300mph top speeds. 6min 30 at the Nürburgring. Are cars too fast? #277

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Welcome back to the intercooler podcast powered by car finance specialist JBR Capital.

This is episode 277 with Dan Proser and Andrew Frankel.

I wanted to talk to you, Andrew, about performance testing and performance record

breaking because it's arguably in a healthier, better state than it ever has been, or it's

getting completely out of hand. Nurburgring times, nought to 400 kilometers per hour to nought

battles, car magazine figuring top speeds, 300 mile an hour top speeds. It's all

absolutely potty. Now, what was it? Was it the Daily Mail that had a sort of panic, a moral panic

about the Lotus Carlton all those years ago? We're doing 177 miles an hour. Four door family

saloon. I don't want this to be like that. I don't know because I'm afraid I'm not a Daily Mail

reader. I'm sure it was the Daily Mail. It's certainly one of the tabloids. One of the

more easily outraged of the tabloids. I don't want this to be like that because a lot of this stuff

I think is deeply cool and it does sort of further human achievement. It's really, really

impressive what a lot of these car companies are able to do. Equally, there were quite a few

companies out there pursuing 300 mile per hour top speeds. We know that the Bugatti

the Chiron Super Sport 300 plus has already done 300 plus, 304. Do you remember a couple of years ago,

Andy Wallace, who was the driver, came on and told us all about it? Yes, indeed.

I mean, he's the bloke who did 240 in McLaren F1 in 1998 and we all thought,

blimey, no cars ever going to go faster than that. Now that in three years, I presume at

some stage, one will do 400. You have to imagine because in the late 1990s, it would

have been impossible to imagine 300 miles an hour, but here we are. I would have said in the late 1990s

that a car would never do 300, a road car on road tires would ever do 300 miles an hour.

And, you know, that just shows how wrong you can be. So, I mean, okay, I mean 400 miles an hour

sounds, I mean, preposterous, sci-fi, ridiculous, potty, silly, but someone's going to do it.

Probably. Well, unless, I mean, because actually it's getting easier, isn't it? With, you know,

because you can, you know, as long as you've got a big enough battery and a powerful enough motor,

you can just, you know, with electric, you know, you can just dial up the number you want

and go and do it. I think the problem people are going to start running into is geography.

Yeah, where? Where do you do it? But yeah, but like I said, you know, there are plenty of places

you can go. There are plenty of deserts you can go and blast across. Might struggle to do

on road legal tires, but you know, there'll be production EVs. I did once, years ago,

so Ola Kalenius, who is now the big, big boss of Mercedes-Benz, at the time, he was running AMG

and he's a proper car guy. And we were on a launch together. And this was at the time of the electric

SLS, Mercedes electric SLS. And I said to him, wouldn't it be really cool if we took,

because it was sold, it was a production car, I mean, tiny, tiny numbers, wouldn't it be cool

if we, by which I meant I, took an electric SLS to Bonneville and broke a stack of electric

car records, which it would have done. And he went, oh, that's quite interesting.

Let me go and I was about to do Swedish accent. I'm not going to do Swedish accent. Let me go

and talk to the engineers. And then I think he got another job. And he went off to somewhere

else. And so it never happened. That's a shame. I don't love doing that. That would have

been super cool. In those few minutes, I'd be very pro EV. Yeah, of course. Anyway, sorry.

So I thought it might be quite fun just to look at the sort of state of the nation,

you know, across these different disciplines, top speed, not to nought,

Nurburgring lap times, and just think about how these things have progressed over the years

and where they might go. And also whether or not on balance, we think it's a good thing.

And we will be acknowledging the fact that you and I as car journalists have

done as much as anyone to encourage all this stuff. And we'll talk about magazine

performance figuring, because it's it's quite fun. But I do have to acknowledge that

the car magazines have been complicit in this all the way. We have. And have we been complicit

to such an extent that I mean, my worry with this stuff is that it's all terribly funny. And

we will go koo-wop with another amazing until something terrible happens.

That's the sort of unspoken thing, isn't it? So maybe we could start with

Nurburgring lap times because it's because that's where something terrible is likely to happen.

Most likely to happen. Yeah. And it's I mean, it's it's potty how fast some of these cars

are going now. So the the record for a road legal car is now sub six minutes 30.

629 one by Mercedes AMG one. Yeah. Okay, to put that in perspective.

The last time a proper full on top level sports cars in Le Mans car race was held on that track

was 1983 1000 case 1983. And the fastest lap of that race was recorded by Stefan Beloff

in a Porsche 956. So a prototype slicks and wings full ground effect from the ground up

designed racing car did a 625. And now there's something with treaded tires on a number plate

which had done a 629. And all the talk is that when Porsche does the next GT2 RS,

which I think we're pretty certain it's going to do, that it's going to want to go faster

than that because it's going to want the record back. But well, yeah.

I can remember there's a lovely chap called Lars Kern, you will know. And they do have

two or three people who go and do these laps for them.

Lars Kern is probably the one who has done most but your Bergmeister particularly is another one

of these brilliant lunatics. Yeah, he's just take his brain out for a lap and go.

But I can remember sitting down with Lars and interviewing him. And he's not one of these guys

who's won the more little times or anything like that. He is a Nurburgring specialist. Yeah.

He's the guy that you turn to for that's particular purpose. And saying to him,

so Lars, how much are you leaving sort of on the table? How much room for error? How much

wriggle room are you going? I mean, how hard are you really trying because presumably because

you're in a road car and it's in road specification. And I know they obviously

optimize these things. They fit all the stuff from the options list that you can.

And I'm sure they prepare the tyres to the best possible condition in which those tyres can be

prepared while still being road legal and so on and so forth. But let's say to you,

you know, presumably you do just leave something in the bank just in case,

you know, something on the wall might happen. I don't know, not at all.

