952: Cadillac F1, The Price Of Sim, Naturally Violent Engines

This is a car show, but it's also more because cars connect us to every part of our lives.

It's a big deal, or there's a lot going on.

Another thing's going on this week, in fact, since we won't have a podcast, please remember that some time in the afternoon on Thanksgiving Thursday, when you're in the food coma and the awkward conversations have happened at dinner and you're looking for something to pass the time, may I recommend watching our Mazda MX-5 versus BMW Z4 piece that will drop on the main channel right there in the little Thanksgiving afternoon.

We'd love for you to watch it that we're very excited about that piece, cool thing coming also for Christmas Day to really help you with family, but this is the Thanksgiving one.

This is the plan for us to produce video content to help during this time when you're hungry, you need a sandwich, and you're done with family.

Or maybe you're not done with family. Watch with your family.

This is the reason that it's family-friendly also is to be right.

Just sit down and bond over cars. I'm just saying, it's a low bar, there's no religion, there's no politics, it's just pretty cars and pretty backgrounds.

Let's do that, it's coming Thursday.

Exactly, and those cars were so much fun to drive, so much fun to revisit that 2007 comparison.

Crazy, yeah, amazing.

Well, Formula One has announced it has reached an agreement in principle with General Motors to bring GM and Cadillac as the 11th team to Formula One starting in 2026.

There's a lot of details around it, we are just past the 2024 Las Vegas Grand Prix, and this announcement comes out.

Michael Andredi is no longer in the picture. Interestingly, Greg Mafia of Liberty Media is no longer in the picture either, and now this gets announced.

GM is very excited, they won't be producing engines for the first couple of years at least because they don't have an engine.

Apparently, Andredi Global has continued on with their development program despite not having approval, and now that Michael is out of the picture we'll say for the most part.

There's been politics and mechanization.

They will have to decide on an engine supplier, so even though it says GM and Cadillac, it won't have a GM or Cadillac engine in it.

At least not initially, but I also think it's interesting that it's starting at same season 2026, not only will there be a new team on the grid, an 11th team on the grid.

Besides that, that means two more spaces open up for drivers for Formula One, but it's also, if I'm reading correctly,

I think that's the first year that Red Bull is going to Ford as a supplier of their engine. So 2026 is going to be a very interesting F1 season.

Audi takes over the sour team. I think so. I think so. It's going to be a lot of changes, but Ford and GM will both be represented on the F1 grid and there will be two more F1 drivers in the world.

Well, I just read crazy. Mario Andredi has been named to serve as a director on the team's board in a non executive role.

He was the 1978 F1 world champion. Why doesn't he become one of the drivers? That would make it interesting to watch.

We've got the youngest and the oldest drivers on the F1 grid. That's funny. John Glenn went back to space in his 80s.

Yes. They sent William Shatner to space at a 90 years old. I mean, let's push the boundaries.

Mario is driving a car. Can you imagine that would get eyeballs?

Oh my gosh. Have you ever seen, I'm sure you have. We've all seen the video of where they show F1 drivers doing the F1 specific training,

where they turn the heavy weighted steering wheel. They pull with their neck. It's crazy stuff.

Can you imagine an 80 year old man doing the pull with the neck thing?

It's like 83, 84. The head pop right off. I can't. I don't think that's going to go well, but I like the idea.

I mean, amazing. Who wouldn't watch? There's concepts from the 2024 LA Auto Show.

And I'm wondering before we dive in, we've been noting that shows like this feel thinner and thinner.

They kind of feel like they're last few years if they've been hard. And it's the past.

And it seems like the LA Auto Show is like SEMA without all the aftermarket stuff.

It's like all the debuts, like, hey, cool new concept. But what I did note about almost every company there,

I'll say, that they're embracing the off-roading, the overlanding thing.

It's a thing, it's bad. It's part of people's lifestyles. Well, speaking of which, the Kia Weekender concept.

It's a van.

Everything's better when you take the vowels out.

Yeah, take the vowels out and you've got yourself a cool new Internet-y word.

They are embracing it. It looks fantastic. It's a freaking van.

You know what's great? Vowels. I'm just going to put it out there. I'm going to be the Vowels and Keys.

Bring back the Vowels and Keys. Anyway, I knew this is fairly by old man's day under his lawn.

In my day, we had Vowels and Keys. Bring them back.

Oh my gosh. But I'm kind of curious as to why Volkswagen has not embraced the overlanding thing like every other company.

With the ID buzz. What a cool thing to turn the buzz into an off-roader now.

Yeah, more buzz for it.

Yes.

Okay, sorry. Sorry, sorry.

Kia also dropped the vowels on their 2026 EV9 adventure. It looks like an adventure.

But it's adventure concept. Also, really cool.

Take out the vowels.

Oh, stop it.

We've got a new one. It has more.

We've got a new 2026 Genesis GV70. The updates look quite fresh.

I really love the G70.

And another Subaru that you can't have, and won't be built, is the Subaru Project Midnight.

Subaru, we build things that you can't have. We'll never build, and it's just one.

So, here you go. It's for car show purposes only.

We do concept cars that you really want while we build cars where you go.

That's what the final product looks like.

That's super build is amazing thing.

It really is amazing. I agree.

No, we're not going to do that.

You know, actually, I have to say that the one that intrigues me out of the show,

because it's been a very either EV or SUV heavy show for the last few years.

But one is that actually got announced that I'm intrigued by is the new Acura ADX,

their little SUV.

Yeah.

It's built on the HRV platform from Honda.

We like the HRV, but the problem with the HRV when we drove it is it was underpowered.

It's fine, but it's underpowered.

But this has a 1.5 liter turbo out of the Integra, and it has all-wheel drive.

I think this is a score for Acura.

A little tiny, decent looking SUV.

We know these things sell.

This is the one that looks like an overrated hatch.

I mean, they all do.

That's because they are.

Exactly.

The HRV is a success.

I think this is a good evolution of the HRV.

It gives a bottom in smaller SUV to Acura.

I think it makes sense.

I like everything about what I'm seeing in this as far as real cars to come from the show.

Yeah, I agree. That's way up there.

Of course, we are not at the show.

So we are just looking at the concepts from afar, just like you are.

However, when we are at the show, we move pretty fast.

