Driving Bugatti's final W16, the EV U-turn and Linglong tyres | evo podcast | Episode 29

When are you getting manager? I didn't know about this. That's James's class. It might be an expensive steak, I think. Welcome, everyone, to episode 29 of the EVO podcast. I had a bit of a summer break, so welcome back. We have Yusuf James and John with us. Hello. Hello. It's Steve talking of breaks. Yusuf just came back from a holiday in Jordan which involved a camel.

Yes, yeah. Different kind of test drive, that one. Yeah, two hums or just the one? Just the one on this one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good ride. Good ride. Good second drive as well. Quite, quite smooth. First of all, is it quite phenomenal? It's quite thirsty. I think it's about six to the gallon in the end, yeah. Big fuel tank. Big fuel tank, yeah. It's long and endurance. Endurance fuel tank, yeah. Right, the end of our travel travel correspondent, Chris. Let's get back to what we kind of sort of claimed.

To know about cars, what have we been up to? Before you went away, the other side of the world in the US, weren't you? Yes, driving the Mustang GTD, which isn't a diesel Mustang. Some people seem to do when I tell them. So yeah, that was really interesting. Kind of a GT3 RS rival. This has been waiting for us. Yeah, it is. Yeah, because we've got the dark horse, which is kind of a little bit more track focus, but not really transformative. But then now they've got three hundred grand.

Track car with Multimatic dampers, 800 horsepower. Yeah, how much is Ford performance or Ford racing? Now called again, isn't it? Yeah. How much have they done? How much has laryt Multimatic done?

Do you know what? It's a bit of a mix. I think all the suspension and kind of the hardware changes are Multimatic as far as I'm aware. But then obviously Ford performance set the brief of the car, which was to break seven minutes at the road. Yeah, I think the whole ethos behind it is.

They go racing with a GT3 Mustang in Sir and GT World Challenge. And they wanted a road car to say, look what we can do on the road as well and to go up against the Europeans.

So it has cracked it. It has done the seven minutes other ring, which is quite impressive. Yeah. But then you look at GT3 RS going three seconds quicker with 300 horsepower less.

Kind of puts it in context. It's a big mountain to climb, beating that car. Yeah, I really enjoyed it actually. It was a compromised launch.

Yeah, it's challenging weather. Yes, yeah. So in Palm Springs and for the good weather, actually, and then it rained and then it rained some more to rain.

Only a few inches a year there, but you had it all in the space of five inches of rain per year on average. And we got the thunderstorms. We got all five inches.

Yeah, yeah. So not great. But I think it was a really friendly car. I mean, you look at it and it looks like a beast, 800 horsepower supercharged. But even in those wet conditions, you could just drive it like a Mustang and enjoy it and cruise around. It's got loads of torque, really friendly balance as well. So yeah, I really, really enjoyed it.

What tires was it on? So it was on the Cup 2 RS. In the rain. In the rain. And they're the widest Cup 2 RS ever fitted to a production car. So not ideal.

I think it's 305s at the front and 345s at the back. And they're bespoke to the car as well. Supercar size is 335, isn't that there? Yes.

Yeah, I think the GT3 RS is on 315s or 325s at the back. So this is even wider and obviously really wide at the front. Yeah.

And I think they just looked at the Nürburgring target and thought, what do we need to achieve that throw load of tire at it and make it work? And they have to be fair. It's a really nice, relaxed road car.

The other thing they've thrown at it is the trick suspension, isn't it? Yes. It's got proper active suspension. Is it similar to the dampers on the Ferrari Pro sandwich?

Yeah, they call it spool valve technology. So instead of using shim stacks, there's like a motorized hole for the valve in the dampers so that can change every millisecond or whatever it is really quickly.

And then you can lower the car by 40mm, like the 4GT. Yeah, a little bit like that.

Yes, so there's two springs. There's like a road spring and then a harder track spring. And if you press a button hydraulically, I think the softer of the two springs compresses fully.

So you drop the ride height and you're much stiffer overall on the spring rates. It's really cool to see it working. You can see through a window at the back the dampers compressed.

It's all in board as well. It's all in board, yeah. So it's completely new rear subframe. It's something that you kind of look at in the mirror when you're driving when you shouldn't really be here. That's a big bump.

On the Nürburgring body. Through floodplates or something.

Yeah, no, it was an interesting car. We drove it on track as well around the thermal club, Raceway.

That was wet and we weren't allowed to use the track mode. That's frustrating.

Yeah, that was a big frustration because it probably, I mean, we didn't try it but it must transform the car running much lower, must get the arrow working a lot more.

Why did they not let you? Because there was a dam patch into turn one.

I mean, all the cliches of American racing. I know, yeah.

They just not combed it off or something and then...

Yeah, it was compromised anyway because it was raining all day and they didn't let us run unless there was a dry line on the track.

Which there was towards the end, but we had like 20 minutes. So it was literally cars lapping coming into the pits, new driver swapping.

Go out again. Just to get the experience.

Yeah, and the cars were getting quite hot as well because we were in a kind of ducks and drakes formation.

Which I said wasn't kind of ideal because you're trying to assess the car and you've got a dark horse in front of you that you're following.

That's overheating the car with the hot air.

Surely a dark horse is so much slower than a GTD.

Yes, you're not going to be able to drive that car to its potential.

Yeah, exactly. I was quite surprised actually.

So we were behind a couple of pro drivers and in the normal mode in the GTD, I was expecting it to feel more like an arrow car.

Because I'd just been out of a GT3 RS for another shoot, an EVA shoot that's coming up.

And that you could just commit like you wouldn't believe in the high speed stuff, really reassuring.

But then this, it weighs two tons. It generates the same downforce figure as an RS.

I think with the higher ride height that we were running, it wasn't really working the arrows hard.

So it's working against itself really.

Yeah, so following the dark horse, I was like, for some reason I'm not really catching him as much as I thought I would.

And that car is really good in the wet. We discovered on E-coating, it drives really well in that range.

It's really progressive and quiet and quite friendly.

But also those ducks and drakes, things that you do on events.

Talking early before we were recording, weren't we?

They can actually be, they're not the sort of the thing that some of the manufacturers think they are.

They're not actually that safe or intuitive because you're following a, normally a lesser power car,

but with a pro driver in it that's maybe at the limit.

And you're trying to understand this brand new car, but you've got a car in front, you've got to follow,

you're conscious you've got people behind that need to be close enough to see where the track goes or what the team want you to try and do.

So you end up sort of just, it's like driving in packs on the motorway.

Not getting anything out of this.

Yeah, far safe.

If you just let me go out for half a dozen laps on my aid and I'll come in.

Because then you have to respect the car and the track obviously when you buy itself,

but I think when you've got a reference in front of you,

who's often a really quick driver anyway, pushes you into a new round way,

you're like, I don't really know what's going on here.

There's quite a big closing speed as well to the dark horse.

Overall, I did really enjoy the car.

I think it doesn't feel like a GT3 RS in any way really.

And you look at the spec and you think similar arrow performance,

and it's been like fully gone through with the suspension and everything.

It still feels like a Mustang.

Two tons.

Two tons, yeah.

And what does the race car weigh?

The race car.

I don't know.

I think that's...

The race car has a new tubular frame rather than the standard car.

It's on the front and rear, so different sub-rames.

I think it's a fair bit lighter.

But it does feel like kind of a big up and out you muscle car

that can do the dynamic stuff as well.

And it's really, really enjoyable, I think.

That actually sounds like quite an appealing blend,

and I want to do something with all the character of a Mustang,

but that capability on the track.

It's good that they haven't sort of eroded the Mustang bit of it

and just turned into a silhouette car.

It still feels and sounds, I guess, like you'd expect it to...

As it looks, you want it to be quite a big thing.

It's still sort of massive armchairs, or they put proper seats in.

It's the same seat, so that's probably the most disappointing thing.

That's really disappointing, actually.

Do you look at the outside and it's all bespoke?

Yeah, it's safe for how much?

Yeah, and you get in, it's like 300 grand,

and I'm in a 40 grand interior.

It's not, it's not pretty.

There's no bucket seat or...

So I asked about the carbon seats,

and they were saying that they can't adapt the normal Mustang seats

to have carbon backs and everything without losing the side airbags,

but you'd think that that price level you just developed

and you seat or something.

