EV Pulse Reunion

This isn't just a game, it's a once-in-a-generation event.

The Harlem Globetrotters 100-year tour.

Celebrate 100 years of high-flying dunks, 100 years of showstopping moves, and 100 years

of changing the game.

Bring the whole family and be part of the legacy.

This game is once in a century.

Be there at MotorCenter on January 24th.

Go to HarlemGlobetrotters.com for your tickets to the 100-year tour.

This isn't just a game, it's a once-in-a-generation event.

The Harlem Globetrotters 100-year tour.

Celebrate 100 years of high-flying dunks, 100 years of showstopping moves, and 100 years

of changing the game.

Bring the whole family and be part of the legacy.

This game is once in a century.

Be there at MotorCenter on January 24th.

Go to HarlemGlobetrotters.com for your tickets to the 100-year tour.

And this is episode 428 of Wheel Bearings.

I am Sam Aboual-Sammet from Telemetry.

And I am not.

Well, who are you?

Hello, my name is Chad Kirschner, hopefully friend of the pod.

And I'm back to talk about-

Well, since you're back again for about a third or fourth time now.

I suppose I didn't go so badly.

I didn't go so bad last time, so yeah.

Well, we did have a few complaints, but you know.

Yeah, I mean, probably from the other host that you have this week, actually.

There is that.

Speaking of which.

Yes, and I'm Craig Cole, back by unpopular demand.

I was just on here last week, so.

Well, here we are again.

Nicole and Robbie are on the road this weekend.

And Rob, Nicole, or Robbie and her and his wife are somewhere on vacation.

And I think Nicole and Russ are doing the same thing somewhere.

So.

Decidation, what's that?

Big, big time to have a little Evie Pulse reunion.

Yeah, right.

Pour one out for Evie Pulse.

Yeah, it's still out there in the air.

It is.

It is. Jason Sue still put stuff up there on a regular.

Oh, really?

Yeah, it's it's a long story that we don't talk about on air.

But, um, yeah, no, it's it's good to see Craig.

I saw him a little earlier this year on the everybody in him.

Yeah, the everybody in their mother, RAV4 program, which

which I like to the RAV4 a lot.

And I am genuinely surprised, Sam, that your

Nectoic or I guess to say former Nectoic colleagues

didn't select it as the finalist.

Yeah, I guess, you know, it does bring that

not to bring the negative side of that up.

But I mean, I am surprised it wasn't selected.

There were there was a lot of utilities

on the list this year as there has been in in previous years.

And so, you know, they the three finalists in each of the categories

for the North American car truck and utility of the year were

announced at the LA Auto Show this week.

And for utility vehicles, they they picked the Hyundai Palisade,

the Lucid Gravity and the Nissan Leaf.

And I think, you know, each in its own way, you know, arguably,

you know, I, frankly, I would not I would not classify the leaf

as a utility vehicle.

I wouldn't either.

But, you know, it's a car.

It is.

Is that, you know, aside from that or any more guys,

the auto makers call whatever they want, whatever they want.

Yeah, well, exactly, which is why, you know, I had, you know,

pushed for the idea that, you know, the the Nectoic jury

should also classify things how they saw fit rather than how

the manufacturers saw fit.

Well, I think at a real high level before we talk about that,

because you had the Lucid, you have the Lucid Gravity or just had it.

I do. Yeah, so I'm probably right now.

Yeah, so I'm really curious about that.

But I think at a real kind of 30,000 foot level,

does there need to be a car, truck and utility of the year?

Because like the truck category, it's always hard to fill that

from my understanding.

But like this year, it was like a trim.

And one was just an engine option, not even a trim.

Like it's two of, yeah, two of the three, you know, are, you know, not.

I would not have even considered them

qualified to be talking about the Ram 1500 Hemi.

Yeah. So in the trucks, you had the Ford Maverick Lobo,

which is just a trim level of the Maverick.

You have the Ram 1500 Hemi, which is literally just

an engine option. And I'll end the badge.

The simple purchase badge. The tachyous badge, the Tim badge.

Yes, the Tim badge.

And then, you know, the Ram 2500, which, you know,

is significantly updated for 2025.

Right. And the F1, there was the F150 Lobo,

which was just a stick to the package.

So the Maverick Lobo at least had some other stuff to it.

The F150 is wheels and stickers.

Yeah. And then the mid-cycle of the Rivian R1-T.

Was on the long list. Yeah.

I can't remember. Was that the quad?

I think that was from last year.

No, actually, I think it was the quad motor.

Yeah. Was because the R1-T mid-cycle came out in 2024.

So the quad motor was on the long list.

So basically not a trim kind of.

It's just, well, yeah, it's just another powertrain option.

You know, so it's not an all-new vehicle.

So, you know, I think I think they really need to take a look at,

you know, what is going to qualify, you know,

and I think they need to rethink some of these things.

You know, what what goes into what category?

You know, what actually qualifies, you know, for for trucks,

you know, and for the others as well.

I would have replaced I would have replaced the Lucid

with the RAV4.

Not that the Lucid's not any good.

I mean, I don't know. I'm in Germany.

Yeah, you know, I think I think the RAV4 is definitely an improvement.

You know, we talked about it back what a month or two ago after we drove it.

You know, it's it's certainly, you know,

in terms of its position in the market,

it's way more significant than the gravity.

Just, you know, it was last year and so far this year,

the number one selling single name plate in the United States market.

You know, it sells more than the F-150, but it's, you know,

there are some things about the RAV that, you know,

there were some questionable decisions.

You know, I think the interior was a lot.

Especially on the limited, like you're spending that money with it.

Or, you know, or the GR Sport, you know, same thing with the GR Sport.

Toyota is very good at efficiency and reliability, of course.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.

Yeah. But it's, you know, anyway.

And then the one area they fall short in is hiding where they take cost out of things.

Yes. They're not very good at that.

Especially in this one, you know, it was very obvious where they took cost out.

You know, there's a lot about the interior

that even on the GR Sport and the limited, you know, feels kind of cheap,

which, you know, that disappointed me.

You know, the driving experience was definitely better,

especially in the plug-in hybrid.

But the plug-in hybrid is not going to be available till next spring.

And so it'll, it'll, based on the way they've been doing this,

it'll probably be on the list for next year.

The core models, the RAV4 core models.

I know you were talking about this, but like I like the core models,

the updates there a lot.

The two non-core models, the Woodland and the GR Sport,

are still confusing to me after I've driven them.

Like, I understand what they're trying to do,

but I didn't, I wasn't feeling it.

Even the GR Sport, like you had, I mean, you were both there at that program

at some point, like you had to really risk going, potentially going to jail

to really kind of feel the difference in the suspension tuning.

And it was nobody's going to drive the car.

Nobody's going to drive a RAV4 like that.

So I don't like the body.

I mean, nobody's taking the Woodland off-road either.

Automakers just love to.

No, but they don't even have.

And introduce special trim levels that are low cost for them,

but they broaden the lineup, you know, it's just.

Well, as much as I've personally criticized Rock Creek,

the Nissan Rock Creek stuff, they at least try to put under body

protection under there.

Yeah, it's cheap plastic.

It's cheap plastic.

Yeah. It's not going to hold up.

It's not going to hold up under anything, but I believe an effort was

at least made where busy Woodland or not busy woodland, I'm sorry, RAV4,

but Woodland just has some rigid fog lights.

Like that's that's the difference.

And well, it does have the mold, you know, the lower part of the bumper cover

is molded to vaguely look like a skid plate.

Go ahead and use it like one then.

No, I mean, I just it does seem to make a little bit less sense to me,

especially when in the same showroom you have a RAV or not a RAV,

I'm sorry, a forerunner, which.

If you're going to kind of do what what Woodland is going to do,

you're probably just going to be happy with the forerunner.

And the new forerunner is really good.

I know probably scenes, obviously, but just I see a lot of confusion

until you're at a showroom, which is why I liked the.

Looking way off track, I'm sorry.

But why I liked the Salterra, the first in Salterra,

a lot more than I like the BZ4X, they were the same car.

But I felt like it's not that either one was particularly good TV,

but like I felt like the Salterra made much more sense in a Subaru showroom

where there isn't a bunch of electrification and plug in and crossover

kind of kind of stuff where in Toyota, you walk in there and you're like,

well, here's a mediocre EV, but here's a plug in RAV4

and here's a plug in Toyota Prius.

And here's like just all of these other kind of better in that case,

better sort of options.

So I don't. Yeah, I don't think, you know, they the the new

BZ and Salterra are way better.

I mean, they are, you know, I think fully competitive vehicles

in their segments now and and they're priced more aggressively

than they were when they launched, you know, the the pricing, you know,

they Toyota Toyota announced the pricing for the 2026

RAV4 this week for the hybrids, not for the plug in hybrids,

you know, it ranges from thirty one nine for the base

LE, which is a few hundred dollars less than it was last year

up to the limited at forty three thousand three hundred,

which is more than it was last year.

So most of the trim levels are a little more expensive than they were last year.

The base model is slightly cheaper,

but not many people are going to buy that one anyway.

They can at least advertise and say, look, it's lower price than ever.

Right. And that's that's why they do that.

And everyone's and every single one's hybrid now.

Yeah. So, you know, the cheapest the cheapest RAV4

you can get now is more expensive than it was last year

because you can't you can't get a non hybrid RAV4 anymore.

But it is slightly cheaper than than the cheapest

RAV4 hybrid was for twenty twenty five.

Yeah, that's a fun check.

Like the Grand Wagoneer like, oh, well, we got rid of the Wagoneer.

So the Grand Wagoneer starts twenty grand less.

But if you would have just priced the old Wagoneer,

it's five thousand dollars more.

Yeah.

Woo, market, love me some marketing.

We, you know, we won't we won't get pricing on the plug-ins

until probably some time in the early spring, late winter, early spring.

The differential on the old ones is what, like five grand or five.

Yeah, the the old ones, let's see.

The the plug-in hybrid SE the twenty twenty five was forty four, eight

fifteen and then forty eight, six eighty five for the XSE.

So my guess is that, you know, we will probably see those start,

you know, it'll probably start somewhere in that

you know, forty six, forty seven thousand dollar range.

And that G.R. sport will probably cost somewhere

between fifty three and fifty five, which is a lot.

That's the correct answer, Chad, shaking your head.

I don't know if I don't know if we share a video,

but I'm sure he's shaking my head.

No, that's yeah, that's not no, no.

But hey, it's less than the average transaction price.

So that's that's just right.

And, you know, the maybe the new plug-in hybrid RAV

does get 50 miles on a charge.

So, you know, it it is, you know, it's a

it can basically serve as an EV for almost everybody, almost all the time.

If you're assuming you have somewhere to plug it in.

If you, again, I will repeat our long running message.

If you do not have somewhere to plug in your vehicle on a daily basis,

don't buy a plug-in hybrid.

Just get a regular hybrid or an EV or any.

Well, well, yeah, yeah, if it needs a driver at the E.A.

Station, three hundred fifty kilowatts.

We don't want that.

Don't do that, folks.

Yeah, I don't do that.

Yeah, I mean, that's that's always everybody.

This is a rant that Craig has heard more times than I'm sure he cares to admit.

But like you have to qualify a plug-in hybrid buyer as a dealer.

You have to qualify the exact same way as you do as a bed of driver.

So like this idea that that that this P.

Have is the the sort of like.

You know, God leading the way.

It's it's the it's this crossover kind of device

that will get people into into a full electric world.

I think is is I think it's BS.

And well, I wouldn't go that far.

I, you know, I think it is a good bridge technology for a lot of consumers.

But again, with that stipulation, that it only makes sense if you have

somewhere to plug it in on a daily basis.

And if you can, if you can plug it in every night

or, you know, you have workplace charging and you can plug it in every day,

then, you know, you can basically use it as a bev.

