Leadership and mentorship are at the center of Beyond the Wrench’s conversation on building technicians “from the ground up.” Todd Ainsworth and the guest trace a path from early shop exposure and a four-year apprenticeship to 25 years as a professional tech and eventually shop ownership. The hosts connect technician development to profitability, training structure, and shop culture—arguing that modern work is highly technical, safety-critical, and requires proper documentation and inspections.
Todd Ainsworth, Shop Owner at Swedish Automotive, Inc. and President-Elect of the Northwest Auto Care Alliance (NWACA), joins us to talk about developing the next generation of technicians and why most shops are leaving that opportunity on the table. During the episode, Todd covers his journey from technician to shop owner, gives a closer look at NWACA's apprenticeship program and what makes it work, and why it's easier to grow a technician from scratch than to fix someone else's bad habits.
ASE Connects brings shops, dealerships, and schools together in one structured network to strengthen the technician pipeline. By making it easier to connect, collaborate, and support students through job shadows, internships, and classroom engagement, ASE Connects helps schools build stronger programs and helps shops develop a more consistent, local source of future technicians. Learn more:
ASE is a well-known automotive certification program. It’s a way to show a mechanic has proven knowledge on certain types of car repairs.
ASE stands for the National Institute for Automotive Service Excellence, which offers certification programs for mechanics and related automotive roles. In the industry, ASE credentials are often used as a signal that someone has passed standardized tests for specific repair skills.
"and when you were coming in fuel injection was all the rage, right? And you're you're trying you're kind of transitioning from carburetor to fuel injection."
Fuel injection is how a car sends gas into the engine. Instead of using a carburetor, it uses computer-controlled parts to deliver the right amount of fuel.
Fuel injection is a modern way of delivering gasoline to an engine using electronically controlled injectors instead of a carburetor. It’s tightly managed by engine computers, which is why technicians need more electronics and diagnostics knowledge as cars evolve.
"And you're you're trying you're kind of transitioning from carburetor to fuel injection. And now, I mean, we're driving advanced computers like"
A carburetor is an older system that mixes gas and air for the engine. Many cars moved away from it because newer systems are controlled by computers.
A carburetor is an older fuel-delivery device that mixes air and fuel before it enters the engine. The shift from carburetors to fuel injection is a big reason modern repair work often involves computer diagnostics rather than purely mechanical adjustments.
Term
advanced computers
"And now, I mean, we're driving advanced computers like there's so much that has changed in that period of time."
In modern vehicles, “advanced computers” refers to the engine control units and other electronic modules that manage engine operation. As cars become more software-driven, technicians increasingly need scan tools and diagnostic skills to interpret sensor data and control strategies.
"It's not, we're, we're, we're looking at can bus network problems and very technical things."
Modern cars have computers that need to “talk” to each other. CAN bus is that communication system, and problems with it can make the car act strangely or throw confusing warning lights.
A CAN bus (Controller Area Network) is the car’s internal communication network that lets modules like the engine computer, body electronics, and sensors talk to each other. When there are “CAN bus network problems,” it usually means one or more modules can’t reliably communicate, which can cause weird, hard-to-diagnose electrical and warning-light issues.
"…busting our knuckles and burning our fingers on exhaust manifolds…"
Exhaust manifolds are parts near the engine that collect exhaust gases. They get very hot, so working around them can be painful if you touch the wrong spot.
Exhaust manifolds are the engine’s exhaust collection components that route gases from multiple cylinders into the exhaust system. They can be extremely hot during operation, which is why technicians often mention “burning fingers” when working around them.
"This lady brings her car in and they put it on the hoist."
A hoist is the shop lift that raises the car. It lets the mechanic look at the underside and suspension parts safely.
A hoist is the lift used in a shop to raise a car so technicians can inspect and work underneath. It’s commonly used for suspension diagnostics because components like control arms and ball joints are easiest to check with the wheels off the ground.
"The ball joint was completely out of the lower control arm, like completely fell out and it looked brand new."
A ball joint is a small joint in the suspension that helps the wheel move and steer smoothly. If it breaks or comes apart, the wheel can wobble or shift, which can make the car shake a lot and drive poorly.
A ball joint is a suspension component that lets the wheel move up and down while also allowing steering angles. When a ball joint fails or separates, it can cause severe vibration and poor handling because the wheel’s alignment and motion are no longer controlled.
"The ball joint was completely out of the lower control arm, like completely fell out and it looked brand new."
The lower control arm is a suspension link that holds the wheel in the right position. It connects to other parts like the ball joint—if that connection fails, the wheel can move incorrectly and the car can shake or feel unsafe.
The lower control arm is part of the front suspension that locates the wheel and controls its movement relative to the chassis. Ball joints and bushings connect the control arm to the steering knuckle and frame, so if the ball joint comes out of the lower control arm, the wheel can lose its proper geometry.
"We're trying to help keep you safe.
We're trying to make sure your vehicle is reliable.
That's why we do inspections."
A vehicle inspection is when a mechanic checks the car for problems that could be unsafe. The goal is to catch issues early so they don’t turn into bigger failures later.
Vehicle inspections are structured checks performed by technicians to find worn, damaged, or unsafe components before they cause a failure. In this context, the host frames inspections as a safety process that helps prevent dangerous parts from staying on the road.
"another thing that comes with shop ownership and
needing to be profitable is you need to hire
the people who will take the time to do it, right?"
Shop ownership here means the repair business is accountable for the work it does on customers’ cars. If something is done incorrectly, the shop can be held responsible—because it affects safety.
In an automotive context, shop ownership means the business is responsible for the work performed on customer vehicles. That responsibility includes ensuring repairs are done correctly and safely, since mistakes can lead to real-world harm.
"But we have a liability.
Oh, when we take the shop, the car into our shop, we're
accepting liability and we literally sometimes have people's
lives in our hands."
Liability means responsibility for what happens because of the work done. If a safety-critical part is installed poorly and someone gets hurt, the shop can be held responsible.
Liability is the legal responsibility a shop takes on when it performs work on a customer’s vehicle. The hosts connect it to safety-critical repairs—like suspension work—where an installation error can create dangerous failure modes.
"they don't need to think about whether their car is going to fall
fall apart and that's going to be our job.