Yeah, be it off the shelf seat.

There are seats.

Yeah.

Or put a roll cage in to give it more racing vibe.

There must be reasons why not.

I'm sure they have.

It's just too heavy.

Yeah, don't put a cage in your way.

Yeah, we could put lighter seat in it, but no, that's a bit disappointing.

Because that's all, particularly a lot,

it's about being in the car, isn't it?

Yeah.

You don't have to always be driving it to its limit,

to feel special.

Do you say you walk out of it?

It looks fantastic when you walk out.

Yeah, it's an amazing looking thing.

And then you get in, it's like,

it's a herds interior with big seats in there.

Yeah.

Just cheap leather and things.

And they just say they were like the Porsche 911,

that's the same thing with the RS,

but I think that's starting at a much higher level in terms of the cabin.

And you do have the proper seats and the cage.

Of course, you do.

Yeah, pretty special.

That's disappointing.

Yeah.

Well, that's the review of Mustang Seagster.

Yeah.

Will we get maybe another time in the car with a less compromised opportunity?

I hope so.

I think perhaps next year we'll have more time in it on a prop circuit as well in the dry,

but at the moment there's just not any cars in Europe to test their all prototypes

and it's quite an expensive, limited kind of shows that it's not cars knocking around.

No, but agreeing aside, what sort of circuit would suit it, do you think?

It looks and talk about the arrow.

It's like a spa and a poor record of very silverstone, very quick stuff.

Yeah.

Does it work?

Do you think it will work on other circuits tighter, more sort of complex stuff?

Or is it more arrow and just you need the quick stuff?

I think compared to something like a GT3,

it's probably a car that you're not going to be at the limit the whole time when you drive it.

So it almost doesn't really matter what kind of corners you're driving it on,

because in the high speed you're managing it anyway and it's a bit slippy slidey

and there's a lot of weight going on.

Then in the low speed you've got the same kind of thing.

So it's more about the experience I felt rather than absolutely nailing a lap time.

So I think it'd be fun pretty much anywhere.

Okay.

That's with the provider.

We didn't drive it in the track mode.

And that could make it an error.

Yeah.

It should have a spa or something like that.

Sounds like it could be quite fun on the road.

Sounds like it could be fun on the road.

Yeah, it was.

I mean, it was absolutely pouring with rain.

815 supercharge horsepower.

Which wasn't ideal.

But it's quite a friendly car.

I think again, the standard Mustang comes through in a good way,

because it doesn't surprise you.

And if you put in too much, it'll give you back too much and start sliding around

and being quite awkward.

But other than that, you can just get into a nice rhythm with it

and enjoy the engine and not push it too hard

and just enjoy being in it, I think.

It's a really cool thing.

That's cool.

And so, moving on from two tons of fact-mokers,

muscle cart, our lightweight driver has been in the car.

I've got a bit of a bit of weight-swing racing there.

Our lightweight specialist.

Don't listen to that, HR.

You've been in something that you've got one seat

that he's kind of moulded to add also on track.

So what have you been up to?

You've just got back yesterday, I think.

Yeah, I got back yesterday from the Red Bull Ring in Austria.

I've been driving the BAC Mono Cup.

So the BAC Mono, which we know is this beautiful kind of object,

object dart.

That's the right term.

But a sort of motorsport level creation, one seat,

two and a half liter engine, an incredible power to weight ratio.

It's like a single seat for the road, isn't it?

Yeah, it's sort of as close as you can get to a forming a car

with number plates.

And that you can drive on the road.

They're now going to go racing with it.

But in their own one-make series.

How many cars are they hoping for?

So they're hoping for 24 cars on the grids.

It's going to start in the Middle East to begin with.

Yes, because he's not there.

They've got a big dealer in the Middle East.

Yes.

That's doing a lot of work with getting the cars out there

and expanding that customer base.

Because these sort of small bespoke manufacturers sometimes.

They've been amazing products.

But they don't sort of branch out that far from their home turf

because just the cost and doing that.

But they've had a back in the Middle East for a while now,

haven't they?

Yeah, just expand it.

They actually sell the Mono to more than 40 markets,

which is amazing for such a specialized car.

The VLC pinpointed a customer in each country that just wants.

Because it's a very selfish car in a way.

Because it's only one thing.

And you can't say you're the experienced.

Yeah, you've got to have lots of other cars in your collection.

Yeah, and obviously most of the customers,

it's not their only car.

I've got a few other interesting things in the garage

or garage as plural.

But it's always been built to kind of motorsport standards.

With the rollover protection and all the crash structure

has a Formula 3 gearbox quite literally.

And in fact, the closest thing it is,

in ethos it's kind of a Formula 3 car.

It's got that side intake,

a bit like a rocket launcher on the side of the car.

So it will be a kind of a rive and drive series.

So rather than the cars being sold to race teams or individuals

who take them away,

you just rock up that there will be a fleet of 24 cars.

Every car will be totally equal.

And then we use swap cars per race.

They have talked about potentially doing that,

because they say that did that with the coupe for a challenge.

Oh, maybe.

Didn't you?

Yeah.

To stop all the whole thing of,

well, that car's quicker than the car.

Yeah, it's like a rive and drive car.

Yeah, literally, you could just get a duck,

you could get the duck one.

Yeah, one of the used to swap ECUs,

you could pick your ECU out.

Of course.

Yeah, so there's no cheating on the other side.

Well, speaking of karting,

that's the format they're thinking of doing

is kind of heats and final.

And maybe you maybe have a reverse grid

for the second heat and stuff.

That could be the ultimate stag do then.

Imagine that.

Yeah.

When are you getting managers?

I didn't know about this.

That's James's class.

Yeah.

It might be an expensive stag,

I think.

Oh, it doesn't matter.

Yeah.

We'll suck it up.

We'll clump together for our expenses.

Can they handle it?

Is it road legal then?

Yeah.

Although it retains the road legal element of the mono anyway.

Yeah.

So initially it will purely be a race series,

they're concentrating on that first,

but there will be customer demands.

Some customers will always want the hairiest,

hilarious, fastest version of a car.

And it can be converted to be road legal

with fairly minimal observation

because it's so closely related to the regular mono.

It is a race car.

Yeah.

Anyway.

It's like reverse engineering and reverse again.

Yeah.

Back to the same swap.

So that's kind of yet to be, you know,

kind of fully a part of the mono lineup,

but in the sort of near future,

you could conceivably buy one

and drive it on the road.

And actually, as well as driving on the track,

you know, drive it around the paddock for photography and stuff.

It's really tractable at low speeds.

It has a clutch pedal.

The turning circle is great.

It will get over bumps and things.

But on the track, it's so intense

because the engine is two and a half liter

four cylinder engine.

It's a mountain engine revs to 9,000

and it's a stressed member of the car.

And then, you know,

you're a bit like a form of car.

Engine gearbox rear suspension is mounted to the gearbox.

So all the vibrations are kind of coursing through you.

But the braking performance is amazing.

It's, you know, composite brakes.

Motorsport spec ABS from Continental.

So your braking distances are already so short.

Because the car, it's something like 550 kilos,

dry, and then fluids only add to 25 kilos.

So it's well under 600 kilos.

So it's the quarter of a GTD.

Yeah.

Third.

Yeah.

It's generous.

And the day we were driving it on was a Pirelli event.

Or kinds of cars.

Because it's on special slick tires,

developed by Pirelli.

So it's on the control tar for the race series.

Yeah.

Exactly that.

Yeah.

And also, for the first time, all carbon wheels for BAC as well.

So, you know, your unsprung mass is, you know, tiny.

And it was really incredible how late you can leave the braking.

The acceleration is one thing.

It goes like a rocket because it doesn't weigh anything.

And the way it turns in and gets through a corner is remarkable.

But, yeah, there's that big uphill braking zone at Red Bull Ring.

And you can be sort of flat out in fifth at a point where, in another car,

you'd be heading for a horrible accident.

And you just leave your foot absolutely pinned.

And then when you hit the brakes, the way it hauls down the speed,

and then you turn in the responses instant,

it's another level to so many cars have driven.

Yes.

Really, really.

So, when is a series for 26?

So that's the plan.

It'll be 2026.

I think it'll be a winter series taking advantage of the weather there.

And also means drivers who want to race and other things as well could do this series as well as other ones.