But if you are not going to plug it in consistently,

then you're just dragging around four or five hundred pounds of dead weight,

you know, and you're going to get worse fuel economy than you would with the regular hybrid.

Not by a lot, but exactly what my barber does.

He has a Grand Cherokee four by E.

And he didn't know plug it in.

He didn't know. I mean, I see a lot of I still see

red and goers pulling into like E.A.

stations, trying to use the supercharger or the fast charger for.

It's like, did somebody not tell you this?

But, but on the other hand, though, I think E.

Rev makes a bit more sense.

And I think the difference is just like with the RAV4.

So like on that RAV4 program, at least on the way that I was on,

they let us drive the GR Sport first thing in the morning.

And they only wanted us to drive it on electricity only.

I don't know why they only wanted to drive it on electricity.

Because we actually got what it was.

They wanted everybody to have an opportunity to drive it on electricity only.

You could still drive it later in the day after the battery was right.

Right. And I did.

But on electricity only, that car does not perform as well as

in electricity and gas combined,

which most p.

Heves, though, most p.

Heves are going to, if it's not using the gas engine to help,

you're going to get OK performance, but you're not going to get best performance.

And in an E. Rev, since it's always an electric vehicle,

you get the full Bev performance sort of all the time.

And I think that, like, especially in larger applications,

like Grand Wagoneer, pickup trucks, things like that,

I think that makes a lot of sense.

But I think because you get 150 miles of range out of an E. Rev,

like that's one of those kind of that's kind of one of those platforms

that if you live with it every day,

you really you really start to realize how little you use the gas engine.

50 miles a day, even to the European 70 miles a day.

Yes, most people, 95 percent of the people are going to fall kind of under that.

But you're still used in psychologically,

you're still using a lot of electricity of electricity capacity

when you go out.

If you have an E. Rev that you get 150 miles on,

you're really going to then see, man,

I never used this gas engine.

And I think that really becomes a bridge kind of technology.

So like with a scout or with,

you know, if slantus ever ships the truck with it,

like I think you I think you go by a scout with the with the

harvester E. Rev in it the first time around,

you realize, gosh, I never needed I never knew that gas engine.

And then when you go around to rebuy the next time around,

you're like, now give me the full bath.

Yeah, unless you're doing a lot of long distance towing,

which case you'll probably stick with the E. Rev. Yeah.

This isn't just a game.

It's a once in a generation event.

The Harlem Globetrotters 100 year tour.

Celebrate 100 years of high flying dunks,

100 years of showstopping moves and 100 years of changing the game.

Bring the whole family and be part of the legacy.

This game is once in a century.

Be there at Motor Center on January 24th.

Go to Harlem Globetrotters.com for your tickets to the 100 year tour.

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And you're invited from legendary performances to bold new acts.

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bringing outstanding live entertainment to the community,

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Now is your turn to be part of the story.

Step inside and make your next night unforgettable.

Explore upcoming shows at ElsinoreTheatre.com.

This isn't just a game.

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The Harlem Globetrotters 100 year tour.

Celebrate 100 years of high flying dunks,

100 years of showstopping moves and 100 years of changing the game.

Bring the whole family and be part of the legacy.

This game is once in a century.

Be there at Motor Center on January 24th.

Go to Harlem Globetrotters.com for your tickets to the 100 year tour.

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All right, well, you know, that that tangent.

I'm sorry.

I'm going to talk a little bit about what I'm driving this week.

Neither of you had anything to drive this week, but I have the Lucid Gravity

Grand Touring, you know, drove the gravity back in the spring out in

California and was really impressed with it.

You know, it's it's a for a luxury three row electric SUV.

You know, I it's probably my favorite of of what's available out there.

You know, probably the closest the closest direct competitor to it would be

something like the Mercedes EQS SUV.

And, you know, I frankly like this vehicle a lot better than the than the Mercedes.

You know, the the Grand Touring, you know, is the trim that they launched with.

That's the the high end trim.

So that means it's got dual motors.

It's got 828 horsepower.

You know, it's it's a pretty good size three row.

A lot of people looked at its profile and said, you know, this is really

more of a minivan than an SUV.

You know, you could make that argument, you know, it's it's lower than most.

It's certainly lower than off road SUVs.

You know, this is this is not something to meant to compete, you know, directly

against the capabilities of something like a Rivian R1S.

It's, you know, if anything, it's more wagon, you know, probably the closest

thing, you know, to compare it to in terms of its form factor is the Ford

Flex or, you know, even even the the latest iteration of the Kia Carnival.

You know, that's that's kind of the the shape that it has.

So it's not as tall, doesn't have that much ground clearance.

Although you can with the air suspension, you can get it up to nine inches

of ground clearance.

So it's not meant as an off roader, although, you know, you can take it

on some light trails if you raise the ride height up.

It's the interior.

They made a bunch of changes.

You know, you can you can see the evolution from the air to this.

You know, so you still have, you know, big upper screen.

Although now the the upper screen is just one continuous display rather

than three segments like it was in the air.

It's got a squared off steering wheel.

You know, so it's more like everybody has to have that these days,

apparently, but I guess you see the instrumentation because exactly.

So I was going to get at, you know, you flatten the top so you can

actually see the the instrument cluster in front of you.

And then instead of the retracting pilot screen, as they call it

in the air that that can pull back up into the dashboard, this one

has has a fixed lower center display.

So you can excuse me.

So you can have different information on the two screens, you know,

so you can, for example, have your maps on the upper screen.

You can have your media player down on the on the lower screen or vice

versa. You can flip things, switch things around.

You can also rather than you can also have up to three widgets

in the right hand portion of the screen, the infotainment part of the screen.

So you can have one little window that shows you your map view

and media player next to it and something else in the third one.

So, you know, I think overall it's a pretty good layout and it's fairly

it's a fairly easy to use interface.

It want my one of my complaints with it is navigating around a lot of the stuff.

There's a couple of touchpads, haptic controls on the spokes.

Wonderful, which we're kind of finicky to use.

They, you know, sometimes they work and, you know, so that it's a combination

of, you know, touch and also clickable.

So, you know, for those old enough to remember the Blackberry Storm.

It's kind of like that.

So it's a, you know, it's a four way

rocker on each of these switches on the two sides of the steering wheel.

And then you can also swipe across those.

So, for example, on the right hand one, you can swipe up or down and go

between the full, full, full infotainment display, like just the maps

or just the media player or the widgets.

And I forget what the third one, the third option is there.

On the left hand side, you've got your controls for your cruise control

and things like that, which when I was out driving the other day,

doing a longer drive, I found that very finicky.

I don't know if it's a software issue or a hardware issue with the switch itself.

You know, sometimes if I wanted to adjust the cruise control speed,

it would respond other times it wouldn't.

So that was, that was not great.

Well, they've had issues with the air software too, I've heard.

Yeah, yeah, there have been issues.

You know, and, you know, it's gotten better over the years.

It was certainly a lot worse when they first started,

but it's still not 100 percent.

Lucid does have a lot of the stuff is in the touchscreen,

but they do have most of the key controls like temperature control

and fan speed and volume control with physical controls

across the bottom of the the pilot screen, the lower screen.

So there's rockers for fan speed and temperature.

You can also adjust those by voice if you want.

And then there's a roller for volume,

which works works fine, works quite nicely.

So they've got that.

And also it's got manual vents, which is always a good thing.

You know, no, you don't have to go into the touch interface

to adjust where the air is blowing.

That's, you know, that to me is as always a non-starter.

Overall, I generally enjoyed driving this vehicle, even though,

you know, I I have I don't have a need for such a large vehicle.

You know, it's not it's large, but it's not as large as, say,

an Escalade IQ by any stretch of the imagination.

But there I found driving and I hadn't recall noticing this

when I drove it on the launch drive in the spring.

But especially if you put it in the most aggressive

regen mode, the it's it can be a little rough,

like right when you're starting to move or coming to a full stop.

It's not quite as the control of the motors is not quite as refined

as I would have hoped.

It's not bad, but, you know, it could it could use some tweaking

on the the calibration of that.

And that's something you're going to like that's something

you really do notice.

And like, when it's not right, it feels it feels not finished

or it feels cheap to me.

So if I if I just spent whatever the Manroni or vehicle is,

that would be a real turn off to me, knowing like it just it has

to be a smooth, especially when somebody like Nissan on a 30,000

dial leaf can get that right, even though it did take away one pedal.

But that's right.

That's a different discussion. But yeah.

So, you know, overall, you know, I generally it's a it's

a beautiful interior on this thing.

It's got the full glass roof, which, again, you know, can be

a little problematic sometimes, depending on where the sun is,

because sometimes it can be hard to block the sun.

You know, it's got got the got sun visors up there.

But it can be a little challenging sometimes.

This is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

And then what does it cost to replace that damn thing

when you inevitably get a stone chip?

Yeah. Why?

It's going to be many, many thousands of dollars a hail ball

the size of a basketball.

Yeah. I just or some kids are throwing

stones off the overpass, not that there's anything wrong with that.

But that that has never happened in Michigan, has it?

It probably has. It's terrible.

But yeah, like, what if it what if something hits it?

Like, what are you going to do?

It's the same with like the MBUX hyperscreen.

You know, somebody's going to crack that thing one day.

And what the hell is that going to cost to replace?

I can't even just sell the car to scrap it at that point.

Right. It's it's told.

Yeah, that that can happen.

The one thing this car did not have yet,

the gravity does not yet have is the hands free driving assist

that you that is now on the air.

So it's got, you know, hands on lane centering

and adaptive cruise control.

Again, something I noticed yesterday

while going for a drive for a couple of hours

is there were on three different occasions,

the adaptive cruise control would just say adaptive cruise control

not available. No indication why.

It wasn't it wasn't a case of the sun,

you know, blinding the cameras or anything like that,

because it was facing the wrong direction.

So I'm not sure what was going on there.

So again, needs needs some work on the software.

But, you know, the the interior, you know, the seats are very comfortable.

The this one had massaging seats in it in the front row.

It's got second row heated seats.

The front seats are also heated and ventilated.

So, you know, most of the stuff that you would expect in a luxury vehicle.

One one thing that's kind of unique to the gravity

that nobody else really has is for the front,

they have an optional pad that goes in there,

that you can flip out and basically use it as a as a bench.

So you can open up the front and you can have two people can sit there.

You know, so if you're watching the sunset or something, you know, pull up,

pull up to the beach, you know, sit there, watch the sunset

and then fold the pad back into the the front, close the lid

and get back in the car and drive home.

There's there's plenty of cargo space in here.

You can get it with two or three rows.

The one I was driving has three rows in it.

It is very quick.

You know, it'll do sub three seconds, zero to 60 with 828 horsepower.

They what else was on this one?

There's also a performance, an optional performance package

that mine did not have.

And that gives you the

so that's the dynamic handling package that gives you a different airbag system.

So there's the standard airbag system just has single chamber airbags,

which is what was on the car I'm driving.

The dynamic handling package gives you triple rate airbags

of three different spring rates, three chamber system

that gives you a little little more control over

the wheel motions and body motions.

And it can lift it from between as low as five inches up to nine inches.

It also has rear wheel steering and painted brake calipers.

Oh, no, sorry, mine, mine did have that package on there.

The.

You know, I didn't do much, you know, aggressive driving in windy roads this week.

But when we drove it in the spring, we did get a chance to drive it

on some fairly fun roads near Santa Barbara.

And, you know, for a vehicle this size, it it handles really well.

It's it's really nice to drive.

See, there's also the surreal sound system pro,

which is a twenty two speaker sound system.

You need thirty five speakers at least.

I know.

It's delayed, right? I mean, twenty two.

That's for the pores, Sam.

If you have enough, if you have enough lots, though,

exactly.

And this one also had the optional twenty two, twenty three inch wheel and tire package.

So the standard setup, you get twenty inch front wheels, twenty one inch rears.

