CarCast+Edmunds - New Toyota RAV4 is significantly improved but is it enough to beat the top competitors?

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Hello, welcome to the CarCast Edmunds Podcast, where's an Edmunds CarCast podcast.

I'm not sure the exact order we've been saying it in.

Maybe it's Edmunds CarCast podcast.

I'm Matt the Motor Rider, D'Andrea with Alistair Weaver, and Brian Wong, welcome back to the

show.

How are you guys doing?

I'm good.

I'm recovering.

It was a big week for us.

So we got a lot of throughput with the RAV4 because it's big news when the best-selling

car in the world gets a pretty significant update.

New Toyota RAV4 we need to get on deck for that one.

We left off last week where Alistair you were talking about wrapping up all of the filming

on the new season.

I guess we're calling it the new season of U-Drags, the Edmunds U-Drags, and Brian,

you weren't here last week, but we got into the supercharged dark horse and the dyno numbers

and what does that mean?

And I had some experience with my Mustang Mach 1 out here in California on 91 octane,

basically almost matching those numbers.

But to see what the dark horse did, how it performed, I had went and saw the dark horse

versus Corvette video from a while back where the Corvette smoked the dark horse, right?

But now it looks like the tables have turned a little bit.

Yeah, this went live.

Yeah, this is now live on the YouTube channel, the 10 series, believe it or not,

of Edmunds U-Drags.

It was fun because we didn't do one in the summer for reasons I won't bore the audience

with and it was nice to see in a lot of the comments, people saying,

oh, we thought this had been canned.

We thought you'd gone away, but we're back.

It must not listen to the podcast.

Well, that's something we need to address.

So yeah, we're back this time with Mustang supercharged versus Corvette

and the Mustangs revenge.

I think we can give the game away now.

It's all live, really nice to see the commentary.

Lots of people saying, oh, well, you should put it against the 06.

You should put against the hybrid and the, you know, the e-ray and everything else.

But it's it's a really fun video.

We think we've, you know, we're on to something with this concept.

A lot of people enjoy it.

I can't remember in the previous show that you shared the anecdote about.

We thought we had a trespasser on set.

Yes, we sent one of the production team and it turned out to be a fan with binoculars.

So when stuff when stuff like that happens, it's like, this is, you know,

you feel like you're getting somewhere with a concept.

And so that's the first of the series.

We also trailed within that video that we have the Corvette ZR1 coming up.

I think that's that's probably up next memory surf.

So so we got high hopes for the ZR1, right?

Because the leaderboard haven't checked it in a while.

But, you know, McLaren's were were high up at the top, like McLaren 720 or 750.

They were kind of up there.

Right. So, yeah, 765 and 750 s with the fastest gas cars we've tested.

And then above that, Tesla, Prada, Porsche, Taycan, turbo GT

and ultimately Lucid Sapphire on its own at the top.

So the question with the ZR1 is can a thousand and sixty four horsepower

gas supercar, you know, can that can that outpace the the EVs?

Obviously, I know the answer was driving.

But I'm not about to reveal it here.

I, you know, I'm just going to go out and say, I think

I think ZR1 is is going to top the leaderboard,

at least of the gas engine vehicles, for sure.

And it could be one of the the the EVs.

I just think it's going to do very, very well.

And that's a very bold claim against when you think that a McLaren 765LT

is a what is it, half a million dollar carbon fiber bespoke,

go faster track car.

So that feels that feels quite bold to me.

I will say it.

I'm not saying the GM engineers sit around

and watch the Edmunds you drags all the time and use it as a performance benchmark.

However, they are not unaware of of the leaderboard

and performance benchmarks of of those cars.

And I think it's for them going after the 765LT is

is something I think that they were definitely paying attention to.

I think they want to go after that car, not just in Edmunds you drags,

but just as a performance benchmark, they need to be able to go.

Our two hundred thousand dollar car is better than

McLaren's five hundred thousand dollar car, right?

Talk about a feather in their cap.

Yeah, yeah, I think that's that's undeniably undeniably true.

And I think what Chevy were telling me is they're finding a lot of people

who are buying or who had early orders for the ZR1,

where people have also had McLaren's and the ZR1 is additive.

Because let's face it, there are, you know, there aren't many people

spending over two hundred grand on a sports car these days.

You know, it's a very small niche market.

And a lot of time it's people who you're right, Brian, these new jackets.

We've got new team jackets and Edmunds test.

And I was wearing it proudly for the YouTube orders,

but they are a bit noisy when you when you move around.

Anyway, I digress.

That is the yeah, that that that's that's kind of the interesting thing

is how many people are buying this and what else have they got.

But anyway, two weeks, two weeks to go and all will be revealed.

It's good. I can tell you that it was unbelievable to drive.

And it's it's a great watch.

There's the promo.

OK, now.

Now, what is so the the supercharged dark dark horse versus the the Corvette

Stingray, I think went Thursday.