So, I think the first date is all TBC.

But this...

But all on mid-least.

Yes.

Or potentially the JEDA circuit from the one circuit, perhaps.

So, yeah, it should be a really exciting series.

They've also got the latest race logic system.

There's these three little antennae on the front of the car.

And you can live stream the footage from in the car to drivers could stream to Twitch,

or YouTube, or something like that.

If you're watching the race, you can watch it.

Yes.

Choose which drive you follow, and so on.

Yeah, really exciting.

How much is the car?

Probably looking at something like $300,000 to take parts in the series.

That would include the whole package for the whole season.

So, all the race support, some testing, all the events, and so on.

And then in terms of an individual price, if you just wanted the car,

that'll probably be at a later date because the concentration for the time being is the series.

But it still has all of the visual appeal of the normal mono.

It's just as beautifully finished as that car.

It's almost like a sculpture to kind of walk around and take in.

And, yeah, I need to start winning the lottery.

Yeah, I was going to say, when can I expect your pitch of awe?

I think we should go somewhere warm in the winter.

I'm still working on that.

Yeah, I thought you'd wait for the right moments.

We're talking of weather, John.

And then the other end of the spectrum,

you've been enjoying one of the world's fastest, most powerful cars in some very British weather.

Yeah, well, I've tried to enjoy it.

Yeah, flew to Basel, and then...

Did you manage to come out of the airport at the right side?

Yeah, because you can go to Switzerland, if you can.

Yeah, because it's cornered by, or it's boarded by three countries, I think.

That bit over there.

Yeah, so it's down the Alsace region, sort of, between France and Germany,

mainly, with a bit of Switzerland there as well.

And we flew out on the Sunday, and it landed, and it rained, it was raining,

and didn't get much sleep, because the rain was so heavy, battering the windows.

And then, next morning, turn up at the Chateau, the Bugatti Chateau,

and there's our 5 million euro car.

It's a little fabric roof stretched across it.

So he started, yeah.

And it didn't stop raining.

So it turned an eight-two-mile-an-hour car, as proven by our friend Andy Wallace,

on a slightly damp circuit, Papamburg.

With 1600 PS, you know, 1500, and something horsepower.

And it just was so cold and so wet, it was, you know, there was not the opportunity

to let the thing loose.

Because the roads were quite narrow in the vineyards, and it was all puddley and wet.

And I had Bruno Spangler, who was the DTM champion in 2012 alongside constantly,

checking tyre temperatures.

Nice, very low, aren't they?

Very low tyre temperatures.

And then he showed me, there's four dials down the centre.

And there's two modes.

And the second mode shows you what the maximum horsepower he used is.

And for most of the morning, it was less than three hundred years.

I thought, I've got it. I've got it.

So finally got my foot in at one point.

And I thought we got up to 829.

Half the potential, half throttle.

That's probably enough.

But the noise, because the little fabric roof,

traps you inside with the air intakes.

Now I've driven them McLaren.

And that is a pretty wild noise.

It's very staccato, you know, gathering torque.

But this is all turbo-wush.

And then when the second set of turbos come in, it's like a lion's roar.

It's completely ridiculous.

And this is a swan song for that engine, isn't it?

Yes.

Don't you think there's any more special plan or think is it all?

Well, they have to get these, they're building nine,

they're building a hundred, they're keeping one.

Because they keep all of their record breakers, I think,

which are all black and orange.

So they've got to build the 99 for customers before the end of the year,

because that's when the home obligation for the W16 engine runs out.

Okay.

So they've got a hard stop on that.

So it's quite busy there.

A bit of it is.

And that engine, though, has been,

it's evolved since Veyron, hasn't it?

And you've driven Veyron's when they were near,

you've driven them recently.

Can you tell the difference between an original W16 and the latest?

Well, the noise was completely different.

I think the Veyron, it's a very bassy noise.

There's not much trouble, there's no high notes.

It only revs to about six and a half.

So it's more a torquey engine that sounds torquey.

There's none of the high notes that's done there,

like the Revuelto, which is completely different coefficient.

And in this one, if you're very gentle on the throttle,

you can just get that beat, the percussive, big capacity.

So it sounds like a V8 noise.

But then it gets completely consumed by this massive turbo choice.

I think you are next to the turbo.

It's going to suck your hair into the intake manifold.

Maybe for you.

So yeah, it was an experience,

but it wasn't the experience that you'd want.

So you now need to have another go in the dry.

Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely.

We have another go, please.

Yeah, Mustang GTD and WGAT.

Yeah.

Nice run too.

Nice warm circuit in Abu Dhabi, maybe.

Sounds good.

Yeah.

So you were allowed to drive a GTD in Palm Springs

because there was a small puddle on the corner.

Of course.

Yeah, a puppy-sized puddle on the corner.

You were given a five million euro,

1600 horsepower hypercar on cup twos.

On cup twos?

On cup twos.

In properly European dreads.

It was very many images are quite special, doesn't it?

Like a mat.

That's like with a saddle.

You've got to shout out to Matt Hell,

because the jacket he packed proved not to be waterproof.

And it just didn't start raining.

He was a proper trooper.

Yeah.

These were tockers.

Once they get going.

Once they know they're wet, they just.

Yeah.

They just don't say they did a cracking job.

Yeah.

Bruno Spangler alongside.

I mean, the talent that they've got as a chaperone

is pretty impressive, you know there.

So it's Andy Wallace and Bruno Spangler.

Yeah.

That's a pretty decent roster, isn't it?

Yeah.

It is pilots.

It's actually quite nerve-wracking, isn't it?

When you're sat next to someone like that.

And even though they can appreciate the conditions are awful.

It's like driving with poor ripples, isn't it?

You've got to be with the best behaviour.

It's like driving tests.

Yeah, absolutely.

Because at any time.

I don't know what you're doing back to the factory.

Yeah.

All right.

So yeah.

So they're finishing off W-16s and mistreats.

But did you see anything of the new tube along the line?

Yes.

That was in the...

Obviously there's the shadow, the famous shadow.

But the sort of sales bit of it is in another new building.

And there was a turbulent sitting in the looking magnificent.

And I think it's the loudest car.

It didn't fire while we were there.

But I've seen it a couple of times at a proven ground somewhere.

And every time it fired up, no matter where you were,

on the proven ground, you could hear it.

It was so loud.

And of course it's going hybrid.

So there's 1,000...

So I think it's...

Is it 1,000 horsepower from the engine and 800?

Yeah, it's...

The EV.

The battery.

EV.

Yeah.

Because it is since...

But the EV is all about performance, isn't it?

Yes.

Some of the Porsche systems, it's all about performance boost

of a performance rather than efficiency in terms of driving around with an 800 horsepower electric engine.

Yeah, so yeah, I think it's a 9.5,000 RPM V6 days.

V6 days?

Yeah.

Which is like an engine from the 30s.

Yeah.

So yeah, imagine the whip on the crank.

Cosworth have built that.

They build all of these bespoke, naturally aspirated, supercar engines, don't they?

So yeah, that's going to be...

It's going to be like a mega revuelto, I'd say.

Cos you're going to get that, all the boost when you need to load down to get it going,

then the engine's going to take over.

That's what I should have called it, the mega revuelto.

Or in the same family, can't you?

Yeah, I didn't realise that since it became RIMAQ, Bugatti or Bugatti RIMAQ.

I think it's Bugatti SES.

They can't use error less than any more to do the next few revs.

Cos they're not actually officially...

So they come out, they're too disconnected from the group.

Yeah, yeah.

It's portions 40%, I think.

Yeah.

They're back on to the rest.

Yeah.

Yeah, so that's why they were at Pat and Berger.

Interesting.

Yeah, it's too interesting.

But yeah, the Toby on is going to be a mega.

I don't think.

We've mentioned it before and stuff, isn't it?

It's...

Focus is that V16 engine.

Yeah.

I think everyone, when Matte came in and took control of it,

it was going to be heading down the electric hypercar route.

And he tells a great...

When we went see the preview of the two belong...

Oh, when was that 18 months ago?

I think now when it's first revealed.

Yeah.

When he went in, he was presented with what the next product portfolio was going to be.

And it was all EV.

And he was like, why are you doing this?

This is not what someone who spends this money wants.

They don't want an electric hypercar.

