251: A Defeated Sigh

This is the What Car EV Podcast for Thursday, December 18th, 2025, Episode 251, a defeated

sigh.

I started last week's episode, I think, I don't remember, that was a week ago.

I think I started last week's episode talking about buying a new to me car.

And how my wife was, like, no to the Model S.

Apparently, Consumer Reports agrees with this.

For completely different reasons than what my wife was saying.

And we'll get to this.

We will get to this.

I'm Phil Royal.

I am potentially car shopping, although update on that, I don't know, I'm waffling.

Anyway, I am also the guy who's not only car shopping, but also telling people to

go to youtube.com slash at the what car.

So if you're listening with your ear holes right now, maybe stop and view with

your eye holes at youtube.com slash at the what car where you can watch us make

fools of ourselves in public.

My turn.

Well, you were about to jump in.

Okay, I will finish mine with my experience in the automotive industry.

Very much mirror is yours.

Yes, you tell everybody what we've been right to add Sanchez.

Been in the car biz for a while.

Been in the podcasting biz for about five years, if you've cared to follow along.

And that's sad.

And speaking of your have gray hair back then.

I am, I guess, responsible or culpable for our shorts.

Yes.

If you've been following the channel, we've been doing quite a few of those lately.

So hope you've been enjoying those.

And if you're watching this on a short YouTube shorts, we're talking about

YouTube shorts.

Yeah, not my shorts, but please a better name.

It's really a dumb name.

Please follow along our full length episodes on all your major

podcast platforms, YouTube music, Spotify, Apple podcasts, all those places.

I just said stop listening to us and go to YouTube.

Well, whatever, if you're out for your jog or road trip or whatever.

Yeah, I guess it works.

Audio is fine.

It's not like when you're driving, so what's the big news?

Okay.

So consumer reports, this was an article on electric.

Everything we talk about links in the show notes.

This was an article on electric and they did a piece on consumer

reports saying that Tesla ranked dead last in used car reliability study.

For the earlier models.

But exactly the earlier models, which is what I'm looking at or was looking at

before we put the kibosh on that.

But they said it's been a while since I wrote this quote down.

While the brand sits at number 26 for used cars for 2014 to 2019, the brand

being Tesla and apparently number 26 is like last.

Tesla's new cars tell a completely different story.

Consumer reports most recent new car reliability rankings.

Tesla jumped into the top 10.

The Model Y, now the best selling car in the world, achieved a reliability score

of 81, which is considered a quote unquote, excellent.

And rivals the top Japanese brands, which is pretty good.

Unfortunately, your car does not make that list.

Your Model 3.

Yeah, my mind's in the crap quality category.

One star would not recommend, which is hilarious because how many issues

have you have with this car?

Not many, although one of them was a little expensive.

And I can't remember what episode we discussed this on.

But I had some odd tire wear issues, like kind of weird wear patterns.

And the tire place I took it to, part of their services, they go around

and inspect your suspension and bushings and all that.

And they said your bushings are like completely shot.

So I don't know if that was directly attributable to my tire wear or whatever.

Or if it was just out of alignment or whatever.

But they said we would recommend you take it in

and have the bushings replaced.

Of course they would.

So, I'm sure there are some independent shops around here that specialize in Tesla's.

I don't know of them off the top of my head, but.

So like the chump I am, I took it to the Tesla service center for OEM work.

And you said take advantage of me, sir.

I am here.

So that was 1400 bucks.

But you know, I mean, that's really the first major repair I've had since I've owned it, really.

I mean, thankfully the few relatively minor issues I've had were under warranty.

And this was the first big one out of warranty.

The most significant one that I can remember.

I mean, sure, that's a significant, I guess, if your tires aren't all

pointing the same direction, that might be a problem.

But the most significant one was, didn't your charge port door stop opening?

Yeah, but that was like it was early on.

I think that was like within the first year.

And it was under warranty.

But this was probably what Consumer Reports is looking at is like, yeah,

if you get a gas car and you can't open the fuel cap, kind of an issue.

And this is the equivalent of that is eventually you run out of charge and distance.

So I could see, no, I don't know with more modern ones.

Maybe that was a problem that carried on, you know, 2019.

You were right on the bubble, possibly 2020s had that problem as well.

Who knows? I don't know.

But I looked around.

One of the few cars that I was excited about for shopping for was an early 2010s model.

There was that, a couple others.

And then I've looked at like, oh, the timing belt on certain enthusiast vehicles

that it's like $1,000 in a full day for me to do the job.

You were looking at a I would consider as somewhat unusual candidate.

But it's actually a pretty common car in the civilian guys.

