Bore Scoring Is A Myth? Blackstone Labs Porsche Data Revealed!

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We cover the bore score rates for not only the 996s and 997s,

but I also talked to them about the 991s.

But when you should consider doing an oil change and spoiler alert,

it doesn't have to be every year.

We talk about what breaks down with the oil and do additives really matter?

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Enjoy the episode, everyone.

Hey, Derek, glad to be here.

Nothing better than oil analysis to help answer those questions,

and I'm glad to do it.

Awesome, man.

Thank you so much.

So let's do this just because people might be coming to this

not ever having heard of Blackstone Labs before.

Can you give us a quick overview of the company, what they do,

and maybe more specifically what you do,

because I think it's going to really speak to the process of all of this

as we move forward and talk about how it pertains to the cars we own,

and then how can we get samples to you,

and what are we going to get out of the whole thing?

Yeah, so Blackstone Laboratories has been in the oil analysis game,

since 1985.

And what sets us apart is not simply the data we provide,

but the way we explain it.

Our reports are easy to understand whether you are a industry expert

or a rookie that's just trying to take care of the car they own.

The whole point is that we want you to be able to understand

the data that we pull from the sample,

and then help you out by explaining the sources of metal content,

the signs of contamination, hopefully a lack thereof.

Answering the questions, the comments, the concerns that we have from our

customers, be it in the aviation field, automotive.

If it has oil in it, then it's a system that we can analyze,

and Porsche definitely falls in that category,

and we can assist owners that are interested,

merely by sending us a sample size of three and a half ounces.

That's all it takes to learn how your engine is wearing,

and if it's wearing more than we typically see,

we'll let you know if that's due to a contaminant we can spot,

or a problem with the oil itself.

So that's fantastic to know.

It's not like I have to shoulder an old milk jug of oil

and throw it in the mail to you, so that's great.

Some people have tried.

You would be surprised at the capacity that they will intend to fill,

but rest assured, all you need is three and a half ounces.

They really, really want you to get to the bottom of their sample,

and they're going to give you a lot of it.

And we would prefer if you stick to the oil, please.

Ah, that's fair enough, and we'll leave that where it is.

People's imaginations can fill in those blanks, but...

No doubt.

You know, man, it's interesting too, and I just want to note that

when you guys do your oil inspections,

and you can put it up against the sample sets of thousands of other motors,

and so you can give a good idea maybe of how sick your motor might be

if it is sick or if it's wearing correctly.

It's not in a vacuum, I guess maybe I'll say,

and those are one of the things we're going to talk about on today's podcast

is we're going to touch on the scary subjects of Bohr score.

We're going to talk about IMS issues with the motors,

and how can we tell...

Are you at the beginning of a potential rebuild down the line?

What does that look like?

And you can speak from authority because you can simply look those motors up,

right, in terms of your database, and we can talk about those real numbers.

Yeah, so it's really a credit to the Porsche ownership community

that they help keep our average file strong.

We're not comparing to a handful of samples,

we're comparing to samples in the thousands.

And a lot of the motors that we're going to talk about today,

you know, whether it be the M96, M97, so on and so forth,

these are motors that have dedicated communities with ownership interest in

not just owning the car, but taking care of it and keeping it on the road for a good long while,

whether that be someone who is priding themselves on track use,

who may want to mix in a track day here or there,

or they could just be trying to find the ideal oil change interval,

the million dollar question for really any engine out there.

But whatever the case may be, we're going to assist you by starting with a comparison

to our averages, which are built on samples from that model that you have.

So if it's an air cooled iteration, we're going to have averages for that.

If it's a water cooled 3.6 liter flat six,

and then going forward, we can even have averages specific to the DFI iteration of that motor

because it helps us help you.

So let's, you know, let's do this, let's jump right into it.

Let's talk about what's near and dear to our hearts in the Porsche world.

So we're, you know, Joe, we're a funny bunch.

You had complimented Porsche owners for being fastidious and they want to take care of their cars.

And I think that that's absolutely true.

I also think that because these cars cost a fair amount of money and we fall in love with them,

that we are very, just like our children sometimes, we're very worried when they get sick.

And we want to just try to make sure that we catch it early rather than let something

linger and potentially metastasize.

So, you know, the oil analysis is something that was never really on my radar when I was kind

of a younger owner of these cars.

You know, I figured, as long as I change my oil every 5,000 miles, I'm going to be golden.

And I never really thought much past that because I thought just kind of like eating healthy.

The best defense against anything bad that could happen is just fresh oil in your motor.

Let's talk about three different generations of motors because for those of you out there

that might not be super familiar with some of the common, I guess, watchouts or issues with

water cooled motors.

And so these motors are from the 997 generation.

