Andy Wallace on downforce injuries, winning Le Mans & his motorsport career | part one

If somebody was coming the other way in the other way, I'd say, okay, I'll tell you what, stop, stop.

When you pass me, don't touch me.

So, welcome to a special edition of the EVO podcast where we're joined by Andy Wallace, racing legend,

test driver extraordinaire and old friend of the magazine, and John Barker is here as my wingman.

Andy, thanks for coming.

Pleasure.

We've been gassing. We should have started this about 10 minutes ago because all the good stuff came out of me,

including wind tunnel testing Andy's head, which we might come back to later, I don't know.

Yeah, we should.

I'm sure most of you will know Andy for his successes in endurance racing.

Triple crown winner.

So Le Mans 88 with Jaguar Daytona 1997 and 1999.

Once with Jaguar, then Rylee and Scott.

Rylee and Scott twice.

And then Sebring.

I didn't realise you were this old, but you actually won Sebring twice with Fangio.

Yes.

Yeah, second.

Fangio the second, yeah.

No.

Actually, bloody good driver he is too.

Well done.

Yeah, really, really good.

It's funny when you're obviously doing some research and looking back at all your extensive results,

some of the names that jump, obviously that one jumped out because I wasn't expecting to see that.

But we only did it with two drivers.

Yeah, that must have been a hell of a...

That's a lot.

Particularly as you probably know, the one in 92 was with Broke and Ribs.

You probably know that one already.

That's kind of been well regurgitated that story.

But still, you know, with two of you on the bumpiest...

Yeah, Sebring is a rough and tumble track.

And in that car too.

It's an Eagle Toyota Mark III, according to my research.

Yeah, so you're looking around 900 kilos, full ground effects,

2.1-litre four-cylinder with about a year of turbo lag.

Almost a year.

Stick shift, presumably.

Yeah, stage.

Yeah.

And then because it has so much downforce with the ground effects and it has a huge great wing,

I think double deck wings as well,

obviously to stop it burying itself into the tarmac on the back straight,

you've got monster springs like over 3,000 pound per inch springs.

And so what I noticed with the Broke and Ribs especially,

when you were driving flat out, yeah, there was a certain pain level,

but when you were following the safety car...

Or it's just jiggling around on the...

Just bouncing on the tyres.

It's absolutely impossible to...

So remind us how you did the ribs.

Oh, you don't want that, do you?

No, I can.

Do as the quick one.

The short one.

OK, OK, right.

So driving for Toyota, 1992,

and they decided right as quite close to Japan

and nice weather that time of year in February,

we went to Eastern Creek in Australia near Sydney.

And we did.

We weren't allowed to run overnight,

so we did a nine day endurance test,

which was Saturday Sunday, the whole weekend Saturday Sunday.

And it was from 9am till 6pm.

And that's a long time, nine days.

Even though you're not running at night.

So there were two cars.

One was doing just performance,

and I got the short straw with...

With...

It was Hitoshi Ogawa and Kenny Atchison, I believe.

Yeah, the two, the three of us in that car.

And we were just running for nine days, this car,

over and over and over and over and over to make sure, obviously.

And what would they do?

Was it just service?

Yes.

And then if you broke anything,

they'd obviously changed that.

That's it, tyres and fuel, mostly.

Yeah, is what it was.

And you can see this clip on YouTube, right?

You've got the cars coming towards you in this one.

And some of the ones I've seen, they cut it off too early.

But in the middle of this first corner, which is flat out,

it's about 190 miles an hour flat out.

And it was just a big horseshoe corner, wasn't it?

Yeah, the first one was, yeah.

And then in the middle, you've got this fairly large couple of dips bumps.

And the cars, you can hear it coming in through there,

and they go,

as it goes over the bumps.

And sort of being a high downforce car, I guess,

when it goes up, it momentarily gets a bit of lateral movement

and then reattaches when you can hear it in the engine note,

because you have wide open.

And that after, and it was on the ninth day,

was enough to bust two ribs.

But then I was replaced by Toshio Gower after this.

He jumped in and an hour into his first stint on that last day,

he broke two as well.

So it was nice.

But this was 29th of February, 1992.

And of course, Sebring is around the 20th of March.

So it was literally,

and it was a Sunday we did this.

So it was, yeah, a couple of weeks, 13 days, actually,

before the race.

But of course, Sebring, or 13 days before you had to be there,

you test all week at Sebring from the Monday all the way through.

So what did you just strap yourself up as much as you could

and put up with it?

No, I went to see the doctor and he said,

yeah, yeah, no, you'd be fine.

You give that about sort of six, seven weeks.

It'd be all right.

And I go, no, no, you don't understand.

I've got six or seven days.

Yeah.

And I said, well, what can you do?

Well, there's nothing you can do.

Yeah, you can, you can wrap yourself up.

You can, you can, and then there was a drawer underneath the desk,

or you could take these.

So I thought, oh, well, it sounds like I should be taking those.

So I, I took a few of those with me.

They were not performance enhancing drugs, were they?

No, no, they were fake killers.

But we can have a side effect.

Well, I guess they, yeah, I guess they could.

And they were performance enhancing because it stopped it hurting.

God, but you're so broken afterwards.

Well, actually the worst one of that was not that was.

So you're in Sydney.

Right.

And so you still got to get back to London first and then that

and then go to Sebring.

So, so it's basically a couple of 12 hour flies, isn't it?

Yeah.

Where they stop in the middle.

So, and I remember, it's like, every time I got up in the plane,

just to go to use the facilities.

If somebody was coming the other way in the other, I'd say, okay,

I'll say, I'll tell you what, stop, stop.

When you pass me, don't touch me.

Really?

And you can, I'm standing like a right lunatic.

Just like, just as awful.

I mean, everybody's broken ribs, right?

They all know what it's like, but it's, it's horrible.

So yeah, you go, sorry, bro, and you pass without touching,

but then the sneezing thing, that was the worst of all, wasn't it?

And you have to learn to spray it all over the wall, don't you?

That's the only way not to, to make it crack again.

You know, laughing.

Oh yeah, laughing.

Yeah, it wasn't so funny in the end, was it?

But anyway, that, that all got sorted.

And then it was brilliant.

And we ended up winning the race.

But gee, that was a difficult car to drive in that state,

I would say.

Some of the others.

God.

So if we rewind to your single-seater career,

so you won British Formula Three championship in 86,

your first, did you, first season in 85?

Five, yeah, I came second.

But I was looking again, looking through the results

and your, your championship winning year,

so there were 18 races, 19 races,

but they canceled the first one,

presumably because it was terrible weather in March,

Silverstone or something.

Did they?

Is that 85?

86.

Oh, 86.

Because 85, I'm not expecting you to remember all this

in my nutrients there.

No, I remember the 85 race,

because my, my first ever Formula Ford 1600 race,

contemporary race,

because I did pre-74 before that,

was the March race at Silverstone,

getting dark last race of the day and pouring rain.

And I won that first race,

first Formula Four race I did.

And the Formula Three in 85 was the same.

I won that very first race

in my arch at Silverstone and pouring rain.

I mean, Wikipedia is never wrong, is it?

No.

Did you say I was wrong then?

No, no, no, no.