And it seems like there's things that like last year's show, the GTD concept Mustang.

You know, we're waiting for that to arrive, finally.

Yeah, yeah.

We saw that being tested at the ring when we were there.

We saw that far off doing the manufactured test days.

And it's nice for companies to have concepts, but I think they need to follow through more, especially with the overlanding.

That is a genuine market with a lot of opportunity.

A lot of money to be made.

I think companies need to embrace that on the lifestyle side of things.

Yeah.

And need to embrace racing and sports cars as the performance driving kind of side of the business.

Yeah, this is what I wonder about the overlanding.

Is are we leaning even further down the SUV road into stuff that really, really won't be used?

I just wonder how big the market is.

Maybe, but at least it refines it to a purpose.

Because right now SUVs are just sort of like bland.

They're blobs and they're tall and they hold a lot of stuff.

Okay, fair.

But this really refines the concept.

I feel like even if you're not using it for what it's intended to know that you could, it's really exciting.

All the GT3s out there, just to know that you could win a race.

Are you going to?

Well, no, but I have it.

But I have the GT3 RS, which is the fastest one.

Yes, but you drive to work.

It's in the category of Bugatti's.

It is.

It's the fastest thing.

Well, have you driven? Nope.

Well, but at least the Bugatti's nice to be in.

The GT3 RS, driving through the pit, is not that fun.

The GT3 RS, going for coffee.

Not the car you should have chosen out of the Porsche lineup.

I'm putting it out there.

Take it out there.

There's like a 911.

Awesome.

Really, really good.

24 other versions and I have to choose from them.

We'll be coming back.

So, Baskin Robbins closes and Porsche is now offering that many in 911s.

I get it.

That's good.

Coming up, coming events, December 7th and 8th, 2024 at Laguna Seca.

This is our season closer for Northern California.

We will be there in the afternoon of December 7th.

That's a Saturday, 2024.

We're looking forward to being there.

So, if you are in the area, sign up.

It's a two-day event, but Todd and I will only be there on that Saturday.

But hooked on driving.com for all of the upcoming events.

And our schedule is being rolled out too for 2025.

Last item of business is blip shift.

And if you go to the partner stores under the shop tab,

you can scroll down to everyday driver and there is currently everyday exotic too.

It's the blue version of the Amira.

It is.

Yes, it's the very cool Seneca Blue version of the Amira shirt.

I actually was just looking at a video today.

I was actually editing for Christmas's video.

Because Thanksgiving's is done.

We're worried about you and your family.

That's really what's going on.

But in the Christmas video, I'm wearing the red one that kind of matches my car.

This is the Seneca Blue and it's a great looking shirt.

And I just finished selling the latest version of I Like Big Wings and I Cannot Lie.

And I have never done this and I feel like I should do this.

But you know what?

Shout out to our friends at blip shift who write descriptions for all of these great shirts.

Yes.

I'm going to read it as a white guy, but I have to read the description of the I Like Big Wings and I Cannot Lie.

You're all hearings are mixed a lot in your head right now.

So just travel along with me as I read the following.

I like big arrow and I cannot lie.

You touring brothers can't deny that when a three walks in with an itty bitty weight and a swan neck in your face, you get stoot guard.

Thank you, blip shift.

We're glad to partner with you on all of our shirts and they have the everyday driver logo in the back.

And it's cool every now and then I'll be in a situation where somebody has the everyday driver logo on the back.

And they bought it because it's a cool shirt.

And then they realize there's a whole show behind it which is really cool.

We love partnering with them.

The Hyundai Getaway sales event is on now with awesome deals on their most popular models.

Including adventure ready SUVs like the Hyundai Santa Fe and Santa Fe Hybrid.

There's also the stylish Elantra pack with the latest tech or go electric with the IONIQ 5 or IONIQ 6.

Visit HyundaiUSA.com or call 562-314-4603 for more details.

When you're cleaning your car after a summer of hard driving, be sure to wash in a cool shady spot

and use Griot's garage brilliant finish foaming sprayer with snow foam.

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Or if you've been tracking your car, track spray removes rubber streaks that always happen.

The rubber smears and tire chunks come off really easy as soon as you use the track spray.

Griot's offers wash and detail kits which make it easy to get the right products together,

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That's GRI OTS. Get out there, drive your car, wash your car and have fun on your garage.

Enjoy the finest quality car care products you can buy at griot's garage.com.

OK, Sukey A is writing to us asking about the best third car for today's topic Tuesday.

Sukey has been a long time listener and viewer of the podcast and videos.

Really appreciate, Sukey. Thank you so much.

He's reaching out to get our thoughts on the idea for a third car.

He's a believer in owning two vehicles, a dedicated fun car and a practical daily.

This is a great recipe.

Currently, he drives an 08 Mazda MX-5.

It's manual, power retractable, hard top, and a 2015 Lexus RX-350 all-wheel drive.

So the egg and a third of us.

True.

It's fun.

It's going to run forever.

2015 RX-350 is going to run until the earth stops spinning and beyond.

But that is a third gym that's in Semiata with the power retractable hard top.

Very cool car for sure.

So this combination of two cars has worked out well for him.

But he's been increasingly tempted to add a third car.

A rear-wheel drive hard top dedicated to fun without any practical considerations.

OK.

Now recently he started to view his driving simulator as the third car.

A kind of third car, he says.

With that perspective, he might consider his next purchase as his fourth vehicle.

Huh.

OK.

He's been using a driving simulator for about five years.

And his current setup includes VR, a direct drive wheel, shift to our handbrake and pedals,

which allows him to watch driving technique videos and then practice immediately on the simulator.

As a matter of fact, he learned to drift his MX-5 in real life after eight months of sim practice.

That's amazing.

Huge.

That's amazing.

He has a heck of a setup though if you read through that.

He does.

Yeah.

When he compares the time and money involved in real life driving events to the cost of a simulator,

typically around four or five grand from mid to high end setup, it seems like a bargain.

The opportunities in sim racing are limitless from learning to drift to racing his favorite

90s JDM cars or driving priceless classics, he says.

And in real life, factors like time, budget, and safety often lead to many compromises.

Sure.

Yeah.

He thinks the advancements in racing sim and VR tech could be a game changer for many car enthusiasts.

But while the real life driving experience is invaluable and irreplaceable, he thinks there's

such a benefit in balancing real life driving and sim racing.