But the specific variant you were looking at was very specific.

The Volvo that I was looking at.

No, the the the interceptor.

Oh, yeah. OK. Yeah.

No, I had a couple of interesting ones, didn't I?

I was looking at the Volvo V60 T5

and you could get it in premium with all-wheel drive for pretty decent price.

But all of those were timing belt and all required a timing belt job

because they were all being sold at about 100,000 miles.

Yeah, just when it's due, they're like, OK, your problem.

And for me to buy this stuff to do it, the belt in the water pump is about $1,000.

Or you could pay somebody to do it.

And when I looked online, it was like $2,500 or $3,000.

So I would do it myself. It's a it's a full day job.

But then you'd be good for another 100,000 miles.

And then you'd have whatever.

So then I looked at police interceptors.

Now, to be clear, those are kind of long gone.

Yeah, no, these were the explorers.

Yeah, with the 3.7 liter, was it?

2.7 for that generation, the ballistic front doors and the bar.

Yeah, someone had the bull bar.

They all had the lights and all of them

needed a center console because that's all removed.

And then I started looking at some BMWs and whatever.

And now I'm where I am in my mind is I might as well just put a new

transmission in the car I've got.

Have you determined that's what the issue is?

Well, no. So there's the exciting part.

And this is the car that my wife drives all the time.

So she says no to the twenty or the twenty thirteen slash twenty fourteen model S.

So I'm thinking she gets to drive this car until it explodes at the side of the freeway.

At which point, I'll jump in my truck with my trailer, go pick her up.

She could Uber wherever she needs to go.

I'll go pick the car up and then I'll change the transmission.

So she gets to drive it until it dies.

That's where I am in my mind right now.

That may all change by next week, which we're not doing an episode next week.

Yes. So yeah.

Better than a poke in the eye.

So anyway, that's my story, the progress.

I did look at the bolts and the bolts are right in my price range.

And you get a nice bolt for like a grand snug for your situation.

That's they're kind of snug and kind of goofy looking.

Yeah, good cars, though.

Yeah, no, I on paper.

Fantastic sitting in my driveway.

Not sure I want to be there.

Yeah, not that I'm in the image a lot.

Like you should I've got some pretty crappy stuff.

My house is falling to pieces, but I draw the line.

The bull.

All right.

I also draw the line apparently or Ford draws the line at the same place.

I kind of draw the line, which is electric trucks.

Bad idea.

Yeah.

So this was, I think, by far the biggest story of the week.

I don't know if I'd say totally unexpected or not.

I mean, was that a defeated side side that you just made?

I don't know.

I mean, I think this is something we've kind of bantered about.

I'd say on and off for the past couple of years about how

EV trucks, the technology really isn't at a point at where

they really make functional sense and that.

Finally, the industry is kind of coming around to E revs as kind of

maybe the better solution.

And that's where Ford's landed.

So a couple of months ago, they they quote, paused

production on the on the lightning.

And they said, well, we might bring it back.

We might not bring it back.

Well, they're bringing it back, at least not in its current form.

Yeah.

So they basically announced the next generation lightning is going to be an E rev.

They haven't released a lot of details other than one upping Ram, I guess.

So this new model, whenever it's coming out and again, don't have any details yet.

Vague.

Yes, very vague.

Generator backed estimated range of more than 700 miles.

And I think the Ram was 690, I think.

So just that much more.

Exportable power, kind of like the power boost, kind of like the current lightning.

Yeah, they already that's old, like they already have that.

Yeah, they can't backpedal on.

Yeah.

Um, yeah, details on availability and pricing, all that announced a later date.

Um, so there's that.

The generator is going to be something they already produce.

It's going to be some kind of V six something or four.

Or four.

Yeah, it's going to be an engine they already have.

So, so interesting.

I got a little, little note on that.

So I actually kind of got into a little back and forth with, I guess, a four program

manager on LinkedIn, I get into a lot of interesting conversations on LinkedIn.

It's kind of weird.

And sometimes, you know, I usually just post comments up there, not expecting a

reply, but every now and then I get a reply and I'm like, Oh, okay.

So they want to play ball.

All right.

So the Ford guy.

So I said, I said, I hope they can retain the front.

And he's like, well, it probably won't be the same size, which sounds to me like

there won't be one.

Yeah, no, this.

Well, okay.

They've got to put an engine somewhere.

Okay.

But let's, let's, let's unpack this a little bit.

So if you're just doing the standard, like engine placement, which would be

necessitated if it was just a conventional, you know, hybrid or P have, you got to

connect it to the transmission, you got to connect it to a drive shaft, blah, blah, blah.