It just said that that race in 86 was canceled,

but then the 18, 18 starts.

Yeah.

13 poles.

Wow, yeah.

And eight wins.

What does it,

because we're used to dominant drivers in Formula One now,

what does it feel like to be that on top of your game?

What was the difference between the year you won

and the year you didn't,

or did you not feel any difference in the car or you?

So, it was a rain hour chassis both times.

So, the first year,

that was,

it was quite early in carbon fibre for Formula Three car,

and I don't think everybody knew quite as much about the cars

as we do now,

and we still had catchpence poles.

Yeah.

So, I won a few races in 85 already

and was quite high up in the championship.

And we got to Brands Hatch,

and I had a rear pushrod brake,

right rear, going into Paddock Hill Bend.

So, it dropped down at the back and sent me into the wall,

and a pole smashed the monocoque,

made a bit of a hole in the monocoque.

So, of course, we just...

I didn't patch it.

Polly filler.

Dang, B-A.

Polly filler.

Yeah, put it all back together.

And I just couldn't find my back side with either hand.

I just couldn't drive it.

So, we got...

I think the next race was Silverstone Grand Prix circuit,

and I was always on the front or second row in qualifying.

I think I was 13th to 14th in qualifying.

And we lost, I think, three races before we go,

okay, guys, this isn't working.

And I think Renault very kindly gave us a new chassis.

Bill, then you were back on it.

Yeah, right where we were.

So, it came down to the very last race.

Ritso Guzman, I think, was one point or two points ahead of me

at the last race, Silverstone Grand Prix.

So, it was the old fast stone club corners then.

So, what you did at Silverstone, you ran a spool.

So, no diff.

Yeah.

And all you had to do was get off the line and take the lead.

And it was very hard at Silverstone for anybody to pass.

So, he got pulled.

Because the speeds were so sustained.

Yeah, not much braking yet.

Yeah, exactly.

So, and I guess with the spool, you probably had a bigger chance

of getting the first corner first.

But it was also, it was the difference between taking club corner flat out

and not.

So, it was, with the spool, it was flat.

And you also had Abbey, the really fast Abbey.

So, I'm not sure how many people ran spools or not,

but we always did when we went there.

So, all I had to do was get around cops ahead of him.

And it would have been okay.

So, we came around, he was on pole,

and it was not a staggered like Formula 1.

The two were level.

Side by side.

So, I just lured my car up kind of towards him and awaited.

And then, I think it was even a flag in those days went down

and we shot off and I got a better style than him.

And I went right across to him.

We were up against a pit wall and I missed second gear.

Oh, no.

Absolute plonker.

And then he also got mugged.

No, I managed to get it after I missed it,

but it was enough that he got ahead.

So, he won and I was second.

So, I ended up second in the championship.

And actually, perhaps it did me good because I had it.

And then the second year I had a lot more experience

of Formula 3.

And it's quite a jump from Formula 4

or even Formula 4 2000 to F3.

Was it a much more like set up sensitive cars

and racing obviously more?

Yeah, just I mean everything about it was bigger,

better, faster, more technical as a challenge.

Because you won Macau.

In your championship winning year, you also won Macau,

didn't you?

Which was the halo event.

It still is to a degree, isn't it?

But then I guess it should have been your golden ticket to...

Yeah, it should have.

And I went around all the F1 teams,

knocked on the door and said who I was

and said, yeah, yeah, we know who you are.

We've been following things like right and then.

So, then I was offered a drive at two teams.

But I had come back with $600,000.

Everything else, US dollars in those days.

Which teams?

That was Arrows and Tyrell.

And if you remember, Julian Bailey took the Tyrell drive

and the car didn't turn out to be very good back then.

And he'd sold everything he had and mortgaged everything

and borrowed money from people to pay for that drive.

And you only get one shot at it in F1, don't you?

So, and if you land and it's the wrong car,

not only do you not win, that was your time.

Your time with that brush then, aren't you?

Yeah, well, yeah, but you can't go twice then

because you'd never, I couldn't find the $600,000 anyway.

But as luck would have it,

that Macau race in 86 was what actually gave me my big break

and that was because in those days,

guest drivers would come down from F2, F3,

endurance and the rest of it.

And Jan Lamers was in that race

and you have two heats and put the two together.

And he was leading the first heat

and I was chasing him all around

but it's very, very difficult to pass.

It's set for into the Lisbon corner

at the end of the long bumpy, wide strafe.

I've followed him all the way around and then on the last.

And he's got,

Jan's got probably the best car control of anybody

I've ever met before since.

Wow, really?

He's brilliant.

I can give you some stories of him.

He did some, he's just amazing in a car

because he grew up as a skid school instructor

from age four or something.

So, I'm chasing him on this last lap

but we knew it was the last lap.

He knows that's the only place I can pass him.

I'm all over him like a rash

and he just arrived and he broke so late

and he got a little bit of wobble on the back

and the left rear wheel just touched the white line

on the outside and he kind of lost it.

Most people would have just spun and gone in the war

but he's got it.

I've got it, I've got it.

The only thing is with I've got it,

the apex was a barrier on the inside

and he's got it but he's going to head on into the barrier.

So, I just saw my chance,

went down the inside and managed to

we clip wheels a couple of times and I passed him,

knocked him straight.

Now, I'm in the lead.

And I found this on YouTube

but it's an annoying group of about 60 videos

and it seemed impossible to find it,

but it exists somewhere.

So, yeah, so bam a man, off we go.

That was great.

I won, he was second.

Then the second race,

I guess he would start the second race

where you finished the first one perhaps, yeah.

I cleared off basically

and disappeared off on one.

We were on the podium at the end

and Jan was there and I knew of Jan

but I didn't really know him

but on the podium he was going,

oh, thanks for that.

That was brilliant.

I was getting in that wall and he straightened me out.

But it just, you know, he was racing for Jaguar

in the XJL9, the Silk Cup.

And that was your ticket.

And that got you an intro to test with the theme.

I don't know how he swung it

but eventually I ended up with an invite

to go to Poricard and went down there.

And there were a few drivers they were testing.

And that car must have felt really weird.

Going to tell you.

Going to tell you to see your beta.

How?

Because the engine's about that tall

and right up there behind you.

And yeah, it was the most cold.

Well, that's the thing.

And also having driven a Formula 3

which in those days were around 165 horsepower

and all open cars.

I mean, I did a guest Metro race,

one and a guest Renault 5 race, I think somewhere.

But other than that, it was all open cars.

And then so Yan and Johnny Nelfrice was also,

was there and they took me one side and said,

look, if you want this to go well,

we'll give you a few tips.

You, at first you're not going to,

you're going to be,

you're going to be a bit wary of this thing

because it's going to move on the straight.

Because I was driving the low down forced car

ready for them all on the long straight at Poricard.

It's going to flow, just let it do it

and explaining everything.

Hotter than hell inside.

It was so hot in that car.

It's incredible.

Anyway, it gave me a lot of tips.

Jumped in the car and I pretty much did everything they told me.

And it, it obviously went quite well.

To the point where,

and I'd driven the high down forced car as well,

I was jumping in and out of both cars.

And they, at one point said,

I think it's probably Roger Sillman and the team over here.

