956: One Car For Your Lifetime, Let’s Make It Interesting, Gratuitous Product Planning

This is a car show, but it's also more, because cars connect us to every part of our lives. Families, careers, hobbies, and adventures we never expected. So you should have a car you love, and we're here to help. I'm Paul, I'm Todd, and this is the everyday driver, Cartabay. Hello everybody, happy Friday, welcome back to the podcast, and I have to say, if you're a person who might be walking around the PRI show in Indianapolis,

it's a performance racing industry show. It is different than SEMA in that it is more tracking and racing involved. And for the first time, we're there. So if you think you saw us, like I always say at SEMA, you did, we're there. So that is a Friday thing. We've actually been there for the last couple of days, and we're walking on the show today, so as you listen to the podcast, you know that we are walking around talking about tracking with the thing we do with hooked on driving. We're talking about that a lot. We have a bunch of really cool nationwide events happening with hooked on driving next year. We have trips happening with everyday driver, we have trips happening with hooked on driving.

We wait to share all of these dates with you guys. Paul and I are going to be running all over, but there's so much cool stuff happening next year. I can't wait to get there. We've just been hanging on for 25 because there's so much cool stuff. So there's a new hooked on driving website that has a new backing behind it. There's so many things we've done this year that's been nearly overwhelming for us at times. 2025 is going to be so cool as a result. I feel like this is the capper to what we've done in this first year with hooked on driving as we've continued everyday driver. So performance racing industry. And then I'm going to come home.

And sleep for a bit. That's my plan. But for 2024, the remainder, we have to tease you coming Christmas day, 2024 is the Grio's film. A few years ago, Richard Grio decided he was going to build a very high mileage diesel rabbit. Well, he did like you do. Like one does. Who thought of that except for Richard? It went onward. Yeah. It's a 1977 diesel rabbit with a fourth generation diesel engine from Magetta and a third generation. I think I got those right. Third generation manual transmission.

It's a better Volkswagen rabbit than ever exited the factory in Wolfsburg. This is ever if I had to guess it's probably the world's most expensive Volkswagen rabbit restomod because they did it to a high degree. But that means we had to bring cars to compete. So we brought an EV and a hybrid and that is coming Christmas day. It is very family-friendly and also family ridiculous candidly. I cannot wait for you to see it. It's on its way. Nice. So yes, tune in when you are full of food.

And you're looking for something else to do Christmas day. That is coming. We can't wait to share. Thank you to Richard, to Nick, Philip,

Forest, everyone at Grio's Garage for helping us pull this film off. And it was shot in September of 2024. We did a big road trip. The whole premise is, who's going to run out of fuel first? Yes. No one gets to refuel. Yep.

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Since we didn't do a topic Tuesday, we had a guest on Tuesday. We're doing a topic Tuesday now.

We're talking about the extremes of maintenance and mileage and this is an interesting question that came through from Jimmy.

It's kind of a car debate. It's kind of a topic Tuesday. It's all of the above.

He was looking for a certain thing and that got him to write us and say when we're used car shopping,

we always talk about this, that maintenance is more important than mileage.

If the car has really high miles but you've maintained it really well, like when I bought 185,000 mile mini Cooper.

But that guy had done everything in the world's nicest garage. So I'm going to take a gamble.

This is kind of Jimmy's question. What's the tip over point where you know the mileage?

I don't care what you maintain. It is just too high and he asks this because he found a one owner,

first generation Toyota Tacoma, 2004 TRD off-road.

He said it's been so well maintained that every possible service has been done since new,

clean regularly, no rust near perfect body and paint parked indoors.

There is no way for him to find a better 2004 Toyota Tacoma.

The problem is it has 374,000 miles,

which means sometime in his first year or so of ownership, it will tick over 400,000 miles.

This owner is offering it for $7,000. Do we think this is insane?

Jimmy is asking if he's insane. He's asking if he needs a renautic check.

Yes. He says the owner clearly was in it for the long term. And so is there a care factor adjusted mileage formula?

I couldn't Google that. There isn't an app. There's no pre-built thing.

Putting the entering in the line item well maintained is humanly possible care factor

and factoring that into what the price should be.

It's really well maintained. You would look at this and you would never think 374,000 miles.

On the other hand, it's a Toyota. It's a Toyota that everyone knows is going to run forever.

Here's one that has. Jimmy found it. You think, okay, sure, you have 20 years old, $7,000. That makes sense.

374,000 miles is the problem. For seven grand? I think that's worth it.

Here's the crazy. They ball. I think it right. I think it's worth it. Jimmy, here's the thing.

This truck specifically is an outlier. This is from that era when Top Gear was trying to kill Toyota pickups and couldn't.

This is from that era. This is known to be as valuable as Toyota trucks have ever been.

It's why it's still worth as much as $7,000 within the 400,000 miles on it, theoretically.

The way into the theoretical here. Is it a taxi? I don't know. We are in a world where, if you as a person,

dedicated yourself to continuing to service whatever broke on your car, you could have one car for your lifetime.