But it's not, it's not any, any laughing matter when we talk
about safety because as we are responsible for our clients
safety"
A safety-critical repair is work where mistakes can directly affect vehicle safety, such as steering and suspension components. The segment emphasizes that technicians and shops must ensure correct installation so customers don’t have to worry about the car failing while driving.
"What was your first car? [3263.4s] First car was a 1972 Pontiac Le Mans. [3267.8s] Really? [3269.0s] Which I still own."
A 1972 Pontiac Le Mans is an older American car from the muscle-car era. The host mentions it because it was the guest’s first car and they’ve owned it for a long time.
The Pontiac Le Mans is a classic American muscle-era car, and the 1972 model is from the early 1970s when Pontiac offered big V8 power. In this episode, it matters because the guest still owns it and has kept it in decent shape for decades.
"What was your first car? First car was a 1972 Pontiac Le Mans. Really?"
This is a classic Pontiac from the early 1970s that’s based on the LeMans, with the “GTO” trim meaning it was meant to be a faster, more performance-oriented version. It’s also a convertible, so the roof can be opened for driving in good weather. People mention it because it’s a well-known type of older muscle car and a standout first car.
The Pontiac LeMans GTO Convertible is a classic American muscle car from the early 1970s, built by Pontiac and offered here specifically as a convertible. It’s significant because the GTO name is associated with performance-focused versions of the LeMans, and the convertible body style adds a more distinctive, open-top character. It likely comes up because it reflects a memorable first-car choice and the era’s emphasis on bold styling and V8 power.
"and so, you know, I built a took your original engine out of [3289.5s] it and put a and I built a 68 GTO 400 for it with with a bunch [3296.2s] of modifications and a different cam."
A “GTO 400” is a Pontiac muscle-car V8 engine (the 400) that people often swap into other cars. In the story, the guest replaced their original engine with a stronger, modified version and changed the camshaft.
The “GTO 400” refers to a Pontiac GTO equipped with a 400 cubic-inch V8, a common muscle-car engine swap in the late 1960s. Here, the guest describes taking the original engine out of their Pontiac Le Mans and installing a built 400 with modifications and a different cam, which is a classic enthusiast upgrade path.
"I built a 68 GTO 400 for it with with a bunch [3296.2s] of modifications and a different cam. [3298.0s] You know, back in those days, I thought I was going to be a"
A cam (camshaft) controls when the engine’s valves open and close, which strongly affects power and how the engine feels across the RPM range. Changing the cam is a common modification when building a muscle-car engine for different performance characteristics.
"I thought I was going to be building hot rods as a work you [3304.1s] but that's not that's not eventually what happened though."
Hot rodding is when people modify older cars to improve performance or style. The guest is saying they thought they’d end up building cars like that as a career.
Hot rodding is the hobby of modifying cars—often older ones—to make them faster, sound better, or handle differently. In the episode, it’s used to describe the guest’s early dream of working on cars and building something more performance-oriented.
Concept
dirt circle tracks
"I thought I'd be racing cars coming out of high school and I [3317.3s] did in high school race on like dirt circle tracks and over [3324.5s] time, you know, you just kind of run out of time and and and"
Dirt circle tracks are race tracks where cars go around in an oval on dirt instead of pavement. The speaker is using it to describe the kind of racing they did early on.
Dirt circle tracks are oval racing circuits where cars race on dirt or clay surfaces, typically requiring different setups than paved tracks. The guest mentions racing on these tracks in high school to explain their early motorsports background.
Select text to request an explanation
But if you stop long enough to realize where you came from,
you have to realize that you're going to be part of that circle of life.
And yet you're going to have to provide that for the next generation.
That is going to be coming up.
Beyond the wrench with Jay Ganinen from Wrenchway.
Welcome back to Beyond the Wrench. My name is Jay Ganinen, and I am your host on
today's episode. I'm joined by Todd Ainsworth, shop owner,
industry leader, and somebody that I've had the pleasure to get to know through
the Northwest Auto Care Alliance.
Todd has a real passion for this industry and especially for helping
develop the next generation of technicians.
We spend a lot of time in today's conversation talking about leadership,
mentoring young technicians and the responsibility shot
that shop owners have in creating strong cultures and career paths inside
their businesses. We also get into Todd's involvement with Nahuaca and
why being connected within the industry can make such a big impact.
Let's get into it. How are you?
I'm good. I was in New Orleans last week,
so I've got a fresh perspective this week.
Probably a fresh perspective on life.
That New Orleans trip can always change some things for you.
Yeah.
Well, good. Todd, give us a little bit of your background.
How did you get into this industry?
What is it that you do now?
This will kind of set the stage for everything we're going to talk about today.
Well, I started tinkering on things mechanical at a young age,
and I was always interested in tools and how things worked.
So I had some loved cars.
So it was a logical progression by the time I got old enough to get into auto shop
in high school, I did.
And I stayed in auto shop class as long as I could in high school and got a car.
And then by the time I got out of high school,
I went to work full time at a shop and did an apprenticeship at night for four years.
And I was a professional tech for 25 years after that and then became a shop owner.
And I've now been a shop owner for 15 plus years.
And during that time, I've been able to use some time to get heavily involved
with the schools in my area education.
I'm a board member with Northwest Auto Care Alliance.
And my goal is to help change the industry by the time it's time for me to retire.
Well, and you've already done so much for the industry.
Talk to me a little bit about your early days getting into the industry.
I mean, that's going to be the topic of conversation as we go today.
But I always think it's nice to kind of take that perspective or think back to
when we were in that kind of young person seat coming into the industry
and really kind of understanding maybe how it was then versus how it is now
and maybe similarities, maybe things that are different.
But how was it when you when you were coming up?
Well, this is the mid 80s.
Then that what we're talking about then it was much different than it is now.
Things were a little looser and and you got away with a lot more back in those days.
But there was, you know, every high school had an auto shop and it was
it was more widely accepted.
I think there's a lot more people in in the industry.
Like I said, I got to work full time right after high school and I feel pretty
lucky that I wound up where I did.
It was a small, single location family owned shop, very, very small staff.
And I had a mentor that although he could be tough on me, he taught me a whole lot.
And I I I will lie to him in my formative years there because I started
working on my 17.
And so I learned a whole lot about not just working on cars, but actually
working in a shop and life in general from him.
So I feel really lucky about that.