Yeah, their lap times are really good,

but we want to see if you can do a whole hour at the same speed,

you know, because it's really hot in there.

And it's a big heavy car, no power steering brakes or anything.

So they, they jammed me in,

put a load of fuel in it, set the tyres,

shut the door, dropped it on the ground.

Had lunch.

Yeah, and off I went.

So I thought, right, I know what I'm going to do.

So I rolled my sleeves up and I went out

and I just pushed and pushed and pushed.

And I absolutely used every last bit of energy

and liquid and everything in me.

Got to the end and it was pretty consistent.

Came in the pits, popped open the door

and then he said, what are you doing?

I was like, well, I just did it.

No, he said, no, no, no.

And put the nozzle bowl, no.

And did a second one and they sent me up.

I was absolutely used up.

I couldn't even drive down the pit lane.

It was that bad.

But I, I obviously, I must have done okay.

So I got an invite to Kidlington where the headquarters was

and sat down in the office with Tom.

This would be what an ATC.

So I've skipped a bit because it's quite boring.

But the first time they called me,

I said, no, you're right.

I don't want to drive that car.

I want to do Formula One.

And as luck would have it,

I got a call a bit later on.

So this was the beginning of 88 or, yeah.

So yeah.

And yeah, sat in his office and the struggle.

All right, I had, sorry, I've got hay fever.

Always have had.

And there's no hay in here, but I still got the figures.

It's the induction.

It's the size of the induction manifold.

That's what it is.

Yeah.

And so yeah, I sat at the table and to get where I was like,

I remember starting being a professional driver, if you like,

it took me eight years before I earned one pound from driving cars.

Wow.

It was forever.

And everybody's telling me, I know you,

you don't want to be doing this.

This is stupid.

You're never going to get anywhere.

And suddenly it started to, you know,

it started to be some money in it, not very much.

And always it was trying to find the sponsorship.

But I was useless at that.

Still am.

So I had a few people helping me who ended up being fantastic friends

and really scraped together and they knew other people.

And it wasn't a lot of money they found,

but it was enough to just keep driving and keep racing.

And then of course you sit down with Tom.

So right.

Okay.

So this is what we want you to do.

This is what will pay you for test days for races.

And I'm like, oh yeah.

Okay then.

Money.

It was great.

No.

I mean, obviously I realized that you, you know,

that you were going to be paid driving for a factory team,

but it's just so nice that you now,

what you got to do is take a huge amount of pressure off

and give you a bit more bandwidth to focus on you.

Yeah.

No.

It does.

But the thing that was really funny.

Well, there's lots of things that were really funny.

But first of all, they didn't really,

it was Le Mans they needed me for.

So to be the third driver in the number two car with,

with the unknown Johnny.

They said, well,

obviously we can't just put you in the car and you go to Le Mans.

Cause that year there were no test day.

They'd resurfaced the straight.

So it was straight in cold turkey.

So they said, okay,

we're going to send you to road Atlanta,

haireth,

and I think it was with road Atlanta with Wattie.

And her rest was,

I think yeah,

John Watson again and John Nielsen.

I think we did that was a 500 car race or something like that.

And then I did quite a bit of testing whenever,

whenever we could.

So I think we were third in road Atlanta.

We were second in her rest.

But during the race,

when I was in the car,

the two fast corners behind the pits before the last one,

a C2 car.

And I never remember the name of the driver.

And I should do.

Cause I know,

but I've forgotten.

Spum going through it.

And there's a wall on the inside.

So you couldn't actually see around the corner.

And it's flat out.

And as I come around the corner,

there is a car spinning in front of me.

And while I'm going to hit him on,

I mean, it's just nothing to do.

Luckily it stopped quite quickly.

And I thought, okay, round the back.

So I could see the whites of his eyes looking at me.

I was about ready to devote him.

And I went round the back of him on the grass and missed him.

But I collected lots and lots of grass in the radiator.

So I had to make a stop to clean it.

And then we were second.

So, and of course I,

I got the feeling from everybody in the team that, you know,

well, if you hadn't been so stupid, we would have won that race.

So we were in the paddock.

Did they think you'd just gone off and collected all the grass?

Were they aware?

I think in the end they, they, they took my version of it.

But I wasn't, I didn't feel like they were saying,

don't worry about it.

They were just like, you go and sit over there.

We'll talk to you when we want to.

So the, the guy, and I really wish I remember what his name was.

We'll have to be able to find it somewhere.

He came up to me in the paddock and he said,

I have no idea you didn't hit me and or kill me.

He said, if you said, look, I really owe you big time.

It was a must for a bit of driving.

And I was thinking, oh, thank you.

If there's anything you can, I can do.

He said, just give me a shout because you're really seriously.

So I said, well, there is one thing you can do.

And it was caravans in those days, not so much big motives.

I said, I missed the walking shores in there.

Could you just like tell him what you just told me?

So, and I just hid round the back of the caravan.

He knocked him the door.

Ah, what do you want, laddie?

I just wanted to tell you that your driver did a,

a must for a bit of driving.

And I don't know how he didn't crash.

And I'm so sorry.

I spun the car.

And actually, I think he had a suspension for it,

which is why he spun.

Yeah.

Excuse me.

And then all the time said, if I was mad with him,

he'd know it by now and then shut the caravan door.

So I came back from behind the camera and I'm like, thank you.

Anyway, I was invited back to the next one.

So it must have been okay.

But then of course you eventually,

we went to Silverstone self-circuit and Jaguar run five cars that,

that day, that year.

And they gave me the job of doing the shakedown and all five cars,

which gave me a bit more experience of changing a few things on the cars.

And then we, of course, we get to Le Mans.

And the first time you go out on the track is no chicanes, no test day.

You set off and there was no speedo in the cars in those days.

So I just looked at the gear chart and I saw that 6,000 RPM was 200 miles an hour.

So the first time I went down the straight,

it was just 200 miles an hour and it felt quite fast, actually.

And then you just, you know, just making sure I knew what was going on

and get a feel for it.

And then a merc and a jag went past me in the middle of the straight

like I was tied to a post.

Then, okay.

Better go flat out next time.

And the kink was easy flat, but it's more of a,

like a spatial awareness stroke timing thing because you arrive at the kink.

The wrong side of 240 miles an hour,

which now with all the experience we've had with road cars and all the rest,

isn't that fast, but it was in those days.

Yeah.

And to go through the kink, it was not so much as turn the wheel.

You just move your elbow and you go around the corner.

So it was quite, quite delicate.

We snuck on to the barrier.

Oh, yeah.

Just after the kink.

It would have been 95, actually.

When you were hammering around in the McLaren.

That was in the McLaren.

Oh, yeah.

It was terrifying.

Well, and of course that was with chicane.

So you're arriving a good bit slower.

Yeah, that's terrifying.

But it's going to feel the energy.

Yeah.

I think Le Mans is such a,

until you've been with all,

well, clearly you've won it.

We've been fortunate enough to do Le Mans classics.

So we've driven a track,

but it's such a particular place, isn't it?

And you can see why the cars evolved in the way they did for the,

for the sort of drive without the,

yeah, without the chicane.

But we drove the,

We drove to go to the end of the E-Type, yeah.