And as tech continues to improve, it makes more and more sense to supplement real life driving

with racing simulators.

What does our take on this?

Okay.

Thank you for writing because we have touched on driving sims and there's a wide spectrum of opinions

out there.

We have, I think, differing opinions, but we haven't really gone in depth for a topic Tuesday.

I appreciate that you are looking at a sim as your third car.

I've never heard it related like that before.

That's fascinating.

Wait, look at it.

I totally agree.

Yeah.

I'm intrigued by that.

You have an endless garage as a result too, which is fascinating.

Oh, yeah.

I mean, it's your third car, but it's everything you've named.

It's every third car out there.

And I'll start off, Kaseuki, with my own opinion.

And, you know, we have hooked on driving to do the real thing.

And I think there's no replacement for the real thing.

For all the simulators I tried, I guess maybe I haven't tried a good enough simulator

up to this point because for all the times that you and I have been on track in a variety of cars,

I know pretty much what that is going to feel like when I start to turn in.

And I have yet to feel.

I know there's no feel, but I have yet to have a mapping that simulates what I know the car should be able to do.

And so when I bring my track driving technique to that sim, I always crash.

Oops.

And I have to completely readjust everything about my driving style that I would never use on a real track

to then be successful in a sim.

And then I am and then I can get around the track and I can turn a decent lap time.

But I also know that Max Verstappen uses sims to great effect.

Not only is he now that everyone rolled champ again.

Yep.

Spoiler alert.

I just spoil it for you.

But you probably knew that already anyway.

Not a surprise.

He uses sims and he's really good at it.

Is the difference only cost?

Is it only the money spent on the sim?

Is it only the gear?

Because most of the stuff that I've tried, that's not what a car feels like.

That's not what any car feels like.

And then you can change all the settings and change the tires and the power output and you can mod it endlessly.

Sure.

But even the stock versions of those cars are like, really?

That's not what a GR86 would feel like.

And we've tracked that GR86 quite a lot.

I feel like I can understand when you turn in, this is a nimble car.

It's designed for track.

You're going to turn in and I'm expecting this from the sim and it just doesn't do it.

You're right.

You and I do disagree.

But I knew this already.

And so I have completely disavowed racing sims.

I've just ignored them because I don't get the same pleasure from them.

I don't get the same response.

I get frustrated easily and then I go to a real track and like,

yeah, because it's real.

And I know what the car is going to do and I respond appropriately.

And that's how I get better because it's actually the real thing.

There's also a disconnect.

There's the verstappens of the world that are great at racing and great at sim.

But there's also the disconnect who, you know, you might be good at track, but terrible at sim or really great at sim.

But then on an actual track, things aren't translating too well.

All of the above is true.

I do agree with that.

Here's the thing.

I feel less of a frustrated disconnect that you do on these.

Okay.

I've played a lot of Gran Turismo and Project Cars and a set of course on these kind of things.

Now, you and I have never stepped up to a big, heavy-duty racing sim and something like I racing.

And I know that when you step into that, there are a lot of people that use it like crazy and use it interchangeably

to keep their skills honed for actual track driving.

Kassuki, you're talking about $4,000 to $5,000 for a setup.

That's a lot of money for a video game.

Put it like that, okay?

Yes.

I'm not saying that I can't believe you did that.

I can believe you did that, but I'm going to go down a tangent and then I'm going to come back.

If you're going to have that level of sim, the person you live with needs to be on board.

That could be a roommate.

That could be a significant other.

Wife, kids, whatever.

But that's a lot of money to put into something that the person you live with,

not you, is going to view as for your video game.

That's good.

I have a PS Mini.

I have a 3, 4, and a 5 because they keep coming up with new ones that I have a son.

So anyway, I have a PS4 and I have a play seat racing seat with a wheel, okay?

All of that together.

If I went out, I didn't buy it all at once.

But all of that together, I'm just running the math in my head,

is roughly somewhere in the neighborhood of 1,200 bucks.

For the wheel, for the chair, for the gaming system.

Didn't even count the television.

And that feels like I'm pushing the edges.

I got to store the chair in the house somewhere and my wife has to put up with it.

Let's be honest, because it's not a chair that you want as an additive to any room.

It's not.

It's awesome, but it's not an additive to your room.

And then how much could you spend on a wheel?

Well, a lot more than that.

So this is the first hurdle to get over.

You've got to get over whoever you live with has to be okay with it.

And if you live alone, and you want to spend that money on that,

awesome.

I mean, look, there's people with golf simulators in their room.

I get it.

This is not.

There's still swinging an actual club with an actual ball.

True.

It's not a unique reality.

But the other thing I want to say is, I think there is helpfulness here for any level of sim racing,

even all the way down to using the sticks, even though the sticks are a whole other level of disconnection, okay?

Because I think you can start to understand where your eyes need to be.

But the problem is, ultimately what we're talking about,

this is no different in my mind than training for a marathon on a treadmill or learning to rock climbing a gym.

Both of those things will put you in the shape and the awareness to go out and do the actual activity in the actual place it was presented.

But there's so much extra stuff that shows up the day you really show up to really climb that rock.

And you're outside and there's wind and the holds aren't marked for you.

It's freezing cold.

All of the above.

Yes, suddenly.

That dog's barking and I didn't know there'd be a nest there and that kind of stuff happens.

Or I'm going to run a marathon now on city streets with 100 other people I've never met.

And the weather is a fact.

And I'm not saying you could not train for a marathon on a treadmill and go run a marathon.

And you've never run outside prior.

I have no doubt in my mind that you would be of the physical capability to do it.

But there's a whole different mental layer that exists when you go do it for real.

And the lack of consequence on the sim and that kind of stuff.

Because I agree with you that you are experiencing all kinds of amazing things.

And it sounds like you're sim, especially with VR and all that.

It's probably another level of involvement beyond the stuff Paul and I have done.

And I think there is great value in it.

But I feel like every time we go to this is the best example I've got.

Every time we go to the ring, I like the ring more on the sim.

It doesn't work the other way.

I can't drive the ring between events and like the ring more and more.

I'm like maintaining my visual awareness and I'm drawing back on what I know it really feels like.

But then when we go to the ring and I have back on the sim, I like the sim a lot more.