So they're qualifying laps, aren't they? It's absolutely. It might even be more

than a qualifying lap. I mean, he has to really, really psych himself up. And when it's done,

he is done too. It's absolutely balls to the wall. Oh my God. Absolutely. He gives it everything.

Yeah. Yeah. An 11 tenths effort. Yeah. Blimey. It is quite something. And so,

yeah, the record is a 629. The Mercedes-AMG won. And that clearly is a very low volume,

quite extreme road car. But as far as I can tell, the second fastest is the previous GT2 RS

with a mantai kit. And I think this was Lars Kern did a 643. That's back in 2021.

And I think that's almost more impressive because it's a very trick 9-11, but underneath,

that's just a 9-11. It's not a sort of purpose built hypercar weapon, like a...

With the Formula One car engine. Yeah.

Yeah. No, I do absolutely know what you're saying. But that was 2021. So,

we've had four years of tire tech on from there. You think how much more downforce

the new car is going to have? You think with that hybrid engine. I mean, we were talking

last week, weren't we, about the new 9-11 Turbo and speculating that it might have

what, 700 plus horsepower. Now, if you think back to the previous GT2 RS,

that was when a 9-11 Turbo SL, I think 550 horsepower and the GT2 RS had 693. So,

basically it was a 140 horsepower gain. Now, let us say the 9-11 Turbo only has 700 horsepower only.

You know, that's putting a GT2 RS, if the gain is no more than it was last time,

at about 840 horsepower. So, it's 800 plus, isn't it?

800 plus. I would have thought. Yeah.

Yeah. It will be over 800 horsepower plus with the deployment that they get with the hybrid,

so there will be no lag of any kind. I mean, it is going to be a missile.

It's actually frightening the proposition, isn't it? That's the thing, isn't it?

To go, call it a second a mile faster than the already very fast GT2 RS.

Okay. So, in terms of, let's look at the danger thing head on, because I think what you and

I are both sitting here sort of slightly dancing around the edge of is,

is there a good chance that somebody could get badly hurt doing one of these things?

Yeah. And on the one hand, you think of the fact that these are road cars, we know that the

Nerva Grink is a place where you don't tend to have small accidents. And we know that the

drivers are pushing it absolutely to the limit and beyond. And you're thinking, I mean,

I'm always getting, already getting a bit sort of when I think about the drivers going out and

doing these things. But then again, then you think of the N24 GT3 cars, which are still road

car based. And I know their cages are probably rather more comprehensive than you get in the

road cars. But we don't worry about drivers going off and doing that in the rain and the fog

and the night and the everything else. And with the traffic. With the traffic.

And, you know, and they have huge accidents. But actually, I'm very pleased to say, and I know

that there have been exceptions to this. And I know there'll be some awful accidents there.

But by and large, even when there are quite big accidents there, drivers tend to step out.

So maybe we're getting on Nick as in a twist about nothing. But even so, these are just road

cars. And yeah, I mean, it's I don't even want to be sort of sounding like I'm tempting

Providence. But you know, you do wonder if something awful did happen, whether it would

then all stop. And we and then with a bit of time there after we wouldn't then look back at it and

think, what was that? And why were we actually digging up something so much, which is of so

little real world, zero real world relevance, when ultimately, you know, we kind of all

suspected where that particular road might lead. I don't know.

A couple of the others then. So very, very recently, a Chevrolet Corvette ZR1X did a six

minute 49. That's a hybrid version of the C8 Corvette with the twin turbo V8 from the ZR1

with an upgraded version of the electric motor and all wheel drive system from the e-ray

with 1250 BHP. It's just potty, isn't it? That's now the fastest American car faster than the

Mustang. Oh, I love it where they start qualifying it. Fastest American car.

As if that makes any difference. Painted red built on a Tuesday by a man wearing a silly hat.

Do you remember in 2013, when the 918 Spyder, the Porsche 918 Spyder did a 657.

Yeah. And we all go, oh my God, sub seven. Yeah. And now 911 is doing it.

Can we, can we just try to put into perspective? I'm not really sure how we're going to do this,

but just try to explain just how fast even a seven minute lap is.

If you gave me, so that GT2 RS did what, a 643. Yeah. Okay. So if you gave me that GT2 RS

an empty, dry, sunny Nürburgring and all the brave pills I could swallow,

and let's say you gave me a day to re familiarize myself with the circuit because

it's been a while since I've been around there faster than anything. What do I think I could do?

If I got within 30 seconds of that, I'd be really happy. Yeah. 30 seconds. I'd be delighted.

I'll be absolutely delighted. Because there's driving, there's driving, and I know this from

racing there. I know this from having shared a car there with Klaus Ludwig. So I do know what

I'm talking about. There's driving really fast around the Nürburgring. And then there is

doing it properly. And because it's such a long track, if you're doing it properly, you're going a

hell of a lot faster. Everywhere. And you're using, and I remember this from watching Klaus's

onboard, one of the reasons I realized it's so much slower than me, he was actually using bits

of track I didn't know existed. Yeah. Just all over the curbs. Just everywhere. And you know

exactly how, what kind of liberties to take to what extent exactly where I would be really,

really happy. I'm not sure, I would get them in the half a minute of them. And I would

also absolutely petrify myself in the process. I think if you've just gotten a, if you've gotten a

normal, a normal, if an average, okay, here's a question. You can answer this because I don't

know the answer any better than you do. Let us say that you are a, what I would call a normal driver.

So you're an experienced, enthusiastic, sensible person. And you've got a new GT3,

and maybe it's your third or fourth GT3, and you've had lots and lots of track days,

maybe you've done a little bit of racing at a sort of, you know, amateur club level,

you're a kind of normal, well resourced enthusiast. And you know the derby ring quite well,

and you go there with your GT3 and you leave it on your cup twos, you don't put cup two

oils on it because you need to be able to get home, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,

and you go out and you do without killing yourself, you go out and do a lap time.