Right. As you're listening to this, it's probably Monday.

So it dropped on Thursday.

What is the release schedule of the you drags videos?

Pretty much every two weeks.

It's not a hard and fast rule, but we got 11 in the can that will kind of drip

drip out now. So we try and run it every two weeks.

The reality is we have people in the commentary on the YouTube

saying, why can't you do this every week?

Why can't I do this, that and everything else?

It's it's a big production effort.

And not only is it a big production effort to film the thing,

it's also just difficult to get that many cars together.

That's always been the case that people, I think, don't realize.

It's like other than the cars that you guys own in your fleet,

trying to coordinate getting, you know, manufacturers, cars,

those press cars out here, because we all kind of get on a list

and try to fight for those cars, if you will, and go, hey, you know,

our end of the year awards are coming up or this is coming up.

And we really like to test the two.

Can we get them at the same time?

And that that takes a lot of work.

It takes a lot of work and there's also a lot of politics.

So, for example, if you want to run a Porsche, then the US has an opinion.

But a lot of time they'll go back to Germany and say,

what do we think about running this against this?

And then everybody, because nobody wants to lose.

And one of the challenges that we have is we've got big enough

that people care, but not so big that, you know, that are so big

that you just have to take part.

So if you look at like the old days of the Grand Tour and Top Gear TV,

I know a lot of PR people in the UK with the Top Gear became this global phenomenon.

Right. And so many of the PRs hated it because, oh, well, they're going to,

you know, they're going to, you know, you're going to diss the car, whatever.

And then I've got 400 million people hearing what, you know, how toilet my car is.

But then the reality was it was so big that it had 400 million people.

So you had to take part.

And we're at the moment, you know, we're too big in that there's enough

eyeballs on it where everybody really cares.

But we haven't got a six billion person audience where it's like, oh, God,

we've got to take part.

So there's all these challenges.

And I think, you know, people just see you driving the car.

I mean, I'm not getting my violin out here, but people do see us driving

the cars and don't necessarily always appreciate some of the legwork in the background.

Anyway, enough of our professional work.

Should we talk RAV4?

Let's talk RAV4.

And Brian, you were doing the testing on that and some comparisons as well.

I don't know where you want to start.

Just let's intro the RAV4.

Yeah. So I want to start out by giving a shout out to my co-worker,

Reese, who drove the car back from Arizona, so we could test it and shoot

this comparison and do all this stuff.

Because I think it was it was very important for us to not just evaluate

the RAV4 on how much the RAV4 itself has improved, but to actually see how it

now stacks up against the best compact SUVs out there.

Because, you know, to be fair, the old RAV4, even though they sold a ton of them,

it had some pretty significant issues, which the new RAV4 for the most part solves.

So, you know, it was kind of, you know, we already knew that kind of from the first

look and kind of just what features it was adding that it was going to be better.

But it was very important for us to get it back here, tested at the track

and also get hands on it right alongside the Honda CR-V and the Kia Sportage Hybrid,

two of our favorite compact SUVs that were both rated higher than the RAV4 previously.

Why don't you just walk us through some of the the changes of the new

the 26 RAV4 and then we'll get into the how it compares against the others.

Yeah, so obviously looks very different, which has improved in number one.

The old RAV4 was very anonymous.

I think, you know, if you're buying something that is, you know, so popular,

you kind of very much gets lost in the crowd.

So I think when they do a redesign, they really need to try to, you know,

judge it up enough that you can kind of tell that you're getting something new.

And they've definitely done that on the outside, especially those GR versions.

On the inside, it's also did a very good job with the front design of making it very practical.

So one of the things that we really liked about it is the amount of small storage spaces that you get.

So there's actually two shelves there under the screen.

There's another shelf in front of the passenger.

There's a very big center console bin with a lid that actually opens in both directions

and that you can also take out and flip over to make it to like a little table.

The other side is plastic.

So if you're like me and you like to eat Taco Bell in the car and you're worried about getting like,

you know, you're upholstery dirty, you just flip that thing over.

It's plastic. You can wash it real easily.

The other big improvement that they needed to make and that they did was on the technology front.

So those two screens there, they're actually the one in front of the driver.

It's a standard 12.3 inch digital instrument cluster display.

And I think it's the only vehicle in the class that I can think of that has a standard digital display of that size.

And the other thing that they fixed on that was previously Toyota's instrument clusters.

They're notoriously really hard to customize and they're very confusing.

This one, they actually incorporated more views so that you can just get to what you need easier information wise.

And one of those views is a live maps view.

So if you have, let's say Android Auto, you can actually display the live view from Google Maps now in the cluster

and that frees up the screen to be used for anything else.

And if you're using Apple CarPlay, you can use Waze or Apple Maps.

You can't actually use Google Maps through Apple CarPlay because those two companies, they don't like to play nice.

So that's the only downside.

I got to tell you real quick and I don't mean to interrupt, but when I was watching the video and you were walking it through the features,

that is one of the most sellable features in my opinion.

