The Chevrolet Corvette is a sports car made by Chevrolet. It’s built to be fun to drive and fast, and it has been around for a long time. People talk about it a lot because different versions over the years have different features and performance.
Term
air cool rally
“Air-cooled” means the engine uses air to stay cool, not coolant flowing through the engine. This rally is themed around that kind of Porsche.
Climate control is the system that automatically keeps the cabin at a set temperature. “Zero climate control” means the car doesn’t really manage cabin temperature for you, so it stays cold.
A Porsche 993 is a specific older 911 generation. Here, the speaker says the front of one got hit so hard with grit that it looked like it was sandblasted.
“Sandblasted” is a descriptive way to say the car’s paint and surfaces were aggressively abraded by loose grit. In driving events, leftover gravel or debris can be thrown up by tires and quickly strip paint from leading edges and front bodywork.
Leftover gravel from winter implies debris remained on the route or surface after seasonal weather. That kind of grit can be kicked up by tires during an event, causing rapid paint loss and damage to front-end surfaces.
The contact patch is the part of the tire that touches the ground. More grip usually means the tire is pressing down more effectively, and on a rough road that can stir up rocks.
Low light conditions are basically nighttime or near-night driving. The host is saying that windshield damage matters more then, because headlights from other cars can glare and make it harder to see.
Headlight glare happens when bright beams from oncoming cars scatter in the driver’s eyes or reflect off surfaces. Here, the host ties glare to windshield pitting, which breaks up light and makes the scene harder to read at eye level.
“Little pits” are tiny dents/holes in the windshield from things like rocks. They can make headlights and street lights look blurry or harsh, which hurts night visibility.
The Geo Prism is a small, everyday car that was sold under the Geo name. It’s generally known for being practical rather than sporty. In the podcast, it’s mentioned because the name connects to a “prism” idea.
This is a race that lasts an entire day—24 hours—on the Nürburgring track in Germany. Because it’s so long, the cars have to stay fast and reliable for the whole time, not just for a few laps.
“Luft” sounds like shorthand for an enthusiast Porsche meet. The point is that the organizer previously helped coordinate where cars would be parked together.
A “Targa event” is a Porsche-focused driving event where cars are organized for routes and parking/show moments. Here, they’re talking about arranging where people’s cars will be placed.
A factory team is the automaker’s own official racing team. If a company doesn’t run a factory team, it may rely more on customers or other teams instead.
Car
Porsche 963
The Porsche 963 is Porsche’s purpose-built race car for endurance events like Le Mans. Here, the hosts mention it because a driver moving to it can hint at what Porsche is prioritizing.
A livery is the car’s race paint and decals—its look. The hosts are saying Porsche may use different looks at events to signal plans before they officially announce them.
Penske is a well-known racing organization that fields cars and manages teams. The hosts are talking about whether a future race effort could be run by Penske instead of Porsche’s usual setup.
The Ford Mustang is a performance car from Ford. It’s known for being sporty and powerful, and it has been made in many versions over the years. People often bring it up when talking about racing and cars built for speed.
A retainer is money paid to keep someone tied to a deal. Here it means the driver is still under contract even if they’re not actively racing for that team at the moment.
“Loaning” a driver out means letting them race or work with another team for a while. The hosts are basically asking why that would happen if the driver is still contractually tied to Porsche.
Term
GCP
GCP is an internal Porsche racing program label. The idea here is that Porsche has a customer-focused racing effort, and they wouldn’t want a driver’s outside activities to interfere with it.
Concept
protect Porsche
They’re saying Porsche might be keeping things controlled so important racing know-how doesn’t end up helping a rival. Even if nobody talks about “secrets,” people can learn patterns and methods that carry over.
“Set the car up” means tuning the race car for the track. It’s about adjusting details so the car handles well and the driver can go faster with confidence.
In racing, “gather data” means recording performance info from the car while it’s running. Teams use it to figure out what’s going wrong or what to change to make the car faster.
The “chassis” is the main frame/structure of the race car. It affects how the car handles, so if two teams use similar chassis designs or builders, the cars may feel more alike.
A “learning curve” is how long it takes to get used to a new race car. If the team is already familiar with similar cars and people, they can improve faster.
Factory racing is when the car brand itself runs the competition program. It’s not just hobby racing—there’s a plan to learn things from the races and then decide what to do next.
A prototype car is a special race car built to try out new ideas. The point is to learn from it, and then move on once they’ve gotten the information they need.
A drivers championship is like a season-long scoring race for individual drivers. The hosts are saying Porsche’s drivers have already won titles, but Le Mans is still the standout goal.
A team championship is a season-long competition where teams earn points based on race results. The hosts are saying Porsche’s teams and drivers have already done well, but Le Mans is still the big missing piece.
Brumos is a racing team that’s closely tied to Porsche racing. The hosts are talking about them showing up again and using their recognizable team colors.
“Comps” means comparing your car to similar ones that are being sold. The host is saying that if you’re not planning to sell, you don’t really need to watch those comparisons.
“Market drying up” means fewer people are buying, so cars don’t sell as quickly. Even if cars are for sale, owners may hold onto them instead of moving them.
The Ferrari F40 is a very rare, high-performance supercar made by Ferrari. It’s famous partly because only a limited number were built. The podcast brings it up in the context of production numbers, which helps explain its rarity.
Concept
consignment shop
A consignment shop is a place that sells your car for you and keeps a percentage if it sells. The hosts are saying these special Porsches often don’t end up there.
Concept
car auction site
A car auction site is where cars get sold to the highest bidder. The hosts are saying these Porsches usually don’t go through that kind of public bidding process.
Concept
word of mouth situation
“Word of mouth” means people find buyers through friends and personal contacts. The hosts are saying that’s how many GT3/RS cars are sold, so fewer show up publicly.
“Market value” means what people are actually paying for a car at this moment. The point here is that if prices rise, the next car you want can cost more than you expected.
Concept
reallocate those funds
They mean selling one car and using the money to buy something else. Here, it’s about people shifting their budget to a different brand or newer model when prices rise.
In this context, “super charged” doesn’t mean a new engine part. It means the prices or interest are ramping up quickly.
Term
stockpile has been dried up
“Dried up stockpile” is a market term meaning the supply of a particular used car has been exhausted. When a model is out of production for a long time, fewer cars remain available, which can push prices up and make “cheap” examples harder to find.
Term
accident owners
They’re talking about who ends up owning the car. The idea is that fewer “random” owners have them now, and more people who really know what they’re buying do.
The Porsche 911 GT3 is a special version of the 911 made for driving hard. People want it because it’s built to feel more like a race car than a normal 911.
They’re talking about how some rare cars are difficult to find, even if someone has a lot of money. Getting one often depends on who you know and how quickly you can act, not just paying the price.
Term
refinement and maturation
They mean newer versions of the car feel more polished and better sorted. It’s like the design got improved and “figured out” over time.
“Visceral experience” means the car’s feel hits you in a very immediate, emotional way—like how it sounds and responds. It’s more about how it makes you react than about specs.
Air-cooled means the engine is cooled mainly by air flowing over it, not by coolant running through a radiator. It’s a different approach than most modern cars use.
Water-cooled means the engine uses liquid coolant to move heat to a radiator. It’s the common system in most modern cars.
Concept
hits 25 years old
The host is pointing to a common enthusiast/collector timeline: once a car reaches roughly the 25–27 year mark, it often starts shifting into “vintage” status in the public mind and in collector pricing. This is presented as a general pattern across car brands, not just Porsche.
Nitrous is a system that adds nitrous oxide to the engine. It gives the car a temporary power boost, kind of like a short “extra push.”
Concept
price spike after a "peak" age milestone
They’re talking about how car prices can jump at certain ages. Once more people start treating the car like a collectible, the demand (and price) can rise again.
The “25-year rule” is a legal cutoff where older cars may get easier treatment to own or import. When that happens, more people can buy them, which can push prices up.
Concept
classic/collector-market awareness driving demand
They’re explaining that when more people hear about a car, more people want it. If the supply doesn’t change, that can make prices go up.
Term
Fortune 500
“Fortune 500” is a widely recognized ranking of the largest U.S. companies by revenue. The hosts use it as an analogy for mainstream visibility—suggesting Porsche is “everywhere” in the way that Fortune 500 coverage is.
A V12 is an engine with 12 cylinders. It’s known for a distinctive sound and smooth power delivery, which is why the hosts say it makes the car feel special.
“Gated” refers to a manual transmission shifter that moves through a defined gate pattern in the console, rather than a looser or electronic selector feel. The hosts are pointing out that the tactile, mechanical feel of a gated manual is part of the overall experience.
“Lambo doors” are doors that open upward like a scissor motion. People associate that look with Lamborghini, and it adds a flashy, special feel when you use the car.
“Bone stock” means the car is basically how it left the factory, with no big modifications. They’re saying you can find Porsche cars in every condition, from stock to heavily changed.
“Poverty spec” is slang for a car that has fewer options and features than the nicer versions. The hosts are pointing out that even the “basic” ones can still be extremely expensive.
“Rising tide” means prices in one classic-car group can pull up prices in other groups too. If demand is strong for certain cars, other cars often get more expensive as well.
Deferred maintenance means the car didn’t get its planned upkeep on time. If you buy it like that, you may have to pay later for repairs that were delayed.
Suspension is the system that connects the car to its wheels and controls ride quality and handling. When enthusiasts talk about “doing whatever you want to do suspension,” they usually mean upgrades like springs, dampers, and alignment changes to improve how the car corners and rides.
