911 or Boxster for Your First Porsche?

Welcome to Renthusias Radio, the podcast where Will and Derek navigate the winding roads

of Porsche Obsession, exploring the good and the bad of Porsche ownership.

Grab your favorite beverage, pull up a chair, and join us, Renthusias Radio, because life's

too short not to talk about Porsches.

Welcome to Renthusias Radio.

I'm Derek.

And I'm also Derek.

Happy holidays, everyone.

Happy New Year.

Will and I are off this week, traveling around the globe for a week or two.

So we're not going to have any YouTube content up this week, but I don't want to leave my

audio audience hanging out there.

Well, we're certainly number one with folks mowing their lawn.

Here in the Northeast, I'm trading that for folks out there plowing with their

headsets on under their hats, and I'll take it.

But even though the year is winding down, man, there's a lot of stuff going on.

And I actually picked a really fantastic episode for you all to listen to this week.

It's an episode that happened almost exactly a year ago.

And it's on a topic regarding a question that I still get asked on a weekly basis by

folks that are looking to buy their first Porsche.

And that's essentially, do I buy a 911 or do I buy a Boxster?

In this episode, you'll hear me talk about I had walked into a bank and I looked

through like this weird vault door that someone had their office inside.

And I had a laugh to myself because there was a shelf of all Porsche stuff in there.

And so I went in and had a discussion with the gentleman that worked there.

And that discussion kind of turned into, hey, I'm looking at two different cars.

And I'm really curious, you know, what are your thoughts on which one I should

get for my first car?

Now, what's very interesting is 12 months later, have our opinions changed.

For those of you that have been listening, I mean, in a lot of ways, yes.

And especially on Will's side, when it comes to a 997, I mean, Will certainly

had a certain feeling about them.

But now, you know, having owned his 997.2, that is absolutely fantastic

back road ripper, I think his attitude is a lot different.

And while I say that, I'd be remiss if I didn't ask the audience to go check

out his latest video on Redthusie's YouTube channel, because the title of

it is actually, is the Porsche 997 worth buying in owner's honest opinion?

And so it's going to be very interesting for you folks to re-listen to this

episode and then maybe go check that out.

And after you're done with that, I'd encourage you all to go over to my

YouTube channel, 11 After 9, all spelled out 11 After 9.

I just dropped a video this past week on the base Porsche 986 Boxster.

So Porsche's first bid into the Boxster category, now going on 20 years old.

I really looked at it as the definition of an entry level Porsche.

And I put out about 15 minutes on it with a lot of driving impressions.

And I actually think I might have surprised a lot of the audience with my

opinion about it, especially someone who's kind of an avowed base Porsche fan.

So please go check that out.

I really enjoyed making it.

And I really make a point in that video to talk about who I think that car

is right for and actually who it is not right for.

So go check it out.

And please let me know what you think in the comments down below those videos.

So as I'm recording this, I am looking out my window and snow is falling.

And here in the cold, white expanse of New England, winter is absolutely here

as it is and has blanketed most of the northern part of the United States.

And what does that mean for us?

That means put your fun toys away, continue to look at the calendar and mark

the date where you hope that salt is off the roads and that you can get back

in your fun Porsche of choice.

So what some of you might not know, and we don't really talk about it

very much on the podcast, but Will and I do a fair amount of consulting

with some listeners or prospective buyers on the side, you know, folks that

reach out to us and say, Hey, listen, I'm looking to purchase this type of car.

What should I look for?

Or, Hey, I'm in between these couple cars or, Hey, I want to buy a Porsche

and I don't know what I don't know and can you help me get there?

And so I bring that up because one question comes up over and over again

from a lot of folks.

And essentially that is I live in a climate where I really shouldn't be

driving my car very much.

And I don't want to put it away.

And so what do you think?

Do, do I, Derek, do I have your permission to drive this car in the winter?

And I have a really very unpopular opinion when it comes to this.

And I think a lot of folks are going to be grabbing their car stereo,

saying, Derek, you're nuts.

But gosh, you know, over the last couple years, I've actually had a lot

of friends that have been diagnosed with cancer or have had tragedies in their

lives and whether their lives and lives of their loved ones have been cut short.

It certainly makes me reminisce on the fragility of life and how when you think

I'll do something later or I'll plan for something later, they're very

well might not be a later.

And my opinion used to be an early in my ownership.

You got to put those things away.

Salt is going to destroy your car.

You know, it's not good for your, your motor to start and then start your car

and on all this stuff.

And I, and I'll be honest, my opinion has really changed and my opinion has been

you don't know what tomorrow brings, especially in this crazy world we live

in. And the worst thing you can do is get the car that you absolutely love

and you adore and you're looking at it in your garage.

And essentially by not driving it, you're saving it for the next guy or girl.

You have to ask yourself, what am I saving?

Now, listen, when it comes to the old Porsche metal was my 1972 when it

comes to the winter and salt.

It reminds me a lot of, if I, if I got that car near some of the road salt

here in New Hampshire, it's like water on toilet paper.

I can just every single salt particle that lands on that car.

I just see the metal like fizzing away and folding back.

And that's a whole other story entirely.

But, you know, after Porsche started galvanizing their bodies in the, in the

mid seventies, the cars became very, very stout.

And unless they're seriously abused and left out in a field or, you know,

or really, really abused, it is actually fairly rare, especially on

911s to find any appreciable rust.

That isn't to say you don't have surface stuff underneath and, and, and bits

and bobs in certain areas, you know, like with the bottom of the windshield

and things like that.

But overall, Porsches are very, very well built and Porsche really made

a concerted effort to protect these cars from inclement weather.

And so all this is to say that my opinion has been changing these last

couple of years and I've been telling a lot of people, listen, if you have

a more modern car, you know, especially some of the water cooled cars, and

it's a dry winter day, especially, you know, maybe post a rainstorm with

some of the salt is off the road.

But if it's a dry winter day and your tires are okay to do it, maybe you

have all seasons instead of summer tires or go whole hog and get yourself a

pair of Michelin Alpen tires and those are sports car tires for the winter.

But go out and drive it.

Go out and have fun.