I think one of the most frustrating things that we have in all of these modern cars is I use CarPlay.

I use Apple Maps all the time.

It doesn't matter what like what map I'm using a map all the time, especially in L.A.

It's not even about do I know how to get where I'm going.

It's about how long is it going to take and am I going to run into an issue, right?

Is there some traffic jam or something?

It's just like now I just use Maps like all the time and in almost every single vehicle I go into get into,

I can't change my radio presets.

Like I can't see what's like I can hit the button on the steering wheel,

but it's like, what song is this or who's playing it or what's playing on another?

You know, like you can't access the audio system at all when it's doing that.

There's very, very few cars that have some sort of like split screen to allow you to do that.

But now, I don't know, that is such just for me that is such a huge selling point having the

Apple Maps screen or whatever map in front of you and then take your main infotainment system

and put it back to your audio system.

It's the sort of little little thing that actually makes a huge difference day to day to day.

And I think, you know, we're starting to see this on more and more cars,

whether kind of the whole Apple or and or Google integration is getting better.

But for me, I think what Toyota has always been really good at.

And I have a Grand Highlander parked outside the house at the moment,

which we're which we're big fans of, I think more than any other manufacturer.

They just go through exactly what their customers want.

It's almost like a checklist.

They're very good at understanding their customers, what they need, what families need.

And then they almost go down a checkbox and the Grand Highlander and the RAV,

for examples of this, that, you know, the coolest thing in the world,

not the, you know, the quality is not incredible.

It doesn't do anything that you think is extraordinary,

but it's just very good at getting those details right.

Tons of PowerPoints, big storage, big, you know, cup holders,

all of that like family, American family stuff, they're really good at.

And then you layer in their brand reputation for reliability and everything else.

And it's easy to understand why they sell so many.

Yeah, there's there's one more feature that I have to make sure that we shout it out

because I think that they're, this is actually the only vehicle that does this currently

outside of, I believe the Model Y, maybe,

but it has a standard integrated dash cam,

which is one of the features that people want the most.

And you see people going out and buying on Amazon or Timu or whatever,

those dash cams and then running wires all over the dashboard and things like that.

And this just takes having to do that away and gives you some peace of mind.

So big kudos to Toyota for including that,

because that's not the cheapest feature to include in a vehicle.

It's probably the example of what I'm talking about, Brian, isn't it?

They're just that they're very good at that kind of customer clinic.

And it kind of means, and I think we're getting getting on the comparison,

but you rarely get into a Toyota and think, oh, this is,

you know, this is a new paradigm.

This is, you know, I hate the expression with game changing or whatever.

Yeah. You know, you never really get in the, oh, wow, this is reinventing the car.

But what they do is, and it is this whole Japanese Kaizen concept

that you kind of iterate and iterate and iterate.

And it means they don't tend to make big steps.

And a lot of people are like criticising the EVs and stuff,

because when there's a big seismic change, they're the kind of the philosophy struggles with that.

But, you know, when you look at things like Grand Highland, you know, now RA4,

it's easy to see what they've done is to take the existing car, take the market,

take all the market research and shove it all into the sausage machine.

And what pops out is a, you know, competent, sensible vehicle.

And that's their brand, really.

Yeah.

OK, so what else?

Doesn't mean it's the best, though.

Doesn't mean it's the best, but so better than before.

Since it wasn't replatformed, it still has still down on space a little bit,

especially in the backseat to competitors.

So if you're doing things like car seats or if you have tall passengers,

you're probably going to struggle a bit more than you would in, say, the CRV,

which is gigantic inside.

And as Alistair alluded to, the interior quality probably doesn't

quite live up to the rest of the segment.

It's a bit.

Not what's the word I'm looking for?

It's all very practical, you know, it's very much

function over form in there.

And we should also mention that the vehicle that we had from Toyota was actually an XLE.

So it wasn't unlimited, but we were able to get into the limited on the test drive

and our testing reported back that the limited in terms of materials quality,

in terms of like general overall look and feel is still a bit behind what you're

looking at from both the Honda and the Kia.

OK. Oh, and also the front seats.

Not the most comfortable, especially after like two hours.

Yeah, I was going to say, if if Reese drove it back, at least he got an idea

of what I don't know, roughly six hours was going to be in that thing, right?

From. Yeah, he said he said his back hurt.

But he said the fuel economy was really impressive, because he was, you know,

the the speed limit in Arizona is higher, so he was moving.

OK. And he still got 40 MPG on the way back.

So yeah, that's awfully impressive for a car.

Impressive. Yeah.

And I was like, Toyota's really nailed the nailed the hybrid thing over the years.

And yeah, there's little things.

I had a good look around at the track on Monday and a drive of it.

And yeah, there's certain things like the rear seat, the recline's not,

you know, it has one notch of recline.

There's there's little areas where you think, you know, they've cut a bit of cost here.