A track experience is a supervised driving session on a race track. You learn how the car behaves when you push it, with an instructor helping you stay safe.
“78 tenths” is a way of saying you’re driving pretty close to the car’s limit—like about 78% of what it can do. It’s a shorthand for “this is fast and you’re right near the edge.”
This is a Porsche Cayman S, a smaller Porsche with the engine placed closer to the middle. They’re saying that with upgrades and tuning, it can feel way more aggressive and capable than you’d expect.
Bushings are small rubbery parts that let suspension components move. Polyurethane is stiffer than rubber, so the car responds more quickly when you turn.
Monoballs are upgraded suspension joints that let the suspension move with less “squish.” That makes the car feel more direct, but it can be less comfortable and may wear faster.
Downpipes are part of the exhaust system that connect the turbo to the rest of the exhaust. Swapping them can help the engine breathe better and make more power.
Factory exhaust is the stock exhaust that came with the car. They’re saying you don’t necessarily have to replace everything to get a performance improvement.
“Cats” are catalytic converters—parts that clean up exhaust fumes. If you replace them, the exhaust can flow a bit better, which can make the car feel and sound less restricted.
“Mid engine” means the engine sits near the middle of the car instead of the front or the back. That can help the car feel more balanced when you turn.
“Wide body” means the car’s fenders are wider, which lets it run wider tires. The host is talking about how Porsche’s wide-body look showed up later in the 911 lineup.
Sports Chrono is a Porsche option that adds extra performance features and driving modes. The speaker cares whether the car has it because it affects how the car behaves.
Sports exhaust is an upgraded exhaust option that’s meant to change the sound (and sometimes the flow) compared to the standard setup. The speaker is saying they prefer the factory version.
Here, “valve” means a mechanism in the exhaust that can open or close to change how the exhaust sounds and breathes. The speaker wants to keep the factory one.
Lowering springs make the car sit closer to the ground. That can look better and feel more planted, but it may ride a bit firmer and you’ll have less clearance over bumps.
“Cat delete” removes the catalytic converter. That can make the exhaust sound different and may be illegal in some places because it affects emissions.
“Poverty turbo” is a nickname for trying to get turbo-like performance without buying the most expensive turbo version. People do it by tuning the car and adding parts so it feels closer to the higher-end model.
EPA is a U.S. government agency that tests and regulates how cars are measured for things like emissions and efficiency. The point here is that official numbers don’t always match what people get when they tune or drive the car.
Here “digital” means the RPM gauge is shown on a screen instead of using a needle and dial. It’s a different look and feel while driving.
Term
inlets
Inlets are openings/ducts that feed air into a system—often for cooling or for supplying air to turbochargers and intercoolers. Here, they’re talking about how the Turbo S’s inlet design can be used without needing major changes when adapting or building something based on the same underlying 911 “shell.”
“Shell” here means the main body structure the car is built on. They’re saying multiple 911 versions share that same basic platform, so parts and bodywork can be similar.
RWB is a Porsche customization brand that’s famous for making 911s wider and more aggressive-looking. They’re talking about using an RWB-style Turbo S approach and what parts you can reuse.
Brand
Zefriel's version
“Zefriel’s version” sounds like another person’s take on the same kind of Porsche build. They’re basically saying their setup is similar to what someone else has done.
Ventilated seats have built-in airflow to help keep you cooler. The host is saying they really care about having them, even if other parts of the car are ideal.
“Carbon buckets” are special racing-style seats made from carbon fiber. They’re lighter and more supportive than normal seats, but they’re not always included on the cars people shop for.
“Sofa seats” is a joking way to describe comfortable, cushier seats that don’t hold you as tightly as race-style bucket seats. The host is saying GT3s often don’t come with the track seats people want.
“18-way seats” means the seat can be adjusted in lots of different ways using power controls. More adjustments can help you get comfortable, but it doesn’t automatically mean it’s the sportiest seat.
“Comfort seats” are the softer, more relaxed seats compared with sport seats. They’re usually easier to live with day to day, but they don’t hold you as tightly in corners.
“RS design wheels” refers to Porsche’s RS-style wheel design, typically associated with the look of RS models. The important detail here is that the same overall RS aesthetic changes across 991.2 vs 992 fitment, including how concave and wide the wheel is.
Term
driver miles
“Driver miles” means the car was driven by a person, not just moved around. People like it because it can suggest the car wasn’t used in a bunch of stop-and-go or short-trip situations.
“NA” means naturally aspirated—no turbocharger or supercharger. The host is saying that this naturally aspirated setup is part of why certain Porsche 911s are getting more sought-after.
Forced induction means adding a turbo or supercharger to cram more air into the engine. The host is basically saying that after this era, Porsche moved toward that turbo-style approach.
“7 speeds” means the car has a transmission with seven gear ratios. More gears can help the engine feel smoother and stay in the right power band more often.
“Air-cooled” means the engine is cooled by air flowing over it, not by coolant running through the engine. The host is saying some people don’t want that style, even if they still want a classic driving experience.
A “catastrophic issue” means a really serious problem that could cause big damage. The host is saying they haven’t heard about major, scary engine failures on these cars.
Aluminum is a lighter metal than steel. Using more aluminum in the car’s structure helps the car weigh less, which can make it feel quicker and more efficient.
Tuning usually means changing the car’s settings (often computer settings) so it drives differently. They’re talking about whether that can add extra power or improve steering feel.
Electric steering uses a motor to help you turn the wheel, instead of relying on fluid pressure. They’re debating whether you can “tune” it for extra benefit, and whether that’s even a real thing.
The “turbo situation” means the engine is turbocharged. That usually changes how the car makes power compared to a non-turbo (naturally aspirated) engine.
Term
NA
NA stands for naturally aspirated. It means the engine isn’t using a turbo or supercharger to force air in.
The host is talking about the special “sound” people associate with the 911 GT3. They’re saying an exhaust setup can make a different 911 sound a lot closer to that GT3-style noise.
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We are here to bring you everything and anything surrounding Porsche.
I'm Mike. I'm Aaron. And this is P-Car Talk.
Welcome to another episode of P-Car Talk. I'm Mike. And I'm Aaron.
Let's thank our people. Let's do it. Just kidding.
I've got Leslie and Chris as Steve J, Ken as
Richard P, Sean H and Nick F.
Thank you guys so much. And then you wanted to announce
monthly winner. Yeah.
I think he's back. I don't think he was part of it.
Because we didn't do anything.
I just want to make sure I'm on the pace.
The winner is Matt Webb.
Boom, boom. Keep your eyes open.
Something's going to be coming your way.
It was that climatic. I know.
Let's get rolling.
Not a lot of portion news. We gather some.
If you're following us on a regular basis, you know that we're not going to make a show
for the hell of making a show.
We appreciate your patience.
Our summer schedule, I haven't discussed it with Aaron.
This is an open discussion right now.
I know we've taken summers off and I don't think that's really like
I agree with you. It's not really the move.
But maybe like every other week, perhaps in the summer
pending schedules and if people are in town.
We'll just do it all over Riverside and just bones.
Get ready for that since we're approaching summer.
I would say every other week to stay, you know, to keep
in your ear and give you guys some stuff and for the sake of being
fresh and not just reporting just to report.
I just try to put myself in the listener situation.
If there's nothing to talk about, there's no sense in just making
a show to make a show. Maybe we'll be
able to bag a guest or something and then we'll fill in a gap week
when it's not every other week. We'll see what we can do depending on
summer scheduling and that goes for listeners too.
People are going to be vacationing. People are going to fall behind.
We've heard this many times from other people. They're like I'm 10 episodes behind
you guys are just cranking them out.
There's a lot of stuff there in the database anyways even if you're a new listener.
If you need to go back towards a few years ago and listen.
But anyways, just wanted to give you the low down that's
kind of moving forward. That's just summer.
As the summer kind of tails down, things usually pick up even with manufacturing
and car releases and events and all the stuff that goes along
with it. Then there's enough substance basically for every
week. But I'll try to make it at a minimum
even if there's not news. I don't think we'll bag what I'll do
is I'll jump into the history of Rolodex and we can
do race history on a particular brand or model
or event or something.
Guess topic today?
Corvettes.
That's how we'll phase it in.
Just talk. No longer.
Alright, so I was at Ruckus which was great
is an air cool rally hosted by Charles Stanley and his family.
That was up in Stanton
Virginia.
It's been at Roanoke and in Stanton.
We like Stanton. It's pretty cool.
It's further north. Weather was, I appreciated it.
I know some people were kind of cold. It was a little cold
but in a car it has zero climate control.
Cold is better than hot every day of the week.
Do you get heat in it like you did 964? Zero.
Not like heater but there's nothing at all.
There's nothing connected to those vents.
If anything, it's just cold air coming in.
If you dress warm
you can probably counterbalance that.
These shorts and t-shirts.
Just hand warmer on the ball bag.
Like Zach and Mary make a porno.
Burn my nutsack.
It was a great event.
I think it was day 2
maybe?
I can't remember the exact day but there was one day where we ran a route
where I can tend to embellish but I'm not embellishing.
That front of that poor 993
basically got sandblasted.
The carbon fiber hood is just tatted up.
But I mean it's fine. It's a weapon.
I just didn't expect it to happen so quickly.
Not that I'm like bent up about it.
When you see such a drastic change
in a 7 hour period from when you left that morning and then when you come back
there's no paint left.
I think it was leftover gravel from the winter still
that hasn't been cleaned up is what I think it is.
So I think that's what it was. Overall great event.
