The episode dives into the evolving landscape of electric vehicles (EVs), featuring guest Jordan Sheifer from Out of Spec. The discussion covers the current state of EV technology, the challenges manufacturers face, and the importance of driving dynamics in new models. Topics include the impact of Tesla's software superiority, the rise of Hyundai's Ioniq 5, and the implications of recent market trends on used EV values. The hosts also share insights on upcoming automotive events and personal car debates, making for a lively and informative conversation.
For Topic Tuesday, the guys host Jordan Schiefer from Out Of Spec to discuss the EV industry at large. They help Brian in FL overcome seller’s remorse to move on to the next adventure. Social media questions ask which types of designs respond to brighter or darker colors, what company would openly admit they’re on equal footing with Nissan, and would removing the CVT + new design language help sell more Nissans?
Please rate + review us on iTunes, and subscribe to our two YouTube channels. Write us with your Car Debates, Car Conclusions, and Topic Tuesdays at [email protected] or everydaydriver.com. Don’t forget to share the podcast with your car enthusiast friends!
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"...has this crazy thing called TF days to listen to Martin, which is a fantastic word. I did want to say the word. That is the day where anybody can come in anything and drive the ring..."
TF days are special days when regular people can drive their cars on the Nürburgring track. It's a chance for car lovers to experience the excitement of driving on a famous race track.
TF days, or 'Touristfahrten' days, are specific times when the Nürburgring allows the public to drive on the track with their own vehicles. This event is popular among car enthusiasts who want to experience the track firsthand.
"...I have to start with Nurburgring news, which is not something I think I've said before in the podcast. And that is the ring. One of our very favorite places. One of my very favorite tracks has this crazy thing called TF days..."
The Nürburgring is a well-known race track in Germany where people can drive their cars. It's famous for being very challenging and beautiful. There's a part of the track called the 'Nordschelife' that many car enthusiasts love to drive on.
The Nürburgring is a famous racetrack in Germany known for its challenging layout and scenic backdrop. It's often used for testing performance cars and hosts various racing events. The 'Nordschelife' is a specific section of the track that is open to the public for tourist drives.
"...but motorcycles can continue to experience the Nords Life as part of guided tours on professionally organized training sessions for a safe yet intense Nords Life experience..."
The Nords Life is a famous part of the Nürburgring track that is very long and has many twists and turns. It's a popular place for car fans to test their driving skills and see how fast their cars can go.
The Nords Life, or Nordschleife, is a specific and challenging part of the Nürburgring track. It's known for its long length and complex turns, making it a favorite among racing enthusiasts and a benchmark for performance cars.
"...you can sign up right now through actually hooked on driving. But you get there by going to everyday driver.com on the adventures tab."
Hooked on Driving is a company that sets up events where car lovers can drive on racetracks and learn from instructors. It's a fun way to enjoy driving safely.
Hooked on Driving is a company that organizes driving events and track days for automotive enthusiasts, providing opportunities for drivers to experience their cars in a controlled environment with professional instruction.
"...the biggest event of the year for hooked on driving and everyday driver right here, the 1000th podcast track days road trips, circuit of the Americas in Austin, Koda."
Circuit of the Americas is a racetrack in Austin, Texas, where many big racing events happen, including Formula 1. It's designed to be exciting for both drivers and fans.
Circuit of the Americas (COTA) is a modern racetrack located in Austin, Texas, known for hosting various motorsport events, including Formula 1 races. It features a diverse layout with elevation changes and a mix of high-speed and technical corners.
"...the biggest event of the year for hooked on driving and everyday driver right here, the 1000th podcast track days road trips..."
Track days are special events where you can drive your car on a racetrack. It's a safe place to go fast and learn how to handle your car better.
Track days are events where car enthusiasts can take their personal vehicles onto a racetrack to experience high-performance driving in a safe environment. Participants often receive instruction and can test the limits of their cars.
"...our last event for today's podcast is Watkins Glen for July 4th weekend..."
Watkins Glen is another well-known race track in New York where many car races take place. It's famous for its beautiful scenery and exciting race events.
Watkins Glen International is a road course located in Watkins Glen, New York, famous for its scenic views and challenging layout. It hosts a variety of racing events, including NASCAR and sports car races, and is a popular destination for motorsport fans.
"...But of course, the HPD ease that HOD is famous for. Get your car on track..."
HPDE means High-Performance Driving Experience, where you can drive your car on a race track and learn how to handle it better at high speeds.
HPDE stands for High-Performance Driving Experience, which is a type of event where drivers can take their cars on a racetrack to improve their driving skills and experience high-speed driving in a controlled environment.
EVs stands for electric vehicles, which are cars that run on electricity instead of gas. They are better for the environment and can save money on fuel.
EVs, or electric vehicles, are cars that are powered entirely by electricity rather than gasoline or diesel. They are known for being more environmentally friendly and often have lower operating costs.
"But I finally did add an EV to the fleet. The new Tesla Model 3, it was just an easy de facto, genuinely good car."
The Tesla Model 3 is an electric car that is popular for being fun to drive and having a lot of technology. It has a simple design inside and is considered very safe.
The Tesla Model 3 is a compact electric sedan that has gained popularity for its performance, range, and advanced technology features. It is known for its minimalist interior and high safety ratings.
"...as a commuter, something that is insanely efficient, something so efficient that I theorize you can really live with it by plugging it into just a normal wall outlet..."
An EV is a car that runs on electricity instead of gas. This means you can charge it at home and it doesn't produce exhaust fumes like regular cars do.
EV stands for electric vehicle, which is powered entirely by electricity rather than gasoline or diesel. They are known for being more environmentally friendly and often have lower operating costs compared to traditional vehicles.
"...not quite. I mean, Nissan Leaf was early. So everyone was like, wow, Nissan's really going to get it..."
The Nissan Leaf is an electric car that was one of the first to be sold widely. It's designed for everyday use and is known for being affordable and practical.
The Nissan Leaf is one of the first mass-market electric vehicles, known for its practicality and affordability. It has been a significant player in the EV market, offering a decent range and features suitable for everyday driving.
"Another question I commonly get is what's my favorite EV? Well, my favorite EV I've ever driven is still the old Tesla Roadster, which is something to your release."
The Tesla Roadster is a fast electric sports car that was one of the first of its kind. It was known for being able to go really far on a single charge.
The Tesla Roadster is an all-electric sports car that was Tesla's first production vehicle, known for its impressive performance and range for an electric vehicle at the time of its release.
"If I'm driving, I don't want to also be fighting with software. And as we can see, more and more cars are going more and more touch screen, taking buttons away."
A touch screen is a screen that you can touch to control things, like in a smartphone or tablet. In cars, it’s used to change settings instead of using buttons.
A touch screen is a display that allows users to interact with a device by touching the screen directly. In cars, touch screens are increasingly used to control various functions, replacing traditional buttons and knobs.
"They had, you know, intriguing cars because of straight line speed. And that's really all people cared about was like, oh, what's this year 60?"
0-60 time tells you how fast a car can go from a stop to 60 miles per hour. It's a way to see how quick a car is compared to others.
0-60 time is a common performance metric that measures how quickly a car can accelerate from a complete stop to 60 miles per hour. It's often used to compare the acceleration capabilities of different vehicles.
"Okay. So I see you and Kyle as both performance drivers. But as you just identified up to now, EVs have just meant, well, we made the S-Class or the E-Class or the current model as an EV now."
"Okay. So I see you and Kyle as both performance drivers. But as you just identified up to now, EVs have just meant, well, we made the S-Class or the E-Class or the current model as an EV now."
"But I think with the I-5N that is now in general, the ON-8-5 is selling more and stealing Tesla sales from what I understand. But the I-5N, they did their N thing onto an EV, which as it turns out, is really quite good."
The Hyundai Ioniq 5 N is a sporty electric car that is designed to be fun to drive, not just practical. It has special features that make it handle better on the road compared to regular electric cars.
The Hyundai Ioniq 5 N is a performance-oriented electric vehicle that builds on the standard Ioniq 5 model, incorporating enhancements for better driving dynamics and handling. It represents Hyundai's commitment to electrifying their performance lineup.
"...not just performance and name only where it's straight line speed, but performance that means cornering, handling something really quite delightful to drive and is engaging to enthusiasts."
Straight line speed is how fast a car can go in a straight line, like when you press the gas pedal to speed up quickly. It's just one part of what makes a car fun to drive, as it doesn't show how well the car can turn or handle curves.
Straight line speed refers to a vehicle's ability to accelerate quickly in a straight path, typically measured by metrics like 0-60 mph times. While important, it does not encompass a car's overall performance, which also includes handling and cornering capabilities.
"...it did super well at Pike's Peak, Randy Pubes couldn't overheat as hard as he tried..."
Pike's Peak is a mountain in Colorado where cars race to the top. It's known for being a tough race that tests how well cars can perform.
Pike's Peak is a famous mountain in Colorado known for its annual auto race, the Pikes Peak International Hill Climb. This event challenges vehicles to race up the mountain, testing their performance and handling under extreme conditions.
"...I have my complaints about software, but they do the EV thing,..."
An electric vehicle, or EV, is a car that runs on electricity instead of gasoline. They are better for the environment and can save money on fuel.
An electric vehicle (EV) is a type of vehicle that is powered entirely or partially by electricity, using electric motors instead of traditional internal combustion engines. EVs are known for being more environmentally friendly and often have lower operating costs compared to gasoline vehicles.
"...you could get the loophole with the lease. And so now, most leases are three years..."
Leasing a car means you pay to use it for a few years instead of buying it. When the lease ends, you give the car back to the dealer.
