Bellavia on Scout Lawsuit, Van Ryn on Training, Lange on Fleet | Daily Dealer Live

Hey everybody, welcome back to yet another episode of The Daily Deal Alive.

I'm your host Sam Dark and thanks to you for choosing to be here on this Wednesday the 4th of March.

So today's show might be one of the most important conversations we've ever had on Daily Deal Alive

because in our industry the question isn't whether the auto industry is changing, it is. The question is

this, who in the future will have the relationship with the customer and will be able to connect with

the customer best? Right now there's a massive lawsuit against Volkswagen over its new Scout

brand selling vehicles directly to consumers filed yesterday bypassing the existing dealer

network entirely. We'll leave the news with this story in just a moment. Dealers claim Volkswagen

created Scout as a workaround of franchise law and if they win, if Scout wins, if Volkswagen wins,

it could open the door for every OEM to launch new brands and to sell direct. Think about that.

Ford launches a new EV brand, GM launches a new tech brand, Toyota launches a new software first

brand and suddenly dealers are cut out of the transaction. No sales gross, no F&I, no trade ins,

no service relationship. Well today we're talking to the attorney leading the charge against Volkswagen

and we're talking and we're asking the real question dealers need to understand. Is this the

beginning of the end of the franchise system or is it the moment dealers push back? Then also on

today's episode we'll talk culture leadership and one of the most interesting F&I strategies

increasing PVR right now. And as a reminder to you, our daily dealer listening audience,

we are streaming across all CDG social media platforms. Post your comments in, tell us what

you think about this suit, tell us what you think about the things that we bring up today on today's

show. Your comments will help guide today's show. Welcome to Daily Deal Alive. And first,

today's automotive industry headlines. I mentioned it in our opener, breaking news. We're starting

with a big legal development out of the auto retail world. Two Volkswagen dealers, one out of New

York and one out of Connecticut filed a class action lawsuit yesterday against Scout Motors.

Scout Motors sales LLC, Volkswagen Group of America and Volkswagen AG and Federal Court in

Virginia. At the heart of it, plaintiffs allege that Volkswagen has a contractual obligation

to sell vehicles through its authorized dealer network and that Scouts direct to consumer model,

well, it violates that agreement. For context, Scout has already collected an estimated $15

million in reservation fees from roughly 150,000 customers and they all bypass the dealer network

entirely. If you're a VW dealer out there, this case automatically covers you. So say the attorneys,

with the plaintiffs attorney saying damages could run into the billions. Safe to say other

manufacturers will be watching this one closely. Next up in news today, keeping with the legal

beat, a fraud ring bust out of Miami Dade County is putting a spotlight on a threat that dealers

may be underestimating. Authorities say a former dealership finance manager and a broker, by the

way, we're going to continue our broker conversation next Wednesday with the broker perspective on that

distribution model, back to the story. A broker recruited straw buyers to secure over a million

$5 in fraudulent auto loans across two Florida stores. The scheme is what is known as bust out

fraud, where bad actors build up credit profiles, load up on loans, then, well, they intentionally

default. One elderly buyer alone had nearly $436,000 in loans approved across six vehicles.

Fraud strategists say this type of activity jumped 16% last year, with the average dealer missing

most of it because these buyers often look picture perfect on paper. It's astounding to me as an

aside out of the news, how fraud is prevalent and how the bad folks, the bad actors are becoming

more creative in ways that they're perpetrating the fraud. And finally up or next up today in the

news, shifting now to the supply chain, bankrupt auto parts supplier first brands is closing on

a creditor settlement and Ford and GM are playing a key role in keeping things moving. The company,

which filed for bankruptcy last September with more than $9 billion in liabilities,

has been unable to find a single buyer for its operations, largely due to alleged fraud tied

to its founder. As a result, it's now pursuing separate sales of its four business lines,

with Ford currently sourcing parts from three of them, both Ford and General Motors have actually

prepaid for parts to keep production flowing during the process. But Ford's attorney said

it plainly in court every day these operations aren't more stable hands is a production

risk. And finally up today, some trade policy news out of Canada that's worth keeping an eye on.

Canadian finance minister, Francois Philippe Champagne is moving to tighten the country's

automotive remission framework. Essentially, the system that allows automakers to import a set

number of vehicles, tariff free in exchange for maintaining production and investment in Canada.

The government has already cut annual remission quotas for GM and Stellanus by significant margins

and is now inviting industry feedback on further changes through April 13th. This comes

as USMCA review talks heat up and US Canada trade tensions remain elevated. Still, for dealers,

tighter import rules could mean more volatility and model mix, tighter vehicle availability on

import heavy name plates, and potential pricing pressure on both sides of the border. One to

watch as negotiations develop. And that is a wrap on today's industry headlines.

Again, feel free to type into the comments, join the conversation today as we talk about this

Volkswagen suit. And as we talk about the different distribution models that are out there direct

to consumer franchise model, even broker, which we'll hit again next Wednesday. But let's dive

straight into our conversation today. First up, my guest Leonard Belavia, founding partner of

Belavia Cohen PC Leonard, Len, welcome to the show. Sam, great to be with you. Thanks for having

me on. Thanks for being here. And thanks for coming on the car dealership guy daily dealer

live to break this news of your lawsuit. Let's start bulletly. Did Volkswagen intentionally

try to bypass the dealer network with Scout collecting deposits and and seeking legally

to move forward at selling vehicles direct to consumer in the United States?

Yeah, I think Sam, the best way to put it is that Volkswagen brazenly did an end run around

the franchise laws in every state in the country to one degree or another. I mean,

there are some states that outright prohibit direct to consumer sales. Other states are a little

murky, but we don't even have to go there because the dealer agreement between Volkswagen and its

franchise dealers expressly states that authorized vehicles and we can get into why Scout is an

authorized vehicle will be sold directly to dealers. So, you know, my view, I've been doing this for

39 years representing dealers in disputes with manufacturers, manufacturers bank on the reality

that most dealers do not want to engage their OEM and illegal battle. So typically that's reserved

for termination, defending termination cases or ad points, things like that. So I guess the general

rule in my experience is only when the OEM crosses that red line will a dealer or group of dealers

say enough is enough and bring legal action. And that's what happened here because it's rather

apparent that VW knows that the worldview Scout as a wholly owned subsidiary. I mean, when you look at

I'm sure you read the lawsuit, you'll see all of the indicia of, you know, the financial control,

the operational control that both VW the parent and VW of America has over Scout,

even transferring key executives from VW to Scout. So we call it a thinly veiled shell game. So,

you know, there's enough here where dealers can say, hey, look, I don't want to take on the factory

if I'm not going to hit them between the eyes. But this is a case really where

the VW is going to have a very difficult time defending its actions.