Which I still remember and laugh about your advice.

Yeah.

Brake it.

The brake,

just watch the brakes into the first chicane.

With the brakes on a D-Type are the weirdest thing, aren't they?

They kind of go too much.

Then you back out and you get,

and you get into this weird.

Yeah.

Kind of.

I would say it's,

it's not that the brakes are bad,

because you can stop the wheels really easily.

You just can't stop the car.

Yeah.

And it,

it went on for like,

normally if you outbrake yourself,

it's like, oh shit.

And then you're off, aren't you?

Yeah.

It's like,

don't you want a hug?

I think I've out,

I think I've outbraked myself here.

And then everything's going,

for literally hundreds of meters.

Well, yeah.

To be fair,

you are doing yourself down

because that was a masterful bit of saving.

You,

you had a tank slapper on like,

from the outside,

it would have looked absolutely perfect

because it all kind of gathered itself up

just at the apex of the chicane.

That's,

oh my God,

is this what it's going to be?

Yeah.

Right.

And then fortunately,

the engine had a issue.

Yeah,

it did,

obviously.

Yeah,

But yeah,

it is a bit odd.

And the,

and the kink,

the kink,

once you've done it

and you kind of know what you're doing,

it's fine,

but you,

you quite often catch a car

as you arrive there.

And then to try to do it

by staying in one lane,

that,

you know,

the car just wants to go left.

And if the car in front

is on the left lane,

it's,

yeah,

and you get some interference.

Yeah.

And it's pretty bad,

but it is flat in the wet as well,

but you arrive down there

and your feeling is there is no way

I'm going to do that flat in the wet.

So I was having this conversation

back in the,

in the pits

or in the caravan

and Tony Southgate said,

look,

all you've got to think of

is this car's got so much downforce

at 240 miles an hour.

Just imagine,

and he always used to say,

just imagine having

three Ford Granados

balanced on top of the roof.

It would be fine.

And I'm thinking,

well,

I hope they don't fall off.

And that was how he,

he's in elegy,

he was always great

because he was a wonderful aerodynamicist.

Really amazing.

And sure enough,

it was flat

and wet.

But the,

the aerodynamic thing,

the key to your success

was Jan, wasn't it?

Because he set the car up

slightly differently to...

Yes.

Well, yeah.

What made our car so fast

on the straight.

So on a, on a flat bottom car,

the last thing you need

is the car to go nose up.

Yeah.

It's very easy to take off.

You've seen the results,

like a couple of times.

Been there, done that.

Yeah.

I did a nice one in,

in Mossport,

in an L&P2 car,

but,

and,

yeah, so it's not pleasant,

but in a,

in a ground effect car,

in fact,

if you can get it

just a little bit nose up

or the back,

bit further down than the front,

you,

you basically,

the whole car is a wing.

So you're basically,

you're taking the wing down

and you pick up speed.

You just lose,

lose drag.

So Jan was the one

in the morning warmup,

I think it was.

So normally,

if you do something

in the morning warmup,

it's a big risk

because the conditions aren't the same.

He decided,

he wanted to try

a softer rear spring.

So

he did it.

The car picked up speed.

He said,

it doesn't really

change the balance anyway.

It feels fine.

You know,

at the speed you are in,

well,

it was like a spring

BRS system.

Yeah,

a little bit like that.

So of course,

we,

we were all one team,

so we shared the information,

but most people,

or in fact,

all the other cars

decided not to do it

because it's too big a risk

to go straight into the race.

Having done that,

so,

so that picked up,

picked up speed.

The other thing

I remember about

the race,

which was something that you,

you have to think about all the time was,

we were still using

this cast iron brake discs

in those days.

So you had,

you had to change your brakes,

pads,

discs and things like that

during the race,

but,

but also at the end

of the long straight,

after the kink,

of course,

before you get to Morseine Corner,

there's a real danger

of thermal shock

exploding the disc.

Kind of warm.

Yeah.

So,

yeah,

so as you,

as you're heading towards

going over the hump

before Morseine Corner,

you need to,

to get a bit of heat into the brake.

And then, yeah,

and then just swap feet

to get to the corner.

So,

don't forget that one.

But the other thing too,

another, another thing

that I just thought of,

going over the,

the hump,

I would get oil light

coming on.

So,

and I noticed this in practice

and I got with engine people

and I said,

yeah, this is happening.

No, no, no,

if that happened,

the engine would have blown up by now.

And,

but it was.

It was in Russia.

Yeah.

They all like going on

over the Braves.

I guess they would,

all that kind of stuff,

they would see now,

wouldn't they?

All the engineers would see it,

but you were their eyes

and ears.

That was it.

It was dry sump though, wasn't it?

Yeah, it was dry sump.

I don't know why

the light was coming on,

but it was definitely

coming on.

Just missing a bit of pickup somewhere.

Yeah,

but I'm,

yeah,

or maybe it was

razzing up the sensor

or,

I don't know what it was doing.

I don't know where the sensor was.

Presuming it was in the old tank.

Then,

yeah.

Oh, no.

Why would it be in the tank?

That's not where the pressure is,

but I don't know where it was.

But then,

and then the other thing,

which is about the fourth

or fifth other thing now,

that I just remember now,

we're having this conversation was,

so group C was all about

fuel consumption.

So any engine you want,

car was what,

900 kilos.

I think it was two meters wide,

4.8 long as maximums.

Any engine you want,

and that's that.

So how they limited the,

or try to even up the cars was

55 litres per 100 kilometre

fuel consumption,

and that was it.

So,

we had all of the cars

had a fuel computer,

which counted up

the litres you were using,

but did it in laps.

So in a 1,000 kilometre race,

it was what,

550 litres.

So in Lamar,

I don't know how they did that

because it's a timed race,

but there was a calculation.

so yeah,

if you've done six laps,

you should see 6.0.

If you see 6.1 usage,

and you've only done six laps,

you're over the fuel,

and you need to get that back,

or you won't make the end of the race.

So I drove quite a lot with

John Nielsen in other years,

and he was super, super fast,

but he would do the first 10,

and you jump in,

and you've done 35 laps,

and the computer says,

36.4.

And he wouldn't care,

just get out, and I get in,

and go, right,

well, you've got to bring all that back.

And it's not efficient.

So if you stay on the line,

that's much more efficient

than using a bit too much

and then pulling it back.

So you're going to lose

a lot more lap time

pulling it back.

So what was the trick?

How did you get it back?

Well, yeah,

there was quite a bit of lifting coast

that you tried to do.

You could use a few less RPM

and things like that,

but lifting coast was quite good,

because the cars were pretty slippery,

so you don't lose much at all

just by lifting a bit earlier

and then breaking quite a bit later.

And you try to bring that back.

I've probably warmed your discs

up a little bit.

Yeah, exactly, yeah.

And especially at the Moor,

probably not such an issue

because you're going so fast there.

If you just lift off for one or two seconds,

you grab a lot back.

So yeah, so you had that,

but the point about the computer

was you were always looking at it.

But then, because obviously

we didn't have tire pressure sensors

in those days,

and what would cause you

to have a blowout on the straight,

which was the main reason

that you put your gains in,

was a slow puncture,

which you couldn't feel.

Because it was held up

by the forces, I guess.

