EV Tax Credits Expire, No Four-Cylinder Cars, Have I Become A Car Person? | Episode 1,003

Every episode, we're figuring this out a little bit more. Thank you guys for being with us for your feedback. We are tweaking little things behind the scenes on this podcast you do every time for those you're listening. Hopefully just sounds the same. That's really what we're going for. But we're making little tweaks as we go. We're very excited to have you guys back with us. We are diving into lots of news. There's a ton of news. Again, car debates. There's a great topic coming up. We're talking about EVs. Car debates, car conclusions. Your questions. There's an interesting thing we have to talk about that's circulating online that everybody has seen.

We talk about that later that relates to Nürburgring crashes. We do scary and coming up. But we should start with news. We don't always talk about F1, but we do sometimes. There is some big F1 news as of this morning. So you're seeing this week after the news has been released. The Christian Horner is out as team principal and CEO of Red Bull. That is huge news. I'm sure it's rocked the entire paddock. He's been that guy for

20 years, 20 years. I got to thinking about his role and the standing where where Red Bull is. They are a top team. Championship winning team, eight championships. Christian Horner can be attributed to pulling the team to where it is now and to really making Red Bull associate with one of the most winning teams in Formula One history. You certainly think that's a dominant winning team. They've got a bright future ahead of them. They are partnered with Honda for their own.

Engine building next year in 2026 and they're going to become their own engine actually manufacturer. Yes. The team principal. The team boss is always associated with being at the top because I think of these other team principals. And if winning is the only thing, why do these other team principals have a job? Why aren't they cycled through? Well, but they've all been cycled two more than he has hasn't been a great longer than anybody.

I suppose so, but the point is mid-year. Why not wait? I mean, Max is doing great. I mean, he's driving almost a car that was designed just for him because anybody else that tries to drive that car, Liam, Yuki, don't have as great of a time. Sergio didn't have to be getting more out of it than anybody else, too.

Which is amazing. So it sounds like it was developed more for him than anybody else. But on the other hand, he's the championship winning driver. So why not?

And he went into it. He complains about it every week, too, which I find fascinating. Yeah. So my point about these other team principals, if winning is the only thing that matters in F1, which yes, it does, but on the other hand, for the teams that don't ever really place in the shop, yeah, yeah, we'll say the bottom third. Those teams, those team principals, they're doing their job to keep the teams where they're at and in their status quo.

So they don't get fired necessarily. There is turnover, but you know what I mean? There's, yeah, those team principals just because you aren't winning, but maybe they moved up to mid-pack. Well, that's a good thing, but if they stay at mid-pack and they don't actually ever win a race, they're not sacked.

Who do you put in here that is going to deal with the legacy of him?

I see years at this role. And I think team principals, after him, are going to go through a revolving door. You probably find something at his caliber. Yeah.

Let's hope that Max continues to drive at the level he does. I mean, he certainly will, but there's other questions now that this leads to now that Adrian Neue splintered off and Christian Horner's gone.

The original recipe that's gone. And he max leaves. What is the Red Bull team? I agree with me. What do they have? Sebastian Vettel, obviously, was their championship winning driver prior to that. Daniel Riccardo was very competitive under them.

They've had a lot, I mean, Mark Webber was around as a great driver, but it's always overshadowed by Sebastian. I mean, they've had some great drivers come through there.

There's a lot of a lot of discussion about Will Max move. I'm this is fascinating and it's going to reshape another sound stupid. It's going to reshape drive to survive on Netflix.

Because he has been a known personality on there, one of the top two guys they talked to every year because one of the top two team principals and now they're running what are they running fourth in constructors right now.

And that's a big change. So I then so they're making a big change. This is fascinating to see what happens. But I'm just most amazed by the fact that 20 years in that role has got to be longer than anybody.

And I'm amazed that they're making the change and I'm wondering who follows and how well will they do. I mean, I know they have a guy they've already put in there, but how to your point, how long will that person be there?