Go take your 45 minute drive, go take your hour and a half drive and go enjoy

the car because it, you know, you could go bankrupt next week, you could

get hit with a health tragedy, you could have something that would happen that

would preclude you from having that car and enjoying it in the future.

So enjoy it today.

Now, all this is with the caveat that on your way home, please stop at a

self-service car wash and really give it a good spray down to get everything off

your car before you put it away.

Okay.

I'm not crazy here, but I know this is an extremely unpopular opinion, but

it's one I've really kind of taken to heart.

Okay, Derek, you're nuts.

I'm not going to do it.

This is my baby.

All right.

I hear you.

Well, then look at, um, look at an alternative, you know, one of the things

that I do is I actually, and again, this is if you have the financial

wherewithal or the space, but look at another car.

You know, I, I actually run a 2011 BMW 128 stick that I keep in the garage that

I drive all winter, especially in dry days.

I have winter tires on it and it is an awesome little car and it's fun and it

scratches the itch of driving a manual car through the winter and sit on my truck.

So I don't lose my mind and I can keep my head in the game when it comes to

enjoying some of the back roads on these dry days.

And I can tell you, there's absolutely nothing more fun than having winter

tires on a rear wheel drive car, low horsepower and going to a parking lot,

you know, to park, of course, in the snow, um, or just really just driving

around in, in these winter roads, but that's all done in Mexico on a closed course.

So I'll leave that there, but we definitely have options in the winter

if you don't want to get your car out, but I do implore you don't save your

car for the next person.

And that also goes for folks that I talk to on a weekly basis that are on the fence.

Should I, should I not?

I've been saving up for 10 years and I really want to get this car, but I'm going

to get this car instead and I'm going to get this other car when I retire or in,

in 10 years, when I feel I'm at a point where I can do that.

And this maybe isn't great advice, but I again, really just encourage people to,

you know, don't wait.

Tomorrow isn't promised.

And, um, if you can have that experience today, you can put that in your memory

banks and in your, in your mental Rolodex, um, as something that's going to be

formative as you go down your automotive purchasing and ownership journey.

All right, enough off the soapbox.

That's just something that is actually, it came up from two or three clients

this week that had asked me, um, as the, the winter was going on.

So I wanted to share that with you guys.

Um, but, uh, I mentioned earlier in my little preamble here that there is a lot

going on, uh, in the Renthusias radio world.

And of course, a lot of that has to do with my partner and good friend, Will.

Um, he's put it up on social media.

So I don't feel like I'm revealing anything that is crazy.

And this is actually going to be a fantastic discussion when we get back

together in a week or so.

Um, so Will, uh, posted a picture of his 991.2 on the back of a truck heading

out of town, not to the mechanic, but to its new owner.

And so I'm really excited to talk with him and share with all of you about how

that decision tree went in terms of moving that car to its next caretaker.

Um, but as you all know, after listening to Will on this podcast for the last

year and a half or so, um, there's always something on the back burner and always

something that's going to be joining the garage and, uh, Will posted, uh, I

believe it was yesterday or two days ago, a beautiful picture of his incoming car,

which I'm actually really excited about too, a 996 generation GT three.

Now beyond that and the color, I really know nothing else.

Um, this was something that actually surprised me when Will chatted with me

and, and told me this was coming.

And so this is going to be a really exciting discussion because a rare car,

a really fun car.

And I think it's something that really bridges the, the world between the newer

GT world in the old school, Porsche mentality of no drive raids, lots of

horsepower, bare bones and as analog as you can get.

And I mean, I predict that Will is going to absolutely love this car, but we're

going to talk about that too, because it's like in this beautiful dark gray.

Oh my God, it looks amazing.

So we will get into all of that in the upcoming weeks and I'm still on the

search, uh, for my next car in the garage, um, I'm bouncing back and forth

between a first generation Cayman, um, or maybe a, uh, first generation 911, uh,

water cooled again myself and 996, which I've had never owned.

And so who knows, it might be that both Will and I have new 996s in the garage

to start 2026.

So we'll see, um, uh, looking for an affordable coupe, uh, in a stick.

And so here in New England, those are about as rare as hen teeth, uh, coming

into January, but, um, you know, my feelers are out and that might be a

really fun experience.

And I think that that is something that for the audience out there, um, is of

interest and so it'll be fun to share that journey.

So I want you all to enjoy this episode again, almost a year old in terms of Will

and I chatting with our mentality from 12 months ago about where it makes sense

when you look at a Boxster variant and a 911 variant for someone coming into

Porsche ownership, but above all, I really want to just take one more second

and thank all of you.

This has been an amazing ride for the last year and a half on the podcast.

And all of you supporting Will on the Renthusias YouTube channel and supporting

myself on 11 after nine on my YouTube channel, by and large, almost completely

100% has been such an amazing positive experience with you folks out there that

really love the brand and love to talk about your opinions and become part of

the fabric of these channels.

And you have both of our most sincere thanks.

It has been an amazing journey and something we look forward to doing every

week.

And frankly, we often ask ourselves why you guys like to listen to our

crazy harebrained opinions that change by the week, but with all of that

saying, happiest new year to all of you out there, we're going to have an

amazing 2026.

Will and I are going to be getting together to chat about some pretty

huge things coming up for the channel and for both the YouTube channels in the

next 12 months and really excited to share all of that with you and bring you

along.

So again, thank you to all of you, whether you're sitting on a lawnmower or

pushing a snowblower, and we'll see you in the new year.

Welcome to Renthusias Radio.

I'm Derek.

I'm Will.

So guys, this week, we wanted to go a little bit off script here and talk

about something that a viewer actually approached me about.

So I was out in the wild and in a place of business, and I don't want to

necessarily name it, but in that place of business, I know it's an office and

the office was full of Porsche stuff.

And so I did what I was there to do and went over and talked to the guy.

And lo and behold, he was an aspiring Porsche owner, and he had a lot of

questions about what kind of Porsches should I look at.

I'm in between two.

So we wanted to talk about that today and talk about the pros and cons of two

entry level.

Well, I'll use that word a little bit.

Maybe used to be.

Maybe used to be entry level.

I mean, my God, man, no such thing is cheap anymore in the Porsche world.

So we're going to bat it around, because how do you get into this, and

especially when you're looking at two really cool cars?