I know this because I make them.

It's kind of not what you expect.

And there you go.

Yeah, the EV, maybe.

He just understands what people who buy these cars, what they want.

And you can't force people to buy stuff.

As the wider market is now very quickly and very painfully discovering, isn't it?

But yeah, it's...

My set was...

Well, I don't know.

It wants to buy two million euro 2000 horsepower electric cars.

Why should we have a whole portfolio of them at the next beganities?

They should be...

What Bigatti stands for, which is ultimate engineering, exquisite engineering and design engineering.

And that's...

Yeah, it's all over him.

Yeah.

That's what the customers want.

But yeah, it's...

It was interesting to listen to him when he mentioned that.

There's a sort of...

Quite a few people were taken aback expecting that, well, okay, you'll do this now.

But the next one will be electric.

No, no, it will be...

Yeah, because it was almost as if he's been gifted Bigatti because they need to make it EV.

And there's nobody who makes a better EV than...

Yeah, than RIMA.

And then it's...

Yeah.

And then it's just turned...

Yeah, quite spectacularly.

Not just...

I mean, we haven't...

I was at an event yesterday for the late Ian Fraser.

And so it was up in Norfolk.

And we were...

Everyone's car people up there.

And one of the topics of conversation was...

Someone had seen a Lotus of Vi on the road.

And maybe it was on the A11.

So it was Norfolk.

And they might be going either back to Heathville or coming from Heathville.

Yeah.

But those cars have just disappeared from everything, haven't they?

Navarra's, Petistas.

Yeah.

Avias never really appeared.

Mission X got silently sort of pushed to one side by Porsche.

And then that trickles down to what's now happening with the mainstream stuff.

I mean, the big story was Porsche announcing...

Actually, we're going to wind back our EVs.

We're not doing our big electric SUV to sit above.

The Cayenne sports cars.

So the box of Cayman replacement is happening.

But we're going to offer it with...

Turn like a bushing engine as well.

But it's been quite vague and ambiguous of what that is.

We think it's going to be GC4s and spiders with the GC4s.

Top end stuff.

Putting ice engines and p-heav.

So plug in hybrids into...

It's called the Cayone at the moment.

It's just code name, isn't it?

But the Cayenne Plus.

Yeah.

Tycan sourds are not great.

Audi e-tron sourds.

Yeah, it's not just Porsche everyone in that top end sector.

Caught a massive cold.

Almost a pandemic, you would say, of sort of no one wants these EVs.

And then when the likes of Warren Buffett dumps all these BYD stock,

you kind of think...

It's not the writings on the wall.

But Chinese EVs are...

There's going to be a load to the point where it's a big correction.

And it starts with the hypercars.

I think, well, that's the perfect way to get the performance

that what a hypercar should be.

But it's now impacting everyone.

And it's not...

It's not a case of how we told you so.

It's all just build V8s.

Because it has a huge impact on everything.

Yeah.

Because it's talking about accelerating the development of a new range of ice

and p-heav cars down to three years.

And you kind of worry, what are they going to be like?

Are they going to be any good if you've cobbled together?

And then you've got...

So JLR used the BMW V8 engine.

The BMW hasn't future-proofed it to run without hybrid.

So anyone else who's using it, unless you've got a hybrid system,

you can't use the engine after...

Whenever the Euro 7 regs really kicking.

Mercedes-Toyotron, Salantis, started to push back finally on Europe for 2035.

Saying, this isn't going to be workable.

Not because we don't want to do it.

But it comes down to the consumer demand.

So we're not going to build cars, and someone's not going to buy.

So if you force us down this way, we will build fewer cars,

which means we will sell less cars.

We don't need all these stuff.

We will make huge jobs.

We're going to get a lot of kind of effects of that.

Oh, the huge air in the portion I'm doing there, battery factory.

You do wonder that...

Is it now the industry is starting to wake up from it?

We're too big to fowl to realize that they can't be led by legislators.

Which is more than done.

They've been done by the legislators and investors.

Put your money in EVs.

And we're back here.

Back in something that doesn't have a sustainable future, it's...

But we said it earlier, an event we did, didn't we, earlier in the summer.

If you had said 15 years ago, EVs will go from zero to mid-20s market share.

You'd laughed and go, that's not possible.

But they've done it, and that's actually a huge achievement.

But is it going to get to full capacity?

No, we're near.

Because you'll either...

If all you end up building is EVs, and there's no consumers for it,

you won't sell any.

And people will just hang on to their cars for longer.

Well, you've got to have that flex to give people the products they want,

speaking to an engineer the other week.

Their target now is for 200 kilometer electric range on their plug-in hybrids.

So if you give someone 120 miles of electric range with a really efficient internal combustion engine,

as well almost as a range extender as much as a powertrain,

you get zero tailpipe emissions in built-up areas and urban areas

which no one's ever going to complain about and is the right thing to do.

But you've got...

You give people the flexibility of what a car gives you that freedom.

Yeah, it's a very pragmatic solution, isn't it?

It seems to think, well, why didn't I never think of that?

Or push that to start with, but it was such a race, pure EV.

You skipped that whole hybrid,

and then we've had the narrative of hybrids are inefficient

because you're carrying around two partners.

But the development in the background has actually led to lighter, more efficient...

Quite clever cars.

Very clever cars.

Because they're benefiting from all this accelerated EV development,

so their batteries...

You can take all that battery-learning and motor learning.

And software learning.

Yeah.

But it is a bit of a scary moment when you see...

It's a lot at stake, isn't it?

Huge amounts.

And they're big on the industry.

Yeah, big legacy manufacturers, aren't they?

Huge industry.

As we've seen with journalists...

Sort of attack.

Yeah.

The effect is... you know, it affects countries.

Yeah.

And you're having legislators sat in their ivory towers saying,

do this because it keeps this vocal minority over here...

Mine quiet.

And it doesn't look good.

It's a good headline.

That was when they announced...

sort of these cutoffs for internal combustion engine production.

They just relied on the fact that the motor industry is very responsive and can pivot

and develop things really quickly.

But that, as you say, that's come in stuck against consumer demand.

Yeah.

You can force the manufacturers to make them,

but if the customers don't buy them, then suddenly...

Yeah.

It's not viable option, isn't it?

You can never make it force a consumer to spend their money on something they don't want.

Yeah.

And that's what they've tried.

And the EV prices are coming down.

And the China slowdown is surprise-a-prize because the government have taken away the incentives.

You kind of think China is very good at seeing what happens in the rest of the world and adapting,

but did they not see that when Europe took away all its incentives,

people stopped buying electric cars.

And then the governments had to reintroduce one in the UK,

but you could already get 10 grand off of Cooper-born and no one was buying it.

Yeah.

So how much more do you have to knock off the price of an EV?

Yeah.

Outside of the fleet business where you're...

You're from a company car scheme.

That's your only choice, but private buyers...

You've mentioned it many times, aren't you?

You just keep your mark five gold or whatever you've got.

Yeah.

And it is an aging sort of car population, isn't it?

Yeah, the car of our age has average ages gone up to nine years.

That's interesting.

Which is surely good for the environment anyways, isn't it?

The average age has gone out.

Part for the emissions.

Yeah, yeah.

It's a bit of a...

It sort of supports that because the average mileage has dropped as well.

The average annual mileage has dropped.

If you think people are back to work in offices and stuff, but not everyday.

There's less commuting.

There's less travelling.

I mean, the roads don't seem to be any quieter.

But yeah, so there's more used cars in the marketplace on the road,

but they're all doing less miles than they used to do.

So it's a bit of a worrying time for the industry,

because it impacts everything, you know, from...

You know, catering as you discuss on another podcast, you know,

they run out of engines.

They're going to find an engine supply.

Yeah.

These manufacturers haven't forecast or budgeted for a new range of engine development.

And they're now having to do it.

So switch the development back on.

Yeah.

And it's running.

You can't just switch the machines back on.

Yeah.

Yeah, that was the certainty that was given by government, wasn't it?

We are definitely going on this route, and these are the...

Yeah.

And they were talking over us.

Yeah.

Are you sure about this?

Yeah.

Are you sure?

Yeah.

Okay, we'll have one in a minute.

Yeah.

You should sometimes ask engineers what the best solutions are.

Yeah, but you do have some very good ideas.

Not at all.

