Remarkable Results Radio Podcast Apr 14, 2026

Your Shop Might Need Marriage Counseling: Fixing Communication in Auto Repair [RR 1087]

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Concept

lake effect

Lake effect is when cold air passes over a big lake and picks up moisture. Then it dumps that moisture as snow, so one town can get a lot more snow than another nearby.

Company

PicoScope is a diagnostic tool that lets mechanics look at electrical signals in a car. Instead of guessing, it helps them see what’s happening with sensors and wiring so they can find the problem faster.

Concept

key cutting and programming

This is the process of making a car key and then teaching the car to recognize it. Many newer cars won’t start unless the key is programmed to that specific vehicle.

Company

MT Pro

The MT Pro is a diagnostic tool. The way they describe it, it helps a technician look at what’s happening in the car’s systems so they can find the problem faster.

Concept

vehicle diagnostics

Vehicle diagnostics is how a mechanic figures out what’s actually causing a car problem. Instead of replacing parts randomly, they test and measure to find the real cause.

Term

HP tuners

HP Tuners is software that lets you connect to a car’s computer. Mechanics can use it to look at what the car is doing and find problems, not just to change performance settings.

Concept

diagnostic tool

A diagnostic tool helps a mechanic “talk” to the car’s computer. It can show error codes and real-time sensor readings so you can figure out what’s wrong.

Company

Napa Tracks

Napa Tracks is a program from Napa that helps repair shops get training and support. The goal is to help shops run better and communicate more effectively with customers.

Concept

soft skills

Soft skills are how you talk to people and handle situations. In a shop, it’s things like listening, being clear, and staying calm so customers feel understood.

Concept

front counter

The “front counter” is basically where you talk to the shop staff before work starts. How that conversation goes can affect whether you feel understood and whether the repair process feels fair.

Concept

stigma of I'm a woman. I don't know anything about cars.

This is the idea that some people assume women don’t know about cars. That assumption can change how seriously someone is taken at the shop and can make communication harder for everyone.

Term

service advisor

A service advisor is the person at the shop who talks with you about your car. They help translate what the shop needs to do and keep things organized between you and the mechanic.

Concept

power dynamic

A “power dynamic” means one side feels more in control than the other. In car repairs, the shop usually knows more about what’s going on, so the customer can feel less confident or less able to question things.

Concept

apologize, validate their feelings

This is about acknowledging that the customer feels scared or upset, instead of arguing about whether they’re right to feel that way. It can calm things down so the shop can move forward.

Concept

speed, accuracy, and confidence in every repair

Customers want three things: repairs done fast, done right, and explained in a way that makes them feel sure. If a shop can’t deliver those, people lose trust quickly.

Company

Napa AutoCare

Napa AutoCare is connected to the NAPA parts/service ecosystem. Here, they’re talking about programs meant to help repair shops train their techs and run repairs more smoothly.

Concept

fast track assessments

This is a quick way to figure out what a tech is good at and what they need to work on. The goal is to get people improving faster instead of waiting around.

Concept

accelerator training program

This sounds like an intensive training path meant to help technicians improve quickly. Instead of slow, general training, it’s meant to push learning forward faster.

Concept

torque specs

Torque specs are the exact “tightness” numbers for bolts. Using the right value helps keep parts secure without over-tightening or under-tightening.

Concept

shop management system

A shop management system is the software a repair shop uses to keep everything organized—jobs, paperwork, and billing. If it’s set up well, the shop runs smoother and communicates better.

Concept

profitability

Profitability is the shop’s ability to earn money after expenses. The speaker ties it to optimizing workflow and efficiency, implying that better communication and process control can reduce costly delays and rework.

Concept

efficiency

Efficiency means the shop can do the work without wasting time. Better organization and communication usually make the whole process faster.

Concept

optimize your shop's workflow

Optimizing workflow means improving the shop’s process so cars move through the shop smoothly. It helps prevent confusion between the people working on the car and the people talking to the customer.

Concept

learning management system

A learning management system is a platform that helps companies train employees. It can assign training based on job role so people learn what they need for their specific work.

Concept

stonewalling

Stonewalling means someone basically stops talking or refuses to engage when there’s a problem. In a car shop, it can look like ignoring questions or not responding, which usually makes the situation worse.

Concept

marriage counseling for a business

They’re comparing shop communication to relationship counseling. The message is that better communication inside the team can improve how the business treats customers.

Concept

KPIs

KPIs are numbers a business uses to see if it’s doing well. They’re useful for tracking performance, but they don’t tell you whether people are communicating well or feeling heard.

Part

lug nuts

Lug nuts are the bolts that hold your wheel onto the car. If they aren’t tightened properly, the wheel could loosen and become dangerous.

Concept

customer feels safe

The speaker means the customer feels comfortable talking to the shop. When that happens, people are more likely to explain problems clearly instead of getting defensive.

Concept

notice it over time in these little interactions

The speaker emphasizes that customer trust is built (or damaged) through repeated small interactions, not just dramatic moments. In service businesses, consistent communication habits—listening, acknowledging concerns, and explaining—shape long-term customer experience.

LIVE

This is the Automotive Repair Podcast Network.

Everybody, Karm Capriotto with Vision 2026.

God, man, I don't know.

This could be our eighth year here.

We're just so, so, so happy to be here.

Matt Fonzlo is with me from Riverside up in the great state of Minnesota.

Was it cold up there this year?