There's no power points in the trunk.

And it's but, you know, will it succeed?

Yes, because there's nothing really that it does that wrong.

Brian, as there it's, you know, it's a little bit noisier.

It's a little bit this, it's a little bit that.

But it's if you've got a RAV4, this is just going to feel like a nice update

of a RAV4 that, you know, I don't think there's anything here that's going to make you say.

And this again, is like, you know, it's a conservative car with a little C

that there's nothing here that's going to make you say, I've got to go and buy

something else, because if you like your RAV4, you're going to like this one a bit more.

Oh, most certainly.

If you like the current RAV4, which I don't, people really like this new RAV4.

And I think it'll actually give them, you know, I think especially compared to the Honda,

which is sort of like its most natural competitor, it makes a much more compelling

case for itself than it used to, especially with the CRV's technology struggles.

Should we, should we get into talking about the RAV?

Because we made the reason Reese was driving one back from Arizona.

And it was really because we wanted to have the first comparison test.

And, you know, Brian's done a fantastic 35 minute film on YouTube, comparing RAV4, CRV,

and then our current favorite, which is the Kia Sportage Hybrid.

So we were trying to get one back and then trying to get it all done through the

embargo when everybody else, you know, has their reviews.

And the only way we could do a proper job, because we couldn't ship it back in time,

was actually drive it from Arizona.

So that's what we did.

We got the RAV4, we got the CRV, we got the Kia Sportage Hybrid,

drove them all road, track, everything else to do the full test.

And, you know, there's a lot of us down there on Monday, poking around all three of them.

And, yeah, really, it's really interesting because, I mean, these are, there is no bigger.

I mean, the RAV4 is the biggest selling car in the world.

And when we look at Edmunds and all our site traffic, it is also the biggest car

on Edmunds as well.

I mean, the model wise had its moments in the last couple of years as the number one

seller in the world, but RAV4 is still number one.

And last time, what is in the U.S. about 450,000 a year, something in that range?

It's a lot of, it's a lot of RAV4.

Yeah, you don't want to screw it up.

That's for sure. All right.

Before we get into that test, let's just take a quick break and we'll be right back.

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OK, the three way test between these vehicles.

I'll bring it up on the screen here.

And yeah, let's walk us through it, Brian.

Yeah, so choosing the competitors was important.

CRV was a natural choice as the number two selling car and also as, you know,

Toyota and Honda are always locked in this sort of eternal battle.

The third car, we decided to just go with our favorite.

That's the Kia Sportage Hybrid.

The Kia Sportage Hybrid actually won an Edmunds top rated best SUV of the year

award back in twenty three and twenty four.

And the other cool thing about these three vehicles is there's some congruency

because all of them got updates for twenty six.

So the CRV is a refresh.

The Sportage Hybrid is a refresh and the RAV4 is a complete redesign.

And the other cool thing, too, is that since the RAV4 is hybrid only,

we were able to limit to the hybrids, which we actually think are the best buys

in the compact SUV segment.

We think generally speaking with a Mazda sized exception,

the hybrids are the ones to get out of all of those because the fuel economy

differences, the better value, having to fill up your tank less because it's got

more range, all that stuff really should lean you in favor of the hybrid.

And I believe in the case of all three of these,

the hybrid is also the better performing vehicle.

I mean, RAV4, they're all hybrids, so that doesn't really apply there.

But yeah, the Kia Sportage Hybrid is, I believe, almost two seconds

quicker to 60 than the gas version.

So you're getting kind of everything by getting these hybrids.

It was going to be a very tall task for the RAV4 to knock off the Kia

just because the Kia is going to hold an advantage in the value category,

which is really important, I think, for these sort of smaller family vehicles,

in part because it has that giant warranty.

So the Toyota and the Honda are against, you know, the Koreans, the Kia and Hyundai,

starting at a bit of a deficit.

So, but I think that the RAV4 acquitted itself pretty well.

There are things that we definitely liked about all three SUVs.

The nice thing is that you can kind of make a case to buy any of them.

But there's also means that you have different strengths and weaknesses

that should help you to make the right buying decision for you just based on

priorities. But we think that for for most people,

you'll still be the most happy with a Sportage hybrid.

OK, do you want to walk through some of the some of the things that stood out

between these? Like we're looking at, well, I mean, kind of looking at the Honda CRV

right now, this was your third place car.

Yeah, so we can roll, I guess, back to front.

The CRV is I mean, it's really nice to always the thing that I really like about

the fact that we do so many of these comparisons is that we have a much better

idea of where all the cars sort of lay out when we're done with them.

The CRV was refreshed for this year, but it doesn't feel like it.

I think it was one of the big problems.

So if you look at it right there, that's actually the biggest screen that you can

get on a CRV. It's nine inches, 10.5 inch standard screen on the RAV4,

12.3 inch standard screen on the Kia.

And if you look at that housing, the left side of it is actually not screen.

It's got about a one inch bezel around the whole thing.