And then the first option is twenty one fronts, twenty two rears.

And this one had twenty two fronts and twenty three inch rears,

which are very big wheels and tires.

Really not necessary.

The wheels look really nice.

The great looking wheels.

You know, you don't need that and it does eat significantly into your range.

So if you get the base setup, the twenty and twenty one inch wheels,

it's rated at four hundred and thirty seven miles of range

with the twenty twos and twenty threes.

It's three hundred and eighty six miles.

And actually there is.

Let's see. Yeah, three hundred and eighty six.

There's also a package that drops it down

to to just three hundred and seventy eight miles.

How are you supposed to rotate those tires when they're staying?

You're not. You're not supposed to.

You have to dismount them then every time.

Well, the tires are different sizes.

That's true. Yes, but you're not flopping side to side.

You don't do that with no radials.

So you just you're just done then.

OK, another reason not to do that.

But Michelin's happy. Michelin's happy. Of course they are.

I can go and put like whatever

next in tires on your hundred thousand dollar.

I believe Michelin is their tire.

So so this one is rated at three hundred and eighty six miles.

Which is so pretty good. Fantastic.

Yeah, no, it's very good.

Although, you know, as is typically been the case,

you know, Lucid's tend to be on the more efficient side of the EV spectrum.

But they like Tesla.

They also usually fall short of their official EPA ratings.

So in this case, you know,

I was averaging two point seven miles per kilowatt hour over the week,

which with one hundred and twenty three kilowatt hour battery works out

to only three hundred and thirty two miles, which is closer.

You know, it's about what I was seeing.

It does charge very fast.

It's like it's a nine hundred and twenty kilowatt or nine hundred and twenty

volt electrical system on this thing.

And other tests have seen it

charge at almost four hundred kilowatts on the right charge if you have the right charger.

I took it over to my local supercharger yesterday

because this thing does have a native J 3400 charging port or NAX port.

So I took it over to the supercharger station.

The gravity does have plug in charge built in.

So I just pulled out the cord out of the charging dispenser, plugged it in the car.

And within about 15 seconds, it was charging.

And when I plugged it in, it was at 26 percent state of charge.

And it quickly climbed up to about two hundred and twenty eight kilowatts of charging.

And it stayed there for quite a while.

Even when it when I unplugged it at 80 percent charge,

it was still going 110 kilowatts.

Sam was causing a local brownout in the Ann Arbor area.

So you can blame those folks.

That was the escalate IQ that was doing well.

I killed those.

I killed one of the the charging stations in Nipsey County.

The early left of America ones.

I kept throttling thermal throttling those with the with the Hummer.

Oh, yeah.

I pulled in when I pulled into the supercharger yesterday,

which is just down the road from that E.A. station.

There was an ID buzz, an escalate IQ and a Maki rally all charging there.

Wow. Well, diversity of vehicles.

How about that? The nice the nice thing about version three superchargers,

even though they peak at two hundred and fifty kilowatts is

that's two hundred and fifty kilowatts to each pole.

So so you don't have to worry about like

splitting or sharing with the person next to you.

So, Sam, my model three is on either side of me while I was charging.

Yeah, like he might cause a brownout with that particular charging pedestal,

but he won't ruin anyone else's day.

So well, unless they have sensitive electronics at home that need the full.

So is the so is the lucid air like their dream pie in the sky?

Thirty thousand foot vehicle and the gravity brings it back down to earth.

Is that why it's in the air and a gravity?

It's it's it's kind of in between because the next model is coming out next year,

the midsize that's actually supposed to be called the earth, the lucid earth.

Are they going to have I hate this one on there?

This was gently floating down.

They named them after clouds like Cirrus and Stratus.

I think that's been done somewhere.

Oh, damn. Yes.

The one criticism that I'll have in Sam,

you said the same thing regarding software.

I like the idea of physical buttons,

but I've been in some cars and the lucid air was one of them where even

like there was still a software layer between the physical buttons.

So like Craig, that last era that I drove, whatever the mama thing,

like one of the drivers side window wouldn't go down.

And I don't think that it was a minute.

I don't think it was an error.

Well, it wasn't a button switch error.

I think it was a computer error error.

And the blazer EV when I first drove that before they had to stop sale

and and the recall, there were physical buttons for climate control

and stuff, but they froze.

They didn't work because there was, again, a software layer in between.

And in theory, I like the idea of a wasn't working.

It's the can't bus.

Yeah. In theory, I like the idea of a software behind vehicle.

I do. But in practice, I think that there still needs to be some work.

And I do think that loosens are extremely efficient.

Their battery motor combinations are really next level in engineering.

They just need somebody to buy them.

I think. Yeah, they have Saudi money, though, don't they?

They have unlimited funds, you know, they don't have infinite patience.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I think the Germans, the Germans, I mean, the new stuff

from Mercedes Benz is pretty good.

The new the new A-class or however you pronounce it, the new class

BMW stuff's really good.

And does that even exist anymore?

I don't know. But I like what Lucid's doing at some level.

I think they're I think the luxury is there.

I like I think they do stuff very clever.

And I think their engineering is really solid.

They just have some bugs that really needed to quash.

And I feel like if they were bought out by somebody that could really.

Get there.

I mean, you know, some years ago before Apple gave up on trying

to get into the car business, you know, I had made the suggestion

on multiple occasions that, you know, instead of trying to develop their own,

they should just buy Lucid because, you know, if there's any car company

that is closest to kind of Apple's way of thinking,

you know, it would be Lucid, you know, and the thing that the thing

that Lucid has always needed, you know, is, you know, more operational

expertise, you know, in dealing with supply chains and manufacturing

and those sorts of things.

And that's the stuff that Apple is great at.

And specifically, it's him, Apple.

I mean, yeah, because Steve Jobs brought him in to

as the CEO as the operations manager, because it was like,

and that's when iPhone went from, hey, here's a fun little project

to global domination.

Yeah. And while the Intel era for Apple computers

in hindsight, not particularly greats

at the helm, Sam Apple, you know, that moved to Silicon and the integration

and how well everything now is optimized and works well.

No, I don't think Apple should buy it.

I don't think Apple should make cars. Not now.

I could I could see how Lucid would be a good fit

if they wanted to get into that business.

Yeah. But they've they've given up on that.

So which is probably good for them.

They shouldn't have been thinking about it anyway.

I wouldn't want the liability.

You know, for for a company that likes, you know, operating on 40 percent profit

margins, getting into the car business was always an insane proposition.

Yeah. Yeah.

One one other detail with the with the gravity

that I've also experienced with the air is the door handles.

You know, so the door handles pop out, you know, they when they're

normally they sit flush with the rest of the door.

You know, and when as you approach, they're supposed to pop out.

And a lot of the time, probably maybe a third to a half of the time

when I walk up to the car with the key fob in my pocket and, you know,

have a key fob and there's also an NFC card, which doesn't seem to work at all.

You know, the doors did not pop out

unless I would actually take it out of my pocket.

So that was you've got those Faraday cage pants on again.

I know, you know, a copper lined trouser.

They told me not to use those when I'm driving, but it's can't help myself.

Comfortable and breathable, I know.

Well, and you're trying to protect, you know,

your insides on radiation. Exactly.

So that, you know, that was that was a little finicky.

I mean, they always opened up, you know, once I pulled the fob out of my pocket.

But, you know, having it in my pocket and not opening just, you know,

was kind of annoying.

Well, hopefully the Chinese are going to fix the problem for all of us

by banning stupid door handles and hopefully that catches on.

So, yeah, that would be nice.

That would be very nice.

So, you know, the Mineroni that I got

is not actually the one for the car I was driving

because it lacks some of the some of the things that were on this car.

The car I had was finished in Aurora Green metallic, which is a lovely color.

You know, Lucid, unfortunately, doesn't have any really bold colors,

especially on the gravity.

But the Aurora Green is a good color shades of gray. Yeah.

And the German rainbow.

Yeah, all together, it came to a grand total of one hundred and seventeen

thousand seven hundred and fifty dollars.

Now, which is thirty five grand less,

forty grand less than an escalate IQ.

Yeah, it's about forty grand less than an escalate.

It's less than the EQS, the CV, which I don't care for at all.

It's it's a ton of money, but it's also.

Yeah, I mean, when you look at it in the context of the segment,

it's expensive, but it's it's not insanely expensive.

Like, you know, I would I would probably take this over a Volvo EX 90,

which is similarly priced like the starting price for the grand touring

is ninety four thousand nine hundred.

So ninety five thousand dollars.

Right. And didn't they lower it recently?

Well, they just announced this week at the LA Auto Show,

they announced the Gravity Touring Trim.

So that's what it is, a lower trim, not as grand, but not not quite as grand.

But you could still tour, but still still very nice.

And that one starts at seventy nine nine.

That one does have a slightly smaller battery.

Yeah, so it's been decontented a bit.

The batteries, they took a few modules out of the battery.

So that brings it down to I think eighty nine kilowatt hours.

Yeah, eighty nine kilowatt hours from the hundred and twenty three for the grand touring.

And, you know, that's that still gets you

over three hundred, let's see, three over three hundred miles of range

for the for the touring trim.

And, you know, it charges very fast.

You know, it'll add two hundred mile on an appropriate charger.

It'll add two hundred miles of range in about 15 minutes.

Zero to sixty four.

The for the grand touring is about three point four seconds.

It's four seconds for the touring, which is still more than fast enough.

You know, nobody nobody needs that kind of that kind of speed.

So that that cheaper model puts you in within five grand of like an ionic million.

Mm hmm. And an E V nine at the higher end specs.

I don't know.

I'd have to I mean, I'd have to drive one.

But that's I mean, all these cars are stupid.

It's one seven.

I can't believe that I'm saying that any of these are a good deal.

But I love the ionic nine and but their software at least works.

But like I feel like if I could get into a lucid experience for not much money.

Yeah. I mean, I would if I if I was buying, you know,

if I was looking at a top of the line ionic nine versus the touring,

the grand, you know, the gravity touring,

I I think I would have to very seriously consider the gravity.

Yeah. The problem is Hyundai will be around in five years.

That that will lose it.

Beast. Yeah.

Well, they will honor your warranty if they're out of business.

And there and therein lies the problem with software to find vehicles.

You know, it things, you know, become very iffy down the road.

If the creator of your software to find vehicle finds themselves

undefined, so like I like I had like I had Rick Fisker.

Yeah. I mean, you could say that theoretically, Chad.

Made in theory as an example.

As an example.

I mean, just had Rick Fisker.

Yeah. I mean, Craig, you weren't there.

Sam, did you go to that GM thing a couple of weeks ago or whatever in New York?

Yeah, I was there in New York. You were there. Yeah.

Yeah, my brain doesn't work anymore.

I'm getting old.

But I mean, Fiskers are everywhere.

Like I mean, I knew I'd see them everywhere, but it was still wild,

like walking out of the hotel or that they knew at any random time.

The company is about, you know, all the unsold inventory,

you know, basically put them into taxi and ride hailing fleets in New York.

Yeah, there's a really good one around.

There's a really good half as interesting video.

So it's like six minutes long and half as interesting.

You would shoot your channel right around the same time that that event happened

that does a fantastic job at sort of explaining

why all those cars are in New York and how they're fixing them.

And I don't necessarily want to say I learned anything really new,

but it was really fun to see it presented that way.

And I'll I'll send you a link for the show notes because I think it's really worth sharing.

But yeah, software defined.

I hate that term so much.

Yes, just like all the other words.

New improved.

There's some there's some nice potential

capabilities with a software defined vehicle, you know, over, you know,

you can upgrade the capabilities of the vehicle over its lifespan.

You can charge.

The problem is you have to support that software.

And you have to support the underlying hardware that that makes it work.

And, you know, there's there's certain things that shouldn't be software defined.

Like, for example, which direction your vents are facing.

That correct.

