Why the Porsche Market is Broken

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Welcome to Renthousiast Radio, the podcast where Will and Derek navigate the winding roads of

Porsche Obsession, exploring the good and the bad of Porsche ownership.

Grab your favorite beverage, pull up a chair and join us.

Renthousiast Radio, because life's too short not to talk about Porsches.

Welcome to Renthousiast Radio. I'm Will.

And I'm Derek.

And at the risk of coming across as negative today, Derek and I want to talk a little bit about

what we're experiencing in our respective car hunts.

And our opinions just in general on the Porsche Marketplace, not from an appreciation standpoint,

not from a model-by-model comparison of what's going to be more desirable versus what's desirable now,

but instead just what we think is happening.

And really, big picture why we think it has been difficult,

or it is difficult to find cool examples in today's Porsche Market.

So Derek, that's a setup, buddy. Anything to add before we get into the core content?

Yeah, let's just call it what it is.

Well, this is going to be a little bit of a bitch session today.

The way I'm picturing it is you and I just met up for a cup of coffee.

We've both been looking for cars. We're looking at the market.

We're getting a sense of how people are pricing things, what kind of cars are out there,

what kind of outlets we're looking at cars on.

And it's kind of annoying.

And it's funny because this is going to mirror probably our private conversations

we have over text or over the phone during the week.

But we got to a point where, I mean, you've come across a number of different cars

over the last few weeks when you've been searching for your Targa,

and you've had some less-than-stellar examples shown to you

or you've gone down the rabbit hole in a couple that didn't pan out.

I've had a lot of internet, I guess I'll say like interactions that

I'm just like, why would sellers be that way?

And so I sat down with a notebook and I kind of put down some notes

and I'm like, what's up with the market right now?

And why is the Porsche market making me tired when it comes to buying a new car?

Well said, yeah.

I was thinking about two like just very simple bullets on this thing.

A, it is fatiguing.

B, I am impatient as hell.

So admittedly, if I can't find what I'm looking for within two to three weeks,

I kind of like lose interest and move on to what is attainable.

So that's full disclosure, man.

There are probably many, many, many people out there who are patient

and intentional and thoughtful, and they are the guys that score the key cars,

but it takes them two years.

So that's not me.

Yeah.

And those are the kind of players that are actually finding cars nowadays

because it is more of a buyer's market than a seller's market.

But we'll get into that.

We're an enthusiast YouTube channel.

Check out Will's videos, 11 past 9 on my YouTube channel.

Check out my videos.

But what I really want to plug today is having the audience go back

and look at Will's older YouTube videos of the Renthusias Radio podcast.

Or if you're listening, we have a catalog of almost 75 episodes now.

And a lot of them are what we call Evergreen,

where we just talk about a topic.

And I get a lot of messages every week when people are like,

hey, I went back.

I started from the beginning or I cherry-picked because I'm looking for

a certain car or I'm curious about a certain topic you guys are talking about.

And I love that because it makes me feel like this podcast is more like a library

that you can go back and access for information rather than like of the week

or of the day this is the news going on.

And then five days later, it's old.

And so I encourage all of you to go back and check out those episodes.

So with that being said, let's get into today's topic

and why we're exhausted looking at cars.

And I don't know what it is, man, because I think it's a number of different factors.

But that burning desire of like, oh, I got to find this car

that I used to have when I see something.

We've all had it, right?

We're sitting on the couch, scrolling Facebook Marketplace constantly

like we always do, maybe checking out the old forgotten cobweb Craigslist

every once in a while.

And you know what?

You find something you're like, holy crap.

That's a great deal.

Or that's a sweet car.

I'm going to jump on that.

Oh, is he going to get back to me?

Oh, maybe if I offer him this, maybe, you know, maybe he'll go for it.

And that excitement is where did it go?

I don't, I haven't had that in a while.

Okay.

Let's imagine we have ancestors, eons ago, cavemen.

Okay.

Warshis seeking cavemen.

Yeah.

I mean, I think, you know, the hunter, that would have been me,

the guy that like leaves the cave and he's out looking for meat

to bring back to the cave.

And, you know, it is just so frustrating when you're hungry, hungry,

and you can't find the meat that you're seeking.

So, yeah, man, I mean, I think the impatience piece for me is,

is definitely at play.

I'm sure that there are, you know, really good methods to find private

sellers who have well cared for examples.

You know, the cars that we want in interesting colors

and with good history and the guy can tell you how he used to take his

kids for ice cream 20 years ago in the car.

Like that's what we want.

That's, that's, that's that prime meat, you know, that we're seeking.

And I just, I can't find it anymore.

And I used to find it.

And I have, I don't know, I'm pretty shameless in my efforts to find something.

I will create want to buy ads and post them into places where I know

owners hang out.

I will do want to buy videos, you know, kind of using my channel to bring

alive what I'm looking for and hopefully finding people with,

with cars that it might be like, hey, I'm not going to list this,

but if somebody came along, I might let it go because I don't want to screw

around with selling it, but I do want to get out of it.

And, you know, those methods, he used to yield.