And I moved on to another to a larger but still family owned shop after that.
And that started my started my trajectory, you know, and I specialized in engine
performance and emissions and diagnosis and electrical stuff.
Yeah.
What's funny to me when you're talking through that is that even back then
mentorship was big, right?
Maybe we didn't we didn't glorify it as much as we do now or talk about it as much.
And if it's anything like mine, it sounds maybe a little bit like some
of my mentors where they probably didn't consider themselves mentors.
They were just trying to take the young kid under their under their arm, right?
And I think so much of that is impactful for that young person coming up like
as somebody like you that's made a living out of this for a long time now, you
know, the importance of having that person to kind of guide you at that early
stage and the right person to guide you at that stage that you have to
feel lucky you got the right person because that that can really go a wrong
direction if you get the wrong person.
Oh, hundred percent.
There's a lot of times during the time there's a lot of times that I didn't
think he was the right person because of his mentorship style.
Shall we say I will keep this a family show.
But looking back on it though, I realized people have their own teaching
styles and you know, I appreciate him for what he was able to give me.
Now, how after that, I mean, your career evolves.
What brought you into shop ownership?
Well, after 25 years, you know, the physical toll was starting to take
effect.
I needed multiple shoulder surgeries, other things were going on.
And I was just kind of at a crossroads.
I wasn't sure what I was going to do if I still wanted to just be in the shop.
I had a passion for the end, you know, passing for the industry and I wasn't
able to make an impact on the industry or anything just working in the shop.
I guess who does say the only way I was going to be able to make any sort
of changes was to have some authority and the only way to do that was to
become a shop owner.
And so it wasn't what I planned on doing early in my career.
People ask me all the time, when are you going to open your own place?
What, you know, why are you still working for somebody?
I never even thought I would be.
I was like, I don't want that headache.
I don't want to do that.
Why would I, I see what these guys go through.
I mean, why would I want that, that kind of stress, but low and behold, here
I am.
Well, and how talk to me about that transition a little bit, right?
Because that transition from wrenching in the shop to going to the front
office isn't as smooth as it sounds, right?
Like there's a lot to learn that it's a different type of job altogether.
Granted, the foundation that you build doing the technical side of things
really, really does help once you're up in that seat.
But there's so much to learn on top of that, right?
Like once you get up there, there oftentimes is that struggle to adapt to
a new role.
It can be much harder on a person if they're naturally skilled at being
a technician to go to the front.
Did you see any challenge in that or was it kind of a seamless transition?
No, huge challenge.
As tech, as technicians, we like the challenge, right?
We like, we like, we like fearing the problems out.
We like fixing things.
So I had to look at this like a new set of challenges.
So it was just a different way to apply your skills.
I'm not a natural salesman.
I had very little experience doing any work up at the counter
only for a few months while I was recovering from shoulder surgery
because I couldn't work.
So as I started helping out at the counter, very limited experience
there and when we decided to strike out and open a shop.
The first thing I did was contact and join ASA Northwest, which is
where Nuwaka came from at the time.
Cause all the shops they worked at had all been members of ASA.
I knew that there was something that I need.
We needed help.
I needed guidance and so glad that I found that group as well
because they provided a lot of the mentorship from the ownership side.
Yeah.
And that's important too, right?
Same thing as the technical side, getting those mentors that are going
to kind of help you in some of those tough times, maybe give you advice
of things that maybe they went through.
The guidance of that membership in general is absolutely huge.
Yeah.
And all of us want to help other people not make the same mistakes
that we did because if you don't, they're going to be repeated over
and over and over again.
And so once you learn that you need help and then you have help available,
all you got to do is accept it and actually put it into practice.
And that's, I think that's what's led to being able to succeed.
Did you find that part humbling?
Because when you think about it, you go from something you are really,
really, really good at to something that you've got to kind of figure
your way back out again, right?
And it's almost kind of reinventing yourself as a person.
Was it humbling going through that experience?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I would say so because as a tech, I had a pretty big ego and I can't say
that I don't still have one, but you've got to learn.
You've got to learn to humble yourself.
You got to learn to let a little of that go and realize that you
don't know as much as you need to know or that you don't know as much
as you thought you did and that there are other people smarter
than you and they have something to offer you.
So realizing that you can't do the things that you did before and
that you need to become somebody new is a humbling experience.
Yeah, it is.
And I give anybody credit that goes through that experience and I will
say you must have had kind of that vision to want more help though,
right?
So if you're back then signing up for, excuse me, for an organization
like ASA, I remember growing up in a shop, I would see the sticker
on the door and I didn't know what it meant, right?
Like I just saw the logo and it was something that always stuck
out to me, but when you do look at something like that, enjoying
an association, once you get in that chair, the amount of guidance
and just coaching, not necessarily coaching, the education side
and learning and kind of all the value that comes out of that I
think is amazing, especially for a new shop and then the resources
that it comes with, it's just that it, you know, not to make it a
sales pitch for Nahuaca, but there are some incredible people
within Nahuaca and just the other shops and the people that are
actually a part of the association.
They just everything that you can kind of surround yourself, they
always talk about the importance of surrounding yourself with
the right people.
Well, that's kind of the reason to do something like that, right?
Exactly that.
When you just start looking at the success that those owners
have had and look at the shops that they own, look at the quality
of the people that they have and you realize that that is the
part of the industry that I need to be in, you know, I don't
have a dirt floor, you know, I'm not wearing coveralls, I want
to be professional, you know, we have an industry that has long
suffered from an identity crisis because we just don't value
ourselves that feel as much as we should, it's getting better.
It is.
But I mean, I've been in this industry for over 40 years now
and I can say that we were a victim of our own
selves and we need to, you know, act the way that we want to be
treated and that's with respect and professionalism and I see
all the other members of Nahuaca have great shops, great
reputations, great amount of respect and I know that that's
the organization that I need to be part of.
Oh, what you just said there, I think carries so much weight
in that I say this to Tex all the time and I think it's really
smart on your part to say the same, which is if we want all
of that stuff, we want the respect, pay, we
want all of this, we have to act in a manner that is attracting
that, right?
And so often, I think we get set in some of what was kind of
put in place for us, right?
And I kind of refer back to the fact that it wasn't that long
ago that labor rates are 35 bucks an hour, right?