First, I just want to mention, if you all could, as you're listening to

this on your radio driving around, please like and subscribe, give us some stars,

give us some reviews, ask us some questions.

This whole episode actually came from a situation where the gentleman approached

me and kind of said, hey, what do I do?

So we definitely read all of the comments and we read all of the likes and the

dislikes.

And so please be part of the conversation.

And on the YouTube, please also like and subscribe.

We do love that feedback.

So, Will, so I'm talking to this gentleman and he is super passionate about the

Porsche brand.

He literally had a whole bookshelf in his office of Porsche books, Porsche

models, and that's what drew me over.

Just to be like, hey, dude, what do you, you know, what do you own?

You know, I'd love to know just because I love to talk cars.

And we got into the situation and he said, you know, Derek, I'm in between two

cars and I don't know which ones I should, between the two, what should I pick?

I'm in between a 997.2 and a 981.

And so what a 997.2 is for those of you that don't know is this is a water

cooled Porsche 911 that was built between the years of 2009 and 2012.

They came in an S variety and a regular Carrera variety.

Then they came in a GTS and turbo variety as well.

I think we're going to talk probably about the entry level Carrera version.

Maybe the S.

Who buys the base?

I'm going to get hate for that right there.

I mean, I know some people who know this world and they're really high on the

Carrera, not the next level trend, the S, but we can get into that shortly as well.

The 981, the other Porsche we're going to talk about is actually a Boxster or a Cayman.

We're going to probably talk about the Boxster variant today.

And that's between the years of 2012 and 2016.

Still a flat six motor, but it's a completely different car.

A mid-engine versus rear engine when you compare the Boxster to the 911.

So, you know, even though they're in the same family wheel, he definitely had a

choice between two very different types of drives.

And so I wanted to kind of bat it around because, you know, he said, Hey, Derek,

and what would you do in that situation between the two?

It's my first Porsche.

I haven't driven both yet.

And what should I do?

All right.

I would like to, before we jump into that, because we're trying to do a better job of

remembering not everyone who listens is a deep Porsche nerd.

They may be a casual enthusiast.

So I want to just make another, you know, couple of noteworthy remarks about the 997.2.

So Porsche made a, the 997, Porsche 911 for what is it?

05 to 12, right?

So that's a, the internal code, the designation they called with 997.

Is that the right year range, Derek?

Yeah.

The dot twos from 09 to 12.

Right.

So the dot ones, they, they had a few problems, I think, right?

So there were some bore scoring issues.

And then in the early cars, I think the early cars still use the IMS bearing.

Is that right?

They did.

Yeah.

They did, but it's an unserviceable unless you split the case.

And so in that dot one variant, you know, it was, it was, it had more motor problems.

So Porsche, as they often do, they had a mid-cycle refresh.

And that was in 2009, went from 09, as Derek said, to 12.

And they put a new motor in that car.

It was a direct fuel injection, I think they call it engine, which supposedly got rid of

the problems that were occurring in the early cars.

So when you talk about 997.2s, that's what we're talking about.

For me, I think the second noteworthy item about the dot twos is the relatively limited

production of these cars.

So they're, they're semi rare, even when they were brand new.

And that was because you had the, the global financial meltdown.

So they knew their market.

There were fewer people buying Porsches at that point in time.

And so they manufactured fewer.

So that, that's an aspect of the dot two that's interesting.

So the motor, we'll get into that in a minute, how it feels.

I owned one of those cars, but I think it's also important to know that right out of the

gate, they were pretty rare.

And so thus they're becoming more collectible.

So do you have anything to add to that piece, Derek?

No, I think that's a really fantastic point, though, to kind of put it in perspective of

timing where people weren't buying these, you know, over a hundred thousand dollar brand

new Porsches at the time, 0809.

And so for that very reason, there are less of the dot twos, especially in the first two

years of production.

And take that, and we can talk about this as well, that in 2009, in addition to a brand

new engine, as Will mentioned, a DFI or direct fuel injected engine, they also was, 0909

was the first year of the PDK, which, you know, is the automated manual.

It's, it is Porsches answer to an automatic car where the shifts are lightning fast.

It's a heck of a transmission for those that don't want to shift manually.

And so when that came out in 09, the dealers were, you know, very high on getting people to

give it a try, because it really was a revolutionary step forward for Porsche in terms of that

market.

But because of that, the take rate on those was far greater than just a normal kind of

automatic transmission would have been.

And so to find a manual, 997.2 is rare as Hen's teats.

Yes, sir.

That's right.

So, so we'll talk about the price points here in a few minutes.

And I have some opinions on that.

And I, and my first Porsche 911 ever was a, it was a 997.2 C4S with a PDK.

So I can, I think just kind of talk a little bit about that.

But now, Derek, you did some homework on this.

I think you're a more organized presenter than I am.

And so you did a pros and cons list, I guess for each.

I'm a little bit of a, you know, seat of my pants, dude.

So why don't you, how about this?

I'll throw it over to you.

And why don't you be organized and how you present this?

Well, yeah, thank you.

So let's do that.

Let's, let's talk about the pros and cons of each of these cars.

Because I think there's value in both of the models for the YouTube audience.

I'm just putting up a kind of a slideshow of some 997 pictures as we talk about it.

Couple things, the, again, like I mentioned, the 997.2 comes in two flavors.

It comes in its base Carrera form, which is a 3.6 liter, 345 horsepower motor.

And it comes in an S version, which is a 3.8 liter, 385 horsepower comes in either

a six speed or a PDK.

So I know in the past, you're going to be talking about when you had an S in a PDK

and I actually had a base Carrera in a stick.

So here are the pros for a 997.2 that I shared with this gentleman that I met.

Performance wise, it's just a more powerful car than the Boxster.

In a straight line speed, it is a fast car or faster car.

And while it has a lot more mass behind it, it's, it is generally kind of a more powerful car,

likening it more to kind of a GT type of car.

It also has a level of practicality.

You do have two plus two seating.

So if you have a young family and you can put some kids in the back or you do some

traveling with luggage, while the Boxster does have a front and a rear trunk, the 9-11,

you can fit a lot in there with the front or front trunk or folding down those rear seats

for luggage.