You could just keep driving one car for your lifetime. That is possible. Let me turn it around.

We also talk about when people buy cars less than $5,000, less than $10,000. We say brace for first year.

If you buy this for $7,000, Jimmy, my guess is as well maintained as it is. This may be a $10,000 truck.

In your first year, I think it's pretty likely you're going to put two to three grand into something.

Tires breaks. I don't know. But I think you're going to put some maintenance into this to just get it up to, okay, now you're comfortable with it.

Because I also want to go here. Our friend Matt Faire years ago now bought what he believed was going to be the million mile Lexus.

Oh, that's right. I forgot about that. He bought that 96 Lexus LS.

That's right. Which everybody knew was the most reliable thing on the planet. He bought it with just over 900,000 miles.

And he bought it for the coverage, for the laughs, but he thought, how expensive can this thing be to get another 100,000 miles in it?

And I'll tell you the answer is very expensive. Matt looks back on that with kind of a, I don't think that was a good choice.

Listen to him talk about it. There was constant stuff. It's close to a million miles. Let's get it to a million.

It was constant stuff. You remember if you ever had to have the engine rebuilt.

I don't think you did just tear down, but they have to crack the engine. I don't think they did. But I think he spent, and I'm going to get the numbers wrong.

I think he spent somewhere in the neighborhood of $20,000 getting that thing an extra 100,000 miles on its lifetime.

So I think Jimmy that this is probably, I can't believe I'm saying this, probably priced correctly.

But I think there's a few thousand dollars in year one. I'm going to say, because of this being an outlier reliability, I'm going to take 200,000 miles off the odometer.

This is 174,000 mile vehicle. Because why? Because it's the Tacoma.

Just because of reliability. Because of what it's known to do. And because of how it's been maintained. That's going into the formula.

Because it's got a toy on a badge, knock 200,000 miles off. But it's back to like the mini that I bought at 185,000 miles.

That felt like an 85,000 mile car to me because of what the guy had done. This is a hard and fast car.

It was super charged. It was urban blaze. It was insane. Over Christmas break. It was in front of TV.

He looked up anything that could possibly go wrong and replaced it when he thought it might need to be replaced.

That's what this is that you've found. So my question for you, Jimmy, is how comfortable would you be buying a car?

That is close to 200,000 miles. Any of us listening, you bought a car close to 200,000.

This is an outlier at almost four, but that's the calculation. Because I think most of us, if we're buying a car with more than 150,000 miles, we really seriously think about it.

If this is not your daily, you don't have to rely on it as your only thing. I say yes, but brace for more money.

How much can you grind on the seller for the miles? Because perfect maintenance, it's a perfect truck. You would never know that looking at the odometer.

They're asking seven grand. Is that the listing? Is that face value? Or have you reached negotiations at this point? Maybe you bought it by this time.

Have you reached negotiations that you're down to seven grand? Because if seven is the starting place, you can always throw this at them.

Yeah, but mileage. Or is the seller going to throw it back at you? Yeah, but Toyota.

Tacoma. Yeah. It's the Tacoma from the right era that everybody wants.

What if you had to put an entirely new engine and transmission? At that point, you've just bought a chassis for seven grand.

That's interesting. And you had to buy an engine transmission. Do you want the truck bad enough? On the other hand, it could run and you could have a store yourself when you hit 500,000 miles.

Suddenly, you got a store. It's a talking point everywhere you go. And you say, yeah, I only paid seven grand or 6500 or however much you negotiate with.

It just might keep running. If it runs for a year with no maintenance, is that worth it versus something that was not really well maintained, but it's got fairly low miles.

And it's still a decent price. And you put three to four grand into it for a year.

There's such a gamble here. Are you gambling, man, Jimmy? I think this is worth it at seven grand, because it could just keep running, especially with oil.

The metallurgy should be fine. There should be nowhere in the engine block. If this guy's done everything like the label has.

Does it blow smoke? If it doesn't, well, the rings are still fine. If you get to 450, that seems worth it. Drop a new engine in. Keep driving the thing.

No rust in the chassis. Body's still good. Buy a cheap engine from a wrecked one of these and keep on trucking my friend.

Jimmy's going to buy this. Sorry, this is my prediction. Jimmy's going to buy this. Jimmy's going to have it to 500,000 miles and it's going to wind up on, bring a trailer and sell for more than he bought it for.

That's my prediction. Because of the miles and because of the everything. Yes, because of the everything.

All right, Jimmy wishing you all the best. If you haven't considered this, maybe it's sold already. Maybe you bought it.

But if you did buy it, please, please send us photos. We would love to see it. Part of this equation that you're asking for. The recipe.

I guess it does include a Toyota badge, but then you heard from our Consumer Reports interview. Toyota dropped down in the rankings.

So how does that new standings from Consumer Reports fit into the recipe?

But this is back when they were indestructible. Maybe we only can deduct a hundred thousand miles and it's got a Toyota badge.