So the actual usable space of the screen feels significantly smaller compared

to the other two. And then we also have to mention that if you're going to get

a CRV hybrid, if you don't buy the absolute top trim level,

you're also getting a downgraded infotainment system.

So the Honda experience without all their Google built in stuff is much worse.

Feels very much like 2016, 2017.

So if you want the good, you know, all the screen sizes have increased

to nine inches, but if you want the good infotainment system,

you have to end up spending, I believe this one was 43.8 on the sticker,

which also made it quite expensive. It's two grand more than the Kia.

What the CFE does really well is one interior quality.

So Honda has always done, not always, but I would say in the past decade or so,

done a really good job with touch points.

So everything that you're going to touch frequently, like knobs, volume knob,

even those are all finished in metal and they have like this very satisfying

kind of click to them.

So they basically paid really close attention to all the parts in the interior

that you're going to touch a lot and those feel quite good.

Now, they definitely cut costs in places.

There's definitely plastic if you look for it,

but that's the point is that you have to look for it.

So the interior quality of the Honda stood out, especially against the RAV4.

And it's also by far the best three, best of the three to drive.

It's handling and dynamics are like a cut above, especially at steering.

And that power chain is quite responsive, even if it's not the quickest one.

So if it's really important to you how it drives,

then the CRV would be the choice.

OK, good seats, too.

I think the other thing for me about looking around all these cars and

yeah, Brian's right, CRV's got lots of room.

But all of them actually are pretty big.

The other one that's actually got tons of room is the Volkswagen Tiguan,

which I personally think is a bit sort of a slips under the radar,

but is a really good car in this class.

Is the Tiguan hybrid?

Pardon? Is the Tiguan hybrid?

No, no, I think that's part of what counts against it.

But one of the things in this what you might call the mainstream SUV class

is that they all got big and, you know, I'm I'm six four.

So like interior space is a big deal for me.

But if you even if you're like six foot with a six foot teenager or something,

you know, this starts to make a huge difference.

And what's interesting is the mainstream class has now got bigger

and the Lux cars really haven't interior room in the X3 that Edmunds owns.

BMW X3 is not not that great.

You know, I had a Audi SQ5 last week.

Again, rear space, not good.

Mechanies as old as the hills and that's tiny.

Mechani V, also too small in the back.

But these mainstream, you know, the sort of heartland cars of America,

the RAV4, the CRV, they're actually big family vehicles now.

And I think that's terrific.

You know, you've got lots of space if you and it's not just about having,

you know, teenagers or being tall yourself.

It's also about, you know, if you're putting car seats in the back

and we talked about this before, you put a car seat in and then the rear leg

room is diminished.

And so now you've got space for car seats and you're still comfortable in the front

and the kids aren't kicking you every six seconds.

And again, if you're living with these vehicles day by day,

that makes a massive difference.

Yeah. Okay.

Do you want to go to number two on the list?

Yeah. So RAV4 finishes second, jumps the CRV when it comes to overall rating.

So this was a front wheel drive version that we had.

And it actually ended up being quicker than both of the all

both the other cars we had.

They were both all wheel drive.

When we get the all wheel drive RAV4 in, we do think it will be maybe a touch

quicker, but at Toyota's all wheel drive system in this vehicle, they're only

adding like a tiny electric motor to the rear axle and only adds about 10 horsepower.

So it'll go down maybe a tenth, but seven four to 60 for a compact SUV is still

plenty of juice.

We really like the technology upgrades.

We really liked that, you know, it's not as

boring looking as it was before.

And again, the same sort of caveat supply.

When you have a rear facing car seat in, it's more snug in the RAV4 than the other two.

The other two have about, I would say, three inches of extra leg room in the rear.

So I was able to fit in that front seat in front of a rear facing car seat,

but just kind of barely.

Like if I was any taller, I would have trouble.

I'm just under six feet.

So you can kind of work the space around, but not quite as much.

And also the lower latch anchors are a bit tougher to access in the Toyota,

which is kind of a weird discovery.

I thought that that was something that they might improve in this one.

And if you look at the cargo area of the RAV4,

it is down a touch, I think, on like raw space on paper.

But in practice, we liked it a lot because the shape of it is very kind of

rectangular, as you can tell from that opening.

And when something is shaped like a box, it's just easier to kind of fill it up

with, you know, like shape objects.

So if you have luggage and stuff, it actually ends up fitting better in the RAV4

than the CRV.

The CRV has some more like rear wheel well intrusion.

That kind of packs the amount of space that's usable.

So we would like the RAV4 cargo area, but I think, yeah, from driving it,

it's noticeably noisier inside than the other two.

You get a lot more wind noise, especially off the A-pillar,

and you get a lot more tire noise too.

And because of Toyota has sort of tunes that are hybrids,

the engine likes to kick in somewhat under load, and it does so quite noisily.

So it usually lands in around like 2,500 RPM.