By the forces.

And also, when you get a slow puncture,

you get a little bit more movement

in the sidewall,

which generates more temperature.

So the temperature of the tire goes up

and therefore increases the pressure

from the temperature going up

if it's a very slow puncture.

So the first thing you know is

it's gone bang,

and you're upside down

and it's all not very nice.

So they came up with,

it's a very early version of

let's have a look at the tires

while we're driving.

It was infrared cameras

that looked at the tire,

outside, middle and inside,

on all the tires.

And it would just, yeah,

you could read those numbers.

And to read the numbers,

you had to press a button.

And you could read the numbers on there.

But you didn't need to worry

because if one of the tires

was getting hotter than the other ones,

or hotter than it should,

the light button itself would flash.

So you know,

and then you push it,

and then you can read it,

and then you can come back to the pit.

Well, I would always be going down the straight

because you'd be like,

50 odd seconds flat out.

There we go, that button.

I'm looking at it.

Well, there's no lights flashing,

and I'm thinking,

ah, but what if the bulb's broken?

We'll never know.

So I push this one,

you know, left front,

right front,

left rear, right rear.

Okay, it's fine.

And then you're on the straight

for so long.

You know, it is literally,

it's 50 odd seconds of wide open,

with no race car you ever do that.

And then sometimes,

I even was a little bit paranoid.

Okay, well, what if the bulb's broken now?

You're petrified.

Yeah.

Because the year before,

Wind Percy had had a blowout.

Yeah, a massive crash.

Yeah, 235 miles an hour

flying through the air,

and all the rest of it.

So, you know,

yeah,

it's something you should

think about, at least.

Yeah, yeah.

So was it the fastest car?

On the straight,

the big predator,

there was nothing coming past you.

Well, the great thing was,

the Porsche's had more power than us.

The factory cars,

but we had less drag.

So if you came out of tetra Rouge

onto the straight

and you had a Porsche behind you,

he would just tow past you,

pull back in,

and then,

what, two-thirds of the way down the straight,

you just pull out and go back past the dead.

So you got used to that.

And I remember,

each time they went past,

you just give them a little wave,

and they give you a wave back.

And you pass them back.

It was brilliant.

It's the only place,

I mean, I guess you,

it can happen in Monza,

but even now that's not,

no, it doesn't really even happen now,

but a double tow past on the straight.

And there wasn't anything they could do,

because if they decided not to pass you,

they're still behind you at the end of the straight.

So it's your first Le Mans.

So I was going to say,

I can't think of how many other Le Mans

debutants have won.

Yeah.

And it sounds really grand, isn't it?

You went there,

and you won his first Le Mans.

But hang on a second,

you've got an amazing team.

You've got a load of engineers,

and you've also got Jan and Johnny,

who...

Yeah, I guess that's the fundamental difference, isn't it?

You come from single-seaters,

where, yes, you're in the team,

but the whole team is...

Yeah.

...focused on you, aren't they?

And then suddenly you're in an environment

where you're a smaller, you know,

significant, but still a smaller part

of a much bigger...

Yeah, but you're all on the same side.

And this is,

when you have a teammate in single-seaters,

he's your main enemy.

Yeah, you pretend he's not, but he is.

So in this case,

you're getting advice from your teammates.

Hang on a second.

How does this work?

So it takes a while to get that,

but they even...

We even went to the point where

we drove around the track several times.

They only had a bicycle around the track,

and I think it was even a time

when we walked around the track.

This is all before the race.

Yeah.

And they were showing me everything,

like, there's this curb there,

there's a hole there, there's a...

And...

And this is well before simulators.

Yeah, it is.

So it's the only way you would get

any kind of intimate knowledge

of the circuit.

Yeah.

And then the gearbox on all of these cars,

the gearbox was the weak point in those days,

I guess partly because it was a manual shift

and you can make a mistake,

but it was also the amount of torque

that the engines were putting out

and material science wasn't what it is now.

So Jan sat us all down and said,

look, guys,

we're going to lose the race.

Gearbox is going to break.

And then you sort of go,

oh, well, that's bad.

Why are we...

Yeah, why are we even here?

That's massive effort.

Yeah.

And he said,

well, I've got a solution, I think.

So, but we're going to have to make sure

that we all are on the same page.

Yeah.

This is just your team.

Yeah.

It was just the three of us together.

And we went around and we say,

look, there are some corners you need to use

in a certain gear.

And if you try to use a different gear,

you'll lose time.

But there are some,

like the first one that we did was the S's.

Yeah.

Where it used to be so you came fast over

under the Dunlop Bridge, down to the S's.

That was third gear.

But if you took it in fourth,

there was no time loss.

You had to be a bit more careful that you didn't

lose control of the car,

but you just could take it in fourth.

That engine had so much torque.

Yeah.

So, right.

That is the fourth gear corner.

We will use fourth every single time.

The benefit of that,

Tetra Rouge comes up quite quickly.

So if you go down to third,

you've got to go back to fourth

and then down to third again fourth.

So if you leave it in fourth,

you've eliminated quite a bit.

Yeah.

More than corner,

I think it was another one.

We were a gear up.

So you could use first,

but we were in second.

And we did that in a few places.

I think the Porsche curves as well,

because you're on and off the power through there a lot.

Resin up the whole drivetrain,

on and off, on and off.

And the other thing we,

or Jan was saying that we really should do is,

right, if you are going over the curves,

don't go over the curves on fourth throttle.

Yeah.

So you don't,

you don't get some wheel spin.

So I was thinking,

okay, well, we've got the three of us together.

We've got no way of knowing

if we're all going to stick to that.

But we have to trust that we will.

And that's what we did.

And of course, as you know,

what was it an hour before,

or certainly 40 minutes or so before,

we did have the main shaft and the gearbox break.

And the only thing keeping it together was,

was the gear.

Yeah.

So one or two more shifts,

a little bit more aggressive on the pedal

and it would have been,

wouldn't have made it to the end.

No, it's crazy, isn't it?

It is, it's mad.

I was looking at the list.

So again, correct, if, if I'm...

No, but you were right about this 86,

because the 86 race probably was cancer.

It was the 85 race.

That you remember?

So you started with Jaguar.

So absolutely right team,

right time,

the result, wasn't it?

Then you went to McLaren.

Yeah.

Then you went to Panos.

Panos, yeah.

Which has got to be the weird,

one of the weirdest.

It's an interesting car, for sure.

Because it was a front engine prototype.

Front engine prototype, yeah.

What was that like?

Because he was a,

Don Panos was a very particular kind of guy,

wasn't he?

Sort of a...

Yeah.

So he is a super,

super clever guy,

very, very successful.

But as I say,

invented the snow smoking patch.

Plus, I believe the plastic capsule

that goes around some pills that you,

people pop.

He had a royalty from that for a long time.

Smoked like a chimney,

but then managed to quit smoking by using the patch.

Then,

was doing a big business deal in London,

he was telling me,

he was staying in a posh hotel,

and he fancied a little bit of a smoke,

and he thought,

if I get hooked again,

I'll just use the patch again.

So got hooked on smoking again,

used the patch,

and he couldn't use it anymore,

because he had an allergic reaction.