Even a year ago, like really, really cool cars that are pre-market.

And, you know, I, to just kind of paint a picture really

quickly, I went to an air cooled show in early October and I came

out of that show deciding that, hey, I want to get into another,

you know, G series car, G body car.

And I started looking, man.

I couldn't find shit.

And so it was just my first experience of just finally just saying

screw it and threw my hands up.

And so that's was the impetus of this episode.

By the way, folks out there said that was, I couldn't find what I

wanted and Derek saying, I can't find what I want.

So we thought we would bat it around.

Derek, let's, let's just start with the elephant in the room.

Maybe it's not an elephant in the room anymore as much as it is a

factor that is dead on in the spotlight, but it's bring a trailer, man.

You know, for those folks out there that don't know what bring a

trailer is, it's a, it is a disruptive website that's been around

for years now.

And if you're, by the way, a self-proclaimed car person and

you don't know what bring a trailer is, I don't know.

I think you probably got to do your, do your research.

But anyway, digital platform, seven-day auctions, full

transparency, a clock that winds down.

Be careful there when you say full transparency.

In theory, how about this?

Folks who are of varying levels of honesty can present their cars

in such a way where it feels transparent.

So, you know, I think that, that platform is very much a

part of this conversation.

I think that as an aside, I feel like bring a trailer in many

ways has killed the every man's ability to buy cars that they

just want to enjoy because now you got deep pockets that

you're trying to compete with.

You know, some of the numbers I've seen cars sell for on

bring a trailer are just out, just out of this world.

I think that is cooling off a little bit.

But yeah, man, I just think, I think that's a main, main

factor here that has led to our inability to at least on the

private market.

For those of us who don't have the appetite to buy in an auction

environment, it's really hurt our ability to find the good

cars because everybody with a good car submits it to bring a

trailer and puts it up for auction.

What do you think?

Yeah, dude, you covered like five fantastic points there.

I'm so torn about bring a trailer.

You know, because in some ways I love bring a trailer

because cars show up on there because it has such a reach

and it has such a platform.

Cars will show up on there that you'd never find as a normal

person and like really interesting cars.

And I don't even mean Porsche.

I mean, like there's some really cool cars that go up there

that you would have to know like the car like hedgehogs that

go dig down into the Southwest and find things in garages.

But those are coming online.

And so from that respect, I think it's fantastic.

Let's just talk about the market real briefly.

Here's an interesting little factoid will that I dug

up when I was thinking about this.

In the years of 2021 and 2022, we had six years of market

growth in Porsche values in the span of 18 months.

So that's how quickly the values jumped.

Now, they've definitely, you said that they've cooled

in the last six months.

You're absolutely right about that.

It's I think we're down about 9% off the 2023 peak.

But I mean, six years of growth artificially.

And a lot of that I do think and bring a trailer certainly

made hay when it came to that because people went to bring

a trailer post COVID.

They were of course in their houses.

They had some available income that maybe they would

have gone and spent elsewhere.

They want to live life.

They want to finally realize their dream because we

could be dead tomorrow.

You know, who knows, right?

And so everyone went out and bought cars in the market

jumped.

I think where I have a problem with bring a trailer is

that bring a trailer.

We can't check or we can't mark the market by bring a

trailer auctions.

And everyone is doing that.

Everyone looks at their 1983 911 SC that has worn paint

is probably in need of a top end rebuild.

And they go, oh, well, SCs are going for $78,000 to

$85,000 and bring a trailer.

So, you know, that's what I'm going to put it up

on Facebook marketplace for.

And you look at these cars and you're like,

what the hell are you thinking?

But that's what the market is.

It used to be the old Kelly Blue Book, right?

Like a go look in Kelly Blue Book.

Well, now it's like, go look and bring a trailer.

It's like, this is not a bring a trailer car.

Go look on bring a trailer.

I've submitted the car.

It looks like it's going to go live in two weeks.

If you want to buy it now for my ridiculous,

overly inflated price.

And by the way, it's a limited time only.

Then, you know, you need to go ahead and do it.

I'm not coming down on my price because this is what

I know I can get on bring a trailer.

Look at these three auctions that have occurred

for a car just like mine.

What I love to do is say, no, I just can't pay

20% over market.

So let me know when the car goes live

because I'd like to play on that auction.

And, you know, hopefully I can get it for less.

Call their bluff.

By the way, this is just a negotiation tactic,

but it pisses me off so much that I thought I'd share it.

You know, and maybe the guy submits it

and you keep an eye on the auction

and maybe there's a smoking deal to be had

or maybe he's right.

The car's worth what he thinks and or more.

But either way, man, I mean, it is.

That's just yet another kind of irritating

aspect of all this.

Yeah, it is.

And the bring a trailer was such a huge party,

but now I feel like I have a bring a trailer

hangover because we're just dealing with

like these inflated values

and it's not all bring a trailer's fault.

And it is a good website.

I'm not trashing the website.

I'm just trashing the idea of marking these

the values of an entire, you know,

generation of cars by a certain manufacturer

to one website.

That's an auction platform.