Like it seems like forever ago and in a way it is, but when
you think about that time where it was 30, I'm actually curious
what was the labor rate when you first came into the industry
in the mid 80s?
Do you recall?
I gotta say if I recall right, I think it was 55.
Yeah, yeah.
And so fast forward to now, say you're 40 years ahead, you
know, we're significantly higher than that.
I hope there's still some that are teetering on that and I'm
like, guys, come on, what are you doing?
We need to get that that labor rate in line.
But the reason why is because that is what drives the
professionalism, right?
If you're not making money as a shop, you're not able to invest
in the nice scope.
You're not able to invest in the facilities that you need to
kind of drive that, you know, that brand and that awareness
of who we are as an industry.
You're not able to pay your people and at the end of the
day, this stuff has gotten extremely difficult to work on
and when you were coming in fuel injection was all the rage,
right?
And you're you're trying you're kind of transitioning from
carburetor to fuel injection.
And now, I mean, we're driving advanced computers like
there's so much that has changed in that period of time.
Yet there's still a lot that don't value themselves enough,
right?
They're not putting enough value on what they do because in
some ways it's probably second nature to them.
They've done it their entire lives.
They've been pretty good at it their entire lives and maybe
they don't think other people value that as much.
And I'm here to say like, guys, you got to start valuing
your stuff and have confidence in being able to charge
appropriately.
Right.
You have a we have a skill set that is in high demand and
should not be given away.
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, I mean, one of the most frustrating things that is
so common is that people in general, the public in general,
they'll look at you and say, hey, look at you.
You are an expert in your field.
You are so good at what you do that I know that you'll be able
to fix my car in less time.
Therefore, you don't have to charge me as much because because
you're so good.
You'll be so fast at it.
It won't take you as much time.
That is absolutely backwards.
It is.
It is.
I I couldn't agree more and I think that is that is the core
of a lot of our issues in the industry, right?
And is is just not charging appropriately and so much of
that is is really I think the cause of a lot of our problems
as a whole.
Liking this episode, join Wrenchway in the Northwest Automotive
Careers Association for an upcoming webinar, bringing
together ITAC and ASE Connects to talk about the tools and
programs already available in the Northwest to help build
the next generation of technicians.
You'll hear how Milwaukee supports independent shops
through training and advocacy, how ITACs registered
apprenticeship program creates a real paid pathway from
classroom to career and how shops and schools can connect
through ASE Connects to start building relationships that
are strengthening your pipeline.
The webinar is Wednesday, June 3rd at 3.30 Pacific Time.
Whether you can make it live or not, Register anyway will
send you the recording.
Register now at wrenchway.com slash events or follow the
link in the show notes.
So Todd, as we're talking about profitability for shops and
kind of the impact that that has on developing tax and maybe
not even just developing tax, like retaining tax, finding
tax and being able to staff your shop adequately.
Doesn't that feel like a huge opportunity for us to get better
as an industry?
Like if we're working to charge appropriately and pay, you
know, at market or maybe even above market to attract that
really, really good talent, doesn't that feel like maybe
some low hanging fruit of things that we can do as a shop?
Yeah, well, you touched on it earlier just a little bit ago
and you said that if you're not profitable, you're not going
to be able to invest in the equipment.
You're not going to buy the scopes.
You're not going to be able to retain the talent or attract
the talent, right?
So us being, you know, most shop owners or technicians turn shop
owner, you know, I think that's I mean, that's a common pathway.
And are also far too common that techs aren't necessarily good
business owners, right off the bat.
Anyway, because they, that wasn't, that wasn't our thing.
We learned to be techs.
We got good at what we did.
It's time to open a shop.
You don't know how to read a P&O.
You don't know what your profits should be.
You don't know what you should be able to afford.
What's your marketing budget?
I don't, I don't know.
I've never done that before.
But if you're not profitable, you're not going to achieve
any of it.
You know, if you, if you don't make enough money, you're not
going to be able to pay the people that you want to work
for you because they are going to command a higher price
because there is a shortage of talent.
And that's, you know, one of the things that we're working
to try to correct is getting more talented people into the
industry, but considering the competition that we have with
other industries, we need to be able to pay them to even get
into the industry.
So we need to be profitable to attract the talent and keep
the talent you already have.
And that's going to include also annual stuff like training.
I mean, how much, how much money do we need to spend not
only on tools and equipment, but training to keep them up
to speed?
Because like you said, the technology has just leapfrogged
every, every 10 years.
It seems like we're in a whole new, whole new world in
the automotive industry.
You know, we, we saw the leaps in the past from manual
transmissions to automatics and from drum brakes to disc brakes
and from points and condenser to electronic condition and on
and on to computer controls and fuel injection.
But now we are, they're just computers that happen to have
cars that happen to have wheels on them.
Yeah.
And so it's super technical.
We need smart people.
The image that a lot of people may have of the grease monkey
with the, with the dirty rag hanging, hanging out with the
back pocket, you know, it's just, it's not reality.
It's not, we're, we're, we're looking at can bus network
problems and very technical things.
So unless we work to change that image, people are still
going to think that we're, you know, that we're knuckle
draggers, but we need to pay them a whole lot of money to
drag those knuckles now.
Well, it's, it's interesting to me.
One of the things that I'll pick out of what you just said
there is really our fight against other industries for
young talent coming in.
And I do think this is something that we're going to start
talking a lot about because traditionally we've always
talked about how, you know, schools have really pointed
students in the four year school direction, but now you're
starting to see a shift in money.
Somebody had forwarded me a, a text of a press release from
BlackRock that they were donating a 100000000
dollars into technical education.
And at first I was like, you know what?
That's really, really cool.
And then I started reading it more.
And I, the only thing I thought to myself is, of course
they are, they need electricians and plumbers to be able
to build these, these data centers and they need a lot
of them.
And the problem that I've got with that now is we were
already as an industry, maybe behind those industries in
terms of pay.
I think at least that's the perception in a lot of ways
where, you know, that electrician that's out there isn't
having to buy a ton of tools and is making really good
money and that's about to explode.
Like they're about to get more and more as, as that
demand goes.
Same with plumbers.
You're starting to see more and more of that.
Now, of course they all have fleets.
They all have their repair needs for vehicles, but it's
really hard because if we saw, I'd love to see what their
labor rates are traditionally, right?