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Zach is writing in about emotional shiny things. He's getting distracted by a new fun sports car.

That's really what he wants and we totally relate. He's looking to add a third car to their garage in the next few months and he's likely to change one or both of their current vehicles while he adds a car.

This is because he wants something more fun. This is really where it's going.

This is one of those great emails and thank you so much for it, Zach, where you've broken down all your thinking and just said, please look at all of these and tell me which one I should do.

But of course, I have wild cards. He's got options for us. But first, Zach and his wife says they have a 2020 Volvo XC 90 and a 2014 981 came in base six speed manual.

The Volvo XC 90 is driven Monday through Friday, 10 to 30 miles a day for school, sports, stores, everything you need for life. Sure.

Then for long family road trips camping and towing, they're small 3,000 pound camper.

Now Zach drives the Cayman 20 miles Monday through Friday to work on back roads. Excellent choice.

Then in the summer spirit of driving with other sports car owners, car shows, once your road trips.

Love it.

A plus for the Cayman is that Zach's 10 year old son can sit in the front seat because there's no back seats.

That works out. Yes, I love it. His total budget for three vehicles is $130,000.

I sense wiggle room here.

The main driver for the third car is provided daily driver for sale winners.

So he doesn't need to drive the Cayman year round and let it be more of an occasional special car.

Okay.

Occasional special car for Caymans. They need to be driven. I mean, you're driving it now.

Yeah.

And you're wanting to relegate it to more occasional use, which means you're going to want sporty car feeling out of whatever third car you add.

Even if you replace the Volvo with some other Volvo is now the generic name for that category of vehicle.

You get another Volvo in there.

You're still going to want something kind of sporty because we recommend boring commute car for that second car only to hopefully get to drive the Cayman soon.

You're going to regret your choice.

Maybe.

I hope that whatever you get, I understand you're looking for something that is a little more commute friendly and commute focused.

You're kind of intrigued about the possibility of the EV for that commuter. That's come up as well.

And you've got your variants that you've built.

You've said the idea of three vehicles in your mind is ones of sports car, ones in electric for daily,

and the other is a truck or SUV for towing and the family trips and all that kind of stuff.

And I see how all of your ideas filter through this.

But I agree with you, Paul.

He's going to want to enjoy all these cars.

And the other thing about it is that Cayman is kind of the perfect sports car daily.

So if it's not a daily, I hate to ask this question, but if it's not a daily, is it special enough?

Does it need to be weirder and quirkier of a sports car?

If it's going to be the thing you jump in occasionally while you have a more normal commuter, I'm just wondering.

And quite possibly more expensive.

Yes.

If it's the weirder higher horsepower better car.

So I'm more expensive.

I agree.

He's got four options.

There's four here.

Very interesting.

Option one, he says it's the sensible option.

Get the get a used 997.2911 or maybe an early 991.

So that's late 2000s early 2010s 911 era.

Or a boxer Cayman GTS, roughly 65 grand.

Get a used Polestar 2.

There's the electric commuter for 30.

Keep the Volvo in this scenario or trade it for a used tundra for 30k.

Love how we're back to Toyota trucks.

Is everyone going to like that tundra though?

Yeah.

I don't know that that's going to work for the family commute vehicle.

It'd be work for the towing but not the rest of it.

That's option one.

Yeah.

Option two leaning into the fun car.

Get a used 981 spider or high spec 991 for 90k.

So spend most of your budget on that car.

Get a used eGall for maybe a BMW i3 for about 15k.

Like that idea.

Keep the Volvo XC90 in this scenario.

Then lean into the electric car.

Keep the current base Cayman.

Get a used tycon for 60k.

Interesting.

Okay.

And keep the Volvo.

And then the last one.

Keep the 981 Cayman base.

Get that used eGall for BMW i3 for under 15k.

And then in two years when the Scout Traveler SUV comes out with a range extender for 65 to 80 probably more.

Then he gets that as the new family vehicle that's also EV.

Scout.

The Scout.

The Traveler that just got announced.

That it's supposed to come in two years.

The Rivian that looks like a Rivian that isn't a Rivian-

That isn't a Rivian-

It's a Scout.

It's a Rivian that comes from Volkswagen even though it's a Scout.

And we don't know where the market's going to be in two years.

That's the last of the ideas.

You put down the posit already.

I don't know that I'd count on that even if you go through with it.

You've got the deposit and you go through and get the car in two years.

Who knows what your life is going to be like?

Who knows if they're coming in two years?

Who knows what the market's going to be for EVs?

I still see them celebrating.

Look, we got Steel Ibeam's building our factory right now.

Like, okay.

Two years.

Two years from now.

Lucid just started building that gravity.

True.

Alright.

Fine.

Getting the gravity out.

And every single automaker we've been talking about is changing their EV strategy.

Where are they in two years?

Yeah.

If you're going to get an EV,

I can make the argument for getting something fun like an I5N.

The Hyundai Ionic 5N.

That's where I saw in some of your options here.

Look at it like option two.

Nope.