Remains we've seen, but I think that shapes the entire sport when we get big news like this from people who have affected sports so dramatically. It's pretty pretty big, but we wish Christian all the best. We wish Max all the best as well. And Red Bull, I hope they continue to be a championship winning team. And that's why we watch is

for the competition competition is healthy. Is it not Christians married to one of the old spice girls had enough money was owned before they got married. They have

most of a billion dollars between them. So they're going to be fine. I'm not worried about Christian. You know, if I were Christian 20 years running Red Bull and all of the ridiculousness. I think I just sit back for a while, do some farming.

I mean, apparently this is what all the rich people do in in England anyway now that have these states. They just go into farming and they have a YouTube channel and they become successful.

Well, speaking of money, they're going to have to buy out his contract for another five years and the guy who made 10 million a year that's going to be an expensive buyout to say goodbye.

And then you're bringing on somebody new into that role that will also probably not command as much as Christian salad, but you're buying that out and I would go relax and maybe catch some races from the comfort of your living room or maybe not and do something different time to move on. Yep, agreed.

But like I said, we wish them all the best. The 2026 Aston Martin Vantage S has been announced. It is now available with an upgraded four liter twin turbo of the eight now making 607 horsepower 590 pound feet of torque because it was slow before. No, it was just dragon. I'm really sorry that they had to solve that. According to Aston, it has a sportier feel with upgraded suspension hardware for the billstein adaptive dampers. Let's see powertrain.

Has been upgraded just a little bit as well. Software, you know, there's software has been upgraded to debuted at the Goodwood Festival of Speed for 2025. Just happened last week, July 10th through the 13th at the Goodwood Estate, so it gets driven up Lord Marches driveway. As usual, come drive up my driveway. Come on, come on, come on, bring your cars, drive up my driveway. Yes, bang. I think it's fantastic. They have refined this really, really well. I love the refinements to the Vantage. And now the Vantage

S is back, of course, trading on their vast history. And I was wrong. I mentioned about the interior that it was a little stayed. And this coming from a Porsche enthusiast, whose interiors are not necessarily groundbreaking in terms of trial.

Fair point. But it is about the controls. And here it's got to be classic. It's got to be long lasting. So you want simplicity. You want to integrate the digital element, but you also want to have buttons. And here, I feel like they've done an incredible job.

The steering wheel is very simple, but has some carbon fiber elements. I do like the Alcantara. And reading about the seats on here, 2500 individual stitches to create one of these. It's not the amount of stitches. It's the person who had to count the stitches to give the information to the marketing people so that we would know 2500 individual stitches for each of the seats. Who's counting the stitches?

Is it an automatic sewing machine that just knows how many stitches it put now? It's counting. It's very impressive. I don't know what happened. This is this is Lawrence Stroll continuing to just spend his billions to keep his son and F1 to bring Adrian, new to Aston Martin and to make their road cars as good as they can be. I mean, there is a major revolution going on in Aston Martin right now. We're seeing the result. I'm very curious. I really would like to drive one of these. I have to be honest, when they released this, this styling of this Aston Martin with this bottom feeder grill, I hated it.

And I love the last one so much, the V8 Vantage, one of my all time favorite cars, one of the best lucky cars ever. And this one over time has been refined wonderfully. I actually think it looks really great now.

And it's got a lot of performance are using Mercedes engines, which you can't go wrong with as far as power is concerned reliability. We'll see what the long term of that is. But Mercedes, we'll get back to this in a minute.

But Mercedes is talking about the fact that they have realized it makes me laugh that their audience doesn't want four cylinders.

Aston Martin is not doing four cylinders. They're taking the big Mercedes engines and putting them in these bodies. And that looks fantastic.

Other people are using Mercedes engines include McLaren in their Formula One cars, Williams, Mercedes team.

Sure. And of course, Aston Martin team. I'm fascinated that all four of those teams almost half the grid uses Mercedes engines.

And it's something that Aston Martin and their materials do not really reflect upon. They don't really mention like, oh yeah, this new upgraded four liter twin turbo,

they don't really mention that it's a Mercedes engine. They don't talk about it in the same way that Pagani doesn't talk about it either in those kind of things.

We take Mercedes engines and we put them in this crazy suit. And it looks fantastic. I hope it drives well. I would love to drive one of those.