There was a DOT 1 and a DOT 2.

So the DOT 1, 05 to 09 and then the DOT 2, 09 to 12.

And then there's another generation after that called the 991 generation.

And those are another set of motors that will take us to 2016.

So for the audience out there, you know, there's a couple issues with these motors on the earlier

motors, the 996 and the 997 motors, there's a worry about the IMS bearing, which could

potentially fail.

And there's also a worry about bore scoring.

And this is something that I know I fret about and I fretted about because I got a bore scope

check on my motor and essentially I wanted to find out if the cylinders had gouges in them because

of a lack of lubrication.

And what happens over time is essentially your motor kind of falls apart, it loses compression

and you have to rebuild it.

And so that's like a huge fear because I guess you might say that Porsche with every generation

might have an Achilles heel and bore scoring and IMS on the earlier 911s for the water cooled.

That's kind of their Achilles heel.

And I asked you in preparation for this podcast to take a look in your giant repository of engines

and motors to give us a sense of am I out of my mind if I lose sleep at night when it comes to

bore scoring?

And so let's talk about the motors base and ass 3.6 liter and 3.8 liter kind of cover that 996,

997.1 generation where I mean that's where a lot of people are most afraid about the IMS

bearings and most afraid about bore scoring.

And could you share some of the numbers that you found looking at those?

I mean, is it 25% of cars, 50% of cars like the internet would have you believe that it's just

waiting in your garage to grenade?

Well, it's safe to say that bore scoring in particular will start there.

That is a common concern, but the numbers show it's not a common problem.

And in order to assess that, what we're going to do is look at three elements in particular.

Porsche is unique in that we can see signs of bore scoring in the form of high aluminum,

high iron, and high silicon.

So when we see these three elements testing high together in these motors,

those are hallmarks of bore scoring being a problem in the way an oil analysis can see it.

So we're going to look for these elements and compare them to averages.

And we're not seeing it at a terribly high rate, which isn't to say that unfortunately,

your motor can't be affected.

But I would think it goes a long way in helping assuage concern that every engine is destined

to run into this because at least from the samples that we're seeing,

it's really not as common a problem.

In fact, if we just start with the 3.6 layer flat six,

we have thousands of samples to look back on.

This is one of the larger average files that we have and that we continue to build on a daily

basis because so many Porsche owners are dedicated to oil analysis.

And when you look at these percentages of samples that have that trio,

high aluminum, high iron, high silicon, in the 3.6, we're seeing that at 2.22 percent

of the 3.6 flat six samples.

So just over 2 percent of what this kind of reminds me of IMS,

where everyone swears an IMS is going to grenade and the numbers are like under 5 percent.

So you're saying for the 3.6 motor, you only see boar scoring evidence in a little over 2 percent?

The surefire signs because you can have one of these elements a little out of whack,

but it takes that trio to really assume a problem of that nature.

And we're only seeing it pop up at that rate.

So that's really even lower than I would have.

If you had asked me this before I went digging into the numbers,

I might have settled around five or maybe eight if I was really feeling generous,

but 2.22 percent, I think that probably even beats most expectation even on the

oil analysis side. I wouldn't have assumed it was even that low, but sure enough,

for the 3.6 looking pretty good.

Dude, that's awesome. That's amazing. I would have guaranteed you it was 8 percent or 10 percent

because it gets such a bad rap on forums.

And people are always talking about how this is an eventuality, it will happen,

it just hasn't happened yet. And that makes me sleep.

All right, so let's do this. Let's do a small caveat though, right?

And I do think that this is important to mention.

Porsche owners can be fastidious, there's no doubt, but not all Porsche owners are sending

their samples into you. And so my thought process probably is that the Porsche owners that are

sending their samples into you are the ones that understand proper warm-up techniques and

probably are a little bit more in tune with the health and the lifeblood of their motors.

And so I mean, would you agree that there's a chance that that 2.2 might be a little skewed

based on the sample set of like, you probably have the best of the best owners that really

care about their motors? It's fair to take that into consideration,

I think it has to be said. But I would also add that we're seeing a really wide range of ownership

in the sense that we're seeing people who are interested in track use populate that

average file, people who are not, people who are strictly using their car in the gentlest manner,

taking it to a show or two, you know, every year or so, and people who are doing a mix.

We have people who are sending in pre-buy samples where they can't speak to how the motor is taking

care of. They can only tell us how they would take care of it. We are seeing the pre-buy,

we're seeing the sample that's their first since acquiring the motor. So I think that while I give

a lot of credit to the owners that keep our lights on, I also would say that we are getting as

generous and as illustrative a spread as one could really ask for.

What a great point, because you're right, you're getting samples, people are doing

pre-purchase inspections, they're sending their oil into you, is this motor going to go or not?