And some famous russian advice from people who...

No, they're subject, are they?

Yeah.

But you could so out of the sort of the pain at the moment

that a lot of people are experiencing across the whole board.

There will be, I think, some fantastic solutions.

Well, as you say, the engineers will be suddenly...

They're...

They're a problem.

Yeah.

And they'll own it.

And they'll come up with some really innovative stuff.

Yeah.

I think that will be quite enjoyable.

And hopefully, my big hope is that

weight will now become top of the agenda.

Yeah.

Because...

If you're going...

If you're moving from a hundred percent EV

and you're going to...

You have...

One of the things you have to get the weight down to make

efficient as possible.

Yeah.

And, therefore, hopefully, take the footprint down as well.

Don't need such big cars.

Stop building cars for people who can't control their diet.

And then five of the ways more than the range are over.

Yeah.

Madness has been...

We've been legislated into building bigger and heavier cars than ever.

Which have not kind of facts in environmental impact.

And that's exactly the point, isn't it?

The industry and consumers have been legislated into something

that doesn't work.

And it's not because we're not all...

We're the one percent that...

Love cars and we'll buy whatever.

Do whatever you can to drive the best cars and own the best cars.

But 99 percent of people are cars and necessity.

And it's a necessity because, actually, the legislators

haven't provided an alternative.

And now they're dictating your only source of transport.

And it's too expensive and it doesn't fit people's lives.

Yeah.

Yeah, hopefully out of this bit of thermal origin at the moment,

the industry will come out with some interesting products

in the near future, which will be good.

That's probably good plan to wrap up the first half

because we're going to come back in the second half

and talk about the fascinating topic of tiredness.

But not just in a way of how can we destroy them?

Quickest.

John.

Yeah.

Jack Spoket.

Yeah.

So yeah, we've got my biscuits, John.

Oh, I forgot.

They are in the back.

I'll bring my hands.

I'll bring my hands out.

So we're going to be on the team.

And we shall see you back in a minute.

Right, welcome back.

Everyone.

John's been down the cash and carry.

And, uh, caramel.

Rockies.

Yeah.

That's what we're basically biscuits you find in your independent petrol station.

Yeah.

They're not the best but they are cheap.

Yeah.

Seven bars as well.

A lot.

A number of bars.

Yeah.

96 calories per bar.

That's quite high for something quite small.

Yeah.

Best for 2020-23 as well.

I'm really glad.

Yeah.

One for every day of the week.

Hopefully this week.

Yeah.

I think that's the end of our food.

Participate in the wrong way.

Our travel advice, isn't it?

I don't take anything from us.

When it comes to food.

Um.

So we're going to talk about tyres this half.

Yeah.

We're going to start with the back to the mono.

Because that came on.

You drove that on a, uh, pretty slick.

That's right.

Yeah.

And one thing we didn't talk about earlier was how it compared to the Dilara and Radicals

that you spent a lot of time in this year and previous year.

What are those cars?

A slick tyre on a car that is, you know, the mono is a road car.

The Dilara you can get as a road car.

What changes when you stick a slick on those cars?

Yeah.

Those two cars are the two closest things I can think of to the mono.

Because it's such a unique, unique thing.

And with, with slicks, they're a weird creation because when they're cold,

it's like driving on ice.

There's no grip at all.

And also when they're brand new, you have to be so gentle with them.

Because if you tear the surface, that's it.

You've kind of snuck at yourself.

So you have to, in some ways, bring them in quite gently.

And in other ways, be quite aggressive to get heat into them as quickly as you can.

With the mono, they put tyre warmers on for me.

So they kind of took some that worry away.

And also because that car is so light and they're so little inertia,

it warms them up really efficiently and you feel the confidence to push quite quickly.

But in other heavier cars, they can feel really odd on slicks to start with.

And also the way the side walls deflect is a bit different.

So you drive some cars, you sort of go down the pit lane and it feels a bit like,

you know, when you step on a trampoline.

Yeah, that's slightly sort of tremmiless kind of feeling.

But the mono, it really seemed to suit them.

And I know previous mono's when EVO magazine has timed them at Anglesy.

The mono are, which for a long time was the quickest thing,

we'd ever put a stopwatch on.

And that was on slicks when it say it's time,

because they do seat the car so well.

It's not really an arrow car, the BAC.

So things like the Radical and the Delara, huge amounts of downforce.

In fact, the Delara, the steering, that famous scary corner at Anglesy,

up the hill we've talked about, the steering was became so heavy,

it was almost like going to the gym and doing a sort of on an exercise machine.

Was that from arrow load or just purely from arrow load?

Yeah, I can't remember the figure off the top of my head,

but it's a one-to-one downforce to curb weight ratio on the Delara.

So it's where it is.

800 kilos of downforce, 800 kilos of car, something like that.

Whereas the mono, it's actually all about mechanical grip.

It develops a little bit of downforce.

It's definitely negative lift.

But I think the racing's going to be really good,

because it's all about managing the tire and the car slides a little bit.

If it's all mechanical grip, slicks are famous,

because they don't really give you anything bad to manage, do they?

They give you all the grip and you've either got it or you haven't.

Yeah.

So if they've got more feel into it so you can manage it a bit more.

I think some of it is the really low central gravity,

because you're right down on the floor and you're in this laid back driving position.

I think it's something like 45 degrees.

It's the same as an F1 car, but your feet aren't raised up.

So actually you get in.

And the first thing you try and do is sit up to sort of see over the top of the wheels,

because you're so low in the car.

And I think to your question, in much heavier cars,

slicks are weird, because they give you all the grip in the world until they don't.

The edge is much snappier than a normal car.

If you're driving a car with tread blocks, you have that nice squidgey edge to it.

And it's easier to get the car sliding and hold it,

whereas slicks, the grip sort of falls off of a right angle.

Yeah.

And then you spin or something.

I think in the mono, because it's low central gravity, light car.

It kind of works all four corners in a more progressive way.

So you almost settle into a nice little four wheel drift in it, which is really cool.

It's also like a go-kart, if you think about slicks.

And they're quite progressive and you drive them with a straight wheel and just slide it around.

Yeah, you just have this tiny amount of lock to sort of get it into the corner

and then you almost hold it with the wheel straight.

Yeah.

It's almost like a cart.

The tires have become, they're always the most important thing,

because the only thing that connects you to the road is that you don't know what the car is.

But you draw our tire test, John.

What have you noticed over the years of just annual time at Jagger as well,

actually developing cars, how integral now is a tire to a car's development

and how it sort of sets some of its characteristics?

Well, everything is bespoke these days on the high performance stuff it seems.

You don't buy off the shelf anymore.

Everybody has had a go at whether it's performance related

or whether it's just refinement it can be, you know, the comfort that the car delivers.

Everything is within margins.

It's adjustable to suit the characteristic of your particular car.

I mean, we do our tire test, obviously, off the shelf.

It's not a specific thing.

And what's interesting, you're on about China earlier,

is the brands that are now coming up.

I think the 30% of the market is all the big brands that we know and love,

rich, down, good, year, continental, rally.

They're all the, they only account for 30% of the market.

The other 70% is upcoming brands.

Who are those upcoming brands?

Well, these are handcooks.

Now, handcook is pretty much there already.

Perhaps not in our sphere of the summer performance,

but in all season and winter they're pretty competitive.

But Linglong, she makes people smile.

But Linglong have done a tire which Mr. Litchfield swears Mike

because they do all the tuning for the GTRs.

And there isn't really a tire that can cope with that mass

and that the level of performance that he's giving people

on a track day that lasts a day.

Apart from this, I think it's a Linglong N1,

which is a really heavy tire,

but it works with the Nissan.

It's like a GTR on Linglong.

It's like red flags.

No, we're all pretty much, we should be tire snubs.

Whenever you go to a second hand car,

the first thing you do is check the tires.

It's on rubbish tires.

You have a different brand on each car.

Yeah, all rubbish tires.

So what we do with our tire tests

is we always put in a budget tire.

Now the reason for that is partly because 70% of the market

is these budget tires.

You know, the stuff that you chuck on if your MOT car fails its MOT.

You haven't got the money to hand,

chuck a couple of cheap tires out with tread.

And that's really not,

it doesn't work out very well most of the time.

Just to this year's summer tire test,

which you'll be out in the issue that...