He always packs it in. I think there were 70 plus to 80 cars.
There are a lot of run groups. A lot of good stuff there.
As always I just appreciate these events.
Did you delete this time?
I was going to delete on day 2
but Ryan Reeves kind of just he led
the afternoon of the day before
and he just kind of took over the next day. I said hey I can go.
I kind of wish I did because I think that was the rock shower day.
Maybe that's why he was out front.
I was following a 993 C4S big contact patch so throwing a lot of rocks
on a constant basis.
C4S.
But still I'm not even joking.
If you probably got out and ran your hand on the ground you could get a pile of it.
In your hand.
It was not just one section. It was pretty much all day long.
So 7 hours of that.
That windshield as well.
It didn't have
cracks.
It didn't have almost any.
You can't even see through that thing now.
Looks like the Rolls Royce roof.
Thankfully it was overcast most of the time so it wasn't a factor.
The 964 when it had that
where it really really impacts it at least from what I've noticed
is driving in low light conditions when you have to use headlights
and there's headlights being shined at you because then
there's just like visibility is ass.
You're almost like your eye level with headlight beams.
And all of those little pits just break up that
lighting so it's not like a homogenous thing that comes in.
It just like scatters the light and you're just kind of like what is that?
Is that a dump truck? And then that moped goes by. You're like I don't even know what that was.
You're like oh that's what that Pink Floyd prism thing is all about.
Exactly right. But so great event.
Another race event coming up.
24 hours of Nurburgring is coming up this weekend.
So always a great event. Porsche usually dominates that event.
Lockhart's gonna be at that. Always going to that.
That'll be fun. I just feel like that would be such a fun
event but I know our events are chaotic.
You see them. People get their days
before to get their spots like that. There's so many signs out right now
too because they just stand a place up after yourself
and clean up because it's so much of a trash pass after they're gone.
But it's the first time they've been sold out in 56 years.
Oh really? So it's a full sell out.
They think it's all for snapping.
That probably does have a lot to do with it. That makes sense.
There's all sorts of things like Grillo. I don't know if you saw the Grillo post. They're like hey for snapping.
These three guys are pretty good. And Estra and a couple other dudes from Grillo.
Well I mean it's creating a dynamic
that didn't exist before right. So I think a lot of people...
I know I was gonna watch just because he is racing but Manthey always brings it.
There's some cool stuff this year. I don't think they've done. They've got
hard gel stuff on the GP track now. Looks like a container home.
Pretty bare bones for what they're charging.
That's always a cool event to see. It's always super exciting.
It's a unique track.
I mean a lot of people are...
It'll be sunny. It'll be raining. It'll be snowing. It'll be windy.
It's almost like Daytona. Minus the snow.
Minus the snow.
So next topic, Porsche. Unfortunately
this is kind of low somber news. They're gonna cut 500 jobs due to revenue lost.
I never like to hear people losing their employment
and I'm sure those people that are working there
that are on that chopping block that really does suck because you're working for a cool
company. You probably have a cool job and then it's like...
Now we're gonna disperse 500 people in the automotive industry
and I'm sure not everybody
has their doors open for the same
reason that Porsche is cutting jobs. The other jobs
are probably if they're not cutting, they're not hiring.
So these people are probably gonna be left out in the cold unfortunately.
There's only so many independent shops.
There's only so many other places to relocate 500 people.
That's a lot.
It didn't really say...
Probably not executives.
Yeah, there's probably not even 500 executives
in that company. If they did, that would be
really top heavy. I would imagine these are people
that actually no offense say if you're an executive but you get the point
when I say this, that actually do shit. So this is actually
gonna be pretty impactful. People that actually build shit
and when they're not there, shit doesn't get built.
So definitely sad.
But again, this is the ripple effect
of that pendulum swing that we've talked about many, many
times in many facets of the world. Like when you overcorrect
or try to course correct something instead of ease into something
it's not always the right answer and if you chose wrong and you're all
in on it, you pay the price dearly for it and it's usually
financially. That's why a lot of companies
that seem boring. Like I'll bring Honda and all these other places.
Even they're hurting EV-wise because they all just follow this pattern
but they don't do anything super
fast. Even without if you think about it, if you scale out
even if they're doing well with EVs, this job thing will probably still happen
on the account of there's just less things involved in making an EV car
and then less maintenance and so your service centers,
you're putting production centers, you're everything.
And then on top of that, they sold their shares in Bugatti
so it shows you that they're on a sinking ship
and they're trying to get weight off the ship so it doesn't sink that quickly.
We were seeing numbers. I think we saw something like 92.7% loss
in profits. Which, you know, again
we talked about this before. It's hard to...
No one's going to audit them on that.
Is that projected numbers? Is that actual numbers?
It just shows that they're losing money.
It's not a mistake that that statement comes out
and then a week or two later they release
we're letting go of a bunch of people.
So it's almost kind of was the hey, we're losing money
and we got to let people go.
Do you think they're looking at like... it almost seems like they're not
raising money but like sell themselves somewhere?
I don't know. I mean they had a big cash and when they went
public, they got a huge cash hit
of money into their system.
So, you know, I honestly
I think they're fine. I just think that they want to
mitigate the bleeding because if they don't then they'll bleed out.
I mean it definitely seems like they're focusing up if they're going to start getting rid of stuff out of their portfolio
and then just be Porsche.
That's probably been a board decision, right?
That's probably where when you end up in these situations
in any type of financial situation, the powers that be
and the bean counters, they all get together and they go okay, where's the fat?
Okay, let's trim the fat. So then they have a rollout
you know, they don't just overnight they systematically
start to trim the fat and I think that's what they're doing.
And I wouldn't be surprised. I mean I don't think it's over
like not that. Again, they're not going to let themselves
basically go under. I mean they're too big of an arm right now.
Why not sell RIMAC or whatever their position is in RIMAC now too.
They're not going to really get on the EV path right now. It doesn't make sense for you to have them.
Maybe some of that intellectual property that they have
already developed, they know they still want to use it at some point.
I just don't want to throw a percentage at RIMAC versus owning them. Just maybe not the time to do it.
And also maybe
what well not maybe it probably is
because EVs aren't that great like who the hell is going to buy that because that's like a
down commodity right? So if you're like hey
let's just make a number up and say hey we bought this a few years ago at
100 intellectual property for EV stuff and all this stuff at $150 million
like now you're selling at what? Half price?
So maybe they're looking at looks like some used intellectual property.
Yeah they're maybe looking at that as like as too much of a loss
and it's not an actual loss until you
cash out. So maybe they're just kind of thinking alright maybe
this will bounce back at some point timing is wrong with this
but we will still need this someday so let's just hang on to it.
That's what everybody's feeling right now with those crypto portfolios. Yeah everybody's in for a long haul
right? Well yeah I mean that's a whole
another topic right? So announcement while
we were away I guess is the best way to describe it.
Looft announced they're going to be in Atlanta in October that's pretty cool.
So they moved from North Carolina we knew they were going to be kind of
like a traveling event in a good way like it's kind of
cool that they picked Atlanta. Atlanta is such a big hub and there's so many cars
there and I think probably much easier to get cars in
special cars if you're shipping or flying cars in from Europe
or whatever. Yeah we knew it was going to
happen. Let's do that it makes sense why would they have it on and then
for them to have it at PECLA. Yeah what makes sense
do you think their headquarters? I bet the next one's going to be in Texas. Yeah
guaranteed. Split it okay go ahead. Because they're not going to go any further south. Like why
would they go to Miami? They're already DRD. Yeah but I'm
just saying it's just my like if you don't know I mean
obviously geographically if you have any common sense you know Miami's way down here
but if you've ever driven from I guess North Carolina
down to Miami like once you enter the state of Florida it's like
another seven hours to get to Miami. We're going to call they're coming to St. Pete.
They do the carts for kids down here anyways. Yeah I
think Atlanta is probably as close as they're going to get to the south
because it makes sense you know PEC
Atlanta corporate headquarters like a lot of cool stuff there
a lot of really easy
staging site for them too right? Like they can pull cars in there and hide cars
there. High end stuff can be locked up. Exactly like stuff they might
pay you know this is wherever you know Fari somebody
has something special they want to bring in. And service if it needed to be service when they got there.
Bring it in there and it's a secure garage like
no one's going to be messing with the stuff like it's actually
a really good venue in the sense of I'm not saying it's going to be at that
but like that's a good holding facility. Stuff could be on track like it would be
for rent sports. Yeah and you know they're going to do a
private event like for the who's there probably
or an event ticket you can buy and do like a cocktail hour and go
and they'll stage cars on the track and it'll be a really
really good event. October in Atlanta too
weather is good. So it is it's probably going
to be there's probably going to be some really heavyweight stuff there.
Like really really heavyweight stuff. They coordinated with us so they could put it right before barn
yeah right thanks. I know another jam packed
month. I'll have Targa and then I think Luft
and then this something like I think it's in that order
and then foreign. So it'll be in that order
but it is what it is it's fine. But I'd be
willing to bet the next one is probably going to be somewhere in that middle
of the United States corridor. I don't think they've not done one
no not that way.
I'm just saying Texas just because
you know it's such a big state it's kind of
centrally located. There's some you know I know they do
what South by Southwest and Austin right so
that they already know what Austin looks like if that might be
a thing they kind of like that artsy type of vibe. A lot of Californian
ex Californians have moved to Austin. So it'll be just like California so
pretty much right you know Tom's and Highwaters and
Stashes right. So
yeah that's an exciting development that's
that basically that they've announced and again
I'm glad that they're keeping it on the East Coast for a little bit. I'm glad it wasn't
like a one and done in Carolina and then right back to the West Coast.