So the two dealers in particular came to you and said, hey, we want to file this suit.

And there's this word putative, which as I understand, it brings all dealers across the

United States. Before we talk about what if Volkswagen wins? What does that mean for the

network? Let's first cover how are you covering all dealers across the US if they want to be

covered? And how are you the right voice to be making this case in courts on behalf of these

two dealers and potentially all Volkswagen dealers across the US? Sure. So one of the

obstacles of, you know, dealership attorneys is not advising them on the illegal rights. You can

tell a dealer, you know, up and down that they have a right to fight against the manufacturer.

99 out of 100 will not do that for a lot of reasons, political reasons, operational reasons,

and litigation costs are very high. The class action litigation model is the answer to that

because there are no legal fees that dealers have to pay if we prevail in the case and the court

will direct the defendant to pay what they consider to be a reasonable attorney's fee

based on all these different factors. So why would a dealer take on the manufacturer in a case

like this when they really feel the threat that their empire potentially could crumble? And,

you know, I've said that this is not really purely a VW case. It's really a case that should be

important to dealers of all brands because if VW gets away with this, you could rest assured.

I mean, we already know that Honda has formed a new venture with Sony. So that's probably a year

or two behind this. But if companies like Volkswagen, you know, the largest automotive

manufacturer in the world or up there anyway, and Honda are thinking of doing this and we've

seen other attempts to do this. I mean, keep in mind, this is not Tesla. It's not Rivian.

It's not Lucid. You know, that's a totally different model because they don't have an existing

network of dealers. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Volkswagen, you're saying initially had a distribution network.

Now they're seeking to go around it. What do you say to the industry folks that say, look,

Ford tried this in the past. In the 90s, Ford tried something called the auto collection.

They bought up dealers and they tried to sell direct. It didn't succeed as my memory serves.

What would you say to the folks that say, hey, let the free market win. If the dealer distribution

network is better, it'll win in the free market. If direct to consumers better, it'll win. Let's

let free market dictate. Well, I guess there's several answers to that. One is 125 years of

doing this doesn't mean it's wrong. If anything, it means it's been refined and protected over the

years. You and I I'm sure have listened to all the reasons why consumers don't like to interact

with dealers in the purchase process. You know, I don't get too upset when I read comments from

consumers because I appreciate what they're saying. I just don't think that they are immersed in the

industry enough to realize that the dealer franchise model is better for them. You know,

sometimes I feel like I'm preaching to the choir when I'm speaking to consumer groups.

We all know the pain point of going in and buying a car. However, that's only one small aspect of

the relationship. You know, your viewers, I'm sure know all the bullet points about why the

franchise system is better. It provides for competition. It creates convenience for service.

You don't have to deal with some central location where it takes 45 minutes to find out the status

of your car while it's in for service. You don't have to be without your car for days at a time.

You can navigate through recalls. Most consumers, 60% of consumers have trade ins. How does direct

to consumer deal with those consumers who have trade in? There really is no magic answer to

that right now. And not every consumer has an 800 credit score. So dealers do a fabulous job at

trying to get consumers bought, so to speak. So I could spend hours in on talking about why the

direct to consumer model is not consumer friendly. But putting that aside, there's a reason that all

50 states have, we're not talking about one unified political party. There's Democratic

states, there's Republican states, and they've all figured out that the franchise model of selling

and leasing cars is best for consumers. Yeah, of course it protects dealers, but it's best for

consumers. So yeah, the free market may sort it out. But I speak to a lot of consumers, speak to

dealers and consumers. I know a lot of friends of mine that have Teslas and they say, yeah, I mean,

the buzz is kind of worn thin and their next vehicle will be from a dealer. So I think we'll

sort itself out, but it kind of has done that already. So we had on the show several weeks

ago, we had Alan Haig. He works in the M&A marketplace. He deals with Bicell. And he made

a great point about Volkswagen and Scout. He said he hopes calmer heads prevail and Volkswagen

pulls back this model. He says, look, in the United States, Volkswagen, and this is my recollection

of what he said, Volkswagen created value in that ban through its dealer network. It asked

dealers to build beautiful facilities, invest in those facilities, those technicians. And they've

built this network and this distribution, selling the brand Volkswagen, which has value because

of that network. And he said, it's not right to have an entity come in like Scout and piggyback on

that existing brand and try to distribute direct piggybacking off of that brand. And I'm using my

own recollection of what he said. How do you, as you think about going after damages with Volkswagen,

if they're successful with this, how do you calculate the value of that network that U.S.

auto dealers have created through the franchise network as you seek to protect that?

Well, to add salt to that wound that was just pointed out is the fact that it wasn't that long

ago that all of the most of the existing VW dealers stuck by VW when they went through the

diesel gate scandal. That was a real painful period of time, not just for VW, but for VW

consumers who had vehicles that they really couldn't market for what they thought they couldn't

sell them at what the fair market value was before the scandal arose. And then you have

dealers who continue to stick with the franchise, continue to do the things that Volkswagen wanted

them to do like modernizing their facilities and all of the other things that provide for the

infrastructure. So isn't it the ultimate stick in the eye that after they recovered that they

decided, you know, it reminds me of the person that stays with the medical student all throughout

medical school and the day of graduation, they dump the person and go with someone else. It's

very analogous. So dealers have a lot to be annoyed about not just based on the business model and

and the legal prohibition, but it's also kind of gut-wrenching that Volkswagen is doing this at

a point in time where dealers really showed their loyalty over the years. So what do you make of

that as you put together the suit and ultimately file that you're pursuing this? What do you make

of Volkswagen taking this action to your point on the tail of diesel gate and some of the other

challenges they've had as an OEM, you would think they'd be the least likely in the least position

from a strength standpoint to pursue something like this. Why do this now if you're Volkswagen?

Well, you know, I'm sure they're looking at dealers as middlemen. Dealers are not middlemen per se,

but to the extent that the margins can be improved by dealing direct and not having to worry about

competition and mandating prices and all the reasons that this is not a good thing for consumers.