E rev, you could, you could put the engine anywhere really, because you just basically

it attaches to a generator and the generator sends power to wherever.

So I was thinking why there's no reason they couldn't put the engine either behind

the cab, you know, under the bed or lay it flat.

If it's like a inline engine, like a, like a four cylinder, you lay it down flat.

You could still retain a front of some sort.

Now, it may be smaller.

I mean, it may be, you know, five, three or five cubic feet instead of 10.

But yeah, they could totally even if it just, yeah, if it went in the traditional spot, you

could just get a little four cylinder, drop it down and all the way back and still have

some kind of from the sound of it, it sounds like it's probably going to be under the hood

in some form, because I think if, if they were going to retain the front, he probably

would have said, stay tuned, winky face.

And so he's kind of basically saying,

that's not him calling you winky face.

That would actually be an emoji.

Exactly.

But yeah, it kind of sounds like the, the range of center will probably be under the hood.

There could be some vestigial kind of like maybe enough for like a duffel bag.

But I think, I think it's kind of a foregone conclusion.

It's not going to be this massive cargo area like the current lightning, unfortunately.

But and so I joked with them.

Of course, you know, me and the midgate, I had to get a plugin for the midgate.

I said, well, if you include a midgate, I'll forgive it, not having a frunk.

So no response to that.

So I don't know.

No, I don't think Ford's going to go down the midgate path.

Unfortunately.

Well, I mean, well, because, well, so everyone associates it with GM and the avalanche, but

actually Ford had it first in a concept.

Gosh, I can't remember the name of the concept.

But Ford had the midgate first, but GM is the one that put it in production.

But anyway, is this like Mercedes was actually the first one with a rotary

engine, something like that?

Mazda was the first was it out?

It was another.

It was the predecessor of Audi called Auto Union or, or, uh,

Auto Union or NSU had had a Winkle rotary engine.

But the one that's known for kind of rare obscure car that like no one's heard of.

Yeah.

But Mazda is the one that made a famous.

Yeah, they get the credit for it, but it wasn't actually them that did it first.

So anyway, um, Frank, Frank aside, conceptually, this is the better,

the better solution, the better approach.

And probably they should have led.

I mean, you know, like they say hindsight's 2020, they probably should have

come out with the era first, waited for charging infrastructure, battery technology

of that to evolve and improve, then done a full electric.

But, you know, instead of costing him $20 billion, like they're just kind of.

So yeah, anyway, then now they're not to be clear for it's not giving up on

EVs completely, they're still doing the low cost modular, you know, they're

going to do like the, you know, pick up crossover.

It just doesn't make sense with now I say that and I'm about to contradict

myself, which is, you know, my, that is my cup of tea here.

And that the podcast there is when it comes to a truck, truck, pick up truck

that does pick up truck things you need right now, you need an engine in there.

Whether it's a plug in hybrid or it's an E rev where it's still all electric,

but you've got the onboard generator, you need that if you're going to tow, if

you're going to do anything that requires a lot of weight or some kind of

aerodynamic buffer thing that's dragging behind you.

That said, I think there's still a market for things like the R1T, the Rivian.

I think an adventure vehicle, like if Jeep did a Gladiator EV, I think that there's.

Well, they were, they were going to do, I don't know, pardon my bad pun, I'm about to

slow down.

I don't think they pulled the plug on the Gladiator 4 by E that was in the pipeline.

I don't know if they've since kind of I don't think they know what they're doing

at this point, but there's definitely a market for the adventure vehicle pickup.

If you're going to throw bicycles in the back, skis, surfboard, whatever it is,

there is that market.

And if I didn't tow a camper, that would definitely be something that I'd look at

because I do go and ride my bike places.

I do go surfing.

I do these things, but but with the travel trailer, with the travel trailer.

Yeah, I like that in the race car.

Like it's not it's just something that I could do.

So there's a kind of a market for both.

But not really.

I think that the adventure vehicle market is very small.

And I think right now it's Jeep and Rivian.

I don't think you could have like 10 other trucks.

I think you've got the market for truck trucks.

And then you've got a handful of like the boutique adventure.

So do you think do you think Scout's going to?

What do you think is going to happen with them?

I don't even think I'm going to pick up kind of a tweener.

Yeah, I think of them as more of the SUV.

Thing. Yeah, OK, even though one of them is going to be a truck.

Yeah, but I just don't.

I bet that doesn't stick.

I bet it's the SUV.

That's the model that keeps going forward.

But even there, aren't they saying didn't I should look this up?

This is the problem with having a conversation,

is I don't have all this information in my fingertips.

Didn't they they cancel the electric versions or delay them?