And some people might say, well,

that's the purest example of, you know,

capitalism is you look at an auction

and people pay what a car is worth, right?

And so that's the real value.

And it's not.

It's not because there are stories, right?

There's countless stories of people getting their cars

that were these prom queen cars online.

They get them.

And how many issues do they have?

They're just tarted up and they're

they're portrayed in such a way.

And then they get them.

And that is, that is a very common complaint.

Yeah, man.

I don't have the appetite for risk to buy

and bring a trailer.

I just, I don't.

Maybe I should learn to play a little bit.

I mean, I could, I could go.

I'm a multi-brand enthusiast.

I'm not going to get into that,

but there are certainly options where,

you know, you're playing in the world of Porsche

$80,000, $90,000, $100,000,

and then you can find something that tops out

at like $15,000, $20,000.

All of a sudden that feels like,

man, I'll roll the dice.

I don't care.

A friend of mine and I call him Smalls.

And they can scratch the itch when you can't.

No.

Right.

So, so, you know, I mean, there's that.

But I will say this, as I'm often apt to do,

I am talking out of both sides of my mouth.

I sold my 69T hot rod on bring a trailer.

And dude, it went like $30,000,

maybe even $40,000 more than I expected.

It was out of control.

Killer car.

And, you know, I wasn't necessarily bitching

about bringing a trailer that day.

No.

The day that auction ended.

But that said, and I want to get into this too.

I had an ice cream metallic 76911

with a 3.2 motor swap.

It's so basically a very pretty cool car.

Pretty beautiful car.

For those of you who aren't familiar with my,

you know, nerdy internal jargon.

But anyway, that car went up

and there was nothing wrong with that car.

I mean, it was just, it was a great car.

Yep.

And you had one of these internet warriors

who he all he, so he did some digging

and he found out that, you know,

the car had been featured on my channel.

He figured out who I am.

I didn't, I don't manage my own auctions when I do this.

I've done it twice.

I do hire a company to do it.

Anyway, the guy got ahold of it and this dude went through,

he was the guy that's in the comments

on your auction, ripping it up,

pointing out things that are wrong with it

and quite frankly, you know,

blowing those out of proportion and or like making things up.

He's the guy that says,

okay, that bolt in picture 32 in the lower right-hand corner

doesn't match, you know,

or, you know, this year of the 9-11,

technically they didn't have an XYZ motor.

They had an, you know, it's that guy

and that guy is not helpful, is he?

No, no, and that guy would never be able

to affect the sale of your car

if you were selling it privately.

And I missed reserve.

I missed reserve on that auction, dude.

It was brutal.

It was brutal and I can talk about that experience

in a moment by the way.

Well, so just regarding your tea though,

like I feel like that is a special car

and that is a car that would go and bring a trailer.

Like, and you know, good for you for getting that price.

That was a very special, very interesting car.

I think what we're talking about, right,

we're talking about driver quality cars.

We're talking about you want to get a mid-80s target.

I'm still undecided,

but looking for a .1 or a .2 generation

of the Cayman for 987.

And I feel like,

I'm going to throw this point at you

and tell me what you think.

I feel like we're missing the middle of the market.

I feel like when you go online

and you're looking at,

I'm going to keep going back to marketplace

just because that's such an easy thing to scroll.

But you have two extremes.

You have like abject projects

that like a car is screaming,

I have problems, you know,

whether it's visually like you can tell

that the car is beat to crap

or that like, you know,

180,000 miles

or it's had 12 owners

and it came out of Florida.

Sorry, Florida.

And there's just,

there's a lot of question marks

or you have like top, top, top of the market

these sterling examples

where you they're charging

like 20% over where the market should be.

But where are the like the normal

everyday cars where someone's like,

hey, I've owned this for five or 10 years.

I'm moving on to my next car.

This is an honest example.

Like those used to be part and parcel.

You used to be able to find those.

But now I feel like you just have this fatigue

because you're playing whack-a-mole.

You're like, okay,

all right, this one's a problem.

I got to ignore it even though the price looks good

because I know it's going to cause me heartache

or this one's way overpriced.

It's way expensive and it's not in my budget

because it's, you know, way too nice.

But where did the middle of the market go?

And I have some ideas on that.

What do you think?

Well, I think when I'm looking around,

I want a cool color in an honest example.

And I think those are the ones that are going on

and bring a trailer and I can't,

you know, I can't find them.

Guards red, white, black everywhere.

You know, cobalt, not to be found.

I don't know, moss green, not to be found.

And those are the cars that I'm talking about.

I'm not looking for exemplary concord examples.

I'm looking for something I can drive

that just stands out a little bit

and then when I look at it,

I'm excited because it's a little different.

A little further down the path

in my quote-unquote Porsche journey

and so I'm just looking for something a little bit cooler,

a little less expected.

And yeah, man, those have disappeared on me

and it's largely dried up.

I think bring a trailer has to do with that

but I also think about what's happening economically

and a full disclosure.

I know nothing about macroeconomics,

tariffs, you know, the employment reports

and how that impacts people with money's view

on asset management.