And you're right, who knows what kind of life that motor led. And so that probably does make

me a little bit more comfortable that it's not a skewed kind of sample size. 2.2%, Joe, I mean.

The numbers are good even moving forward from that. I mean, if we just shift gears to the 3.8,

a little bit higher at 3.63%, but even so, 3.63, I would have a hard time believing that people

would expect it to be that low either in this building or outside of it. 3.63, looking pretty

good. And again, that's for the 3.8 plastics. It's this other kind of old maids tale that

the most of the bore scoring happens with the S motors, the large displacement motors, because

I've heard everything from thinner cylinder walls, and so it doesn't modally heat as much. And because

of that, it tends to bore score more. And I think that that tells everything it needs to tell is

that it's like 3.5%. I mean, it's under 4% for the S motors within a variance of a percent and a

half of the base motors. And so where I always thought, get the base motor, be safe, be safe,

get the base motor. Maybe that's not it, which is really incredible if you think about it.

Yeah, it just goes to show you can go big and still expect a healthy engine based on these

percentages. And really, Porsche in general, it's kind of a treat to look at a lot of their samples,

especially wearing samples can even look pretty clean right out of the factory. And down the road,

it's not necessarily going to make a lot of metal as it ages either. Once you have that maintenance

plan dialed in, and you have stable trends emerge, you know, I'm not really going to expect a big

change in the wear profile just based on odometer mileage either.

So you're talking about when you're talking about engines that are just broken in, people put that

500, 800, 900 mile break in period, and then they send their oil to you. So you get them from the

birth of the motor, and then you kind of follow it down the journey of however many miles people

put on that same motor. Ideally, I mean, I say ideally because while lemons are rare to find,

they do exist. And they do exist, whether it's an older model, or a newer one that is a recent

release. You know, we will see because as you know, recalls are still a fact of life. And we're

going to see some motors that simply never get off on the right foot. And for that reason, when

you start with a factory fill and you go from there, we can see, okay, this engine either is

showing the progress one should make as break in and sealer wash out, or it's clearly not. And if

it's not moving in the right direction, if we see metals that are not improving or getting worse,

unfortunately, that can speak to an engine that has not settled in well, the break in process

has not been smooth. Maybe there is, you know, sealer that's been clogging oil passages that

hasn't left the system. So it's nice to have that starting point, because we can track how

things have been evolving, or unfortunately, not evolving for some motors, and tell people if it

does appear typical. So you said something really interesting there that I just want to touch on.

And this will be a question I'll ask you in a minute. But you said getting worse or not improving.

And do you see once you get those that that that trio you described of oh, we might have a problem

here. Do you do you see it where it can hang on and just maintain or even a sample down the line,

maybe even be a little bit better? Yeah, I can't tell you how many instances I've seen of motors

that have been able to improve on one less than ideal report. You know, I think oftentimes when

there's been abrupt changes in operation, someone has modified power, they have done a significant

increase in track time. And it's led to some increases that we certainly want to keep an eye on.

But it's kind of like getting your blood pressure checked where you can have a less than ideal read

out. Now, does that mean you have heart disease? Well, fact of the matter is you need to see how

things are trending sometimes. And engines can improve on levels that are less than ideal levels

that have increased just situationally. But the trend will tell the tale of whether or not that

was a blip on the radar whether or not you had high blood pressure because you went to the smoke

house a few too many times in the past month and two may 12 ounce curls. And then things can improve.

So it is a situation where analysis will guide you through and tell you the story. Because when

the oil is doing its job of cleaning and lubricating, it's picking up that metal, it's picking up.

And while telling you how it's holding up based on its physical properties.

That's super interesting. Because you know, I kind of think like you take a snapshot of your oil,

you know, and you send it to you and I get it back and it's like a really bad report. And I'm

like, oh my God, this is the end of my motor. Like this is it. So I guess it's a really good point

to be like, well, yeah, but did you just do a track day? You know, are there any additives you can

put in your oil to try to help maintain? It's the engine's current state. You know, these are

things we can talk about briefly, but it does make sense that unless it's like catastrophic and

unless you like literally on the report right in a pen, Derek, don't drive this car, then it probably

has to be like, okay, we'll drive it for another couple thousand miles, send me another sample,

and then we'll see how they match up. So at least you have two data points, not one.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, unfortunately, there can be one offs, there can be situations where sitting in

the analyst's chair, you've looked at enough samples, you've seen enough patterns where I have

told a customer a time or two that if this motor hasn't failed yet, it probably will soon, because

sometimes there's just no good explanation for levels that can show up in used oil. But when

you're in that gray area and we advise checking back, it means that we can allow some leeway. These

are changes that are not unheard of or they can be associated with operational factors,

and that's really the benefit of having an analyst that is not running the numbers through,

you know, like an AI program, but is actually referencing the same model, experiencing similar

conditions, and dialing in those comparisons as neatly as we can.