For that, that electrician, that plumber that's out there
because it wouldn't make us feel so bad about what we're
charging customers, I think, right?
Like I've got buddies that own both kinds of companies and
and they'll still like, it's just, they'll tell me what
they charge and it's mind blowing, right?
Because it's, it is on the job and they, you know, are
traveling out to your home or wherever you're going.
If it's a new construction, but they don't have a problem
charging.
We seem to have that problem, but we're going to have to
fix that real quick.
If we're going to compete with them on young talent.
Yeah, because, uh, no, exactly what you said.
They don't, they don't feel bad about charging what they
charge for labor, you know, because people need them
and people can't do it themselves.
And that's another thing about this common misperception
about our industry is somehow, some ways people think
that working on cars is easy still.
Yeah.
And they think that you could do it yourself or you can
get the guy down, guy down the street to come, to come,
you know, hey, I'm going to give you a six pack.
What, you know, you know, would you come helping to
work on my car?
Uh, no, we can't be afraid and we need to have pride in
what we're doing.
We need to know that that's valuable.
People can't do it.
They can't do it on their own.
They need us and, uh, we shouldn't be ashamed that we
are skilled that we've put all this time and effort and
investment into buying tools and attending training and
busting our knuckles and burning our fingers on exhaust
manifolds and all the time that we've spent gaining the
skills that we have, uh, is worth a lot.
It's worth something.
I don't know if you have any stories around it, but I've
got a quick one to share from my family's shop.
And this happened probably six months ago, but I stopped
down by the shop and was talking, I was talking with
the team just kind of seeing how things were going.
And one of the guys in the shop calls me over, he goes,
Jay, check this out.
This lady brings her car in and they put it on the hoist.
And she said, it's got this really, really bad vibration
and it's, it's, uh, not running well.
So they put the car up on the hoist.
The ball joint was completely out of the lower control
arm, like completely fell out and it looked brand new.
And so they go back up to the front and say, well, ma'am,
um, did, did somebody recently work on this car?
And she said, well, yeah, my, my son, uh, just put ball joints
in it and this lady had driven like 15 miles to get to our
shop and you're just like it, you know, at probably 65
miles an hour with a lower ball joint that is not, I mean,
just not even connected and or barely connected.
And it just reminded me, you know, we talk about all the
complex stuff in our industry, something as simple as a ball
joint where, you know, we've all done them a million times,
but then the general consumer thinks that they can do that job
and could have potentially killed his mother, right?
Like that's, that's no joke.
He sent her down the road to our place when that thing,
there's no way that should have been on the road.
And I just think about all those stories over the years
where you're like, I wish we did a better job at explaining
that to the end user customer, right?
Like we're not, we're not trying to pull one over you.
We're, we're trying to help keep you safe.
We're trying to make sure your vehicle is reliable.
That's why we do inspections.
You know, it's all of this stuff where you're like, and I
wish we didn't have to fight this perception at times
that it's easy and that we're trying to pull one over on
people.
You're like, no, this is hard stuff to do and you're putting
yourself at pretty major risk if you try it on your own.
Yeah.
Well, this is the same perception that we fought ever
since I entered this industry.
I mean, we've been fighting this the whole time and it's,
it's a great point to bring up about the bull joint story
because another thing that comes with shop ownership and
needing to be profitable is you need to hire
the people who will take the time to do it, right?
Of course.
But we have a liability.
Oh, when we take the shop, the car into our shop, we're
accepting liability and we literally sometimes have people's
lives in our hands.
Every time you take a wheel off or put a ball joint in, now
that is you.
That is your liability.
We, we have to provide safety for our clients and then they
don't need to think about whether their car is going to fall
fall apart and that's going to be our job.
But it's not, it's not any, any laughing matter when we talk
about safety because as we are responsible for our clients
safety and somebody doing a poor job of installing a bull joint,
you're right.
That's somebody's life could be in danger there and we are
guaranteeing that's not going to happen when you bring it to
us, right?
All of us need to be doing that.
Whether you, whether you charge enough or not, you are doing
it.
Yeah.
Whether you like to or not, if something happens, they're
going to look for what who last touched that car and I think
that's going to get even worse with Ados, right?
Where if there are more of these collisions and maybe you didn't
properly do that calibration or, you know, something even just
writing, right?
When we're talking about writing work orders and the need to
have good polished and clean work orders to document everything
that we did because if something bad does happen and
unfortunately we live in the day and age where you kind of
have to live in that kind of mindset where you got to protect
yourself, it's just the technology in the advances in it.
I think are going to make that site even more complicated.
Yeah.
Which is, which is another, another way to come back on the, on
the professionalism that we need to exhibit.
It's just got to come from the front at the counter.
It's got to come from the text themselves.
It's got to come from the image of the business and just the
way, the way that we run all aspects of the business.
We need to present ourselves as professionals and act like it
at the same time.
Which sounds like a lot, right?
Because when we talk about this technician shortage that we've
all been battling for decades at this point.
It's just been a lot worse in this decade.
What we're finding is that it's going to be,
require more smart people, right?
And, and it can't just be anybody coming into this industry
and you know, I kind of want to shift this to talking about
how do we find those young people?
How do we raise them to be professionals?
How do we get structure around them so that when, when they do
get in the shop that they're not on an island and that they're
getting the training that they need and that they're, they're
doing the things they need because I just look at that 18
year old that's out there right now and how much cars are going
to change in their life, right?
You know, if you look at 40 years from now, like how different
is their life going to look?
And it's just wild to think about, they're going to probably
go through more change than, than any of us have up until
this point.
How do you think we start to get better there, right?
Like, and I know this is a really, really vague question
that I'm asking, but when we look at maybe some of the
struggles we've had as an industry, it's on the retention
side, it's on the recruiting side and the development side
of trying to get this up and coming crowd into our shops
and, and not only into our shops, but thriving, right?
We want them to come in, be productive and, and really be
good employees.
Where do you think we missed the ball at there?
Uh, well, unfortunately, I think we missed the ball because
we're too busy being busy.
We're, we're too busy trying to solve what's going to happen
right now.
We don't have time to think about tomorrow.
Um, and a lot of that comes with the way that you run the
business in the first place.
Um, depending on the size of the shop or the experience of
you as an owner, uh, you may, you may have so many fires to
put out right in front of you that you can't think down
the road or take time out for yourself.