But I think at the end of the day,

people are hanging on to cool cars as well.

I know I am, I'm pleased with what I have in the garage.

I'm not contemplating selling anything right now

and usually I'd have something on my mind to sell.

I'm a business owner and so there is some uncertainty.

So I don't know if you want to pivot away from bring a trailer

if you've got more to discuss there

but I think too, like what's going on in the world today

might be contributing to this problem we're having.

I think that is such an awesome point to make

and we can reference bring a trailer.

Again, I don't want to beat up on the website

because there are many bring a trailer like websites out there

and they're all doing their thing

and they're getting their commissions

and they're successful and they have a place, no doubt.

I just feel like they have inadvertently maybe

affected overall values of cars

and how people perceive cars coming out of COVID

and it hurts the everyday guy

who is just looking for an honest car at a decent price.

Not listen, don't get me wrong,

you always like to get a deal, right?

But at the same time, if you're really looking for a car

and you're willing to pay a market,

you just want to pay what it should be

and not what people think it should be from three years ago

because their minds are still stuck in 21-22

when they saw online that their car is worth

40% more than it really is right now.

And, you know, one more point about auctions, man,

is I call it the Where's Waldorf

where we're going to get screwed.

We have Fred Meyer.

Tiene nuestros productos de siempre y a muy buen precio.

Incluso el queso cotija.

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So the thing about buying on Bring a Trailer 2

is what's pictured, what you can see

is probably not as important as what you can't see

because of the strategic way people can take pictures.

You know, you're missing, you know,

a weird gap is just out of the corner of the picture

so you can't see it.

And, you know, as a buyer, man,

I mean, I've talked about this.

I don't want to keep beating this horse to death,

but like those kinds of things,

they're why I won't buy on Bring a Trailer

because I just don't have that risk tolerance.

And so, you know, it's just allowed

semi-nepharias people

to get in and withhold the cool examples

and sell them to the highest bidder

and, oh, by the way, a lot of people getting into this world,

they don't know what they're looking at.

So they don't realize they're going to get zapped.

They just see the pretty pictures

and the cool driving video with the audio

that's pumped into the cabin.

And they're like, okay, this is great.

For seasoned people such as ourselves,

you know, it's just not, it's not ideal.

I don't know if I'm seasoned or well done

because, you know, I am exhausted

when I look at this,

and I know a lot of people that have gone

onto an auction website

and they get kicked in the teeth.

Once and twice.

They're paying over reserve,

but someone swoops in at the end and steals the auction

and they're bummed, so then they get another one.

By the fifth or sixth time this happens,

they're just throwing money at a car

because they have this like FOMO thing

where it's like, I need to get a car.

And, you know, that's only going to hurt them

when they turn around and try to sell it

and just propagates what we're talking about

because now they're into the car,

they're upside down in what the real market is,

but they need to get out of the car

and so they're pricing, you know,

overmarket.

But I did want to just get back to your point

about economics because I think it does

absolutely play into it.

I think where people are at

is because everything is so expensive

will, I feel like people are like,

what am I going to get if I sell

my car, right?

What am I going to get to replace it

because of everything's overpriced

and there's not a lot of cool stuff

out there I feel right now.

I mean, the podcast is about what we're feeling.

We don't have any objective data, really.

We're just bitching into the microphones.

But it's like, I feel like people are like

looking at their garage being like,

it's a good car. It's a good everyday

driver's car. Like,

do I really want to let it go?

I mean, I might make some money on it,

but it's like a housing market.

Like, what am I going to find to replace my house

if I sell it, you know,

and you're going to be paying inflated prices

in any profit you make on your current car

or in any situation.

And people are like, you know what?

I'm just going to hang on to it until things calm down

and I feel like comfortable.

You know what it reminds me of, Will?

Are you a sports guy at all?

No.

Yeah, neither am I.

My dad was a football coach and so like,

I don't know, maybe there's some deep

childhood resentment there, but I just,

I cannot stand organized sports.

I'm active. I like to move,

but like watching sports and analyzing it,

it's crazy because I guess more than

average number of people love sports.

Sorry, I digress.

So, I can't find you on the couch from 1pm

to 9pm every Sunday?

You're going to find me on a long run

and then pilling around in my garage

and then maybe pacing

restlessly around my house.

I'm the joke of all my friends too.

People make sports references all the time

that go right over my head.

My hard drive is full because if you want

to know the leadership of,

173.911, I can

tell you that, no problem.

But if you want me to tell you

how many runs bet it in, so and so did

in the senior year of college before

you joined whatever team,

good on you, man.

But the analogy I'm going to make is

maybe a little bit more of a general one

and I'm from New England.

So, we feel this a lot, but when

you watch a game, you can feel

the momentum in a game, right?

You can feel where it's this ephemeral

that my team is coming back.

I like to watch soccer with my boys

and you just feel it.

You can feel it when the team is struggling

and the other team has advantage

and they just seem to be hitting the passes

and they seem to be shooting on goal.

But then all of a sudden, you can feel

when your team comes back

and it's this feeling.

And I don't have that feeling

for the portion market right now.