I don't like it more than the ring being there in person saying I like it more than I did prior.

After you've gone because all of the awareness is in my body.

Yeah.

And now I like the sim more.

I think it is a great tool for learning.

I think it is a great thing for training in the same way as the climbing in the rock gym or running on the treadmill.

But it's not entirely there.

And I want you to have real life experience because there are those real consequences that add a whole other layer of fun.

And personal gain.

Just life experience.

Life experience.

You're helping me distill my thoughts because I want you to hear audience in no way am I against sims.

And I see a lot of pro racing drives.

A lot of amateur drivers do really well on sims and they do really well on track.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

What is it that I'm missing?

I am open to eye racing.

I'm open to trying higher in sims.

The question is, how much do you have to spend?

It's like the price of fun for sims.

How much do you have to spend to actually get the connection that you know?

That's how a car feels on track because I've been on that track and I've driven a car and I've chosen the exact same car in the sim.

And whoa, that is disconnected.

I'm having to totally change my driving experience because we see plenty of people who they've driven the ring and they jump on the sim to show you how it's done.

And they crash in 30 seconds.

What happened?

Is it the consequence free environment that you've suddenly entered where your brain shuts off and you realize,

oh yeah, I'm not feeling and smelling and the elevation change and the attitude of the car.

I mean, do you have to spend $30,000 to get the hydraulic actuators that still don't feel like what an actual car feels like on track?

So I am open to it.

I want to find the sweet spot.

I do. I would love to do it more.

I just, I guess I haven't found it and the real thing does it for me more than actual Sims.

But I see so many people having so much fun. I think, what am I missing?

I want to do that on the sim.

You know, for those cold snowy months, when you're stuck inside and you can't go to a track day, but there's no replacement in my mind for a track day.

You cannot replace that experience just doing the simulation.

So I guess the question to all of us is how much do you have to spend and how much you're tolerating to spend to...

Okay, I've had to adjust my driving style and I know this isn't the real thing, but at least I'm willing to spend a few dollars to have that availability.

Interesting. What's the balance here? What's the price of Sim?

You know, the price of Sim is good. I like that.

You know, it's also dawning on me something that's happened a few times and I don't typically like driving games that aren't tracking games.

I'm going to drive down a canyon road and a game and I'm just like, you know, I just... I'm not connecting with this at all.

That feels so disconnected from the real thing. Even if it's a game that's kind of arcade-like, I'm like, yeah, but see...

The benefit, the joy that I get out of taking a really great mountain road.

None of that translates from a Sim.

You give me a great mountain road on a Sim and I'm just like, you know, no.

Going in and refining the track process of, okay, I don't get turned three.

That I feel like I can get some benefit from.

I can back up and reset it and do it over and over and over and over and about 30 seconds.

Yes, exactly. I can keep working, turn three and be like, what on earth happened there?

Because that part of the experience, the grandeur of the experience, it isn't as important on the track.

But when you're doing the mountain road, it's key.

So I want you to actually... I want you to find something else to drive that is more fun.

But what I find interesting is you have a 2008 Mazda MX-5 power-attractable hardtop.

And then you're talking about a rear-wheel drive hardtop without any practical considerations.

I kind of want you to get a grand tour.

I don't want you to get something.

That's what the Mazda Miata is.

I don't want you to get more hardcore than the Miata.

I kind of want you to get something that's more grand tour to give you a third experience

because you've got the light, chuckable thing that can also be convertible.

You've got the Lexus egg.

Where's the grand touring car in the middle?

That's the car, I think it would be interesting for you.

You're kind of lean in hardcore and I think that's what the SIM can do for you.

The SIM can be your hardcore car.

You're no holds barred, loud, rattly. That can be the SIM.

What's your V12 GT car?

Because that's a different experience entirely.

That is just... I want to drive cross-country down a gorgeous road at sunset

because I'm glad to be here.

With my vanquish.

V12.

Yes, whatever.

I am in no way saying that SIM doesn't have its place

because it is a valuable tool.

I'm just saying that I feel like the reward is greater

when you have conquered the day on track or on a canyon road.

Yes.

And you're dealing with all those extraneous things that a SIM cannot involve you with.

Birds chirping a little bit of moisture on the ground.

The sight lines aren't as great as they could be because there's some clouds

and you've got a great, still got a great canyon day.

You've got a track day and you've accomplished it.

I feel like the reward after doing the real thing is still greater than the reward of

I just beat my best time on the SIM.

Okay, great.

Cool.

But I don't feel like the euphoria is as great as doing it in real life

with knowing that you set up the car properly.

You've paid attention to your tires.

You understand what's going on with the systems and the brakes

because it's also cold.

It's just numbers.

It's just code making it clinical for you.

So the assumption is there where all those assumptions go away when you're doing the real thing.

What if I lose my brakes on this real hard braking zone?

Yeah, yeah.

The SIM doesn't actually like surprise.

He lost your brakes.

Bam!

No more resets.

We're kicking you off for the day.

Wait, what?

Yeah, that's interesting.

Real consequences in the SIM would be fascinating.

All right, I get it.

Yeah, I just feel like the rewards are greater and that's what I love personally.

But I am in no way opposed to SIM.

I just want to know how much do I have to spend?

What's the sweet spot where it finally connects?

That's what a car feels like.

Then will it ever or is it only the F1 simulators

where it's like, okay, we spend enough money

so it's exactly like the real car in the exact track.

How much do you have to spend?

He discovered the show from the FRS series.

Love that.

That's great.

He is hoping we can set him straight, preferably with a straight six.

Okay.

He currently drives 2011 G37 sedan

with the six-speed manual and 157,000 miles.

Okay.

It really likes the car except for the fact that the engine is a bit harsh.

It's not something you would have expected to even notice before owning it.

And he's ready for an automatic for both commuting and for fun.

Hunter is currently spends his time about 50% in the office

and 50% about work from home.

So not a lot of commuting, about 20 miles round trip.

But it's enough that he wants something reasonably comfortable.

His minister of finance owns a 2016 CX-9.

It can handle baby duty as long as the second car is an automatic.

She can take that if needed.

Okay.

And Hunter won't need space beyond a solo grocery trip and date nights.

So meaning his car can be a two-seat?

Yeah, which is good.

Okay, cool.