You just can't wait for the end of the day.
So you can just go home and just, you know, kicked, kicked
your feet, feet up.
But when I was, when I started, when I came into the industry
right at high school, uh, I was going to, I had already tested
for and applied for the GM training center in tiger, tiger
at Oregon, and that was my plan.
I was going to go to, I was going to move to Portland.
I was going to go to tiger.
I was going to become a GM tech, right?
In the meantime, I got a job at a local shop near the high
school that, that I was going to, and I figured that was going
to be, you know, my first job, a summer job.
I had worked at, at a gas station and stuff before, but my
first, you know, mechanic job.
And, uh, so I worked there during the summer and then there
was a, there was delays in getting that GM, uh, program
off the ground.
So I continued to work there.
And when I decided that I was just going to continue to work
there, uh, at the time we were still, we still had union
representation in our area, uh, for independent texts.
So I joined the union and the union had a sponsored
apprenticeship program.
Um, it was called, it was, it was called machinists, right?
But, oh, okay.
But so I went to school at night for four years along
with working full time.
And at the college that I was going to take these night
classes, all the night classes were taught by industry members.
And so I, there was a Ford class and it was taught by a guy
who worked during the day at Ford and he was volunteering.
Well, he was getting paid.
I'm sure, but he was, was teaching his knowledge
at night to us and same with GM and another guy who did
electrical and, and, uh, and HVAC and a fuel injection class
by a guy who was part of the Bosch team that developed fuel
injection in the first place.
Yeah.
And just all these people that taught us and I saw that
their industry members getting back to the industry in, in
teaching young people at that time, that stuck with me.
And I think that's probably informed.
My decisions over the years to try to keep that in mind and
also give back and do what I can to mentor young people and
be involved in the apprenticeship program now that
Nuwaka has created, which is called ITAC and, uh, I think
it's the passion that we individually need to have for
the industry and our willingness to give some of our time
and investment back to it for the young people to see that
we are willing to invest in them.
And if we as shop owners don't have the bandwidth to be able
to do that, I think we're going to continue to spend our wheels
a little bit.
It's, it's going to take, uh, the willingness to put the
time in and it's going to take a little pain to watch them
struggle and not expect too much out of them.
But if you do that and we show them that we value them and
that we're willing to invest in them, I think they will.
I think they will, and I don't think I know, I know that
they will appreciate it and they will have some loyalty and
they will see that you are willing to take a chance on them
and they're going to pay it back.
So I think that part is that the pay it back part, I think
tells you everything you need to know about this industry,
right?
There are so many of great, great industry folks that have
that almost need to give back because the industry's been
so great to so many and you wouldn't find that if the
industry wasn't great, right?
Like there's, there's a lot of people that want to help and
they want to move the industry in the right direction.
And I think that speaks volumes about the industry as a
whole.
Are we perfect?
Absolutely not.
But there are a lot of really passionate people about this
industry and people that do want to give back like you.
And I want to ask you about that apprenticeship program from
Milwaukee because I want to dive into what makes an
apprenticeship effective.
Like what, what is it that when you look at an apprenticeship
that makes it like that the execution of it work?
It hinges on the shop and the shop owner.
Willing to make it make that investment in that young person
or in that apprentice.
Um, they need to provide the mentorship and that's usually
going to be one of the technicians that's in the shop.
They need to figure out how to incentivize that mentor to do
that.
And that means you can't, you can't expect them to start
making less just because they have the privilege of teaching
something somebody, right?
So how do we incentivize everybody to participate?
Because if it's, if it's not a win-win for everybody, uh, then
the participation is going to lag.
But the success hinges on that whole thing on how much passion
and investment the shop owners willing to make and how much
everybody else, you know, how much the mentor is going to
embrace that role.
And I think that we all as expert texts should embrace that
role because somebody taught us and we've spent a lifetime
gaining the skill, what better way to complete your career
than to give that knowledge on to the next generation.
And so we need, we need to make sure that people want to do
that.
I agree.
And I think there are a lot of people that want to do it
even when they say they don't want to do it, right?
I've got friends of mine that are probably pretty close to
retirement as technicians that I'm not a mentor.
I'm not a mentor.
And then you'll see them in the shop like working with a young
person and helping them out and hey, I do it this way.
Just, it'll save you a little bit of time if you move, you
know, this piece over here.
And I think there, some people don't want the title of it,
right?
They don't want to be like kind of the, um, the fancy mentor word.
But then there's also kind of the side of it where there's
some people that probably shouldn't be mentors, right?
Like that just aren't going to be good teachers or have
patients with a young person.
I know 11 thing I get really worried about with mentors
in general is something that you see online and that is
somebody saying, you know, don't, don't come work here.
Don't come to this industry.
Don't do this.
It's hard on your body.
It's, it's a hard job overall.
And some of those people maybe, and some of it could be down
to what you were saying, the shop itself, right?
There are still some bad shops out there.
There's still some shops that don't treat their people well.
There's some shops that aren't doing it for the right reasons.
But when you find those good ones and you find the ones that
have those teacher type mentality folks in them and you tie
something like your apprenticeship program to that, it's magic.
It works like it's not, it's not rocket science.
Like you, you have to get the right people involved.
You have to have structure around it.
And the more you do that and some level of accountability,
right, to each other and that you're doing this in the best
interest of that young person coming into the shop.
The more you can do that, the more you're going to have good
employable human beings working for you, right?
Where they, you raise them on the way you want to be raised.
You, and you put them down a path that's going to help.
But I think you and I have talked about this before where
my frustration with our industry, this isn't independent.
This isn't dealer.
This is kind of everybody where I get really frustrated with
the lack of patience we have with young people, right?
We expect them to come in.
They'll go to a one year school or a two year school.
They come out of school and, you know, they're not full
production in two months and we're freaking out and you're
like, Oh my gosh, guys, we talk about how complicated the
stuff is all the time and here you're expecting somebody to go
to maybe a tech school or even not a high school and know
what they're talking about.
And it's just not realistic, right?
Like I think that early stage expectation is so often missed.
Yeah, well, that's, that's just too, it's too true, right?
Because you talk about the mentors are in this.
You're right that not everybody should be a mentor and it
could be because of the way that they've been treated in
their, in their career at places that, that they've worked
and it's made them jaded.