It'd be option three.

Prioritize the fun electric car.

You keep the 981 Cayman because manual Cayman is super fun.

And that could be interchangeable.

You can drive that, not year round,

but more than you can in the snowy climates like Utah.

You can drive it quite a bit in the Seattle area.

And instead of a used Tycon for 60K,

why don't we put in the I5N for 60K?

They're more like 60K.

Sure, brand new, fun.

Yeah.

Okay.

I also don't know that you need to get rid of the Volvo XC90 right now

because it is so good at everything.

Don't know what your mileage is on that.

But I don't know that the Volvo needs to go anywhere for right now.

I'd say,

another two to four years,

hang on to that,

keep driving it,

put the miles on it,

because the depreciation has really occurred on that already.

I'm ready because it's 2020.

And it's great.

It does everything.

I totally agree with you.

I think no matter what the scenario is,

I think keeping the Volvo is the answer for right now.

We'll keep going.

It's back to that Cayman sitting

and you get the middle car,

the commute car,

electric gas,

don't care,

you're going to want fun out of that.

And so if you spend too little,

like you suggested to use EGOL for I3 for under 15K,

I would tell you to go buy a 374,000 mile to coma for seven grand,

before I tell you to buy an EGOL for 15.

Interesting, okay.

No to that.

All right.

No to the I3.

Jimmy, are you listening here?

That's funny.

I hate it.

Huh, I don't agree.

But keep going.

I think you'd feel like you wasted 15 grand

because it doesn't do exactly what you want.

It's not that much fun to drive.

The range is going down.

I'd say spend more to get something that really intrigues you

because that middle car,

you're going to start to really drive.

That means the Cayman will sit

and you're going to put more emphasis on driving fun for that.

So yeah, I don't think you should go the

interesting thousand dollar direction.

Unless you want a new sports car experience,

and like you said,

you're willing to entertain 981 Spider

or higher spec 991 for 90,

unless you're completely done with that Cayman,

which hard to imagine that you are,

but I understand, maybe lower on power

and all right, you've had it for a while.

Yeah.

Otherwise, what a great sports car.

Just so satisfying to drive everywhere.

If you're not done with it,

look at, I guess, Polestar.

You suggested a used Polestar 2 for 30 grand.

Even that just doesn't strike me as that much fun.

It's not.

Spend more on the middle car.

Spend something.

Get some complimentary cool BMW.

Get anything in there that is 50 to 60

and you don't care about it as much,

but it's fun.

And then let's work on the sports car later.

Meanwhile, the Volvo stays.

That's just nothing's happening to that.

There's so many fun.

Well, see, you already have the fun sports car.

I want to suggest other fun experiences.

M2 Supra, a higher level 911.

But that Cayman is just so great.

So let's focus on the middle car.

Interesting.

So Zach, what's happened here is that Paul

who loves Cayman's and they are awesome

and has a 981 and does love it

is just saying, what's wrong with the Cayman?

Keep the Cayman.

And that is a very good argument.

I do agree with that.

Unless you're going to go track it

or you need more performance

for some reason,

you're just doing the road trip thing with it.

Mm-hmm.

But what I read in here, Zach,

when I read this,

is you've got all these variants,

but there is one pattern.

The ones I feel like you're leaning toward the most

result in you getting a utterly new experience.

The scout on one end

or all of these fun,

more expensive sports cars on the other.

You're looking for a new experience

that feels more extreme than the cars you have.

And I think what you're also saying without saying is,

I really like my Cayman,

but I want a new higher end experience than the Cayman.

So how do I justify that

and make it still work for my family?

So I am here for you, man.

I'm here for you, Zach.

Here's where we go.

I don't know how much EV you need.

And I'm going to back your play on the cheap EV

because I think if you get a cheap EV commuter,

then it will probably, hopefully,

slot into where you need it in your life.

And that is when it's a little jaunt,

you're going to take the EV,

when it's a really nasty day for whether you're going to take the EV.

But the rest of the time,

you will drive the sports car.

I hope instead of your sports car being Monday to Friday,

it's three days a week.

Because the other days,

it's nasty and you just go,

you know, I'll take the EV,

it's no big deal.

Let's take that today.

It's going to be horrible out there.

I'll just take the EV.

I don't have to worry about it.

So I am backing your play on.

I don't know about the e-golf,

but the i3 is interesting.

Those are the 90 miles of range or something.

Yeah, but you can get the range extender.

And he doesn't go that far.

Which is a gas engine.

Exactly, of course it is.

Exactly.

But it's a unique thing.

You don't see a lot of their cheap,

their reliability's been pretty good.

Their rear wheel drive biased.

I think that's interesting.

I also think the mini e is interesting,

but I don't know if that's out of your budget.

I think it might be,

but the mini e is pretty cool too.

But the i3 for your right,

15 grand, you can get the nicest one out there.

So it's been 15 grand there.

We're not going scout, man.

I'm sorry.

We're not going with the scout, Zach.

I just don't feel like we can rely on it right now.