A lease is a financial agreement where a person pays to use a vehicle for a specific period, typically 2-3 years, without owning it. At the end of the lease, the vehicle is returned to the dealer.
"But your limit, your mileage cap is 7,500 miles a year. Wow. So it can't be your primary car."
A mileage cap is the maximum number of miles you can drive a leased car each year without paying extra fees. If you drive more than this limit, you might have to pay extra money when you return the car.
A mileage cap is a limit set by leasing companies on the number of miles a leased vehicle can be driven during the lease term. Exceeding this limit can result in additional fees at the end of the lease.
"I also noticed, sorry, in the midst of the weeds of this. Stellantis is offering."
Stellantis is a big car company that makes many different brands of cars. They were formed when two companies, Fiat Chrysler and PSA Group, combined.
Stellantis is a multinational automotive manufacturing corporation formed from the merger of Fiat Chrysler Automobiles and PSA Group. It produces a variety of vehicles under different brands, including Jeep, Dodge, and Peugeot.
"They're offering zero percent financing on many of their cars up to six years."
Zero percent financing means you can borrow money to buy a car without having to pay any extra money in interest. It helps keep your monthly payments lower.
Zero percent financing means that a buyer can take out a loan to purchase a car without paying any interest over the loan term. This can make monthly payments lower and more affordable.
"And now every car company seems to be considering doing both powertrains for every model. Yeah."
Powertrains are the parts of a car that make it move, like the engine and the system that sends power to the wheels. It's important because different cars can have different types of power sources, like gasoline or electricity.
Powertrains refer to the components that generate power and deliver it to the road, including the engine and transmission. In the context of automotive discussions, it's often about the different types of engines and drivetrains available for a vehicle.
ICE means Internal Combustion Engine, which is the kind of engine that runs on gas or diesel. It's what most cars have used for a long time before electric cars became popular.
ICE stands for Internal Combustion Engine, which is the traditional type of engine that runs on gasoline or diesel. It contrasts with electric vehicles (EVs) that use electric motors powered by batteries.
Gas powered pickup trucks are trucks that run on gasoline. They're often used for heavy-duty tasks and can carry a lot of weight, making them great for work or outdoor activities.
Gas powered pickup trucks are vehicles that use an internal combustion engine running on gasoline. They are popular for their towing capacity and versatility, often used for work and recreation.
"...And then they introduced electric cars that drive exactly the same."
Electric cars are vehicles that run on electricity instead of gasoline or diesel. They use batteries to power an electric motor, making them more environmentally friendly.
Electric cars are vehicles that are powered entirely by electricity, using batteries instead of traditional fuel. They are becoming increasingly popular due to their environmental benefits and lower operating costs.
"but I think Kia must be pretty well up there. It's practically the same car."
Kia is also a car company from South Korea, similar to Hyundai. They make a variety of cars and are known for their modern designs and good value.
Kia is another South Korean automotive manufacturer that shares many platforms and technologies with Hyundai. They are recognized for their stylish designs and competitive pricing.
"I'm chasing four seat convertibles for you mostly. Now, I do want to say that the Jaguar F-Type, not a four seat convertible, but I think it is an overlooked car. It's underappreciated."
"dropping off into the wheel wells, and then all the details aside, you walk around the car, the ductile, that kind of stuff. And then, yeah, I mean, a lot of 9.11s, I see darker colors, and I think, okay, it's very subdued, and you're saying very classy, elegant, reserved, but that's not what that car can do."
"... 03 is when they released the Z-Car. That was the 350Z. Now that one actually had a real automatic and a..."
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Love the more hate them, everyone has an opinion on cars. But we believe we're all one great car away from being our enthusiast. So we're here to help you find a car you love. And let it take us to everything else in life. I'm Paul. I'm Todd and this is the everyday driver car to me. Welcome back everybody. Thanks for being here with us on the podcast Happy Tuesday and we are back for another one in the studio which we're excited about but speaking of in studio. This is podcast 974.
podcast 975 will be a live podcast. All questions. So look for that on our test drive channel. We'll send all the links. We'll do the whole thing we're live. Those are always nutty. This is not an all non-car questions. This is actual car questions on our car podcast. But it's going to go quick. So standby for that. Of course, that'll be released in audio only starting on Friday morning but Thursday night on YouTube. That'll be our live podcast. We have a little bit of news up top. Then we have a cool guest. And then we have car debates and questions. And the whole thing is
happening here. But I have to start with Nurburgring news, which is not something I think I've said before in the podcast. And that is the ring. One of our very favorite places. One of my very favorite tracks has this crazy thing called TF days to listen to
Martin, which is a fantastic word. I did want to say the word. That is the day where anybody can come in anything and drive the ring. But not anymore. They are taking the capability of you to take a motorcycle on TF days. Motorcycles are being banned from TF days.
They want to make the driving experience safer. And their press release says there's different driving dynamics of two versus four wheelers. Really? That's what a revelation to arrive at.
So the tourist drives are for car drivers only, but motorcycles can continue to experience the Nords Life as part of guided tours on professionally organized training sessions for a safe yet intense Nords Life experience. It's always going to be intense. Of course, no matter what you do. It will always be intense.
But the Grand Prix circuit is tourist drives for cars and motorbikes. They're expanding their days. But that also brings us to some events that we have coming up.
First of all is the everyday driver pilgrimage trip. That annual drivers bucket list trip from April 27th to May 1st, 2025.
We have a little bit of space left. There's still space, but it's going to close here in early March. So this is your chance to decide to come with us. It's going to be amazing.
Again, that is a day on spa, a road tour day through the German wine country. It's a fantastic day. It's like driving through what Disney got inspired by. It's really, really cool.
And then a day on the ring, you can get instructors. You've got levels of cars. You can sign up right now through actually hooked on driving. But you get there by going to everyday driver.com on the adventures tab. We're excited to have more people with us, but the people we've already got good people going. It's going to be awesome.
Speaking of hooked on driving, we're going to be at the Ridge Motorsports Park March 7th and 8th, 2025. That is the Pacific Northwest opening event for 2025. We'll be there. Come see us if you're in the Seattle area. We'd love to see you. Get your car on track hooked on driving.com.
But there's another European adventure. The hooked on driving adventure is July 5th through July 11th, 2025. It's the ring. It's spa, Frankershaw. But it is also adding circuit zanvort in the Netherlands to the west of Amsterdam right there on the coast.
Yeah, so we are adding that track. That's a more intense more intensity. Yes, that's longer. It's going to be nuts. It's more involved. We would love to have you consider that one hooked on driving.com for all the details there. And you can come with us on that one.
Keep in mind also in mid April, the 11th through the 13th. That is the opening salvo the first time ever hooked on driving in the Midwest. I'm going to be their hedge hollow southeast of Kansas City.
I will be there at hedge hollow. If you're in within 300 miles of hedge hollow, you should come. It's such a cool track. I keep hearing about it. I'm desperate to go. I can't wait to be there. Again, that's April 11th through 13th also on hooked on driving.
The biggest event of the year for hooked on driving and everyday driver right here, the 1000th podcast track days road trips, circuit of the Americas in Austin, Koda.
I have to keep catching myself because I keep saying Koda and people look at me blank. What is that? I think by now among not just enthusiasts, but everybody should understand this act.
Yes, but there's also the word Koda CODA. And that was also an Oscar winning film, the Apple champion. People just was also.
Koda means lots of other things. TV. Yes, it was terrible. Sure it was. I used to see one driving around when I first moved here. So circuit of the Americas is also pronounced Kota.
So I have to be very careful. But that's what's happening. We're going to be there May 31st and June 1st for a two day monster track days. But we're also road tripping prior. We're road tripping post. There's 1000th podcast.
I'm going to be exhausted after those two weeks. I've concluded already the Creed. But our last event for today's podcast is Watkins Glen for July 4th weekend, July 4th, 5th and 6th 2025.
I didn't realize Watkins is the same length as Koda. It's 3.4 miles long. It is a big track. And among the many events going on include professional fireworks.
There's going to be DJ live music. Camping is available. A big car show. But of course, the HPD ease that HOD is famous for. Get your car on track. Watkins Glen for July 4th weekend.
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Whether you should be or not, you're probably shopping for your next car. Or dreaming, or just looking, just like we are. That's why you need to use Autotemphas.com.
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Whenever we're looking for ourselves or for you, we use Autotemphas.com slash every day Autotemphas. All the cars, one search.
Since it is Tuesday, our topic Tuesday actually has a guest. Our good friend Jordan Sheifer is here. Jordan, thanks for coming back in.
Glad to be here.
Yeah, man. Thanks for coming.
Jordan has filmed with us on many, many things you've seen his work on our last big Sierra piece. You saw a lot of his great drone work. Many of you complimented it because he's a phenomenal drone pilot and a great shooter.
He's also, because we are a small crew, folks. It's Paul and I and Chance and Jordan attacking the world on these on these road trip films.
Exactly. You got to like the people you're with and it's a great group and we do that. But Jordan, you may also know works without a spec based in Denver.
And they have become the definitive voice on EVs. So we're excited to have him here because you and I, Paul have been talking about the fact that the industry is pivoting.
Yeah. In a lot of ways.
Yes, there are all these manufacturers are going, you know that's that both feet or head first or whatever body part we chose to dive into EVs.
Everybody was all in. We're all surfacing all in. We're all asking for a life preserver. We're backing out of this idea. It's out of the pool.
Totally. Everybody out of the pool. But but EVs also aren't going anywhere. And I just thought it'd be cool to hear from you, Jordan.
What is the state from your perspective? What is the state of EVs? Where are we? Where aren't we? And I have to preface you in one way.
You have to tell us what your personal cars are because that also sets the scene very well.