We had some pretty good weeks of cold.

Sub-zero, sub- like negative 20.

It's one of the coldest.

I think it's one of the coldest states in the whole U.S., isn't it?

I think, yeah, I think it's recognized as the coldest state in the United States.

Go further north, I think like Maine's further north,

but it's surrounded by the ocean, which is a big heat capacitor,

so it just doesn't get as cold.

Yeah.

There was a bunch of years that I working for corporate America

that I had to go to Minneapolis.

Even though there wasn't a whole lot of snow compared to...

I've been leaving Buffalo with, you know, 30 degree weather.

And I'm going to your place with all kinds of snow,

and then there's no snow there, but I was never colder in my whole life.

Yeah, we don't quite get the same lake effect, you guys.

Yeah, yeah.

Anyway, enough with the weather.

It's becoming spring.

We're here in Kansas City.

I'm impressed with what I see.

I know you're teaching a couple of classes here, aren't you?

What are you doing?

I mean, that's using the word teaching very loosely.

Okay, all right.

Yeah.

You're showing your knowledge?

I mean, it's not a lot to share,

but yeah.

You're inspiring.

I'm definitely sharing.

You're dragging people over the line?

What is it?

What is it screaming?

I mean, by now, everyone should know.

I have no idea what I'm doing.

But I am, yeah.

Scott Shotten and I are presenting a all-day hands-on

PicoScope class at Johnson County Community College

all day Friday and then Saturday morning with Andrew Sexton.

I'm doing kind of an introduction to key cutting and programming.

And then Saturday afternoon is the,

I guess I would like to say popular.

It seems to have a lot of popularity tech talks.

You invented this.

I mean, I stole it, but yeah.

We talked about this in an episode I think we did at ASDA.

And I have to tell you, you're onto something so big here

for people wanting to come up and say,

I think I can be a trainer and give me a shot.

And that's what it is.

Yeah, and also, I think this year in particular,

one of the presenters, I'm probably going to mess up his last name.

So I apologize, but Mike Biancare.

I think that's how you pronounce it.

I think he's recognized by quite a few is being very smart, which he is.

But he is a proponent of a tool called the MT Pro,

which is an eight channel lab scope.

He would like, I think, to start delving into a little bit more of presenting.

However, it's daunting if, you know,

visions putting out the emails or the the the word that they are now looking

for presenters submit classes now for review.

He's looking at that going, I would like to share my knowledge

about this tool or whatever my how I approach a vehicle diagnostics

or something like that.

But the class times are three hours, four hours, eight hours.

That's daunting.

Like, I know, I think I know this tool pretty well,

but do I have three hours of material?

I don't how many slides would I need or what am I going to talk about?

That's really daunting.

What's the stopgap?

How can I take somebody that maybe has a passion for it

and maybe he ends up being brilliant at it, which I think he will be.

But how do we get him into the fold a little bit?

How do we give him a path to go?

I don't know about three hours and I don't want to be the sole solely

responsible for this entire class.

Can I share it with somebody or somebody's?

And now I have to come up with 45 minutes or an hour or an hour

and a half or 15 minutes, whatever it may be.

How do I do that?

There's there's no means to do that.

And then that's tech talks.

Now I'm going to get however many people I need, be it two or six

or whatever for the three or four hours that were in there.

And they bring up something.

It may be a case study on a car.

Hey, I ran into this really cool thing and this is how I found it.

Or this is a tool I really like to use.

I don't think it gets used the right way.

Or I read, you know, I read a lot of stuff online, social media,

professional forums that people go about this, I think the wrong way.

Here's, you know, my take on that or whatever it may be.

So, you know, a couple of years ago, we have somebody talking about HP

tuners, not how to tune the car, but how to use it as a diagnostic tool.

I learned so much in that class about a tool that I already had.

Yeah, I find it's a good way to bring in new people into the fold.

And if you're in the lobby here at Vision 2026, you'll hear some

of the older presenters, educators, whatever.

I and I don't mean that like taking digs at them.

Nobody gets to choose when they're born, but they're on the way out.

They're looking retirement.

They're thinking retirement and they're looking down the line.

Where's the new people?

Exactly.

And we talked about that and asked it and I'd like to come back and talk about that.

But before we go, Matt has a podcast on the Automotive Repair Podcast Network

diagnosing the aftermarket A to Z, tons of fans, great content.

I want to talk about that when we come back.

But thank you so much to Napa Tracks for sponsoring us here at Vision.

Talking to some people about their SMS systems and one of the things

that they have recognized so highly with Napa is their perpetual daily training

and infield people to help them hold their hands and get some of these features

set with their system and also some other really great sponsors here on the show.

Hey, stay ahead of the curve with Napa AutoCare's newest auto tech initiatives,

fast track assessments, accelerator immersive training and tech assist smart support.

The future of technician training is here.

Connect with your local Napa representative for more information.

Hey, let's face it, your shop management system is the most critical tool in your shop.

And Napa Tracks will move your shop into the SMS fast lane with on-site training,

six days a week support and local representation.

Find Napa Tracks on the web at NAPATRACS.com.

Hey, welcome back, Matt.

Let's go back just for a moment about tech talks.

Anyone over the years that you've been doing this reach up into being a full time

or maybe a part time trainer that you know of?

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think some of them starting out,

it was hard to find just people with limited experience presenting.

But I'd say over the years, we've seen them grow into it or on their path to doing it.