You know, there's always been friction between manufacturers and dealers. There's never been

a period where it was a total love fest. There's always give and take and push back and it generally

gets worked out. You know, in this particular case, and I'm sure ATAEs all over the country will tell

you, they have attempted to sit down at a table with the president and CEO of Scout and didn't

even get a return phone call or a responsive letter. So it's almost like Scout has been inviting this

type of a response. I mean, it's a class action lawsuit by all of your dealers is a big deal.

It means your network is very unhappy with you. And granted, no, not every dealer raised their

hand and called me. However, you know, based on the litigation model, they will be part of the case

once the court certifies this as a bona fide class action. And, you know, getting to your point,

Sam, about the damages and how to quantify the damages. It's not just the lost profit on the

initial sale. It's the FNI. It's the value of having a trade in 60% of the transactions involved

trade in. It's warranty, parks and labor. It's customer pay labor. There's empirical data to

support, you know, repeat business, not only from that customer, but from family and friends of

that customer. So the damages model, you know, for 600 dealers across the country goes into

the many billions of dollars. So Volkswagen really needs to take a time out and pause and say, is

this worth the fight? A, we might lose. And B, we're going to severely diminish the quote unquote

going concern or blue sky value of our dealer network. And it hurts dealers because now they

have to worry about, you know, the ability when they want to retire or exit the industry to sell

their dealership for fair market value. So this really has implications across the board from

consumers to local municipalities to state agencies and governments and local churches and

little leagues. And, you know, this is a real disruption, an attempted bad faith disruption.

So that's why I think dealers have said enough is enough. And the other dealers that I speak to

that I represent from other brands are saying, you know, kudos to these two dealers, these two

dealers that have stood up in the New York dealer and the New Jersey dealer really deserve a round

of applause from all of the dealers across the country who said, who spearheaded this initiative.

I think I predict that, you know, Honda dealers will be next and anyone else that seeks to cross

the line, because there's often an awful lot of sacrifice that dealers have made across the

country to get where they are now. So before we talk next steps, let's go to the comments,

several comments online. Paul Salisman says, companies conveniently forget the past

when new leadership is installed. So the inference there being mean, meaning a rotation

in leadership there at Volkswagen law cocktail comes in says, I was a VW Audi dealer through

dieselgate. Every day it felt like they fought us on selling cars night and day difference between

our other OEM brands in the group, then Dancy comes in, I hear all the arguments

here, but it really gets down to how the consumers treated in the buying process. Can Will

direct sales from the manufacturers improve the process is the real question. So what is the steps

now? The suit is filed, you've got two dealers on board with it, you say everyone could be a party

to it nationwide. What are the next steps? What are the deadlines and how soon do you project

this getting resolved? Sure. So the next steps really are to speak to other VW dealers. We expect

other VW dealers will want to be front and center and be named in the caption. We don't need any

more, but I'd like to get maybe three or four more just to cover the geographic. We have East

Coast dealers. I'd like to get a couple of West Coast or Midwestern dealers. The next steps will

be Volkswagen will, like in any lawsuit, make a motion and scout will make a motion to seek to

dismiss the case. They'll argue that, well, reservations are not sales. Well, then why do

you take $100 if it's not a sale? Why not just take a reservation in the true sense of the word,

like when you make a reservation at a restaurant, they don't ask for their $100 deposit. So it's

a disguise. It's part of their defensive preemptive measure to say they're not violating the law by

calling it a reservation. So that was tactical, but when the customer forks over $100, that's a

business transaction, and it falls within the definition of a sale, which is what is prohibited

under most state statutes. So they'll make their motion to dismiss. Presumably it will get denied.

The case will continue through the discovery stage. There'll be depositions. We'll get all the

records. I mean, we have enough data out there because, you know, in these big OEM companies,

they kind of like the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. So, well, the CEO

level, the C-suite level is saying, no, we don't even know who the scout is. The marketing level

is out there saying consumers buy this product. It's not a startup. So I don't think they all

said at the same table when they were putting out these, you know, disparate messages. So that

will certainly help the case. They pretty much established the case of liability on our behalf

by making those wildly inculpatory statements. So then we'll go through discovery. Ultimately,

it could take a couple of years to get to the point where we're getting closer and closer to trial.

There'll be a motion for summary judgment, but both parties will say we don't even need a trial.

Our respective cases, our case and the defense, is clear cut. The judge should either find in our

favor or in Volkswagen's motion, they'll say it should be dismissed altogether. And depending on

the outcome of that, you know, the case will proceed to trial if the plaintiffs prevail.

And then, you know, keep in mind most cases settle. My co-counsel in this case is Hagen's

Berman. Volkswagen knows them very well. Hagen's Berman has the record in this country of getting

the highest class action recovery in the automotive industry ever. It was $15 billion

against who? Well, Volkswagen, the same party. So Volkswagen is going to take this case very

seriously. Ultimately, hopefully they relent and realize they should sit down with dealer counsel

and the attorneys involved and try and get back to square one and recognize the value of the dealer

network. Or if they remain steadfast, then they're going to have to write an awfully big check, in

my opinion, when this case is concluded. So most cases settle, though. So we're hopeful that we

can show them that they're going to lose. And therefore, we don't want, we don't want dealers

to litigate. We don't want our clients to spend, you know, hours and days and months in court.

We want to, we want a resolution that's consistent with the law. I just think that Volkswagen never

had really any anyone aiming at them. They felt this way with impunity. I mean, there's a case,

a smaller case in Florida, but it's not a class action. There's another case in California,

brought by the California Dealer Association, that's not seeking money damages. So this is really the

one that has them in the crosshairs. And I think they'll pay close attention to. So we'll see what

happens. So speaking of those other cases and kind of the general frustration in the dealer

environment, what's the biggest misconception about state franchise law? Why can't state

franchise law in Florida or Colorado or Utah or Michigan, why can't it address this on its own?

There's an agreement between an OEM and a dealer to distribute. Why is state franchise law insufficient

by itself to remedy or address this issue? I think there's about, I'm going to say, roughly 30

states that outright expressly prohibit direct to consumer sales as long as there is a dealer network.

Some even say Tesla and Rivian can't sell direct to consumers. So there's different

levels of prohibition. Some states don't say anything. The problem with that is that the

tapestry of 50 states requires, if you want to take this state by state, is that one dealer in

each state, I should say all dealers in each state bring 50 different lawsuits. It's just too

cumbersome. It's a long process. It produces inconsistent results. It's thankless. And that's

why the class action model is a litigation model whose time has come because it unifies. We're

proceeding on a breach of the general contract that VW has with all its dealers in all 50 states.