I feel like it's kind of floundering

because no one really knows

what they're attracting and I don't feel

like it has a lot of momentum.

And I think a lot of that has to do with

people are looking in their garages

and they're saying, I don't know what else

I'm going to find and so I'm just going to

hang onto my car until things, I feel

the momentum, I feel comfortable.

I feel like I can sell it

and then get something else I really want

and I feel like that's where a lot

of people are and on those honest cars

you and I are looking for are,

they're just sitting in garages

chatting about earlier with

regards to

like I exit a car, I make a pop

I've got a freaking handful of cash.

Well, if I play that

tape forward the question becomes not only like

well, okay, what am I

got to buy to replace it?

Made a big mistake. I miss

what I had because now

not only does my buying power, it's not as

strong as I thought it would be, but also

I'm going to join Will and Derek.

I cannot find

what I thought would be readily

available to me. Right.

And so that's frustrating and I think about

who wins in this market. It's the guy who's ready

to cash out and the reason he's doing it

is he's going to do a very expensive home

improvement project. So he's

shifting out of the enthusiast community

and he's going to take

his profit very wisely and go do something

else with it. That's true.

So there's that and you know

I think

to your point man

and I know so I'm not that unique

I feel like

the things that I'm going through and the things that I'm

thinking are probably pretty common. I'm not

I'm not that special.

You're a beautiful snowflake Will. Like I say

shit. I mean

actually maybe a lot of people think I'm way

out there neurotic

and nuts and whatever

I embrace whatever

aspects of me that are there but

I don't know man I look in my garage and I'm

thinking man if I sold that

I couldn't replace it. If I sold this couldn't

replace it. So

I'm just going to keep and enjoy it in a sense

it's almost given me a renewed

feeling of gratitude because now I'm not

constantly compelled at least to exit

my cars but

you know again

I can't when I do decide

to add something to the fund

of cars I mean you can't

you can't find it and

it is in fact so bad right now

for an impatient guy like me

I'm willing to pay up for quality by the way

you know I just wanted to say that like some people

are so deal-stricken or deal-motivated

that not only can't they find

something but if they do find something they're so intent

on making on getting the win and grind the other guy

down I mean it's got to

be doubly frustrating but

so funny will look look look what you just

said you're we're

complaining about this problem but we both

admit that and looking in my garage

to like I don't want to sell my base

boxer because I love it and I don't know what

but like you're

you're saying like we can't find

good cars because they're not in the market

but you're also saying you look at your racing yellow

GT4 and you're like I don't I don't I can't

replace that it's too much fun I probably

won't find a better car I'm gonna hang on to it

have this sense of gratitude so

we are admitting we're part of the problem

while saying that there's a problem out there that's it

dude I mean we are we are

complaining yet perpetuating

and you know whatever I was

glad I have some cool cars in my garage to go

while I bitch and moan about this in my mind

I can I can roast some gears

and rip yeah but you get fatigued

you get tired and does it drive you to another brand

well it does and

I promised that this neon

sign sitting behind me is not a plant

it is not a a

you know a cheap play to kind of all

the sudden become a BMW enthusiast

for the listeners out there he has this

big neon

BMW sign on the back of his office hiding

I would say lurking is

a better word behind a plant

I like the I like the neon color

anyway so you know I'm a big YouTube

set guy for the

video version of this so so no man

I have after screwing

around with a with a

an SC target search I mean I had

a couple of swings and misses and

I won't tell the soccer

but man I just said to myself look

I

can't find what I want and

also you know for

80 grand or 70

or whatever the hell it would be for a choice example

I'm like

it's really worth it it goes back to the old

band I sold my my long hood

and I look at how much actually got for it

I'm not sure I would have paid that myself

but holy shit I can go buy a GT

for with this grip

and have a bunch of money left over

so I kind of after

cooling off of my search and really being forced

to

simmer down and stop being so

compulsive compulsively impatient and finding

what I want I've been able to take

a measured approach and I decided

that

that that that I'm going to purchase a

BMW

E46 M3 so for those of you out there

who are not BMW people

the E46 M3

is I think they made it from

01 to 06 it is largely

regarded as probably the

best and most real

M car that BMW

ever made

I'm not going to nerd out on BMW stuff

Derek but the the bottom line is is

M used to mean something

M was a separate division within BMW

making you know

race inspired or track focused

or just exciting

versions of their their run of the mill cars

and these days and this should

resonate with people who are just average consumers

of

semi enthusiast cars like

BMW is taking that M badge turn it

into a marketing play and they'll they'll bolt

M on to every single

model and it is just so disappointing

but anyway back to

it I start to look at what E46 M3s go

for like really nice examples. We hang on right there Will

because you're right and this drives me nuts

some of my

closest friends in town I've owned probably

more BMWs than I have Porsches

and I like the brand a lot but I look

around at new BMWs everything

is an M to something or an

M for something and you look you're like

wait is that an M?

No it's not an M but it has an M badge

because it has M brakes and an M steering

wheel but it's not an M. Cheap play

cheap play man I mean I've had

let me think an E36 M3

E46 M3 E92 M3

and F85 X5 M

and

like those are the M cars

you know they're special.