I don't know what you're talking about, Joe. When I get your samples back, I put them on ChatGPT,

and it tells me the real truth. You don't know what you're talking about.

The whole truth and, well, yeah, nothing but the truth in the case of ChatGPT.

Yeah, nothing but the truth is correct. Before we move on to talking about

oil just and maybe things we can do to try to improve results, can we talk about a couple

more motors? So we talked about the normally aspirated motors. So these are the, like in my

997.1 that I have out in my garage that I was fearful of and I got a boar scope done.

In 2009, Porsche came out with a direct fuel injected motor, and it would completely change

the architecture and took away the IMS bearing issue, which was kind of an issue on the earlier

motors. And people generally said, like, oh, well, now this is the next generation of Porsche

motor. There's no issues. And then years go by, and Pete, there's these whisperings in the corners

of the internet, Joe, that, uh-oh, the direct fuel injected motors have boar scoring too.

I asked you to look into those motors as well. Can you hit me with some numbers?

Yeah. So the extreme skeptics will be satisfied in knowing that boar scoring technically still

exists, at least in terms of the signs we can see. But the percentage is, well, they may disappoint

them a little bit. Because when you look at starting with the 3.6 DFI, we're seeing that

trio test high in 1.31% of samples. You move to the 38, you would think it's a typo because it's

virtually the same 1.35 on the 38. Let's just talk about the fact that on these DFI motors,

which everyone talks about, well, these are just almost as bad as the generation before.

Be very careful. Get boar scopes. It's a super issue. You're telling me that it's like a rounding

error in terms of the amount of boar scoring you're seeing in these motors at under 1.5%.

The samples we're seeing, they look even better on average.

These are like thousands of cars? I mean, thousands.

Yeah. So we're in excess of the thousands on the 3.8. So the DFI iterations, I have

the strongest average file for the 3.8 DFI. And that's the one with 1.35%.

And we're still into the thousands on the 3.4 that we'll talk about next.

So let's roll into the 991. So Porsche comes out with the next generation, 2012 to 2016.

New body style, an iteration on the motor before it's still direct fuel injected.

And I have a Boxster in my garage that has a DFI motor in it. We're talking about the 9.11 motors

specifically, but certainly carry over. And people are saying boar scoring is affecting these

too. So what did you find, Joe? The 3.4, we're looking at 0.75% of samples.

Come on. 0.75? 0.75 of that trio showing up. And again, we're not talking about

10, 20 samples. It's thousands. So I mean, hard to take a lot of, I don't know, it's hard to

drum up the concern there. But the thing is, people aren't wrong to want to look into this.

They're not wrong to want to make sure that their motor isn't the one. But they don't need to assume

that they bought a lemon just because people are still whispering about this issue.

It hasn't gone, but certainly not more prevalent than we've seen in earlier generations.

Well, there are people on the internet, of course, that rely on fireworks. And they

certainly try to say that the 991 generation of motors, that 3.4, 3.8 liter,

they are just as bad as the earlier motors in terms of bore scoring. And you're telling me that

it's under 1%, it's three quarters of a percent. 0.75 on the 3.4, which is, again,

if I said the first numbers was a surprise, this is even more so. And it just goes to show at the

end of the day, hot takes, they serve to keep the content fire warm, but they aren't necessarily

based in the analysis that you can gain from your oil change.

I'm falling out of my seat because I guarantee you that if I were to walk down the street and point

to any car, Honda, a Toyota, you name it, most likely they probably have some level of bore

scoring that's maybe higher than 0.75%, especially here in New Hampshire. I would imagine that

this puts a 911 in line with any other manufacturer of reliable motors where this shouldn't happen.

I wouldn't be shy about having one in the garage. I'll just say that.

Yeah, man. I love that. We're going to get one for you. What about the 3.8 liter motor in the 991s?

Yeah, so the 3.8, we're only looking at a rate of 1.35%.

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So it's minuscule. All right, so worst case scenario.

So everyone has to take from this that, yes, bore scoring is an issue that has been documented.

Talking to you, Joe, I have extreme comfort in that I can say that it's overblown.

If you're going to be spending multiple tens of thousands of dollars on a car

for the sake of 500 bucks to have a bore scope done, you could call it cheap insurance just to

make sure that you are on the better side of not. I do have a lot of mechanic friends, Joe,

that say, yeah, I see them. We get them in and we see them a fair amount.