Well, yeah, for a while, I've been working without a spec for like four and a half years. And for a while, people were like, well, what EV use driving?
I was like, well, I don't have one because I'm always driving them for work. So naturally, I want to go home, clean my head out, which means drive my manual combustion meata or my manual combustion Jeep.
Perfect. Love it. But I finally did add an EV to the fleet. The new Tesla Model 3, it was just an easy de facto, genuinely good car.
I say cars. Some people do call it microwave on wheels. I see that as well. Just depends what you're doing.
Yeah. But the technology seems to be so far ahead of some of the other cars. And as a tech junkie, that's kind of what I cared about.
I didn't need the EV to solve my driving dynamics love because I had a meata for that, which is how turbo and it's easy to go drive that as much as I can.
But as a commuter, something that is insanely efficient, something so efficient that I theorize you can really live with it by plugging it into just a normal wall outlet, which is another video I'm hoping to do.
Interesting. Okay. Yeah, three cars that are very, very, all very different. And I think that's a pretty good three car solution for myself.
But I love, I mean, meata and Wrangler, I mean, you're really leaning into, we've talked with this before. Many people that are coming out of a Wrangler look at meatas and vice versa.
I can't believe those are two vehicles that actually get a crush on, but they do. And you own them both. So I think that is a great grounding perspective on your perspective on all of these cars.
But so why do you think that the Model 3 is out front or Tesla in general? And then who else is really competing?
Yeah, well, we've fortunately, we've come a long ways, but Tesla has that long ways to their advantage. I mean, they were the first to market.
Yeah, not quite. I mean, Nissan leaf was early. So everyone was like, wow, Nissan's really going to get it. And now look at how we're talking about Nissan.
No, that's true. This is true. They didn't. Nissan there no more. But the, the, so the leaf was ahead of, well, I don't say a heavens time. It was just at the time.
Tesla seemed like it was ahead of its time, but also was, you know, expensive and aspirational. Yeah, yeah.
And still it's my favorite day. Another question I commonly get is what's my favorite EV? Well, my favorite EV I've ever driven is still the old Tesla Roadster, which is something to your release.
Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that, that's like where we came from. And by the way, we do have a Coda out of spec if you want to review it. No one would watch it, but it would be...
No one would watch it, but that's funny. There you go. Other ways to spell Coda. There it is. That's what we're talking about.
Is it sitting? Is it dead currently? It has 60 miles on it. Kyle bought it brand new, like two years ago, because the dealer that sold them had one in a shed and they forgot about it.
Didn't he buy it for like what you would normally tip on dinner? Well, one dollar. They had to legally have to sell it. They wanted to give it to them, but they were like, we have to sell it.
So the only thing to be levable. All right, onward. Yeah. But Tesla has the... I think just as a software enthusiast, I mean, I came from more of the tech world.
I just... I have low patience for... If I'm driving, I don't want to also be fighting with software. And as we can see, more and more cars are going more and more touch screen, taking buttons away.
It's frustrating everyone. And Hyundai recently was like, no, we'll add buttons back, which is having making some people happy.
Yeah. And part of that is because I think Hyundai and Kia, like their software is not that amazing. Lexus, Nissan, but they all have fine software.
But it takes a bit of a learning curve. And it's just frustrating if you're commonly renting cars or whatever. Whereas Tesla has that software kind of completely nailed down.
And commonly, they've been considered a software company that also makes cars. I believe that, yes.
And so that's kind of the approach they started with. And I think for a while, they were maybe floundering about a bit. They had, you know, intriguing cars because of straight line speed.
And that's really all people cared about was like, oh, what's this year 60? Wait, does it turn? Does it do anything else? And it kind of felt like for a while, the muscle car term was shifting.
For sure. Yeah.
The plan on T100D is like, oh, they're beating hellcats. Okay, this is the new muscle car.
Yep, it's the YouTube drag race car for sure. Yeah. And people got bored of that. So I think they're happy.
They're so glad. I hope so.
They're being forced by the industry to adopt more, more car things in general. So the new model three was also just driving dynamics wise, actually pretty good.
I mean, I think the old one was also fine, but it just also wasn't super inspiring. And people had complaints about the suspension. And they were, I think they were still figuring out how to build cars.
You know, there's a lot of news of like Tesla's having building issues. They had to build a tent to build cars in cars coming out the tent where it mixed.
Yeah, we've talked about that.
But it doesn't go on that reality. Yeah, for sure.
So now it feels like they've really started to dial it in and having, I just drove the brand new model Y as well, the code name Juniper.
That was also like, oh, they finally seem to figure out how to build like a really good CV, CV, whatever you call it.
Okay.
So yeah, it's a software that the phone app is increasingly becoming a piece of ownership, something I never thought about.
I mean, I don't mind me out at my Wrangler. No idea what software is.
Yeah, sure. Yeah.
So it's been, it took a learning curve to have this Tesla and my driveway.
And for the first month I kept forgetting, well, the first month I had it was winter and I kept forgetting.
I could pre-warm the app on the phone.
Sure.
Set all the temperature and everything I wanted.
I was like, oh, that's right. I can do that.
I just used to getting into a cold car.
Yeah.
And then by the time I get home is when it's warmed up.
Sure. And then you turn it off. Yeah, that's what's winter. Yeah.
Yeah. So now having no warm up time, I mean, there's a lot of benefits.
And so I think I have this unique, I'm approaching it from this unique perspective of being like a car enthusiast.
A year ahead, I like to do all my own work, but still seeing a place where EVs do exist.
And that's I think what the industry is realizing.
For a while, it was just early adopters.
Like the tech guys, the non-car people were like, okay, maybe now I do care about cars.
But now I think they've captured a lot of that audience.
So it's, I don't know if the industry is pivoting like reverse in such a way.
It's just unpivoting some of the way it pivoted before.
It's self-correcting, right?
Okay. So I see you and Kyle as both performance drivers.
But as you just identified up to now, EVs have just meant, well, we made the S-Class or the E-Class
or the current model as an EV now.
We offer something similar. Most of the time, it's been a people mover.
But I think with the I-5N that is now in general, the ON-8-5 is selling more and stealing Tesla sales from what I understand.
But the I-5N, they did their N thing onto an EV, which as it turns out, is really quite good.
But now our car companies is the place where at now as an industry, as enthusiast,
is the industry sort of realizing we can't just make an EV and say it's great.
I mean, I understand, yes, pick up trucks that industry has been, I suppose, conquered.
But for now, our car company is going to start making the performance models, not just performance and name only where it's straight line speed,
but performance that means cornering, handling something really quite delightful to drive and is engaging to enthusiasts.
Or there's the Safari take on things like the Ionic just released, the Safari version.
Or is there now, okay, we still have to have people movers.
All the cool, fun categories that resonate with enthusiasts, sports cars, off-roaders, Safari, all these categories,
our car company is going to realize, we've got to make something that competes well.
We can't just put a flat four-inch battery on the floor and plop another car on it, like Volkswagen does.
Oh, there's the shot of the day, nicely done, good job.
I had to work it in, but my tire is directed now to Nissan instead of Volkswagen.
Volkswagen is a different day.
Nissan is, it was just car, it was just a shape, and it was electric, and that was good enough.
But it is no longer good enough to take sales from either out of your pocket, just to buy one, or steal sales from an ice car.
I think it's important that brands do have this halo car that people can aspire to, and for a long time, and still for most brands,
that is a combustion car of some sorts, flagship.
But now, what you've seen with Hyundai, a lot of people can't really put to word what the gas Hyundai cars are.
They get all the names confused, and this is true.
They're all pretty good.
That was intentional.
It worked, everyone.
They're all pretty good.
They do people moving things, but having the Ionic 5 in as a flagship car, it did super well at Pike's Peak,
Randy Pubes couldn't overheat as hard as he tried, which is a common issue with EVs that are doing intense things.
They're approaching the engineering perspective from a really interesting way, and it is hard to make them extremely capable,
and wait, they can't really do the GT3RS approach.
So what else can you do?
So with the Ionic 5 in, they tried to make it more intriguing, and huge wing, simulate shifting, and it's confusing that it's a SUV.
But that really did a lot for Ionic 5 sales in general, and Ionic 5 is now, or at least Hyundai, is now number 2 behind Tesla,
which for a while, they were number 5.
That was fast.
They've really exploded onto the best-selling EVs behind the quote-unquote king,
but I think they're really looking at the industry as a whole and thinking, this is what we have to do.
We have to do future-proof tech, so they're one of the few 800-volt architecture they can fast charge really well.
I have my complaints about software, but they do the EV thing, the tech thing, the car thing pretty well,
and they have that Ionic 5 in, that very few people are going to buy, but the fact that you know it exists,
and you're driving a similar-ish car, in just normal Ionic 5, is intriguing for a lot of buyers, and it looks different.
I think what EVs did for a while wrong with the leaf was like, oh, we made it look weird, and EVs had to be weird.
Now, we're getting to that place where we're like, wait, we can make them look completely different.
They don't have to have the same hood size, because you're not fitting an engine in there,
and so you're just pushing the cabin more forward and more room inside, which is unique from an S-Class.
They're trying to create new ways to sell them, because you're right, I think they already captured a lot of the initial market,
and now it's like, how do we find a new market?
We saw kind of a bubble in COVID, we saw what the tech company is, hiring chaos right now, for sure.
Everybody's going to work from home, it's going to be great.
2025, everybody's going to be like, you better come back or we're fired, you're about to scratch that.
Right, the bubble popped, and then people started getting laid off.
This isn't quite the same analogy, the bubble, they're not selling less EVs than they were before,
it's just they're selling at a slower rate, but they're still growing.
So the positive year of a year is still more and more than ever.
But it hasn't been that crazy shift we saw in like 2022, 2023, where everyone was buying them.