So he smoked like a chimney for the rest of his life.

But anyway,

I digress.

The eye of it.

But he was very famous for saying things like,

I don't know anything about racing,

but,

and then the butt was great.

He said,

well,

why do the prototypes have the engine in the back?

He said,

well,

because that's where it should be.

It's the best place for it.

Well,

what happens if you put it in front,

in the front?

Oh, you can't do that.

It won't work.

Well,

I don't care.

I want it in the front.

So,

and he went to the Renault DRAXI cars,

and they built him a front engine prototype.

And to be honest,

it was pretty good.

It was pretty good.

Yeah,

I think I'm perhaps one of the very few people

that actually drove the road car version.

Oh, yeah.

Very briefly.

Yeah,

it was a brunting thought.

Oh, right.

It was really good.

It was like a huge catering.

Yeah.

It was really quite nicely balanced

and quite approachable.

It was good under braking.

Very good under braking.

There's a lot of vertical movements.

You were sat pretty much on the rear axle.

Yeah.

Really, really noisy,

as well.

Oh,

because you were behind the exhaust,

I suppose.

Yeah,

you were about the other side.

From your rear.

Yeah,

your left ear was there,

and there was one time,

I can't remember this,

97 or 98 with the panels,

but during the driver change,

when I did the belt up,

it pulled the earplug out,

this one.

Oh,

no.

And I felt it.

When it seems I did the thing up,

and then they shut the door,

and I got a double stent.

And it was awful,

you know,

and your brain then associates this

with pain.

Yeah,

every time you go wide open.

I only got that tested afterwards,

because it was still ringing

on the Wednesday after.

Yeah.

They said,

well, you didn't do it any good.

Yeah,

see a bit of that way.

Done that.

Yeah.

So then you went from there

to the Audi R8C.

Was there a coupe?

Yes.

Oh, yeah.

British run car,

wasn't it,

effectively,

or designs in the...

It's like a dry run

for the Germans,

wasn't it really?

Yeah,

and they didn't know

which way to go,

open or close.

So the R8R and the R8C.

I tested the R8R

with the Yoastip

poorer card,

and in the end,

it ended up

was off of the drive

in the R8C.

And the gearbox

in both of the cars

were

not super strong.

So I think

quite late on in the program,

Yoast said,

no,

we're going to put

pedal shift on it,

because it's not going to last otherwise.

And then obviously,

later on with the

newer R8,

they ended up having

a swappable gearbox.

And of course,

it was too late for us to do that.

So we still had the

sequential gearbox.

And unfortunately,

we all

had gearbox problems.

And then you kind of

circled back

to that car.

We went via Cadillac

for a year.

Yeah.

Which is interesting,

isn't it,

with them coming,

big time back into

insurance racing,

but also...

Yeah, that's right.

Formula one.

Was that a factory

centrally run team,

or was it a

private team that was

practically supported

like I remember?

It was.

It was running in Scots.

I had quite a lot of

success with it.

Running in Scots in the U.S.

anyway,

and we'd run Daytona a few times.

And so

they got the contract

to run the Cadillac

that year.

So

I was in with

Bushley Singer

and

was it Eric Landeport?

He was with us in the Bentley.

Frank Lagorse, maybe.

It's a long time ago.

It's a lot of races.

We had

we had a lot of

good times with that car,

but

the budget

for the whole thing

for a factory operation

was so small

and

it was

never going to be possible.

And everything was ramping up

at that point, wasn't it?

Because you then went to

Bentley, which would have been

a big

pretty big effort.

And then Audi

and all the other manufacturers

were coming in again

at that point, weren't they?

So...

Yeah.

That was that.

And I'd

that was 2000, wasn't it?

So in 1999,

I'd driven the Audi.

So

I started off in that program.

We were testing at

Sebring

and the engine department

were there

and they said,

what do you

what do you think about the engine?

I said, well,

it's nicely drivable.

Everything's good,

but it's

probably missing about

30, 40

horsepower

somewhere around that.

And then he said,

no, it's not.

Yeah, it is.

Anyway, no, no, it's not.

And I said, well,

I just was driving the Audi

last year.

No, no, no, look, I'll show you.

And he produced all the

press packs from all the teams.

All the press packs.

Oh, no.

Look, this is what they've got.

I'm like, you're kidding me.

Basically all kidding me.

So

that was a bit of

a rude awakening.

I think

someone on that front,

and they did get it better,

but it was

definitely down.

That's quite naive, isn't it?

I can't believe that.

Honestly, can't believe that.

So you don't trust what you really do

with the press?

Well, I've written some press

packs.

To be fair,

if it's in Evo,

it's happened.

It's really happened.

So

you've driven

many,

many manufacturer teams.

If you could go

back to

an era

and

and drive for a team that you

didn't

race for.

Or are there any that

you wished you had the

opportunity to race for?

I think

it's a tricky one, isn't it?

Especially when you're talking

about such a long

time racing.

I mean,

you make decisions.

Sometimes the decisions made

for you.

It is what it is.

And I

there isn't anything I really,

I didn't drive

that I wished I had.

Maybe the

the Selber

was going to say

or I mean,

Porsche is an obvious

on the CV, isn't it?

Yeah.

And I always remember

the sound of a 9.62

and I did do.

I think it was for motorsport.

I did a

I think at Donnington

where I drive the car

from

and it

it sounded just like

I remember it sounding

when I was racing against it.

And also I hadn't realised

how lazy the engine was.

Yeah.

Boost build up.

So, because it wasn't a frisky

car at all.

It was a

Yeah.

And a key.

Yeah.

A key to turn it on.

Do you think that?

I mean,

I've written it up to

it must make it

you know,

you get into a certain headspace

when you're driving it

and it's not

Yeah.

Do you

do you think there is

something in that

that the car is

is a little bit more

kind of mellow in

how it does

what it does or

Yeah.

No, I think there is

something in that

and at the time

it's a winning endurance race.

That's what you needed.

And it was great

for the era that it was in

and then of course now

they're crazy manic cars

and it was going that way

very quickly all the time.

But I was at the Mon

88 when you went

and the Jags

would scream past

at the straight

and then the

Porsches had come past

and they sounded

so much more calm

and relaxed

and because you only

get one side of the exhaust

as well.

Yes, of course.

Yeah.

And they just seem to have

that calmness

that would take them

all the way.

But they didn't.

Yeah.

And I suppose they

rasped the gearbox up

a bit less as well.

Yeah.

Because it was a nice

smooth ramp in.

But the whole

of the Group C era

was absolutely amazing.

I think it was

fantastic especially

when you look back on it

and it really was something

and I guess you don't realise

when you're in it

at the time.

Yeah.

It's definitely a

high watermark but

the V-Type was great

but we were struggling

and qualifying

because we couldn't

wind the boost up.

So that's when

we decided to go

the V6 route

and that was just incredible.

Initially quite difficult

to drive.

Mapping and electronics

were nothing like

they are now.

So it was basically

they were able to

map it fully on idle,

quarter throttle

and full throttle.

So basically you drive it

as soon as you go past quarter

you're on full switch.

Yeah.

It was really difficult to drive.

Monster amount of horsepower

in qualifying

when there was no fuel restriction

and it was

I mean I remember

you get out of the car

to qualify

and everything's tingling

because they used to wind

that thing up.