It is interesting though that like depending on the brand

like we talk about this in Porsche but

BMW is the same way they're still the last

of they're still the

not as good as

it's not an air cool car these water cool cars

you know same thing with M

you know the last M ended in

2004. Yeah

yeah I'm not again I don't want to nerd out too much

but I sort of feel like part of the E46

M3 Ethos as being the last one

is part of it's the design language of

the of that generation prior to

the E9X generation

E9X generation they shifted to having a

V8 in the car

which by the way I own one of those and that V8 is

out of control like the sounds it makes

it's amazing but the challenge

with that car is you know

in a manual version which is what I had

it doesn't mate well to how the car makes power

it's just it's not great

so then you get into basically

BMW's equivalent of the PDK which is called

DCT and in my view

the reason the previous generation of the

E9X is viewed as the last

of is because you know their SMG

which was their automatic it's kind of like

tip it was shit

but anyway the E9X

with the DCT to me it's

digital right so you're getting away from that analog

that's offered but

back to the original point

and I didn't even realize this the market

the Porsche market is in this will never really

happen but I'll overstate it the state

of the market is chasing me out of the hobby

and getting me into a different brand

because I'm frustrated and then I look at

what my money will get me in an E46

M3 coupe is a killer car

I love looking at it I love driving

them so now for

two-thirds of the money or really may call it

mmm maybe 70

75% of the money that would cost me to

get into a beat-up target

I'm in a very cool

car and that is just

my story in where I'm at

currently so you know I that's an

interesting as I'm talking about it

that's an interesting outcome of this

difficulty in finding the cars we want

and we want you all next week to tune

into their enthusiast radio BMW

podcast where every week will be

talking about what BMWs were now

buying well I'll tell you I did

publish a want to buy video on my channel

as I mentioned 18 million

times looking for this E46

M3 and I did it because I think

there is crossover

you find

Porsche guys who own

BMWs to special ones

and so I was hoping to tap into the audience

actually it's been fruitful but what's

interesting is I've got a lot of feedback

from my viewer base saying I mean we're excited

to get some variety on here I can't wait

to watch this journey so that was

a surprising outcome too and that video

is actually doing quite well and all it was

was a utility video

to help me help me

feed the need for new metal

in the garage well a lot of Porsche

owners came from being having

BMW ownership you know

and so we all have it

in our history have you ever heard this

and I swear I don't

it's one of my favorite jokes because

it's so obnoxious

and but you know unfortunately

perpetuates the perception

I think that it's the old porcupine

joke in the Porsche world

so what's the difference between what is it a Porsche owner

what is it in a porcupine

yeah the pricks on the inside

with the Porsche owner so this is

going to sound very prickish but a BMW

guy is a BMW guy until he starts

making money and then he becomes a Porsche guy

you haven't heard that one before

you have it so it is

dickish it is dickish

yeah but maybe that maybe the

BMW guy making money now can't

even afford a Porsche so he stays a BMW guy

well it's interesting and it sort of reflects

we could do another

episode around culture between

Porsche and BMW but just dabbling

back in the BMW world there's definitely a different

culture in that world

than Porsche and

I hesitate to say this but other people

have brought it up independently of me

but I think sometimes it has to do with

price of entry being so low

you kind of get some people that might be immature

or I don't know anyway I digress

I don't want to be I don't want to get into that

well the one thing I'll do is

I'll go back to what you said about how the newer

M cars just aren't the same as the older

M cars and again this is like

way off topic on a Porsche

podcast but we

meander and it's okay because we're all

car guys

so my

I feel so bad so my brother

bought a brand new 2025

BMW M3 stick

it's a sweet looking car and

he's always wanted an M3

and I

drove it and I actually barred it

for a couple of days and I filmed it

and he is not going to be

happy with the video that I'm going to make this winter

on it

and I think ultimately it's going to be

Porsche

Porsche driver

Porsche owner

drives the new M3

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I'm sorry

everyone out there I don't know I don't want to

insult you if you're driving

your car it is so fast

and so capable no doubt

it was terrible to drive

the steering was

terrible yeah yeah

they feel disposable

and they are disposable

there's the whole idea

of built-in obsolescence

you know these are these

this is not my theory it's another one

these very long

periods of time between oil changes

designed by BMW to make the motor go out

by 100,000 miles so you've got to go

purchase another sounds conspiracy theorist

but anyway I have heard that

but they feel disposable

man and I'll say this too

I did a really stupid

video a few years back

and what it was it was just impromptu

in front of my old house

my brother had and I can't tell you what year it was

but he had an X5 it was an MX

some bullshit like with an M badge

designation on it that was meaningless

but I got in there

and I was like I had driven it for a couple days

for some reason I needed to borrow it

and I was just like this is fricking terrible

not only is this terrible but it's like

it is confusing to drive

you know I need five

things to happen in order for me to pilot a vehicle

effectively you know

steering wheel need brakes

I guess a gear shifter

a windshield for example I need to be able to see through it

but this car I counted

had 120

buttons and switches

and you know activating

points

120 it's like a fricking airplane