The car market was like a fire, and now it's, we're seeing used EVs extremely cheap, plummeting, which will be interesting,
because now they're doing all these crazy lease deals, you know, for a while the federal tax credit only applied to leases in some cars.
The loophole.
So where if the car didn't qualify because the battery wasn't made here or whatever, you could get the loophole with the lease.
And so now, most leases are three years, in three years I think we're going to see a huge bubble again of cheap used EVs.
Of course, it's already happening, but I totally get that.
Maybe going to win the Dodge Charger Daytona leases low is 249 with 4K down 0 APR for six years.
Who's a taker? Who wants the Dodge charge?
Listen to this Dodge Charger Daytona.
This is Dodge's brand new don't you want an electric muscle car that did not get reviewed well initially.
But anyway, they are leasing it for 250 bucks a month.
Is that a spec can I get one?
Well, so that was Kyle was invited to that event this first time.
He was not a fan.
No, it's like the first Dodge event we were really invited to.
It's like the first EV that was like a flagship and then he gave it a really pretty scathing review.
And then we didn't get invited to the Wagner S event for some reason.
Weird.
It's very strange.
I can't believe that happened.
So then we found a dealer and did the same thing instead just from the dealer.
Yeah.
Of course you did.
Yeah.
The salesperson was in the back seat.
It was just like listening to us.
Criticized.
If this or oh my gosh.
That's funny.
That's great.
I love it.
Well, I did also notice on this lease deal.
Did you see this?
But your limit, your mileage cap is 7,500 miles a year.
Wow.
So it can't be your primary car.
That's a problem for all the coast to coast road trips you guys do.
Yeah.
That might be a problem.
You get that done in like a month and a half.
7,500 miles in a year.
That means it's your play car.
Who's going to actually lease it as your play car?
That means you can't drive it like a normal car.
No.
No, base 10 to 12,000 a year for sure.
That's baseline.
Anyway, but that shows you how much that car is not selling.
I also noticed, sorry, in the midst of the weeds of this.
Stellantis is offering.
They're not the only one I've seen this from.
They're offering zero percent financing on many of their cars
up to six years.
We are back to those world.
Wow.
The APR of the rest of the world may be nuts.
But people are trying to move cars again.
Anyway, onward.
Right.
We'll speed up Stellantis.
The F-500-E production halted for like four weeks.
Because they weren't selling enough.
Oh, it's true.
I'm worried about.
The traffic standards are a little whacked out right now.
I'm worried about the Stellantarians.
Yes.
All this stuff has been hit being questionably reviewed.
And the Dodge Charger EV is being kind of backpedaled.
Now they're going to have a combustion or hybrid variant.
Yeah.
Which they expect to sell a lot better, which is interesting.
Totally.
And you need to tell you because it's all backpedal.
It's all backpedal.
It's all backpedal.
Disappeared.
They were at war with the enthusiasts.
Mm-hmm.
But again, you have to treat it like a business.
But you also have to give enthusiasts what they want.
I still think it's enough.
Even if you're a buyer that doesn't buy one
to see that it's offered and it's aspirational.
And now every car company seems to be considering
doing both powertrains for every model.
Yeah.
Okay.
Sports car.
Ice and EV version.
Yeah.
Okay.
So pick up truck.
We've got gas powered pickup trucks.
We've got EV picker trucks.
What do you want?
Who are you?
For sure.
Pick up powertrains.
So that is double the production practically for everything.
Double the engineering.
If not double the production.
For sure.
So your dollars are spread even more thinly
than you would to not let BMW's super niche.
I said it on camera.
And still your business.
BMW.
All of their cars now drive the same.
This was the subversive thing that BMW did with all their
internal combustion cars is they got more and more and more mute.
And we were all like, what are you doing?
What are you doing?
And then they introduced electric cars that drive exactly the same.
Yes.
So all of the BMW don't line up drives the same.
But I'm curious something you said earlier, Jordan.
You said that the Ionic 5 in is a aspirational halo electric car.
And I actually agree with that.
I think it's a great point.
And it's given optics for like a better way to put it.
Visibility to the rest of their EV lineup.
Are they doing it?
Is it just optics?
Are they actually doing it second best to Tesla?
And then who else is doing it well?
And who's not doing well?
I mean, all the Korean cars are genuinely pretty good.
So Hyundai may have the second place barely,
but I think Kia must be pretty well up there.
It's practically the same car.
It looks very different.
For sure.
I appreciate when platform sharing makes such a big change in the design.
Because otherwise it's like, well, I guess just pick one.
I don't know.
Yeah.
You're right.
That's what it is.
I know.
If I ever get invited to an electric taus of it, I'm bringing you.
I noticed that taus that we had just in the back door.
Those cool tailpipes that were bright work like nope.
They're not tailpipes.
It's a sad little tiny downpipe.
A little sink faucet.
Underneath the bumper.
Of course it is.
Yes, Q5 thing.
Yes, it did.
That still annoys me to no end.
But yes.
The platforms are endless.
And because Volkswagen's got a huge portfolio.
Say it and all the European brands we don't get.
Just keep plopping the bodies on the same thing.
Right.
And they're doing decently well, though.
And it's kind of a decent car.
It's kind of so fun to me.
You turned away.
Well, that's the EV side of things versus the car side of things versus the software.
It's like you have to look at so many different perspectives.
That's why when someone asked me what EV should I buy.
I have to ask them like 12 open-ended questions.
Because if they just, if they have a RAV4 and they like their Toyota dealer.
Then I might suggest a BZ4X, which hurts me as an EV super nerd.
Because as an EV, that's like the worst one.
Yeah.
But it plays into their, it's a Toyota car.
And if you charge it at home, then all the stuff we criticize about it being poor at DC fast charging and stuff doesn't really apply that much.
Sure.
So it's kind of like really depends what who the person is and what they want.
But in general, Toyota, Subaru, Honda, they're all kind of near the bottom.
I mean, Honda will be interesting because they're currently just borrowing a GM car.
Yes, yes.
And so, yeah, if you want car play with Honda, you get the Honda.
Then you have a GM, the GM equinox, but now named a prologue and now available with Apple CarPlay.
So what happens at GM dealers when customers ask if this comes with Apple CarPlay, what does the salesperson say?
If you just visit your Honda dealer, I think there's one right over there.
What do they do?
What do they do?
What do they do?
There has to be like the Civic S.I.
Or sorry, the Italian market.
Well, there is a company that does make car play for GM, but it's not GM, but I think it has to be installed at GM dealer.
I'm really confused.
What if they're just taking the Honda chips?
Yes, absolutely.
If the parts counter a Honda.
Yes, plug into the USB port on your dash.
Download the software patch and look car play in your GM product.
That's probably out there.
Bob's your uncle.
Why not?
It's like car play.
What will Honda do when they have their own cars?
Because I think early on, everyone was thinking in the 2010s, like, okay, Honda and Toyota are going to come out swinging because they were famous for early amazing hybrids.
Yeah.
And drivers cars.
I mean, Honda.
For sure.
I mean, out of person, I still admire and look up to the S2000 and the SX.
Sure, yeah.
Where are those cars now?
And, you know, Honda is making the incorrect waves, I think.
They have the new RSX coming out.
And all the car fans, remember the RSX is the fun two door car from the 90s.
Yep.
And now it's a CV.
Of course, they meant to be, she eclipsed it.
Yeah.
For sure.
Yeah.
That name, that cool name that you were associated with.
It's not that big of a warning now.
Sorry.
But then they have, you know, the vacuum cleaner looking prototypes from CES that are going
to be coming out next year, apparently.
Oh, goody.
So will they look back?
But they're not learning their lesson?
I don't know.
Why?
I don't know.
The jury is out on Honda and Toyota for me.
I like those cars, those brands, sorry, for a lot of reasons.
Yeah, yeah.
But as an EV enthusiast, it's just never one I recommend.
I'm looking at all the future EVs that they're promising.
You know, it's gotten better.
We figured our stuff out.
No, no.
We're going to do better.
You know, Rivian with that R3.
Is it the R3?
Right.
The R3X was that cool off-road.
Yes, that's right.
That's right.
The issue was they announced it now over a year ago.
And since then Ford was like, you know what?
We're going to rallyify the Machi.
And then Hyundai was like, we're going to do the Ionic 5XRT.
And everyone's just beating him out.
Beating Rivian to their own punch a little bit here.
Which is, but those are cool.
It's a different way to package an EV to a different audience member that maybe was everything
about EVs.
And now they're like, wait, they can do off-road rally stuff.
Okay, I'll give it a second thought.
Well, I think the coolest thing about all of this, all of this pivoting, honestly.
The thing I like about it the most is, we always talk tools for jobs on this podcast.
And I think it's really hard to argue anything but an EV for a stop and go commute.
I don't understand why you do anything else.
If that's the sole purpose of your vehicle.
If your purpose for a vehicle is, I'm going to sit on the 405, get an EV.
What are we doing?
You know what I mean?
Sure.
But then, of course, are you, I mean, Jordan's over here with his Miata and his Wrangler.
He's got both sides of the convertible world cover.
He does.
So what is your usage?
And I know people that have got some amazing enthusiast cars and they have a Tesla for their
commuter.
And I get it.
It makes sense to me.
I like the range of stuff.
And I think that was the thing that we all kind of pushed back on.
Or still pushing back on on EV mandates is, it's only going to be this one thing.
Especially here in America.
It's like choice.
You can't tell us that they're only going to be one thing.
We're going to have like 55 choices.
Okay.
So I think that's the thing that I'm really liking about this shift in the market.
I am curious about something I'm pretty sure you can speak to.
And that is good and bad of Chinese EVs.