Are you going to put your car on this one? I don't know.
At least take it. At least going to drive it up there I assume. Yeah I'm probably going to take it there
but I don't know if I'm going to request to like try to display it like I mean
I mean it is a special car but I mean there's going to be so many
yeah I'll probably do that but there's so many special cars
that are going to be there and there's so much wealth in Atlanta
there's so much car history in Atlanta I mean
you know Lee Keen being that his home ground
I'm sure he's going to have some cars there. He's probably going to be helping heavy
coordinate this thing. I'm sure they'll lean
on him and again going back to just Porsche being in Atlanta
like and having access to a lot of cars
I'm not saying they won't take cars because they always do
but I imagine there's probably they're going to have plenty
to choose from so I don't think I'm going to be one of those kids that the hopes I get
a golden ticket like oh hey I want to display my 993 they're like cool
well we have a couple real RSRs coming so
what do you think about that they have Japanese plates too they're like parked lots over there kid
I'm like thanks that's a hundred bucks
cool car though cool car
right like give you the compliment on the way out
it's a cool car though nice one sport yeah
yeah hey champ really appreciate
you applying but it's not really that kind of thing
no so I'll definitely probably not request
for my car to be in but for sure like definitely drive being the parking lot
you know the parking lot corral
there are so many guys that I'm friends with in Atlanta I'm sure we're going to coordinate something
Charles Stanley same thing with what he did with the last Luft he's involved
I'm sure he'll probably tailor something
from the Targa event that has like Targa parking
so he can funnel his guys and put them in a lot together
that was pretty cool that he did that last time I thought that was pretty rad
so I'm sure there'll be options I guess
in a worst case scenario if there's not still going to drive and park whatever
still going to go and now you move things up there it's a lot easier
yeah right like yeah super convenient
so next story I found this we're on the topic of events
and racing and all this stuff I know you saw this event but I kind of want to
talk about it a little bit I think it's kind of interesting
being loaned out by Porsche for the 2027
season to run McLaren hypercar with them
so as we've discussed before
like without them saying that they're not going to run
in the following remaining Porsche factory team if this isn't a clear
sign if you're not if you're reading all of the data and you see this
and you're and you're loaning out one of your guys it's on
the main team are you not telegraphing that you're not
going to run a factory team next year like I think that's what that means to me
well Heinrich moved suddenly what I saw first was Heinrich moved to the
963 which he was already there so it's confusing to me that they even announced
that he was going to be on there as soon as I saw that move that's what I
saw this announcement for Vanthoren and McLaren
so you think that Porsche is still going to run a factory team next year
maybe smaller maybe just one car instead of two maybe
maybe not at all maybe maybe it is just customer racing
well the reason why I say that too is that they're running all the liveries that they
like we've seen this with the RSR before where
they don't make an announcement until like the end of the year and then it's like then
once you see it you kind of like figure it out you're like oh that's why they ran a special
livery like at every event this year I thought they were just being cool
but they were just basically sending the car off so I feel
that's what's happening and it could be you could be right it could just be a
could just be a Penske only run next year
and not Porsche Penske in that same way it could be
I just find like but as soon as Heinrich won the race
and the Mustang sampling car would half lap to go
and the factory cars were nowhere to be seen
that just tells you like he was in the last two wins
now why would you not make your young gun
to the 963 and then when McLaren
my guess they needed drivers I don't know that they have a strong
they don't have a feeder team anywhere else and that would make sense with the WC
but I don't think in my personal opinion
I hear what you're saying so indirectly you're saying like maybe he got edged out
but if you really felt that way they clearly
don't because they have him on retainer
that's what everybody said
but I'm just saying like why if you're gonna just let him go then
why would you loan him out and keep him on retainer
unless you're just so like just don't want to let him go
why would you let him do anything that's gonna directly compete with your program for GCP
that's what I don't get because no matter if he doesn't share any
secret I mean it's naturally gonna come out well look you know we probably did it this way
in the 963
well here's now that you're saying that and I wasn't really thinking when I wrote this but now that you say that out loud
it's actually probably to protect Porsche because
well I'm just saying well not even just that I just think that if they let him go
then he's allowed to probably talk
if they don't let him go maybe like since they're involved being saying like hey he's on
so they're talking yeah to McLaren and it's like look
he can help you set the car up for like racing for him and all that other stuff
but if you're like trying to gather data for like
off our cars like he can't answer those questions
like so maybe that's why they're staying involved so it's like it's actually for their interest
it's not for Lauren's interest it's for Porsche's interest to say
hey let's not just cut him loose because if we cut him loose he's just gonna share
all race secrets that we've been doing well because that I mean
by them smart room McLaren just because if they grab him
that's somebody that's been driving these cars for the last few years absolutely so they're not starting from a
zero some game and it looks like they're running the same chassis that Porsche
is running too I mean it's not the same car but it's the same people
who build the chassis for Porsche that they're building the same car from
McLaren so there's gonna be a lot of similarities there and he's gonna probably
help their learning curve a lot but I mean way more than it would be just a brand new guy
yeah do you notice too like he looks like really thin
right like right that bike yeah I mean as thin as he's ever been I feel like
almost kind of like scary thin yeah he's looking pretty
hopefully it's like his like upper arm is like the same size as his
lower arm like that's kind of like alarming at least and maybe just
maybe just working out no I know I'm just saying I'm just I'm not saying
anything like super negative I'm just saying this is the thinnest I've ever seen him like
yeah maybe the car's gonna be heavier and they're like
you can't get a shape 20 pounds
he's like what he's like I'm like 6'2 he's like
you gotta figure it out
but yeah I when I saw that I
I thought it was like yeah
he only gets to eat parfaits now
yeah I thought it was interesting again no official announcement
from Porsche yet if they're gonna continue factory racing next year
this is all speculation from Aaron and I but you follow racing long enough
you know they're not gonna run they know they never run a prototype car
indefinitely they have their internal clock
when they're when they're done running it meaning feel like they've accomplished
what they needed to accomplish meaning winning what they wanted to win and set out
to win and then gathering the data they wanted to gather from that race
to funnel back into whatever they want to funnel that
into whether it's street cars whether that's you know new race car development
where that's new street car hypercar development whatever they decide to do
with that information they probably have everything
that they want I mean if we set down I mean they have a you know
team championship they have drivers championships already yeah I think the only thing
that's eluded them is what Le Mans right they're gonna bring in Brumos again
so it's gonna be a Brumos-Pensky matchup run the Brumos colors
and then Le Mans that would be awesome
yeah we joked around I think what about Brumos
ever getting back into racing that would be glorious if that ever happened but I know that's not
they like the prototypes I know that's not in their
I guess
line of sight with where they're interested because as we know
it costs a ton of money you know I think would be cool is I mean
I know and I'm not trying to take anything away that it already exists there's like a
like a heritage and so that kind of runs that
I forget who I was talking to it was somebody with Brumos
but I was wondering like why would why don't they sponsor a car for that
and run just like the heritage stuff
get the stuff out there like air cool stuff yeah I mean not this
they don't necessarily even have to run their like Primo stuff because they don't want to like
crash it because as I'm saying like just a car in general because that's what they did
in their bread and butter like what just to keep you know
not necessarily have to run all of but maybe like the hit list you know run
and I'm sure Hurley would probably love to get back in a car
and run some sessions and he could probably split time with somebody else and
I don't know I think it'd be kind of cool to see that livery the official one not like
you know not that there's anything against people
individualizing their cars at those like events
but I think it'd be cool to see an actual like team because there are teams
out there that are supporting that vintage racing I think it'd be kind of cool to see
Brumos do that but you know that's a sidebar
alright so big topic here
and I got a little bit of another
like we'll sprinkle in the air cold this is and some of this stuff
so the inspiration I give credit where credit's due on this
this is more kind of like I wrote
this but it was based off of something I heard when Lee Sybs was talking about it
with he's in UK
in the UK he's a podcaster and been in
Porsche forever he used to write for excellence magazine and all that stuff
so he's been embedded in Porsche in a long time he's got a YouTube channel really cool
I think it's called like 9-11 Works
or something like that really good guy really knowledgeable
knows this stuff and he brought up some stuff
again I didn't watch the whole thing but a couple highlights that he brought up
that made me kind of go do some research
because I'm not really when you own the car at least for me
I'm not really looking at comps on that car because you already own the car
so it's like why and I don't have any time I don't plan to sell the car
so you're not really looking at what the market's doing on them
so he brought up a good point he said 997 GT3's
and he wasn't even being specific with .1's or .2's but it's just general
and we're talking GT products they're just kind of dried up
meaning there's onesies and twosies for sale out there but
the surplus of those cars people are holding
and they're not moving them and there's a couple theories
at least he investigated and he bounced some ideas off of people and he thinks
the thought process is on it that people will have these cars
you know we're coming at a winner most people don't sell sports cars
like that during the winter because it's not a good sell rate anyhow
however there's not a lot of them coming up
we're well into spring in a lot of places
moving to summer in about a month officially on the calendar
we've been in summer but they're not
showing up .1's and .2's they're just not really popping up and again
there's a couple here and there
but as a whole
they're not super I mean they're lower production
but if we really want to get into it they're not
the production on those cars were not collector grade cars like they weren't they didn't make
like only 20 of them you know we're talking about they made like
2,000 of them that's a lot of cars if you think about it from a collector grade situation
because that's not a collector grade
number like if you really dive into it like RM and all these other places