I can tell you what the scout's going to drive like.

Go test drive a review.

And drive a review.

Yeah, exactly.

That's what the scout will feel like.

Keep that Volvo.

You've said, here's the thing that's interesting

about your Volvo description is,

there's not a thing wrong with it.

It does everything you need it to do.

So since it works right now,

keep the Volvo.

Get the i3.

But then here's where I'm going to push on you, Zach.

Whenever you talk about going up market from your Cayman,

you only listed Portia's.

You listed nothing else.

I feel like if you're going to have a Porsche,

why aren't you driving it all the time?

So if it's not going to be all the time,

it needs to be more of an event.

And the Porsche can work.

The 911 is very cool.

But if you're talking $60 to $90,000

for your next fun car,

I have drive homework for you.

And I am at this point insisting on the drive homework.

Really?

It's not just you might consider.

I'm going to say, if you haven't driven

the things I'm about to list, you can't buy.

Throw down.

Super with a manual.

Lotus Evora.

Lotus Emira.

And Corvette C8.

For the fun car.

For the 911 replacement.

You're talking for the, yeah, the 911.

He's talking it's been in $60 to $80,000.

All of those cars are in that range.

Yeah.

Have you driven those?

Do you need a 911?

I'm not saying anything wrong with a 911.

But you're also talking about hotter variants of your Cayman,

which yes, would be very good.

But I feel like you've gone, I need a better sports car.

What else does Porsche have?

And I'm going, there's a whole bunch of other brands out here.

There's a lot of them.

There are.

Everything had listed.

Super with a manual.

Lotus Evora.

Lotus Emira.

And Corvette C8.

Every single one of those is a phenomenal,

dailyable, exotic car.

A car that is every bit is fun or more so than the 911 you're talking about.

I'm putting it out there.

So you haven't driven, nothing else is considered.

I mean, I'm not saying go buy a Viper.

I mean, that is super nuts, okay?

And in many ways, if you're going to have it as your, like, just fun car,

then we want to get into more nuts.

But the ones I'm listing here, be sure you've driven them.

Because you're talking about the event car.

That you'd like to have it be a little more of an event and lean more into the back roads

and the car clubs and the track days and the road trips.

So let's make it a real event.

And that's my list.

So you're saying, keep the Volvo.

My three and a different fun sports car.

A different sports car than almost as much.

Almost as much.

Something that here's the thing.

When you look at your day and you go,

I really, I shouldn't take that sports car today.

That's okay.

Because you have the EV alt.

But most of the time, it's like, I still could.

I still could.

And all the ones I've listed you could.

But I also want it to be not necessarily a Porsche badge.

Because there's a lot of really good cars out there right now.

You are correct.

There's great ones out there.

And to get a different fun, high-end sports car experience,

there's so many options.

I'm just so concerned about this middle car.

But I don't want it to be too fun where you default to driving that over the camera.

Exactly.

That's my concern.

I don't want it to go too far.

Like, oh, we overcorrected.

If the middle car is too fun.

This is my concern about TyCon or the BMW i4.

I just think you're going to get in that.

And the sports car's never going to get driven.

I want it to be an event.

I want it to be like, you know what?

I'm taking that today.

How about a different flavor?

Zach, like a Civic Type R.

Or an Accure Integra Type S for 50 grand as the middle fun car.

They're superb to drive great to commuting,

great weather, good gas mileage.

Wow, cool.

I see where you're going.

Something totally different.

Giant, weird, wing on the back.

Like, what are you?

12?

Yes.

I am 12.

My exterior may say 50.

I am 12.

But see, you could just, we need milk.

Yes.

Alright, let's take the Civic Type R.

Let's go get milk.

We'll be back in a jiffy.

Come on, kids.

But I don't want you to start driving that car because, wow,

this is so great.

Or like a GR Corolla or something.

Wow, this is just so much fun to drive in commuting.

Like, the Porsche sits.

I want you to go drive that Porsche.

See, I want you have both.

I want you have a little bit more fun car for the middle car.

And then a way more fun car for the fun car.

I agree.

Well, here's the part of it, Zach.

You've also mentioned that you like the two-door two-seat

because it means your son is riding right-seat.

I had this experience for when my son was very, very young.

He got to ride right-seat because it was only a two-seat car.

I'm going to put down a challenge to you, Zach.

Drive at 9.11.

Super.

Evora.

Amira C8.

All of the test drives with your son.

Oh, that's good.

Does he want you to get the 9.11?

Because my money is no.

OK, let's make this interesting.

How about five bucks?

Sure.

Five bucks.

And I'll say yes, he chooses the 9.11.

OK.

And sound and badge will come into play.

Maybe sort of winged.

Winged anything.

Collar will come into play.

Yes.

Five bucks.

Zach, are you in?

We'll see.

Yes, inexplication.

Sin despedida.

Y tú no lo superaste.

Isis de posts, tweets.

Hasta abriste grupos en las redes sociales.

Y te enfocaste en lograr tu meta que regresara.