So if you're on the accelerator, it's going to try to sit with the gas,

or sit with the electric motor as long as it can for efficiency.

And then the gas motor kicks hard enough for like, you know, it's pretty loud

when it does and just kind of speaks to a bit of less refined experience

for both driver and passengers in the Toyota than in the other two.

I don't think Toyota has changed that.

I, you know, like my mom has a RAV4, it's a few years old.

Yeah, when the engine kicks in, it's noticeable.

It's a little bit of road noise, you know, but she's just running around town

and, you know, nothing on big trips.

I just think the other cars got a little better.

You know, I don't think I don't think like I'm saying like,

I don't think this is any louder, my guess, or any louder than the previous

gen RAV4. I just think the other cars got a little better, right?

I don't think I think that's true because things like double glazing.

I remember when the Mercedes S class brought that in, I think in the

in the probably in the 90s or the 80s, that was I remember it being a big deal.

And now everybody has this sort of laminated glass.

And it's, you know, I'm not trying to be an apologist for the car industry,

but what is striking is just everybody's expectation has just risen so much.

There's now so much technology in these cars for like infotainment.

There's so much safety technology, things like, you know, automatic breaking,

automatic light lane, keeping you in the right lane at the right time.

All about now is expected.

We want more space because we've all got bigger and, you know, and so it's

all of these things add up.

And then we're sitting and I go, oh, the plastics are a bit crap, aren't they?

So, you know, it's difficult because expectations have gone up and up and up.

And at the same time, people are saying, well, these things are getting

more and more unaffordable.

So I need all of this technology, all of this space, all of this kit for 40 grand

or 35 grand and it's it's getting a tougher and tougher ask.

And that's why I think we've talked about this before.

We're like, where are you going to cut some of the costs?

Where are you going to save some money?

And we were saying before on things like, oh, I'm going with the cheapest plastic

steering wheel, probably a bad idea, because that's the one thing you interact

with all the time.

But in Toyota's case, if they're going, hey, maybe we're going with, you know,

the single glazing front windshield instead of something out of the Lexus,

which is probably a half inch thick like it's bulletproof because you can't hear

anything, right? You know, maybe they're going, maybe that's the way to save money

and then put that money into the infotainment system or something like that.

Right. And what's striking about it is, you know, we're always you sit in the

industry, well, if you don't have, let's say, like a soft, you know,

like the soft touch finish on top of the dashboard, you know, when you prod it

and it has a little bit of giving it, well, that's more expensive to do.

And I remember somebody from the Volkswagen group saying it's about 20 to 30

euros at the time, 30, 40 bucks, more expensive to have a soft touch finish

than to have like a hard plastic that rattles when you thump it.

And you're like, well, it's only 20 bucks on a car that costs 200, you know,

or costs 40, I'm going to say that again.

It's only 200 bucks on a car that costs, you know, 40 grand or whatever, or 20

bucks. And then, you know, you think, well, hang on a minute, you're selling

400,000 of these. So even if they can save $2 on a piece of plastic, you're

selling 400,000 plus a year in the U.S. And that's just the U.S.

So every time you save $2, that's 800,000 bucks just in that little

piece of plastic. Yeah, it's kind of the economics of it is extraordinary.

And that's why, you know, as you go through the car, you're like, why

haven't they lined the door pocket? Well, that's five bucks.

So that's $2 million. It's crazy.

You know, what's interesting, we'll get to the we'll get to the last car.

But what's interesting is, is you look at some of the car companies, like

the super high end cars, whether it be like a Rolls-Royce or or Bentley,

where, you know, they're going, hey, you just you can pay four or five

hundred, six hundred a thousand for a car or a high end super car.

And you go, that must be the most advanced car out there because it's so

expensive. But I think the difficult part is doing a RAV4, going,

how do we put in everything we need to put into that car and make it

$38,000, right? Or or Sportage or CRV, like I think in theory, that's

probably more complex because they're going, how do we get all of these

features and the right touch points and the right feel and the right seats

and go, you know, you know, we're not, you know, we're not Bugatti.

We can't just like do whatever we want, find the finest materials on earth

and just put it in there or just like make the most comfortable this or like,

you know, Rolls-Royce, you know, Magic Carpet Ride is like, how do we,

how do we make a nice ride in a car that's going to be $38,000, which, by the

way, is probably the cost of the brakes on on on on half the cars of those

those expensive cars, right?

So it's like the conversation, Matt,

you and I are having a couple of weeks to go about Tesla and this Model Y

standard and they've stripped away so much cost.

Yes. Wow.

Like you've taken away stuff that feels so fundamental to your brand,

like the panoramic roof and how much you actually saving.

And I saw an analysis by a third party trying to figure out as, you know,

item by item, how much Tesla was saving.

But then and you think, well, that's nuts.

But then you do do the maths and say, well, they're building, you know,

hundreds of thousands of these things and it starts to make sense.

It's it's really difficult.