Well, I think a lot is good, but also it's hard because what of it is like tangential.
And I think it's good that, you know, the Ford CEO went to see China stuff.
RJ was at CES and the seeker booth with me looking at the battery.
And I was like, dude, take note.
Because ribbons don't charge very well.
Interesting.
What did he say to that?
I was like, he's like, I've just seen it.
Non-committal.
Yeah.
Got it.
Very, very easy.
Got it.
But I'm hoping everyone's starting to look at these Chinese EVs.
And I don't know if they'll really come here either soon or ever because it would
hurt the American car market, but also for the consumer make us happier because it would
force everyone else to play the ball a little harder.
Yeah.
Because you have these cars they're cheap, but also doing the charging and the range and stuff better.
The software is really, really good over there.
So Kyle, Kyle spent almost two weeks over there trying to review all sorts of things.
And that was his impression.
Even the driver assistance.
I mean, over here, Tesla, full self driving, even autopilot is the best bar none.
A lot of, a lot of other ones are gradually catching up, but over in China, it's like
Tesla's is like not even the top three.
Wow.
They have all these other systems and Tesla actually can't do FSD in China right now because
of some legal stuff, but they're working together.
Is it regulatory in North America and US more so than the tech is there, yes?
Yeah.
I think so.
So it's, I'm curious to see what happens with Chinese stuff and they're closer than we think.
I mean, I just spent a few days in Mexico City and every Uber was a BYD dolphin.
And I was like, this car's awesome.
And it's like so cheap.
So for a while, electric car adoption in the US was very slow and gradual because every car was unobtainium
because of the price tag.
Sure.
Like if it is your daily driver commuter that's just kind of soul suckingly getting you to work or whatever,
it's like no one wants to spend a hundred gram of that.
Agreed. That's great.
Great point now that all these sorts of EVs are coming out.
The used markets getting relatively flooded with them.
We do see all the EVs that have come out in the last two, three years,
like I said, are coming off least, least soon, which means they should be cheaper than ever,
which helps that consumer that really needs the benefits of electric being cheaper and everything.
But then you have the other issue, which I guess is the other facet of this whole equation is charging.
Sure.
I'm charging.
Yeah, that's super fun, isn't it?
That's a light topic.
It's a light topic where everything works.
If you watched our ice cream challenge where we had diesel hybrid and charging,
I get into this a little bit.
Honestly, with the lucid in spite of the fact that I had one of the most terrifying moments
I've ever had in the car and all I was doing was going slowly.
In spite of that, honestly, the lucid charged like we've all been led to believe it should all work.
Park car, plug-in, plug.
Oh, look, it's charging.
Oh, look, 10 minutes has gone by.
I've got plenty unplugged leave.
That's still kind of a fantasy world.
It's like when you watch a movie set in Los Angeles and it's that perfect Los Angeles day
and there's no traffic in the sun's out and everybody's beautiful and half of them are wearing half their clothes
and you're like, I would live in LA.
Or you watch a New York Christmas movie and you're like, oh, this is like this all the time.
Neither of those things are true.
Right.
But the fantasy exists and that was just totally what I experienced with the lucid, but that is not reality.
Right.
We have this, every company is trying to address charging and they're trying to think that they're going to solve it
and they're leaning on other people solving it which is a challenge.
Super working well there.
Yeah.
And you even see the Silverado EV on the website.
It shows a truck, Silverado EV pulling a trailer at a pull-through charger.
And there's like almost no, they found the one pull-through charger for that photo shoot.
But I love it.
Right.
And so now that I've done a lot of towing with EVs, it's like that's a huge challenge.
Not some people are talking about it.
But I know it's an edge case.
Most people are just getting somewhere not needing to tow.
But to address the challenge of like, okay, you want more and more people who are financially challenged to get access to clean energy and clean cars.
How do you solve the DC fast charging problem?
Because it's getting expensive for EV and just made news because they raised their prices more.
They had to.
And now a lot of cars are just as expensive to road trip as a combustion car.
For sure.
Yeah.
Sometimes more.
And now I think, you know, for a while it was like everyone's obsessed with the MPV of a car, of a gas car.
And then the EV was just an EV.
I think we're going to get into this realm where people are going to start paying attention to the new, you know, miles per gallon is gas cars.
Miles per kilowatt hour is the version for electric cars.
So you're going to start to get people who pay attention to that stuff.
My Tesla was getting four and a half miles per kilowatt hour on the way here.
Our Rivian on the other hand is average 1.3 miles per kilowatt hour, which is a huge difference.
Yeah.
You'd be spending three times more on charging just to get here.
And those people who statistically need the, I guess, cheaper electric car also may not have a home.
They may be in a shared home, which is really difficult, which don't always have level two charging million Americans live in an apartment building.
And then you're relying on, you know, especially in California.
Like in Colorado, not a huge deal.
There's so much DC fast charging and it's rarely full.
A lot of the non-Tesla chargers like Latra America, they're full more often.
But now that more and more companies can use Tesla's chargers, we're solving that problem.
But in California, it's still a problem because even Tesla is our full.
Yeah.
For sure.
Everything's full.
So I've met, like we went to a grocery store and just observed a charger for like an hour and a half.
Okay.
And it was the line was like six cars.
Well, it's a super fun day at work.
It's a stakeout.
It's like, it's exactly, it's a stakeout for electric chargers.
Somebody's got the binoculars, somebody's got the greasy food.
You're passing it back and forth.
It's awesome.
I love to know what these people thought of us because we actually, Kyle,
we're these creepy guys watching everyone.
We, me and Kyle pulled up in a pink box.
And we're just perfect.
Even better.
And all these EV people are just like angry at us being there because they think we're just making fun of them.
It's like, really, we're trying to observe the problem.
I don't know.
It's research.
Come back.
EV drivers in their natural habitat.
We're doing the voiceover.
We're doing the voiceover.
We love it.
It's great.
It's good stuff.
That's one of the markets where the challenge is the biggest.
Whereas in some other places, it's not a big issue.
And you know, for people who ask me if an EV works for them, that's one of the opening questions.
Like, well, can you charge at home and do you road trip?
If you can charge at home and don't road trip, it literally doesn't matter what EV you buy.
So test drive, like you guys say, like put your butts in the seats and like see what you care about.
Do you like that software?
Do you like this?
Sure.
Sure.
And then it's probably fine because most cars will just work and plug into your house and very few people drive more than 150 miles a day.
100 miles a day.
For sure.
But having something with the range like a lucid or even my model 3 where it's like, oh, I can do 350 miles between charges.
It's suddenly not that hard.
And if you do, you know, people complain about the time it takes to DC fast charge.
Like some cars are 30 minutes, 45 minutes, depending on how much you want to charge.
That is a problem.
But if you never do that and you can charge at home, then suddenly it's like if you go rent a gas car somewhere and you have to go get gas at a gas station, you're so inconvenienced.
Like you're not a car person.
That's your insist.
I've actually heard this.
I have heard this from people that are not car people and they end up back and forth.
And they feel like they're trying to start a fire with flint and steel.
They're like, what are we doing here?
Didn't we move on past this?
Why am I standing at a gas station?
Anyway, yeah.
I think a big challenge is just the awareness of all these things with EVs.
The terminology even like miles per kilowatt hour, like observing what that means.
Some cars measure in water hours per mile.
So it's like, that's a different metric.
Lot hours per mile.
I totally think so.
Watch to freedom, dude.
Anyway.
That's right.
That's right.
And then I guess the other aspect is, yeah, like where can you charge?
How can you charge them?
Just answering all those questions and like having people learn the whole EV on slot of things.
And it's, you know, dipping your toes in the water if you try a plug and hybrid.
Those sales are starting to increase.
Yeah.
Some people are starting to realize, wait, that's kind of the multi-tool that I need.
Yeah.
You can live with EV if your commute's small enough and it has enough range.
Or if you want to take the road trip and you sort of have a hybrid.
Yeah.
I'm trying to figure out how to ask this question.
And as much as I think your collection is thick with irony and so funny.
But you have driven more EVs.
I think certainly more than anybody that I know.
Certainly more than most people.
But there is the initial cost of a new EV.
But it seems like EVs have become kryptonite to the Porsche brand.
Tycons have, they're in a free fall.
The prices for Tycons.
You want to get a cheap good EV by a Tyconite.
Right.
But they don't have all the things, you know, they, they, they've, they're great to drive.
But, you know, not a lot of the metrics that what you look for in your reviews Jordan.
But on the other hand, here they are talking about the new 718 came in a boxer EV.
It's coming out, but they've got pivot and they've got to add the ice version of that.
Which means maybe a different new chassis.
Huge development dollars announced just for the year 2025.
Something north of 800 million just going back into combustion engines.
And yet they're still pursuing the EV.
But at what point does the second owner third owner, I mean, would you buy a new EV?
Would you wait for the second, you know, would you wait to be the second owner?
If so, what would you buy?
But that's less important than if you would actually be the buyer for a well used or lightly used EV.
I don't care.
But does that mean EVs are going to continue to make the Porsche effect?
They all seem like they're in a free fall use.
Everything just seems like it's not going to hold value.
So, is that across all brands?
Would you buy a second hand EV?
That's why everyone, the manufacturers are pivoting to less aggressive EV
because they're realizing like, oh, like the used market is the consumer's winning right now basically.
The people who want an EV, they're realizing not as much service.
They seem to last a while.
We now have data on really high mileage EVs, and you've got batteries with 300,000 miles on them.
Still holding three-fourths of a charge, which is still way more than your daily miles.
I mean, it's interesting to get all this data and figure out what were we paranoid about 10 years ago versus what's the reality now?
That's good. That's good.