that's not even in the realm of collectability
of rarity right like same thing if you and you
can argue stuff like you know the F40 that they made over a thousand like was it
1200 of those cars 1250 something like that technically those cars are not
collectible either like in the sense that they are collectible don't get me wrong people are
collecting them I'm not saying that but I'm saying in the world of if you break down
a book just on this line rarity yeah like the amount of them
existing is not a rare amount
so it is unique I mean now
don't get me wrong money can always buy anything but we're just talking about
accessibility and them being out there so I looked at
like the cheapest some of the ones that I saw like 60,000 miles dot ones
were selling at $175,000
and that was like with a minor on the car facts that wasn't
even like a no accident car it seems like comps on them around
40 to 50,000 miles no accident
cars are selling in like 190 for like dot ones
they're about to go up because there was one on 996 just went on Barrett
for 180 I saw that yeah that car had 8,000 miles on it
and then your car the dot two starting
around low comps are like 190
and then you know low two's
so I mean are they gonna be
half a million dollar car someday probably not however
they've been secretly going up
and not so secretly if you've been watching like I haven't been watching
so my point of bringing this up to anybody who's listening
and be a friend if your friend doesn't listen or maybe put them
on this podcast if you're one of those people that are like in a holding pattern
for a Metzger engine GT car you need to get
moving like because that price once this
happens you all we've all seen it with all these other things right like we've seen it with
like you can just name cars in the Porsche list and then
you're like I remember when that car and fill in the blank this is
already becoming that it's already kind of
out of reach for a lot of folks and it's gonna continue to
go there so if you're not paying attention
in the market and you think that you're like oh I'm just gonna sit around and wait for these to come down
that that boat sailed a long long time ago yeah the three then the
RS cars are what's dropping these things up and on top of that like
I think there's been a pretty significant increase I want to say in the last
probably 24 months because I can remember
like dot ones being available for like
135 pretty much all day long all that
and not saying they were like 30 or 40 of them ever listed on a public
site like you know car gurus or auto trader but there was at least a few
now that it's like down to like two or three and
they're the cheapest ones like 170 so already that delta
and I'm not saying it's a good car a bad car I haven't done any research but
what I'm saying is most of these cars what I my theory
because this happens in the air cold world and the people that are in it know this
those cars usually don't make it to a consignment shop they usually don't make it to
an auction site they usually don't make it to a car gurus
or auto trader they make it to a word of mouth situation and usually
there's group of friends or somebody knows somebody hey Mike selling a GT3
and it's like oh shit I know his car you know can I get his number
from you I'll reach out to him it's like hey dude I heard you were thinking about selling your car
you're not even selling it yet you're thinking about selling it but you know this
people that have probably bought cars that were listening and know this that's how those cars
transact and I have a feeling the last few that
are still out there available like publicly listed in the next
12 months I don't know if those cars will be there at all
I think it'll it'll go slowly to that or just to like big
money auctions yep I think that's that's what's moving and there's
I was gonna tell you there's that that 3rs for 898 right now
yeah it's insane so and that's and that was
I messaged me ghost and I was like so yours would know scripted
we're at a million right now yeah because yours is bts black
I know what is that like if you were in at let's just call it him
at 300 on his cuz I remember he said he overpaid let's say somebody offered him a
million like if you I guess if you don't need the money
you you run into and this is what Lee was talking about
and I agree with him the people that have the cars
even if they can make profit it's almost it's the same thing with a home essentially
you live in a great area your house is appreciated like by eight or
$900,000 yeah but you're never gonna live in that area again because
all you're gonna do is buy either more expensive house just to live
there or you have to move away with the money right so I feel like that's kind of a similar
thing with these cars because you get in on
a lower entry rate and then you're like okay yeah let's just say oh I'll make
$100,000 profit on this car or you wait long enough let's say you wait five years and you
make couple 100000 okay great what do you do with that money
you can't go buy another one because the price
is what somebody just paid for yours
and now you're inventory if you can find one that you like
yeah so now you're paying market value for the thing that you just sold right
if not more because it just went up on you yeah so a lot of people
if you move it I know most people don't go in and buy the exact same thing
you have to divert that money somewhere else obviously I mean you're right I mean if you're in the position
whether you want to get into something else or you just have a different
right you don't care about it then it's fine then make your money yeah and most people I feel
like if they hang on to them long enough and they're making that significant money they reallocate
those funds to probably a different brand or at least a different year car
right they're like oh well you know it's not the same as my
997 but you know I always wanted a 991.23 RS
so I put the money in that car I honestly feel like that's
somewhat the move for a lot of people yeah
yeah I see people doing that I mean I think there always
will be a lure with the manual cars and I think
that's probably why there's they're being super charged
because it's a different feeling from the newer GT3's
so I think that's what's super charging those cars
are they going to keep going up yeah there's I mean how
fast is only the market will tell
I feel like they kind of they were incrementally
going up you know on probably on the 7% to 8%
per year for a little bit and then I feel like in the last
you know it was probably I don't know exactly when but like I said
within that last 24 months they kind of did like a
20% bump like in between there and then kind of like
bump them up
I just look too for reference
purposes I think nice quality
driver quality car but not like clapped out or anything I think the cheapest
996 GT3 I saw was like
995 like it's the cheapest
you know pts seal gray on that one too
so it's one of those things where it's
the stockpile has been dried up
this is you know that everybody knows that they haven't made those
cars in a very long time that's pretty obvious but I feel like
there's the people that have them know
what they have I don't think there's any accident owners anymore
I think before there might have been a few meaning like oh yeah
like I know it's a GT3 you know but they didn't own it because it was a
vetsker car they didn't own it just because it was a manual they just owned it because
it was cool and it was probably convenient and they got a good deal on it
and they liked to rip so like got a GT3 and then
somebody offered them like crazy money you know and then they were like dude I only paid
X amount for this of course I'll sell you for that
I feel like a lot of these cars are in people's hands that either
hunted them down like meaning like
there's just no accident owners now like everybody it's almost like
that old joke right on Facebook I know what I have like well yeah because
you would need to know what I need to know but you would just you're going to be
looking for these cars I don't think you're just in an accident but oh I got a GT3
or a 3RS or you know I don't know what it's all about but I got
one yeah and then you have your kind of like your dealership fraternity guys meaning like
that live at the dealership that buy new cars from the dealership and those
guys are connected guys that know where other cars are at too
so like if and then going back to that word or mouth they're like oh hey
you know Daniel down you know in Belleville has a
997.1 GT3 and I don't know make a
cobalt blue you know or whatever it's like oh I always wanted a cobalt he's like wow he wants to sell
it but it's not publicly listed but it's not for sale but it's for sale I
call him if you want you know and like again that car moves
I feel like the new like PTS or being different is buying a 997
or like 3, 2, RS yeah I think that's
because everybody get a 992 yeah I mean now you have to go
I think Smokies yeah Smokies kind of they just built you know a 997
.2 4 liter car they even talked about
it I think briefly in one of their posts about how even you know
they have a very exclusive group of people that
have a lot of funds that access to funds
and they're even having a hard time sourcing cars or getting
cars and getting those types of cars for people that want those cars
and like you said I think it goes back to
it's a similar experience to the newer
GT3's you can tell that there's obviously been a refinement and a maturation
if you've ever driven them but they're not the they're
very different cars right like meaning the early ones compared to the
newer ones and I think a lot of people are
I hate this word but it's used a lot that visceral experience right like it's
it's getting vintage you're getting a delineation now where it's
it's very not the exact same but I think it's enough
there's been enough time where it's very much air-cooled, water-cooled
yeah well I feel like those are like you said they're almost
old enough now those that you know the
996 and a 997 GT3's where they're almost
considered like in vogue because they are
vintage right like they're almost like where over the
993 when it was like 20 years old people are like man these cars are pretty cool
they don't make these anymore this is pretty badass this is I think there's a lot of that chatter
going on and in different driving groups and different
everybody's trying to get early early to the game and now it's
that boat set sail so now people
usually catch that boat by building a money bridge to get to that
boat so that's what's happening now
and I think they're just gonna keep going up because they haven't even hit
and we've talked about and not just in the Porsche world it's in any car world
if it's a special car for whatever reason once a car
hits 25 years old
and it's not exactly 25 it's around the 27th
it's like around that number
every single car if it's special hits like a little bit of like
a nitrous like in price
like initially like right after that peak of like okay it's 22, 23,
24 years old, 25 years old around there like it just shoots up
and then it kind of sustains a little bit again and then it just
starts doing the 7 so like we've seen them
go up and we haven't even got to the 25 years so like when we get to the 25
year mark who knows what the hell is gonna happen with these things
and we'll see if we start seeing stuff come from Japan and everywhere else because now it's 25
year rule and then once
Porsche does like a huge like basically layout of like
celebrating that car then it's really on
because then everybody knows about it which is crazy that it has to have
well it's the old like stockbroker thing right it's like oh I read about the stock
and time magazine too late bro it's way too late that's pretty much
what Porsche is like the stockbroker magazine you know they're the Fortune 500 magazine
they're gonna talk about it everybody it's already in the know
about the stock already has one already is playing that and then
they're gonna and then all the outliers who have no idea that aren't involved
in stuff and they're like holy crap I'll go to get me one of those like what
250 for one with 70,000 miles this is ridiculous like well
by data I'm still gonna get that's the price and then there's some people you're right