Yes, there'll be an issue that's about land and online...

Roughly two weeks from today.

Yeah, yeah.

...in sort of this month in October.

So yeah.

And I do the tire test for what it's supposed to be.

And Linglong did really quite well in their winter tire test.

So these brands are up and coming

and seen another test European magazine.

And Linglong summarised on quite well as well.

So they know that there's always bigger profit

in premium products.

So they want instead of selling tires at 90 quid,

they want to sell them at 130,

you know, along with all the other big boys.

So this year we did 235-35R-19.

Good field, eight tires plus our budget one.

Now the reason for including the budget is not just

because we need to see what the market's doing.

It's to show the contrast between, you know,

a high quality tire and...

So we get a few money.

Yeah, exactly.

And this year's tire,

we go through a German wholesaler.

So everything we buy is from the open market.

So there's no tire manufacturer sending you the tires

and then you think, is this kosher?

You know, is it a natural tire that people buy?

Yeah.

So we get them all through a German wholesaler

and they get shipped to the tire test.

Still to say, which this year was Rome.

We were hosted by Bridgestone.

And the budget tire we chose this year was Cormorant.

Now the budget tire...

I think my cat caught one.

And I only found it afterwards

because we just...

they have a list of tires that they can supply

and we've used...

I think it was one called Triangle one year,

which is a great name for a tire.

So we just looked through the list.

We haven't used one of those before.

We'll go one of these.

Subsequently, it discovered it's...

it advertised itself as part of the Michelin Group.

So it's a Polish tire company.

And the tire that we used was called the Cormorant Ultra High Performance.

Well, it really wasn't.

I always think...

The best way to Michelin Group was it more the chef's side.

Yes, probably.

Because it was a bit of a dog's dinner.

So if you imagine in the Olympics,

you have Elite Athletes lined up eight of them.

And then imagine you put a guy from the local running club

in the ninth lane.

This is how it usually works out with the budget tire

because they all go off and drop their budget one.

And this one was really quite interesting

because the key test for tire makers is wet braking.

That is where you need your performance.

And the best tire, which I think was a bridge stone,

from 50 miles an hour, it took 27.5 meters.

And then the Cormorant, same test, same speed,

39.5 meters.

So that's 12 meters.

So that's more than two Mercedes S-class.

That's crash, isn't it?

But yes, because the speed that you still have,

it's quite a big crash as well, isn't it?

It's all sizable speed, isn't it?

And this test issue was on a BMW M135i X-Drive.

Yep.

So mostly rear drive until it needs to shovel some torque to the front

if there's slip at the rear.

And in all the other tires, that was never an issue

on the wet handling circuit, which is always the best bit.

You come out of the corner and it maybe just takes a bit of attitude.

So it's down on the rear.

Just takes a bit of attitude and off you go on the Cormorant.

It was like a drift car so early.

And then you were coming out with opposite lock on.

Right.

And then through the faster curves, it was teaching on the air.

It was fun.

Oh, it was fun.

Because it is, isn't it?

Yeah.

But it was slow.

It was eight seconds a lap slower than the best tires.

Yeah.

Which might be fun when you know the road as you do with a circuit.

You learn the circuit.

And then you try and be consistent with all the tires to get the best data.

So yeah, that was a bit of a shocker.

And then yeah, to discover later that it advertised itself as part

of the Michelin Group.

Michelin makes some of the best tires in the world.

You know, as we'll come on to it.

Yeah.

But yeah, that bespoke element.

The best example I've had of that was earlier this year.

I think I mentioned.

I went to Michelin's test track in Ladou to drive the tire

that they've made for the GT3 RS.

Oh, this is the Porsche.

The wet tire they've made for the GT3 RS.

Yeah.

I mean, we did our car of the year on Cup 2s.

Up in Scotland.

It was the good year equivalent to Cup 2.

So whatever, the Eagle F1 Super Sport.

Yeah.

Anyway, yeah.

And it was, it managed because you can turn the dampers down.

I get the supple mess and get the grip.

But this tire developed four Porsche with, I think,

your bird master did most of the development.

Top driver.

Lovely bloke.

And around the wet handling circuit, which was a 90 second lap.

It's a really interesting wet circuit as well.

It was ten seconds of lap quicker.

And on the dry circuit, I mean, this tire is supposed to be good

between five and fifteen degrees.

It's perfect for, you know, autumn, UK.

And it was only a second or two slower.

Then a Cup 2.

And it felt brilliant, just as adjustable and flexible.

So, yeah, bespoke tires.

You know, that is an alternate example.

But most performance car makers will produce the tire.

Yeah.

And it was initially, wasn't it?

Oh, here's our statement mission and a name of conventions.

You know, pilot sport or pilot five S or S5.

Whatever they could change it to confuse us.

Make sure the subs are awake when they're breathing.

Yeah, absolutely.

You would be Porsche or Mercedes or being obviously,

we want our spec of tire for that.

But it's now gone beyond that.

It's now some of them are modeled by model, aren't they?

Yeah.

Well, here's a Cup 2, but it's a Cup 2 for GT3, more in RS.

And then it's a Cup 2R.

Yeah.

We had a call this morning just before we were doing

talk to Maserati about MC20 GT2 Stradali.

It has a Cup 2R, which is a Cup 2R just for that car.

It's not on off the shelf.

You do wonder whether you're going to get to the point

where you can't buy enough of the shelf for these tires

because they're all bespoke to these cars.

Yeah.

But it's the way of getting the performance out of the cars

and a lot of it now is in the tires.

You can't get any more powers.

We've talked about before the break about emissions.

There's going to be even more, so powers are going to come out.

Less power.

So you're working on aero, but actually people can't experience

their own.

This is really high space.

It's tires that are going to make the difference.

Yeah, I wonder what the driver is to,

because it's keeping stock of tires.

If you've got 30, 40 different Michelin Cup 2Rs

for all the different cars that have had their tires tailored to them,

is it going to make that much difference

if you put a stock off the shelf version of that tire on it?

Yeah.

Is it going to invalidate and warrant it?

Or is it just the margin?

Is it more the insurance companies would use it as an opportunity?

That wasn't a BMW Marked tire, but it's exactly the same tire.

Yeah, you'd have to have Michelin to say,

here's a spider graph of grip comfort

and all the different characteristics of the tire.

And it's still within that margin, because I'm sure it is.

It must be because our M5 touring long-term is on the

two-and-a-bitt-tum estate car, it's on a pre-DP-0R.

But you can also get an M5 on a handkerchief.

And when we did the twin test against the Panameroos and handkerchiefs.

Yeah, which is designed for that's the comfort day to day,

but you also offer a performance tire and package.

So they must perform within the same bar graph in terms of wet braking.

But they both got a BMW Mark on the side of them.

If you were to put tires on that didn't have that mark,

what's the ramifications from your insurance company?

What is the difference?

And it would be marginal stuff, it would be feel and...

Yeah, that's a steering response maybe.

You know, the precision response.

But they...

I wonder if there's some driver somewhere for, you know,

performance cars get their lap, you know,

lapped by magazines to fit in tables like we've got one of them.

Yeah.

And if you can fit a sticky tire that's an option to your car

and move it up the order.

Well, how do you find your extra seconds against your competitive

the nerve-wrong for example?

Yeah.

Well, here's the standard tire, a continental,

but oh, you can also have a cup-two or a defaer or an option.

Yeah.

And that's what we're set.

Then it becomes a standard production car set in the lamb time.

But as we've discovered sometimes just how quickly those tires can go off, isn't it?

Oh, yeah.

You've had it with the McLaren off-ready,

how many angles is it?

Yeah, that's right.

You've kind of got a two-lap window.

It's a qualifying tire.

And then you go off and then you know,

if you have a cup of tea, let it go down and then go back through the wall,

and it comes back.

Which isn't how people use the car track at the same time.

It's not a track day tire, then you're set.

Yeah.

You want to linger on.

Yes, yeah, yeah.

Which one does take the abuse all day?

I mean, going back to the point on weights, I mean,

the BAC, back to the mono briefly, they fit some pretty spicy tires

to the road legal monos,

and they last a really, really long time.

But they absolutely, it's a very light car,

and it's not putting 750 horsepower through.

I think I did a whole championship in Caterham's case series

on one set of tires.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because nothing wears out.