It was something like

1100 or maybe even

a bit more horsepower

and it was so

undriveable at that.

It really was.

I mean as soon as

you went past quarter

you'd be spinning the world

even in top gear.

So with all that downfall

so we were

pleading with them

like

could we have a little bit less?

You know

when did the driver ever say that?

So I think we settled

in qualifying

we settled on a 900 horsepower

map

with a button to press

to get the other 200

which you were straight

and we're not going to crash anymore.

So that I remember really well

and the last race of the year

was Mexico City

and because of the altitude

you don't use anywhere near the

fuel

so we were able to run

we had massive horsepower there

because we were

you know

we were not using all the fuel.

And at the end of

I did the

the last stint

and came into the park ferme

at the end and stopped

and you've got all these group C cars there

and that's it

group C is now

changing for 91

we're going to

F1 engines

and I just sat in the car

I didn't even want to get out in park ferme

and I thought this is

so amazing to drive these

all cars

all this downfalls

and then

I joined Toyota

for 91

it wasn't quite so obvious

where Jaguar were going with their

program

and they

didn't have a car for 91

especially in the beginning

so the job was actually to develop the car

but still I

get out of the car

in Mexico City at the end

and partly I mean thinking

well that's

it's never going to be this good again

you know

how is it going to be

so anyway

how wrong was I

that's the most amazing car

even to this day I think

yes or I

it's

further down the

the line

cars do get better and better and better

but that

TSO10

and then of course

the Peugeot 905

which was the thawing our side one

every event

that car was

absolutely unbelievable

pretty sensational things

the look and the sound

and the

yeah

so we'd gone from 900 kilos to 750

but still full ground effect

and then

Formula 1

3.5 litre Formula 1 engine

which meant we lost a lot of power

and a lot of torque

gone

but the car was so

and the

presumably quite a lot more downforce

than we had

with the 900 kilos

only now we're only 750

so the corner is speaking

the G loads in the corners

that

must have changed the nature of the racing

overnight didn't it

yeah it was

it was amazing

of course no fuel limits

so you weren't worried about that anymore

but just you arrive at a corner which

you would think

oh that's

for sure that's a third-tier corner

and you go around third gear

and halfway around you

you need another gear

so you think well maybe it's

fourth-tier corner

and you go around in fourth gear

and the next like

you go around in fourth gear

even faster

and it was

it wasn't

that

downforce cars are really impressive

in high speed corners

this was

that obviously

but this was really impressive

in the medium speed corners

it had so much downforce

and you just

you would end up

after

half a dozen laps

you come in the piss

and they are asking you

what the car's like

and you're like

you just haven't been

breathing enough

your lungs are getting

squashed in the corners

you have to really tell yourself

to keep breathing

it was incredible

when do you think

you were at your

peak

as a

because sometimes result

you got your big early results

but you're obviously still developing

as a

as an endurance

driver

and you're

kind of racing

brain

do you think they coincided

or do you think you were

continuing to get

no I think it was a bit early

just from

not age wise

obviously

I was 27

that year

but

just I hadn't had the experience

of driving this kind of car

so later on

you get a lot more experience

but you don't

then find yourself

in the same

situation

to be able to do

the Le Mans again

I mean there were two

very very close ones

in 90

and 95

yeah

but still

it didn't happen again

but I think

yeah I was

probably driving better

in both those years

yeah

but I mean

that's

the way it goes

but

if you go

if you're back to

TSO 1.0 again

we were quite often

sharing

race tracks with

couple of F1

teams

and actually it would have been

again

Tyrell and Arrows

and an F1

without drive

was 540 kilos

and we were 750

when they filled

those cars up with fuel

and we were testing together

we were quicker than them

because we had a lot less drag

than them

we were

we were full

grown effect

and so

there were tracks

we

I was thinking

Monza and

Paul Riccardo

the ones that stick out in my mind

but

Monza

McLaren had been there

with

Eton Senna

for

couple of days

I think

we did

join them

I think

I think we ended up

with some days on our own

but I think we joined them

where they were there

through one of the days

and our lap times

were almost identical

it was incredible

and I think this is

one of the reasons

Group C had been quite

successful

even before these cars

came out

and I think there was a lot of

fan base

and that's in the end

why it got

squashed

but it was incredible

how quick they were

over a lap

and

the limiting factor

because these things

were so

four carbon-carbon brakes

and only 750 kilos

and all the downforce

we still had

H-Pattern gearboxes

in those days

and that was the

limiting factor

so you arrive at

Monza

the chicane used to go

left right first

but still you needed

to get second gear

so to go

6, 5, 4, 3, 2

the cars already stopped

when you brake

you brake so late

with the carbon brakes

that you just

couldn't get the gear

and it was really

holding it up

so I think if you

could have had paddle shift

on that car

they would have been

even quicker

and you say

why are you going through

all the gears

surely it's better

to miss some out

and it is

especially with the speed

that you're losing

but the

the gates were

very, very close together

and we had a lot of instances

where you went from

say 6 to 4

and got second

or worse still

there were occasions

where you went first

second

and when you went to third

you got first

and believe the thing

to smithereens

so

quite clever

Toyota

they worked

I guess with the

gearbox manufacturer

and they put

a lot of mechanical

lockouts on

so you couldn't get

first from second

so when you came in the pits

down in second

you had to go third

first

and then you couldn't go

6-2

you could only go 6-4

so with those mechanical

lockouts

we were able to not blow

the engine up

but still you got to

pretty knife edge stuff

though isn't it

until the

developed that

and we didn't really

if you've never experienced

pneumatic paddle shift

you don't

know what you're missing

but then

the cars get to such a point

and now you need it

so there was one time

I'll just go back to this

Monza story with

with

you know how you forget

things as you get older

you wouldn't know you're not old

but there are certain things

there are certain things

which you

from your past

like I could tell you

every single gear ratio

in the gearbox

from brand searching

Formula Ford

and then in qualifying

we four speeded it

because you're not taking

the start obviously

so you'd put an 1832

in the place of first gear

which is really a second gear

and I know all those

and similarly

I know that

Senator had done a 26.8

at Monza

and that was his best lap

and I'm out there

doing a stint in the TSO

and I did a 27 flat

and a 269

and then I did

a 268

and I'm thinking that's it

right this is where

it's all going to happen

I'm now

I'm going to go faster than that

but in order to do that

I've got to get it

into second gear

really quickly

because that's what's

holding me up

how late I could brake

so I arrived down there

I hunked on the brake

for all I was worth

I grabbed the gear lever

I managed to smash it

into second gear

so early

I looked at the rear wheels

I spun off and landed in the gravel

and I was looking back

up the straight

and no I never beat him

but it was close

it was close

we've got a couple of days

we've got so much ground

to cover

the one blank I have

in what you did in your career

was tin top racing

I'm never ever associating you

with saloon car, touring car

racing

but you had a brief spell

there was a little bit

yeah I did

one or two races

might have only been one race

in BTCC

which I hadn't