So, I do think that's not on an annual basis.
I tell a lot of people to just look at a used EV in general.
Unless you really want some incentive that they offer with it, which for a while that's how they were moving them.
They were like, okay, this gives you three years of fast charging for free.
That's kind of a problem.
I think they should do it with that entirely because what you find out is people are just clogging chargers because it's free.
They don't even need the juice. They're just sitting there.
It's also a great parking space.
Right, and that, exactly.
I wish you were right. You're so right.
We've all driven by it.
We've all driven by it. It's electric only. We've all done it.
Yes.
And you have bolts sitting there for four hours in an electric America, a valuable spot.
Yes.
And they don't have the overage fees yet.
They need to start rolling this out, I think, because it all comes back somewhat to that helping the consumer learn.
Some people will go charge their EV when it's that 70%.
Because they're like, oh, I'm just going to charge it really.
Down to 70%.
Whatever am I going to do.
But the top 30%, or even the top 10% will charge just as fast as the first 90%.
Yeah, it trickle charges the upper part.
So I have to, my girlfriend always gets gas when she just below like two thirds of a tank.
And I have to retrain her because with an EV, that's the worst possible time.
And the best time to really, like, I rolled into the one charging stop on my way here today at two percent.
And that just, and then I rode that charging car.
You've also got a higher tolerance than most people.
Yeah.
Now you're tolerance is totally.
Yeah, I've driven one down to zero.
I didn't enjoy it.
I'll be honest.
Yeah, you went past here.
Yeah.
But I think, yeah, it's, it's helping people learn what, what's capable.
And it's interesting that some of the, you know, rental fleets are getting more EVs.
Interesting.
It hurts.
It hurts trying to sell a fast enough.
Please, please come take the, we'll pay you action right away.
Yeah, right.
So, you know, Kyle notoriously doesn't take good care of his cars.
And so seeing that his model three is 150,000 miles, almost no problems.
I'm like, okay, if that car survived, pretty much any car, even our hurts rentals probably.
Wow.
There you go.
All right, fair.
Wow, fair.
That's helpful.
But what we've learned here today, Paul, is that the answer is easy.
That's what we've learned.
There's just, there's no complication, but what I do like, and I said it earlier,
what I do like is that we are getting choice back.
Yeah, true.
You know, because I really do think that EVs, when you are, when you need what they do,
you can't top them.
It's like out minivaning a minivan.
When you need that, it's great.
And I actually like the plug-in hybrid thing, but we'll see where all that goes.
I was so hoping to get into the gasoline taxes versus what taxes are going to be introduced on EV owners.
Because that sounds like, that's really dissected.
That's another hour and a half podcast.
And Norway.
We worked there.
We lost the audience.
Yeah.
Kidding.
We'll have to save that for next week's.
Just kidding.
Join us.
It's funny.
Actually, on Thursday, join us for the live podcast.
Jordan, thanks for being here, man.
We really appreciate it.
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Our car debate comes to us from Brian in Florida.
He's worried about selling something and regretting it.
Brian, thank you for writing.
He has noticed that we enjoy smaller sports cars as do many of our listeners.
Yes, yes.
He's a little outside the box though with a search for a four seat luxury performance-oriented convertible.
Hmm, okay.
Who makes those?
Brian retired in late 2023, splits his time between Syracuse, New York, and Southwest, Florida.
And he's been thinking that it's time to replace his O5, Mercedes-Benz SL55 with 58,000 miles.
Brian, when those came out, I saw them everywhere.
To the point where I thought there was a sign-up sheet and I was sick that day.
Like everyone had them.
SL55.
Yeah, another one.
He sent a photo. It's red. It's beautiful.
I'm glad his red.
It was one of the very best errors of the SL.
So Kudos on a really cool car.
For sure. I mean, Brian got one. He was sick that day.
I agree. There was an error where it was everyone drove one.
Everyone raised it.
But yeah, he got a great color.
He's had it for 15 years.
He worries he'll have sellers or more, especially now that he's retired.
He's using it a lot more.
And more than once, he's been told that that engine is bulletproof.
He doesn't go into if the rest of the car has been reliable.
He doesn't say what kind of maintenance this car is required.
He's been told the engine is bulletproof.
What that sounds to be like.
And I don't know if you can confirm this, Brian.
It sounds to me like you headed in the shop again.
And you can't believe they fixed X again.
And mechanics said, yeah, but don't worry because the engine's bulletproof.
But she's going to rail around it.
Is it disaster? I just love to know.
He doesn't say, but I'm kind of wondering if that's what's happened here anyway.
Brian started his car life in 1981 as a junior in high school with a 79
Valera two-door slant six.
The best is dad would let him buy.
It worked well for him through college.
The list of cars after that included in 1985, Z-28.
87, Z-24.
89, Z-24.
And when it was the last time you said the words Z-24 or saw one.
It's been a while.
It was the Cavalier, right?
Wasn't it the Cavalier Z-24?
Yeah.
Because it was the downgrade from the Z-28.
They were still cool looking.
We don't say that word.
We don't say the Cavalier word.
We just say Z-24, man.
The Z-24, dude.
He had two of them.
1980M.
1980MGB, 1991.
Sob 900.
Don't tell my brother in law, Daniel.
1986 and a half.
Supra, the Gen 3 Supra.
88.
No, 98.
Volvo V70, 04 Audi A6 4.2.
And most recently, an 09 Audi S8.
I love those.
That was a great era for that car.
He's been on Watkins' clan.
Look at this.
I love it.
He took the S8 to attract at Watkins with the local Audi club.
He said it was incredible to be out on the track with it,
but he can only imagine having that experience
with a smaller, more nimble car.
Because the S8's cool, but I don't look at the,
and again, I love the 09 S8.
But I don't look at it and think, track car.
I just don't.
I mean, we've seen them.
Yeah.
On the ring.
Yeah.
But they, of course, test everything,
including ranges on the ring.
True.
And you see this giant hulking truck go by.
You're like, why does that need to stay there?
What do you do in there, buddy?
Yeah.
All right.
Well, he's also out of right.
TV's 92 trooper.
The trooper.
It's a trooper, by the way.
It's Susu.
Susu trooper, yeah.
85 Ford Ranger and 89 Dakota.
Oh, F-150 from 1988.
F-250 diesel.
1998 Explorer.
Navigators.
He's tried all the SUVs.
He said everybody.
All right.
Yes, all the brands.
The current garage.
Includes a 1998 BMW 540i.
That's a cool car.
In New York, that's his primary car.
Alongside the F-250, it's a six speed with 150,000 miles.
He bought it very, not very used.
In the year 2000, it's still his favorite car.
But his wife loves it too.
He has had the lower half of the engine rebuilt by Turner Motorsport
and replaced two catalytic converters.
When you have the lower half of your engine rebuilt,
that means you have to take the upper half off to get to the lower half.
Well, I also thought it's funny because he says other than that,
no major repairs.
I'm like, what's your head?
The engine rebuilt.
But the whole, anyway.
Anyway, yeah, separate going on.
The aforementioned MbSL-55.
Also 2016 Grand Cherokee.
Their daughter uses it most of the time in New York.
And the 2017 expedition in their fleet is his wife's car.
They use it to travel back and forth to Florida.
And then that F-250 from 2019 was a retirement gift to himself.
He tows the toys with the F-250.
I see that.
He did send a picture to BMW as well.
In spite of being silver, it looks gorgeous.
It is gorgeous.
Those are really cool.
I'm glad to hear.
I mean, it's still going with a engine rebuilt.
I mean, I hope it's awesome now because I just, I love other than that,
no major repair, other than redoing the engine.
It's been nothing but good.
How to make something reliable.
Just rebuild the engine.
Just rebuild the engine.
Yeah, heart transplanting off we go.
Well, a few years ago, Brian had an awesome day driving exotics
at Gotham Dreamcars in New Jersey that included an Audi R8 Bentley GTC,
Jag F-Type V8, the Aston DBS, Ferrari F430, and a Lambo.
All cabriose.
That's surprising, but all right, cool.
Huh.
Well, he came away loving the experience with the Jaguar and the Audi.
The Bentley was disappointing.
Yes, that's how we think of Bentley.
Well, but it's, but in a tractor, it's not what you want that for, yeah.
So he hopes to own, but probably never will, an R8.
Even the V8 is over his budget.
Maybe an E39 M5.
You're wanting to upgrade that current 540.
I think you're good.
In fact, I actually look at the photo again.
That might be a white one.
Either way, it's beautiful what you have already.
Might be white.
Yeah, you're right.
All right.
And this Gen 4 Super Turbo is on his mind.
But Brian, we've driven that car.
And I had that on my bedroom wall in poster form.
And I thought that was the Holy Grail.
And then we drove it and I thought,
these are fighting words everyone, but it's too big and heavy.
Well, but here's the thing.
I didn't do what I thought it did.
It's much more GT car in stock forms.
Yes.
We drove one as close as us.
Yes.
It's much more GT car than I think the hype lives up to.
And of course, the hype is now created from, I hate to say,
it's fast and furious and drag racing.
And those engines are super powerful.
You can take a ton of boost.
I've heard all the stories.
But I think that is one of those cars that the pricing is now too much.
Those cars are worth more than the driving experience you'd get.
Yeah, I agree.
Well, he still likes his SL55.
And his weight-to-horsepower ratio, Todd,
based on your 12 magic number.
Me doing math.
Crazy, crazy.
Yeah.
His number is 8.55.
Well, below the famous target of 12.
Love it.
Okay.
All right.
He's maintained the car.
He's had no major issues.
He likes the exhaust sound.
Reminds me of 70s muscle cars.
And he's actually floored it only a handful of times.
Mm-hmm.