You're right. I mean, at the top end of the market,

the technology is now so democratized.

You're not really buying technology.

What you're buying is what you describe.

It's that, you know, the finest cow in the world that's been massaged since

birth and all the rest of it.

That's the that's where the kind of added value is at the top end of the market.

Quite frankly, the high end cars, their infotainment systems suck.

You know, or everybody uses car play.

So it's like, well, yeah.

So they're like, ah, that's fine.

We'll just give you and that's nice.

We should talk about the key before we forget about it because it's

our favorite. That was one thing.

And Brian, you were much closer than I was.

But just sitting in the in the car at the test track on Monday,

when we were filming some of this stuff, that was a car that I sat in and thought,

actually, you know, this is a hybrid.

It's got this, it's got that.

It's got all this kid.

It's got a mega warranty.

And you do look at that car and think, well, it's pretty impressive to do this for,

you know, the 40,000 bucks or so that it that it costs and it's cheaper than the others.

I did sit in that car and think, have they really done this for the money?

So one thing to note is that we're not entirely sure how much cheaper it will be

than the Toyota RAV4 Limited wound up being.

Toyota actually hasn't released pricing yet for the RAV4.

They say that's going to come sometime next month.

I think on the high end, you're probably looking at those plug-in models,

pushing 50 grand now, especially like the GR versions.

If I had to guesstimate for the one that we had in,

it's probably between 37 and 38 for a front drive, one grade up.

They say it's going to start in the low 30s, but low 30s plus destination

kind of puts you more mid 30s.

So we'll see.

But for sure, this Kia Sportage Hybrid presented just incredible value for

41.7, which is less than the 43.8 you're paying for the CR-V.

It has a much better interior, feels a lot more modern, big screens.

That storage bin right in front of the center console is also a big plus

for this vehicle. The cup holders will actually fold away and just give you

a bigger storage space.

And I think to Alistair's point, when you sit in it, it feels and this is

something that, you know, endemic to Kia's these days on the top end.

It's like you sit in it and you're like,

this feels like it costs more than I paid for it.

And that's a really nice thing to feel whenever you're climbing into your car.

The backseat has like two or three recline settings, very comfortable,

very roomy, that panoramic sunroof.

It's also another option that's not offered on the CR-V.

So not getting that on the Honda.

And then just in the back there is, I don't know if you can tell from that

picture, there's all these little touches that make things very usable.

So, for example, the USB ports for the backseat passengers are located in the seat

backs, so they're not like down by the ground.

So you're not running cables all over your floor.

And in the cargo area, too, it's also got releases for the backseat.

So you can actually drop the seats without having to walk around or like,

you know, fling your body into the cargo area, which is nice.

It's also got a two-tier cargo floor, so it has the most cargo space when it has

the lower position.

And if you need a flat floor, then you just put it back in the upper position.

It's just very thoughtfully designed.

The phone holder up here, too, in the back of the headrest, was interesting.

Like if you plug it in in the back of the seat and then you can put your phone

up there, I don't know.

It's like, I don't know that you can watch your phone while it's up there,

because I think it kind of blocks it.

Yeah, it kind of blocks it like that.

But I think.

But you can put it up there and keep the cables off the floor and out of your

lap and stuff, right?

Or you can hang a bag or, you know, a coat or, you know, there's different

things you can you can do with it.

It's it's interesting, like this is quite a statement.

But we have a we have a BMW X3 that we, you know, we purchased and I actually

think the tactile feel of the Kia is actually better.

You know, some of the BMW plastics were a bit hit and miss.

So bits by the BMW, they're really good.

Like some of the, you know, the the engine refinement and the seats.

There's bits that are you do feel like this is a real power car.

Yeah.

But there's also bits inside where you got this feels a bit this feels a bit low

rent and that that Kia, they're very good at making sure all the bits that you

touch, all those little, you know, all those little elements, all those little

bits of design like the, you know, USB seaports in the in the in the seat and

everything else, all those little bits of design that kind of make you feel that,

you know, you've got some you've got some value.

And, you know, the nice thing is as well, you know, it doesn't sell in quite

the numbers of the RAV4 or the CRV, but, you know, Kia and Hyundai, because

the Tucson is effectively the same car, you know, they they are selling people

are caught onto this idea, you know, nice vehicles, great warranty, sensible

pricing and it sells, you know, who knew.

And then how's the gas mileage between the three?

It's probably tough to beat the Toyota because Toyota knows how to do

hybrids better than anybody at this point.

That's the catch of it.

So there is a version of the Sportage Hybrid that gets 42, but that's the

front wheel drive base version only.

The all wheel drive version that we had here had 35 MPG.

So you're looking at 44.

These are the EPA estimates, 44 for the Toyota on the front wheel drive, 42

for all wheel drive, the CRV is 37 and the Sportage Hybrid is 35.

So that's kind of the big strike or big weakness for the Kia is that it's

going to not give you the same fuel economy.