They haven't.

And so many words they haven't said, they've totally canceled it.

They've just said like something like 80 percent of reservations have been for the E ref.

And there's not a market when you're talking about a niche vehicle

and only 20 percent of the niche for this vehicle ordered the truck.

I think my feeling on the scout is they're just going to kind of quietly drop the

EV version and since I mean, they're not directly related,

but they're kind of loosely tied together.

I think a full EV version of the scout would potentially compete with Rivian,

which now kind of has a tie in with VW.

So at least if the scout was exclusively E ref,

at least it wouldn't completely be competing with Rivian.

So. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. So, you know, I mean, I guess it's not as you said,

this fourth thing was a big story of the week.

It was a big story in that shocking.

No, it's not surprising.

I figured something like this would probably happen at some point.

I guess the surprise is that it's the irrevers replacing the EV version.

I think I think a lot of people expected they would come out with an era variant,

but it would be in addition to the lightning, but it is the new lightning

effectively and the fact that they've they've just basically made it public.

They basically admitted a lot of things in this press release.

Like, yeah, we kind of we totally miscalculated the market

were taking a big financial hit because of this,

but we think this new strategy is the right one.

So, you know, I'll give them I'll give them credit for having the.

The the moxie, because since this is a family show

of kind of admitting they screwed up and kind of trying to turn things around.

I think it could be potentially extremely popular.

No, it is a way to go.

Like, yeah, I think the next problem is going to be similar to a Stellantis of

when it comes to buying an F-150 and you could get something with a V8

or you could get something with a two and a half liter four cylinder

or whatever it is they put under the hood.

Yeah, even though it's not driving the wheels,

it's still kind of a hard sell because right now I know.

But I mean, like, like we've we've said a million times or I have is butts and seats.

Now, assuming like total system output in this, let's say it's like 700 horsepower

and you get in this thing and it's like, wow, this thing really moves out.

Whereas you get into a coyote or an eco boost and which are not slow trucks,

you know, by conventional measures.

But in comparison, it would be like, man, these make a lot of noise

and they they're really not that fast.

And, you know, this thing's quiet and like super quick and high tech.

And it's, you know, you could export like, you know,

2.4, you know, kilowatts and, you know, it's got all these bells

and whistles and features, whereas the standard ones are kind of meh.

Yeah, I mean, although they can still do the power export for the most part.

The power boost can the regular models have like a lower level.

I mean, they do have power export, but it's not like yeah, high level.

But I mean, I don't know.

I mean, it sounds like it's going to find out.

Yeah, well, I've got a lot more I could talk about about this,

like like the Hemi coming back out and like all the reviewers saying,

not really worth it.

It's only if you want to thump your chest and say you got a Hemi.

But basically the hurricane like outclasses it and almost every measurement.

So they're like, yeah, if you just have to have a Hemi and have to brag,

you got a VA, cool.

But they're like, you know, the hurricane objectively is a better choice.

So, you know, I don't know.

I don't know how this is going to land.

But Kudos for it.

I think ultimately this was the right decision.

Going to look forward to when we get a few more details on it.

Well, and it might open.

I don't want to belabor this.

We need to move on.

But it might also open the door for that the small vehicle special team,

the skunkworks team they've got going on in California.

For small vehicle electrics.

This may open the door for something like a Maverick.

EV to compete with like the slate and like the slate's going to make it.

Well, I think that's probably what's going to be coming.

Yeah.

But so that might be it might not be the end of EV trucks for Ford.

It might just be the end of full size EV.

Yes, that's what they basically said.

We're not giving up on EVs.

We're just giving up on the big ones.

But it yes, but it might not be even the end of the EV pickup for them.

This could be opening the door for the smaller pickup.

Yes, although who knows?

And what is small anymore?

Because you've now got the Maverick and you've got the Ranger and you got the F-150.

And it's like the Maverick's the same size as like mid sizes were like 10 years ago.

So it's yeah.

So anyway, all right.

So we were speaking of Rivian.

Yes.

And they've got AI and Autonomy Day.

Is that coming up or did they have this?

That happened.

OK, so this was what I was reading.

This makes a lot more sense.

I was reading something about this and them saying that you're going to be able to drive.

It sounded a bit like Blue Cruise and whatever the other thing was.

It was like I think it's probably a step beyond that, ultimately, that their goal is.

But yeah, but it wasn't like Tesla for driving where Tesla is just like,

yeah, screw it, you drive anywhere, hands free.

That this is going to be on that.

Yeah, yeah, this is like select roads in certain areas, probably under certain conditions.

Yeah, well, I mean, there's a lot to unpack here and I don't think OK.