That should be hardware defined, not software defined.

Yeah, correct.

And your door handles, which is probably just fine to have a mechanical latch.

You know, I'm OK with that. Absolutely.

Those should absolutely be.

Sam, when you were talking about the buttons on the steering wheel,

it made me think of a really stupid idea, which would be,

do you remember the old IBM, not Lenovo, not before Lenovo bottom,

but the old IBM ThinkBads that had the little red nubby.

Yep. In the middle.

I like that. I did.

So I had like that.

I worked for a number of years.

Yeah, put that on a steering wheel.

If you're going to do some weird sort of swiping dials, touch sensitive,

whatever, just put a little red nub right in the middle.

Just like the Lexus remote touch system, right?

Where you've had a little track, track, remote touch, track,

to bring back the IBM track pad.

Yes, make make IBM great.

Good.

I think I think it's too late for that.

But I think it probably is.

They should get around.

Yeah.

So, you know, again, like the air, you know, there's a lot to like

about the gravity, but there's just, you know, there's little details

that are not quite finished.

Oh, one, one other detail that I noticed the other day when I was all

it was trying to do is just reposition the car in my driveway.

And I realized that one of the software defined capabilities is

there's a subscription for reverse.

No, no, it's just the transmission selector.

It will not go into drive or reverse unless your seat belt is

latched. Oh, yeah.

So, I mean, I when I'm driving, I always wear a seat belt as everyone should.

As you should.

But sometimes if I'm just moving the car a few feet to

reposition it in my driveway, you know, I will just hop in, you know,

just to reposition it.

And I realized why won't this go into drive?

Oh, I joke.

Latched the seat belt and all of a sudden it worked.

Yeah.

I've joked about this with some automakers, but I'm actually pretty serious.

Like there should be an auto journalist like a setting that like below

like three miles an hour or two or three miles an hour.

That kind of stuff doesn't activate.

You know, you don't necessarily get the seat belt warning chime.

The automatic headlights are off.

The mirrors stay out instead of closed in.

It's like a car wash mode, but just for us, the mirrors stay out.

Oddly specific demographic.

The doors don't automatically lock like, but if everything's software defined,

it's just like just get some one just to just have it behind a special code.

You know, so you tap in a code on the screen and then it gives you a journalist mode.

Yeah, that gives you can take your photos with the lights on.

The the door handles retracted, the mirrors out.

Yeah.

Because gosh, I hate getting in.

Stellantis vehicles are pretty common for this.

I'll get one and the last person had the the instrument cluster brightness

clicked all the way up to the permanent daytime mode blinding.

Yeah.

And then I'll climb in at night and then I can't see for an hour

because it just seared my retinas out.

You know, that's a feature they had on their older models, too,

with the the wheel for adjusting the brightness of the cluster.

For whatever reason, there was that one extra setting that would just

I don't know what the logic was.

So in the GM car, I used to own that last click would also turn on the

dome light to turn the brightness all the way up.

And then don't like, which was also, I don't know, we're from the company

that put the controls on the wipers on the turn signal stock, along with the

high beams and everything.

I'm surprised they didn't put it on the gear selector as well.

And what other features can they fan speed?

Maybe they can sneak that on there, too.

Remember when you could adjust fan speed and climate control on the steering

wheel, like when there were separate buttons for that GM did that in the 90s.

90s early 2000s.

Like you had radio controls.

Oh, yeah, that was, you know, that was in the time when they had like 30 buttons

on the steering wheel, Pontiac did that.

That's the driving excitement.

Well, you get my reading glasses.

Which button is it now?

And it's the scene from Tommy Boyd, where he smashes the car on the desk.

Says the guy who had a Windows phone when we were talking about old

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I had so much.

But speaking, I'm going to segue us into Continuous Stellantis, maybe.

OK, yeah, let's talk about the Jeep Recon.

Let's talk about that.

So I saw this.

We've seen this car for two or three years now.

Yeah, I mean, I think they first showed the first released photos

of the wagon near us and the Recon back in 2022, I want to say.

I think it was it was late 22 in the fall of 22.

And then the first time I saw it in person was like March or so of 2024.

When Antonio Filosa was.

Yeah, they did a roundtable with Antonio Filosa in Auburn Hills,

and they had the wagon near us and the Recon there.

And then, you know, I've been seeing him around here

on the roads for at least the last six, nine months of testing.

But, you know, now they are finally releasing it.

You know, they finally gave us, you know,

specs and pricing and everything.

Is it the all electric Jeep you were hoping for?

It is the all electric Jeep.

It certainly is one.

If you need a Jeep with battery power, the Recon will do that.

So, you know, Jeep, you know, over the last four or five years

has at the Easter Jeep Safari, they did three different iterations

of a battery electric Wrangler,

called the Magneto, you know, that continued to evolve over over the years.

And this, you know, this sort of fits in the same segment as the Wrangler.

But, you know, it doesn't have the Wrangler kind of styling to it.

You know, it's more of anything, you know, it's more like an electric Bronco.

It does have removable doors.

It's got the Sky OneTouch folding fabric roof panel.

You can take out the rear quarter windows and the rear, the rear hatch glass

so you can have that open air look.

And actually, the way they do the doors is pretty clever.

Yes, because, you know, on the Wrangler, you know,

they've got a little tool set in the center console,

you know, some Allen wrenches that you've got to use, you know,

to take the doors out anymore.

Now, you just open the doors past 90 degrees and lift them right off the hinge

and then don't forget to unplug the harness.

Yeah, same with Wranglers.

Wow, 26 Wranglers all have that.

Oh, did they do that on the Wrangler too?

It's such innovation.

Yeah, they still mount the mirrors, the side mirrors on the door sill.

So when you take off the doors, they had the frameless doors

and they left the mirrors attached to the body.

And that's very easy to store the doors.

It is, but it's also if you're driving down a really narrow trail,

you may not want the mirrors on at all.

So then. Hold still to get you narrower.

Yeah, but you'll still probably scratch them up.

But if the trail is that narrow, there's a good chance

you're going to pinstripe the paint anyway.

So that's a cheap thing, Sam.

I just wouldn't understand.

So this thing is built on the Stella Large Platform,

which is the same platform as the wagon you're S

and the Dodge Charger Daytona.

Oh, boy, good luck.

Nicole had some had some thoughts on that, I'm sure.

Oh, yeah.

And it's got the same 100 point five kilowatt hour battery pack.

But because it has the aerodynamic profile of,

you know, basically a big block of wood

and a very large block of wood

and it sits higher than those other vehicles.

The range is not great.

Uh, 650 horsepower from the dual motors

for, you know, at least for the initial versions

they're launching, which is not necessary.

And yeah, zero to 60 and three point six seconds for,

you know, what is nominally an off-roader.

Again, not really necessary.

And it goes about the Moab, the Moab trim,

which is a new trim they're launching.

That's the off-road version.

Two hundred and thirty miles on a charge.

For sixty five thousand dollars.

No, this is dead on arrival, I'm afraid.

I mean, if they didn't learn, it must be a case of,

of sunk cost fallacy.

They were probably so far along with the development of this vehicle,

right, that they have to bring it out at this point,

even though who's going to buy it for that price at that range?

Like, who is this for?

The mistakes started

probably before even the Filosa came to jeep.

Oh, certainly.

But, but when Filosa got into jeep,

I liked what Filosa says to say, I think he's a smart guy.

And I think him overrunning overall everything long term is probably a good play.

But what happened was Filosa came in

and he had a lot of stuff he needed to fix.

And there were things that just got higher priority.

So like recon had to have been done for almost a year

because as Sam had said, I've been seeing them.

Well, it was supposed to launch last fall.

Yeah. But, you know, there was a lot of software and quality issues

that they were addressing with Wagoneer S,

which was supposed to come out first and then the charger.

Charger had as well, you know.

But then suddenly it got pushed, it must have gotten pushed to the side

because suddenly it's like, oh, no, we got to get Cherokee out the door.

Oh, no, we got to get Grand Cherokee out the door.

Oh, well, we got to get this new wagon, Wagoneer out the door.

So then it just became getting pushed back and pushed back and pushed back.

And every time I'd ask about it to be like, oh, yeah,

we just had to get more important stuff out the door.

Well, now it's too late.

Now, now it's too late.

This should be a mid-cycle refresh of this product at this point

and not the launch.

And I don't know who it's for.

I did an interview with ABC News last week

and we ultimately ended up on you should buy or you should buy a forerunner

because it's like, well, if you want this,

why would you get all this crappy range when you could get a Wrangler

or you could get a Bronco, but then, you know,

you could send in the kind of the tradeoffs with the with the Bronco

and the Wrangler with roof and the age and stuff like that.

Because this car has a luxury kind of focused interior.

It's nice inside.

So if you want it off road, it's a little more than the Wrangler four door.

You know, so if you want something off roady, that's nice inside.

Yeah. Forerunners are really good.

But, you know, the problem is, you know,

it's only got nine point one inches of ground clearance.

Yeah. And you said that Lucid that you were just in had nine.

Yeah. When you put it in highest mode, that luxury minivan

has as much ground clearance as this. Yeah.

As this is trail rated, I'm sure.

You know, Wrangler Rubicon is about 13 inches of ground clearance.

It is trail rated, you know, which at least, you know,

nominally, you know, is supposed, you know, for Jeep is supposed

to mean that it's capable of doing the Rubicon trail.

And we'll see if it can actually do that or not.

Because they would put it on like the Patriot, too, wouldn't they?

Like it was trail rated.

Well, the Renegade had it, the Renegade had a trail rated version.

There you go.

Yes, I mean, you could probably, you could probably show

every the Camry at this point.

I mean, maybe they'll do a Camry Woodland edition.

I did ask, but they'll care that too well.

No, I want a Camry Woodland.

Do it, Accio. Do it.

Well, the thing, the thing with this, this recon, you know,

the Recon Moab, you know, is riding on 33 inch wheels and tires.

And, you know, you could get an extra

inches, an extra inch of ground clearance if you could put it on 35s.

But you look at it, it doesn't look like you could fit 35s in there.

And when people asked Jeep about that, whether it was

whether 35s would fit, they would not answer the question.

They said over the aftermarket.

For your audience to understand, I'm sure they do already.

But like, when you talk about like a proper off-roading Jeep,

almost always somebody in the audience in the background

will ask, will it take 37s?

Will it do 40s?

Can you do 35s, 37s, 40s?

When they announced the JL Wrangler, first thing they said was like,

look, it'll do 37s. No problem.

Well, gladiator, especially the 37s, no problem.

You'd need a lift for 40s.

That has been sort of this mindset on those dedicated off-roaders.

They test this stuff.

They'd like it.

They know the aftermarket is going to want it.

These questions are going to need to be answered.

And this is the first time on something

that supposedly is off-road capable in my time doing this job

where they would not answer that question.

And that, I mean, that tells me nearly everything.

My guess is that 35s will not fit on this thing.

Probably without rubbing.

Not without rubbing in the wheel wells.

And it's got independent suspension all around.

Doesn't even have a solid rear axle.

So, you know, that's that's going to be a perfect for 99 percent

of the people that you. Oh, sure. Oh, yeah.

Sure. That's absolutely true.

But yeah. But why not a Wrangler?

But then who's it for?

I don't know.

It does. It does have a lot of money on it.

Even like, I don't even care if they make money.

I just want to know who it's for, because if it's for an off-roader

somebody that goes camping or something on the weekends,

but once kind of a nicer luxury kind of experience,

what's wrong with a grand Cherokee, especially because they're

still going to do the Trailhawk trams like those will get you

to most campsites anywhere.

And if you want something serious, you're going to buy a Wrangler.

Yeah, I mean, this does have an electronic locking rear differential.

It does.

And, you know, they changed the final drive ratio from 11 to one

on the grand wagon or on the wagon or S to 15 to one.