But I think that we calculated it out and like if you're looking at

current average national fuel prices, the Delta and cost between driving

the Toyota for 15,000 miles a year versus the Kia is about 250 bucks.

So what I pay $250 a year to live in a much better interior, I probably would.

We're not looking at like, you know, a huge Delta in value there.

We're talking about fuel economy in terms of real dollar savings.

So yes, it's true that the Toyota is going to give you the best efficiency,

but I like to look at it as like, you know, would I pay an extra 80 cents a

day for a year to live in the Kia rather than that Toyota?

Yeah, probably I would.

It's a pint a week.

OK, yeah, I guess it depends on where you live.

It depends on how much your beer is, but it feels like it roughly a pint a week.

Yeah, right.

And I don't know, that's a tough, that's a tough value proposition.

That is a tough value.

When you look at it that way, it is kind of tough.

It's a Starbucks a week.

I tell you, all three of them are are going to be good vehicles to get.

And I know you really have to get down and nitpick some of the the fine

items, which is you guys did so well to make a decision like this,

because they're all really good.

You know, you kind of have to spend some time in the Kia and all of them,

the Kia and the RAV4, especially because the RAV4, knowing how much I

use me personally, use maps while I'm driving, having it on a separate screen

is a feature like that might be enough for me.

I know that Kia's got a much better warranty.

But if I was leasing the vehicle, you know, then you're kind of leasing it

for the for the length of the warranty anyway, give or take, right?

So if you were buying it for sure, I would say, you know, go for the big warranty.

But if you're leasing it, you know, the lease is as good as the warranty is, you know?

I think that was sort of what we came away with, too, is that if you have

your heart set on one of these three SUVs, there's no need for us to talk

you out of it because you're going to probably like it.

Like even on the low end, a 7.5 score from us, that's the overall score for the CRV.

That might not sound like a great score.

But in our in our rubric, that still qualifies it as very good.

Most of its competitors are actually going to fall in the sixes or even the low sixes.

So we really like the CRV.

And I hope that sort of came through in the piece is that, you know, all of these

are still probably at the top end of the top three or four vehicles you should look at.

If you're looking for a compact SUV, it just so happens that, you know,

the Kia's value proposition, how nice it is inside

the standard technology up and down the range, it's just very hard to ignore.

And again, kudos to that company.

Kia, Hyundai, Genesis, they just continue to impress year over year.

They just they keep getting it done.

And I think the sales are showing it.

It is.

And, you know, they they they helped, I think that business model is a little bit

different, which allows them to look more long term.

But they've been, you know, if you look at the history of that company,

they've been very good at growing their market share in an economic downturn.

You know, they were very good in 2008.

They were very good in the pandemic.

You know, they keep keep investing.

People look for that value proposition.

Now people look at them and say, well, I'm not just buying this because it's cheap.

You know, I think there's a period where we looked at Hyundai and Kia and said,

I could get a Honda, but this is, you know, significantly cheaper.

Yeah, it still shows up a little bit cheaper.

But I think now you're you're buying it on the product.

You're not buying it on the value.

And that's a big shift for those brands.

You know, people I don't think look at a Hyundai and Kia now and say,

oh, I'm buying it as a as a cut price alternative.

I'm buying it because it's a great product that happens to be value.

Yeah. OK.

I think that's going to wrap it up for today's or anything else.

You want to any any final thoughts on that test or what's coming up on on Edmunds?

No, I check out Brian's other excellent video.

Not that there's lots of excellent Brian on.

You can't you can't you can have a whole weekend.

You could have a water.

What do you call it when you sit in with?

Binge. You can binge.

You could binge watch Brian all weekend on YouTube.

But they're lucid and they they're lucid in the Rivian.

We were going to get into that, but we're going to run out of time.

So there's lots of lots of Brian on the YouTube channel.

The thought of binge watching myself is very concerning.

Yeah, it's like narcissistic for a start.

But yeah, I would advise everyone to not do that.

Maybe spread them out throughout the week.

All right. So, yeah, listen, on that note, I appreciate it, guys.

And looking forward to to more of Brian videos, more you drags videos,

more fancy swag, because you guys got.

You drag shirts and stuff available.

Yeah, yeah, you got to have that's right.

If you go on the go on the YouTube channel, the merch store,

you can you can specify all sorts of you you drag stuff.

You know, it is we don't get the testing team jacket unless you're on the team.

No, that's true.

But you can buy the you drags T shirt.

You can buy the you can buy the you drags T shirt.

Yeah, we keep trying to bring the cost down and down.

The problem is we you kind of beholden to YouTube's prices.

So yeah, is what it is.

Maybe we should do a test team jacket giveaway or something.

Yeah, we could do that.

All right, guys, thanks so much for listening and we'll see you next week.

Until then, keep the air in the spare and the bag in the wheel.

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CarCast+Edmunds - New Toyota RAV4 is significantly improved but is it enough to beat the top competitors?

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