He's looking for a company and quiet car for commuting

and something lively for weekend driving.

He would like it to be a modicum faster than the G37.

Okay.

He can imagine comparable speed with a good automatic

is going to outperform him with the six speed anyway.

Drive wheels and engine and pretty much anything else is all negotiable.

The car that he really wants is the early M240, preferably with X-Drive.

Okay.

He wants to experience a straight six and more specifically the B58 engine.

It is a good engine for sure.

Yeah.

Goodbye, Supereth.

Not for his budget.

The problem is he thinks that $24,000, which is what he's finding for the M240,

is a bit too pricey.

So he looked down at the M235 but he sees them at around $20,000

and he's very worried you'd been on the online.

That he's going to have to fork out for a water pump as soon as he buys one of those.

So he says at that point it's not even a discount.

So he did find one on KSL, which was one of our local sales areas here.

He found one for $14,000 with 130,000 miles.

But he doesn't know that he trusts or wants the N55 engine.

That's right, we're going to BMW engine codes.

The N55 engine as much as he really wants that B58.

It's a BMW, so maybe.

So then he goes further down the two series line up trying to find that alignment of budget and capability.

And he does find the 228i, which I've talked up many times as when you get it properly specced

that it's a surprisingly fun car.

But he said, you know, you've now lost the straight six.

And he had a turboed Miata.

He doesn't know that he wants a turboed four.

But his Miata was a 1994.

He bought it without any idea of how bad an idea it was for him to have done so.

And it cost him $10,000 extra dollars trying to get it running right by the time he sold it.

So the idea of buying another four cylinder turbo horrifies him by the way you got the wrong one, which is why.

But anyway, you know what kind of sim you could have bought for 10 grand just kidding.

Clearly it happened in the old time with that 928 bill.

You know what you could have bought for the money spent?

That's it.

Don't do that thinking.

Never get out the calculator and compare prices.

You're on the losing end.

Yes, I know.

Anyway, he's also concerned that the 4352 door he can find it cheaper.

But he's worried about that just feeling large.

So what are we thinking?

And then there's this twist at the end from Hunter.

We've had this whole conversation about I really want an engine that's a straight six that's smooth.

I want a faster experience than what I've had.

He's really just drilled down on the BMW lineup.

And the last sentence is try to get a Mustang.

I mean, 2011, 2014, I could just get one of those with the coyote engine.

I'm going, wait a minute.

Wait, now we're buying a coyote V8.

He said, you know, I could get one.

Hunter, no, you don't have to just get a Mustang.

But I do want to unpack this further.

It's great stuff.

Wow, Hunter, thank you for writing.

Really appreciate it.

I think you've sold yourself on the BMW despite the potential looming problems.

I think you're already there.

I think you're just thrown out the Mustang just as a red herring or something.

He's aware that he can get a ton of them for his budget.

That's what he's wearing.

Yeah, no disrespect to the 2011 to 2014 Mustang with the coyote engine.

Yeah, it's got the live rear axle as he notes here in his email.

I think you'll be bored of it pretty quickly.

I don't hear any of this like you're aspiring to a Mustang.

I don't know that, but I think you'd be better off with the BMW.

I think that's more of a car.

It's more of a, all right, it's not the performance, kind of hot rod thing.

It's just, it's just car.

We can use, but hey, it's still going to be fun.

It's still going to handle really well.

That's just my personal take.

You know, I was thinking of a third option, which would be something from Acura,

like a TL or TLX for your budget.

Something like that.

They're reliable.

They're fun.

They're fun enough.

And it fits your budget.

I think what you're going to have to come to is the conclusion of how much fun do I want to spend

or can I justify spending?

Because I read your email, I think, get an inexpensive Z4.

You've got a straight six.

Sure.

That's good.

Real drive.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's a BMW.

It's going to run yours, Ran.

Yeah.

Yours was an O4.

Yes, mine was an O4.

Here's the thing.

For his $25,000 budget, you can have so many eyes.

You can always get two of them.

You could get so many.

Well, here's the thing.

What's the newest one you can get with a straight six?

I think you'd like that car more than the lesser versions of the two series that you're eyeing.

I do too, but it doesn't fit the economical functional part of his email.

It doesn't, but you've also said you really only need two seats.

I hadn't actually gone to the Z4, but he keeps coming.

He had this comment here where he said, doesn't need space beyond a solo grocery trip or date nights.

That's a two seat experience.

That's a Z4.

Real drive.

The Z4 is better.

That is cool.

Whether tires on it.

Yeah.

Drive it year round.

Put your summer performance tires on it when you want to go up in the canyons and you saw.

Then you've got a Z4 from maybe half the price.

Spend 20 and you've got a brilliant straight six.

You can get a power retractable hardtop.

One of those.

That's kind of money.

If you looked for the automatic, it's probably not as much.

I have done the research, but I'm guessing it might not cost as much.

That's the funny thing about the Z4 is they do not hang on to their value.

They plummet faster than other BMWs around them.

That's a great call.

And the automatic version of it.

Yeah, the straight six, the Z4.

I had not gone there, but I'm backing your play.

It's very good.

I would prefer that over the Mustang.

Mustang?

Cool enough, but I don't think it would quite fit everything you're wanting it to do.

Well, I think the interesting twist here is that the reason Hunter rode in ultimately is because

he doesn't like the engine of his G37 enough.

He said it feels a bit harsh.

Now, that is a beloved engine.

That's also the engine out of the 350Z.

Yeah.

Okay, it's a beloved engine.

That VR, people love it.

I'm wondering what about it is harsh.

Is it just the V6 nature?

Is it the sound?

What about it is annoying you?

I'm just wondering that because...

Are your engine mounts bad?

Well, but especially because you go Mustang at the end.

Okay?

And I don't think...

And I like V8s.

I like Ford V8s.

I like Chevy V8s, but I don't think of V8s as a refined engine experience.

No.

They have natural just violence to them.

You sit still at the light and a good V8 in the car just rumbles.

So you're talking about you don't want harshness, but you pivoted at the end to Mustang.

And I went really?

So that confuses me a little bit.

That makes me think if you really are looking at Mustangs,

you need to drive an equivalent Camaro

and drive an equivalent Corvette.

Why aren't you driving a Corvette?

That's interesting.

You can do two seats.