But I wonder too, it's kind of like selection bias. If cars are having an issue and they go to

the mechanic, then mechanics are going to see cars with issues, right? So unless it's someone that

only does pre-purchase inspections where hopefully they have like a general population of cars that

they can say yes and no, mechanics that often tell me like, oh, I would never buy this car,

everyone's a problem. Sometimes I say, well, everyone you see is a problem because you're the

guy that people go to with the problem. Now, I'm not saying that's the case for bore score,

but I'm saying that you told me that's the case for bore score because these numbers are ridiculous

and below my mind 0.75%, 1% for the 991 generation of owners.

So let me ask you this. We talked about you are starting to see the angry trio,

the ticking time bomb potentially. And you use the term of high blood pressure,

you use kind of that analogy, which I absolutely love. Like let's say you have high cholesterol,

right? You have a couple of symptoms. Do you have lifestyle modification like as in

you shouldn't take your car to the track as much or take extra precautions? I want to talk more

about the medication route that someone with high cholesterol might have. And by that I mean,

what can you do to the oil you put in your car to try to maintain or perhaps improve

the degradation of your engine if you are starting to show these signs? Do you have any

suggestions when it comes to that? So the nice thing about API certified products,

that meet the owner's manual specs, the brand or blend doesn't really matter. Now that isn't to

say that there aren't differences in the various brands or blends that you can buy. They certainly

all have their own stick. They all have their own recipe that promises to be better than the rest.

But we don't see a noticeable difference just depending on the oil you run. And that is a good

thing in the sense that if you're buying an API certified product with the correct viscosity,

you can bank on it providing the necessary wear protection. When you have a problem,

no oil in the world is going to make it go away. So people can obsess over the wrong thing, which

is buying the perfect oil for that engine. Which if there was a perfect oil with all the competition

in the industry, you can bet that the oil companies would know about it. You can bet that there would

be a known quantity in that area. So when you talk about lifestyle changes, equating that to

vehicle ownership, just focus on buying an oil that fits the manual and fits your wallet.

Start there. As far as additives that go beyond what's in the oil, it's kind of redundant. And

just kind of stick with the analogy we have building so far. How many supplements do you

market that are promised to lengthen your lifespan to make this or that issue go away when

reality eat a healthy diet? And if you want to take a supplement on top of it, okay, but at some

point, there's more present than what your body can know to do with. And it's similar when it comes

to additive packages, where people may obsess with adding more molybdenum or more phosphorus and zinc.

And I just think there comes a stopping point where the motor can't really make use of all the

exorbitant amounts of additive that people want to pack in there. It's like, okay, you can take

30 vitamin C pills, but that doesn't mean that your body can use all of that. And similar with

additive packages, I think people wanting to supplement with more of this or that element,

whatever the case may be, if it's an API certified product, it has enough added in it to cover the

basis. So in essence, what you're saying is it's the Porsche comparison of peeing out fluorescent

pee because you've taken too many supplements that your body can't absorb. I mean, essentially,

you're putting additives in oil that perhaps only to a threshold can your motor really enjoy the

benefits of. Yeah, I think there just comes a point where you need to move away from what you're

using and look at how you're using the motor you're putting it in. Are you paying attention to the

system? Expound on that a little bit. What do you mean? Yeah, so I think that when we see differences

in the wear profile, often that's more so related to operational factors, whether or not people are

going to the track that can influence a wear profile. But we can also see some motors are fit

for it. It's never a one size fits all. And that's why you need to go the analysis to see

how the engine is responding to it. The oil is the key to learning what's going on in your engine,

but the oil doesn't necessarily dictate what's going on in the engine. It's your key to finding

out what's going on without having to open it up. Like recently, I looked at a few different 3.8

flat six DFI's. Now, these were from two different owners, but three samples in total.

One sample, the owner put roughly 3,500 miles on the oil, they mixed in some track time,

and the sample looked good. We didn't see levels that were remotely high compared to averages.

Then they ran the oil longer, they went about 55 mile 5,500 miles, they added in more track time.

The levels did not look so good. We saw increases that could show excess wear in the bores.

Now, one might look at that and say, oh, well, if I have a 3.8, I just don't need to go 5,500

miles and I'll be fine. But then I looked at another owner's sample with virtually the same

mileage they noted track time on their oil information slip and their sample looked very good.

It looked as good as that other customer's initial sample that had fewer miles on it.

So it's never one size fits all. Every motor has its own story. And I think that different owners

are going to, I mean, Porsche owners are very proud of their individuality. And I think that you can

bank on one owner treating their car, not poorly, but they can be more demanding of it than the

next guy. Or maybe they are just simply their day to day operation doesn't compare. And I think

that's where we can see those changes shine through because in none of the cases I've mentioned,

are they running like some bizarre food grade oil concoction or some brew of five different

brands or blends? No, they went and bought a brand or blend that we all know by name.

