reasonably priced, quality examples. The conversation touches on market trends, the impact of economic uncertainty, and the challenges of competing with professional buyers. They also reflect on their own car ownership and the allure of alternative brands like BMW, while lamenting the loss of accessible, everyday Porsches.
Original notes
The Porsche market feels broken right now. Prices are out of sync, good cars are scarce, sellers are glued to Bring a Trailer numbers, and honest driver-grade examples have all but vanished. In this episode, Derek and Will talk through why the hunt feels exhausting, what’s changed, and how real buyers are struggling in today’s Porsche world.
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Check out Will’s videos at Rennthusiast.
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