Y hoy, después de años de pedirlo, volvió el Snack Wrap.

Ordenalo en Ranch o Spicey.

Encuentra tu Snack Wrap.

En tu metanos favorito.

Para, para, para.

Some more fun questions from you guys.

Thank you as always.

Matthew was asking a question about JAG.

And then indirectly about Nissan and Stellantis in general.

He said all of these brands are struggling.

But rather than throw very well-liked designs out the window,

is that true of the new JAG?

Anyway, rather than throw good designs out the window,

and I would also say some legendary name plates out the window,

isn't the solution for these companies to improve reliability

and durability?

And Matthew, as I thought about this,

I think the answer is no.

The answer is to change perception.

And I'm going to use a weird example.

Kia and Hyundai.

When they first got released in this country 20-something years ago,

were kind of laughing stock cars.

You bought them because you needed the cheapest cars on the market.

They started to transform their brands when they offered

the best warranty in the industry.

And what we've heard from behind the scenes is that was created by marketing.

We're going to offer 10 years, 100,000 miles,

which nobody was offering on powertrain.

But by offering that, suddenly the R&D department got a little scared.

It said we have to make cars that hold up to that

so we don't bankrupt the company with all of our warranty claims.

So suddenly, in reverse direction,

this weird marketing attempt, let's be honest,

what was it an attempt by to just change perception?

You think our cars are cheap and won't run.

What if we offered you a 10-year warranty?

That's just a perception change.

That's all that is.

That's just marketing.

But now the company has to change to meet it.

All the engineers are like crap.

Yes, they were.

Yes, the engineers were terrified.

Yes, we've heard this from inside.

This is exactly how it went down.

So my point is, what if Jaguar or Nissan or other Stellantis brands

change their perception in the public mind?

Then people would go looking for those cars from that brand

and the brand would have to change to match it.

Okay, if the boring cars from Nissan right now became reliable,

do we care?

Do we talk about Nissan more?

No.

But if Nissan had a, oh my gosh, they've got a new 240.

Did you see that they just released the Z-Car?

Everybody's always wanted.

We're going to talk about Nissan.

Everybody's going to have a, if Jaguar's weird new redesign

had been the prettiest car we'd all ever seen,

guess what had happened?

They're ordered books to be full.

People don't even know when it's coming out to be like,

I want one of those.

Design matters.

Perception matters.

Okay, we're reading in the news here that Stellantis is failing.

First off, terrible name.

Why are the aliens here to make cars?

We told you so.

It's terrible name.

What if every one of those brands had a new,

have you seen the new Renault?

Have you seen what Jeep is doing?

These cars that people were like,

I want one of those.

This is the scout from Volkswagen.

People have not been talking about Volkswagen,

with the possible exception of the ID buzz,

as like, you have to go look at what Volkswagen is doing,

because they're just cranking out of Volkswagen.

They look like Volkswagen's.

But the scout brand, who by the way,

is just Volkswagen Rivian.

But it looks really cool,

and it has a legendary name, and they went,

all right, let's give you something cool,

and the order books are full.

I guess the only difference is it has a solid rear axle,

so an EV with a solid axle?

I don't know.

The point I make here is.

How much different can it possibly be?

I mean, it's probably a Rivian.

Anyway, to find out.

We are.

I don't think it's reliability and durability.

I think it is mostly perception.

On Instagram, Bellabee 1029 says news.

Reports say Toyota is looking to bring the Celica back.

One problem.

Doesn't the 86 currently occupy that spot in the lineup

where the Celica would go?

Yes.

Here we'll drive sports car under the Supra,

and doesn't the GR Corolla take care of the rally

all we'll drive part of the Celica legacy?

Yes.

How would my favorite product planners,

he writes, make the Celica unique

in Toyota's amazing GR lineup?

I have a solve.

Please, I'm waiting to hear.

Because I want the Celica to come back.

Well, the version that they built for SEMA was really cool.

The 86 with the Celica livery and the all-wheel drive

from the GR Corolla, that was like,

okay, bring this.

Ignore the other more recent Celica talk.

Yeah, okay.

The Supra for the next gen gets lighter.

More hardcore.

Maybe more power.

It's already really power.

Plenty power.

Really fast.

I'll take a point.

But lighter.

More focus on the really higher end of the sports car

enthusiast.

That is 9.11.

Oh, Toyota.

It's going up market.

Okay, cool.

Just a little bit.

Relatively speaking.

You know, not Porsche prices,

but Toyota, you know,

it moves the same Delta,

but competing low level.

Yeah.

Up there at 7080 grand.

Yeah, that's 56.

Really focused.

It's superb to drive.

It's super aspirational.

And sales have indicated even though they're good.

And Toyota's even happy with them.

Yeah, yeah.

It's not like it has to be the bread and butter con sales.

No, definitely not.

Now over here for the rally part,

you mentioned GR Corolla.

And that is an outlier to me.

That can continue to exist.

That can continue to be the gnarly little.

Yeah.