He says,
He talks about this.
Pretty scary exhilarating all at the same time.
This is the AMG like,
Yeah.
Yes, floor it.
That's what it's for.
He doesn't use that kind of power often.
But he still likes the idea that it's at his calling whenever he wants it.
But I think you should call upon it more.
You have it.
Let's use it.
That's my theme, anyway.
Well, four seats aren't required.
It would be nice to have four adults once in a while.
How do you get four adults in your SL55?
I'm telling you, that takes some dedication.
I mean, groceries have a hard time fitting back there.
Bravo.
I like that he's done it.
That's very cool.
Ryan's looking at the BMW M6 or the 650 or Mercedes-Benz E53 or E550 as good potential replacements.
He drove that earlier model M6 before buying the SL55 and did not like the SMG.
But he says maybe the newer models are better.
Well, once they went to the dual clutch,
it's worlds better than the SMG.
The SMG was not good.
The SMG was a computer that's learning to drive bolted to the top of a manual transmission.
Sell them anyway.
Yeah, it'll be fine.
The dual clutch knows what it's doing in his excellence.
Yeah.
Microsoft version 1.2 is going to be better.
It's going to be better.
Don't you worry.
Don't you worry.
Don't you worry.
Don't you worry.
Can we get better after the dot?
Anyway, yeah.
So he wants our feedback on these two contenders.
I have different contenders, Brian, because he's open to almost anything including other two seaters
or even keeping the SL55 if we decide.
And one issue, his wife is on board with all this but has ruled out any Porsche or Corvette.
That's interesting.
Isn't it?
Of course, it's off the table.
I love it.
Okay.
No Corvettes.
His budget is 35 to 40 grand after selling the Mercedes.
What do we have for Brian?
I went to some places that you may not like.
But you know, I keep seeing old car maintenance in this.
Old luxury car maintenance.
Old luxury car maintenance.
It's just a real building on your 540i.
Yeah, for sure.
I mean, I'm glad these cars have been great for you.
The pictures you send are beautiful.
I do.
The more I look at this picture because the white balance is often being a geek, I think it is actually a white BMW.
It is gorgeous.
Both of them are great looking and I applaud you for keeping your cars nice and for actually driving them.
I want to applaud all of that.
I'm chasing four seat convertibles for you mostly.
Now, I do want to say that the Jaguar F-Type, not a four seat convertible, but I think it is an overlooked car.
It's underappreciated.
It is undervalued.
You said you liked it when you drove it at that exotic car experience.
I think you should take a very serious look at owning a Jaguar F-Type.
Now, it's only a two-seater and that is the downside.
I have three others that I don't think are really much scarier than where you are right now.
I mean, they might be comparatively scary, but it would be a new experience.
But you're also talking about you take the expedition down to Florida.
You take a big road trip card down to Florida and this is the car that just lives in Florida and gets driven around Florida for fun.
This car doesn't need a road trip. It doesn't need to go to the track.
It doesn't need to go long distances.
And frankly, as much as I want whatever you buy to run for you,
it doesn't even have to run.
You want it to run, but it's not like I have no car now.
You're only in Florida because you came down in the expedition.
You have other transport.
So, I'm of this demeanor of you're looking at four-seat, classy convertibles.
Let's lean in. My most responsible recommendation is the two-series BMW convertible.
You could get four people in that.
That's a solid choice. You could get people in that.
You have your choice at your budget of roughly $45,000.
You've got your choice of them.
If you can find one that has come down enough in price,
the actual four-seat convertible space-wise is the four-series from BMW.
That is a great one.
And I'm glad it's on your list because that is a really great one that works.
The problem with the current four-series convertible is it does have the beaver teeth.
But it has shocking space and watch our test drive of it was incredibly quiet with the top up,
but had genuine four adult space.
That's my most reasonable recommendation because I have two others.
I will admit, I gave myself a $50,000 cap just to see what was out there and discovered
that there are a lot of what I'm about to list in your budget.
A little bit newer than your Mercedes.
You could get either an Aston Martin DB9 or a vantage convertible.
The DB9 is technically four seats.
Now they are tiny four seats, but you could rock and Aston Martin DB9.
Here's what's crazy.
The DB9 has depreciated below the vantage in some cases and convertible is one of the main places.
Aston Martin DB9, my friend, in convertible is in your budget.
And also because of my friend Paul sitting here with me, I have to say the best noise out there
is a convertible Mazurati Gran Turismo.
That is a four-seat convertible with a fantastic noise.
That car just says Florida to me.
I'm just saying, that car in Florida just feels right, doesn't it?
It just feels right.
Texas makes Texas editions of vehicles.
Yes, couldn't Mazurati make a Miami edition?
But the Mazurati Gran Turismo was convertible, was also right at home in the valley in California.
So a ton of them and it just made sense there.
Convertible top down, that Ferrari-sourced engine singing, the great exhaust works.
But you know what, I think it works in Florida too.
So just imagine you sell your Mercedes and you wind up in either an Aston Martin or a Mazurati.
I am certain there would be maintenance coming.
And actually, I'm more concerned about the Mazurati than the Aston Martin because I think the typical Mazurati owner goes,
well that's not my problem, I'll just sell the car.
But, including my football.
Passing it right along the next donor.
But I think either of those would be an event that you don't currently have for the car that I hate to say it this way.
You want to enjoy, but you don't need.
Really good.
I don't know why the Mazurati isn't on my list because that is a great experience.
When I brought it up, I figured you'd be all over it and be disappointed.
I said it first, but I'm glad to hear that I brought it up.
Well, see, I went in a different direction, Brian, because the first on my list is that 2021 or 2022 BMW M430i,
between $38,000 and $40,000 with 255 horsepower, 295 pound feet of torque from a turbo four,
not only do you get great torque, but you get better gas mileage.
And the front end drives better.
Honestly, that dollars cylinder is underappreciated.
That is, those ponies are serious.
I'll be your eyes when you're walking up the cars.
Look at the ground.
Walk from the back three quarters.
You'll be perfectly happy.
And then get in and then it's such a great car.
We did a review a few years ago.
You can find it on our test drive channel.
You're already a BMW enthusiast.
But if you really want the V8 that noise, the power, the thunder,
you could go get a BMW E93 M3 hardtop with the V8.
Ooh, that's a good one.
You've got choices starting at 19,000, up to 26,000,
which is just about half your budget.
And then that is the Florida car.
It stays in Florida because you're traveling back and forth with the excretion.
Agreed, yeah.
And then in New York, go get yourself a GR86 or a Miata.
That small lightweight thing that you were wondering about.
Oh, yeah.
Take it to a hooked on driving Watkins Glen event or any other.
There you go. There you go.
In the Northeast.
You could take both.
You could take to the mid-Atlantic region.
You're BMW.
You could take that new ND3 Miata that you're going to get because I'm spending more your money.
But still any Miata.
Okay.
We've split your budget added a touch more.
I see what you're doing.
You're getting two cars.
You still have the cool V8 still.
They're both convertibles.
You could use that Miata like many people do as a grand touring.
Sure.
You could be a Miata set up in 86.
And he could now convertible both places.
Plus we're talking.
I see where you're going.
Two cars.
I split your bill.
Wow.
Added a bit more.
Still.
Of course you did.
But you did really well.
I'm impressed.
That's my recipe, Brian.
Let us know what you get.
Thanks for the photos.
Send us your topic Tuesdays, car debates, car conclusions, everyday driver TV at gmail.com.
This episode is brought to you by Pacifico.
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Lots of good questions.
Thank you guys for always responding when we ask out for questions.
And we do ask on Facebook and Instagram.
We thank you guys for diving in on all of those.
Many questions have come up because we posted the Nissan Center.
We're about to do a test drive-up.
And many of you have asked about it.
One of them is Nissan seems intent on merging land and asks rather than being absorbed.
What company would openly admit that they are equals with Nissan?
Yikes, that's scary waters.
The only one he can think of is Stellantis, which I actually think is a good guess.
But Stellantis is a huge conglomerate in and of itself.
Could give the potential return of Chrysler as a real brand by implementing better engineered Nissan products.
Are the Nissan products better engineered than Chrysler?
I guess they only are because Chrysler only sells one thing.
And that's a minivan.
You know what?
Which works.
It's a rental.
I could see a Nissan Chrysler merger.
But you have to break it off of Stellantis to do that.
Because Stellantis is a huge conglomerate already.
And I don't think Nissan wants to be absorbed by a larger conglomerate again.
But that Stellantis conglomerate is also French.
But Nissan also has another French connection.
Relationship.
Like what I did there?
Yes.
Very nice.
Yeah.
But they'd have to say goodbye to one and...
Well, goodbye to all of the French connections.
I thought of a terrible answer to this.
And that is Toyota sells Daihatsu.
And you get Daihatsun.
Daihatsun.
Or Nis Hatsu.
I'm not sure which.
I like Nis Hatsu better.
But Nis Hatsu.
So anyway, that's what I was like.
Because you know, Daihatsu sells cheap cars.
They've had some questionable approval processes.
Some scandals underneath the Toyota brand in the last couple of years.
But I just thought Daihatsu doesn't really have a presence anywhere else.
But they sell a lot of vehicles, a lot of work vehicles.
And that kind of thing.
I just thought...
Yeah.
Nis Hatsu.
Nis Hatsu.
That's when you burn your fingers on the stove.
Nis Hatsu.
It's something.
It's something like that.
I don't know.
Yeah.
Why did I do that?
That really burned.
I know that.
Yes.
On Instagram, Matt Garrett 82 is wondering like someone with a disease does why certain car designs
and certain specific colors are more attractive.
Matt doesn't usually like white cars, but he likes the Mustang S550 in white.