So we're not really stepping into this maze of statutory prohibitions. We're saying,

this is what your contract says, your dealer agreement, you violated it. And by the way,

it happens to violate the industry custom and practice, which prohibits these type of direct

to consumer practices. All right. Going back into the comments, a longtime listener, Dan C comes in

and he says, hey, if this goes to trial, will it be a judge or a jury that makes the final decision

on this? Sure. We're requesting a jury trial. That's the plaintiff's rights. The difference is,

you know, the judge will decide what law applies and will instruct the jury. The jury decides on

the facts. The jury will hear the facts and decide, for example, is Scout the alter ego

of Volkswagen. So they'll see all the documents in the corporate minutes and everything that we

think is going to be probative of whether Scout and Volkswagen are one and the same,

and that'll be up to the jury. And if the jury does find that, then the judge will instruct the jury.

So, you know, each party, the judge and the jury has their own distinct legal responsibility.

So that's why jury trials are preferred, because generally speaking, you know,

lead people understand things with a fresh point of view. They're not wanting to deal

so much into the facts as they do reading the law. And I'm just curious, what state

will that jury trial eventually end up in if it were to go that far? We filed a case in Virginia,

because that is where the offices of both the defendant, Scout and Volkswagen coincidence,

they happen to be in the same state, right? But they don't know each other. So the case will be

litigated in the state of Virginia. So last two questions. Your opinion, actually two opinion

questions. You mentioned state franchise law, you mentioned the franchise system in the United

States. It's 100 plus years of case law and history contract law. Is the is the franchise

system stronger today? Or is it more vulnerable today because of attempts like this by Volkswagen

and other OEMs to go direct? I think it's vulnerable because there's consumer sentiment

that's expressed, you know, to legislators that they somehow feel that, you know,

dealers are in the way of a happy, seamless transaction. It takes a lot of work for the

ATAEs and they all do a very, very good job. I take my hats off to them. Explaining to lawmakers

why the franchise system with all its problems is better for consumers and it's better, you know,

for local government, for all the reasons we discussed earlier. So it's a difficult process

and sometimes you feel like, you know, you're not making your points, but by and large state

legislators understand the value of the franchise model. It takes a long time to get there. So I

think though that, you know, everyone wants to come in and fix something. You know, you get, you

get, you know, these newer executives and they want to make their mark. So here, you know, you have

the VW executives, including their president, who thinks that all the other manufacturers

for 125 years have gotten it wrong. You know, I usually make the analogy, there was one,

one airline out there that didn't have reserve seats for their customers. You just went in like

cattle. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wonder who that is. Yeah, we all know who that is. And finally,

they titulated like last week, I think, recently, he said, you know what, maybe if our system was so

great, maybe one other airline would copycat us. And after years and years and years of realizing,

you know, maybe we didn't build a better mousetrap. So, so I think that's what's happening here with

Volkswagen. And they think they finally arrived at the answer. And now they're realizing, you know,

the jig is up. The dealers aren't buying it. Consumers aren't buying it. Lawmakers aren't

buying it. And, you know, this whole tapestry of trying to make it look like scout is some third

party that just kind of came up from the ashes. And who are they? You know, that's worn thin too.

So, so, you know, Volkswagen is really at an inflection point. And they have to decide whether

the dealers are a friend or foe. And if they make the wrong decision, I think it's a precarious

circumstance for them. Because ultimately, when they're when no one's looking, they will make

the concession that dealers are their biggest asset. Maybe it's a weak moment that they tell

you the truth. But we have it. I mean, we've done a lot of investigation. And we know that

they value the dealers. But if they can get away with something and enhance their bottom line,

they'll try it until they get caught. So my hope is that we're at the point now where they got

they got caught. And now they have some serious decision making to do.

Well, Leonard Bolivia, we would absolutely love to have you back on the show for some updates as

this case progresses through the court system. Wish you the best of luck in defending this

automotive dealer franchise system. Fanning partner, Bolivia, Cohen PC. Leonard Bolivia,

thank you so much for being on the show today for sharing. And we go to the comments, just some

great comments online. Dealer Insight says this is an interesting case. And I'm sure many dealers

are anxious to see the results of the case play out. Also, Paul Salisman comes into the comments

says Rivian is spending heavily on lobbying here in Washington state to allow more direct sales.

And I do think the difference that he pointed out is definitely worth noting, which is

there's a difference between an entity that goes direct to consumer and never had a distribution,

Tesla, Rivian, some of these others, and then a difference between somebody like Volkswagen

that had distribution dealers invested, built up this big network, and they're seeking to go around

it. There's got to be something different there. That's just my lay opinion and lay viewpoint.

But let's talk Great America. Today's episode is brought to you by Great America, Great America

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for supporting today's content, including that fascinating conversation we just had about this

suit filed against Volkswagen. Again, breaking news here daily dealer live, you heard it,

the conversation with the attorney that is at the center of the suits brought by two dealers

looking to defend the franchise system in the United States. So thanks again for being on and

thanks to Great America for supporting today's content. You can scan the QR code or if you're

listening to this after the recording, you can go into the show notes and go get more information

there. Let's keep today's momentum. Next, we turn back to my own home. Every now and again,

I get to have our own folks at the Ziggler Auto Group on the show and today is just another one

of those days. Mike Van Rijn, Vice President of Talent Development, Ziggler Auto Group. Mike,

welcome to the show. Well, thank you, Sam. Honored to be here. We're shifting gears, aren't we? Going

from lawsuits and lawyers to culture. That's right. We get to shift and by the way, just

as a little side note, people often ask, and I think there were a couple of questions in the

comments, does Ziggler have a Volkswagen Audi store? We'd absolutely love to have an Audi store,

but we don't currently. So we don't have a dog in that race. However, what I would say is the

outcome of that will end up having a lot to do with the future of the franchise model. So all

right, Mike, let's talk, let's start here. Ziggler Auto Group, 51 years, 41 stores, four states,

2,700 employees. Aaron Ziggler hired you a certain number of years ago to head up talent and

development. And you were at that time a elementary school principal. What does a dealer at one of

the nation's largest privately held automotive groups go to a principal for when he starts to

think about culture and development? Well, Sam, that's a great question. And like a lot of our

listeners out there, they probably never thought they'd find themselves in the automotive industry.