You've got plenty of space for a garage.

I mean, for a grocery run.

You've got a decent trunk if you want to do a grocery run and have a date night.

It'd be an awesome car to take in the canyons in the summer.

You could get yourself a really nice C6

and maybe find a deal on a C7 for less than $25,000 on a Corvette.

That's a great idea.

I think especially when you're buying them auto.

So at that point, you're going to be able to get a deal on them.

I think a Corvette is a good one.

And then I just went down probably the wrong place, Hunter.

But I went down a rabbit trail pursuing your worried about how harsh the engine feels.

And what you've set your sights on is if I get a straight six,

I'm going to enjoy a smooth engine delivery and I went, I can top you.

Hunter, here's my wild card for you.

Spend half your budget and get a very, very nice Mazda RX-8.

That's the smooth driving experience you're looking for.

You're looking for an engine that doesn't rattle things that is super nice and not harsh.

That's the Mazda RX-8.

Now, that's interesting.

Wow.

Now a rotary owner, they require different care and feeding.

It doesn't mean they're bad, even though lots of people have had bad engine issues.

There are lots of people who, well, yeah, I'm on my third engine, 150,000 miles.

Those stories exist.

It's not going to cost more than your children.

Totally.

I'm not going to pretend that that isn't the thing.

But I also know there are those owners that have done the proper care and feeding of their rotary.

One of the things they hate is tiny trips.

We work from home and you go out for groceries, date nights or commuting.

As long as you're going to run the car a little bit, get it up to temp, run it for real, wind it out.

These are the things I know and a little bit of research I've done on rotary.

So if you are the proper rotary owner and you buy one from someone that was a proper rotary owner,

half your budget gets you a really nice RX-8.

I'm in full wild card Tera Cortori because I just followed the rabbit trail of smooth engine.

And if you want one, that's a rotary.

It's not even a straight six, it's a rotary.

Fascinating.

All right, Hunter, you've got some choices to make.

I still think you're leaning towards BMW.

You've got some shop and a do.

Wishing you all the best shopautotempest.com slash every day.

When you're looking for your dream car and let us know what you end up buying,

send us your emails for topic Tuesdays, car conclusions and most of all those car debates.

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So it's funny to me.

We post these pictures, Paul does all these pictures on our social media account on Facebook and Instagram

when we're going to do a podcast recording, we ask you guys for questions.

And what I find fascinating is the complete shift of engagement, depending upon the kind of photos.

And we've proven yet again, and thank you guys, that everybody likes sports cars.

We post these two sports cars coming out on Thursday, the MX-5 RF versus the Z4 manual.

And the comment sections have exploded.

We probably won't get all of these covered, but this is really interesting.

Daniel on Facebook asks, what interior color is our favorite?

What interior color is a deal breaker?

Like this a lot.

Interior color for me that is my favorite.

I really like a nice tan.

Now it depends on the exterior color of the car, but a really nice tan or caramel.

That's just a really cool color for me.

But deal breaker, I have one.

Blue.

I hate blue interiors.

Like heavy blue.

Yours is, I mean, I'm talking about, there's blue accents on more events.

That's blue accents are different.

I'm talking about the S2000s that were blue exterior and blue interior.

We had a GV70 Genesis that was a gorgeous red exterior.

And the entire interior was blue leather.

And I was like, what happened here?

That was sort of like just two teams aren't talking to each other.

I'm talking like an all blue interior, blue leather, blue door panels.

It's like, nope, I'm sorry, that's not working for me.

Funny.

On Instagram, our friend, Akum asks for our thoughts on the Alpine 8290.

I saw this.

Can it become the new electric fiesta ST with its 1497 kilograms.

It's considered light for an EV and in the same region as an Alontera Ant or a Focus RS.

Is this weight still a factor?

Now that BMW has proven with a new M5, it's possible to have heavy weight and good dynamics

if you throw it off German engineering at it.

Akum is in Germany and we see him most every time we visit there for our adventures and trips there.

Akum really appreciate the question.

I dug more into the Alpine so that is the hot version of the Renault 5 Supermini.

It's an all EV car and I feel like what they should have done, maybe they will,

and that is make it what the Hyundai Ionic 5N has become.

Okay, sure.

That seems like a different car in consumers' minds now.

That seems like you can do a performance EV that is involving an actually kind of fun to drive.

Also heard there's kind of a four month backup on those getting too extra customers right now.

But after driving the Ionic 5N, the I5N, I think there's a market there.

And I think if you're going to do a hot hatch EV, that should be the benchmark.

That should be everything you put that towards.

Because until battery technology changes the range of that tiny little car,

there's no point for any of us consumers to expect long range out of a tiny little fun hot hatch.

Sure, yeah.

So let's see a 236 mile range from 52 kilowatt hour battery,

100 kilowatts of DC fast charging so that's 15 to 80% in 30 minutes, which is decent.

But it still seems like it's positioned as a city commuter runabout when it needs to at least have the hot version of it.

Also, Akam, I want to talk real quickly about this weight reality.

This is the thing that EVs have done.

EVs are so powerful with instant torque that the manufacturers are just throwing weight out as a concern.

And BMW is proving it others are as well.

Modern technology is hiding the weight.

Until it all shows up.

It is amazing how often you can drive a really heavy car now,

and you just are like, well, this doesn't seem nearly as heavy as the number says,

until you get it in the wrong corner at the wrong moment and you realize

this is a boat.

At some point, at some point in any heavy car, physics rears its head and waves it you would just goes,

hello, this is really heavy because there are limits to all these things.

It is amazing how much electrics have just made us not worry about it.

And let's be honest, the new M5 is a hybrid and it gets away with it.

I totally get it.

And I know that BMW's doing great things or new M2 astonishes with how little it feels like it weighs compared to what it does.

But you get in a light car and you go, oh, this feels fundamentally different.

So weight still matters.

David on Facebook is asking a question that I relate to a lot.

He says, do we as enthusiasts minimize the spectrum of pain for our significant others?

He has a BRZ that he loves but his wife has now refused to ride in it due to the fact that the passenger seat isn't height adjustable

and she gets nauseous because she's sitting too low.

Friends have just said to her, we'll get her.

A pillow to sit on.

But he's debating with himself about should he just get rid of it?

Is he being selfish to have a car like this?