So so basically, so before the last couple of years, you know, a lot of people are like,

oh, Rivians are cool, but they're really lagging on, you know, their autonomous technologies.

They're way behind Tesla.

They're, you know, they're even behind like GM and Ford and stuff.

But I guess all that time they were working behind the scenes really kind of.

Building out their capabilities and their technology stack.

So about a week ago, they finally had a big presentation on this.

And they're like, now we're in it to win it.

We're like a lot of other companies want to do, but they're actually doing it.

They're going to be making their own chips.

Now, now in terms of making, they're going to be actually physically made by TSMC,

air quotes, 90 percent of the rest of the world.

Yeah.

But in terms of the engineering, you know, all that, they did it in-house.

So their ultimate goal is now when they're going to achieve the Sunos is with

with level four, which is considered eyes off, like no, no intervention,

autonomous capability, but still a steering wheel.

We would still have steering wheel and pedals because level five is no,

level five is no is death, a death box.

Level four gives you the ability not to die.

Level five, level four still retains controls.

So student throttle brakes.

Yeah.

Level five is like no, no way to intervene.

So you're completely the mercy of how of the robot overlords.

Yes, robot overlords.

Yeah.

So, so GM, I guess, said they're planning on doing an eyes off system in 2028.

But I think that's conditional.

I think that's highway only.

Rivian saying they want to do a point to point eyes off system.

So that didn't give a date for that.

Not specifically.

They said the hardware will show up in the R2.

When that comes out, and I think next year.

And they're going to offer some of this technology on the second gen R1s,

which had a pretty major refresh, what, about a year ago.

And they completely changed the electronics architecture to support this.

I think the big thing that stood out for me is the price is significantly less

than Tesla currently charges for FSD.

So Tesla gives you two options.

They, it's either $8,000 one time purchase, lifetime purchase, or basically

a hundred bucks a month on a subscription basis.

So Rivian announced 2,500 one time purchase or 50 bucks a month for a subscription.

So that's significantly less than Tesla.

And it sounds, I mean, what they presented says they're going to be right there

with them in terms of capability, if not, if not better.

So, you know.

But it's not available right now.

But it will take available yet, but we'll take your money with the promise.

I'll tell me, tell me if you've heard this before, we will sell you the product,

but it's not available yet, but eventually it'll come out.

And the price is only going to go up from here.

So you should buy in now because it'll be available soon and it'll be available

on anything with these chips that we are now introducing.

This is going to be Ford compatible for forever.

Don't worry about this.

Just give us this money now.

Have you heard this before?

Is this even a million?

Anybody am I taking crazy pills here?

You're a little bit cynical about this.

I'm just saying, I had to guess.

They might have picked up the script from somebody else's performance

that they gave in what, 2018 or 16 or whatever it was when Elon Musk

made his original claims.

I don't know.

I want to give them the benefit of the doubt.

But yeah, I mean, these are a lot of big promises for this.

And, you know, they got a lot of promises to fulfill with this.

They also have the advantage of they've seen Tesla.

They've seen Ford, they've seen GM.

They know what's possible.

They know what you need to do with a chip in order to process this amount of data.

They are not the first mover in this and Tesla was.

So chances of the first person knocking something like this out of the park

on their first go was it was never going to happen.

And here, Rivian's got that advantage of already knowing they already reverse

engineered everything that's on the market.

Undoubtedly, they already know what they need to know.

Yeah, the other the other thing that I'd say probably the biggest difference

in terms of hardware with Tesla is this is going to have LiDAR as part of it.

I think starting on the R2 forward, I don't know if the current R1s have LiDAR or not.

But the R2 and future models will integrate LiDAR as part of this.

So whereas Elon Musk's family is like very anti LiDAR for whatever reason.

But and the big the big objection to that traditionally has been cost because I mean,

I don't know if you've seen them in your like like the Waymo's little really gig LiDAR.

So those things a few years ago were like 10,000 a piece.

So they're like really expensive.

And now they've got them down to like, you know, like, like I'd say almost like

a wallet sized module. That's a couple hundred bucks.

So I think in the presentation, somebody asked a scratch about like, well,

isn't LiDAR expensive in this and that? And he says it used to be.

He said now it's basically a couple hundred bucks per vehicle.

So he's like, it's gone down to the point where it's almost negligible when we're the other.

And he said, we get more value out of having that capability than not having it.

So anyway, so yeah, cool. So when I get my R3, you know,

be able to pick an app or do in scroll or whatever.

So that'd be pretty sweet. Yeah, you let me know how that works out.

We'll see because you got the FSD on your Model 3 and was like the capability.