And it's been it's been a fun journey for 20 years. Ziggler Auto Group. And I never thought I was

going to be working in automotive. And it's been an absolute blast. As you know, first hand, because

of our team and because of our people. But, you know, hats off to to our owner to Aaron Ziggler

and our CFO Dan Scheidt for being very, very proactive 20 years ago and thinking about recruiting,

thinking about culture. And I don't think we knew what culture was back then. And then also

training and it still is. Yeah. So you know, those three areas are areas I'm passionate about, Sam.

Okay, so you work with multiple GMs again in this culture training development world. Mike,

in March of 2026, what's the single biggest leadership mistake you see GMs make when they

think about culture and training and developing talent? Well, you know, I think the biggest

mistake is really just looking at production, but not looking at the potential of our people. And

the biggest responsibility of leaders across the group and managers would be thinking about

where getting our people from where they're at right now to where they've never been. And that's

our biggest responsibility. So seeing that potential in our team. Yeah. So there are several things

that Ziggler does different from I think a lot of other groups out there. I'd love to have you

walk us through this. The first up, and we'll actually have our production crew show us a video

from Ziggler just outside of what we call our locker room. And this is the wall that kind of

shows the history of the Ziggler Auto group. So at the point they're ready to show that they

can roll that. But we've got this history wall. And it shows everything about Ziggler's history

from its founding in 1975 all the way through to today. And then you can also see on this opposite

wall, a list of speakers at the Ziggler Auto group that come in and deliver speeches every now and

again. And then you get a tour of our Ziggler studios, which is broadcast central for this show,

as well as many others we do as well, our town hall live stream. Talk to us about the Ziggler

speaker series and why Aaron Ziggler and why you bring people in from outside of automotive to talk

about their perspectives. And who are these people and why bring people outside of work to listen

to them? What are we to learn? Well, Sam, we started this back in 2010. So it's been ongoing. And

we started very small and our listeners, this is something they could implement to enhance

their cultures across their organization. But we brought in speakers and back then we brought in

some local community coaches to motivate and inspire our teams. And now it's really grown.

And we've had some huge names like Grant Cardone, Eric Thomas, Tom Izzo, Kirk Cousins, Jesse Itzler,

Inky Johnson, we had, we had Yossi in last year, right, Sam? Yes. Yeah. So I mean, it's just been

an absolute blast. And our teams are across Ziggler Auto Group are learning about how to be

better at their roles for their team members and their customers. But they're also learning how

to be better when they go home for their families. Yeah. Yeah. Who's your favorite speaker that we

brought in for over the years? So this one right now, we're showing, I forget his name actually,

but he's a professional bodybuilder. Yeah, that's all that he's Mr. Olympia, seven time

Mr. Olympia. So Phil Heath was amazing. You know, I loved last year, we had Rhianna Gelsamino,

and she's a Subaru rally co driver with Travis Pastrana. So our automotive listeners will love

that, right? There's the OCS picture right there on the wall as well. Tom Izzo, you saw a picture

of him earlier. Mike, it is interesting when I first came to be part of the group, I sat in

this room and you would see hundreds of our Ziggler team members who were part of this hour

long speech by a business professional or a sports professional, and they're sharing how

they had success in their given endeavor. You know, we've had the pilot who then went on to

sponsor Folds of Honor, and he's talking about how success in aviation translates into success

and business. And I think it is fascinating when you're allowed to contemplate that connection

you learn from someone else in a different discipline, how they exercised discipline

to execute, and it makes us all better. Why is that Mike, do you think?

Well, you know, a common theme across the group, Sam has been a lot of these speakers have gone

through hard times, they've gone through times when they need to be resilient, right? We've had

that in the automotive industry over the years, right, where we need resiliency, but a lot of

it's about mindset and how they really look at a situation and, you know, look at it at a challenge

as an opportunity. And we've really learned that we've taught that to our, to our teams across

Ziggler, look at the challenges you face, turn them into opportunities to really grow and do

bigger things. All right, so in automotive, when we're in 30 day cycles, you win or lose on a 30

day cycle, a lot of people in automotive may not invest quite like a company like Ziggler and some

of these other large companies invest in their people. You certainly run across people that push

back on training that push back on culture and they're like, you know what, Mike, I think it's

nice that you give us these tools and you ask us to develop and grow ourselves. But it's not for

me. What what do you say to those GMs or those salespeople or those leaders that say, Hey,

I'm not going to spend time on this, I just want to go out and sell a car.

Well, I use the word investment when we think about investment, we think about money, we think

about retirement, our finances, our 401k. And the flip side of that would be, Sam, what you and I

know, right? And we train our teams, but investing in ourselves. And really, we need to invest in

ourselves and continually grow and learn and change every day for ourselves, for our families,

but also for our teams and our customers to get better. So continuous growth is huge. And if you're

not doing a ton of that in your in your stores right now, the listeners can just start small,

right? Start very small, but look at topics that are of interest as well.

All right, so there's another, there's another tradition, I think that happens along the Ziggler

Auto Group. And it's, it's called Diamond Drops. When I first heard about it, I thought, interesting,

right? You've got an example of one there. Tell us a little bit about Diamond Drops, how, where

they came from, and how they help contribute and build culture across the Auto Group.

Yeah, Sam. So that's a great, great example of recognition. And we teach our teams, we continually

teach our teams throughout the years, how to recognize and appreciate their team members.

So everybody across Ziggler has a notepad, and they're called Diamond Drops. And if I see

somebody hitting a goal or somebody hitting an accomplishment, or working with a tough customer

and doing an excellent job, I can write them a handwritten note. And a lot of times,

recognition goes a long way coming from a manager or from their leader, but it's even more powerful

if it comes from a coworker. So that would be a second piece that all our listeners could start

is teaching your teams how to write a note of appreciation and recognition to others. So pure

recognition just goes such a long way in building a world-class culture.

All right, so world-class culture, it resulted in Ziggler Auto Group getting actually top

dealer for, what was the award? It was Glassdoor's work-life balance, right?

Yeah, we got a work-life balance award, and two times in a row, we received Glassdoor,

our best places to work awards. So that was a huge honor for us, Sam, and for our teams.

So we often talk culture development on the show, but we want specific things that help build that.

So Diamond Drops is one, bringing people from inside out to help grow that culture as another.