Well, it's not going to begin, begin to begin with a seven, is it?

You think it's eight plus?

Yeah, absolutely. You're not going to, a normal driver isn't going to go to the Nurburgring

and do a sub eight. No.

Straight out of the box.

No, no, you're not. Particularly at that track, that's the thing, isn't it?

It's such a specific track.

I think if you did an 830 you'd come away thinking that was a pretty entertaining lap.

Yeah. Yeah.

And they're like going two minutes quicker than that.

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James Walker, Mr. JWW, he's got a video series at the moment trying to do a sub seven.

He's brave isn't he?

It's a huge thing to take on.

And the other thing about James is, you know, we know James quite well

and he's been very helpful to us in the past.

You know, he's a good driver. He's a really good driver and he's raced plenty

and he's raced some quite serious stuff.

So he's not just a well resourced bloke with a vast car at all.

He's trying to do it in a GT3RS and he's been very, very open about this.

He had a big shunt, not a decent size shunt.

Big shunt, yeah.

A few months ago.

And so it's no game is this?

And he's trying to do a sub seven?

Yeah, yeah.

Bloody hell.

Which is what, you know, you know, Porsche first did that in 2013.

So a dozen years ago.

With a hypercar.

But yeah.

So it gives you an idea of just how hard these,

how fast they're going and how hard they're being pushed by

and the skill level of the people who are doing it.

Yeah.

And the thing is, it's not just hypercars and supercars that are,

you know, going off in pursuit of lap records around that place.

There are EVs doing it, estate cars, SUVs, hatchbacks.

You know, I couldn't, okay.

The hatch, for some reason, the hatchback one does amuse me.

Really?

Yeah.

For the front drive, particularly, you know, if there was a,

if there, you know, because I guess we just think of what's a car

and a picture of a front drive transverse engine,

five door thing parked in a super car park.

It tends to what appear in my head, you know, it's a golf.

And the idea of one of those going, I mean, the idea of one of those things that,

you know, has been so tuned up the Wazoo by its creator

that it's going around quicker than, you know, acknowledged sports cars.

I find there's a certain sort of comic interest in that.

But SUVs?

Yeah.

It just seems pointless, isn't it?

I couldn't care less.

There was a spell, I don't know, 10 years ago or something,

when the likes of VW and Honda and Seat and Renault

were knocking lumps off each other.

Yeah.

Trying to get the front wheel drive production car record.

Yeah.

And they were going so fast.

And all those nutty two seat.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

Those things.

Yeah.

They were going really fast.

Yeah.

Sub 8, 750, that sort of thing.

I mean, it's great.

I mean, if you've been there and you've been around it

and you've had a surreptitious flick of the stock watch,

you will know how crazy the idea of a sub 7,

of a sub 8 minute lap in a hatchback is.

It's just bonkers.

I mean, when you think, I mean, I can remember,

I was there the day that Lexus sent the front engine record.

And they got one of their nutty engineers

in a Nurburgring pack, LFA, and did a 714.

And we were all just thinking, yeah.

That's nuts.

That's insane.

Yeah.

Actually, I think I spoke about this quite recently.

So I won't bang on, but the Golf GTI Club Sport S,

I think it was in 2015 around then.

Yeah.

They launched it at the Nurburgring

because it had just broken the record.

And the drive activity was to chase

Benny Leuchter around the ring.

Well, yeah.

It was fantastic.

It was great fun.

And they had the other one.

They had the non-S there as well,

which we could drive on the road,

but we could drive the S on the track.

Yeah.

And so I made sure that I got in the group with,

because we did do this Ducks and Drakes thing,

where you follow the instructor or the quick guy up front.

And his job is to make sure that you're going quickly,

but not so quickly, that the slowest car gets

dropped off the back, or that the chasing cars

gap too much because someone can't keep up.

And so when you're doing these activities,

you always make sure that you try and get in the group

with the quick guys.

Quick group, yeah.

If you're not.

Because you can't overtake.

So if you're behind the slow guy, it's basically

you're stuck.

Your lap is ruined.

Yeah.

And I think it's a one lap and done thing.

So it's really important.

Yeah.

And I've been doing that.

I did that once.

I can remember I was, I think somebody

was in a car with Jethro.

I won't tell you who it was.

But we were on doing the Ducks and Drakes

in 911 Turbo S's at Bilsterberg, I think.

And there was a bloat there who couldn't keep up

on the slowing down lap.

Yeah.

And I'm just thinking, come on.

And then he's going to go and write review.

And it sounds terribly arrogant.

And we're taking the piss out of people

who can't drive cars as fast as us.

It's not actually the point.

The point is that that person would then go and tell

their readers how that car behaves on the limit

on a racetrack when they're in absolutely no position

to do so.

Yeah.

This is why you work really hard

to get in the group with the quick guys.

And I made sure that I was right behind Steve Sutcliffe.

He definitely qualifies.

Which is the place to be.

And Benny, so he did something like a 7 minute 50

as the new record.

He reckon we're 30 seconds off.

Ah, OK.

That seems well.

There you go.

Yeah.

And it felt bloody quick.

Yeah.

I bet you didn't feel that you were dawdling.

No.

And whenever I drive quickly around that place,

and you come around that final corner,

the right hander onto the long straight,

I'm so relieved.

I'm always just tense driving around that place.

It's just scary.

One of the things I love about this podcast is

you and I sort of step into this little studio

and suddenly we become terribly honest about things

and our inner fears and all the stuff

that we probably don't talk about too much

when we write stories.

But you're absolutely right.

I know that feeling so well.

You get basically, it happens before you're

out the corner because you turn into it.

And if you turn into it at the right point

and you get the car into the corner,

you know you're coming out all right.