Yeah.

Geneta, they've changed.

They're now with Pirelli, but they're a academy series,

which is their series for new drivers,

which you know, did a round off.

You used to do a whole series or season on

Michelin Pilot Sport 4S tires.

Yeah.

And it's amazing how well they stand up to race.

They'll take a lock up.

They'll take a, you know.

It was very slippy slide, wasn't it?

Yeah.

I mean, it was, yeah, you had to work very hard.

It was about 60s racing cars.

Yeah.

Just doing that whole thing.

And with the going through the heat cycle thing,

and qualifying, you'd see drivers would go out,

they'd do two quick times,

and then they'd back right off.

Yes.

And crawl round.

And then come back.

In the race, you can't do that.

Yeah.

So all the first that's lapsed,

the race would be on sort of lap three and four.

Yeah.

And then the lap times would go off a cliff,

and at the end,

so all the drivers are throwing away in the wheel.

Yeah.

I've forgotten how to drive.

Yeah.

But it's interesting.

When I was interested.

Did the GT3 RS and Manta,

the MR version, at Emola,

the difference in actual performance

between a Cup 2R and a Cup 2

wasn't huge,

but the Cup 2R would only last two laps.

So, you know,

are you good enough to get the benefit of it?

What is the overall benefit?

We've just done,

Do you see if in Dickey have just done a test at Anglesy

with an RS and an MR Cup 2Rs,

and then Cup 2Rs,

perhaps about which is a video that's about to drop,

I think, is the word.

Yeah.

And for those of you not,

it's about going to our YouTube channel.

And that was a really fat,

because it was at typical Anglesy,

we had all seasons in one day,

and it absolutely chucked it down in the morning,

which we're a bit concerned,

is going to make the track really green,

but actually,

from the last time we've had an RS up there

with Cup 2's,

we were able to get more out of it,

weren't you?

The consistency between the lap times,

all the time on the Cup 2's,

on both cars actually was really consistent.

Yeah, I think it was eight tenths quicker

than when we last lapped an RS in the same tyres.

I remember that day,

it was a slippy day.

Yeah, because you had the,

you and Dickey were both struggling with the 750s.

That's right,

because you just couldn't get it's hand out.

Yeah, really traction limited,

yeah, as you say.

Great for a good video clip, though,

on RS.

It did, yeah.

Fourth gear over.

I was working quite hard, yes.

Yeah, yeah.

But that was really interesting,

because we had standard RS,

Manta RS,

and with the standard car,

sorry, with the Manta,

we had a Cup 2 and a Cup 2 R to try.

Standard car was just a Cup 2 R.

And I went out first in the,

in the standard car on the RS,

and it felt great,

and I was like,

really, how is the Manta

going to get close to this,

or beat it?

And then I drove the Manta RS on Cup 2's,

so not the RS,

and they were very close.

And I thought,

is the Cup 2 R really going to make that much of a difference?

And then it went the second and a bit quicker on the RS.

And then when you think about how much work has gone into the Manta,

with the Aero and the Suspension and everything being bespoke,

with the geometry and things,

for the Cup 2 R's to make the same amount of difference

and get that much ahead,

it's all in the tyre, isn't it, really?

Yeah.

Yeah, well, Porsche,

certainly, Andreas,

you sat down with him a couple of weeks ago, didn't you?

Yeah, they've said with the GT3,

they're not chasing power anymore.

The performance can come from Aero,

but that's a very high skill set for driver, isn't it,

to work the Aero on a car.

Yeah.

But the tyre is a much wider,

sort of operating window for more people to experience a performance game.

Yeah, because I think they did the same lap time.

So the Manta on the Cup 2 R's did the same time.

So the Manta on the normal Cup 2's did the same time

as the normal RS on the Cup 2 R's.

So the difference in the tyres

is the same as the difference between the mechanical layer

to the cars and things and the upgrades from the Manta.

I suppose also the way a car works,

its tyres are different as well,

whether it's Aero or damping or geometry,

it can switch the tyres on differently.

It's really a confidence thing I found,

especially with the high speed stuff at Angle C.

You can use more of the track and you feel more confident

to just wind on a bit more steering lock

and the car's going to bite.

And you need to think about your technique less.

I think it's still equally hard to just drive the car.

Yeah, you just drive the car without thinking

or I've got to manage something here or get it turned in.

There's also a bit of the circuit at the top of the hill

where if you're driving a car you don't trust,

you end up on the left of the track

as you're approaching a tyre with a tando.

Whereas it's a car you can feel you can do what you want with.

It's much easier to drag it back over to the right

to get a better line.

And even if it's a car that can do that

and take the proper line,

but isn't feeling trustworthy,

you're less likely to get it right every time.

Yeah, whereas there's something more consistent

like the Mentai on the Cup 2Rs,

you just every lap is consistent

but on the right part of the track.

Track stuff is great.

We don't all live on the Cup 2Rs.

Yeah, I wish I did.

And on road, because we're older,

we've experienced these Cup 2s

and track tyres being put onto road cars

over the last 20 years.

They weren't always great, were they?

Well, no, the one we were talking about earlier

was the E46M3 CSL,

which came with a disclaimer, didn't they?

A disclaimer, a passenger seat.

Yeah, you've got to buy it.

I think it was a Michelin Cup tyre.

It was a Cup 2Rs.

That was the first time that was on a road car,

wasn't it?

Yes, it came with a laminated piece of paper today.

You've got into this car,

you're now liable to get to it.

Yeah, it's decided whether the conditions are suitable

for the tyre.

Because if it's cold and wet,

it's all new.

If there's an hour in the month,

which you can get your head in there,

you can get away with that these days.

I couldn't put that sort of disclaimer in a car.

No, not just lift.

Well, I mean, no, it's still dirt.

But I think the tyres,

you say what, been advances in tyres,

there was legislation a little while ago

that came in to say that those sort of tyres

have to have a minimum amount of performance in the wet.

So they have to be able to clear a certain amount of water

and they have to deliver.

And they do, don't they?

Well, Anglesy tipped it down in the morning

and still able to actually go out and get,

we won't use any of it,

because the weather's awful.

But you could still drive the car.

It wasn't, they're not all over the place.

You've had it on the road as you say in the car of the year,

almost good years on the RS,

in weather that we were like,

and even Porsche were like, are you sure about this?

Yeah.

And the Traffaos that you get on,

McLarence, we've had seven,

just looking at a 765LT on a lovely new wall.

That was on Traffao R in the borders.

Yeah.

There was a couple of days of inclement weather,

but you still enjoy your car.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

You're mindful of it's always in the back of your mind.

But there's still some weird decisions being made on certain tyres,

isn't there, with certain models?

Yeah.

And 135R.

It's about say BMW,

which is bizarre.

Yes.

Which is bizarre.

I think for that car, it's quite,

it's quite hard to make it feel like a proper hot hatch,

because it's based on a mini platform.

We'll drive essentially, but this one is full wheel drive.

So they've just thrown everything at it

to make it feel aggressive and grippy,

which it does,

but fundamentally it doesn't feel like a proper hot hatch.

It just feels like a really grippy normal car.

It's no 1980s MR2.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

You're not getting anything back from it, though.

Yeah.

You're just getting loads of grip,

and then, I guess, no grip.

Yeah.

Lots of obviously.

Yeah.

Yeah, the limits is in the chassis, isn't it?

Yeah.

It's very tight.

Yeah.

And the Peugeot E2R8 GTi is also on Cup 2.

Yeah.

It's normally electric cars.

They want the lowest rolling resistance possible, don't they?

Well, there's a, I think there's a bridgestone also available,

but it was revealed and launched on a, on a Cup 2.

With those really dramatic wheels as well.

Yeah.

That you could see through the red filter,

then they'd use almost a master car,

which was weird and soaked in the photographs.

But it's,

they've got a lot of torque.

So, but you don't necessarily just want a really grippy tire

to manage the torque.

No.

You want to put that management through the chassis

and the damp engineering property.

Yeah.

And engineering, yeah.

Yeah.

It's always been, when a car turns it on,

what tires is it on?

What's, you know, we've, as you said,

Michigan have always been sort of the top of their game.

But there's other brands that have been in one area,

they've offered something.

It's a beginner, 26.

Oh, wasn't it?

It came on.