And maybe it's not actually teaching full blown classes, but other means, other mediums.

OK. Zebbeard comes to mind.

I think we will see classes from Zebbeard, both diagnostic and even management

slash ownership type one way or another.

He's so cool to listen to the thing I like about he's got that accent.

You know, I'm telling you, it's like a freaking trump card.

I think I mentioned it in an episode that we did last year with Zeb.

I always tell him when I talk in English accent, a Southern accent,

I'm drawn into people that don't talk like a normal Yankee like me.

Right. Well, it's kind of that Southern Arkansas accent.

And then the attitude behind it.

And he is really no BS.

Like if he if he thinks it, he says it.

If anything, say what you will about Zeb, and most of it is going to be very good.

The one thing he's like most people that are very likeable.

He's just genuine.

What what you see is what you get. That's right.

Yeah, he's a no nonsense. Very non sense.

So anyway, I invited Matt into the studio because

I found out that he wrote this incredible article on your shop might need marriage counseling.

After I read the title, I says, I got to read this thing.

Two thousand words to come up to your particular point.

And there will be a point hopefully down the road here that

Matt's willing to share that entire article.

We don't have time right here to justify it.

The theme of this podcast for the last 11 years has been

listen to learn just one thing and please implement what you may have learned.

And the same concept being here at Vision, people are going to take a lot of notes.

They're going to hear a lot of things.

They're going to get a lot of things virtual.

They're going to record some stuff.

And if you let all this great networking and learning go to waste, shame on you.

And the only way this industry is going to continue to improve the professionalism

it so well deserves is we got to be doing stuff.

We got to do things.

You are so passionate about lifting this industry.

Your shop may need marriage counseling.

Where the hell were you when you come up with that?

Well, I was higher than a kite.

No, I don't.

If knowing you, that's the wrong word.

You're just high on life, I think.

Yeah, high on something.

I don't know.

I guess I just correlate a lot of stuff that watching stuff either in the shop,

reading about it on social media, hearing about it and hanging out with people,

it wouldn't have to necessarily be at trade shows or expos or anything like that.

But what I find that makes sense to me is that one,

none of us were born with these communication tools.

We're not.

And then depending on how most of us were raised,

the vast majority of us were never taught how to properly communicate,

right?

At least not constructively.

And it's probably gotten worse over time as parents are both working and social media and

screens are what's raising kids.

So they're even less able to develop tools for communication.

Zero soft skills, because if you had an ounce of soft skills,

you'd at least think before you spoke.

Think before you spoke.

And then, so trying to qualify all this.

The one thing I see at the front counter is you have a power dynamic.

And you see that in relationships.

And marriage is easy when to pick on where there's a power dynamic where maybe more traditionally

you have the man is the one that works, the breadwinner, the provider, and then the female

mother, talking like heteronormal, if you will, that they're raising the kids.

They're the caregivers.

That would be stereotypical.

It's not so much the case anymore.

But there's a power dynamic where he is the breadwinner.

Therefore, he controls the finances and therefore is almost like the boss of the relationship.

That's 20 years ago.

Right.

But we still have a dynamic and we can roll that however you want.

It might be now the woman's a breadwinner.

It may have nothing to do with the breadwinning.

It might have to do with other power dynamics.

And those shift, those may shift where, and I'm not saying that's wildly unhealthy, but

we have a power dynamic.

And therefore, that changes how you communicate and now you're leveraging that power depending

on how you want to do that.

Because of that, we'd never really learned to validate.

And that's a word that gets, I don't know if we say it enough.

And when we do, I don't know that we say it with intention.

But you can validate somebody's feelings without agreeing with them.

And I think that's the issue is we very rarely talk to people about how we feel or how something

made us feel.

And for men, talking about feelings is that might as well be a third language.

It's probably easier for all of us to go learn Latin than to talk about our feelings.

So we never learned to do that.

And then most of us, especially in this profession, we're fixers, right?

We analyze, we fix, there's a cause and effect.

So you come to me and say, hey, Matt, the other day when you said something,

it really kind of made me feel bad about myself or it hurt my feelings or made me feel really sad.

My knee-jerk reaction is to go, well, that's not what I meant.

And how you got there, I don't know how you got there, but this is what I meant.

And I'm breaking apart the conversation that led to your feeling rather than saying like,

because I care about you and we're friends and all that saying,

I'm really sorry about that.

I wouldn't want to hurt your feelings.

Can you tell me more about that?

How did that happen?

What did I say?

Was it sometimes it's not even what you say, it's how you say it, which I am very guilty of.

It's not even what I say a lot of times.

It's how I say it is what really hurts or causes certain feelings.

Yeah, your tone, man, that could just either the monotone or the no cell or whatever it is.

Or the sarcastic or the way your eyes look or the rolled up mouth, the rolled eyes.

That's usually makes people feel pretty bad about themselves.

There's a nice way to say this.

And then there's the other way.

And I go with the other if only for personal entertainment.

But we don't learn to do that.

And we're never taught that and it feels wildly uncomfortable.

And it's weird for us to, as a man, it is very hard to go to somebody and say,

Hey, you know what, when you said that, that made me feel a certain way.

And then that person to go, I'm really sorry that made you feel that way.

Can you tell me more about that?

And then maybe next day or an hour later or two hours later, like,

Hey, could we revisit that a little bit?

Because when I said this, it had nothing to do with that.

And we can do that later when everyone's more at a calm state, if you will.