Yeah.

And you're like, oh, thank God for that.

I think that's why, maybe I just haven't done enough laps,

but I think that's why I will never be

very, very quick around there

because I'm just too tense.

No, I've never been, I mean I've raced there.

In fact, I used to, I raced a Clio there

sharing it with my sadly long departed,

well not that long departed,

Merrick Cox, who some of you may have heard of me,

he was a nutty bloke.

And we had, sometimes we shared a car,

sometimes he was in one Clio and I was in another

and we did a couple of seasons and

our times were always identical,

apart from at the Nurburgring.

Well, I couldn't get anywhere near him.

And we concluded that this was because

I had an imagination and Merrick didn't.

Yeah.

And if you don't have an imagination,

it's so liberating

because you're not thinking about what's going to happen.

If you could just switch off that component,

you're going faster.

That's what I can't do.

No, me neither.

Just be stupid and brave.

It's why, when I'm doing very long races,

like 24 hour races,

wherever I am, faster or slower than my team mates

during the daylight,

I'm always relatively slower at night

than I am during the day.

And it's not because I can't see.

It's because I'm just getting scared of the car.

No, I'm the same.

I'm the same.

Not to 400 to naught,

not to 400 kph to naught,

has become seemingly an important new hypercal metric.

Yeah, I mean, I do it most days.

I sort of wake up, have my cornflakes,

head out, do a quick naught to 100,

and go about my business.

And if your car will not do it under 30 seconds,

it's just not good enough, is it?

I can't imagine why you'd ever have one.

So, yeah, this is where you go.

Let's look at this.

So that's naught to 250 miles an hour.

249, yeah.

And then back to rest.

Okay, is that...

Okay, it has no relevance

because we, none of us,

can afford a Rimac Navarra RR

and personally, if I could,

I wouldn't buy one because, you know,

electric hypercars don't particularly interest me.

However impressive the car is,

which I'm sure I wish I'm no doubt at all that it is.

But there's clearly no actual relevance to the figure.

And yet somehow, when you look at it,

you still think, oh my goodness, that's nuts.

It is interesting still, isn't it?

Why is it interesting?

Well, it is amazing that there are

man-made objects that can go from

road legal man-made objects that you can buy

that will go from lots of places.

There is something in us, isn't there,

that is always...

And it's, frankly, it's the reason

that the human race has developed.

Like it doesn't sound too profound.

Is there something within us

that always wants to do stuff

or learn about stuff that hasn't been done before?

Yeah, it's human nature really, isn't there?

And this is why...

We'll come to this a little bit later,

but this is why I'm sort of torn

on these things.

We'll come to that.

But this 0-400 to 0...

So the Rimaque Navarre did hold the record

until, I think it was earlier this month,

the Koenigsegg Jesko Absolute

stole the record back with a 25.21 second run.

Okay, so that's 0-249 to 0 again in 25 seconds.

Yeah.

Okay, the only 0-200, not 249,

200 figure that's in my head,

because I was in the car when it did it,

was the McLaren F1.

Yeah.

28 dead.

To 200.

So not to 0-249,

and certainly not back to a standstill again.

And the McLaren F1,

believe me, ladies and gentlemen,

ain't a slow car driver,

even today,

and you'll go, oh my God, that's fast.

Yeah.

And this thing is getting to 0-249,

and I suspect it's probably taking as long

to get from 0-200 to 0-249 as it's taking

to get from 0-200.

Yeah.

And then back to rest in three seconds less

than it took me to get 0-200.

It's just gone potty, hasn't it?

It's gone potty.

Mate Rimmack posted a video saying,

congratulations, Christian Koenigsegg,

we will get this record back.

And actually one of the surprising things is,

when the Navara R,

this almost 2,000 horsepower electric hypercar,

that record,

a lot of us would have thought,

well, that's it now for combustion power.

It's never going to come back.

And yet Koenigsegg has come back with a,

and this car,

it's only got a twin-turbo V8 in it,

with a load of power,

but it's only a twin-turbo 5-liter V8.

Yes.

You know?

And somehow,

and it's a rear-wheel drive.

And somehow it's...

Yes, it is, isn't it?

And somehow it's quicker than the...

So that is impressive.

It is impressive.

How much power does it have?

I think it's like 1,200, 1,300 or something like that.

Yeah.

So somehow that thing is,

it's monstrous.

I kind of wish I thought more about how this conversation,

because I would have then had the figures in my head,

which I don't.

Do you know who I mean by Brittany Force?

No.

So Brittany Force is the...

She is the fastest dragster racer in the world.

Yeah.

Okay, she comes from,

I think a long line of dragster racers.

And she has just done something absolutely ridiculous.

I think she did,

because they don't run over a quarter-mile anymore,

because the speeds are getting too high.

Oh, really?

Yeah, so they run over 1,000 feet,

which is just a bit less.

I think a quarter-mile, maybe 1,200, 1,300 feet or something like that.

Anyway.

And I think she did it in 3.4 seconds

and got to 340 miles an hour

from rest in that time.

I mean, it's absolutely...

I mean, back when I was really into

and knew a lot about top-fuel dragsters,

going to Santa Pod down,

I'm talking maybe 30 years ago,

even then, any old sort of common old garden

top-fuel dragster will get to 100 miles an hour

in less than a second.

That was just like sort of baseline.

North to 100, less than a second.

And at Santa Pod, they were running,

and that was over a quarter.

They were running sort of 260, 270 mile an hour,

quarter-miles in 5.2, 5.3 seconds.

And, okay, they're going over shore to distance now,

but they are... I mean, it is...

So, again, that is all about

doing something that's never been done before,

almost whatever it was.

But nevertheless, it has to be something worthwhile

because you and I could jump up and down,

wearing silly hats, standing on one leg,

and probably do something that's never been done before.