I completely forgotten about that

that was fun

it was a BMW

and actually

I had also done some testing

for Nissan

when they were going from

two-wheel to four-wheel

so they had both

my job was to help develop

the four-wheel drive car

so doing a lot in the four-wheel drive car

and jumping back in the two-wheel

and that was my only experience

really of tin tops

I got this race there

and it was

I'm not going to put any names

into any of this

because it

I'll go on

no I'm not

because it will go badly

I'm sure

but

I wasn't

super fast

because

I don't know anything

it's very specialised

but I was similar speed

to my teammate

and it was a

privateer car

and we were

kind of doing okay

and I had a chat

with some of the

drivers

and I was raining

after each other

I guess at the time

or close by

and nobody seemed to

actually want to

pass on any tips

so I thought

I'll just try

and do it myself

and then so

I think probably qualified

10 or 12

or it wasn't pretty

let's put it that way

but in the race

managed to pass a couple

and my teammate

had qualified in front of me

and I got past him

at one point

this is Alton Park

and then

he was behind me

I could see him in the mirror

behind me and everything

and we get to

is it lodged the last corner

yeah it happened

yeah oh no

yes

yeah lodge yeah

so we look at the elite

and that's it

yeah so

I see where he is

and everything

he's not going to dive on me

or anything like that

so I break

I go down the gears

and then he just goes

and he punts me off

so I bounce down the grass

and everything

and he passes me back

and I thought

okay

this is how it works

into and causes it

right

so carry on

carry on carry on carry on

and I think we were

in the top 10

a pair of us by now

which isn't spectacular

but it's better than a plug

you know

and now the last lap

I'm in front of him again

and I look in and see

and I think

well I'm not that stupid

I know exactly

what's going to happen here

so I went to the inside

and I'm travelling down

on the inside

and I see him

he's coming he's coming

he's going to punt me off

so

I thought

well there's only one way

to fix this

so I just stood on the brake

carry it on

yeah and I beat him

so there you go

are there any

conversations

no

and that folks

didn't happen

there you go

anyway

at the end of your touring

well I only did one race

but I just thought

that was so rude

to punt your teammate off

I guess it happens

but

as you say

the biggest competitor

is your

yeah

it is an art form as well

isn't it

I think

in that type of racing

the physicality

of the driving

there's a line

to cross somewhere

but no one quite

knows

where that line is

I suppose

yeah

well but then

I did in 1994

I did the

DTM didn't you

yeah

and that was fantastic

because

in those days

I mean

before I know

it's still good now

with G3 cars

but in those days

it was spectacular

those races

so

it was a privateer

Audi

Alfa

for

Schubert team

and they were running

to new ones

so this was a separate class

the new cars

had ABS

the year old cars

didn't

and they were very difficult to drive

four wheel drive

and as soon as you locked

one wheel

you'd get a lot of

diff-rappling

engine would stop

and then you crash

and I found that

out at a hook and eye

and when I got back to the pit

I was going to say it sounds like you speak

from a fixed spirit

the first corner

and they go back

and they said

what happened

I crashed in the race

what happened

I locked a wheel

and then there was this noise

from the diffs

and then the engine stopped

and I crashed

and I went

oh yeah

we meant to tell you about that

but when you hear that noise

you're supposed to lift

the brake off

I'll crash anyway

presumably

so anyway

so that was

that was fine

they didn't have any money

and it was

in the end

it was a mess

and we all went

to Helen

I didn't get paid

and it was

it was a big mess

but it was

quite an interesting

learning curve

and just impressive

watching

how

popular the DTM was

because they were

really high revving

V6s at that point

weren't they

yeah

so the cars

had to be non-turbo

I don't know

if the cylinders were

specified

but yeah

this was a V6

Merck would have been a

I think they were

yeah I think they were

so the

so 2.5 litres

that's the other thing

it was a 2.5 litre

capacity limit

and then

yeah

but they were getting

this monster horsepower

from these things

by spinning them really fast

and I just remember

the Alpha

the TAC went from

0 to 7

and then 7

to 14

well if you're on the

first page

it wasn't going anywhere

it was

it was really weird

and they just wouldn't

pull it on

as soon as you got on

at the second page

it was off

like a robber's dog

and it was

it was absolutely brilliant

so you'd be

you'd be driving this car

anyway

the other thing too

of course with

being 4WD

the Mercks were 2WD

I believe

weren't they

yeah I think they were

so if you

add a little bit of

banging about

and you got knocked on

the grass

and it had been raining

and the grass was all wet

you could just stay

wide open

you didn't even have

the opposite lock on

you could just keep

your wheel where you were

the car would rotate

with all the wheels

still pointing in the right direction

and come back

and it was

it was absolutely brilliant

but the occasion

you walk into the track

there are a number of fans

that were there

and it was

it was

absolutely magic

so would you've done

so Hockenheim

would you

I'm just trying to think of

the circuits you would have

raced on them

were they still on the

Nurburgring

Nordschleife at that point

or have they gone to

again there was not

many ways to learn

the Nurburgring

at that time

so they gave me

this massive bag

of Deutsche Marks

and they gave me a road car

and they said

right go and learn the track

so

put some in

put some Deutsche Marks

in the box

and did some laps

after a couple of laps

of course you get

the oil and brakes

and everything

so hot so I had to stop

and so I did that

a couple of times

still I couldn't

I mean it's just

so many corners

to know where you are

with it

but my

teammate

was he driving

he was sometimes driving

a third

new factory car

Stefano Boutiero

super nice guy

and he said

oh it looks like

you've got your car

quite hot

do you want to come

round in a passenger seat

with me

because I know the track

quite well

that's a bit dangerous

doing that

sitting next to another racing driver

horrible

but I thought

what can I lose

apart from my life

so I sat next to him

in the car

and I watched him

drive round there

and I'm like

if I did a thousand laps

I couldn't do it

as good as you just did

he was

absolutely

perfect

everywhere

I mean he really

knew what he was doing

and he obviously

knew the track really well

I think it's hard to

overstate isn't it

the sort of pre-sim

in how he learned

the circuit

and post-sim

that's the wildest

totally different isn't it

yeah and if you try

and video it

or you try and do anything

it's not the same

when you're in the car

but I had a

massive respect for him

after that

and later on

he did a bit of

prototype racing

but he never had any money

and I was always trying

to help him out

because I thought

this guy's really good

if he had some money

or he got a drive somewhere

he would have won a lot of races

but then

of course this was 94

so then

Imela happened

with Roland

Gretzenberg on

left and centre

and they cancelled the race

and put it on the Grand Prix

circuit

which is just as well

because I still was

nowhere near as fast

as he was

on the track

yeah so that's what we did

but

I had a white car

it was a white car

it was initially

Andy Wallace on downforce injuries, winning Le Mans & his motorsport career | part one

About this episode

endurance racing

Le Mans

Sebring

Eagle Toyota Mark III

ground effects

downforce

monster springs

flat out

190 miles an hour

British Formula Three championship

Formula Ford 1600

Formula Four

carbon fibre

monocoque

spool

Formula 3

Macau

F1 teams

Tyrrell

Arrows

Formula 1

wobble

white line

spin

Jaguar XJL9

horsepower

Renault 5

lap times

Jaguar Etype

Jaguar Dtype

Porsche 911 GT3

Lamborghini Diablo VT

Honda Civic

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