The big thing, and you touched on it earlier, Will, really has to do with the motor.

And so, you know, with the 996, which was in the early 2000s, the first 997, which was in

05, really kind of took the 996 motor.

It was a carryover.

And so, you know, that brought with it the great characteristics of a 996, but also a lot of

the problems.

And so the IMS bearing that we talked about earlier, some of the bore scoring issues, those

carried over into the early 997s.

And so Porsche did, for the DOT 2, they really kind of moved on from that.

And they came out with a direct fuel injected motor that did away with the IMS bearing issues.

Did they do away with the bore scoring issues?

I guess we really don't know, because I've heard that there might be some issues there as well.

Yeah, but you got to ask yourself, where's that information coming from?

I've seen it come from somebody who's involved in a motor rebuild business.

And so, yeah, you know.

You don't know.

But the motor is, you know, one of the big changes along with, like as I mentioned, the

advent of the PDK or the kind of the very fast shifting automatic transmission.

Value-wise, 997 DOT 2s, they tend to hold their value really well.

They have seen kind of a little bit of a glow up post COVID.

They've come down a little bit, but really, they're still, you know, holding their own

as far as people buying them, driving them for a while.

It's also a pretty car.

It has that same timeless design of all 911s.

The, I think everyone will admit the 997 is a very nice, pleasing shape.

Harkening back to some of the early 911s, maybe the 993.

And so those classic user there, so in coop form, they're really, really very attractive.

All right.

So let's talk about some of the cons.

And these are some things that I also shared with this gentleman.

They definitely have a higher entry level price to get, play the game, to get in on buying

one versus a 981 Boxster.

And so that, you have to take that into consideration while they might hold their

value long term, to play the game, you got to show up with the cash.

And so it's probably about 15 to 20% more overall.

Maintenance costs, you know, it is a 911.

Both cars are very complicated.

But you have to realize that the earliest of these 997 DOT 2s will are what?

Coming on 15 years old at this point.

And so if there's any deferred maintenance, and this goes, I guess, with all Porsche,

you know, this is something you have to consider because it is a 911.

And at the end of the day, it is 120, 130 thousand dollar car, even though you can pick

one up for somewhere between 50 and $70,000.

Another con, the interior is getting a little dated.

It's a huge jump up from the 996s in terms of kind of the touch surfaces, little leather,

all the soft touch plastics.

It's a very nice cabin and it has aged very well.

But, you know, if you hop in one of these, you can definitely kind of see, especially

if it has kind of an old school nav from 2009, 2010, it tends to age just a touch.

And then ultimately it is a rear engine car.

And so Porsche has dialed out a lot of the issues with rear engine cars as they've progressed

with suspension tweaks and widening the back and bigger tires and all this.

But ultimately, you have to drive it differently.

So if you're going to get in this and think you're going to drive it like a Mustang,

you're in for kind of a rude surprise.

And so that's my quick pros and cons of the 997 will.

Let's talk about the car that you bought and what your impressions were.

OK, so this was my first 911 ever.

I was uninformed.

I was coming out of an E92 M3.

And I didn't really realize that I had the way that I bought cars is I would like, you

know, I started small in the BMW E30 world.

So the price point might have been like 10, 15 grand to get in.

And then slowly but surely I would sell them and then add more cash.

And so I had this E92 M3 gorgeous car.

But I was like, man, you know, I want to move into the Porsche world.

And now I have enough cash when I sell this to do it.

And so I bought a 2009 997.2 C4S with PDK.

I didn't know much about them.

And so number one, I was chasing a manual hard.

And I don't want to this story could go a little long.

But I found a basalt black 997.2 C4S in manual.

It had beautiful.

And this is not the correct factory color, but it had this peanut butter interior.

It was not your lame sand color, but it was peanut butter.

So I love that.

That's a special order, right?

Oh my God, dude.

That's expensive.

And I didn't know what I was looking at.

I flew all the way out to like Redmond, Washington and looked at the car and the

seller was a little bit skeezy.

He was strong money on it.

He wanted 60 and I really had low fifties in mind.

So that threw me off.

And then I was just like, God dang, I got to ship it all the way across the country.

And I wasn't used to doing that.

And so I think I wasted an opportunity and I backed away.

That was the one to have.

And so by that point in time, I was like fever pitch search mode and I got in a hurry.

And so I bought about an hour away.

I found this Meteor Gray C4 SBDK car and I went and drove it and was one of those

kind of like, okay, well, I'm looking for manual, but it's been too hard to find.

I'm sick of looking.

So I'm going to go grab this car and I bought it.

And there was a couple of things that I didn't realize at the time.

Like I found it to be lackluster.

I was really looking for that rear engine experience that you read about, but I

didn't have any context.

And so I didn't realize just how in my view, and I don't mean to be negative.

But how kind of unexciting the driving characteristics were with that all wheel

drive, the front end felt heavy.

I didn't, I hadn't driven any other 911s embarrassingly enough, but I just found

that the C4S driving experience at least was lackluster.

The PDK, interesting gearbox.

I hadn't done a lot of homework on that.

Compared to the modern PDKs, it's very antiquated.

And so it'll shift quick.

And what's fun too, is you put it in sport mode and you really get in it.

And it's really crazy because it feels like, feels like something's going to break,

but it feels like somebody's kicking the back of your seat every time.

I was just going to say, yeah, in between shifts, right?

It really shifts hard.

It does.

And it truly is like you got a kid sitting behind you, kicking your seat.

Every time it shifts, like right down to your ass, right?

So it's anyway, so that was cool.

But my problem was this, and this is just like a lesson to somebody who might be

looking for one of these period.

If you've got a certain spec in mind that you really want, don't compromise.

Because for me, that car lasted about six months.

I wanted to love it.

It was gorgeous to look at that C4S back end.

Oh my God.

So, I mean, I have experienced driving the car, but in fairness, I didn't

spend a lot of seat time in a Carrera S manual.

Now, I fast forward a few years.

I'd been out of some 9-11s.

I had started this YouTube channel and I had a series of videos I was doing.

It was like owner interviews.

So I had people reaching out to me.

I live in central North Carolina.