But it wouldn't be terribly interesting.

So, what does there have to be?

What are the components which suddenly make it,

which somehow tap into that thing in our heads,

which makes us want to read about it?

Do we think that there has to be an element of danger in it,

or physical accomplishment, or discomfort, or a cheat?

I don't know.

I don't know exactly what it is.

But speed has always intrigued us.

From, you know, I bet you, you know,

500 years ago, if you had a horse,

and your mate had a faster horse than you,

you'd get rid of your horse and try to get a faster horse,

wouldn't you?

You wouldn't want to have the slowest horse, would you?

No, no.

Maybe it's a sort of...

It's within us, isn't it?

The primal survival thing, faster just seems better.

Exactly. And if you think back to, you know,

you think back to, you know,

Chuck Yeager breaking the sound barrier in 1947.

You know, everything that went around that.

And the lap, you know, before it become...

We talk about geography, don't we?

But, you know, there's no geographical limitation

greater on earth than for people

who are trying to break land speed records,

which is why it hasn't happened since 1997.

But, you know, I can remember growing up

and thinking of Richard Noble at Black Rock Desert in 1984

doing 633 miles an hour and just thinking,

wow, that is just incredible.

So, yeah, there was something within us.

And, you know, some person who analyses human nature

would be able to explain that deep down,

it's to do with some, you know, fight or flight,

hunter instincts that the first person who ever gets,

you know, runs faster, gets, you know,

gets the wildebeest and gets to have a dinner and whatever.

It's something like that, isn't it?

Procreate, yeah.

Exactly.

Yeah, I think you're right.

So, I wanted to do a bit about top speed as well.

So, we did mention the, and thinking about it,

there is something about these cars being road legal

and to those who have them available,

so those who have the money available to purchase,

that is somehow a bit more impressive

because they, fundamentally, they are road cars.

And so, we mentioned the Bugatti which did 304.

That's actually not a record, it's not an official record

because it was only a one-direction.

And do you remember Andy Wallace came on and explained to us,

he did it at VW's Aire Lassin test track

where they've got a very, very long straight.

Seven and a half miles, I think.

Yeah, but it's a one-direction track though.

And so, it's been there for years,

it's been used for years and years and years.

But you could just turn around and go back down the same

bit of road, couldn't you?

No.

Is it because there's banking at one end

which is much tighter than the other?

No.

Andy told us that because cars have been running

in one direction for years, the stones in the road

have all sort of been squashed in a certain direction.

And if you ran in the opposite direction,

they would become very abrasive and they'd just blow the tyres.

Why don't I remember that?

That's fascinating.

It's amazing, isn't it?

Factoid.

Yeah.

It's amazing.

Yeah.

So, that's why the Bugatti is an unofficial record.

Now, as far as I can tell officially,

the record is 295 miles per hour by the SSC Tuatara.

Do you know what?

It's hard.

This is one of the issues, right?

What's on that disputed?

Yeah, but I think they've done it properly.

They've gone back and done it, yeah.

There was a whole fuss about it, yeah.

But I think one of the difficult things about all this

is finding a official record is hard because it's not

properly regulated.

Who is the governing body for this stuff?

Well, I mean, ultimately, the FIA.

Yeah, but the FIA doesn't come anywhere near this, it seems.

Yeah, well, then it's not.

I mean, then it's not an officially.

So, what does official mean in that context?

Who knows?

I find it quite tricky.

You know, I think the SSC record are one of them.

But I think you can go to reputable authorities.

That's right.

Maybe you go to MSUK over here or Tuv in Germany or someone

and get them to witness it and to use their timing

equipment and to record it.

And then I think it's as official as official can be.

But there isn't one single governing body

overseeing it and making sure things are done properly.

Well, no.

With consistent timing and whatever else.

But if you want to go and break the land speed record,

then and have your name written in the FIA, I'm still in it.

I'm still a record holder.

Well done.

Very good.

Talladega in a bunch of Saab 900s.

For a week.

It's because records exist for higher speed for, I don't know,

1,000 miles, 2,000 miles, 3,000 miles.

Somewhere in there, there's just one record that nobody

actually bothered to go and break.

So my name's on it.

Anyway, yeah.

So if we're going to go and do it at the top, top level,

these things have to be FIA sanctioned if you want,

if you want to be in the Guinness Book of Records

or you want any kind of credibility for it at all.

But yeah, but you're absolutely right.

So who is measuring?

Who is witnessing?

Do you remember the...

Well, you won't.

But there was a thing called the Budweiser Rocket,

which in 1979, a bloke called Stan Barrett,

who was a stunt driver, claimed to have broken the sound barrier

and came up with all sorts of statistical data to show that he had.

But it was never officially recognized

because there were some, there were timing errors.

It was only in one direction.

And I think that the view is probably,

I think people said there was no bang,

which is a bit of a giveaway.

And I think that the record has been, not by everybody,

but I think most people think that he probably didn't now.

So unless you've actually got the ultimate authority,

which is the FIA, there and sanctioning and approving it

and legitimizing it, who knows?

Yeah, I know, I totally agree.

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I'm currently talking about the Jesco Absolute

doing 330.

Okay, so they wouldn't do that

because it is, I just think of the tires.

So that presumably has to be on a street legal tire.

Now, you were talking to Andy Wallace

about the tires that they used on the Chiron

and the centrifugal forces that applied

to the edge of the tire at 300 miles an hour.

I mean, it is absolutely astronomical

what you're asking.

The G, those tires are pulling at those sorts of speeds.

So Koenigsegg wouldn't be doing this

just for the fun of it.

They're going to be doing it

because they know that ultimately

it helps sells cars.

And so there must be some people out there

who are prepared to spend millions

and these things do cost millions

because it is the fastest car on earth.

Even though you probably couldn't.