there's some people will say no and then there's some people would say I don't care what the prices I gotta
have one now we're not gonna get
into whether that's a $250,000 driving experience or it's a
$200,000 driving experience. It's one of the markets as it is. Yeah I mean
to be fair you know what mercies or manual mercies are going
at a million that's not a million dollar driving experience I mean from everybody that I've heard
that it's ever driven a mercy like I haven't driven one they're cool but
it's a taxing driving experience it's not like you're getting
in that car and you're like oh my god man like this car handles like a
motherfucker I'm out here ripping this is amazing it's more of kind of just like wow that's
a million bucks like not that you're downplaying it's a special
experience because of the sound it creates you know the engine behind you the V12
the manual gated you know all that stuff the Lambo doors all the allure go along
with that car that's what makes that like but the driving experience alone
that's not a million dollar driving experience I don't know if there is a million dollar driving experience
probably not. It's just a million dollar cost. Yeah that's just the
price of entry that's just what it is
so you know disclaimer
out there if you're out if you're waiting you need to get moving
and if you've already been outpriced and you have to knock down to a
996 there ain't no shame in that get in get into the club
because those cars are also going to be unaffordable
very soon because they pretty much are and they may supersede other things just because
they're different. Dude when I was shopping for mine those cars
were going for like 55 to 65 thousand dollars all
day and they were everywhere like you could you could pick
like there was all all types available you know
I'm not saying hundreds but probably at any given point there was probably 30
or 40 available that you could try to chase down
and anything from bone stock to really modded so whatever
you wanted you could pretty much find it and this was only
five years ago is that right? No
six years ago now so that
that and and now those cars are
poverty spec ones are 99 thousand dollars like nice
spec ones are 130 so
you know do the math on that it's it's insane
I get it people either even in the Porsche world and outside the
Porsche world they're like this is stupid like why would anybody pay for that
I get it I mean I own one I could see why you would think that
but again it's applying to man there's just not
they're not making them like that anymore and there's something always about like
right like look at bands right like their first or second album
everybody's like that was the best one like you know all the other ones they still were bad
ass those still rocked but like those first couple man that was it and everybody's chasing that
same thing with books right it's like oh that's a first edition book I want
that like it's just nostalgia yeah and it's time
right like it's anything like it ages same thing with bourbon when it ages
it gets more expensive wine ages get more expensive two to three ages
more expensive yeah and then that moves us right into
I mean I happen to own one but 993 like has had
so there was a little bit of seesaw effect if you guys are not paying attention
964 is like surged there for a long long time because
of all of the factors that went into it right singer all of these
other houses that were modding them and using that platform and then just
people like me and other people that were taking care of them and then doing fun stuff with
them and so like that car got a lot of
promenades and kept going up from basically where it was I mean it was like a dead dog
and then it became like a hero
there's been in the last few months
I mean obviously didn't plan this that car kind of just landed in my lap
but 993's have surged again like to
go back on top I mean prime example
a C2 not an S just regular C2
129,000 miles comps on that car are like
$130,000 that's what they're going for that same car
a few years ago you could pack that car for like $70,000
so now all those special
cars are even more expensive I'm talking that's a base model
so like C4S's I don't know if you looked I mean not if you're
interested but like let's just call it some driver
not collector quality 50,000 miles Arctic Silver nothing crazy
bone stocker that's a 200 plus car
200 all day that's a comps on that car
isn't that as a Reeves as C4S
and he's had his for a while I mean so it's
they're expensive and they're getting out there
and dude
maybe 96.4's will just crush down real fast
and then just like anything we always talk about this you know rising tide
so like what we it hasn't happened yet
because I feel like G bodies and SC's kind of took a break there for a little
bit when like some of that hot air came out post COVID
but get ready if you're searching for a G body or an SC
and you're waiting you think theirs are going to go down you probably want to buy ahead of this
because there's probably a tidal wave coming because
as those 993's keep going up the 964's are going to go up behind
them and then guess what happens G bodies SC's those all go up too
are they going to be as rapid absolutely not
but is going to go up so let's just say you know you can go get
a nice driver you know 3-2 career for
65 now next summer that
car might be 75 it probably will be 75
if not higher so just be mindful that
if this is you're waiting one more summer maybe bump that up and buy it
this summer so you don't miss that because
it's I think maybe because there's some
portion fatigue in the sense of like pricing because everybody just knows
it's just a blanket statement I was like they're all so expensive
like nobody's even chasing anymore just because like oh well
where's the special car like even 996 turbos are expensive this is expensive everything's
expensive right so now it's just they're all expensive
I hear that all the time now like instead of like what you know which ones are
really hot they're just all expensive now and that's a true statement
which is a damn shame because
that limits so many other people that want
one that can't get in for financial purposes or
if they just refuse to pay that and they have the means which I totally
get and it also limits us
that have them and want more because now you're
you can't have a bunch more because you used to be able to get oh these don't cost
that much so I can have multiples now it's like I can have like one
I'll let you run to get something that's like a crazy project and you gotta build a motor and all this stuff
and then you're still gonna be probably in the same money at the end of the day but
well yeah because you take you take that ride
and we've known many people that have built cars
many people that have done what exactly what you said and honestly
yeah at the end of the day you have exactly what you want but the shit costs twice as much
because the parts themselves are expensive so it
sounds ridiculous to say this but it's actually probably better to buy
a whole car instead of like trying to put together a motor trying to put together a trans
and then build a car and then source all that stuff out because
you're like oh I could have spent 80 but I spent
180 but I have what I want but
the difference is but you're not gonna get that back out in normal way
you'll probably get 50% back so if let's say you
you're all in at 180 and if you had to be in a pinch I'm not even
gonna name the car because I don't want to offend anybody but I'm just saying like let's just say you build like a hot rod
you know mid-year doesn't matter just an air cooled
hot rod and you're you spot the car at 80 and you dump that 100
grain into it you probably you know if it's done right
with like reputable shop you know bills like I
you can get a lot of it back but you're like you're right you're gonna lose some of it if you
for whatever reason financially you had to move that car you're not gonna get 180
probably get 160 though which is pretty good in the world of mods
good for whoever's buying it from you yeah because
they're gonna be like I stole this car you know right because they're gonna have all the receipts but
yeah I was blown away by the 993
situation to be honest with you because I'm like really
a manual 130,000
you know 100,000 mile car for 130
now that's the ask on it I don't know if it obviously
we don't know what to transact that behind closed doors
but I would I bet pretty close you know
they're not gonna be some $10,000 discount on it like maybe
a grand or two like so maybe it doesn't sell for 130 it sells for like
127 that's still a strong ass number for 100,000
mile C2 you know 993 C2
that's bone stock still more than the MSRP was back
in the day you know with 17 inch cup ones looking goofy with
the offset from factory you know and then you gotta take it and
hopefully there's no deferred maintenance and then
and then doing whatever you want to do suspension wheels
all this stuff now you're into the car at 160 like it's insane
and then I see why younger people if they're not really in love
with or older people it doesn't matter age I guess
if you want an air cool but you're just not that in love with it I could see why it pushes them
into a water cool car because at 160
you're buying power in a water cooled world is insane right like you can do so much more
that or just ventured something else but again
that aura that goes with that though is totally different because they're
like oh yeah cool you got like a you know a 991
GT3 I've seen like a thousand of those like
but even that pulling up in that base 993 people are gonna be like
oh that's cool because it's different yeah because you don't see a lot of them
even if they're you don't got shit done to it people are gonna be like still cool they're like that's pretty badass
you know another GT3 in the lot especially like
the closer you get to more current date GT3 people are kind of
like cool you know especially if you're in the
Porsche world you're like seeing a million of them very cool cars still very capable
but and I feel like there's a lot of people who buy those cars and
they they don't get what they think that they were gonna get out of it meaning like the vibe
especially if they don't use it you know like they don't do
a track day they don't go to the mountains they don't go to rallies they're kind of like yeah
you know like it's cool it sounds great I go to like events I drive it around occasionally
and it's kind of like you don't seem too enthusiastic
about it it's like yeah you know whatever it's like
yeah because I think people buy
the idea of the sexiness of the car right like these things that are gonna happen
or they're gonna do right well yeah because you and I think that's another thing too
triggered me like you watch it like an air and water or you watch something else
like you're gonna like go and take this event it's gonna be awesome yeah because you get pumped up about
an event you're like you there you're like well this is cool
but then like you said I think if you don't
drive the car past just in a different way
than you would from a commute I don't think you you'll really get
the vibe and why there's such a cold behind that
yeah I think that's a good point because and you don't necessarily
like I'm speaking for both of us
you don't necessarily have to rally it you don't necessarily have to go to the track
you don't necessarily have to do those things but if you never extract
what those cars were meant to do I think you kind of miss the purpose
and I know there's a whole group of people
just like to show and display and that's fine and if that really
if only you know that meaning like I'm talking about the collective you
like you will you are the only one it knows that you get happy with that
if that actually genuinely makes you happy awesome and then go for
it but like I think there's a lot of people secretly unhappy
they like the car attention the car gets
but not extracting what the car can do or experiencing
what the car can do I think it goes into that category of
you don't know what meaning like they don't know what they're missing
so they don't they don't long for it
but until they do it like seeing is believing right like when they
do it they're like holy crap I had no idea this car could do this