Now I've had to get pillows or inserts for my wife in some of our cars.

And it has changed things for her.

Is she willing to be tolerant enough, your wife, David?

Is she willing to be tolerant enough to have a little insert for the seat to get past it?

Or is that a deal breaker?

But these are big conversations that you have to have.

If you have multiple cars in your garage, or let's just say you have two cars.

You and your wife, David, have two cars.

And she won't drive or ride in one of them?

Yeah, it's probably time to consider that car needs to go because now it doesn't even fill its need of being second car.

Because one of you won't drive at a ride in it.

So that is a big deal.

It is an issue.

We as enthusiasts and I'm pointing the fingers all at me, we do want to discount it.

Oh, you'll get used to it.

Oh, it's a great car.

You're going to like it.

But if you're significant.

Like it or else.

But if you're significant, others can't connect with the car.

You have to take a serious question about, is it worth the time, money, and hassle of having it at all?

And that's a person by person choice.

But it is a thing.

I will say there are purpose-built inserts you can get to help you with some seats.

They're not just a random pillow.

Like I got one for the Elise that, I mean, pardon me, the Amira that works pretty well.

But it depends on the person, the body type, and the seat.

On Instagram, Bellaby 1029 says that we always talk about the lack of color for cars nowadays.

Continuing Daniel's theme about the interior color, looks switched to the exterior.

Bellaby got to thinking about the perception of colors.

Budget subcompacts, like the Kia Soul and Honda Fit, are some of the only skidled colored cars

they'll seize besides the super high-end crazy stuff like GT Porsche's and Lamborghinis.

Is there a price range where color is seen as cheap?

I feel like there has been for a long time in the exotic car realm where it's just been shades of gray.

It's been all kinds of very subtle things.

And then as soon as a design comes out and you see a hot color, whoa!

Well, you know it's expensive.

You know that land was expensive because it's a Lamborghini.

But now the color, it doesn't detract from the price.

That green, that orange doesn't seem to make it seem any less expensive.

The McLaren's and the Tiffany Blues and the Papaya Orange doesn't seem like it's a lesser car or a cheaper car.

Now let's apply those colors to something inexpensive like you said, Bella.

I don't know that it cheapens it necessarily.

It just gives it a different perception.

The color says sporty, or it says performance, or it says luxury.

But cheap, is there a color that says this is a cheap car?

I've seen very expensive cars painted white, the cheapest color out there because it has no pigment in it.

But yet it's still a high-end expensive vehicle.

All the GT Porsches, all the racing cars are white just because you're going to sticker it up or wrap it up.

It's interesting.

I think it's a perception issue we're dealing with here, Bella.

Because the cheap cars you're talking about are generally bought by people that are younger.

Because they don't have a ton of money.

And then the people that buy the hyper-exotics have gotten so much money that they've reached the look at me part of their life.

And in the middle, everybody else is just trying to be very mature and demure.

Adult.

I'm trying to be an adult.

Now I used to have a, every panel was a different color gulf.

And now I don't, now I have a Mercedes and it's in black.

But if I get crazy money later, I'm going to buy a purple Lambo because I want you to look at me because I'm rich now.

There's this middle ground where we're all supposed to be acting like adults.

I'd never have it.

And as a result, we all want to be very demure with our color choices.

Because this is the thing I find so insane.

We're also worried about what is the resale value of my car?

And if I get it in yellow, will anyone else buy it?

My question is, do you want to buy it?

Do you want it in yellow?

When you're young enough to be buying the crazy hot hatch, you don't care what anybody else thinks.

And when you're rich enough to be buying the crazy exotic, you don't care what anybody else thinks.

But in the middle, we're in the matrix.

We're very worried about what the neighbors think.

And so we can't get crazy colors and manufacturers don't offer them because it says, look at me, not I've been absorbed.

That's my take.

And every time I sit at a stop light, just seeing white black, gray, white, black, gray, white, black, gray, I just think everyone here was once a child.

And used to have a crazy imagination.

And now we're all commuter drones.

I guess only on SUVs.

But you know what?

I take that back because the Cadillac Escalade V series in red, fantastic.

It looks great.

Yeah.

It says performance.

It doesn't say cheapness.

It doesn't say that exhaust says look at me, though.

We're back in to look at me.

Yeah.

You don't start that at high.

Well, you put a sophisticated neutral color on a GR86.

It only actually kind of bumps the price up in my mind.

Yeah.

But you put a highly saturated paint right out of the tube.

Full saturation color on a Lambo or McLaren or Ferrari.

It's still very expensive.

Yeah.

You've got a bright, hot, flashy color.

But it still seems like an expensive car.

And I know the paint is probably paid extra for that.

Yeah.

Probably.

Yeah.

I think the color definitely gives you the perception of the range of what the car is.

But I don't think it's a detriment necessarily to the car.

I think it can make it look interesting.

I had a boat discussion long ago with a co-worker.

Yeah.

Nobody paints their yacht or does the gel coat of a yacht in black.

There's very few.

You've heard of them.

There's you.

And they always make press when they happen.

They do.

It's so rare.

Yeah.

Athlete or something like that.

You wonder, like, how are they going to resell that because of the water spots

that get on a yacht like that?

Sure.

The reason they're all the gel coats all white.

You know, Paul Allen with the blue one, the big blue.

Are you saying you can't avoid water spots on your yacht?

That's weird.

Huh.

I guess that's what we have a real water spot problem on our yacht.

So white.

White is only good for the yachts because of the water spotting.

Okay.

I like it.

Not as good for cars.

Very good.

Mr. McGillicuddy hasn't hooked on driving related question.

He said, do all tracks and region offer helmet rentals?

Yes, they do.

If you don't have a helmet, don't buy one just to come to a hooked on driving day.

It varies $20, $30 to rental of the helmet of the day.

It depends on the region.

But they all have helmets.

There's all available for rentals.

So if you're wanting to come and you've never come before, please come.

Please rent a helmet.

Bring whatever car you've got to have a great time.

Kevin Burke on Facebook asked our thoughts.

And don't breaking into the, we drove every generation of blank vehicle.

Did every GTR, every fiber, every golf.

A lot more recently.

They put out every bronco too.

You know, we just kind of fell into it with that 2013 film,

50 years in the 911 and decided, you know what?