But we're not taught any of this.

This is not taught in schools.

It's certainly not taught at home.

And you see this happen at the front counter where the customer is saying,

My car is doing this.

And I think women in particular, even if it's not true that the shop,

whoever the service advisor, the customer service rep,

the mechanic, the owner, whoever's talking to them,

already there's the stigma of I'm a woman.

I don't know anything about cars.

Don't kid yourself.

Most men don't know anything about cars either.

But that's already a feeling.

There's already fear.

Now there's a power dynamic that even the person sitting at the counter doesn't know exists.

And I'm asking you to do this.

Now the response of however that is, even if it's a question for clarification,

doesn't come off that way.

It comes off condescending.

And now they're on the defense.

The customer is being very defensive because they've perceived or interpreted your

clarifying question as being condescending to them.

Right.

Because they're already scared.

They don't know anything about cars.

You're going to take advantage of them.

And if everyone in the conversation, but namely the customer service rep or the service

advisor is aware of these things, they can back that up quick and apologize,

validate their feelings of fear, validate their feelings that they felt I was condescending,

even though I wasn't.

But we don't have that kind of training at our counter.

I've never seen it.

I have never seen it or heard about it.

The only time I've heard about it is what conversations we've had on this podcast

and on mine with Margaret Light.

Listen, there's so many service advisor training courses, coaches are offering it.

There's so many independence that are starting up to get ourselves, if you will,

up to speed as an industry in this higher level of sophistication, self-awareness,

confidence, all that stuff.

And I think this is an apropos time for you to have this and bring this up because

it has everything to do with relationships and communications and how it could be applied

to our counters.

I love that part.

It's at the counter.

It's in the shop.

It's in the business.

The dynamic between the front and the back and the front of house and the back of house

and the office, if we don't work on that, the business is failing unless we work on it.

How about that?

I can't speak for you specifically.

You're not so terribly much older than I am, but the way you were raised,

the communication was probably minimal.

There was expectations of you and when you failed those expectations,

you might be of the generation where the leather strap or the switch was used.

You heard?

No, I'm guessing generation-wise.

The belt buckle jingle scared the crap out of it.

My parents, that's how they were raised.

The belt was used often.

And for infractions, we'd probably never consider it.

I deserved it, actually.

But that's how they perceived it, right?

But we learned so much about communications by observing.

I mean, they didn't sit down and teach us.

We observed.

There was a level of integrity and honesty and ethics that just threw us assimilation.

And I'm not saying that we're not doing it today, but there's that dynamic,

I think, of you saying of social media that says,

not don't worry about that.

Well, I think what happens is it gets worse.

Like, not that the corporal punishment was so good.

It has its own set of repercussions.

Then my parents, raising kids, make a conscious decision of we're not going to corporal punish,

or at least not to that level.

But then they unwittingly use shame.

And that, my generation, I think carries a lot of shame.

Well, okay, that makes it where we have pretty thick skin when the owner,

the manager comes over and berates us because we interpret that as like,

I screwed up, I deserve that, I had that coming, right?

And that's generally accepted as good.

That's a positive thing.

The next generation, they don't have that either, right?

So they're labeled snowflakes.

Don't get me wrong, there are cases where I buy into that a little bit, or a lot of it.

There's also cases where they were never given the tools to deal with that,

and shame wasn't such a great way to learn how to deal with it anyways.

Like, just feeling really bad about yourself isn't so great either.

So now we have to have ways to communicate with them

and get what we need without them silently quitting,

silently killing their relationship with the shop.

Silently quitting, we can't have that.

And that's what's happening because they're not equipped with that.

You can't go over and just say, light them up about some mistake they made.

Even if it's a legitimate mistake and it was a bad mistake,

and it could have had severe, severe repercussions to the shop.

Going over there and just lighting them up doesn't work.

They shut down, they probably just go home sick.

They need a mental day, something we've never heard of.

You have almost destroyed them.

So now there's a different way to go about it.

And it's been around for a long time, like it's been around for decades.

And most of us don't learn it until we're sitting on a couch next to our significant others

trying to learn how to better communicate, because that's why our relationships are

falling apart is we never learned how to ask for our desires, our needs.

Needs and desires get kind of used, unfortunately, interchangeably.

Needs are Maslow's hierarchy, right?

And then maybe a few others.

And then there's, I greatly desire this.

And then your partner can say, I can do that, or I don't want to do that.

And that's how it starts.

And then you learn from the Gottmans.

They're the scientific contribution to relationships,

mainly intimate relationships, where they have come up with

overtime of observing couples and getting to the point where they can predict with an insane

accuracy who's going to be divorced in the next two years, five years, 10 years.

It's amazing.

It is amazing.

And it's because of that, you would think we would slowly migrate to learning more about these

facts, if you will, or theories and skills, learning these skills.

Is marriage counseling big today?

I have no idea, honestly.

It's got to be bigger than when I grew up or when I first got married.

Yeah, I think it's more acceptable than ever before.

And I think some people are doing it, they're already in counseling earlier on in life

for their own things.

Like we have a very anxious generation than generation before this generation.

And I know that's speaking somewhat vaguely, but people in there, I don't know,

40 and younger are more anxious than the generation before that.

So they've already been in counseling to learn to deal with social anxieties or just

life anxieties, stuff like that.

So I think people going to counseling is far more acceptable than ever before.

I think before you went to counseling because you were broken,

you're messed up, you need to go to counseling.