Hey.

Got the Corolla to do this.

What is this?

Lot of power.

Cool.

But that's not really what Celica flavor really ever was.

Then GR86 also continues to get lightweight,

focused, stays rear-wheel drive.

But the Celica enters the lineup as an all-wheel drive sports car.

It's like Porsche introduces the 9.11 Taga all-wheel drive.

GTS.

Porsche is our reference everyone.

It's like that.

I got you.

There's not a lot of daylight between all the models.

There's not.

Yeah.

But it does bring the Celica back

and Celicas are only all-wheel drive.

I see it.

They're only for all-wheel drive.

Really trading on the rally legacy.

Because when we think of the best Celicas in the past,

what have they been?

They've been rally cars with all-wheel drive,

which is why they teased us with the all-wheel drive GR86.

Unless you go all the way back to the EA86,

the one that was the original rear-wheel drive

that obviously the GR86 is trading on.

It's either that or you jump.

You're right.

You jump all the way to the, those all-wheel drive,

90s models were cool.

Right.

And it gives Toyota an opportunity,

not to create something bigger than the GR86,

maybe slightly,

but with a different powertrain,

the power somewhere located between GR86 and Supra.

But I never see the GR86 being all-wheel drive.

No.

I agree.

No, no, no.

I agree.

I never want the Supra to be all-wheel drive.

Please, no.

Okay.

So what is that middle flavor with the heritage,

the history that you can that sports car,

not GR Corolla.

It's sports car that's all-wheel drive.

Yeah.

That's where the Celica lives.

Interesting.

It's not necessarily bigger,

but it's got more power than the 86,

less than the Supra,

with an all-wheel drive chassis,

an all-wheel drive platform,

and maybe some back seats,

but you could really capture the all-wheel drive.

People wanting all-wheel drive out of Supra.

Hey, have you considered a Celica?

Hey, you don't want a GR Corolla?

You're skeptical about the three-cylinder

and Corolla is not doing it for you.

Celica, all-wheel drive.

That's what Celica could really hang its head on.

I like this, and you know, it's interesting,

because again, the Celicas were beloved for as long

as they were real-wheel drive,

and then they became front-wheel drive.

It was like, it's a Celica.

We don't like it as much.

And then the all-wheel drive, we love them again.

You know what I also think is interesting here is,

this could replace the BRZ on the Subaru lineup,

because Subaru's only not all-wheel drive car is the BRZ.

So whatever this new Celica is,

becomes the car being sold under Subaru.

There it is.

And the GR86 becomes a Toyota only car.

And the new Celica becomes,

you could call that the new STI.

And it doesn't have to be a flat-for-engine

in the new Celica.

It can be something.

It can be whatever.

But the BRZ is such an oddball in the Subaru lineup,

because it is the only thing they don't sell

that's not all-wheel drive.

Yeah, it doesn't really fit,

but it can't be the Subaru Celica.

It can't be that.

No, of course not.

But I do see an opportunity for Toyota to also sell it as the Celica,

and then you can go get the Subaru version of it

that might be lifted even more than the Celica is.

Possibly, possibly, yeah.

We've got more product planning to do

with a question from Jake's on a plane.

Which automaker do we feel is best positioned

to introduce a new sports car?

What would you call it?

And at what price point would you put it?

I think Genesis is so primed.

They're so ripe.

Sure.

It's ready for a cool sports car.

It has to be lightweight.

It has to be not quite so big.

I feel like the Genesis product lineup

is flexing a little bit towards the larger end of cars.

Okay.

A small Genesis can still be a luxury car.

Sure, sure, yeah, yeah.

But a luxury sports car that's really focused

on the driving of it.

It's like you bought a luxurified Supra or something like that.

I see it.

Even Porsche is branded by the world

as a luxury sports car maker.

When I hear that, I think,

oh, they're just fat pigs full of sure,

leather and wood and carpeting.

Well, no, there's some pretty hardcore,

not letters out there.

There's some hardcore letters out there, yeah.

Hardcore came in.

So I guess they are a luxury automaker,

but this is Genesis.

I'm not sure what to call it.

Magma moors.

I'm trade on that.

That magma brand is ripe.

You're right.

It's right there.

It suggests one's coming, you're right.

But make it not so big.

It can't be like a big GT car.

It's got to be smaller than that.

Like I said, like a supersize or a lighter weight

Corvette C8 size.

I'm not saying it has to be mid-engine,

but it could be a GT car shape like a Supra

but really compete on a little bit more luxury,

a little bit more style and class,

but then it's really still hardcore.

I like that.

My favorite, Jake's, is Honda.

My question is for Honda.

Where are you?

In the true rear-wheel drive sports car market.

People keep looking back and lionizing the S2000.

Where are you?

You have the engineers, the technology, the history

to make phenomenal sports cars.

The NSX, prior to the re-release,

I'm talking the original NSX,

was the affordable look at what you can get for this money

and how much better it is than your Ferrari.

Where's Honda?

And I could see two variants of this.