I mean, that Bugatti,

could you actually buy one?

Because they did a 300 mile an hour version of it,

didn't they, which they sold?

But I think you had to mod it quite a bit

before you could get it into the actual spec

that the car was in when Andy drove it.

Yeah, I don't know.

It's all a lot of willy way to frankly.

I mean, to me, when you are so far,

I think that most people listen to this,

kind of understand what 150 miles an hour feels like.

I think most people listening to this

will either have driven at that speed

or have been at that speed.

But when you are talking about road cars

doing twice that speed,

I mean, I understand what 200 miles an hour is like

because I've done it a few times.

But I don't know what 250 feels like.

I don't know what 300 feels like.

I can't really imagine what 300 miles an hour feels like

because 200 miles an hour is so apocalyptically fast

when you're in a car.

Not funny enough.

Well, not when you're in an airplane

or even when you're in a train in France doing 180.

It's only if you just look out the window

and see how fast everything's going to be really.

But if you're in a car on the scenery

flying past you like Star Wars at 200 miles an hour,

you are aware of it.

But I think surely people must,

as these speeds get more and more removed

from anything they can understand.

People must just think, well, okay.

Yeah, well done, guys.

But I can't conceive what that actually is.

Yeah, and so ultimately all this stuff,

I look at it two ways.

Let's take Nurburgring lap times as a specific example here.

Close-up, right?

If I zoom all the way in and I think about the team of people

who have created this car

and optimized this car for this lap record.

And if I think about the phenomenally brave

and skillful driver pulling on his helmet

and getting into the car to go off and do this thing,

in the very sort of close-up sense,

I think it's super cool.

And I have a huge amount of respect for the people

who do these things.

The fact that a driver got in the car

and went that fast around that track,

I just think, wow.

But there's a bigger, broader context.

And if we zoom out, you think about what's actually

being achieved here.

What happens?

What are the consequences of encouraging this sort of thing?

Is it really making our cars better?

I mean, how often on this podcast do we talk about

how important the feel, the interaction,

accessible performance that you can actually use on the road?

We talk about that stuff all the time.

Because as far as road driving goes, that's what really matters.

And that is almost diametrically opposed

to a Nurburgring record lap.

It's not helping that at all.

It's not helping that in one bit.

It's a marketing exercise.

The reason they do it is to sell more cars.

That's all it is.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

It's the reason that the car manufacturers go into Formula One.

They don't do that because they've got,

they're dyed in the wool races unless they're McLaren or Williams

who are founded as race teams.

They do it because ultimately they think they'll sell more cars.

And that's fine.

So from a personal point of view, these hypercars

and things like GT2RS is with Manti kits

going off in search of these records.

Wonderful.

But it's when we talk about slightly more normal cars

setting Nurburgring records,

where I just start to think, what's the point?

Estate cars, SUVs, the sort of more normal fare.

I just think that is now starting to take something away

from what I enjoy about driving.

Because if a car is able to do sub seven minute 30 at the Nurburgring,

it's compromised elsewhere.

Of course.

Of course, because it'll have to have huge tires on it

and it'll probably actually probably weigh a bit more

because you've got to produce a powertrain

which will generate that amount of power

and then you've got to beef up the suspension and the brakes

and everything else.

And it will be a car that's designed to go round a track

which is a very, very different thing to a car

that's designed to get down a decent road.

Yeah.

I wonder where it's all going.

So we're at six minutes 30 just under for a Nurburgring time.

Under six minutes, eventually.

What for a road car?

Yeah.

Well, sitting here here in 2025, I'd say don't be ridiculous.

I know, I know.

But you know, I mean, it wasn't that long ago

that they went under eight.

And now we're under six and a half.

So clearly.

I think that's going to happen.

Unless something happens, unless, you know, they stop,

you know, the authorities at the Nurburgring just say.

Enough, yeah.

Enough because actually, you know, if there was a big accident

and someone got hurt in the year,

they might think that the reputational damage because,

you know, that wouldn't be like someone sticking their 911

in the arco on a normal track day.

You know, if during an official record by an official,

by a big manufacturer, something bad happened.

I mean, that story, if it got out,

will go around the world at which stage

the Nurburgring might well just say,

actually guys, I think you've had your fun.

And this is no longer a sensible way of proceeding.

And then it might stop.

But other than that, if that doesn't happen, of course.

As far as I know, only one car ever has done a sub six.

And you were there, weren't you?

I was there in the 919 EVO.

Certainly not a road car, but...

Timo Bernard.

Yeah.

Do you remember what it did?

It was, it was a...

It was well under six, wasn't it?

Oh yes, it was, was it a 530 something?

It was a 530 something.

So almost a minute faster than the AMG one.

Yeah, but it's a full-on race car.

Well, it was no as much more than that.

It was a full-on race car with all the limitations of the rule but removed.

So it had deployable aerodynamics,

and it had as much power as they can get out of everything.

They took as much weight out of it as they could.

It was, you know, the starting point was a 919,

but it was probably more EVO than 919 by the time it got there.

And I can remember talking to Timo afterwards

and having exactly the same conversation that I had with Lars Kern,

but with a very different answer.

And I was saying to him, did you put it all out there?

And he went, no way.

Really?

Yeah.

He said, he said, because it's the Nurburgring,

he said that Neil Ljani did the lap at the Spa.

And he said, that was absolutely all out, because you're at Spa.

There's some runoff.

And it's a, you know, it's a Formula One specification FIA approved,

you know, grade one circuit.

Which the Nurburgring isn't and could never be.

And he said, yeah, I left a tiny bit in the tank.

Just a little bit left, just for a little bit of wiggle room.

I mean, he still came out of the car for the last run.

Absolutely bug-eyed and, you know,

and he wasn't able to talk before he got in it.