So people reaching out to me who had cars they wanted to feature on my channel,

who were maybe within an hour of me and a gentleman by the name of James,

reached out and he had a, basically, let's see, it was a Carrera S.

And as I recall, it was in meteor gray and it was a manual with black interior.

So he brought the car out.

We shot a video and it was super successful.

It's on my channel.

If somebody wants to go look inside of that playlist, it was the ins and out.

I mean, the man's an encyclopedia.

I interviewed him on camera.

I mean, he has tons of technical information and he's got a really

fascinating story, but I digress.

So pros and cons, I think it's a good investment car.

I think it's a gorgeous car.

His car was fun to drive in manual.

It's really the one I'm sorry I didn't buy.

You know, Carrera S rear wheel drive.

But I'll just say this, man, like I started chasing one of these a few

months back because I wanted to scratch the edge for a new generation, by the

way, I've been through a lot of them.

Uh, I won't get into all that.

Hmm.

Maybe like 10 or 11, maybe even 12 different cars across any number of generations.

So I mean, in other words, I've walked a walk here.

I've been through them.

I found that that DFI motor, it has its own characteristics.

And I kind of felt like it was like a vacuum cleaner.

It just didn't feel like it had a lot of soul to it.

Now you're getting into the whole, Hey, I don't have to worry about all these problems,

which peace of mind was awesome.

That's why I went for a 997.2.

Again, I was reading forums and Facebook groups and stuff.

I didn't have a lot of real world context, but I just knew I didn't want to deal

with any catastrophic motor failure.

I didn't have enough money to sustain that kind of a hit at the time and, you know,

a motor rebuild.

And so I just stayed away from it.

Um, but I didn't, I didn't love the motor characteristics.

And especially now that I've, I've owned a great number of these cars.

It's just, it was, I don't know.

I mean, I've read about how DFI does that just in any different make cause other

manufacturers were going with that technology.

I don't know.

So there was, so there was that.

And I, um, I, I was chasing one of these a few months back and I, and I

test drove one and I just kind of was underwhelmed.

It's hard to put a finger on Derek.

I mean, I would just, I think a lot of people would love, I mean, clearly a lot

of people love the car, but with my context, I'm looking for something a

little, with a little more character, a little more soul.

Uh, but if, you know, if you're new to the brand, it's a great option.

And it's, it is a, it's a pretty car.

So, you know, that's my, that's my anecdotal feeling on it.

I had a, I had a 2009 Carrera base cab and it was, you know, I had owned a few

older air cool cars before that.

That was really my first water cooled Porsche.

And I was surprised about how quiet it was compared to some of the older cars.

And by quiet, I don't just mean from a, from a kind of an audio standpoint.

I mean, less vibrations.

The DFI was a very competent motor and it was actually very fast.

It was, the Carrera base is a very fast car and people count it out and they go for the

gas, but the, that car, it was a rocket ship, but to get a lot of the, the fun in

the theater, you had to really kind of rev it out because it was, I think it found a

lot more of its fun in the high revs, but it was a very competent engine, but it was

also very like well-mannered.

Not a lot of vibrations through the, through the stick, through the pedals,

through the seat, it was, I mean, you said it, it was kind of like a vacuum cleaner.

I can't say that you're way off base by that statement compared to other 911s.

I mean, you compare that to like a BMW.

I have a, an 011 128 and sometimes I have to make sure the car is even on when I'm

driving it because it's so smooth, right?

And so I'm not saying it's that at all, but it is definitely not kind of the overall

like punch you in the face.

You're in a 911 like visceral.

So what I did is I went to Darren Fister, got a couple of stage two cans to put on

the back and that woke the sound right up.

Actually, you know what he did?

Yeah, well, here's the thing, Will.

And this is again, we talk about forms of death and you talk in, you know,

everyone has an opinion on the forums and so everyone said, well, yeah, yeah, no,

it's good.

I mean, Darren Fister has the best exhaust out there for these cars, but if you

really want the sound, you got to do a cross pipe and X pipe, they call it.

And that takes out the resonators.

And I said, I said, Will, I said, I need that in my life because I really,

because it was a very quiet car.

It was super quiet.

So I did that and I actually had the shop up the street of my town do it.

The owner of the shop called me and he said, Hey, you want to come by and you

want to listen to this car real quick before you take it because it's loud,

like obnoxiously loud.

And just want to make sure you like this before you take it away.

So I went over there and it was up on a lift and they revved it for me.

And it was obnoxiously loud.

And I kind of looked at them and I go, I kind of like it.

I'm like, I'm like, all right, that's that sounds awesome.

Because I just wanted to feel well, just wanted to feel.

I think, man, you just hit the nail on the head and I'm just, I'm so obtuse and

I can miss the obvious.

The DFI motor, at least as it was stock set up for me, just didn't have a lot of

vibration.

It didn't have the theater.

It was super smooth and it was fast.

But in hindsight, it just was missing that raw edge that even the more modern

cars can deliver.

So I think that's a good pickup.

And so, you know, I don't want to beat up on the car.

It's a great entry 9-11, you know, if you, if you want to swing for the fences

on your first Porsche, I would say that you do a 997.2 Carrera S.

I'm an S guy just because I think you got a brag to your buddies.

You got an S. Sorry.

Sorry, dude, in manual and a cool color would be preferred.

I think a lot of them though are gray or silver and, um, yeah, or blue or blue.

So, so I don't know, man, do you have anything to add to that?

Cause I do want to get over to the 981 as well.

Yeah, let's go to 981.

Yeah, let's, let's talk about 981.

And then, and then I'm going to talk about probably what I would do between the

two and my advice to this gentleman that I met.

So pros for the 981.

So again, the 981 is a Boxster or Cayman.

That's the internal code for Boxster or Cayman between the years of 2012 and

2016.

We're going to be just talking about the Boxster here, but the Cayman is pretty

much a Boxster just with a roof on it instead of a folding convertible top.

Boxsters have unbelievable handling dynamics.

Their balance with the mid-engine layout is amazing.

Going around corners, the car rotates around you and, uh, it really is something else.

If you're going to be driving these cars hard, the harder you drive them, the more

you're blown away by how capable they are in the car.

Its limits are far beyond what you can do on public roads.