Well, you upgrade, you paid the whatever it was for the hardware upgrade. You got the trial

and you went, eh, I'm good. And you didn't renew it.

I mean, it's cool. And you know, maybe I might renew it if I take a road trip, but

it's not like, oh, wow, this is so amazing. I can't live without this.

And I've done a cross country trip with BlueCruise on an F150.

And I enjoy driving. So that's hands off, eyes on.

Yes. And it was very helpful in, I was going through this like canyone area on a freeway

in Colorado. And the sun was setting and the reflection on the freeway was so that you couldn't

really see the lines as clearly. And when I turned it on, it was very, very helpful.

It was super nice after I've been driving for hours and hours and hours to know that this thing,

you know, you got your hands on the wheel, you're still steering with it, but this thing's got

you. And it was very useful in those situations. So I totally agree. If you do a cross country trip

or, you know, a full day's drive somewhere, it might be worth the 100 bucks, especially if you've

got some kind of inclement weather like was the case there in the drive is like, wow, whatever.

But at night, fog, mist, rain, I think they can be very useful tools.

And the majority of drivers suck. So they all need it. I'm fine without it. Just have you know.

Yeah. So, you know, you know, you kind of laughed at me when I got installed and you're like, oh,

just wait a couple months are going to say, oh, yeah, we're going to have FSD for everything

except hardware three, you know, you're right. Now there's some rumor that they're going to offer

like limited forward going support for hardware three, or the other rumor I heard is they're

going to replace hardware three computers with hardware four. Who knows? I'm not paying for any,

I'm not paying for another upgrade. I'm just done. I'm just going on record here.

You're just sitting here. I paid my grand. I'm kind of like, you know, whatever capabilities it has,

unless they're going to pay for it, that's it. Yeah, they've already gotten enough of my money.

So anyway, so yeah, cost a bunch of money is this Polo.

Yeah, which which actually ironically may have a little bit of a Rivian tie in, but we'll get to

that. So this is Volkswagen low cost ID dot Polo, which aren't they dropping the ID?

Then they decide like the ID buzz is just the buzz now.

I don't know who knows that changes that changes like every quarter what their strategy is.

So they actually advertising this as ID after saying that I think they're calling the ID Polo.

They didn't get the memo or am I wrong? I completely wrong. I thought they dropped the

ID. I thought that was I thought it was just maybe that was with the ID, but I don't know.

Leave a mess. Leave a comment below if you're watching on YouTube and a link.

And if you work for Volkswagen, please clarify. Yes.

So this is the Polo, which is smaller than the Golf. Yes. Do you remember the ID to all concept?

I will Google this to see if it's the one that I was thinking of.

We discussed it on episode 111. I actually looked it up. That was in 2023.

ID to all concepts. Yeah. If you look at the specs for that and compare it to this,

that's basically what it is. So that basically previewed the Polo, which a lot of people expected.

So in terms of length, width, wheelbase, but we have a little, little more detail.

They're going to offer it in four power outputs, interestingly.

So base model, 114 horse, which, you know, whatever, I guess for getting around in cities,

it's fine. Next step up is 133 and 208. And they say they are going to plan a GTI version with

223 horse, which that much power and that big of car, that sounds pretty fun actually.

I'd want more, but sure. And a Polo, I think 223 horse is pretty good for that.

Yeah, probably. Sure. Why not? I'd have to drive it. I don't know. Hard to please.

I've said many times, it's easy to make EVs go fast and that you shouldn't really concentrate on

them going fast. You should concentrate on the charging curve and all of the things that go with

making it a vehicle. Yeah, rain, like things that make an EV useful. An outright acceleration

isn't part of the usability portion. But if you're going to have four different sets of horsepower

and four setups on this thing, why not have the last one as 500 horsepower? Why not?

I think maybe they're choosing that for the ID Golf R.

Yeah, I mean, this could be a death trap. This will probably come at some point.

All right, so they're 37 and 52 kilowatt hour battery options. It sounds very much like a

37 kilowatt hour battery and 114 horsepower is a Europe only model. Is all of these Europe only?

Or they said anything about America? I guess for the Polo, no. My guess would be this is

not coming to the US. Well, that sucks. Yeah, we probably will get, if they ever do a golf ID

Golf or whatever, we'll probably get a version of that. And that could be like four or 500 horse.

Hopefully it's better than the last electric Golf that they sent our way.

The E-Golf, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was okay, but I'd kind of almost put that in the same categories

like the leaf kind of. I found some when I was shopping for used cars. I found one and it had

50 mile range or something like that. Oh yeah. And they wanted like 8,000 bucks for it. You're like,

really? Really? Yeah. So what was that? 280 mile WLTP range. So pretty good, I guess.