You know, and then it was probably the same 040 with the same added package. And

that's all well and good. It's about what the oil has in it that will tell you if you're doing

the right things, whether that be the right oil change interval, the, you know, the right amount

track days mixed in, or if you are having contamination that you didn't know about that

is causing the engine to wear more than it should. That's really the silent killer, whether you're

Porsche or anyone else having contaminants that are in the system, in those microscopic levels

that you wouldn't know about, but the oil does. So that's really what can affect the wear profile

in the long term. What strikes me and what I get frustrated about is I want to have a silver bullet.

Like you just said to me, 3,500 miles looks great, 5,500 miles both with track time,

it didn't look great. And so like you just said, my mind goes, okay, if someone asked me,

how long should I change my oil? If I track my car sometimes, I want to have an answer.

But I think the answer is there is no answer because every motor is very different. I mean,

if you have that example of two very different owners with two very different results with the

same use case, it's like, well, maybe one engine just is wearing better than another. And that's

just the way of things. And you just unfortunately have to, unfortunately, you fortunately,

unfortunately, fortunately have to send your oil in to Joe to tell you how your motor is doing.

It's kind of like just to beat this analogy to death about the health of a body. It is just

like being genetically predisposed to heart disease versus someone who's not. You can be as

healthy in lifestyle as you want, but sometimes you just genetically, that's how you're built.

And that's how the motors built. And maybe that's like a really good

way to look at it that the only way to figure it out is to get your blood taken

and get those results. And that's your oil sample. Do you see, I know you talked about

kind of the API standards, do you see any additives in oil that ever help?

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insurance plan. We don't see a significant improvement in where as a result of using this

additive or that additive. But I always I hesitate a little bit when people will go to the extreme

and say, okay, so they're all useless because in truth, I think some of them have practical

purposes that do pan out. We see a lot of, you know, instances of viscosity improvers or oil

savers where if you have a consumption issue, if you have a leak that you need to slow down,

those can have the real world impact of assisting in that area. But it's again, it's

whether it's an additive or an oil off the shelf. That's not what's saving your motor from

destruction. The oil, however, is going to assist you in knowing what's going on. So

take it to the bottom of it. So so pivoting. I live in New Hampshire. It's Joe. It's cold

all the time in New Hampshire lately. This has been a long winter. And we put our cars up

on the left or in the garage under a cover to take a nap for a couple months at a time.

I get a lot of questions. When I put my car away, do I do I put it away with dirty oil?

Like let's say that I did 2000 miles in my 9-11 or 2500 miles in my 9-11. Do I put it away with

dirty oil potentially with maybe moisture in the oil? Do I just put it away and change it in the

spring when I'm going to be driving it? Or before I put it away, do I drive it really hard and try

to burn off all the moisture in the oil to try to put it away so it's as clean as it can be even

though it's dirty? Or do I put it away and change the oil before I put it away so it's got clean

oil in the motor? So in the spring when it wakes up, I can drive it immediately and not worry about

it. So on its face, you know, a 2000 mile interval, 2500 miles, whatever the case may be,

that's not necessarily too much before you put the car into storage and then take it out for

the next season. But like I mentioned earlier, you want to know how that oil looks in testing

regardless of who you are, what car you have, because how that oil looks in testing could

dictate whether or not that oil change interval needs to be shorter, but it's never the calendar

time that you have to take into consideration. It's always the miles because when you talk about

moisture, that can be a common concern out there, but it's another one of those things that's not

a common problem because you're only going to have moisture build up in a modern engine

if it has a coolant leak. You're not going to have just moisture from the atmosphere

accumulating. Yeah, that was a problem for engines with open breathers, not a problem for today's

designs. So you can cross off your list of concerns and just rest on the mileage because if you put

that motor into storage and it's had that oil in there for 2000 miles, well, if that oil change

interval is known to you and doesn't involve a lot of metal content having built up, you know,

you have a sample history where you know, hey, I know that 2000 miles for me doesn't involve

a lot of metal for this engine. And I know from analysis that contamination isn't a concern for

me. I know that my air and oil filtration systems have been up to par during an interval of this

length, you know, based on the solids that are present, based on evidence of dirt contamination,

both of which we're going to see, then you can have confidence and say, putting that vehicle

in the storage with two or three or 4,000 miles, depending on what you've got, and then taking

it out and then accumulating the amount of mileage that you want. And with every sample,

you can have confidence in either the interval you're running being a good one. You can note

that you have interest in extending that interval will tell you if that's okay.

And of course, we'll let you know if a shorter interval would be ideal.

But whatever the case may be, bring it back to the miles, don't obsess over the calendar time.