You don't want that same attitude transferred to some, to
somebody that you're trying to grow now, right?
So I think, I think the biggest thing and the biggest advantage
to the apprenticeship program that we have ITAC is that all
you really need is the willingness and desire to do it and
the passion for it.
Hopefully you've run your business in a way that you can
financially support it, right?
We get that we circle back to, to profit.
Yeah, running a good business.
But, but, but the apprenticeship program lays it out that we
have the program laid out so you don't have to create it on
your own.
That's not something that you need to worry about.
How am I going to monitor their progress?
How am I going to make sure that they're working on what
they're supposed to be working on?
How am I going to make sure that they're getting the
instruction that I want them to?
Because that's what the apprenticeship does.
It has the framework built for you.
So you as a shop owner, you're not an educator, but you want
to teach somebody.
All you need to do is, is have the willingness to do it and
the apprenticeship program is going to give you the tools
and the framework and the setup to make it happen.
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Do you have advice for that shop that's out there that might
want to take on something like this?
But maybe, you know, you said life gets in the way.
We get busy and it's really, really hard to slow down
enough to do something like this.
Any advice for that shop that's out there that has the desire
but maybe not the time and they're trying to figure this thing
out?
Well, if they're, if they have the ability to participate in our
program, I would, you know, we have a coordinator that would
be more than happy to talk to him.
Any of the committee members would be having to talk to him.
It's just communication.
It's just first step is saying, Hey, I want to do this and
contact us.
We'll have that conversation.
We'll, you know, we'll explain how it works.
We're going to, we're going to make it easy for you.
The biggest, the biggest obstacle is just, is just having
making the commitment, you know, making the commitment to
actually make it work in the first place.
With the apprenticeship that you have laid out, what is the age
range that you, you typically see as an apprentice?
Well, typically they're going to be over 18.
They're probably just finishing high school or have finished
high school and they're in an automotive in a post post secondary
automotive program, whether it's a technical school or a
community college.
That's, I mean, that's, that's kind of your target goal, but
we have different pathways within the program.
We have different pathways depending on where you are.
You could be in it when you're still in high school.
You could be in it if you've been out of school for a while.
Maybe you, maybe you've completed an automotive program or
maybe you haven't.
So there are pathways for, you know, somewhat older, older
apprentices that want to get into it, but typically they're
going to be in an automotive program post post high school.
They're going to be attending classes probably during half
of the day, half of the day and then coming to work for you
for the second half of the day.
And so it's a, it's a work-based learning and a classroom
learning combination.
Um, and we have, uh, you know, our requirements for you to
progress to the next step in the, in, in the program.
Um, and there's, there's a lot more, a lot more details on
all of that stuff on, on our website and with, with, with
our, with our association.
Yeah.
And we'll make sure to put a link to the website in the
show notes of the podcast.
So people that are interested, which I would sure hope after
listening to Todd, you are interested in something like
this, because it is, I think so important for our industry to
get their hands around the fact that this technician shortage
is true.
It's not just your area.
It's not just your shop.
Everybody's struggling with this.
And until we start to kind of take a different mindset into
how we approach this and, and look at it that, you know,
we've had the same shift in our, in my own company, right?
With, between going from a recruiting based company many,
many years ago to now doing no recruiting and all on the
development side of things and, and really getting involved
with schools, really getting involved with trying to understand
the industry at a, at a greater depth.
I think you, you, you're starting to see this shift and I
think it's really, really needed of like, Oh no, this, all
of these things I've been reading about in these trade
publications about the shortage and, you know, all of the
struggles I've had over the years and not being able to find
people in the fact that that's only getting harder now.
There's a reason for it and it's because we've not paid
attention to the development side and, and we, we use a line
from ASC a lot, which is it truly is a national problem
with local solutions.
And I think where we've gone wrong as an industry is it's
been really, really easy to sit on your hands and not do
something like this apprenticeship program and, and not put
the time and effort into developing people, but similar
to what your transition to the shop was taught, I think
that's where we need more folks in our industry to kind of put
on that CEO hat of their own shop and really change and shift
the viewpoint of what their job is from, you know, your job
isn't as technical anymore.
It is making sure the right people are in the shop and it
should be more proactive in how you're going about it because
if you don't adapt and you don't change, you're just going
to continually chase your tail.
And I think it's going to get harder and harder to find those
quality people as the job gets more advanced.
But for my plea to especially the independent shop that's
out there do it, Todd did get that training, get that business
education, understand how to operate your shop, get profitable
and then view your job as getting the right people in the
shop to do these things and treat them really, really well
because I think at the end of the day, that is the magic recipe
to your happiness as a shop owner.
Well, I would, I would echo that 100%.
And for me, I could speak from experience.
It was hard.
It took a while for me to finally admit to myself that I'm
not a technician anymore because that was my identity for so
long and I would probably speak for a lot of us like
that, that to call yourself something else other than a
technician felt weird.
But now I am a business owner.
I'm not a technician.
It's not that I wasn't or I don't support them or that's the
backbone of what we do.
But to realize, no, I am a business owner.
My job has changed.
And so I used to think that I needed to be able to be the
best at everything here and I needed to be able to step in
and do it or anyone couldn't.
But my view of myself has changed over the years and now
I my job is just to provide the environment and hire the best
people.
I provide the environment for them to do what they do best
and help them along the way, help them to be the best at
what they can do.
Because how many shoppers do you hear say, Oh, I wish I could
find a great technician.
Where are they?
Where are they?
Where are these great technicians that are just standing
around on corners just waiting to be plucked?
No, they're all working.
They're all working at shops.
They all have great jobs.
They're all being paid.
Well, you know, no, you know, if you can't say and that I am
going to go look for somebody, I'm going to train them the
way I want to train them because even in my own ownership days,
I've made hires that I regret and these are people who have
been in the industry.
They've learned bad habits.
Believe me, everybody, it's it's much easier to teach somebody
the way that you think the industry should be than it is
to try to untrain somebody who's been in the industry and
has developed some bad habits along the way.
So a lot less, a lot less frustration than I think in the
long run is going to make the industry better.
Not only your business, but all of us man, that was really
powerful.
What you just said there, that entire clip was great.
And I think that also is the key to building a good culture,
right?