Let's do it for the worthy versions.

We had suggestions about the Mustang.

Do all the versions of the Mustang.

We thought, oh my gosh.

Because of all the special versions?

Sure, yeah.

That would be a gigantic undertaking.

That would be painful.

I feel like.

Because don't forget about the bullet.

We would probably only do that one wrong.

But I love the idea because I love to see the progression of these cars.

The problem with them, the series actually is,

it's hard to get them to branch out beyond the people that already love that car.

You know what I mean?

The ones that we did, we did 911's, BMW M cars and the Corvette.

And the thing we kept running into,

and you bring it up with the Mustang,

if you don't like Mustangs,

are you going to watch us drive every Mustang?

Because it's us.

I don't know that you are.

Right.

And so it would heal specifically too.

The Mustang guys would watch it.

But then if we get it wrong,

we would get it wrong.

We would not know enough about Mustangs.

But that's the problem.

As you do these single mark things,

look at our three latest low-tie piece.

Those of you that really want to watch anything that we watch,

thank you very much.

Have liked that piece.

And then the rest of it is comments from Lotus owners.

There's no Ferrari guys watching our three low-tie piece.

That's true.

Okay, that has not done that well numbers wise

because there's not a lot of people that care about Lotus.

So it's you guys that want to watch all our stuff

and the guys that own Lotus and we're done.

So for every kind of model,

you could do all the top ones.

Yeah.

We thought about doing the generations of the Viper

when it was still in production.

Yeah, yeah.

But then it would be Viper owners.

I mean,

Pretty much.

Our enthusiasts really considering Viper's.

You have to be really know that you want a Viper to go...

You're not,

you're not brought to Viper.

I was thinking of Viper or maybe a G86.

That's not happening.

Yeah.

Viper or 911?

Nope. Viper.

Exactly.

Kirk Meyer says,

are the tops on modern convertibles good enough

for winter duty in the mountains

where there's a lot of snow or the Midwest,

where there's a lot of wind.

It's going to depend a little bit car to car,

but a lot of them are more cabriolets now.

When they close,

there's a layer of nice insulation above your head.

You're not seeing the mechanics of the top anymore.

When you could see all the hinges and mechanics of the top.

Some of those were scary both for snow and for wind.

Modern tops on like the 911 cabriolet is awesome.

The Miatas do really, really well.

The boxers are awesome.

The Z4 is pretty good.

I'm thinking of thinking through the ones that are soft top, actually.

And all the ones I can think of,

I drive all of them in the winter.

Now, you've got to make sure the top's been properly maintained

and works right,

but most of the modern ones are extra lined and work great.

On Facebook,

Michael Pee asks,

if we run dash cams in our cars,

he also asks,

why don't manufacturers just install them as factory equipment?

It would be more useful than other options

like a refrigerated glove box.

But I want to keep my...

The cool box.

It's a summery iced.

Yeah.

I really don't care.

But anyway, yeah.

You're right.

The hardware is already there.

Is Tesla the first to do this.

Michael has a dash cam on his MX-5,

but the cowl shake makes the video poor.

The Corvette has that track app.

A lot of GM products.

The Camaro's and Corbettes, they do have that.

And I think it's a great idea.

Actually, Tesla,

I've seen story after story,

where the cams,

the security cams actually save the driver,

even while driving.

You've got video evidence of wrongdoing

or something that would affect you

and affect your wallet,

that otherwise you had the ability to prove,

like, look, that person crashed into me,

or this happened.

I think it's a great idea.

I don't know why.

You could say it's a legal issue,

but look, Tesla's doing it.

And actually, I think on the side of their owners,

I think it's actually turning out to be a better thing.

So I think it's along the lines of screens

and Apple CarPlay and Android Auto,

and it's like manufacturers finally realizing,

like, okay, we need to update things.

We need to offer.

I don't see why not.

I think it's something.

When you're talking about every car

has to have a backup camera now,

you've already installed some level of camera

and installing something going out front is no big deal.

I think it's worth it.

I typically have not run a dash cam

until the Amira showed up,

and both the cost of the Amira

and the fact that Lotus actually has a plug

for power for a dash cam up by the rear-view mirror.

There's a USB plug up there.

I was like, you know what?

I'm going to get one now.

So the Amira has one in it,

and that actually came out of hate to say this,

but that came out of my experience of driving the C8

and running into a herd of deer.

It's like, you know, I just,

there's extra factors out there.

I should probably get one,

so I did do that for that.

Daniel on Facebook says,

if you're at a track day with hooked on driving,

how do you add air to your tires when needed?

Portable compressor?

The first off, Daniel,

you're probably going to take air out of your tires

at the track day.

So you need to bring a decent tire gauge or borrow one,

but in most cases,

and when this is true in North County,

it's true in other part regions as well.

There's a local tire professional

that's at the track day,

helping people with their tires.

And they will have a compressor,

a big one in their truck.

It's very, very common that somebody at the track day

is helping people with exactly this.

You're going to lower your pressures early in the day

so that when the tires heat up on track

because they heat up like crazy,

they get to right pressures while heated.

It doesn't matter what they're doing in the parking lot.

You want them proper when you're up on track

and running hard,

but then at the end of the day,

your tires are low.

And somebody around there has got a compressor.

It don't feel like you need to bring one.

Now Paul and I do bring a small portable compressor

we got from battery tenders.

It's really awesome.

It's not fast because it's small, but it works.

And then again,

there's typically a local tire guy with the big boy

and he's helping everybody.

Yeah.

People are willing to share,

and sometimes tracks do have air connections.

It's not always turned on,

but sometimes it's there.

And the best part is the community.

Everybody wants to help.

Usually people have the basic tools,

torque wrenches,

and air compressors,

and people want to help other people.

Guys, thank you for all your questions.

We really appreciate it.

Like Todd said, happy Thanksgiving.

Yeah.

If you're in the US,

we are taking a break for next episode.

So this is the only episode this week,

but we're looking forward to being back

and so much content to share.

Last reminder,

for Thanksgiving Day,

MX5 versus Z4.

Very cool.

Both manuals.

It's really fun.

We hope you watch,

enjoy with your families,

and we're looking forward to it next time as always.

Cheers everyone.

952: Cadillac F1, The Price Of Sim, Naturally Violent Engines

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