So why does Porsche say that it's like, you know, you have to replace the oil every 10,000 miles

or every one year. And that's kind of the recommendation.

Well, I think whether it's manufacturer of the engine or an oil company, they have to draw a

line somewhere with regards to calendar time. And I think 12 months becomes an industry standard

that's repeated over and over, no matter who it is, whether it's Porsche, you know, I've had GM

tell me that I've had Honda tell me that. And so I think that whatever the case may be,

miles are where we see that metal accumulated. That's where we see the oil actually breaking

down from its job of cleaning and lubricating. The add to package doesn't go away. That's for

just based on how long it's been sitting. Yeah, I've seen samples that have been in vehicles

where the owner reported it being installed seven years ago, 10 years ago. And it didn't

necessarily look bad in terms of the physical properties, the viscosity would be in range,

the TBN that we test would show active add have left. Now, those samples may not have had a ton

of mileage, but that's the point. The miles are when the oil is actually doing its job. And that's

when it loses its effectiveness over the course of its lifespan, not based on days or months or

years. So that's interesting. And I think about my motorcycles. I have a couple old motorcycles

that I just never have the chance to really ride. And so if I put 150 miles on one in a season,

that's like a good year. And I really get after myself because I'm like, I should be changing

the oil, if not every year than every other year, every 300 miles, because it's been two years.

What you're telling me is, if I change my oil and I use a good oil filter, I use API

okayed oil, that bike can sit or that Porsche can sit in my garage for three seasons, four seasons.

And if I only accumulate X number of miles that I know are safe, according to having

the inspection done by you guys, it's not going to be like the oil isn't doing its job

when I use it in that fourth season. It doesn't have anything to do with time.

No, I wouldn't say it's terribly unusual for us to see clients send in samples where they have

accumulated a season or two, because that's how long they need to rack up a decent amount of hours

or miles, whatever the case may be. So if you are in a position where you simply

don't want to trust the calendar time theory, then you can always take a sample without changing

the oil, send it off, and we can tell you, hey, all good here. Or you can proceed with just changing

the oil and then waiting to hear back that way. But people don't even have to do a full oil change

if they want to take a sample with a vacuum pump from the dipstick and don't change it.

Sometimes that's a really smart choice depending on how expensive their oil change is, because

oil changes can be pretty crazy depending on the sump capacity that you're rolling with. So

a $40 sample can tell you, hey, we knew calendar time wasn't a concern, but if this gives you

some peace of mind, rest assured, based on XYZ factors, you're in good shape.

So that's something I could just like go on Amazon and get an oil extractor that just has

kind of a long tube. You put it down your dipstick and extract oil.

So actually, we sell one on our website as well if you would rather not go that route,

but you can order one from Amazon. You can go to the hardware store. You can order one from us.

Wherever you find it, all you need is a hand pump and some refrigerator tubing,

and then that will go down the dipstick tube. You pull up a sample and then again,

three and a half ounces is nowhere near a significant amount relative to most sump capacities.

Yeah, especially Porsche. We have lots of oil in our motors. Of course, the smart people out

there are like, well, Derek, Porsche did away with dipsticks quite some time ago. And so would

you feel comfortable just opening up the oil cap and taking a sample from there?

It can be a messy extraction process, but if you don't mind it, that oil counts just as much.

So it's not like it has to be like from the bottom of the sump or any

the idea would be that you run the car, let it cool down, and then that oil is mixed enough

that whatever sample you take from wherever it is should give a representative sample.

Yeah. So oil does a good job of holding everything in a pretty even suspension,

because we're looking at microscopic metals that are far too small to see with the naked eye.

That stuff is held in a nice even suspension. The visible stuff can settle,

but generally when we're looking at elements in part per million, that's a pretty even spread.

So you don't have to obsess over the exact location of where that oil is from,

whether it's say towards the end of the drain or the start of the drain.

The only real concerns, and I say real, but real world concerns, I guess I should say,

if you sample right at the start of a drain, sometimes you can get some excess dirt or debris

from around the drain plug area. But I mean, in terms of metal content that's going to speak

to how that engine is wearing, you should get a pretty good look. I think in most cases,

if you're in an ideal situation during an oil change, just waiting for a midstream sample that

is not so far towards the end, you miss the drain and not right at the beginning where you can get

some debris. Yeah, that's, I guess I should say, the picture perfect sample. But when you're just

trying to grab one in a pinch and you need to see how that oil looks, it's okay if it's towards the

beginning. I used to have a guy that I knew that religiously would, when he changed his oil, he

pull off his oil filter, cut it open, he'd inspect all the pleats, pleat by pleat, to see if there's

any, anything shiny, anything sparkly in there. And I know that you folks look at filters from time to