So, you know, it so it doesn't have a proper low range

like you would get in a Wrangler, but it does, you know,

it does have a significantly lower final drive ratio.

And that's part of why the range is so short, too.

Yeah. And off-roading and off-roading a full

Bev is a fun experience because, you know, you're not dealing

with a torque converter or you're not dealing with any of those sorts of

of kind of powertrain losses between your foot,

the application, your foot and what that tire does on that rock.

So, like, but you can get that experience with the Wrangler four by.

So, yeah, I don't know.

It's going to be interesting to see how many of these

they can actually sell.

I think the number is going to be pretty modest.

Yeah, especially the price, the range.

Yeah. I mean, they could pull a charger and throw an ice engine in there.

Well, style large can do it.

You know, they in principle, yes.

You know, when you look at this thing in profile, though,

you know, it's if anything, it's going to have to be a transverse

engine in the front because the hood is not as long as it is

on a Wrangler, for example.

So that hurricane straight six ain't going to fit.

You're definitely not going to fit a 392 in this thing.

Yeah. Yeah.

But what you could potentially do is the new,

you know, put, you know, put a four cylinder engine in there

and do an E-Rap.

A new turbo four.

You could do an E-Rap with a four cylinder.

Yeah.

Or what they could do, they could fit the straight six

if they just put in one of those dog houses that they used to have

on the conversion vans so that half of the cylinders

can just be right in the center console.

Then you could fit the straight six, maybe.

There you go.

And have an easy time servicing the spark plugs.

Yeah.

I mean, they put a pretty ugly hood on the charger

to get that straight six to fit.

So.

And, you know, at SEMA, they showed a charger, a drag race charger

with a hemi in there.

So.

Well, there's a red necklace away.

Yeah.

So anything is possible if you want, if you want it bad enough.

Yeah. And you have money.

Yeah.

But yeah, I just might at the end of the day,

like I liked it when I saw it the first time Sam was with you

and we saw it in person there in Auburn Hills.

Again, I thought it was cool.

But that was before we knew the grand Cherokee refresh was coming.

That's before we kind of knew exactly how how

Wagonier was going to, you know, you know, come, you know, sort things out.

Like it is kind of.

And also before we knew how problematic the Wagonier is going to be.

Yeah.

Well, and the charger has had similar problems.

So, yeah.

The software defined part of their of their electric vehicles

has not been delivering what it needs to software is hard.

Software can be hard.

I. Yeah.

Yeah, turns out the story, folks.

Just keep those air vents mechanical and the door latches as well.

And you'll be miles ahead of a lot of automakers.

Yeah. All right.

Something else that made its North American debut

the LA auto show this week was the Hyundai Ioniq 6N.

Love it.

So this is basically, you know, the five end in a four door body,

you know, with with a few more tweaks to it, 641 horsepower,

simulated shifting, you know, all kinds of simulated engine noises.

They've upgraded the simulated sound system

from a two channel set up to six channel.

So supposedly it sounds even better when you're driving it.

All the speakers for your fake engine.

Wow. Yeah, exactly.

It needs a frat sonic chambered exhaust system.

Yeah. So people on the outside can hear it.

Exactly. Yeah.

All of the muscle car enthusiasts cry some more.

I like the Ioniq 5.

I like how the Ioniq 6 drives better.

Has longer wheelbase, things like that.

I adore the Ioniq 5N.

My favorite, my favorite EV period so far.

And the idea that it could just be better.

Sign me up. I'm hooked.

Give me, give me, give me, give me, give me.

When I first saw the 5N in LA a couple of years ago,

you know, and they were announcing it, you know, I thought,

oh, man, this sounds like such a gimmick.

Yeah. Then I drove it.

And what a hoot it was to drive.

I was, I remember, I remember I drove it to the,

yeah, we're at the launch of Laguna Seca at

and we was the road around around the track

down towards the hotel and I drove casually down the hill

and I turned around to come back up the hill

and I put it in the end with the full shift thing.

And I missed the first shift, missed that first one to shift.

The fake rev limiter, this fake rev limiter.

And it threw me forward and I just started cackling

like a maniacal person.

Like it was so intellectually, I know what they're doing.

But how they refined all of the artificialness

to feel real is incredible

because they're not just cutting power.

It's not just a power cut.

They're adjusting the dampers

and they're doing all of these little things

and they're adjusting the power delivery of the electric motor.

So it feels more natural, feels more linear.

And it's fake, but it's like Star Trek holodeck fake.

It's not. It's I.

I'm very convinced they're able to do it.

It is. It is. You wouldn't.

I would be willing to bet money.

You put your plug, especially if you put your plugs in somebody

so they can't hear the fake engine noise,

which I can tell is fake, but it doesn't sound super fake.

But if you put your plugs in them,

they wouldn't know that it's not a real transmission.

Yeah, they just wouldn't.

They did a very convincing job of simulating

an eight speed dual clutch automatic.

And all the flibbles, all the flibbles of one, too.

Like they made it.

Then it behaves like an Elantra N.

But with they made the car by making it.

They made the car better by making it worse.

Yeah. Yeah. And God bless them.

Six hundred and forty one.

And the beauty of it is you can turn it on and off

so you can drive around normally.

And then, you know, when you're on a twisting country road

or you do in a track day,

you just flip it into N mode and it all comes to life.

It's amazing.

And unlike Mercedes-Benz, who's now doing it

or will be doing it in their new

AMG GT replacement, I wrote in the prototype

earlier this year, which also is really good.

But they only allow that fake shifting

and stuff in Sport Plus or an S Plus

with the ionic five and presumably with the six.

You can do the fake shifting in normal mode.

So it actually it'll still power deliver the same way.

It'll feel like you're just driving a normal car,

a normal gas power car.

So you can still have that experience, if you want it,

without having to be in full on balls out, you know, and and load.

You know, one thing I didn't care.

I drove the end, the ionic five end a couple of years back.

The one thing that I didn't care for was that

sort of a BMW element to the vehicle

and that there are so many settings.

You get into the menu for the chassis and the braking feel.

Whatever, like just who needs this?

Why? Simplify.

Don't make it more complicated.

But I guess if you want to get in there and tinker around, great.

But I don't see a lot of people using that necessarily.

Yeah, there needs to be like three.

But yeah, it needs to be like three settings.

Everything in full attack mode,

mm hmm.

Everything in comfort, quiet, efficient mode.

Yeah.

And then the journalist mode, which is everything in this

that the suspension and everything in the soft, comfortable mode,

but the exhaust super loud was the three settings that you don't.

You know, one thing, one of the things that disappointed me

about the the Charger Daytona was it's got panels on the steering wheel

and they could have done this and they still could.

They could do an OTA software update to enable this same kind of thing.

But they first for whatever reason they chose not to.

And that that would make so much sense in a car like that.

It's because they've never driven.

They've never driven an Anak 5M.

I'm convinced nobody in Auburn Hills has driven one

because the big problem with the Charger

is if you're going down the highway at sixty five miles an hour.

It's a fantastic cruiser.

Yeah, it is.

But it feels like the red like, but if you have the

frats on it turned on, it feels like you're like five or six thousand RPM.

And it sounds like like it sounds like it's instantly droning.

And then if you have regions set to anything other than the lowest setting,

it gives you a little too much engine braking.

So what if, you know, air quotes, engine braking.

So it feels like you need to shift the car.

Like it feels like it's missing a gear.

And that's super duper annoying

unless you turn the frats on it can stuff off.

And then then it's just a normal EV

because you're right, it's an excellent cruiser.

But it needs it needs that.

And, you know, caniscus pre Trump promised us, you know,

oh, the Banshee is going to have this multi-speed gearbox

and we're going to be able to deliver on whatever happened to that

in a mix of a way between a mix of a way between Porsche does it

and the way that like Hyundai does it.

And then, of course, that's dead.

So I hate that we're using this hope.

I hate them using this whole podcast to crap on Stelitus.

But their EV offerings have just

they're very they the first generation.

There was so much potential there.

And they were already in second and third.

Yeah, like an all electric charger should be bonkers.

And in a lot of ways it was, you know,

an all electric powertrain makes a car feel more luxurious

like wagging your ass.

Yeah, that should be, you know,

should be the way to deliver there.

And it's just it plagued the software issues.

Yeah. And then you and then you drive into something

you kind of something fun and like the iron again.

And you're just like it's it's night and day.

It's it's it's it's like an ode to the attic.

Five N is like an ode to auto enthusiasts.

Like if this if this whole future is electric,

this is like the this is like the automakers

out of branch to the enthusiasts to be like, look,

we didn't forget about you.

And I look forward to driving the six.

I'm sure it's.

So the the other thing that Hyundai unveiled,

which is actually a global debut was a concept car

or concept vehicle called the Crater.

Which, you know, what a name you look at.

When you look at this thing, you know,

it doesn't have a grill.

They didn't talk anything about, you know, a powertrain.

But I could I could imagine this thing using EGMP hardware

and doing what Jeep wanted to do with the recon,

but doing it right.

Yep.

It looks like it has portal axles, too,

because there's like in the renders, at least there's no.

No suspension under there.

I don't see anything in the middle of the.

It could it might.

You never know.

I mean, it's a concept.

So who knows.

Anything.

But they've taken this whole like Hyundai has gone full pixel

and like have really embraced it.

Like I thought they were going to kind of embrace it,

but they have really embraced it.

And they've carried a lot of that over to production vehicles.

And I think the interior of this thing is.

I don't know if it's good, wild to me, but it is wild.

With with the pixelated displays and this idea of like,

especially like the drive mode selector and things like that,

it is very retro future.

It's the 80s, but like the 80s, we were promised the future

were promised in the 80s.

And I don't know if that's a good thing or not,

but I kind of dig it.

And the creator concept, the attic three,

which was the concept three that they showed.

Like or earlier this year also had a moon vibe to it.

So they're really leaning into now the outer spaceness

of their concepts.

I don't know why, just a trend that I'm kind of noticing.

But yeah, you take that is like, and you know,

Hyundai's been gradually easing into the off-road thing

with their XRT trims.

Yeah.

And which are, you know, on the on the policy,

they've got the XRT pro now, you know,

which is surprisingly capable for the type of vehicle it is.

You know, and I would not be the least bit surprised

if they build a production version of this.

Obviously not with the suicide doors, but you know,

I can see them taking on Jeep.

But they just do that, it's so cool.

What was that Craig?

They should, cause it would be so cool

to have something different and still functional.

Well, our friend, Mr. Jared Rosenhold over at Carbaz,

I mean, his kind of his headline on this is like,

XRT and N can work together.

And like, I know that some of the N people worked

on this concept.

And so like, if you want a real kind of like,

I mean, not necessarily a Raptor competitor,

but like, you know, something to really go after

like hardcore four runner bros or the Bronco kind of stuff.

Like I think there's room for competition

from the Koreans in that segment,

because if they come in the way that they have

in the other segments, they take this,

they take this crap seriously.

Ford and Jeep will be in big trouble if my face is up.

Well, yeah.

Yeah, and I'm not, I'm not Korean pilled here.

I don't sound like it with my love of the attic 5N,

but like, there are, the domestic automakers

have really been kind of rested on their laurels

on those sorts of products.

You know, we've got a 10 year product cycle on Wrangler,

which looks like it's probably gonna be about the case now.

So, you know, next year,

we'll probably start seeing some concepts,

but for whatever it is, the JM or whatever,

they're gonna end up calling it, you know, Broncos.

I mean, it's closing in sales-wise on Wrangler,

but both of those products are really expensive.

I mean, part of the Wrangler's problem

is it's how much the dang thing costs.

Look at full-size trucks, they're absolutely insane.

Yeah.

So like, if you could get something like,

it won't look like this concept, I understand that,

but like, if you could get something,

RAV4 4Runner-ish, 4Runner's kind of big now,

but like, you know, a Santa Fe kind of sized

or whatever, that's really kind of like a,

like a Broncos sport, but more Bronco-y.