It has a lighter curb weight than the 997 that we're talking about.

So the performance to weight ratio is, you know, really not that bad.

You have two different engine choices.

The base Boxster is a 2.7 liter with 265 horsepower and the, the S version is a 3.4

and that has 315 horsepower.

So 315 horsepower will is, is a fair amount of horsepower for a car that's small.

Um, has a lower entry point than the 997.2 that we're talking about.

And it has a modern design.

Okay.

So I just threw up some pictures of the 981.

So listen, this is a modern looking car.

It is gorgeous.

Even to this day, I mean, God, it looks good.

It really does, man.

It really does.

And, and for the uninitiated, you know, people might think this is a Ferrari.

It has those lines.

It has somewhere between like the beautiful sculpted lines of an Italian car with kind

of the more angular lines of a German car.

They did such a nice job designing this.

And, um, it's, I think a beautiful car.

I owned a 991, which is the 911 version of these, these years we're talking about.

But I will at some point own a 981, which is the car we're talking about now, because

I just think it's gorgeous.

And I love looking at my car.

So here's some, some cons.

Um, if you're, wait, is that a GTS?

I didn't know about it yet.

I didn't know they came in GTS.

See, look at the decal.

Yep.

Oh yeah.

That's so the car that's up there now is, is a GTS and the interior is a GTS.

They definitely did.

And that car, unfortunately is way more expensive than, you know, the base or the

S, but apparently that's the car to own.

If you're going to get a 981, that is a very nice car to drive.

Can we pause on the GTS trim just real quick?

I won't pull yours too far off the box for content, but I have noticed that.

And so for example, I tripped over a 997.2, um, Carrera GTS when I was looking,

it was manual.

And I mean, the thing was like, I swear to God, it was 110 grand.

Now it was at a Porsche, you know, factory dealer, but I was just, I was like, dang,

what's it going to deliver to me?

Is there that much value between S and GTS, which is the up, up level max trim?

Um, I don't know, dude, what do you think?

Is it worth buying a GTS?

Everyone I know that has a GTS, they think it's an absolutely amazing car.

I've driven a couple.

They, they're fantastic.

I think part of it quite honestly, well, and it's just me being honest, is that the

GT threes, right?

Are, you know, a gift from God, uh, you know, according to, um, Porsche owners.

And if you can't afford a GT three, the GTS is the closest thing for mere mortals.

And I think that, that has really, really touched the prices because the GTS is

are nicer.

I'm not going to say nicer.

They are sharper handling cars.

There's a little bit more horsepower.

The brakes are sometimes a little bit bigger than an ass version.

Um, but it, it is still a, you know, a flat six motor and it's still, you know, it

doesn't rev to 9,000.

And, um, I think it's in the name a lot of it.

Uh, for the, let me just say this, I think for the normal person, you'd have to

be driving it pretty hard to know the difference between an S and a GTS outside

of it being a firmer ride.

Um, but that's just my opinion, you know, uh, for those people that just want

the best and you're not going to get a GT three or so, or, or GT four, if you're

looking in these, this style car, um, yeah, GTS is great.

Okay.

So real quick, that, that car I called on it was like mid afternoon.

So up in Baltimore, I think, wasn't even a cool color.

It was like a bronze-ish silver.

I don't know what they call it.

Anyway, um, got the sales guy on the phone.

He's like, dude, there's already a deposit on this car.

He's like, we've gotten so many calls on it.

I don't even understand it because I'm not that familiar with it.

And so the thing got sold like right out of the, um, and I mean, so that just

gives you a sense for what the demand is.

I don't know, man.

I just didn't like it that much, but sorry, let's get back to the main point here.

And, um, and by the way, man, if you guys out there have any opinions on GTS versus

S or even experienced based opinions, I would love to hear that in the comments

on the channel or wherever else you can respond.

So let's get into the 981.

Yeah, for sure.

And, and, and certainly not bashing on the GTS at all.

It's just, is it worth a 30% premium over an S?

That's how I look at everything, right?

You know, is it, is it an objectively better car because of the equipment

that it's, that it, that it has?

And yes, I mean, it is a more driver-focused car than an S, which apparently, you

know, is a faster car than a base, but is it worth 30% sometimes 40% more than

the S version?

And for me, value for money, I don't know if I can make that case.

I'll say this, um, Nathan Merz, who, for those of you out there who aren't

familiar with him, he's a guy that, uh, very well known subject matter expert

in the, in the world of course, PCA relies heavily on him.

Um, he likes, I don't know that it's the 981.

Generation, maybe the 987 generation of Boxster, like he much prefers the, the base,

uh, which is interesting.

And by the way, we're going to have him on the channel.

We're going to interview him.

I'm really excited to have him on.

Uh, so that's, uh, something that we'll be publishing here within the next month.

But I'll just say this, respected dude knows his shit and he likes that Boxster base.

Yeah.

It's, you know, people overlook it because they want the S and, and I understand, I

get that, but I've had the base version a couple of times and, you know, generally

they're a little bit peakier, the base engines, you can rev them up and you find

the power up high.

And so they want to be driven harder.

Whereas sometimes the S having the larger displacement, sometimes that torque curve

is a little bit different and you find, have more grunt down below.

And so you drive them a little differently, but I think both are great engines.

Either, neither a pro, a con or both regarding this 981 has to do with the

fact that it's an open top.

If you're, well, maybe a con, if you're Derek, maybe a pro, I'm not sure, but they

are, let me, let me just say this about convertibles.

When it comes to 981s that up until the 991 generation of 911.

So from 2012, I think that most nine 11s look awkward as a convertible just

because they were designed as coups and they're made, they're made convertibles.

And I don't think it looks quite right because you don't quite have the classic

lines of a nine 11 from 991 2012, nine 11 on, I think the convertibles are just as

beautiful as the coups because the shape is the same and the values generally reflect

that more or less within a couple of percentage points.

When it comes to a Boxster, I think they are objectively gorgeous as a convertible.

And, and now whether that's because they were designed as a convertible first,

I'm not sure, but they are beautiful cars.

And so I think being a convertible doesn't, doesn't discount at all when it comes to those cars.

All right, you're breaking my balls over here.

So let's get back to this whole, like, if you're willing, cap thing ain't for you.