time. Is there any benefit of doing that, sending you an oil filter and oil or instead of oil? Or

can you tell everything you need to know from the oil and you don't need the filter? Where does

that line stand? So we do test filters, I'd say it's more predominant for the aircraft crowd,

because there are very specific service bulletins that relate to certain sizes and amounts that can

really be of use for people in the aircraft world that have to take the utmost caution. Now,

whether it's aircraft or gas diesel, whatever the engine is that has a filter in place, we can of

course check it for visible metal and identify the metallurgy, whether it is brass bronze,

it steels, you know, obviously easy to catch with a magnet, you know, looking at aluminum,

identifying these, giving you sizes and amounts. And of course, that is valuable in the sense that

visible metal can be further evidence of a problem. But that's really something that,

you know, like you mentioned, you can do on your own far cheaper. We're of the mind of,

course, we can do it for you. But it is such an expensive time consuming process that we don't

really beat down anyone's door for a filter sample, because we're so packed to the brim with oil that

we have so much to go around. But we can look at it. I think in some cases, when people are

building as convincing a case that they have a problem that can give them even more to go on.

But I think it's something that in general, you can rest on an oil sample telling you

the essentials. If you're driving a car, that's really going to be your go to for most everything.

Filter is a little bit extra in my mind. I have to imagine that if you get to the point where

you're finding chunks of anything in your filter, the oil would have told you long before that you

have an issue. Yeah. So generally, big problems start with microscopic signs. And that's where

the oil sample comes in handy. So yeah, you're correct in that typically, if it's making big

pieces of metal, the smaller pieces have been there for a while. Now some sudden problems exist.

That is an important caveat I will extend in that you can have sudden problems that come up.

Some people will, I'd say it's pretty common really for us to see samples where they just left

an oil chain shop or a dealership. And they had the horror story of a bolt being loose and losing

all the oil and they're going down the highway and they suddenly have the motor seize up.

So sudden problems happen where there hasn't been time for that microscopic stuff to build up.

Yeah. But not so common, I would say.

Yeah. I would imagine though if you have a hole in the side of the block of your motor because

it ran out of oil because it all came out the bottom, no one's going to be sending a filter

into you saying what's the problem. But your point is very well made, Joe. And I,

dude, I just want to thank you so much. I've kept you on for an hour and I feel like this has been

such an amazing conversation because it's put me at ease and I hope it puts my audience at ease

in that just like anything on the internet, the forums and the chatting of how bad things are,

when you really look into the science of it and you really get into sample sets and you look at

the black and white picture, these cars are very reliable. And while it's always really important

to do your due diligence and when you're purchasing a car or running a car to keep a constant eye on

things just like anything else in life, I don't have to get in my 997 this evening and worry

that I'm going to have a catastrophic issue because these are really reliable motors and

these numbers you shared with me were absolutely incredible. And I just really, really want to

thank you, Joe. I'm going to have you on the podcast as we go along for sure because you're

my oil guy, but this was awesome. And I hope anyone that has questions about the health of their

motor, whether they're looking to buy a car or they're owning a car and they want to see how

their car has been wearing, take Joe up on his offer and go on their website, grab a package,

ship in those three and a half ounces, and get that email. And at least then you have a data

point, right? You have a baseline of where your health of your car is and then from there, you

know, you can decide how you want to manage the maintenance from there, therefore, right?

Mm-hmm. Yeah, we're here to help you. And for that reason, if you're interested in

oil analysis and you want to know if your vehicle has, you know, signs of bore scoring,

signs of this, that or the other, you know, just let us know. We have an oil information slip where

you can voice that concern. And we want to hear from you as well. Let us know if you're seeing

signs of trouble on your end, like if you're wary of bore scoring, are you noticing

increasing oil consumption that can speak to that problem on your end? And then we'll attack

the metals. We'll let you know what we're seeing on our end. I think working together with people,

that's really where we're able to build the connections and helping them take care of what

they own. Joe Adams of Blackstone Labs, thank you so much for the time, my friend. I can't

wait to have you on again. Thank you. All right, my friend.

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Bore Scoring Is A Myth? Blackstone Labs Porsche Data Revealed!

About this episode

Progressive

oil change

oil additives

oil analysis

Blackstone Laboratories

metal content

Porsche

oil sample

sample sets of thousands of other motors

water cooled motors

bore scoring

high aluminum, high iron, and high silicon

averages

proper warm-up techniques

trending

oil cleaning and lubricating

Blackstone Labs

bore scopes

operational factors

one size fits all

viscosity improvers

leak

calendar time vs mileage

microscopic metals

midstream sample

pleats

oil filter

metallurgy

microscopic signs

ran out of oil

wear metals

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