I can't tell you and I'm sure you've heard it too how many times have we talked to people
that have never done a track experience or never done
a rally or never done anything and the minute they drive that car at
78 tenths for the first time that first time they
get out of the car and they take a break that you just hear this like guttural like
holy shit dude that was insane holy crap
I'm so glad I had this car it's like probably the first time they've
ever said that other than the first day that they bought the car right it was pretty cool
yeah like no one ever gets out of the car it's like that was alright
everybody gets out of the car and they're like pupils pupils are dilated their hands
are shaking and they're like that was fucking awesome right
again I know it's not for everybody
I know it scares a shit out of a lot of people but again
at a minimum should go to like PEC Atlanta and experience a
controlled track day there right by instructors at a minimum if you're chasing
GT cars and even if you're not just chasing like
your halo 911 whether that be a base 992
or whatever or 997 C2S
or C4S you should go there and at least
know what a professional can do with the car and then go have fun with one of their
cars and then you'll get to live with those
romantic memories driving your car even if you're not doing
those things with your car because knowing some of that I think is
cool right to be able to go man I don't drive that way but these
cars are super capable and I like that about this car
maybe there's a way to spark some of that too because you go
with a professional and see that you're in the McConn is out handling you in a 911
and then you have a different respect for other things on the road right where you're
kind of like holy crap like in the right art like the right hands
like watch out right like almost kind of what we talked about it before like the
2.5 turbo Cayman S that's tuned and has great
suspension and sway bars and you know polyurethane
bushings and solid you know monoballs and all that stuff and then you get
in there and you you're the guy in the 992 Manthey GT
3 sitting at Topoko clowning that guy right you're like oh
nice poverty spec car right and then you go out there and that guy fucking puts you
off the mountain and you're just like holy shit dude I thought my car was awesome he's like
yeah deuces yeah he's like don't see him anymore
you're like oh my god what's that little car got in it
what do you got like a V12 in that thing
Josh did that to me coming down and I was like oh I'm keeping up and all of a sudden
I just didn't see him yeah I was not surprising at all
people sleep on those cars man they're so fast
they are so fast I mean first of all the car weighs like
3,050 pounds from their
number wise they're anemic if you keep them in base
you know mode meaning like a Carrera S but if you go and put a tune on it
and you put new downpipes you can even keep the factory exhaust
and just put new cats on it to let that thing breathe better
dude that's like 450 horsepower and 3,000
pounds like in mid engine
are you allowed justifying your daily or no no I'm probably not going
to get one of those but they make a very very
compelling case I'm probably going to end up I've been
back and forth I mean you I've got too much time on my hands like meaning like
before I make a purchase I don't mean like I have idle hands and I'm sitting in a room with nothing to do
I don't want to misconstrue that I'm very busy but
I mean I have too much time before I make
that purchase where the climate of the cars that I'm chasing
can change dramatically meaning like up or down
so we'll see I mean my hit list
if I had to tell you today is probably 991.2
4S I've kind of moved off the
career tease on those kind of chasing like a wide body so that's why
I say 4S for those
no I just kind of like the body like you know they didn't go to full wide body
till 992 like with the base
so there are for
I've been looking at C4S's in 991.2's
I've been looking at a lot of 992's actually
base model and
Carrera S's because they're both white bodies but you know obviously different
tune but I still think the better
buys the base car because then you can just tune it and then it will have more
power. When the base was quick when we drove out we were super surprised. Well it's going to have
the numbers on them like I've been doing the engineering
explain deep dive on them like numbers on these things after you tune them and you
do stuff and not even like major stuff. I'm talking about like a Stage 1 tune
Cat Deli car does runs like a
10.8 quarter mile base car
like 0 to 60 time is like not that that matters but it's
like 3334
which is I mean that's
991.2 Turbo S times in a base 992
with a tune. I mean it makes a compelling story
and it's a wide body because they're all wide bodies so like now I'm
so deep in the weeds where it's like now I'm chasing spec meaning
some of them came with sports chrono some of them didn't some come with sports exhaust some
didn't so like I want sports exhaust chrono like I want all those things
Yeah depending up you want to change that stuff out though too it's like sports chrono you probably need
those you can have different features. Yeah because it still has like launch control like
and I want the fact PSC
Porsche sports exhaust from factory because all I want to do is I actually want to
change the cats because I still want to have the valve factory valve in it
I don't want and also I don't like look
the look of the non factory
I mean the non factory sports exhaust in a 992 now
if you ask me which one I would prefer I probably prefer a
991.2 for s because I just kind of like like
that look better but I'm not the 992
is growing on me a lot I do like the fact that the base model
is a wide body car yeah and I do like the
tech since it's a daily driver yeah
and I do for the purposes of it
being bigger for daily actually is better because
it can hold more shit like it's not a lot but
there's a little bit more room in the back seat where you can put more baggage
you know just overall stuff like that but again I do
I think it's going to be one of those two like so to still be
12 months out to narrow it down to just two models is pretty good well
three I guess 992 C2S also I'm looking at because
sometimes on it's just going to be tough to get
all the things I want out of a base model so if I can find a C2S
with because usually that a lot of those came standard with a lot of those things
that I'm chasing like sports exhaust sports you could just get the ass and get
most of it out of there yeah and then I'll and I'll still tune the ass and then
I'll still do the same things to it and then that car instead of running like a 10.8
not that I'm going to the quarter mile it run like a 10.5
definitely not doing any of that stuff nope not doing any of that
just a tune probably lowering springs yeah
cat delete and then just drive it every day I try not to
I don't want to monkey with it too much because yeah I don't want to take something
that was supposed to be like good and chill and like not make it chill
like I just I just want it to be fast
essentially I'm doing poverty turbo at turbo s stuff nice
so that's kind of why I'm chasing yeah poverty turbo s
off turbo no one will get it but yeah
but yeah so that's my thought process behind
that I mean again it's way way out so we'll see
turbo C2S yeah well it's so
weird because I'm not just talking
trash I mean I'm not inflating those numbers I got no skin in that game
I had to look it up multiple times to believe it like with the base car
meaning the 992 being like if you tuned it you did this and you could get these numbers
out of it and I'm like that just doesn't what like how
how how is that possible they're a lot more efficient than they've been given credit
for yeah well we always know that they're oh they're
have way more power than they claim anyways from the starting point so there's that
thanks EPA
but again I think the max two for me would be
992.1 because I still like the
analog tack in that car yeah because when they go to dot two it's digital
do you think it looks a little bit wider just because like rear taillights are separated
do you think there's a little bit more well it's a bigger car I mean in general
there's just no denying that I mean you know when
and from an efficiency standpoint when we heard about that and we reported about
on show it makes total sense because now they don't have to put a bunch of shells on a different
bunch of cars so they're kind of like outside of the the turbos the
turbo s you know with the inlets they they don't have to mess with
that like they're like okay basically from base all the way up to c4s we're in gts
we're good to go like we're using the same shell
but the inlets in there same Colin
Nakira Akai to run RWB this like
turbo s for us we have the Zefriel's version
but yeah so that's kind of where I'm at with it I mean I do
like the idea of like the newer tech of it so if
like if I bought like a 2021 it would be relevant for a
while a much longer not that I care
that much about that but again I
there are there is if I see the right color c4s
991.2 I think it's that Arctic
gray sometimes they call it wolf gray but it's basically what like
Nikki Fox's car is Albert's old car used to be
what's got that gray blue in it yeah I really
for some reason I have an affinity to that color and it's not even pts it was
that color was available on the pallet wheel just a lot of people didn't take it
and I just think it looks that color looks so good I mean
I think James Sacks car is that color as well as new gt3
yeah I'm just I don't know what it is about that color
I feel like that is such a Porsche color I feel like when I see that color
but in a unique way not in the sense of oh there's
another one of those. It's not chalk. Yeah I mean I like
chalk too but I think we got they inundated us with chalk
for a long time and it wasn't just a 9-11's
it was in gt4s. Anybody pts these cars or have you run across
any of that since you've been looking? There's one
for sale but they won a premium on it
and I don't even know if it was pts I didn't do the research because I don't care enough
but there's a lava orange c4s that looks really good but again
no sports exhaust on that particular car and
you know it's just what would you get like the black tips
and shadow trim or you know it's a
if it matches well it doesn't really matter to me
I'm not gonna go that far to chase it like I definitely gonna chase
interior spec first and then color is like secondary
like I won't compromise
like sports chrono and sports exhaust
over a color and that's exactly
I could probably if everything was perfect on the car
and it didn't have ventilated seats I might
and the price would have to be juicy too for me to be sacrificing that
and if it was a strong price and it was still missing that and everything else
was checked I would still pretty like be leery because
I don't have to buy it like I'm not like Russia. Is there a no go interior
color? Yeah like a gray
or tan unless like so I did see some
992s that were an Aventuri green that had tan interior
I'm okay with that. Yeah
that color combo that works. Outside of that
I really don't want tan if I don't have to have it
and then there is some grays like they have some 992s that were
in guards red and then they had like gray interior I'm like what
like why did they do that? I think just keep clicking the shade down
to black interior. Yeah it's just so weird like it
I don't know it gets really like shiny too for some gray for some
reason gets like shiny meaning like when your ass polishes this seat
essentially. So where is it? It's wearing. Yeah I mean you could clean that up
like if you get some cleaner and stuff but it just doesn't
show well like when you see it at least for me I don't like the way it looks visually
and especially since there's so many to choose from it's not like
you're kind of like handcuffed when you're chasing a GT3
you know essentially where you're like well I want a 997.1 GT3
and you're like but I want you know carbon buckets from the factory
and you're like good luck dude they all had sofa seats like not going to happen
so like it's not that like rare of a spec that's like you can just find
another one or just wait longer and you'll get another one
Do you like 18-way seats or 4-way seats?