I really do prefer a nine 11 coup.

I just think it's, you know, the iconic shape and I'm with you.

It doesn't really look natural.

So that said, I owned a nine eight one spider for over a year, clearly soft top.

I think for these cars, and that's basically the GT car compared, what the hell the hell

would you say at the spider?

It's, it's a GT car level Boxster is what it is for the nine eight one generation.

But anyway, they deserve the soft top.

I also had a 2016 Cayman S for a period of time.

And you know, that was a hard top.

Clearly the Cayman is, I didn't think it's, it was that good looking of a car.

So I'm all, I'm all about soft top, especially in these nine eight one boxers.

But yeah, man, you know, guilty as charged.

I'm not a huge fan of the nine 11 cab.

So there you go.

I don't have a ton of cons when it comes to these cars though.

Well, honestly, outside of the fact that there's strictly a two seater.

So you have to realize that that if you get this car, it's not,

you're not going to be bringing your family with you, whether that limits your use case

or not, they do have less power, but they also, as I mentioned earlier,

have less weight and they're a smaller car.

And so I think that they're still very quick.

And so the less power is in the con in my mind.

I think the biggest thing is, and we can talk about this very briefly,

honestly, will is just the perceived status of having a Boxster over a nine 11.

I wish I could say that it's more in the mind of people that are coming into the brand

than people in the brand of this perceived.

I need a nine 11 over a Boxster.

But I see it a lot with people that have owned many nine 11s as well,

or more many Porsches, I should say.

So it's tough because the Boxster has for a long time had a stigma to it that it's not a nine 11,

which I think was propagated by the fact that they both looked the same

when the Boxster came out.

And it was perceived as a lesser car, even though dynamically it was not.

What do you think?

I think first of all, you're breaking out some really good vocabulary words on this episode.

Earlier, you mentioned uninitiated.

I'm taking notes over here.

You said mere mortals, which is not commonly used.

And then you got also propagated.

So I don't know, man.

He's caffeinated.

Maybe coca-nated.

I'm just kidding.

But anyway, nice work.

I'm sure that maybe that'll increase our retention here.

Anyway, I will say this, man.

I mean, the idea of status, I have a lot of passion about this topic

and not because I'm a supporter.

If you are like me, you're consuming portion of content online

when you're standing around or whatever, you're getting ready to go to bed or you wake up,

you're looking at your phone, you're reading forum posts, Facebook groups.

Something that irritates me as a strong word, something that I noticed that I think is unfortunate

is you have people going in to a Facebook group and they upload this picture of a car

that they're thinking about buying.

And then they want opinions not necessarily on, okay, give me some experience on this or that.

What do you guys think about this color?

Like, I'm trying to decide if I like it or not.

What do you guys think?

And it's like, dude, you got to buy the car that resonates with you,

the one you want to drive.

So status, I hear you, it exists without question.

But I am just at a stage of my life and in the hobby where I'm going to buy what I want

because it really moves me.

So there's that piece.

So I can't deny that exists, but I do think it sucks.

I, and I guess we're going to get into the choosing of which one here in a moment.

I think a mid-engine Porsche makes a lot of sense as your other Porsche.

So I'm somebody who likes to have a number of different cars in my garage.

I walk out in the morning.

I decide what kind of an experience I want.

Do I want a vintage analog experience?

Do I want a modern water cool?

Do I want a mid-engine?

I think it makes a fantastic second Porsche sitting alongside a 911.

If you're looking to get into the hobby and you've always had a Porsche on your mind,

I get a lot of messages from guys from the channel like,

hey, I'm getting ready to pull the trigger.

Finally, on my first Porsche, will you please talk to me about this?

I think that if you've always had your eye on a 911 ever since you were a little kid,

you got to get yourself a 911.

So I think it depends on your agenda.

You cannot go wrong with a 981 Boxster and a 981 Cayman.

Just in terms of, as you said at the very beginning of this episode,

like the performance, the driving experience, I mean, it's second to none.

It's so good that I have read.

I believe, I don't know if this is true, but Porsche had to handicap them by giving them

longer gearing because in a straight-up competition, performance competition against

the 911, they would win.

Sure.

So Porsche couldn't have that going on.

So anyway, I guess I jumped ahead into this or that.

I think it's always about what your particular motives are.

They're both great cars.

But Derek, maybe I jumped the gun on that, man.

What do you think after your scientific evaluation on your pros and cons list over there?

And I'm sure you assigned points for each one.

I did.

I had my Bunsen burner and my beakers out and I was making sure that my scientific tally was perfect.

You know, man, it's funny.

And again, I'll just say to the audience, Will and I don't talk about what we're going to talk about

ahead of time.

Yeah, there's no scripting.

There's no prep.

I mean, really, especially for me, I show up and throw up and that's a different story.

This is going to be...

So this is really silly because I can't tell you, Will, that I feel the exact same way.

And this is what I told the gentleman when we spent about 15 or 20 minutes in his office

chatting about cars and I said to him, if it's your first Porsche, go for the 997.

Because clearly, he loves the 911.

He always has his entire life.

It's in his mind as the car he kind of wants.

Both of these cars are unbelievable cars.

And in a lot of ways, the 981 is a more approachable daily driver car.

But his use case was he was going to take it out on weekends and enjoy it with his family.

And it wasn't going to be a daily driver here in New England.

And so I said to him, as a first time purchase of the brand, the 997.2, even though it's not cheap,

it's worth saving up a little bit more and getting that car so you can drive it and find out what

the 911 is all about.

It's a relatively reliable car with the motor, with modern electronics.

It's new enough, even though it is 15 years old, that generally age hasn't touched it.

And you can kind of get in it and drive it more than once every once in a while.

Great car.

If it was me, and I've had the pleasure and the privilege of having a lot of

different experiences with Porsche, I would look at the 981.

Because I think that you have this unbelievable GT car that's as fast as you want to be.

It's involving.

It's still small.

It's fun.

It's gorgeous.

And I think that if someone out there has owned one or two

Porsches, maybe they've had a 911 here or there, you definitely need that other flavor

of ice cream when it comes to the 981 to try.

I'm going to push back on you hard, please.

All right.