Where now it's, I'm going to counseling because I either need someone to help point out my blind

spots or I need this toolkit.

Social anxiety outside pressure is telling me I'm not worthy or I'll never be like them.

So I get depressed.

Is that what this is all about?

That I think a lot of people feel like they're in a lake or a river swimming

with or against the current.

They don't even know they're floundering, feel like they're drowning.

It's everything they can do to keep their head above water.

And they almost need somebody to pull them aside and say like, well,

one, you're not alone.

Two, you're probably doing better than you think you are.

Like you think you're drowning, but you're not drowning.

It's the water's three feet deep and you're choosing to be on your knees.

And somebody needs to tell them that.

And somehow the significant other family, very close friends aren't any help, it seems.

And sometimes they contribute to it negatively, like parents being critical.

And sometimes it's unwittingly critical.

Sometimes I'm asking you these things or I'm telling you these things because I love you

and I want to see you succeed.

But the way I'm structuring it makes you actually feel worse about yourself.

Therefore, down on your knees and the three feet of water feeling like you're,

it's everything you can do to keep your head above.

So the fact is, is I could come in with a little bit different.

It could be tone, it could be structure, all the things.

And next thing you know, they're standing on their feet in three feet of water.

The automotive world is changing fast.

And customers are expecting speed, accuracy, and confidence in every repair.

To keep your shop competitive, your technicians need training that's smarter,

faster, and future focused.

That's why Napa AutoCare is excited to introduce three new auto tech initiatives.

Fast track assessments, the accelerator training program, and tech assist.

It all starts with fast track assessments.

This tool pinpoints a technician's exact skill level.

Whether they're a student, job applicant, or a new hire,

so you know their strengths and where they need improvement

without putting a customer's vehicle at risk.

Then comes accelerator training program.

Using immersive technologies like virtual reality, augmented reality,

and AI driven simulations.

It compresses years of technician development into just months.

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in a safe, virtual first environment with instant feedback.

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while new hires become billable, competent team members in record time.

And once they're on the job, tech assist keeps that support going.

Through AR capable smart safety glasses, your technicians can instantly pull up torque specs,

wire colors, component locations, and even connect with a live expert

who sees exactly what they see, providing guidance step by step.

System integration with information platforms and DVI, streamline workflow,

and boost efficiency.

This assess, accelerate, assist approach helps your shops deliver better quality repairs,

faster training, and long term success.

The full solution launches March 2026, but beta registration is now open.

Want your shop to lead the future of automotive training?

Connect with your local Napa representative today.

Hey, let's face it.

Your shop management system is the single most important tool in your shop, period.

Napa Tracks has made selecting the right shop management system easy

by offering the industry's best, most comprehensive SMS.

Now it all starts when a local representative meets with you to learn about your business

and how you need to run it.

After all, it's your shop, so it's your choice.

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or a large multi-bay or multi-location company, a representative consults with you

to help optimize your shop's workflow, efficiency, and profitability.

Tracks always has the flexibility to do business how you need to do it,

which means it can also grow as your business grows.

And unlike the other guys, we'll be there for you after installation

with the best training and support in the business.

Yes, a learning management system tailored to each role in your company.

Simply put, tracks was designed and built for shop owners just like you.

Visit us on the web at Napa Tracks.

That's N-A-P-A-T-R-A-C-S dot com.

The beauty of what I'm hearing is not only on a personal basis,

but Matt rarely does an episode, thinks, writes,

if it can't relate to the shop and life in the shop.

You, in your article, you talked about how this applies to the four horsemen

of the apocalypse. I never heard of that until I read it in your article.

School me.

Running with the biblical nature of it.

But the four horsemen of the apocalypse of a marriage,

the failure of a relationship, involves, let's see if I can rattle them off.

I have them written.

But we have condescension and we have stonewalling.

There's criticism, contempt, defensiveness, and stonewalling.

How people display them and how often they display them is a really good indicator of

how the relationship is going to fail and when, because of that.

And those are the pillars, maybe not the pillars.

The constructs.

Yeah, those are really the constructs of most relationships.

Let's pick on stonewalling.

That's usually the male territory and a lot of shame.

So I would say that is my number one default.

So if my wife comes to me, maybe not so much anymore, but you're even not even terribly

long ago, but years ago, if she had something to say that wasn't necessarily critical,

I would interpret it that way.

And she could come to me with a feeling like, hey, you know, when you forgot to pick up whatever

when after I asked you that made me feel whatever said, just would speak vaguely.

I wouldn't hear that.

I wouldn't validate the feeling right away.

It's like, geez, I made a mistake.

I'm sorry, I freaking forgot.

You know, it's 530.

I want to be home.

I got to cook dinner.

I got to do all these things.

So yeah, I saw my watch.

I saw my phone.

It's 530.

I got to get home.

I got to start dinner.

I totally spaced doing it.

It's just super defensive.

She might say like, hey, hey, hey, I'm not getting on your case about it.

I'm just telling you, this is how it made me feel.

And then I would just boom, throw up the walls and she might as well not exist.

You felt bad that you couldn't reach your personal goals.

She recognized the point that you were late and all of a sudden there's a clash.

Even though you were both, you know, you were doing the right thing and she was just trying to

help you through the fact that we got stuff to do.

Right.

And actuality, the interpretation should be me of her is she is better trying to help me love her

the way she needs me to love her.

And not jumping on your back.

Right.