Admitting that is the first step towards recovery, my friend.
He tends to generally find red cars tacky, but he owns a sole red MX5 because those curves look awesome in that color.
So that made Matt think each manufacturer is halo cars.
What's our top color combination body and wheels pick?
Extra points if we can come up with something special like stripes or a roof in a different color.
And he's thanking me if I can explain to mere mortals.
No, it's not like that.
I just have studied it.
Which types of design benefit from brighter versus darker colors?
Ooh.
This is really good.
Matt, I appreciate the question.
Color combo.
It's always got to be secondary, tertiary.
You want to study the color wheel.
That's where I always come back to is main color.
And then what is the complementary color across the color wheel from it?
So blues, for example, you look across the color wheel.
Of course, it's warmer colors, but directly across would be yellow, orange, somewhere in there.
You look across the color spectrum back the other way.
You can look at an orange.
It goes back to maybe a very dark blue, something like that.
And you can see all those color combinations in a very bright, saturated mascot way reflected in football teams.
Oh, that's good.
You know those football teams, that kind of stuff.
You think, why is purple and yellow together?
Oh, it's more royalty.
It's more, you know, that kind of thinking.
So color wheel is always important.
When you get into house paint, you want to do very sedude, non-saturated colors.
You add white or black to get to a different tone there.
You want to make things subdued, knock it back.
But for this kind of thing, you can put kind of crazy wheels on just about any color.
But the ones that always look good are what?
Silver, a polished bright work.
You want a color with bright.
And that's a nice thing.
So when you do a silver or a charcoal wheel, that's when calipers can stand through.
Now, Porsche does calipers associated with the kind of brake system that is on the car.
Yellow indicates carbon ceramics, but they also, you can choose black for that.
But I would say the green and gold, the green plus gold color combination.
A neat, really beautiful, darker green with maybe more bright wheels.
And that's the other thing.
If you go a darker color, the wheels have to not only be that complementary color,
they have to be a brighter tone.
This is why I don't like black wheels on a dark car.
I want, you know, if it's a dark blue, I want lighter colored, that champagne color,
that yellow gold across the color wheel from it.
And conversely, on a bright car, that's why let's say on an orange car, a bronze would look really nice.
It's a darker color, but it doesn't go all the way to black.
So it's not just a black hole and is a tire wheel.
I can't, I can't really see anything in it.
You were there not black wheel fans.
That's very true.
In that hole, that is the wheel well.
Yeah, green and gold, the blues and golds, you know, you can see it.
Those bright, hotter colors going the other direction.
Now, on your red, Amira, I do like that bright silver, because the red is a very dark,
blueish, cool red.
I agree.
It's not a hotter orange-ish red, where I could see maybe a darker wheel that, you know,
not black, but bronze and somewhere in that arena.
Of course, you can go directly across the color wheel and choose the opposite color.
This is why Christmas colors work so well, red and green, and whatever variant of that.
But you can easily make a mistake because of the shade of the green and the red that you choose.
But then when it comes to your question regarding brighter and darker colors on the car,
the brighter colors you see on Lamborghini's.
When you see those F430 Ferraris, and they're in this gray, doesn't strike you as an interesting hot car.
You see dark colors on a Huracan or a Ventador, you think,
okay, very subdued, and I know that it's an expensive fast car.
But if you see a brighter hot color on it, it says, ah, energy.
It brings performance and energy, and it speaks more towards the hyper nature of that car.
I mean, the frenetic high power, lots of energy, you're paying attention more so than cruising and that kind of stuff.
So on the Bentley's and the Rolls-Rises, if you see a bright light color,
to me, it's not working as well because it says a lot of bright hot energy on a car that's made to be just cruising.
So I see dark blues, dark greens, dark reds on those Bentley's.
Ah, that works better for me.
There's still color introduced, and it also depends on the size of the car.
It also depends on the styling of the car, Matt, because a very busy car does not work for those bright hot colors.
There are some exceptions.
Supra works well in yellow.
It just looks great.
Looks great.
That's a great yellow, too, yeah.
It's also visually a lot going on.
There's a lot of visual interest on the car, and some places your eye doesn't really know where to land,
except because of the design, it's a classic proportion, long big hood, with a very simple, fillet and radius,
dropping off into the wheel wells, and then all the details aside, you walk around the car, the ductile, that kind of stuff.
And then, yeah, I mean, a lot of 9.11s, I see darker colors, and I think, okay, it's very subdued,
and you're saying very classy, elegant, reserved, but that's not what that car can do.
True.
If you have a bright hot color, cool something on it, or if it's the darker color, make it pop with an interesting, hotter, brighter color set of wheels.
Well done.
I love it.
Daniel's actually asking questions related to that.
He asks, who has the best manufacturer OEM yellow color?
And I think it is probably Toyota's super color right now is up there, but that color is actually really close to the
Hethyl yellow that Lotus uses.
And I think those are the two best OEM yellows.
The Hethyl yellow I have it on my Elise, and it has a little bit of a blue flake in it, you hit it in the sunshine.
They have two yellows available on the Elise, and the one that I have has that blue flake and looks so much better, I've seen the other yellow next to it, and it looks bland.
So something about that blue flake sets it off, and the super has a little bit of that, which helps.
It's really interesting how that helps.
So I think those are my two favorite on that.
Also Daniel is asking us a track daily crush because he said he has a car conclusion coming.
He's not going to tell us yet, but he just sounds like he inherited a car.
Got a recently new to him car.
It's completely left field.
He's waiting until he can clean it up before he sends a car conclusion with pictures.
But it got him thinking track daily crush.
So he's given us three cars, one of which is the one he's inherited or got or whatever.
He's going to wonder if we can guess it or we may end up crushing it and he'll be offended.
Here we go.
Track daily crush.
Chevy Cobalt SS Volkswagen Jetta GLI Dodge caliber SRT4.
And I've thought about this a little bit.
The Chevy Cobalt SS in its era was one of the better handling hot hatches out there.
So I think that's my track car.
Even though I know the cabin would be the nicest, I just can't daily the Jetta GLI.
Anytime I've driven one, I've found myself disappointed.
The rev hang was horrendous because of course I wanted to manual.
The rev hang is horrendous.
And that Dodge caliber SRT4 does come in a manual.
So I think the SRT4 is going to be my daily.
I'm going to crush the GLI.
Let's hope that's not the car you're going to end up with and track the Chevy Cobalt SS.
On Facebook, Kirk Meier asks if removing the CVT or a new design language would sell more Nissan's to people rather than rental companies.
Yikes.
Another body blow.
Also, Nissan could just buy a good automatic like a ZF or buy the CVT from Subaru if they want to stay with them.
No, Kirk, you're right.
Remove the CVT.
New design language forthcoming.
That design language has been beat on and reworked for a couple of decades almost.
It's too much.
We've done it over and over.
Nissan needs a fresh take.
The problem is they've actually introduced some new designs, some new concepts.
And collectively the world went, yeah, Nissan, no, hang on.
Let's get something tasteful in there.
But I think Nissan needs to pivot.
It's still a business.
It still needs to make money.
But how come Honda is producing awesome, enthusiast cars but still ostensibly making money?
How is Hyundai producing hot hatches and hot and focused versions of cars but still ostensibly making money?
And they don't have CVTs and they're not using, they're using some great manuals and they're putting some cool turbo engines in them.
And they're taking, that's why the driving the center kind of occurred to me like Nissan.
If you brought back the SER suddenly there would be this glimmer of hope.
Enthusiasts would turn their heads and think, well, Nissan, are you just kidding?
Are you going to start applying that thinking?
So yes, it needs to be a business.
Yes, make those business decisions but you need to also show the world and especially the enthusiast community.
And by that I mean people who love driving, who just love cars.
It's got to be at least half of, well, maybe not.
I don't know.
It's got to be a lot of people that would think Nissan, are you turning over a new leaf?
Oh no, stop, stop, stop.
Yeah.
Enthusiast car, take the bone.
Do what BMW has always done.
Take the bones of a base car and make it amazing.
Nissan's always done that.
Take the whatever it is.
And not a thousand horsepower turbo, the size of your head but you know what I mean?
Make it hot, interesting, where it's introduced back to competition.
You're starting to campaign the car, you're starting to get it out there.
Nissan, you have this legacy, you can lean on and Enthusiast would love you for it.
And especially if you've got rid of the CVT, they'd forgive you for it.
Well, I actually wonder if somebody out there can probably track the trajectory.
But I would like to see it tracked between Nissan's overwhelming embrace of the CVT
and the reduction in sales because I bet you they're connected.
Nissan started, I just looked it up.
Nissan sold its first car with a CVT in the mid 90s.
But in the early 2000s is when they started making it universal, okay?
2003 is when they started putting it in like the Versa and other places.
So it's been around with them for a while but when I think about all the things that,
oh man, 2003 CVTs were the thing that started working its way through the whole lineup.
And now, yeah, that's right.
The word that I, totally, that we got to get a vaccine for that.
I don't know what's going on.
So 20 plus years later, we have a company that is dying and looking now for a partner that is equivalent.
And that's tough. We've been talking about this a lot.
So 03 is when they released the Z-Car.
That was the 350Z.
Now that one actually had a real automatic and a real manual transmission.
And then of course right after that they released the GTR.
But after those two, it's a CVT fest and you watch the reduction.
Guys, thank you for all your questions.
We really appreciate it.
More here that we need to get to.
But in the meantime, we'll cut it off there.
Really appreciate you writing to us.
Think of us every day driver TV at gmail.com.
Look at every day driver for the adventure, the pilgrimage adventure.
And don't forget to hook on driving for a track day and adventure near you.
We're looking forward to next time, as always.
Cheers everyone.
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