Yeah.

I think they were, yeah, I agree.

I think they'd be in trouble.

Yeah.

Yeah, it'll be interesting to see them

build something like this.

All right, so the, let's see what we got next.

Oh, let's go with Honda Prelude pricing.

You know, I got to drive the Prelude

a few weeks ago in Japan.

And Prelude's-

It's not Prelude.

Yes.

And they've now officially announced the pricing

for the US, $43,195 delivered,

which is not cheap, but you know,

it kind of falls midway between a Civic Hybrid Sport Touring

and the Type R, you know, and it's got-

That's about what I would have expected

for a car like this.

Yeah, you know.

Yeah, that's what I was figuring.

You know, the Type R is up to about 47 now.

But I think it's like three grand too expensive.

Yeah, I mean, it would, I would prefer it to be cheaper,

but you know, it does have all the Type R suspension

and brakes, it's got the S Plus shifting stuff.

You know, it's actually surprising amount of fun to drive.

Yeah, and one of the things that, you know,

that as soon as they announced

that they were putting the Type R suspension

and brakes on there, I figured,

oh man, at some point they've got to build a prelude Type R,

you know, just drop the turbo two liter in there.

And you know, Honda has been avoiding that question.

They prefer not to talk about that question.

Just like 35 something that recon.

Yeah.

But you know, we might as well address a listener comment

that actually came in on a Discord switch,

which is an interesting thing here.

Jeff D in the Discord said,

whenever I think of Acura Integra,

I almost think of the OG three door Integra

from the mid to late 80s,

as opposed to the five door that we have today.

And says, I almost bought one,

got an Azuzu impulse turbo instead.

It would be really cool if Acura made

a three door Integra based on the prelude.

And that actually would be really interesting.

Take the pre, you know,

cause the prelude is a shorter wheel base than the Civic.

You know, basically, you know, re-skin that.

And you know, you've already got all the good suspension

brake bits from the Integra Type S

and just put the Integra Type S powertrain in there,

you know, which is the Civic Type R.

You know, and you know, then sell that for,

you know, 48, 49 grand, you know,

so make that a three door Integra.

What do you think about that approach?

Here's, here's, here's a whole lot.

So I like this idea, and I would almost argue

that this is how the car should have come.

It shouldn't have been a prelude.

I also will admit that I think the prelude

is a car designed exactly to my sensibilities,

which means it's probably not for a lot of people.

I appreciate that they built the prelude

because they can, and not because it makes sense

on a balance sheet.

So like, I've always liked what Honda has done that.

I had an S2000, that made no sense at all, financially.

But still one of the best cars I've ever driven.

So I like that part of it.

The prelude was always the two door cord.

And now it's the two door Civic.

I get cars have gotten bigger,

so maybe that makes kind of more sense there,

but preludes are really weird sell

because you're right, it is three grand,

four grand away from a Type R.

If you can find a Type R at Sticker, which you can't,

though I did see a $65,000 prelude over the weekend

because with the dealer markup and everything.

So, excuse me.

You mean Type R, $65,000?

No, a prelude.

Oh, you already saw it at the dealer?

Yeah, I saw it on the internet,

but yeah, it was 10 grand in markup.

That's nuts.

I mean, I like the prelude a lot.

I would not pay that kind of money for it.

$400 for a screen protector for the infotainment screen.

Get lost. $300 to fill the tires with nitrogen.

Yeah, it was total rip off city.

But I think that you maybe wouldn't have gotten

the Integra Type S if the prelude would have been,

if the Integra would have been the prelude.

But I think the Integra,

I think the prelude is trying to be a premium product.

And I think it'd fit better with an Acura badge.

I mean, I know that doesn't have power adjustable seats

and stuff like that, but add those,

add a couple of grand to the price

if you need to slap an Acura badge on it.

And I think that makes a little bit more sense

than it does with a Honda badge.

Yeah, an Integra Type S is $53,400.

So, you know.

US only, by the way.

Yeah, I know.

We're North America only.

So, if you could do an Integra,

an Acura prelude Type S for under 50 grand,

I think that would sell a lot better,

I think, than a prelude.

I can't believe the Type S is 55 grand for the Integra.

That's just insane.

Well, they had to put some differentiation.

But I mean, that puts you in like,

that puts you in two, three, five-eye money.

You know, like, that gets it.

But probably a lot more reliable than a BMW.

Sure, yeah, the same with whatever,

you know, the Mercedes or whatever off-frame.

But, you know, and they drive well

for front-wheel drive cars, things like that, but I don't.

But 55 grand, and that's just the starting price, right?

With, I mean, that's with delivery, of course,

but you shouldn't include because you have to pay that anyway.

But there's a paint color.

I think the only real cost is the paint color

on the Integra.

Yeah, everything else is pretty much standard on there.

Well, that's good.

But a two-door coupe, I mean, you know,

to your Discord comment, like, nobody buys those.

Like, I would.

And Honda doesn't expect to sell a whole lot of them.

But because, you know, it's sharing, you know,

so many parts with, you know, the Civic and other Honda vehicles,

you know, other vehicles are on that same platform.

There's a lot of common componentry on there.

So the actual cost, you know, to produce this, you know,

there's not a lot of unique stuff to this.

You know, they can do it.

And that's, you know, I mean,

that's why it's $43,000 for the Prelude.

You know, because there is some cost,

but it's not, you know,

it's not like they're developing a completely unique platform.

Right.

Well, so I don't think that they would offer a two-door

and a four-door Integra that are as different

as what I think they would be if they did it with this stuff.

But my question for you, Sam, since you've driven it,

is is it a more expensive, fancier,

more funded drive Civic Hybrid

or is it a detuned, more fuel efficient Civic Type R?

It works the Prelude.

It's both of those.

Yes.

You know, because it has the driving dynamics

of a Civic Type R, because it's got that suspension,

you know, you can, you can, you know,

going into a corner, you can trail brake it

and, you know, bring that back end around really nicely,

you know, and balance it perfectly, you know.

And at the same time, you've got, you know,

that you've got that Civic Hybrid powertrain in there,

which is really, really good.

And, you know, you've got, as, you know,

we talked about with the Ionic 5N, the Ionic 6N,

you've got that fake shifting, the simulated shifting

and the engine sounds and everything, you know.

And as with the Hyundai, you know,

it feels very authentic.

And a lot, a big part of the reason why,

why they're able to do that is because

of the way the Honda Hybrid system works,

which is in a lot of ways quite different

from the Toyota Hybrid system, you know,

because it is actually predominantly electric drive.

You know, it's more series hybrid

than parallel hybrid most of the time.

And so it, you know, that, you know,

because the engine is mostly decoupled

from driving the vehicle under the vast majority

of driving conditions, even when you're driving

quickly on a track, you know,

because, you know, you've got 181 horsepower

from the primary electric motor, you know,

out of 200 total.

The- It's a good amount.

Yeah, you know, so you're getting most

of the electric drive, so that gives them the freedom

to actually manage the engine revs

and make it feel like, you know, like, you know,

actually have it cycling up and down

as you're shifting and also do the torque management

as the electric motor, you know,

so you get that little, you know, slight drop

in propulsion as it's doing the shifts.

So it has that same very authentic feel

that the Hyundai's have.

So it does not feel like the old insight,

because with the old insight, like,

No, just the rev, no, not really,

no matter what your foot was doing.

Okay, good.

Yeah.

So but, but to also be clear, like,

it's the computers choosing to raise engine revs

sort of independent of efficiency

for the purpose of-

Yeah, when you put it in S-plus mode, yeah,

it's managing the engine based on things

your speed, your lateral acceleration, your yaw rate. So using all of those inertial motion

sensor signals to replicate what the engine would be doing if you were driving just a pure

internal combustion vehicle and shifting it manually. But it's way more sophisticated than,

let's say, a CV Tiggy with fake shifts. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Nice.

Yeah, I want to drive it. I'm looking forward to it. I think, like I said, I think it might be a car

designed for me in a lot of ways. But yeah, I also, you know, I don't know, when the price

came out, there's a lot of people that said this product was going to be DLA. It's not the recon.

It's not, no, it's not the recon. I think this would be a lot more appealing than the recon.

And yeah, it's not inexpensive. But again, you know, when you look at it in the context of what

else is out there, you compare it to the Civic Hybrid and the Type R, you know, it's right in

between those. You know, so you've got kind of the best of both worlds and a different design, that

two-door form factor. So it's got, you know, it's kind of in a unique place. And there's nothing

else quite like it in the market, you know. Well, because I think it doesn't make sense.

Like, I think it makes sense for like what they're trying to do. Yeah. But I don't think

it makes sense to a bean counter. Yeah. And well, no, I think, I don't think Honda would do it if it

didn't, if it didn't make financial sense for them. You know, I think, I think they understand the

kinds of volumes that you're going to get with this, which is probably no more than 10 or 15,000

units a year in the US. Right. You know, which I bet it's lower than that. I bet after the

first year, it's maybe 10. Yeah, after the first year, it'll probably drop off a bit. But if

they made it a prelude SUV, then they could sell 50,000 of them. Oh yeah, absolutely.

Or a prelude SI and put the civic type origin. I don't know. I think there's ways to go with it.

But I do feel like this was a car that they could build because they can.

Wait, it's pronounced SI. I've been saying it as C. I thought it was a Spanish market model.

C, Craig. C. I've been saying it wrong this whole time. What?

It said, dang it. Dang it anyhow. All right, C. Let's carry on. The Porsche Cayenne Electric.

They appreciate your courtesy laughter, by the way, for that terrible joke.

The Cayenne Electric is now officially out. It's here. Yeah. Yeah. $111,000.

Yeah, the launch mode. Yeah. 400 kilowatt charging, 10 to 80 percent in less than 16 minutes if you

can find a charger that actually works that fast. Iona's got 400 kilowatt chargers.

They do. They do, and they're pretty reliable from what I've used.

So and you know if you're too lazy to plug in when you pull into your garage

They also offer a wireless charging system for they do which this is the first like mainstream application in North America

I believe yeah, BMW did a pilot. They sold a limited number of five series plug-in hybrids some years back

there was

Genesis when they launched the GV 60 in Korea

It was available and I don't know if it still is but it was available at the time with a wireless charging system

This is a lot because um system. Yeah, because our friends that my friends at telemetry

Made a connection to electricity for the old EV pulse test. Yeah

Why disclosure disclosure alert? I know people at telemetry. So does Sam oddly enough?

I think yeah, yeah, one of his paychecks wait, I know Sam disclose full disclosure. I guess Sam outside of this podcast

Um, what do you guys think of the styling of this thing though? I think it's pretty sharp

Still looks like it kind of years. I really want to try that interior folded screen thing

I think it's probably gonna be silly. I think it's probably gonna be silly, but I still want to try it to see

Here I don't think automakers realize

They're so eager to go all in on this on screens everywhere, but I don't think they realize how dated and tacky that's gonna look

In like ten years like five is this portion need so many displays like you don't you don't need that

Nobody's asking for a climate control display like literally nobody. I don't even think passengers need to display honestly cuz they've got

But I feel like I'm in JJ. I feel like I'm in JJ Abrams and Star Trek universe though

And I'm in something with all the curved displays and stuff, you know

Not the original series which had all of the the tactile buttons and discs and stuff like that

But that JJ Abrams reboot lens flare and oh boy, that's that's kind of the vibe that I get

I think Portion's bigger problem is they're having a real hard time selling EVs at least in North America

The one is not selling as well, right?