And even though I messed up in something I did hurt her feelings,

rather than me trying to feel those feelings of it sucks to hurt people who loves feelings.

It just sucks.

I got to do more of that for Ann because she's always trying to correct me.

Right?

Yeah.

I never can do anything right.

Sometimes it feels that way.

That's why she's saying Ann.

But there is the reality of sometimes, and that example probably doesn't qualify,

but there's times where you may say something and it hurts their feelings.

And you can say like, I'm sorry, I would never want to hurt your feelings, but tell me more.

But then you have to come back to it at some point.

We have to revisit this because you're interpreting in that way.

Sucks for me because I had zero intentions.

This is what I meant by that.

That has to be talked about in the moment is absolutely not the time to do that.

Right?

And when somebody comes to you with their feelings is exactly not the time to start talking about

yours.

If you have feelings, fine, write it down, come back to it.

Don't talk about it at that point.

But with those four horsemen, with the condescension and the criticism and the stonewalling,

the defensiveness, you can watch this in the shop all day, every day.

Right.

And it happens at the front counter.

It happens in the office.

It happens in the back.

So it's just like take your shop for an example and you see this stuff going on.

Oh, we're also well adjusted.

This just doesn't qualify.

Of course.

I'm sorry.

You're perfect.

Let's pick another shop.

Shop B.

ASC has tech A, tech B, we have shop A, shop B.

Okay, let's go to shop B.

Shop B.

It's always shop B.

The imaginary Riverside.

How do we, or you, in recognizing this, you realize it's going on and you see some of this

percolating, have you gotten involved?

Yeah.

And I don't want to make it sound like it's so strategic because it wasn't.

It's more just trying to be very subtle with it.

And a lot of it was just through my own, like getting better about it at home translates to

getting better at work.

Ah, I like that.

Honestly, that's it.

If it's working at home, you know you could bring it to, at home, bring it to work.

Correct.

And maybe at work, it isn't so much defensiveness, but it could be stonewalling.

It could be criticism.

Like criticism is really hard.

You feel like you're in a somewhat no-nonsense environment.

So therefore, I'm trying to be no-nonsense, but it is actually quite critical.

And it's not even criticism by itself is bad.

It's criticism with condescension.

That's the damaging stuff.

At some point, we're going to have to be critical.

We're going to have to call people out on their stuff.

That's double bad.

Right.

But if you're doing it from a place of superiority, now you've got a problem.

You're creating a problem.

And people don't generally respond well to that.

Marriage counseling for a business, think about it.

Really?

It translates.

Can you imagine getting together with the entire team and have a Margaret Light sit in front?

It said, listen, I've hung out for two days.

I felt I saw, let's talk about how we can sit by the campfire and sing kumbaya.

Now, I know that sounds a little tongue-in-cheekish,

but how much better can the company be in its communication skills and serving the customer,

the level of professionalism by getting rid of criticism,

contention, defensiveness, and stonewalling?

If you can fix it at work, maybe you could take it home.

Instead of saying, I did it at home.

I could bring it to work.

It doesn't matter where you start fixing it.

Yeah.

And maybe not to this degree, but I'm going to compare it a little bit.

And I don't want it to be like apples to apples.

It's not.

It can't be.

But one mantra is, good therapists have good therapists.

Right?

That's one.

And two, oftentimes we're in conversations about certain entities, certain professions,

like law enforcement.

They should all have regular counseling.

You cannot deny that that job, oftentimes, you see the worst of people.

You see people at their worst, and it starts to affect you.

They need a way to go and have those blind spots checked,

toolkits given to be able to re-center.

That should happen, right?

But why doesn't that translate to the shop?

Why wouldn't we ever consider on retainer a therapist of some sort, a counselor of some sort?

And maybe it isn't every week.

I don't know, maybe it starts out every week, but everybody has access.

All right.

Stop.

It's not a sign of weakness to want to have this done.

And in fact, just watch police shows on TV.

Pick one, because there's a million of them out there.

How often, after two or three episodes in a row,

somebody needs to go to speak to someone because they shot somebody.

Something happened.

The older generation is, no, no, no.

I don't need this stuff.

And the younger generation seems to be more pliable, and they want to talk to someone.

I think it's a brilliant idea of being able to talk out your feelings,

especially if you don't know how to verbalize them with anyone.

Yeah.

Verbalize them, communicate them.

You know, I get to abuse the I feel statements, but it's true.

And you don't have to say those verbatim, but it's really coming in with a feeling,

not saying, hey, you did this.

Or maybe you say, this happened.

Let's talk about it.

You were mean when you said that.

That doesn't work.

Right.

No, I wasn't.

What are you talking about?

You hurt my feelings.

I can't argue that.

Right.

And I shouldn't.

I shouldn't want to.

The other thing is, like you said, you brought up weakness.

That's interesting.

We should know this by now.

I think generations ago, toughing it out, that was viewed with respect.

Like that person, they went through hell.

I mean, oh, whatever it is.

And they came out the other side whole.

How do you know?

You never heard them complain.

Yeah.

How do you know they came out whole?

Right.

They're so freaking destroyed inside, but they put up a really good facade.

Asking for help is not a lot of times.

Most of the time is not a sign of weakness.

That's a sign of strength because now I've had to check my ego.

I can do this all by myself, but I can't.

How could I?

How could I possibly be my best counselor?

I'm the worst.

I'm the easiest person to lie to, and I'm really good at lying to myself.