Toilet, triple eights, were they?

Triple eights.

Which sounded like a Land Rover tire.

Yeah.

Because they were so little tread on it.

Yeah.

And the original NSX came on those.

Yeah.

The Carmas, didn't they?

Yes.

Gosh.

Which were, I'm going to get this wrong there.

That's a metaphor, weren't they?

Yeah.

So you had to put, you had left, right?

Directional.

Directional, the whole.

Four different tires.

Four, basically, four different tires.

Yes, sort of.

Raced arm, you know.

Yeah.

And arms.

Yeah.

But they were every permutation you can get

rather than just, oh, it's a directional.

It's also a left-hand directional tire.

Yeah.

So it's been around for a while, but we all know

when you get in a car with the wrong tires, don't we?

I think we borrow some cars before from,

we're very grateful for readers lending us cars

and they've been in these cars.

But sometimes they turn up and it doesn't feel right.

Yeah.

You have to feel how I remember it,

especially when we go in winter.

Yeah.

Yeah, we do have some friends at various tire makers

who, Tony Fretches, who will donate a set of tires.

Yes.

Yes, thank you, Anthony.

Great to be with you.

I was so continental.

Yeah.

Samara does a good job there for me.

Yes.

But they're interested in how we're running an RS6

and that comes on an optional, well, it's not an option.

It's an option you have to tick,

but you can't order the car without tick in the box

and it's a wise option.

A high performance tire, which is the continental sport,

contact 7.

Okay.

When we first got the car, it felt really hard-enched,

sort of quite an unsettled ride,

constantly sort of a vibration and frequency three.

That's odd, because that's one of the best with the surprises.

After it did about 6, 7,000 miles, smoothed out, brilliant.

And those tires are done,

so Henry puts some winters on it for 3,000 miles.

So that car did 16,000 miles on a set of conties.

Didn't need to be placing it.

We went in for a service other week

and they put brand new tires on it

and now I'm back into the right car.

You're running the tires for another 6,000 miles.

Yeah, but it goes back at the end of November,

so I've got to do a lot of miles to try and get back to that.

Stick it on a rolling road.

You think that when you wear them out,

you get less tread and less compliance,

but I guess they soften us at the time.

Does the sidewall sort of become more pliant?

So we know, he's got no sidewalls.

He's got no sidewalls.

It's on rubber bands.

You wouldn't expect it.

It doesn't really make sense,

because you don't want the actual stability of the tire

to change at all.

You don't want consistency, don't you?

It just feels really hard when they're new.

It just takes a while to sit on that.

But initially I was like,

oh, do I get these changed to a predi,

or a Michelin, or something?

But once they'd bedded in and run in,

it was brilliant.

And that's done five,

not track days,

but we've been using it as a chase car

for a lot of filming.

Normally chasing Dicky around a circuit in a AMG or something.

And it's got 25 kilos of camera gear bolted to the front of it.

And it's done all that.

It's 16,000 miles of those continental.

They were phenomenal.

Pointy question.

Are they bespoke to the car?

They're an Audi,

an Audi spec car.

Yeah, comes back to it.

They've respected it to the performance.

But they're obviously,

I'd say they pulled a lever on my leg as well,

because that's pretty remarkable.

Yeah, a lot of my miles are just quite tedious,

but then you throw it.

Well, you've done some driving.

How many for the filming?

Yeah, around Silverstone.

Around Silverstone.

Yeah, it's on Silverstone.

It's on Brown's hatch.

It's a heavy car.

Good wood, which is all speed.

Yeah, good wood works too.

It works really hard.

Yeah, because while Alfa Julia,

which was on the preny's,

would do a lap on a half.

Yeah.

And the side front would be absolutely tremendous.

It's tires so quickly, that car.

But they were super soft,

weren't they?

You spot in my first long term.

How do you get that's the other way of getting grip into it?

Very soft compound.

Yeah.

Super sticky, but very smoky as well.

Yeah.

You're funny enough for photographers prefer parallies

because they make more smoke.

Oh, OK.

And Michelin.

And they're a trunk skimming off the tires.

Yes.

So that's a slightly specialized requirement.

Or maybe your...

Your cormorant tire.

Yeah, it's a saving brace.

We should add a smoke test to the tire.

Yeah.

It was like a D1 GP.

It was also fairly awful in the dry as well.

I've got it.

It's squealed and it was...

I was at a US tire that would do 100,000 miles before it.

Yeah.

Certified.

Guaranteed mileage.

Yeah.

Rock hard made out.

What's that all about?

Do you think you'll ever test an airless tire, John?

The weird thing about tires is that these innovations

they come and they go.

Yeah.

I think there's so much...

And increasingly there's so much that they now know

how to make tires really, really good.

So unless it's a very specific application, I think.

The standard tire is sort of performing brilliantly.

It'd probably be like driverless cars and taxis and stuff.

So if you get a puncture, they can just keep driving like that.

Good point.

Yeah.

Nothing has a spare wheel in it anymore.

Yeah.

As an aside,

if you get a puncture with a car without a spare wheel

and you'll strand it,

if you ever come across the guys that come along

with a fully balanced tire, the tire is balanced.

They don't have a balance actually on their van.

So they fit the tire and the tire is pre-balanced.

All right.

To just a generic.

That assumes that the wheel is all balanced as well.

Yeah.

And the weight's haven't come off when you've hit the pot.

Yeah.

Which is why I hadn't.

When she hit the pot, she was very good.

She kept the weights on the tire.

But the weights would have been there for the previous tire.

Yes.

Yeah.

And the tire is a non-branded tire.

Yeah.

That sounds like a lot of wheel shape to me.

Yeah.

I mean, it's not too bad.

But I do need to get it changed.

Yeah.

But yeah, I was just at the side of the road.

Obviously, I got phone calls.

I'm at the side of the road with a puncture.

Can you come and get me thinking that

I wasn't then going to be stood at the side of the road

because Mrs. G went home in my car.

And the brakes are up and trying to find a fit to the worst.

At all, I need to balance it.

It's a nice tires of pre-balance.

So the tire itself is pre-balance.

Yeah.

Maybe they're all of the, maybe wheels are more consistent.

Yeah.

So what, how did that happen?

He didn't just see a car with a puncture.

No, no, you phone the AA and then they say

we're prioritized women and children and they don't.

So you don't have to tag them in social media

to say my wife and daughter at the side of the road

in the dark with a puncture.

It was a good way of speeding things off, isn't it?

So then the AA turned up and said, yeah, that's a puncture.

They're like, yeah, I know.

They're called a firm that comes out.

And speaking to the guy,

they just do all the motorway stuff.

It's to get people off motorways and things.

Yes.

And because they're not balancing,

which is the, you know, that can take some time.

Right.

Getting a wheel, balancing.

He's gone into a pot hole.

It's literally just an emergency.

Get you off a motorway or get home.

Yeah.

I imagine it's rock hard and it will last forever.

I don't know how they balanced that.

I don't know.

It must be just a basic weight to put into the tyre.

How?

Yeah, stick it to the rubber.

Interest someone.

Interest.

But yeah, anyway.

No, no, no.

Have a look into that.

Yeah.

They have to give you one in a minute.

When I take it off the car, I'll bring it back to the office.

Yeah.

Yeah, do.

I like to look at that.

Yeah, I'll find it.

I don't think it's one of those weird things.

It's got its skunk works or secret.

It's got no branding on it.

It's the tyre.

It's the T-Tress thing.

And loads of tread.

What tyre is it?

What corner?

Front near side.

Okay.

Yeah, with a usual pot hole side.

Yeah.

I see.

So around the rack.

That's just going to be straight on.

Yeah.

Great for the Indy 500.

Yeah.

That's the only way to tie it.

I think we probably exhausted.

Tires are going to be flat on the topic.

Oh, you can do it.

You can do it.

Go around and get it.

Yeah.

I'm sorry about this.

Yeah.

It was probably a good time to wrap this up.

I haven't done this for 29 episodes,

but if you do enjoy this,

can you like and subscribe?

Apparently, we've entered it from episode one,

and we haven't.

But yeah, thank you for listening to us rambling on.

We will be back next time to use it.

John James.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

We'll see you all next time.

Thanks so much.

Driving Bugatti's final W16, the EV U-turn and Linglong tyres | evo podcast | Episode 29

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