you would wave your hand in front of the screen

to make it move between

you know menus right so literally

you go like this in the air

in front of the screen

I have an X5 that did that

my bitch about the whole thing

and that video was like way too digital

and the BMW fanboys

destroyed me

in that video in fact I'd never

delete a video regardless of whether it lands

or not because and I don't care if I get hate

usually but it was so

eviscerating I finally deleted that

video and so I think

too that BMW has just gotten

way too digital out he's the same way

I guess there are people out there that love it

early adopters they think tech is cool

for me I'm an analog guy called

me old school and so that goes back to the car

I'm hunting for now to

stop the target pain

that E46 M3 none of that

shit's going on with it so

do you ever this is

kind of insane but I mean

have you for the same price point

like if you're in the 50s have you ever looked at a lotus

like an older lotus

no I'm scared

are you talking about the one that you're riding 3 inches above the ground

yeah

not not like a classic lotus from

the 80s like in a spree or anything

but like a lotus from

the 90s or 2000s

you know they're perpetually in the 40,000

to early 50,000 range

they are literally go carts

they're small and uncomfortable but like

I've never driven one but apparently the driving

is fantastic yeah dude no I said

I'm scared really because I can't I fight

I mean I've looked at them and contemplated them and I

I don't know my problem is

in my area who would work on them

and you start getting into

that a whole man I got to learn that

world and what am I looking for

and so I just kind of get scared off

I mean the idea of that car I bet you

you can just look at it and you know what it would be like to drive

but yeah

yeah it's hard it's hard because

Porsche sets such a bar for

driving purity and

engagement and there's not a lot of

brands you can turn to and be like hey

I want that same level of engagement

but it doesn't have a Porsche badge on it

early BMWs lotus

apparently but then you start to kind of go

90s Japanese cars

early 2000 Japanese cars

not it's not the same in terms of

feel

speaking of that

brand trailers destroyed those markets for the accessibility

too so like

Mitsubishi 3000 GT

or the cool like

Mark II I can't remember the

Turbo MR2s or the NSX

or the

Turbo Supras

100 grand

80 grand 100 grand

so you can't go scratch the itch with that

this is an aside and you I know that you're going to look at scans at me

and I know you've already been like what the hell are you doing

I scratched an itch recently

I picked up a 1996 Tahoe

with a 10 footer paint job

a massive immaculate history

and beautiful cloth interior

I picked it up for

$7,000

and I have not been able to stop driving that car

now I'm getting 13 miles a gallon so that sucks

I'm looking for it that way

but you know can't find a target

go buy a Tahoe

from the 90s

part-handing advice from your friends and enthusiast radio

go get yourself a

$7,000, 8,000

SUV

I'm putting a mild lift on it

and I threw a stereo system in it

anyway I guess

the point on that and we'll bring it all the way back to the Porsche world

is I guess there are ways to scratch the itch

when you

can't find the Porsche drug you're looking for

yeah

in where I also find myself

I especially feel it because

going back to that momentum conversation

that we just talked about

I feel like the market

has softened in the last six months

the market has absolutely softened

and with the economic uncertainty

I have this thing will

where I don't want

to buy at the top of the market

and there is a fear out there of buying at the top of the market

I mean you look at the prices for 993s

you can make the argument

that they are a special car and they're going to continue to be

and you know

in rarefied air

but when you're looking at

dude a 1987 9-11

G-Body Cabriolet

going for almost $70,000

$65,000 people are asking

and you're like

where the hell are we we're on Mars right now

and so

I think that's the definition

when I'm looking at a G-Cab

going for over $60,000

I say we're at the top of the market

and I don't want to jump in so

you start looking at

is a Cayman a $32,000

car for a first generation car

no it's not

and so I think people again just goes back to where they think

the prices should be or were a couple years ago

versus like

hey guys let's just slot in

but ray of hope

I will say

there are some markets

where there are some deals to be found

on the Porsche side and I'm going to mention two

number one

my perennial favorite

the Cayans

you can still get a Cayan

for stupid cheap money

and it is so much car

and there

my Cayan video on 11 after 9 will

if something happened with the algorithm

people have been searching it

it has exploded in the last month

I just picked up a 2013

S or a turbo or what have you

diesel and they are in love

and you can get these things for like 11 grand

13 yeah dude

what you done is you tapped into an underserved

subculture

I did that with bass box during my videos were

just blowing up I'm like what the hell is this

yeah but I mean people want

don't they want 992 Carrera S

content no

they want bass box during Cayan content

but in will

this it because the other car that I want to mention

that is

I've seen come down and soften with the market

outside of 80s 944s

finally coming back to earth is

um

986 and 987 boxers

986 boxers are

back under $10,000

987 boxers are back in the mid teens

instead of being in the mid 20s

and so there is hope out there

for people that want that experience

so don't leave this podcast everyone

saying I will never get a Porsche

again that's not the case

I need to challenge a little bit because

as you were talking I captured like three or four points

um number one this whole idea

if I don't want to buy at the top of the market

this might be this might sound like

I'm just trying to justify myself for overpaying

and getting what I want even though it's foolish

financially but I

I think that where I've landed is