Asking for help is often a massive sign of strength.

It doesn't matter what everyone else thinks.

They don't.

They can't know, but you have to know.

Sometimes asking for help is a massive sign of strength.

It doesn't matter if it's this for communication.

It could be for a substance use disorder.

Finally admitting, I can't control this anymore.

I never could.

Nobody could.

I have to ask for help.

And that is a massive, huge sign of strength.

Like I've had to accept my lack of ability in this, my lack of skill, my lack of knowledge.

I can't do this alone.

The level of professionalism in our industry that we have to all work toward

can't get done without the ego being dropped and for people recognizing,

listen, I started my business.

I never, I never went to, I never read a business book.

I've never gone to a conference, but it's time that I learned how to be a better businessman.

There's all kinds of ways to learn that the podcast network perfect plays forward.

I know coaches that have coaches.

And in fact, what I think you're doing, and we're saying in this podcast episode,

to owners, if you have a coach, that's great, but you may, this person may be driving

numbers and KPIs and processes and systems and finance, but not necessarily will they

always help you with the people's side of you or the emotional bank account that could be

weak and lacking as you're trying to build, you know, the business over here.

How hard is it to find a therapist?

You pick up the phone, you talk to people.

Hey, do you have a therapist?

Are you kidding me?

What are you kidding?

How do we, let's talk about, how would we start as a shop owner, as a lead specialist in the

Bayes? How do we start?

My knee jerk is we all start writing letters to Margaret Light to start some network,

like better help for auto repair shops that they can find therapists.

But it's like looking for anything, right?

You're going to start out probably on Google, Google reviews, referrals, stuff like that.

And then you're going to try to find somebody that you vibe with, I guess, for lack of a better

word or maybe vibe isn't a good word because you can, you could be with a therapist that you get

along with and you feel like a friend, but they never push you and they need to push you.

They need to forge a relationship with you of some degree that you care about.

And then they got to start pushing you. They have to start giving you some tool kits and

demand of you that you use them and put them into practice. Because otherwise, you're just

spending an hour, however many times a month or whatnot, shooting the breeze with a friend

that pats you on the back and you feel better, but you're not getting out.

But that's a disinterested party that has nothing at stake in family and or in business

that allows you to at least get something off of your chest that's not valuable.

It's valuable to a degree, but it's not going to help you. It'll make you feel better in the

moment and it's not going to make you better. It's a momentary good feel. I released. It's

like going to confession. But you never figured out what led to it or what's your contribution

to it. It's like going to confession. Bless me, father. I've used the Lord's name in

vain 10 times. You go back in two weeks and you say, I've used the Lord's name in vain 10 times.

You just keep doing it. Yeah. Say 10 hill mayors. At some point,

when does he pull you aside and say, Hey, you know what? Come to my office.

Tell me about your day. This was a strange analogy. Not really. I mean, it's kind of

what it is. You call up a friend and it's like, man, today sucked at work. One of my employees

left lug nuts loose and that wheel could have came flying off. Could you even imagine and stuff

like that? And then they're just coaching you through it a little bit and you feel better

in the moment. Okay. I probably won't fire them now, but you don't go back and do the process

of what led to the loose lug nuts from a process type standpoint. And then also,

do you ever address the part where you went and screamed at the top of your lungs to this

technician or technical specialist? It'd be mechanical specialist technically, right?

You never address how you screamed at the top of your lungs to this mechanical specialist

in front of everybody about how they could have killed somebody and

ruined the reputation of the shop and nobody leaves lug nuts loose and how dare you, all these

things, like of all the things to forget, that's what you're going to forget. You're going to

maybe look at the process of we got to stop taking this person off cars to go do something

else, give people rides, go pick up parts, whatever it may be, but you never address the part where

you made a fool of them in front of everyone or you made an example of them or whatever took

out your fears on them, made them feel extremely small and horrible and shameful and all the things,

you never addressed that. And also, how could you have handled that better? Do you really think

they left them loose on purpose? You can take them back to your office and explain to them the

gravity of that mistake without doing it in front of everybody, without making them feel shameful,

especially if it's somebody that just rarely makes mistakes, like you can't remember the last

time they had a comeback or something was done wrong, you could come to them with support, like,

you know, I'm glad that didn't go out the door, good catch or it's good thing, so and so caught that

and then don't worry about it. Like, I'm glad you feel bad about it because you care, but

I don't feel bad about it because I know you wouldn't try that on purpose and

you're a good tech, you're a good mechanic, you're a good mechanical specialist, you do a good work

here. I'm not worried this is ever going to happen again, just take it easy, right? And I'm not

saying like kid glove things, I'm just saying you can come in with a, from a angle of support

in front of everybody and then pull them off to the side and private and just the gravity of that,

like, you know, this could have been bad. And I know, I know, okay, well, I don't, I don't need you

to feel bad then. Exactly right. Now ask them, like, what part of the process do you think led

to that? And it could be, now we're going to go down the rabbit hole of Common Cause, Special Cause,

but how did it break down? I mean, there's, what do you think happened? And honestly,

boss, I just spaced it, I can't tell you why. Matt, can we do this stuff in the real world?

Yeah, absolutely. So please use this episode to look deep inside and do some of the things that

Matt's suggesting. His 2000 word article, hopefully Matt, we can make that available in some, some

way to get it downloaded and online because we're not doing it justice because you just,

you hammered a lot of great stuff in that article, the who, the what, Ben's where and how's in it.