And they're very good EVs. Yeah. Well, actually the McCann about one-third of McCann sales now are EVs

Even in the US. Yeah

Okay

Him a few weeks ago, that's what he said. Yeah, it's about one-third EVs now. Hi, Cal

But I want to drive your for your Porsche's again banks

The the base Cayenne electric makes do with a mere 402 horsepower

That turbo

1139 with with launch control

Something like Cal wants to tell me it's something like 99% of Porsche buyers

Have a the ability to a garage. Oh, yeah a workplace for charging. So yeah, I mean they're they're more

Customers, yeah, they're yeah, so so the whole qualifications that we talked about earlier for for plug-and-hybrid stuff like that

Like those those are typically solved here

Like a 9-11 turbo s customer living in their car

No, no, um, but I think that like I

Think it makes sense. I don't understand why

more really rich people don't buy EVs because like they're still better

Like unless you're buying like a collectible or a fun car weekend car kind of thing

Like your thing to take your kids back and forth to private school. Give me a car and electric to do that like

It'll be excellent. I mean, it'll probably be excellent or good, you know

I would say give me an Audi, but I don't can't think there's a single Audi. I like right now, but um

Yeah, I

Well, I mean the Q6 e-tron is built on the same PPE architecture

So, you know, if you yeah, if you like this one, you know, the Q6 is gonna be pretty similar

Right

Yeah, it looks nice about the the wire was charging system the the transmitter pad that goes on the floor

Everything for that is actually contained within that pad

So all you have coming off of that is a cord that you plug it in

Everything out. There's no wall box required for it. Oh, wow. That's cool. It's all contained within that pad

So you just find your your 1450 outlet plug it in. Yep, or does it get hardwired?

I don't know. I would imagine you can I think you can hardwire it too

That's I mean, I don't want to say that's like a game changer because it's on a car here

I mean, not that many people are gonna buy it, but I like the idea wireless charging

I mean even before I had a real good demo of it, but then you know Craig

We did a lot of stuff with electricity and like a lot of it made sense to me

Yeah, I think you know one of the one of the big challenges with the wireless charging still has been the cost

You know like I did a research project with a company probably

Seven or six or seven years ago now

That was working on a wireless charging system. You know and we did we did some costing

analysis for them and

You know at that time

You know even in volume, you know, it was still gonna cost

Somewhere around three to four thousand dollars for all the components, you know the bill materials

And and the assembly cost so you know this and I believe

That you know for the cayenne the system for the cayenne. I think it's like an eight thousand dollar option

Which is kind of nuts, but yeah, I mean if you're spending a lot of money the cayenne is gonna cost

Yeah

Yeah, it's either get that or get

leather-wrapped sun visors

Right, it's the same price you get red painted little chicklets on the air fence. Oh, that's four thousand dollars or whatever

Yeah, yeah, I mean if there's there's one thing that Porsche has learned over the years

It's how to separate customers from their money. They're very good at it. They're very good very good at that

Yes, what what what color did you want us to match for that that piece of leather on the the shift knob?

Do any color you want we can absolutely do that we can we can tan that hide whatever color you want, you know, I

Kind of like I mean I kind of like the bespoke stuff though

I like when rolls rice does weird stuff though their gamer thing this past week was kind of weird

But that's not on the rundown, but I think the one thing that Porsche understands that I don't think a lot of automakers do is

They'll take your money. They want your money and and it's it's like well

Well, why BMW and Mercedes understand that pretty well. There's yeah, but like there's been times where you're just like

Well, why don't you offer this feature? Why is this feature only locked this? Why are you making it so hard for me to give you money?

Don't put barriers up between

Giving me your money. I know there's some manufacturing kind of things stuff like that

but like it should not be difficult for me to give you more money if I want to do that and

Some automakers find ways to put barriers that they just doesn't well, I mean one one of the things with

Rolls Royce you mentioned them, you know, they have that

I forget what it's actually what's officially called

But you know, they've got the fiber optic system in the in the headliner, you know shows the night sky

Yes, you got all the stars and one of the things that they will do for customers if they ask is

they will find the

the the sky map of

Any day in history like you know the day you were born anywhere a day you were married day anywhere from any location and they will

They will arrange those little points of light to match the sky on on any day and location

When you when you proposed to your wife and you pointed out that particular star in the sky when you were laying outside

You can have that recreated in your rolls rise. Yeah, and look is it silly? Yes. Is it cool?

Yes, does it take money out if you have a half a million dollars to spend on a Rolls Royce, right?

Who cares if it's silly. Why why not? I

I they they just have a this sort of group of people that just sit around and make stuff up and charge for it

I think it's cool. Yeah, I think it's clever

But like there's a tiny wish I can just a little briefly with the whole Audi Porsche thing

Like you used to be able to get a golf R and like 20 different colors

Yeah, you had to pay three grand for it because they had to pull it from the line and go

Send it over to a different like one of the Porsche lines to finish the paint, but like

Do stuff like that? Yeah

All right, I'm nostalgic

Genesis. Let's talk Genesis

So are we talking like I'll start with the magma GT or sorry. No, actually, let's start with the GV 60 magma

Oh, so you don't want to start like in the beginning. God created having the earth Genesis. No

The Genesis is a car one-day motor group. No wrath of con Genesis

No, not not

60 magma so mag magma. Oh, yes is Genesis is new Genesis Genesis

The performance brand for Genesis

So they're racing their new

Endurance racer sports car race team is Genesis magma racing

They're they're launching

Magma versions of their production models starting with the GV 60 magma, which was also in LA

This is basically an ionic 5n in Genesis clothing and bright orange paint

Yeah, so yeah same 641 horsepower

And all the other goodies

But with you know Genesis styling and and orange paint

I do expect it to be a little bit more tame than the 5n in

Terms of like that kind of raw-edged kind of thing because I feel like a Genesis buyer

It's probably a little too quote-unquote mature

For the ionic 5n's hooliganness. That's sort of what I've been told from people who

Still work there. Yeah, not to give away any because I also knew somebody used to work there as we all talked about earlier

But um, I think it's gonna be maybe a little bit more adult than that

but I still think it's gonna be silly and

It's orange. It's freakin orange. It's a bit hazy house. Oh, it's beautiful. It reminds me of molten rock

But only like over the surface

So mess a magma perhaps. That's what you're saying perhaps. I was going to say lava

But then no, I think it's more of a magma

Magma exactly. Um, I think it's a cool name for a race or for a performance brand. I think it's

You know, we saw I'm a gv-16 magma concept a year or so ago

They've done a couple of magma concepts. They did a g80 magma as well

And and I'm sure that over the next couple of years we'll be seeing

Magma variants of probably most of the the genesis lineup as as they start the race program next year

You know, they're out testing right now

with the gmr 001

And that's going to start competing in March

at the

uh, the

The first world insurance championship race of 2026

Yep

So actually the orange actually reminds me a lot of the orange that was on the amg

Gcxx concept. Um, yeah. Yeah, yeah

But speaking of but speaking of like that like I for the first time in my career

I was able to go to a flotterback earlier this year and um

Um

Like that place is just like it's so focused around about the racing

aspect of Mercedes-Benz as well as as the high performance streetcar kind of stuff and like

Like it's just it's such a thing

And if genesis can tap into like that thing

They're just gonna I mean, I don't say they're gonna print money, but they're gonna

They're gonna open up themselves to customers

And that they haven't had before and they're gonna be able to increase margins and they're gonna just be able to

I think they can really compete with the best from bmwm and from Mercedes-amg

I mean, they've got the resources to do it and I I think they've got the will to do it

So, uh, they have or had elbert bierman

Yeah

I did so, um, you know

Shifting over to france to castel a that the paul ricard racetrack, which is where the genesis magma racing team is based

They had I guess they had an event over there this week

Where they showed off the genesis magma gt concept

A mid-engine sports car

v8 powered

Also very orange

What do you think of this one?

It's cool. It looks fantastic. Yeah

It's like a c8 corvette in a way, but much smoother and more rounded cleaner. It does kind of in some

In some ways, it does remind me again of that amg gtx concept, but I think that's good. I think wind tunnels

You know, I think it's better. I think it's better than the amg. It's a better. Yeah, same. Yeah, same. Um

I don't know. It looks exotic. It looks sporty. It looks fun. It looks like

I don't know if I was initially a big fan of this idea of of genesis looking at the germans

And saying that's what I want to do. I think they have an opportunity to carve out

An entirely different part of the segment. Um, I still think that they could if they wanted to but

If they're going to embrace the germans

They're doing it the right way

When they initially announced the magma products

It was I think at the new york auto show a couple years back

That they were not calling magma a sub brand. Do you guys know if that has changed because I asked them specifically and they're like no

No, no, these are more

Special line of vehicles or something to that. Yeah, I don't I don't think that's like a sub brand, right?

I mean, you know, it's it's all

You know six and one half dozen of the other. Yeah, it doesn't it doesn't really matter

You know if you call it a sub brand or not, you know, it's a

In a way, you know, if they're gonna have

separate models like this, uh

GT

You know, it does make it sort of a sub brand

Of genesis, you know, which in and of itself is already

You know started off as a sub brand of hunday. You know, so

Uh, you know, who knows but

You know, I think I would be surprised if they don't build a car like this in the next few years

Um

Especially, you know, like I said now that they're going into the hypercar class in wack

With that race car, you know, I think that they probably also want to compete in the gt3 class

And this would be a perfect product for them to base a gt3 race car on

Yeah, and and hunday the hunday motor group is so aggressive. Anyway

They have no fear of tackling new segments, right? Yeah, so for them to push into this

Hypercar or whatever you want to call it luxury space

I would not be surprised at all. Well, they have the I mean

They have the money and resources to do it because they're so vertically integrated everywhere else

I mean

A hunday car comes off the line and besan is immediately loaded onto a boat that it's hunday written on the side of it

Like it's made at a hunday shipyard from hunday steel. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's

That power that's a real power literally everything. It's the entire south korean country

Um, so basically that wasn't the only vehicle that genesis showed off in france

Uh, they showed something called the gene g90 wingback

Anything don't do anything but call it a wagon, right? Yeah, so the g90 for those who have forgotten is

hunday's current flagship big luxury sedan

and this is

A wagon

That is based on that platform, but you know the styling has evolved

Um, I love this. I love this car

I'm gonna say something controversial. Yeah, I think it's ugly. Hmm. You're wrong. The back end has a lot going on

I'm fine with that

Yeah, it looks like they let's look like somebody said hey design the back end and they just didn't stop

Yep

There's a weirdness to the roof line too

I don't know, but I'm wrong. I mean, I know I'm wrong. Like I'm fine with being wrong

I'm a wagon person. So I love this. Oh, so no so am I I totally I

I'm tired of concepts

Let's say I'm especially from

Like genesis like they do some production stuff, but man, they love doing

They'd love doing concepts and this isn't one of those

Uh genesis x whatever things so it's probably more likely to make production

but like

Just say you're gonna build the darn car

I I think they are gonna build this one. It will probably never be sold in in north america

Uh, because you know, it's a wagon and you know, we can't have nice things. Exactly. Um, but uh, I think that

You know, I think that this will be sold in europe and and in asia

And um, I I would just I would love to have it here, but we'd probably never get it

Um, instead we'll get something like the grand equator

That they that they showed in new york. Yeah

It's like the we talked about the ford flex earlier. I wish ford would bring that back

Yeah, a lower version on the rear drive whatever it is cd6 architecture like the explorer aviator

Push the roof down a little bit get rid of some of the off-road capability

Add some more style like you had with the original flex

It'd be a fantastic product

Yeah, I have I've a friend that has two flexes in his garage one for him and one for his wife

They're all in on the flex. There's there's several of them in my neighborhood stall. Yeah

Yeah, and they haven't made that thing in years. I know it's been

Two but

Yeah, I I

I like the wagon concept

I think that if we're gonna start talking more about fuel efficiency

Especially like ev efficiency and things like that. I think wagons

Kind of become much more of a viable kind of product offering. Um

You know, but we can't for some

There's no appetite in the united states for a lot of things. I think some of it is