Because we talk a lot about that side of it as well where
oftentimes when you see a bad culture in a shop, it's because
a shop owner made a desperate hire shop manager made a desperate
hire and it just happened to be somebody that could work on
cars, but they didn't really question whether they'd fit
in with the other people in the shop or not.
And it is like putting a magical puzzle piece together and
putting a shop staff together.
And the more you can view it that way and that, you know,
maybe maybe you don't need that a technician right now.
Maybe you need that under car technician.
That's really, really good at what they're doing.
And I give a shout out to Carm Capriato who I was just talking
to yesterday about the rise of the specialist.
He's got his new white paper out that talks about maybe a shift
in mindset from technician to specialist.
And I think there's just so much good about that and being able
to raise somebody up into more of that specialist type of
position, even if you are a generalist, right?
Like maybe you do have specialties in the shop that you're
working on.
But I say all of that just to say like as we're raising people
up into this industry, that's where you've got the right
mindset Todd.
Like being able to raise them the way that you want to raise
them, get them into your culture, really put your arms around
them and show them the way in the way that your mentor did
for you back in the day, right?
And being able to drive you into just having a positive
experience in our industry.
I just feel so strongly that we need shops everywhere to be
able to kind of take that same approach, have that understanding
that you aren't finding that technician on a street corner
and that you got to have some type of intentionality when it
comes to developing people.
Otherwise, you're just constantly going to be struggling.
Yeah, I mean, I don't know how my career would have gone had
I had my first job not been where it was at, had I not had the
mentor that I had, would I still be in the same place that I
am now?
I don't, I don't know, but if you stop long enough to realize
where you came from, you have to realize that you're going to
be part of that circle of life and yet you're going to have
to provide that for the next generation that is going to be
coming up.
And it's not saying it's easy, you know, but nothing we do
is easy. It's it takes an investment of time, takes an
investment of resources, you know, that they're going to make
mistakes.
But if you know, but we know that because we
all did it can't punish them for doing the same thing that
we did, you know, yet we see it all the time, don't we? We see
it in a lot of shops and that's, that's where I think so much
has to change in our industry and it comes down to leadership.
It takes more takes more Todd's in the world of taking that
leap from that technical side to a true leader and making sure
that they're taking care of their shop, that they're getting
all of everything in line. And I love the way that you phrased
all of that because I think it's sorely needed throughout
our industry. So that has been just phenomenal advice. And
as we kind of get close to closing this thing out, which
seems crazy that in hours gone by already, we do have a few
fun quick hitting questions for you a little get to know you
session. First question is, are you a early bird or a night owl?
I'm an early bird. Early bird. All right. It used to be a night
owl too. But now I'm older. So I'm only an early bird.
Operate on those 234 hours of sleep and keep
rolling. Yeah. Not anymore.
No, not anymore.
What's your favorite type of food?
Oh, probably generally speaking probably tacos.
Can't go wrong with tacos. Yeah. Yeah. Very few times I've
met a taco. I didn't want to eat that's that's they're good.
They're great.
What was your first car?
First car was a 1972 Pontiac Le Mans.
Really?
Which I still own.
What are you kidding me?
Nope, I've owned it for 42 years.
Oh my goodness. And still in decent shape.
Yeah, yeah, I could. I haven't started it this year yet, but
and so, you know, I built a took your original engine out of
it and put a and I built a 68 GTO 400 for it with with a bunch
of modifications and a different cam.
You know, back in those days, I thought I was going to be a
race car driver.
I thought I was going to be building hot rods as a work you
but that's not that's not eventually what happened though.
It worked out all right for you.
You've done well for yourself in this life and and it is funny
how you know, I thought the same thing.
I thought I'd be racing cars coming out of high school and I
did in high school race on like dirt circle tracks and over
time, you know, you just kind of run out of time and and and
it's an expensive sport and everything costs a lot of money
right and so it just it was it was always tough to realize that
dream but I think a lot of us had that when we were younger
and at least you've got still your first car.
I think mine has been in an impound or it's been scrapped
a long long time ago.
It wasn't worthy of keeping around but that's that's pretty cool.
Did it was it in good shape when you got it?
Yeah, well, I got it from the first owner and just that's
another thing to you know, as time goes by isn't so this
was a 1972 Le Mans I bought in 1984.
That means it was only 12 years old.
So I bought it from the original owners.
So I'm only the second owner which in the Northwest you
don't get as much rust out there either, right?
No, yeah, yeah, we're in the Midwest.
12 years is a long time in the Midwest.
It it'll tear up some stuff.
But also from a shop perspective, way nicer to work on cars
out there than it is in the Midwest.
The Midwest all the rust is really really challenging.
Well, it's weird in the early day, you know, back in the 80s
and 90s, I could always tell when a car came from the from
from from that area because it would stick out like like a
sort of thumb but in the 2000s, we actually the state started
using salt on on roads here in the winter.
And so it's chain now now we're seeing rust not not like not
like back back there.
But yeah, I've seen a lot more rust on cars that have lived
there lived here their whole lives.
It's it's weird because they wasn't like that before at all.
Well, I just remember my buddy George Aaron said ASC and I
were at a conference where we were going from Portland to
Seattle and so we drove up and there along the road.
We saw the salvage yard.
I've always said I'm going to go back to it because like we
were driving along the highway and there was a salvage yard
and we're looking at some of the old metal in there and
you're like, Oh my goodness, there's some stuff in really
really good shape out there that we really don't see in the
Midwest.
And so there was that George and I always joke we're going to
make it back out to that salvage yard at some point because
it looked like some good some goodies out there.
Yeah, let me know.
Yeah, yeah, we'll meet up.
We'll have a great time.
But I Todd, I can't tell you how much I've appreciated getting
to know you getting to know all the folks at Noaka.
We'll get Mike back on the on the show.
But it's been such a pleasure and everybody's so nice out
there every time we have a conversation.
It's just always a lot of fun.
So just genuinely appreciate the partnership appreciate
everything you guys do and and really your heart for the
industry as a whole.
And lastly, thanks for coming on the show.
Well, I really appreciate the opportunity and I appreciate
our conversation here and your involvement with with the
wrenchway and what we're doing here and hopefully we're going
to be driving a bunch of young people from from the classroom
into our shops and I'm super excited about what's going to
happen.
So I really appreciate you what you've done so far.
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much for listening.
We'll see you next week.
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