So let's think about who is at the stage of their life where, and I'm thinking age range,

like where they can afford to dump some discretionary money into one of these cars,

especially at the current price point.

Okay.

I don't know.

I'll make it up.

You're 35 years old to 55.

I don't have the data.

So if you're out there and you do like throw darts at me or whatever.

So, you know, I know for me, when I was young, you know, I had the G-body posters available

to me and I'm a 993 guy.

I always loved it.

It was a hot Porsche when I was in high school, blah, blah, blah.

Derek, who the hell as a kid had the poster of a Boxster?

And maybe this because they were, they were not quite out yet, but who when they were younger

had the picture or a poster of the Boxster on their wall versus the poster of the 911?

I mean, I'm sorry, man.

I mean, I think you touched on it.

If it's your first Porsche, you need to go with the 997, but I don't know, man.

I mean, this is going to sound maybe shitty inside of the hobby, but if I could only have one,

I think if I walked out in the garage and it was a 981 Boxster,

I would be a little bit disappointed instead of having like a 911 sitting there.

I mean, that's just, that's just me, man.

Well, listen, you come from a, you come from a situation where you've had quite a few and,

and, you know, and you can have more than one.

Let me ask you a question.

If you've, if you've owned one or two 911s in the past, say a 997 or maybe even an earlier

air-cooled car and you've sold them, would, would you consider having a 981 in your garage for a

length of time as an experience if you could only have one car?

Okay. So now you're talking about the guy who wants to, to taste the flavors.

And I think absolutely.

I mean, if you're a shorter term, whole guy or woman, you just are looking to process through

the hobby and just feel what it's like to own, treasure, experience each one.

Like, yeah, this is a can't, you should not deprive yourself of one of these for all the

reasons you've talked about.

They're fantastic to drive.

And the 981 specifically are gorgeous cars.

So to answer your question, hell yeah.

I mean, I think if you're going into this world with your first car, I just think,

unless you are totally mesmerized by the Boxster, there's just,

you think Porsche, you think 911.

Most people do.

Yeah, absolutely.

So, man, I'm going to get hate for this because I have published this kind of content before.

And there are some Boxster like purists and they, it's a culture within the culture

and they will get super defensive.

And so I can't wait, you know, because I mean, that's just part of this journey on the podcast.

But anyway, well, this is, I mean, listen, this is us sitting down having some beers

and just talking about cars, you know, we are not aficionados, nor are we experts.

And our opinions are our opinions.

I've owned a bunch of different Boxsters and I've loved them.

And I think they're awesome cars.

And I've sold 911s to get Boxsters and I've sold Boxsters to get 911s.

I think that it's a great experience.

What a choice to have, right?

Like choosing between a 997.2 or a 981, you really can't go wrong.

This guy who's going to make this choice, you can't go wrong.

Even though I think that 997 is a better first choice for him as a first time purchase.

Let me talk to you about prices for a minute though.

Just in terms of kind of like, you know, having, if you, you know, having scratched it,

like have these experiences, 997.2s for a base, you know, they're still over 50.

And to get an ass, especially a stick, you're in the 70s.

Dude, I saw one the other day for, I want to say it was north of 80.

Yep. Sure.

Yeah. Depending on miles and condition and color and all this stuff.

I mean, you could be in the 90s.

That's a lot of money for a 15 year old car.

And, and like I said to you before, like it's kind of like, does that car deliver the 90K 80?

Let's be a little bit more realistic.

An 82.5 experience.

And I just don't know, because then you get into the whole conversation of,

okay, I got 82.5 to spend, what would I buy?

Man, that's a different episode.

But let me, let me, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, and now I'm gonna, I'm gonna

compare that to a 981.

So the Boxters don't hold their values the same way 9-11s do.

And they do continue to come down, especially as new generations are announced,

it kind of depresses the values on generations before that.

And unlike 9-11s, where you have certain generations that kind of pop up

in terms of value, irregardless of the other generations,

Boxters generally kind of stratify into like their, their own like buckets depending on years.

So, Will, you can get yourself a base 981 Boxter for in the low to mid 30s, depending on miles.

And you can get an S for 40, 41, 42, and a decent S.

That's a lot of car for between 30 and $40,000.

That's an amazing value for money.

Yeah. I mean, you're really talking about another episode that we, you know,

best bang for buck.

So there's no doubt.

I mean, that's there.

You cannot argue against that.

I mean, that's, that's so fun to feel like you're getting so much more car than what you pay for.

It, it, it somehow adds to the driving experience.

And I don't know why, but yes, absolutely.

So that's my choice.

Coming out of the this or that, I think a 997 is a great first Porsche if you have the money.

But I think the 981 is, isn't, you, you cannot go wrong.

And for someone that hasn't owned a Boxter before, I think that should absolutely be on your list.

Well, look, man, earlier you said we're just sitting around drinking beers.

It's 1150 in the morning.

So I don't know if you're drinking beer, but it causes me to like question your judgment on this.

I don't drink.

So I, you know, I wouldn't know, but didn't tell you what was in the cup.

I just got liquor in there.

That's right.

He's got liquor in there.

No, I, I kid, I kid.

So, I mean, I respect your opinion.

And I think this has been a pretty fun conversation to have.

I think, again, to put a bow on it, I mean, if you're looking to collect experiences in this

world, the 981 is just, it's a, do not pass it up as an opportunity to own.

Awesome. Good conversation, my friend.

We'll see you on the next one.

All right, my man.

And that's a wrap for this episode of Renthousias Radio.

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911 or Boxster for Your First Porsche?

About this episode

Porsche Boxster

Porsche 911

Porsche 986

galvanizing

water-cooled cars

Michelin Alpen tires

BMW 128

winter tires

old school Porsche mentality

horsepower

Porsche Cayman

Porsche 718 (981)

flat-six motor

bore scoring

IMS bearing

direct fuel injection (DFI)

liter

maintenance costs

rear engine car

Ford Mustang

BMW M3

BMW E92

manual transmission

catastrophic motor failure

motor rebuild

Porsche Carrera

Darren Fister

resonators

Ford Edge

mid-engine layout

curb weight

performance to weight ratio

Porsche Carrera Gts

Porsche GT3

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