So, I mean, clearly, his idea of living a bit on the table

and mine are probably quite profoundly different things.

But so, okay, so there is a car which is not even relevant

to the Le Mans car that it's based on.

This is a car that has been created almost from scratch

for the sole purpose of seeing how fast a machine

can get around the Nurburgring.

And yet I still found it.

I mean, I remember everything about that day.

There was something within me which knew, on the one hand,

that it was irrelevant and the numbers were actually,

in terms of influence on road car design

or anything else were completely meaningless.

And to me, I think it must be the human component.

That there was a person inside this extraordinary machine

conducting it.

Have you seen the onboard flat through the bottom of the fox hole

at 200 and something miles an hour?

And you're just sitting there thinking,

there's a bloke in there.

That's the bit that blows me away,

the fact that there's a person in there doing it.

That's it.

So, well, I think the proof of that particular pudding is

let us say that, which I'm sure they could,

they could get a robot to drive that car

and to really optimize the lap

because the robot couldn't make a mistake

and the robot wouldn't need to leave anything on the table.

And then the robot, as a result, did a sub-five lap.

Who cares?

I don't think anybody would.

It's not that interesting.

Same car.

The car is identical.

Yeah.

It's that human component.

It has to be there.

Because you remove the human, you remove the interest.

You do.

I was just thinking about a typical UK track day.

You turn up to a track day these days,

loads of GT3 RSs and fast Ferraris and McLarens, whatever.

And the average pace on a UK track day now is fast.

It does depend which track day provider you go with.

It does.

I know there are others.

If you go with an RMA day or something like that,

then it's serious.

It's just littered with serious cars.

And I'm sure there are still days

that are very not like that at all.

But someone posted a video

of a track day at Knock Hill from,

I don't know, 30 years ago or something.

And it's an onboard chasing...

I can't remember what it was.

It's something like a Cavalier.

And it's hopelessly slow.

And this Cavalier is leaning about all over the place

and sort of understeering through corners.

That's probably what track days were like a little while ago.

And now they've just gone potty because the cars are just...

Here's an idea.

How about you have a track day?

I reckon, I reckon you do that.

You'd have to do it at a not particularly enormous circuit

because if you did it at the Silverstone Grand Prix,

you'd feel like you're getting lost.

But you have a 200 horsepower track day.

And I think that all those people who always wanted to go track day

but haven't wanted to get blown into the weeds

would come along with their Suzuki Swifts

and their Fiesta STs.

Absolutely.

And I think if you did it somewhere like Cadwell...

Yeah.

You'd have a hoot.

It'd be really fun.

200 horsepower.

It's a good idea.

It'd be really, really good fun.

Maybe we should do it.

Maybe the next TI track day.

It should be limited to cars with less than 200 horsepower.

To bring out people who wouldn't otherwise do it.

Yeah.

Or bring out cars you wouldn't otherwise see.

Yeah.

It could be like a sort of track theme festival

of the exceptional.

There you go.

You laugh.

I think it's something.

If you do too, let us know.

Yeah.

Get in touch.

Yeah.

So just to wrap this one up then,

I want to talk about briefly about car magazine testing.

As I said, you know, as car journalists,

we have to accept that we're complicit in all this stuff.

But I wonder what were the sort of inflection points for you

in figuring performance cars?

You've already mentioned McLaren F1.

I guess that's the big one.

It was because it just moved the goalposts so much further.

And again, talking about geography.

I'm not sure this is a secret.

It certainly won't be out of this podcast.

That not-to-200-mile-an-hour run was a not-to-200-mile-an-hour run.

But because we were a brunting thaw,

when we were doing the sort of the not-to-60s, not-to-70s,

I mean the traction, the surface was so poor,

we couldn't get anything like anywhere close to the time

so that McLaren thought the car should be capable of.

So what we did is we then took the car to Milbrook

where the surface is good

and did the sort of standing start,

low-speed axels there.

So actually those figures are compiled from two different locations

which I think is legitimate

because you can't penalize the car just for the fact that

it happened to be on the surface which allowed it to do 200 miles an hour

was also the surface which prevented it from getting off the line properly.

So yes, I think that was the sort of the major one for me.

I can remember other cars which really,

I mean the XJ220, before the F1 obviously,

so in 1992 did 63.6 seconds and 107.9.

These days you listen to the numbers and you go,

yeah, next, but back then.

It was something.

I mean so the first car, I can't remember what it was,

but the first car to do a sub 10 second naught to 100,

which I would definitely have been around for

and I should be able to remember what it was.

I might guess it would be something like a 911 turbo.

I mean something with a lot of traction.

Is what I mean because frankly that's what you need.

Yeah, those were big milestones.

I can remember there was a Fiat Tipo,

which was the first diesel powered car to go under 10 seconds and 60.

Please don't ask me why I remember that, but it did.

But other than that, I don't seem to remember,

I can remember just, I can remember it becoming normal

for cars to get to 60 in less than five seconds.

So that was big for me.

Because I think five seconds was a big barrier,

because in the days when I was growing up,

back in the days of coontashes and boxes and that sort of thing,

none of those would get to 60 in less than five seconds.

They all needed five and a bit.

And then I got into the business at the end of the 1980s

and then all these nutty things started coming on,

quite quick succession.

And suddenly we were into the fours

and then we were into the threes.

And that was an enormous step.

But yeah, and it was great fun doing it.

It was, I think getting those numbers,

because these days, all you do is you dial up launch control

and let it go.

There really was, particularly with certain sorts of,

particularly with things like turbo cars,

with quite early era turbos, which were very peaky.

And so finding the balance where you got like,

how did you get off the clutch?

You know, if you slipped it too much, you'd burn it.

But if you just dropped it, what would tend to happen

is the car will either bog down and essentially stop

or you just dissolve the rear tires and wheel spin.