Mike, one thing that's tough in automotive today is hiring great general managers. In fact,

some people would say it's tougher to hire a good GM than it is a service technician. What's one

leadership habit in your experience that separates elite general managers from average GMs in March

of 2026? So that's a great question, Sam. What I see is that culture piece, they build world-class

cultures, and you can feel that when you walk into a dealership. You can feel the energy or lack of

energy from the teams, and customers feel that. So it'd be building that, and then also really

investing in their people, right, and growing their teams, and challenging them, and seeing the

potential, and helping them get to that potential. All right, so you have a bunch of dealers, general

managers, and others that are watching you right now, Mike. If a dealer group wants to create a

future dealer principle or a general manager internally, what should they start doing today,

March of 2026, to develop and build that talent? Yeah, that's a great question. I think the biggest

thing would be have those conversations, right, with their team, and what are their strengths,

what are their weaknesses, how can we take some of their weaknesses and turn them into strengths,

and really invest in them, and then also show them a career path, right, to help them learn,

help them grow within your dealership, so they stay. You and your head of training and development

role, you work with Aaron, the head of the Ziggler Auto Group, on a group, it's a performance group,

it's the general manager performance group, and there's 10 to 12 folks that are in that that

are aspiring leaders that want to ascend to that GM dealer principle position. Why do that? That

session happens typically once a month, once every other month, and it's an opportunity to get folks

together to learn directly from Aaron about the way he thinks, the way he makes decisions,

the way he executes. Talk to us a little bit about that. What went into the creation of that group,

and how is it successful at creating talent top tier in March of 26?

Yeah, so that was Aaron Ziggler's brainchild. We started this thing like about 15 years ago,

and we got some leaders around the table that had aspirations to become general managers,

but they weren't to that level yet, and we really just poured into them. And Aaron actually, we do

six full day meetings a year, and we go through different departments, so they can learn to

different departments within a dealership. We'll also just teach them overall leadership traits

and skills. And then we also will read books, we'll do homework, we will bring in speakers to talk to

them on the leadership journey. And one of the things I've really found, Sam, and you've experienced

it as well, and you've been a leader in those performance groups, is Aaron will share mistakes

he's made. And he'll share some mistakes he's made and what he's learned from those. So,

you know, the vulnerability is big too. As leaders, we need to be vulnerable and show our

teams that, hey, we're human, and we do things right, and we do things wrong, and it's about

growing and learning. So a lot of great comments in the chat, Mike will bring a couple in dealer

insights says challenges are opportunities in the rough. When you push through, you grow stronger,

very well said Ziggler Auto Group, way to be an auto leader that shows up and teaches others,

how to be better in personal life and in business. And then Toyo Deal says, please check your DM,

so you'll have to check that to see what messages exist for you there. So Mike,

thinking about the next decade, do you think leadership quality or technology adoption will

determine which dealer groups and dealerships win moving into 2026 and in the next decade, Mike?

Well, as we've always talked about, Sam, technology can never replace relationships and

replace people, right? And we all need to be real authentic leaders for our teams and for our

customers to provide them the ultimate automotive experience in our stores. But we also have to

learn and grow with technology and you've actually helped me personally, Sam, and challenge me just

on tech, learning technology and so forth and growing and it's been great. And so we got to

embrace that. We got to use it to our ability, but also remember that it's all about meaningful,

authentic relationships. Yeah, it is interesting to dealers, dealer insights when we have a

challenge, we grow, right? If we if we lean into it, we push, we look to others to kind of help

us through that last question up today. We always talk about challenging leaders across

automotive. They can they can diss, you know, they can demotivate employees, they can ruin

culture. What's the real cost of a bad manager in a leadership? Mike, is it lost employees?

It lost culture? Is it lost customers? What's the real cost in 2026? Yeah, you know, we've all

probably worked with bad leaders over the year somewhere. And you can learn just as much from

a bad leader as you kind of an awesome leader. But yeah, the cost is just culture and the cost

is losing great, great talented people. So we really want to make sure that culture relationship

building is number one, because customers can feel that as well, right? And they can feel that energy

or lack of energy when they come into your store, and they can feel bad leadership, believe it or

not. Yeah, when a customer comes into your showroom or your service area. All right, what's the next

big challenge when you think about culture development training, leadership, hiring and

recruiting and automotive? What's the big thing you're working on this year to solve for Mike?

A big thing we're working on is continually growing Ziggler University for our teams across

the group, and pouring into investing in our future leaders, because we're going to keep

growing at a fast rate, Sam. And we want to have the next general managers and next leaders for

our store in every department. Yeah, absolutely. All right, Mike Van Rijn, you're going to join

us at the very end for the chat. We appreciate you being here. Mike Van Rijn, Head of Leadership

Development, Ziggler Auto Group. Thanks for joining the show, sharing your perspectives.

We'll catch you on the backside at the very end. Yeah, you know what, it's interesting leadership

and development. Talk about two completely separate topics. We go from the Volkswagen suit

and how dealers are going to win and kind of defend the franchise model. And then we go into

culture development and just talking about what it takes to create a great culture in an auto group

so that you can hire and attract the best employees. But then also, you know, the place where you

work is oftentimes the place where you spend the most amount of time. You deserve a great place

to work, an engaging place, place where you get to grow. So we appreciate Mike for sharing his

perspectives. Let's transition next to a newer leader that's working to develop and grow a team,

Terry Lang, Assistant General Manager, actually, I believe now General Manager at Suburban Ford

of Ferndale. Terry, welcome to the show. Hey, thanks for having me. All right, did I get your

title right or wrong, Terry? I'm Assistant General Manager. Okay, all right. So tell us who you are.

Tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do for those that don't know. So I've been with

Suburban Collection now for 10 years. We were acquired five years ago by Lithium Motors. We're

one of the largest public and regular groups in the country. And I've been able to develop under

some fantastic leaders like Mike Kavanaugh, our president, Jim Elder, our store general manager,

and my father. My father was a general manager at our previous store. Him and I took over a store

together three years ago. We were at separate four dealerships, more in competition with each other.

They brought us together and we turned that store into a Lithium partner group, a high-performing

store for the company, and then achieved President's Club Award through Ford Motor Company. It was

something that the store hadn't hit in a long time. So we set those goals out, achieved them at a

high level, and an opportunity came up for me to take the step into Ferndale and take a leadership

role as the Assistant General Manager and just have that presence in the store on a day-to-day

basis. So I've been blessed to take on this opportunity and I'm 30 days in. So a lot of the

stuff that we might chat about might take some time to get a good scale on what we're doing.