I think it's gorgeous. I like what they've done with the trim. I like the styling elements.

Oh, yeah, the front. It looks proper back to our discussion about the Ferrari Amalthe from last time.

Okay, great. Aston has really identified this market. I mean, they've never really stopped building front engine.

They never have. They've been doing a great V8 and V12s. They realize Ferrari does too. The Amalthe and the 12-cylindry after names.

They're doing the Italian thing by naming it exactly what it is.

But still, there's only they can get away with only the Italians.

Yes. Mercedes has identified this market. I'm waiting for Portia to jump in with some sort of hot cool eyes.

Yes. Very cool. But we shall see in the meantime. I really love the Aston. It's absolutely gorgeous.

And yet another way for car companies to take the money out of the people's wallets who can afford them. And I applaud that.

I'm going to jump to, I hate to say this, but I'm going to jump to Nissan Nissan Nissan Nissan Nissan. Okay.

They're back in the news again. Okay. Last week we were talking about them because they were on the JD power initial quality thing.

Right. And that's fine and good. But did you also hear the news since that announcement?

That is they are recalling over 400,000 of the cars with their science project variable engine.

Remember this variable engine? This was highly celebrated. The variable compression engine. This is for Nissan.

What the, I think, what the rotary is to Mazda was this only an infinity product. This was an Nissan and infinity. It was both.

It was in the rogue. And it was in that that's the problem. It was in the rogue in the ultimate in the turbo versions.

This is a variable compression turbo. And it was sold in the rogues in the ultimate. And what's happened is there has been a machining problem.

Last time we heard about a machining problem. It was in the Porsche IMS bearing in other places where they have a machining problem.

Actually, you know what? GM is suffering a machining problem in their 6.2 liter V8s right now.

I love how just casual this is just put where we have a machining problem, faulty machining of things in this engine that are causing some of them to grenade.

So what they are doing is they are recalling over 400,000 cars.

Rogues, altimas and the infinity products as well that have it. But the big the volume sellers of the rogue in the ultimate, they're going to recall those.

They're going to check your oil pan. And if they find material in the oil pan, they're going to replace your engine.

If they don't find material in the oil pan, they're going to essentially just give you a nice oil change and send you on your way.

But that doesn't solve the problem. It fixes the initial you get a new engine that has the same technology in it.

You just got the new one. What's to prevent? Did they solve the machining problem on the newly engine so that it won't grenade theoretically?

They have solved their machining problem so that the new engines will be correct. But with all that's going on with Nissan, this is a bad look.

400,000 because here was the thing. And you said it earlier. This engine was celebrated and it's cool. Variable compression ratios in the same engine.

There's an efficiency one and a power one. And it's a turbo engine on top of it. That is a lot going on. And they cracked it.

Many other people have talked about it. They've cracked it, which is impressive. But now the engines are cracking.

Anyway, the whole the whole thing is this isn't ending well right now. So I hope that they have solved it.

But if you have a rogue or ultimate turbo with the variable compression engine, you are involved in a recall.

You might get another engine. And in the midst of everything else going on with Nissan.

Yikes. Just yikes. Nissan, I am rooting for you. We are.

I think everyone is. Yes, they have such they have such pedigree and legacy as a racing and as an also just an enthusiast brand.

But wow, the hits keep coming. I just it's like restaurants. When you go to look at a restaurant menu, they just need the classics on there.

It's fine to have daily specials and the stuff that the chef tries, the new dishes, the reason it gives you reasons to keep coming back.

But there also needs to be the standards. We know it works. Don't mess with it.

Yeah, if it's true technology and we've slowly worked our way into it, then it can be syndicated more widely.

But beyond that, let's not just try everything new, new technique on your final art project. Never do that.

That's one of Paul's favorites. It says whatever we try to change something. He's like, oh good.

We'll do it at the final project. That's gonna be awesome. Yeah. Everyone Nissan.

The Armada is a win. The frontier is good. I am so ready for sales. Just classic good.

Let's make something with a great engine, maybe a turbo, a standard transmission. I mean, just a regular automatic or manual, but just a regular automatic. No more CVTs. Let's not try to do that anymore.