I could see a 86 competitor.

Let's call it the S3000, an 86 competitor.

No, no, Ferrari's coming out.

That's Ferrari will drive.

It shouldn't be what Honda's position in the Prylo2B.

It should be a direct JR86 competitor,

I agree, but Honda.

But I want a rear-wheel drive, the S3000 let's say.

You could put it right against the 86

or you could kick it up market and go against the Supra.

But I want a Honda designed, Honda refined,

what is the mix of what they learned on NSX

and what they learned on S2000.

need original NSX now.

The analog thinking of rear-wheel drive Honda.

Pull that forward 25 years.

What's that car?

And I think people would go, oh my gosh.

And they buy it because it's Honda.

That's really good.

All right, Jake, my last suggestion here is GM with Fiero.

Fiero is a notch above Saturn for jokes

that write themselves in most people's minds.

But the people who have driven a Fiero

and are a Fiero enthusiast,

they're like, why aren't all cars like this?

Lightweight mid-engine cool little fun sports car.

Come back out with an interesting, it's a miniature C8.

It's a Fiero.

Bring the Fiero brand back to give GM a light weight sports car.

If you're not going to do the C8 with a man

of transmission called the C8T,

it all comes back to Borscht or Nova Clayton.

But I love it.

Keep going.

Then build a Fiero that's smaller, lightweight,

still mid-engine, share the components,

and make it the MR2.

Because the MR2's got to come back too.

Well, we drove that Buick investor recently.

What was that, a 1.2 liter turbo?

Yes.

Three cylinder.

Yes.

Three cylinder 1.2 liter turbo.

That engine in a small mid-engine chassis

with a main no transmission.

Yes.

We call that the Fiero.

A new Fiero, great stuff.

Yes.

A miniature C8 styling.

And call that the Fiero.

Take my money.

Love it.

Last question from me.

Teeth and cars says, how do you split your budget

between fun car and daily?

I think it comes down to amount of usage.

Because if you're a person who we talked about

already on this podcast, if you're a person who,

the daily is just the commute car.

It needs to do just commute things.

And any opportunity you have to drive the fun car.

Then just buy just enough commuter

and spend the rest of your money on fun car.

But if the commuter is, you live in Los Angeles

and you're in it all the time

and you're occasionally in the fun car,

then the fun car can be a rattled trap

of an old sports car that runs and you laugh about the fact

that it's not perfect, but it's so much fun.

But you spent your money to be comfortable

and to have a daily that actually coddles you a little bit.

What's your life balance like?

I think that dictates it right away.

Last question from me on Instagram, Joel Torres asks me

if I think I would still have the M2 had I gone through

with that order, it seems like the Porsche

is more of a long-term keeper over a BMW.

Yes, you're correct there.

What else was I cross-shopping at that time?

Nothing because I wanted a small lightweight new BMW

that's front engine, it's like a GT car

but it's still a just a usable, it's just car.

And it was such a counterpoint to the Cayman dynamically speaking,

I would have sold it by now

and I think I would have still pursued a C8 Corvette.

It's not the perfect car in any category

but as the all-arounder, it's just so unbeatable.

It's amazing how maybe the best all-around sports car

being sold really.

I think the Corvette would have come out

and I probably would have sold the M2 to get the C8.

But I also think that M2 could have gone on a few videos,

some road trips that we were doing at the time,

it could have been featured here and there

but it also might have gone away

just to do some of these different, more focused,

the big car challenge, the cheap car challenge,

the sports car challenge, those different things,

it might have had to leave anyway,

it was very much an emotional thing, like oh my gosh,

BMW kind of revisiting the 1M.

And here it is brand new, it's almost there, like sweet

but then some other cars would have peaked my interest

either for films, like I said, or that C8.

But yeah, and now we'll see how long the C8 sticks around.

Yeah.

Thank you for all your questions.

We really appreciate it.

And like Todd said, if you see us at the PRI show,

we are cruising around there.

That really was us, you just saw a walk by.

Looking at crazy horsepower crate motors.

I can't wait to see those, otherwise,

we're always looking forward to next time,

really appreciate all your topic Tuesdays,

car debates, car conclusions,

write to us every day, drive your TV at gmail.com.

And cheers, everyone.

956: One Car For Your Lifetime, Let’s Make It Interesting, Gratuitous Product Planning

About this episode

Volkswagen Rabbit

Toyota Tacoma

Volvo XC90

Porsche Cayman

Porsche 911

Cayman Gts

Polestar 2

Toyota Tundra

BMW i3

Traveler Suv

Lucid Gravity

Hyundai Ionic

Toyota Supra

BMW M2

Volkswagen Egolf

Lotus Evora

Lotus Emira

Chevrolet Corvette

Bmw I4

Acura Integra

Toyota GR Corolla

Volkswagen Id Buzz

Toyota Celica

Toyota Gr86

Subaru BRZ

Honda S2000

Honda NSX

Pontiac Fiero

Chevrolet Nova

Toyota MR2

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