And the first thing first for me was just establishing a relationship and building a strong

culture here. So it's a little bit flip note of my story. Before we go into your current role,

let's talk about the... I'm fascinated by the story of you and your dad coming together to work.

So was it with Lithia or was it with Suburban or was it with another auto group that they put you

together to work together, father, son? Yeah, so it was actually under Lithia. So Lithia acquired two

dealerships locally. So they acquired Elder Ford of Romeo and Elder Ford of Troy. And the Suburban

name was so big in Metro Detroit that Lithia had a great idea of branding those stores as Suburban

stores. So instead of having three to four dealerships in the Suburban brand, now we have five.

And part of that rebranding, they'd had some leadership changes at both stores and

they brought in... They brought the idea to us and said, hey, if we brought you and your dad into a

store, made him a general manager and you work under him, what are your thoughts on that? I said,

I'd love to be a dream come true to work with my dad. Because some Sunday dinners were

sometimes uncomfortable when we were in competition with each other and we're two different

Ford dealerships in the same market and we are competition, but we love each other. So

joining forces, we were stronger together than apart. And now being a leader next to him at

Ford Store, I've learned a lot from him and the other leaders that I've worked with. So it's been

a blast. So what would you say to leaders in large organizations? Lithia's large organization,

they chose the right path, obviously. The history has shown it. What would you say to leaders in

large organizations that say you don't put a father and son together or working together? It could

create problems. And in fact, your dad, GM, you working alongside him, that was a winning solution.

Yeah, it comes down to the father-son dynamic. So I would say this, you talk to both of them,

but my father and I had a really unique relationship where one, he's my dad,

but he's also my best friend, but we are also very business minded. So both of our goals were

always aligned. We never really went against the agreement, though we challenge each other's ideas and

what the best decision was for the store. We were really good at taking the hats on and off of

father-son and that business relationship. So we could flick that switch. I mean, we could disagree

on something and agree on a lot of things. And then we'll get at home and break bread together

like we're father-son again. So just having that balance, because you are right. I mean, that's a

really big challenge of having family work together. There was never a time where it was

uncomfortable or we never went to get one of the wrong impression that they made a bad decision

about putting us together. And like I said, our goals were always aligned and we were able to

achieve a lot together. Props to Lithia for seeing that. I think in our own auto group, we believe

the same thing. Family actually is a strength and actually in the right situation with the right setup,

you can actually do a lot more together with family. So, Terry, your store is doing something

fascinating. You put F and I managers on the floor early in the deal. Why did you decide to

break the traditional sales to finance handoff? What are you trying to solve for with that?

You know, my thing is I've always hated the idea of the customer meeting the finance manager

at the end of the sale. That's one of the toughest jobs in the store as it is as a finance manager

and they have a very short window of time to establish that relationship. So, you know, sales

people are getting early turnovers to the sales managers. We can do the same exact thing with

the finance managers and establishing that relationship. So, it's time to come sign or it's

time to do an electronic signature with the customer. If there's a familiar face or someone

that we trust and there's someone that they can, you know, pick up on some of the things that

we talked about early on in the sale and relate them as they're going through their menu presentation.

So, early involvement is just as important for a sales manager as it is for a finance manager.

The store's done it before and a lot of stores do try it. It's something that has to be talked

about on a daily basis, right? Because the science managers, you know, they have a lot of things

going on. The calling and deals, getting deals bought, getting deals funded. You know, you kind

of get locked up in your office, but getting them on the floor and getting more, you know,

fluid with these customers just sets you up for success.

Yeah. So, you were trying to solve more for that relationship element,

not necessarily a profitability standpoint. What happened to PVR after you implemented that strategy?

Month over month, it stayed pretty consistent. These finance managers do perform at a pretty high

level. So, you know, we're averaging over $2,000 a copy, you know, between January and February.

How do we grow? How do we get that to the next level? How do we get to $2,100? How do we get to

$2,200? So, keep these guys involved. You know, one thing is like it does help with customer trust.

It does help with deal flow, right? So, we want to convert as many cash transactions or people

that are borrowing money from their banks into the dealership and try to retain those customers.

Organically, PVR should go up, right? The more they're early involved, we should see PVR increase.

So, this finance team that we have at this store, again, they perform at a high level. So,

how do we take the team and just get them to the next level is the challenge that we have.

Yeah, Cox Auto Inc. is called finance F&I in 2026. One of the biggest profit center opportunities

where dealers can really win. From your perspective, what's the biggest reason customers say no to most

F&I products? It comes down to menu presentation. I think if I think sometimes customers focus on

cost over value. So, the more that we build value in the products that we're offering to the customer,

you know, it just becomes more advantage for the customer to reinvest in their investment that

they're making, especially on the pre-owned side, I think. So, we have front-end margins being

compressed over these last few years. This ain't COVID anymore. That was five years ago, five,

six years ago now. So, now it's more important that we build value in the products that we're

offering and we believe in them and have these customers see the value that come out of them.

So, I think if they see value, they'll invest in their investments. The second biggest purchase

that these people are making in their lives and, you know, most people on their cell phone will

take the insurance plans with Apple or Verizon, whoever their carrier is, and that's a thousand

dollar phone. Your average cost on our used cars right now is $20,000 at the store. So,

showing them the value and protect it is key. All right. I have a couple of culture questions

for you because you talked a lot about that in your intake, but I'm going to save that for the

roundtable with Mike Van Rijn since that's his area of expertise as well at the Zach. But let's

go into the last question here. If you took over a struggling store tomorrow, what are the first

three things in this March of 26 you would change in the first 30 days in a struggling store?

The first thing that, you know, that I did when I came in here is when I met with all the store

managers, right, and met with each employee and established a relationship, right? So,

one thing is I didn't want to be the guy that came in, took an office, and just went to work. I

wanted to build that relationship and establish the culture. But I started with that. But the big

thing that I changed was curb appeal, right? So, we walked in and our front row of cars were

not facing the historic Woodward Avenue that we're located on. So, just flip that around,

make sure that all the trash is picked up. Our front-facing windows in the dealership are on

Woodward Avenue and there's a lot of glass. And this glass hasn't been cleaned in over two years.