if I'm willing to pay up

maybe it's a small

segment of the of the overall

community but there will be somebody else who will

they're impatient um

I mean dude do you know who's playing in this world

like somebody worth like a hundred million

bucks he doesn't care about paying an extra

$10,000 to $20,000 for cool cars

right for cool cars I'm not talking

about the boxers you were just discussing

but uh yeah but you know what I'll push

back on you dude because I feel like

the people with millions of dollars that are looking

for a Porsche race car or a boxer

or um

I was gonna say boxer spider but I

like an ST or GT3 right that have

hundreds of thousands of dollars they're fine

they're gonna spend that extra whatever

because they want the experience I'm talking

about like the everyday Joe

that has under $100,000 that's

looking for like their first Porsche

and maybe it's really more like 50 or

60 and they're like what can I get

those cars just aren't around

they're being priced out

yeah yeah and I'm talking

about from a buyer perspective right so these are

the guys that they can just afford to snag

those cars out from under them

and I'm a small fry

right I'm not I'm a small fry but I am willing

to overpay by five

or more thousand to get what I want

and so all I'm saying is I'm not that unique

and there are other people that want what they want

and so I'm not too scared these

days about taking that risk where I'm scared

is it's the risk of playing

the game of where's Walder on how I'm gonna get

screwed on a proud auction I don't have an appetite for that

but if I know that I'm playing it safe

I'll overpay by five to ten

and take that risk and say okay even though I'm buying

above market there's somebody else out there

that will see the same value that I see

so there's that

I want to touch on something else that maybe

some people out there are not

aware of and this is a contributing factor

to why you can't find cool cars too

there are independent Porsche

dealers people that

kind of specialize unofficially in

vintage Porsche or

BMW these guys have teams

or I should say teams two to three people

where a significant

portion of their job if not their entire

job is to scour the same platforms

we would scour looking for cool

listings and they will just swoop in

they'll buy these cars without even inspecting them

so you know Joe Schmo

works at XYZ

independent car dealership and his job

is to monitor he's got 18 alerts

set up for whenever you know

an interesting color SC comes up

and they will immediately call that seller

and say look I'll

hire you X okay today

in the car and the shipper

will show up tomorrow and your problem will go away

that dude right there

no PPI no anything just

here's the money and we're going to take it

because the idea of that

car is worth money to them because they can

afford the risk yeah dude

and they position themselves wisely

as sellers who do get

choice examples who refurbished them

to a high degree of quality

and so then they'll be

price above market but somebody will come

along and buy it because they know they sell good cars

so you know congratulations bring a trailer

kick you in the nuts and the

professional buyers have kicked you in the nuts

and so if you're trying to get something cool back to the original

point of this thing

you know there we are if you're watching the video

by the way I'm sitting here I'm looking at my phone

I'm smirking you're going to love this

I got we did a video

or a podcast episode I guess

a week ago on why the base

base trim is the one

to look at versus s

I've got a buddy who runs a factory dealership

and he what did he say to me out of the blue it's like

what time is it 7 30 in the morning he just

texted me the s is a better

9 11 not even close

so I guess he was just

listen to us talk about that

and so that if you're in this

world then you know like you're constantly getting

texts from buddies about this

car that car or whatever and so

I just was smiling to myself off topic

but funny nonetheless Porsche is our

sports so dude I don't

know if we solved anything here outside of

just like really just talking about what our

thoughts are with the market I mean I know

that people are going to have a lot

of ideas to share in the comments

and I welcome it because again

we do read all of them and I want to say thank

you to everyone who's reached out there's

a lot of people that email me like out of the blue

they grab my email like off my

videos and stuff and send me emails just with

their ideas and their thoughts and

that means a lot I love reading them and

I did have two more people this week

that I will that have

have thrown their

support for listening to our

podcast on the lawn mower so we

continue to be the best leading podcast

for people that mow lawns you know what

I don't I don't

in this episode I don't care about follow

up emails what I care about is in the comments

if you have cracked the code

to this problem help a brother out

tell me what your

kind of secret sauce is for finding

cool cars because I am I'm at it

out of ideas

and help the Joe Schmo that is watching

this that is like yes

I can't find a car I've been looking forever

and I want a certain car and I just can't find it

yes but help me first

help with

when that case we're going to gatekeep help will

and help Derek first and then we can

help everyone else yes

Derek it's been fun man I

love this work we do

um

I hope that people out there

enjoying it they seem to be

so let's let's let's do another

one next week what do you think man I get a pep in my

step my friend I'm going to go attack the day

happy Thanksgiving to everyone out there

and will we get to start talking about what we're

going to do for our Christmas episode

or no no no our holiday season

episode come on man woke up woke up

that's okay yeah I'm all about it

that's right the holidays holiday

greeting episode my friend

always have a great week thanks everyone

all right bud

and that's a wrap

for this episode of Renthousias Radio

we hope you enjoyed diving

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