That'd be like 240, 250 EPA probably. Yeah, it's a good start. Bring something like this to make

bigger, more horsepower, bring it to America. Well, yeah, like I said, when they haven't

officially announced this, when there's a golf version, I'm pretty sure that'll come. But Polo,

I think it's a little small for our market. Our being equal, drive type being equal,

electric Golf, Rivian R3.

I still have a little chip on my shoulder against Volkswagen.

You had such a good and bad experience with your GTI. It was like the best time of your life and

the worst time of your life. Yeah. I mean, it was a blast to drive. It was so fun to drive,

but that thing was such a steaming pile in terms of quality. Anyway, I have another friend who

has got a Mark 7 GTI and he said it's been great and you had very few quality issues. So I mean,

maybe they've resolved that, but I still think I'd lean toward the R3.

But that's just me. If they even, you know, again, I don't think Rivian's maybe quite as in

dire shape as some other EV companies like Aptera or you could even say Lucid. But

so consensus is, you know, Rivian's going to make it over the hump and they're in it for the long

haul. My feelings are about 70-30. 70% they're going to make it 30. So I'm still hopeful for the R3.

But yeah. They're following Tesla's playbook, as I just said, with this self-driving thing.

So as soon as they Rivian releases and they've already released or they backed an electric

bicycle thing, they've already done like little products like that. As soon as you can get,

they start talking about a Rivian AI robot, humanoid robot. They're not making it.

They're following too many of the Tesla things at that point and they're just going after investor

money. So that's the telltale sign. That is the harbinger of doom. Well, they did use the AI,

the term AI a lot in the presentation. So I mean, depending on what you think about that,

that's got up in the hype cycle. AI's a new Web 3.

All right. So this is, I guess this is in kind of a roundabout way,

kind of similar to the Ford story, is that they were going to go Gung Ho on EV and then they kind

of got Porsche now. Porsche, yeah. Yeah, okay. And they're like, well, maybe not. So I'd say

for the past couple of years, I remember there's been the 718, which collectively is the Boxer and

Cayman. The next generation models, we're going to go full EV. And I guess they've got a little

pushback on that. And their customer feedback has been, we still want an ICE version. But the

thing is, they've already plowed so much R&D and development into it. They're kind of committed.

So they're like, okay, how can we turn this like EV native platform and kind of like reverse

engineer it to accept an engine? So the story out of AutoCar kind of details kind of some of the

insider story they've gotten. It sounds like a massive pain in the, you know what, to try to

put an engine back in it, but they're trying evidently. So I am going to make some broad

statements about the Boxer and Cayman. It's basically the same chassis the whole time. So

why not just use the 718 gas chassis for the next generation, update the suspension in some

minimalistic way that they've been doing for the last like three generations of the car

and then call it is a new Boxer. And then you have the platform that's EV that you've already

got the development money into that you can't really afford to throw away at this point. And you

release that and then you release the next generation 718 on the existing 718 chassis

platform with just some updates here and there. So what you're saying is just kind of

change the headlights and tail lights on the current model. Say it's the new Boxer.

That's what they've done for the last three generations. Isn't it? Leave a comment below

in the YouTube thing if I'm completely wrong about that. But if you go and you buy like, what is it?

One of the, I mean, basically any suspension, the X73, something like that, the factory upgrades,

something or other shocks, they fit like three generations. They fit the 718 and the two

generations prior. It's the same stuff, folks. It's the same car. Well, I would agree with you

other than the fact, I guess there are some regulatory reasons why they're, they're going

to have to phase out the current chassis. I can't remember if it's like, is it made of lead?

No, it's like some sort of like electronics like ADAS compliance issue or emissions or something

where they're like, no, we can't, we can't really keep using the old chassis. We have to move on to

this new platform, which was basically built from the ground up for an EV. Now they're like, well,

okay, now we're going to have to redo all this stuff. So basically TLDR, I'm going to unpack

this a little bit. So the EV version of the new Boxer was going to have like a big, you know,

platform battery pack. So they have to take that out, but it was a structural member of the chassis.

So now they're like, they had to re-engineer this like big, like brace structure to kind of put

the rigidity back in the chassis. And then let's see some other stuff. Redesign rear bulkhead and

subframe to support the engine transmission, which we're not there in the EV.

Yeah, it was just like a front and a rear end just sitting on the floor before if you take the

battery out. And also they need to have provision for fuel tank, fuel lines and exhaust system.