It was almost like there was a tint on the window from just the salt and all the stuff that comes

off our Michigan roads. I once had a company come in, clean all the windows, and really just make

the place pop, make it look brand new. And then it took a look at our reconditioning process

with used cars. What's our time to market? How fast are we getting these cars priced and photoed

online? And then how quickly are we getting them through the shop? And do we have a good relationship

between the used car manager and the service department and those technicians that spent a

pain point at this store? It's something that we exceeded really well at my last venture in Troy.

So, just taking a look at some of those internal processes, how can we turn cars quicker so we

can try to get ahead in profitability with these cars? And it's the biggest thing for us. It's just

people process and getting these cars online quick. All right, we have a stat from Lott GPT and then

we're going to quickly go to this round table. The producers are going to bring it into us.

42% of your total stock is commercial vehicles. That's 4% of the market. What are you guys doing

in commercial vehicles? At this location, we don't do much commercial vehicles. Again,

so we have those five Ford dealerships that are local in this tri-county area that we're in.

Our Sterling Heights location does take on a lot of that commercial vehicle. I'm at one of the

smaller store, actually the smallest out of the five. So our front, it'd be tough to establish

commercial vehicle sales, but I tell you what, our Sterling Heights location does exceed a very

high level of that. Okay, very good. All right. They call us that at the moment, right? Terry

Lane, assistant general manager, suburban Ford of Ferndale. Thanks for joining the show. Being

here, we're going to bring Mike van Rijn back in. Then I'm going to bring you guys a comment from

Don Hall, ATAE from the Virginia Auto Dealers Association. Mike van Rijn, welcome back.

Hey, thank you, Sam. Good to be back. All right. So hey, Don Hall comes into the comments and says,

Bravo! The very items you're speaking of is what will help us win the battle against VW Scout.

Your organization is leading from the front. Consumers want an outstanding buy. And so

I think that's to both of you gentlemen in both of your organizations across Lithia,

across Ziggler, focus on people developing people and focusing on that end result. I agree with

Don Hall. Don Hall has been on the show. He's a huge advocate for the franchise model, but he's

also a huge advocate for creating a better product from automotive. And he definitely balances those

two really well. All right, we're going to go into a little bit of a roundtable into the producers.

We may go a hot minute long, but bear with us. And this is for both of you. What's one metric

in automotive? We talk about a lot that dealers obsess about that just doesn't matter that much.

What's one metric that everybody obsesses about, but isn't that important?

Go ahead, Jerry. I'm trying to think. That's a good question. A lot of stuff do matter.

I'll give you a couple examples. Unit sales every month. CSI.

Days to turn, days to front line, retention.

I'll say this. I think one metric that I would say that doesn't matter that much, but it does,

is our total market day supply and inventory. You're looking at forecasting year over year,

month over month. And if you want to grow used car sales, it's going to be based on data that

you've done in the past in terms of what's best for market day supply. But in order to sell more

used cars, you have to have more used cars. So you could throw that metric off from reporting if

you start growing used car inventory, where it's going to say, hey, you're too high in inventory,

but we're in a growth stage, so we're trying to get more inventory. You start comparing

market day supply from my smaller store in Ferndale compared to a bigger store in Romeo or

Sterling Heights. Yeah, I don't know. The inventory market day supply on used cars is in new cars

are probably the number that's talked about. Okay. All right. Next up. Next question up.

Where are dealers leaving the most money on the table right now from your experience?

I think we're leaving a lot of money on the table when it comes to advertising.

Yes. I think these third parties that we pay a ton of money to

is where we're leaving the most money on the table. When we have sales teams that have social

media presence, and that's basically free advertising, I think the more you push your sales

team into getting involved with their social media platforms, drumming up their own business

is key. I mean, it's been more expensive than ever to advertise at this third party. So I think

it's really the most money on the table. Yeah, we've put a lot of focus recently. We did something

with Russ Flipswitch this past week talking about the importance of creating video to connect with

consumers and then also get out on social media. Get the word out about yourself. Let's stop paying

for these digital lead providers that are outrageously expensive per lead. I'm going to add one thing

to that. I think bad data. I'm convinced CDP, data lakes, clean data and marketing to that clean

data helps the better return on investment. What's one belief about the car business that's

completely wrong today? What's one belief about the car business that's completely wrong today?

Mike, I bet you got one. Yeah, I'll take that one, Sam. There's so many stereotypes on the car

business, right? But you wash all those away. Take away the stereotypes and there's great,

great people in the car business, people from every diverse background. And it's amazing what

you can do if you really invest in yourself and you have a great culture and you have a great team

and a great company to work for. Yeah. And by the way, Terry, tribute to you. That's you and your dad

working together. Mike and his son work together in the same rooftop. His son's a sales manager at

Granville Chrysler. It's probably not too far away and generations working together.

It definitely overrides the stereotype and automotive. All right. There you go. There you go.

All right. Final question up on this roundtable. What will separate winning dealer groups from the

struggling dealer groups in the next five years? I'll go back to this one, Sam. And it's what I

talked about. It's the culture piece because our customers can feel it. But obviously, our team members

can feel it. Really developing people and developing cultures and the growth will come and the sales

will come. Yep, Terry. I'd echo the same thing. And for us at Lithia, we just instill our core values.

It's earned customer for life, constantly improved, take personal ownership and have fun while you're

doing it. If we embody those core values on a day-to-day basis, this company can achieve big,

big things. So it's all, like Mike said, culture, culture, culture. That's awesome. Terry,

laying Mike, Van Ryan, thank you both for being on this roundtable to close out today's spectacular

episode. Thank you for you both being there. Thanks, Sam. Thank you. All right. And to our

listening audience, thanks for watching Daily Dealer Live today, where we break down the biggest

moves in the car business as they happen. And oh, by the way, next week on Wednesday, we had a

conversation last week on the Dealer Broker distribution model. Are brokers valuable and

worthwhile in automotive? And is there a place for them in the franchise network? We heard two very

strong opinions from dealers last week. We're going to hear a broker response next Wednesday.

And coming up this Friday, if it's Friday, it's fixed ops Friday. So to everybody who's watching,

thanks for watching. Don't forget, we are here live every Monday, Wednesday, Friday,

1 p.m. Eastern. So if this is your world, hit like, hit subscribe, turn on those notifications so

you never, ever, ever miss a beat. And we'll see you next episode. Thanks for being here, everybody.

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