Because the american customers just different

Um, I think I think this time that's that's determined

So much by automakers of what kind of profit margin they want

Like I think for it only wants to build f1 f series trucks. I think that's all I care about. Yeah. Um

You know, so I

I think this car would be a big ask in the us because you're asking somebody to buy a genesis

Which is already a big ask

and then

You're offering a body style that only kind of enthusiasts are really gonna want and how many

Genesis enthusiasts

Are there

Not that many. I don't know. I don't know

Yeah, all right

I think people forget about wagons

And like it's very generational people hated minivans and then because they grew up in a minivan and

I think the next generation of kids is probably gonna have a

I say kids but drivers

Are gonna have a distaste for suvs perhaps because that's what their family had and what they grew up on right

So maybe there's an opportunity for a wagon resurgence in the u.s

And honestly, I hope so too because like as much as I am pro like talking about automotive in the industry and things like that

Bigger heavy vehicles just kill more people. They kill more pedestrians. They you know

Um, you can't see out of them. You can't see you can't see out of them at all. Uh, it's

It's just this this problem that we keep having and I think as especially as cities start to focus more on

Okay, how do we protect bicycles and cycle, you know cyclists and pedestrians and things like that? I think

scvs start to really kind of

fall out of favor

um

I don't know. We'll see

I don't know. We'll see. Yeah. Um

Yeah, all right one one last item for today

Uh, you remember ballinger motors

They're still around. Um, sort of

They sort of they they got they got bought a couple of years back by a company called mullen

Yes, they're still around

kind of sort of

um, you know, and they you know, they largely abandoned the um, the the electric pickup truck and

SUV that they showed, you know, I'm pretty sure that there were only ever the two

Examples that they built one pickup one SUV. I'm pretty sure there were there was never a second of either one of those ever built

um

And you know, it was kind of it was kind of a you know a unique design, you know very boxy

Uh, it had a full pass through from the bed all the way through the cab, you know into the front trunk

Uh for for long items, you know

And you know a lot of people got really excited by this thing

Um, but they never raised the money to be able to build it

But they had also developed a medium duty electric medium duty truck chassis

Which is what mullen was trying to get to yeah production

uh, well

apparently

According to the the Detroit free press

Uh, the the company has stopped paying its bills

Um, and employees are saying that they haven't been paid in weeks

Um

And uh the the coo sent an email to employees in late october explaining that they were unable to make payroll

So that's almost a month ago now

Follow-up messages a week later indicated the problem had still not been resolved meaning employees have now gone unpaid for more than six weeks

the problem

And uh, they've also stopped paying their their suppliers and vendors and stuff

Um, so my guess is that uh, mullen is our

Bollinger is probably gonna be

Finally done for good

Is anyone surprised? I mean no no so before the mullen acquisition

I was doing a lot of work with the truck trend and um

All of our friends and assuming all of our friends. Um, this miss valentine was representing

Bollinger, I won't say her last name on here, but she was wrapping bull blinger with her agency. Um,

so she put me in front of mr. Bollinger several times for interviews and um

He never really had a lot of great answers

To to to like certain questions like

I think the vehicle the truck and the scba. I think they were interesting, you know

We're going to the moon retro sci-fi kind of way

Um

But they're also really kind of lacked sort of any sort of design cohesiveness things like that

But they were really leaning kind of on maybe an old school late or not an old school Andrew cruiser

But like an old school

Defender

Defender kind of vibe, um

Which is now kind of filled a bit by inios though

I've heard they've been having a little problems too

Perfect potentially but like it just it was just like who's this

for where it wasn't

Set by anything else like who you know, that wasn't the questions were being answered by other automakers already in that kind of EV space

um

The pivot the moment pivot to commercial

I think makes a lot of sense because I think electrification in commercial makes a lot of sense

Even if some of the people have pulled back from it

I've just seen so much good stuff and I've talked to enough people that a lot of the apprehension

Of switching to EVs in commercial trucking and things like that is less about

Will the save us money or will the save us a maintenance the apprehension is still that

All EVs are woke kind of thing like if you get over that if you get kind of over that hurdle

I think there's a lot of things that make sense and looking at um the drive article that you shared in the rundown

um

That kind of broke down the mullin truck like, you know, it was using Dana for axels, which I think is is a good idea

um, oh any which I think is still a great concept of a company even though they

Fired their cvo and brought their ceo back and and is that like a concept of a plan? It's a concept of yeah

Yeah, but like it was it but like I liked what they're doing and they've been having trouble and

it's

just so

It if mainstream automakers

Can't figure it out

What hope do you kind of have as a startup? I I know it's a very

And you know this does not bode well for for slight either, you know, and I think no, no, they have slights gonna have the money though

They they have bezos money. Well, some bezos, you know, I think they also have the wrong form factor for their vehicle

Yeah, like I think there's again like the prelude like

I think for the right customer

I just don't think there's a lot of right customers and

In the case of like a prelude sure honda doesn't need to make a bunch of cars because they make

Crescent and things like that. Um, I was just explaining to one of our gm friends recently saying I'm on around that trip to new york

Like I think slate like if gm would introduce a slate kind of vehicle

I think that could do reasonably well for them because they don't need to bet the entire company on one product

Bolinger had to bet his entire company

On this one or two products that aren't necessarily built for a large

audience and the slate the slate customers also not the total adjustable market of a slate customer is pretty small

Yeah, I don't know how you make a car company

Work off of that a brand or a sub brand sure

whole company

Maybe they never intended to succeed

Perhaps it was just a cash grab and this sounds super cynical. Perhaps it was just a cash grab when you know government subsidies are being offered

It's a way to get

Money, I don't know for slate or for bologna for both for any any like start-up niche EV maker. I think

Well, I even have like I'm much more optimistic about scout

But I still have questions. I mean one of our one of our colleagues has said like she's like well

What happens after what else can they offer they can offer a truck from an SUV

And they can offer in larger sizes and smaller sizes and like that's kind of it like is that enough

To sustain because you can't have a scout sedan, you know, um, not that sedans are popular or not, but like

what's the

What's the an outback size, you know an outback style wagon?

Yeah, yeah, I mean can you I mean maybe you can do that and again, I think scouts at a much better place

Yeah, you know and you know scout is you know part of the vw group

Um, and you know, there's already some

No, well, I mean they're a hundred percent owned by Volkswagen AG

So they're they're part of the but they're not Volkswagen but they're not Volkswagen AG though

No, but they are and they are an independent entity, right?

They just happen to have gotten all of their money. Yeah, and and it's owned by Volkswagen AG

So, you know, it's a separate business site though, huh?

But it's not on their website as a as an owned by it. I'm splitting hairs. I'm sorry

I mean it's practical purposes. They are owned by Volkswagen AG just like

Um, electrify america is owned by Volkswagen AG. It's a separate business unit

But you know, so it's technically a separate business entity. It's a separate company

But 100 of the shares are owned by Volkswagen

So, you know, it is technically part of the the company

Um

And

So, you know in in that case, you know, they are going to be using components from other Volkswagen group

Units, uh, like the the range extender engines are going to come from the Volkswagen group

their

EE architecture is going to come from the Volkswagen Rivian joint venture and the software platform is coming from there

Um, and you know, there were some recent reports that Audi is looking to build an suv of their own

Based on the scout platform

So, you know, you know, I think that they're they're more part of the group than they aren't

Yeah, yeah, I think so that helps there

But you know the it does but you know

From you know for for a long time. I've actually been

Skeptical of the prospects for scout because as you said, you know

Okay, what once you've done the pickup and the suv then where do you go from there?

And how many of those are they really going to sell?

You know, especially given, you know, what we now know about the market for

Electric large pickup trucks, you know, which is a lot smaller than people thought it was

Uh, yeah, so I think I think it's you know, they're going to have a tough time

You know in a couple years ago. I was on auto line after hours with John McElroy

You know, and I think you know was asked, you know, what I thought about prospects for scout

And I you know, I gave it at that time. I gave it a 50 50 chance of ever getting to production

Uh-huh

And I'm not sure that it's much better than that now

Yeah, I think I

I would probably give a

closer to 60 or 70 I think

Um, maybe because I'm just being a little optimistic. Um

But I think most of their volume will be in

They need to get the suv right. Yeah, um

I mean, they need to get both right, but I think the suv is definitely something they need to get right and um

You know, we still don't know what the range of standard engines are going to be

It's probably going to be some version of that 80 80 80 80 81

But something like 90 percent there was a number that came out that said we're ordered as the e-rev

Yeah, every 85 percent, but yeah, it's the vast majority. So like that's both a good and a bad sign

I mean, it's a good sign because they know how many engines they need

But it's like a bad sign for like the long term kind of plans of

like scout

But I like the scouts thumb in the nose to Volkswagen dealers because

dealers are

Can be problematic

They might not be the best partners. Yeah, just in case you have any dealers listening

Sometimes you guys aren't the best partners the automakers. You mean a 10,000 customers on a

Type r right sometimes sometimes y'all are

but

there's there's bad apples out there and

You know, I kind of see why I can kind of see why scouts like

EVs dealers tend to not like EVs. So let's

let's

Figure this out, you know in a separate sort of way

but like

If Sam if you're 50% on scout, you've got to be like what 30% on slate. Yeah about that

Yeah, you know, I think

I

I like the idea of what slate wants to do

And I I would be I would be much more positive on them if they had chosen a different form factor

If they had done a four-door

Crew cab pickup, yeah, then I would have been much more positive on their prospects

But with a two-door, I just don't see it

Selling beyond except for fleets, you know, like there's a lot of fleets that they'd buy ford mavericks

Because they're they're cheap simple, you know good good delivery vehicles and stuff like that

I I do not see, you know, and I think that's the same customer for the slate

For some local deliveries things like that, you know delivering auto parts

But we're gonna find out I don't see most

You know, there's you know a very small niche of consumers that want a vehicle like that

But it's a small small niche

We're going to find out that if a car a car company

Started that had an idea based entirely on the internet comment section. Can that be successful?

um, yeah

And I don't know because you go into the comment section. I covered

I mean before Craig and I worked a lot on EV. It's like I spent a lot of time talking about trucks

And the comments were non-stop. I want something basic. Give me a two-door basic

Whatever like just that's what I want. The trucks are too expensive

You can go buy a regular cam truck now and nobody does

Yeah, well, I think there's some self-fulfilling prophecy there with what dealers stock and what manufacturers sure

But if you wanted one, you can get one

You'll just have to order it probably but I think that's but I think that um

Like slate's gonna be they're using somebody else to use this as money. Thank goodness to answer this question

but

This is an internet design truck like this is bare bones basic cheap intentionally cheap will probably feel cheap

Um, I think people want less expensive vehicles, but I don't I don't think many of them want to feel like

They're poor

But I don't think you want to be reminded that you're poor when you drive your car

Not there's anything wrong with being poor. I'm poor, but like there's there's what

And I think that the stuff that I've seen from the slate so far

has been

cheap for the sake of being like

really cheap like creaking doors and

Fit and finish and stuff like they're gonna have to get that even if the car is cheap. They're gonna have to get stuff like that, right and

I know we're still a ways away yet from potentially seeing the production car, but

The total adjustable market

Tiny yeah, because I think a four door I think a four door would have made potentially more sense

I think that you know, I think there's choices that they've made

But if it's sub $30,000 as an EV without incentives

But you can get a Nissan Leaf

And it's so good and the leak

It's so good and the Leaf's got 300 miles of range and it's a it is a really good vehicle

Yeah, yeah, I mean people are getting out of the 260 mile version. They're getting 300 miles out of that

Yeah, so like the 30 grand one that's

We'll probably be closer to 320 330 on range like

And it seats five yeah, and it has a hatch

you know

It I don't make it

Yeah

Yeah, all right. Well, thank you gentlemen for joining me today and filling in

Always good to talk to you guys and uh, we'll talk to everybody next time. Bye

Bye see ya

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