So basically they re-engineered the rear subframe, they're going to have to re-engineer the rear

subframe to accommodate all this. I imagine the way a vehicle crashes is completely different

as to whether or not you've got a battery pack or you've got a gas tank, the way you crumple a car

would be potentially completely different. So in terms of in-cap testing, crash testing, they're

going to have to, I mean, thankfully now they have like computer modeling. So they can throw all this

data into a simulation and see how it'll crumple. But I mean, they're still going to have to do real

world crash testing. Yeah, they've still got to design it. I mean, this is all this very kind

of speculative kind of insider rumors and stuff, but this sounds like a total nightmare.

It seems like everybody jumped, and this is going to sound weird on an EV podcast, but it seems like

all these companies jumped on the EV bandwagon and went all in on EVs. Like they had a boss that was

like, oh, no, this is the thing that we're going to do. We're going to chase Tesla, and we're going

to go all EV, and that's definitely the way we're going to go. And now all of them are backpedaling.

All of them are having to re-engineer everything that they've had. It just sounds like...

Except Toyota. You know, and like I said, we've made fun of Toyota plenty on this podcast, but

I think maybe they had it ride all along. Like, you know what? We're not going to drink the Kool-Aid.

We're not going to give into the hype cycle. Slow and steady. We're just going to slow and

steady. We're going to keep doing the hybrid thing. Kind of slow roll into EVs with the

BZ, which with the refresh is actually a decent car. For a first-gen one, I was like,

but... I don't know if this is just engineering by press release or if they're really doing this,

but supposedly they're going to be potentially outside of China, one of the first to market

with a solid-state battery, potentially. So, I don't know. Tortoise and the hare, I mean.

I may have to eat my words, so. No, I mean, Toyota's got enough money that they can

get some things wrong. Maybe these other companies don't have enough money

that they've got to commit, but now they're backpedaling and it's costing the money and I don't

know. I do think the Cayman and the Boxster would be pretty exciting as EVs, but I don't know. They're

pretty exciting as gas vehicles as well. Well, I mean, again, it depends on what you value. I

mean, it's an equivalent ICE model in terms of power output, all that, but if you just love

the sound of the flat six, shifting gears, all that, even though, I don't know if you remember

if we discussed this. So, the Porsche engineers drove the Ionic 5N and I guess they were really

impressed by the fake shifts and fake noise feature on that. So, I guess they're going to

put that in future EV models, but so. Is that something to look forward to? I don't know anymore.

I honestly don't know if that's something to look forward to. Some of them sound really,

every time they do two houses down from me that has a e-tron GT, when it drives by, I'm like, wow,

that sounds really good. That rumble that it has is like bass. So, I really like the noises that

that makes. I haven't driven one of the ones with the gear shifty noises. I still want someone to

make one that makes Jetson car noises. I'm sure it's coming. I'm sure it's coming.

Okay, everything we talked about. Links in the show notes. Where are the show notes? Well,

if you're watching YouTube, just scroll down. They're there. Well, and then you'll have to

click like show more or something. Yeah, whatever. You can figure that out. You've been around long

enough. This isn't your first time here. The, what else do I talk about? Like and subscribe?

I guess. Is that a thing anymore? Like and subscribe?

Trying to look for my cheat sheet. Are we still offering a parallel or are we?

We do. It's sort of with the walkcar.com slash advertise. I have not been promoting it at all.

And you can go there and you can buy some stuff. Ed's wearing a hat. I've got an Atari shirt on

today, but I do have walkcar shirts. I wish I was not wearing it. Got a hoodie and a t-shirt.

My hoodie's nice. I started to wear it again now that it's wintertime in Southern California.

And you know, it only got up to 73 degrees today. Oh my gosh. I don't know what I thought about going

surfing. And then I was like, you know, maybe I'll wait until the week of Christmas to see

if it warms up before I go surfing again. We're on all the social media.

Oh, you're going there. Jumping the gun here. Yeah. Well, I was gonna say social media sales.

Don't like and subscribe us. Just share us. I mean, you can like and subscribe. You can do

whatever you want. We're off. Is that what you're saying? Yes. Do I have to come to work next week?

No. Sweet. But we will be dropping a new episode actually New Year's Day. New Year's Day. Oh my

God, you're going to make me work New Year's Day. Well, we won't be working. I mean, we'll be working,

but we've already done the work. Yes. Yeah. But in the meantime,

enjoy, enjoy time with your friends and family next week.

Christmas, Festivus, or your grievances, whatever. That's going to be our New Year's

Show. That should be our New Year's Show. I don't know. Erring our grievances. I'll find out when

I show up and you tell me what we're talking about. I'll talk to you later. All right.

251: A Defeated Sigh

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