I can remember cars like tuned Ford Sierra's with 400 horsepower

were almost impossible to get a decent set of numbers out of

because it was more by luck than good judgment

that you ever got a good run off the line.

And I loved it when there was skill,

when there was real skill in getting the car off the line,

you know, finding the right speed at which to change gear,

because if you tried to really just ram it through,

there was a very good chance you'd break something

and you'd be going home on the train.

And we'd all done that more than enough times

not to want to do it again.

So to treat the gearbox with the delicacy

and precision and touch that you needed to preserve it,

but also at the same time extract the maximum possible

performance from the car.

There was also, you know,

you're doing this in a confined environment.

Oh goodness, I can remember trying to do,

I think it was a 140 to 160 acceleration run

in a Lotus Carlton.

That's near Cal, we've already mentioned.

Which by modern standards,

I think if you've got one of those today,

I think you'd be surprised by how slow it was,

but back then it was just a,

and I mean, I can remember getting to the end

of the mile straight doing 159.8 miles an hour

at the point where I absolutely,

the absolute last point where I needed to be on the brakes

and just thinking, I'll sod it.

And if you don't know Milbrook,

there's no reason why anybody listening to this would do,

but if you're going in the direction I was going in,

there's a massive apron at the bottom

where you're meant to sort of turn around

to go back up the other way.

But on the other side of it,

there's an approach road which people come down

to join the track.

And I just shot straight across the apron

and all the way up the approach road

on the ABS the whole way.

And halfway up the approach road,

there's quite a tight left-hand corner

and throwing this car into it

at the end of which there's a roundabout

and just getting enough speed after all this time

to get around the roundabout.

So there are moments like that.

It's funny that it seems to matter in the moment, isn't it?

Well, because you want to be the first person to do it.

It's pride.

You want to come back and go,

listen guys, you know what I've done today,

within the confines of one mile,

I've recorded 140, 160 times.

Of course I can't remember what the time was,

of course it doesn't matter,

but when you're 20-something and really stupid

and proud and you want to be able to boast about having done this,

it's why I wanted to go faster around

Millbrook than anybody else had ever been,

because it was something that I felt that I could do

and I was in a position to do it.

And so I did it

and you didn't think too much

about the risk that you were taking.

The one that comes to mind

from magazine performance testing,

and I didn't do it as sort of rigorously

and as consistently as you did,

but I remember just a Porsche Panamera Turbo

drove it up to Brunting Thorpe,

lovely comfy, quiet car, spacious,

really nice thing.

Launch control, three and a half seconds to 60.

It's just zero effort whatsoever

and then it did it again and again and again.

I remember thinking, wow,

this big, heavy, probably two ton car,

just like that doing three and a half to 60.

And I guess part of me thought that that was it now.

We won't go any faster than that.

Little did you know.

And only a few years,

we've now got electric stuff doing

sub two seconds to 60 miles now.

Well, what will that nutty tie can do?

Good question, I don't know.

2.1, I think.

Something like that.

Yeah, I think it's 2.1.

Okay, funnily enough,

talking about Panamera's at Brunting Thorpe,

I went there in a Panamera

with a specific acceleration goal in mine

because I thought it might do it.

And this was the first ever sub 10 second,

0-100 run by a diesel powered car.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

So this was the Panamera V8 diesel.

Yeah.

What a great car.

Why did Porsche stop doing that?

Anyway, I mean, best Panamera I've driven.

Sorry, I do exactly what you do.

I dial that launch control and let it go.

Diesel powered car, long time ago now,

probably 10 years ago now,

0-100 miles an hour in 9.3 seconds.

Diesel.

That is quite something.

And it's, do you know,

it's the rate of progress that is most surprising

when actually the gains presumably

become harder and harder to find.

The rate of progress is massive,

particularly when we talk about 0-60,

but presumably you can extrapolate that across

0-400 to 0, top speeds to Nurburgring times.

I think we've seen that, haven't we?

Things are just getting faster and faster.

If you go back to what I was saying earlier

about the McLaren versus the 0-200 time of the McLaren

versus the 0-249 to 0 than the Navarra are,

I mean, it seems to be accelerating the rate of progress.

It does.

So maybe they will be doing,

so it's almost going to do a 0-300 to 0, aren't they?

Yeah, and that's why it's, yeah, they will.

Can you imagine what you're going to do to your brakes?

You need 300 miles an hour.

It's something weighing 2 tons.

And you ask some discs,

okay, so when is the first road car

going to come with a deployable parachute?

It's going to have to, isn't it?

That's next, isn't it?

Yeah, that's going to win your friends on the M1, isn't it?

So when we sit here and talk about sub-6-minute

Nurburgring times, they seem impossible to imagine,

but I think it's going to happen.

Well, I mean, I can remember a time

when a sub-7 seemed impossible for a road car.

Here we are.

Oh, blimey. Well, is it getting out of hand?

I think it is, but goodness me, it's exciting watching it happen.

I do think it's getting out of hand.

I do think you are, although the speed's getting higher

and the rate of acceleration does appear to be great,

I think in terms of benefit of value,

we must be getting into diminishing marginal returns now

because it happens.

So many people happen to do so many figures so often

and because they are, because people just can't understand

what that actually means, how fast that feels.

I'm not sure that, I mean, I've said before on this podcast,

I haven't know that there is no currency

more devalued than acceleration

because it's actually after a certain point,

it just gets unpleasant and maybe going round.

I mean, I have no desire to let the Nurburgring

in six and a half minutes.

I would be utterly terrified.

I would hate every millisecond of it.

I mean, hats off to the guys who do

and I do wish those who continue to attempt it,

all the luck and all the safety

and everything else in the world, but leave me out of it.

Yeah, well said.

All right, let's wrap this one up.

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300mph top speeds. 6min 30 at the Nürburgring. Are cars too fast? #277

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