And as you're talking about criticism, contempt, defensiveness and stonewalling,

and there isn't anyone listening to this episode that can't relate, that they continue to do this

stuff or over and over again, or maybe when you were a younger person and now you've kind of matured

and you've, you've grown and you've seen different parts of life, which is allowing you to make

yourself a better, more compassionate person. And if you're the leader of the operation,

you do it for the sake of all your peoples, you do it for the sake of the client, you do it for

the sake of you, you'll never hire really good people who find out that there's a

unrest inside the business because we can't seem to come to terms with this, the loosey,

goosey stuff that we need marriage counseling for, business counseling, maybe that's the right

words, maybe you need business counseling and no, it's not coaching. It's all to do with emotions

and how people feel and how we make them feel. And we'd like to talk a lot of crap about culture.

Oh, our, our shop culture. Oh, you got to improve your culture. Well, there it is.

There's a really big freeway to a better culture. Exactly right. Exactly right. Maybe that's part

of the title of this episode, improving your culture with marriage counseling.

That's a good start. But you know what? I'm almost to the point where, and we talk a lot

about culture on the podcast, we did tons of episodes and I'm wondering if it's just,

well, yeah, it's, I don't want to, I don't want to listen. I don't want to hear it.

And part of my concern is, and maybe we should have led with this, is you could take this,

I mean, I love sarcasm probably more than I should. You know what? I really do.

You're the king of it. I wish. No, you are. I don't know if that's good.

We're voting it. I'm worried that listeners, if they don't make it to this point,

go to a little bit of an extreme and it's not a little bit. It's a lot of bit of an extreme that

somehow the shop will have to get a sharing stick or a sharing wrench that we hand around in a,

you know, sharing circle. No, that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about these

little interactions and some of them big, but a lot of them are just little interactions.

And it's just changing your delivery a little bit. It's changing your responses a little bit.

You could do this as a leader, manager, owner, whatever, shop foreman, you could do little

things. Nobody would probably even know, except they just know they feel better about work and

being at work and they feel better about coming to you with more and more things. All of a sudden,

you're kind of thinking to yourself like the open door policy, nobody ever used to come into the

open door unless they were just steaming mad and, hey, you haven't reviewed me in two years. I haven't

had a raise. They come in after they've carpet baked for how long and they're just explode into

your office. Now you realize those explosions are almost non-existent and they're coming in

more often. That's what you would recognize as a leader. And the other things you just notice

at the front counter, there's not that shops have it happen a lot, but minimal if any meltdowns

from customers or just really tense. Like maybe we don't see the dramatic reality TV meltdowns

at the front counter ever, but there's definitely tense moments. There's definitely times where

now that customer isn't our customer anymore. They just kind of silently left. Well, that doesn't

happen so much anymore. Our customers kind of are our customers because they feel safe.

They come to the shop feeling safe. They're talking to whoever is behind the counter,

male or female. Typically, we associate females behind the counter as being a little bit better

or a lot bit better, a lot better at it than men. But now it doesn't matter because they've taken

tools from marriage counseling and applied it at the front counter. And now it doesn't matter who

it is coming in with their vehicle and their problems and their fears. Maybe they brought

their cardio and it's a comeback. Like, hey, ever since you, but now because you have these tools,

the shop interprets it differently. And that customer feels safe telling you about it that

they're not going to get the defensive owner going like, well, that has nothing to do with that.

We didn't do that. How could you possibly think us doing a break job on your car would cause

your radio to stop working? It just doesn't happen. You wouldn't notice it in these great big

moments. You would notice it over time in these little interactions. And that's real-world stuff,

too. But it is real-world. It is real-world. Ever since you did this, now this. I know.

And don't say that if you're listening that it's never happened to you, you've never heard.

Oh, you're not paying attention. Yeah, you're not. Man, thank you so much for your perspectives

on everything, your wisdom and all that you do for our industry. And of course, the podcast here

on the Automotive Repair Podcast Network. Diagnosing the aftermarket A to Z, we just diagnosed you

today. And the doctor here, here's the prescription. Go find, go get a counselor. Hey, thanks so much

for this. We got to figure out how to get that 2000-page article out there for people to listen to.

Maybe just maybe we can put a link to it in the show notes of this episode because it's

brilliant. Appreciate you doing that. Thanks for coming on, man. Thanks for having me.

Thanks for being on board to listen and learn from the Premier Automotive Repair Business

Podcast, Remarkable Results Radio. Get your episodic education on the ARPN

listening app at AutomotiveRepairPodcastNetwork.com. Also, enjoy the podcast on our Carm Capriato

YouTube channel. Carm is all for advancing the professional automotive service industry. Until

next time.

0:00

47:26

Your Shop Might Need Marriage Counseling: Fixing Communication in Auto Repair [RR 1087]

lake effect

PicoScope

key cutting and programming

MT Pro

vehicle diagnostics

HP tuners

diagnostic tool

Napa Tracks

soft skills

front counter

stigma of I'm a woman. I don't know anything about cars.

service advisor

power dynamic

apologize, validate their feelings

speed, accuracy, and confidence in every repair

Napa AutoCare

fast track assessments

accelerator training program

torque specs

shop management system

profitability

efficiency

optimize your shop's workflow

learning management system

stonewalling

marriage counseling for a business

KPIs

lug nuts

customer feels safe

notice it over time in these little interactions

About this episode

Original notes