I don't really care about that I would prefer sport seats
obviously but you know there's been a couple I looked at that were
good price everything was perfect and then it had
comfort seats and I'm like that is probably the one thing
that I would let slide if everything else was perfect and
the price was right meaning like fair not like a steal but like long as I
didn't feel like I was paying up and it didn't have sport seats I could
probably still pull the trigger on it but if it was priced up
I would probably just pass I'd be like yeah does that even have sport seats so like it'd be easy for me to check out
on something like that but if it was like that like there's one for sale
right now it's actually a good price and I'm kind of like I'm a year early
could I do this
that's man math like that's how fucked up my head is like I'm sitting there like
I knew I wouldn't take long to get to this point because I knew others
because I'm like alright now the spec that I wanted has shown up and it's even got
the wheels that I wanted has the RS design wheels that's what I want on
the 991.2 because
the RS design wheels were different on the 992 they still look good
but they're different and they're different on
the 9-11 too they're the same pattern
but they're actually a little bit more concave because they're wider
obviously because they have to be further like and it's for the C4S so it's
like a 12.5 inch rim so it's wide
so they're chunkier but I just like the way that aesthetic looks
more sporty but anyways like in that wolf gray color
there's one for sale right now it's got not like crazy low miles with driver miles
like 45,000 miles like they want like 100 for it
it's got sports seats, chrono,
exhaust, ventilate, it's got everything it's like it's in
Washington state right now yeah so it's like
yeah I fly and drive at home but I might
I could probably do this right now
and then what
a couple weeks of ramen it's fine this is an exercise in patience is what
it's gonna be and if you get it now you won't be up for it true
or we could go down right where's that no
I think with those like the cars that I'm chasing in a good way like
they're in an area of still depreciation
I think if you're talking 992 I think 991 maybe some
but I think if you're still talking current and genish
991.2's and then 992's like
991's the motor is very similar like just the body
is different so like people aren't chasing those cars because they're like super special
now like since we're on the topic I guess we should talk about this too
I wasn't going to but 991.1's are increasing
and continuing to increase because they are the last
NA motors and the people that are chasing
modern cars but vintage vibes
they're buying that new but analog
and it's the last before they go to forced induction
across the line so the people in the know
are buying those up and even more
difficult to find in those cars now because they're getting bought up are manuals
people are just buying them up left and right I mean
we've been selling them on the website pretty regularly
and they go for good money
and I'm not even talking about like a highly specced I'm talking about a base model 991.1
and if you didn't know they all came with 7 speeds
they weren't 6 speeds that's not desirable to transmission but it is a manual
so it's still pretty good I mean those cars mild up are still going
for like 70, 80 grand base base models
I'm talking about like 2013 base model with like 70,000 miles
man so if you got in a base back in the day you might be making some money
yeah you could have daily drove that thing you didn't lose anything
they all told me this would happen and it's actually real
drove the car for 13 years and we're assuming if you're the original owner but like drove it for 13 years
and like literally got every dollar that you spent on the car back
because they're hitting their stride now because
again for all of the reasons we talked about earlier in the show
everybody being priced out everywhere
and it fits the modern era for
you know again not age specific but if you're chasing something
and even if it's your you want that to be your special car
and you've mentally checked out you're like well I'm not going to buy an air cool car
because I don't want to fit it with all of that stuff that's not enough power for me but I do want a manual
transmission but I want the proper 911
experience with having an NA motor and everybody
is landing on 991.1s and there's no issues
I haven't heard anything there's no big catastrophic issue with these
motors so that maybe even
and that car we talked about it before
just very very briefly so like it's easy to miss but that
car is lighter than the 997 like as a chassis
because that car is predominantly made of aluminum
so it's saved a ton of weight even though that car got bigger
it got lighter so like a 997.2
Carrera S and a 991.1
Carrera S the 991 is a lighter car than that car
which is insane to think about because you always think like oh it's older it's got to be lighter
because things were different it was smaller you're like well the 991 is so much of a bigger car
how's that like the almost the entire chassis is made of aluminum
almost so that's how they saved a ton of money in that car
yeah right and you know people are getting used to that
I mean most people have gotten over the fact that if that's the only
bugaboo with that car it's not that big of a deal because
I think they all have tuning
you can extract maybe like 30 more horsepower
I mean I meant for the electric steering oh oh I don't know about that part
probably not I don't know if it was just a thing but it's just like said
I don't think you can mess with that I'm sure maybe if you had to
but I mean from what I heard I mean it's not bad
I know we've driven 991.1
it's just not something where it's like high on my memory list where it's like I remember that
experience I mean it was a great car I do remember that I think we drove it
a C2S I think 991.1 it was fast
and it sounded good I think it was I don't think I know it was a
PDK car but still amazing car and those cars
if you shop them and look at them right now dude you wouldn't believe this
but they're almost like the same price as like a 991.2
like even though they're five years older
like price point wise so right now what we're saying is the hidden gem
and this whole whole outline of cars is probably the 992 base
probably I mean if you're okay with the turbo situation
like and not a manual like if you're hunting a PDK and you just want
the experience and you and you're okay with speed and torque like
that car is going to deliver in spades if you want a traditional experience
I still think even though they're going up and they're still kind of
pricey I still think that car has room because I actually think the
991.1s are going to keep going up because they
are the last NA cars especially if you go get like a cool spec one like
if you go get like a C2S and like not necessarily a PTS color
but like a cool color that's not like. That's one of the metallics off the steering
that's not like always seen out there right like even
maybe like a speed yellow car and if you can and I will say
I'll even say this I think PDK cars are going to go up but obviously the manuals
will command the high price in that gen and they already do
but again if you if you're not chasing that
and that's not a big of a deal you go get a 991.1 like GTS
came over dude like great car lots of power
NA you get probably
85% GT3 noises out of that car with a proper exhaust
and for what
a fraction of the price probably half price almost
good deal half price but I don't have anything else
you have anything for them buy something yeah that
anything do do the research I mean there's some there's a couple honey holes out
there but those are even drying up too so if you're going to make a move
make one quick and again we have no skin in the game so
if you want our consulting services yeah if you want to buy more cars that does nothing
to do with us you want to buy less cars that does nothing to do with us we're just sharing info because
hate to say we told you so but a lot of the stuff is pretty
obvious if you do your own research you'll see everything we're saying is
accurate it's not like we have the super secret you know Ouija board
that we know all the stuff like a lot of the stuff if you're in the Porsche world long enough
a lot of the stuff becomes predictable where we've talked about it in the past it has
there's some framework that every single car
has that goes up into the stratosphere
and a lot of them start with you know there's not that many
of them usually there's not that many if there's an
experience and it's called analog yeah that's also to be fair though
don't misconstrue that because you know there's people that get really
in the weeds to be like well I have a jade green
you know 2003 Boxter s and there's like
13 of these that were made it's like okay you'll probably get a little bit
of premium bump on color when you want to resell but don't think that your
car is going to carry the like the
next thing would be is can it carry the weight of the gen to make the
car go up yeah but it does that that would make sense because
you're like what's your market of that yeah because
that even if it's an outlier on its own say like comps on that car normally like
what 15 grand you're like okay your car sells for 25 okay sick
yeah noise
we're really out of here see it see it
About this episode
Cold roads, missing GT3s, and Porsche’s quiet exit—P-Car Talk Podcast bounces from winter rally realities (no meaningful heat, pitted windshields, and rock-throwing tire grip) to Nürburgring 24-hour hype and Manthey. The conversation then turns to Porsche’s broader corporate shakeups: job cuts, EV strategy doubts, and how timing/accounting can make “losses” feel different. Finally, the hosts dig into the GT3/911 market—why listings dry up, how prices spike around age thresholds, and what that means for buyers.
Ruckus is in the rearview and the roads delivered. Cold weather, beautiful scenery, and rock chips that serve as a reminder you actually drove the thing. This is what it's for. No complaints from anyone in the crew — the kind of event you start planning to return to before you've even unpacked.
The Headlines: Porsche Jobs, Nurburgring, and Luft Atlanta
Porsche is cutting 500 jobs tied to ongoing revenue pressure and nobody here is happy about it. We never like to see people lose their jobs — full stop. On the racing side, the 24 Hours of the Nurburgring is right around the corner, which means a lot of sleepless nights ahead for the right reasons. And for the enthusiast crowd, Luft is headed to Atlanta this October. Last year it was North Carolina, so the southeast is getting some real love on the calendar right now.
Vanthoor to McLaren — And What Porsche Isn't Saying
Laurens Vanthoor is joining McLaren's hypercar program on loan from Porsche for 2027. No official announcement about what this means for Porsche's factory team presence, but the crew has seen this movie before. When Porsche starts farming out factory drivers and running every livery they can on the factory car, it's usually a preview of an exit — the same pattern played out before they stepped back from the RSR program. Nothing confirmed, but the read here is that Porsche is pulling back from that factory hypercar effort whether they've said so or not.
997 GT3s Are Gone — And the Price Is Whatever the Seller Wants
The 997 GT3 market has reached a point that only a handful of models ever hit: the cars aren't listed because the owners aren't selling. When they do transact, it's a phone call, not a listing. Word of mouth, private deals, specialty dealers with one car every few months. A 997.1 GT3 with a minor Carfax note and 60,000 miles is moving at $175,000, and the crew doesn't think that's anywhere near the ceiling. The reason this happens isn't complicated — as more people enter the Porsche world and chase a real driving experience, demand for the cars that actually deliver it concentrates. Supply doesn't move. Price does. The only honest answer a seller can give a buyer right now is: find me another one.
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