I actually think that's what buried them. I think that is the beginning of the slide for Nissan was an all CVT lineup with the possible exception of like the Z-car. They went all CVT and I think it was terrible.

And I really wish they would wrench themselves back from that. It would be great. We'll see where all of it goes.

Moving on to news from Bentley and you might have seen their new concept, the EXP-15 vision concept. This is a design vision for the future that transforms their heritage into a thoroughly modern concept.

Does it not? It's based upon the 1930 Bentley Speed 6 Blue Train. You can see it there.

The Blue Train in green. The Blue Train that's in green. That's it.

Based on Bentley's customers, based on how large and imposing and stately and grand their cars and vehicles have been over the years, and based upon the design brief that says, we need to look to our heritage, but move to the future.

I'm not as big of a fan as the exterior, even though I do like the paint color which is derived from the nickel finish on some of their old 30s cars.

But what I love the most about this concept is the interior.

The exterior is daring and there's some nice surfaces.

I think this is Bentley looking at Jaguar and going, oh, we're doing that now, are we?

Seriously, this looks like the new Jaguar concept to it. Well, if we're going like that, we could do that. Give me the CAD software.

So here it is. And the reason I like this so much is because EVs have allowed design freedom to designers like never before.

And what they're doing is now treating interiors like an environmental space. It always was, but it was just give me instrument panel, give me dashboard, put the seats in, avoid the transmission tunnel, make some nice fabrics or keep it cheap and Bob's your uncle.

No, it's not quite that easy, but it seems like it though. Why not?

But for new concepts like this, check this out. Designers get to approach this, like furniture design, like environmental design.

Sure, okay. And so they get to try new things that previously weren't really possible. And so they're incorporating lifestyle.

So you can see here is the image with the docks and and without.

With the price and put your dog, you got lots of leg room. They've got, they're moving the cabin around making a modular.

Back when you were graduating from art center, people were doing modular cabins then.

Yes, they were. This has been something people talked about. You can look at your luggage while it rides with you.

Yes, you can, you don't like the seat there, move it over here. Yeah.

But it needs to have a balance. It can't just be screens tacked on to an instrument panel anymore.

And what I love about this is it's the design. It's the styling first. It incorporates that winged bee kind of shape into the instrument panel.

Very clean, very classic. But the screen, it's not all about the screens anymore.

It's about the experience. It's about textiles and patterns, materials.

I like that it's almost furniture design for the inside of cars anymore.

Yeah.

Then it is just let's create a new car.

So if you look at it from a furniture design or just you're creating jewelry, you're creating new ways of interacting with things

to make an experience, which is what Bentley is.

And so let's compare this to that Cadillac concept that has come out.

Well, it's not no longer a concept. They're incredibly high end, $350,000.

The Celesteek.

I'm not going to show you the Celesteek because I want you to see how much better Bentley has done it.

Well, okay. I mean Cadillac came out with it. Bentley kind of did that same fast back shape here.

Yeah.

And the interior is so much more compelling. This doesn't exist. It's even in concept form.

Yeah, this is somebody playing around and it looks fantastic.

Yeah, it looks fantastic. But at the same time all of these, starting with the Celesteek,

all of these, I'm going to go there. They're all ugly. They're all weird wagon shapes.

And let's see what's real.

I mean, are the Celesteek even going to sell?

I think the Celesteeks are going to fall on their face and the rest of these manufacturers are going to go running for the hills.

Possibly.

I mean, this is not bring to production.

No, not at all.

No, designers do.

When they think through, tying new shapes, new concepts to the past.

From the sketches, you can see here that it is actually just simple clean surfaces,

Sure.

defined by relatable shapes.

And that blue silhouette in the background, you can see that it's just there for comparison.

It's just a silhouette of that 1930 car.

So you can see, okay, you're deriving your shapes from this old classic kind of Bentley.

And so I like the surfaces.

I don't necessarily love the final iteration.

It looks like something to get used to, I suppose.

I'm telling you, they looked at Jaguar.

We could do that.

I mean, it's crazy.

You know, wearing 45-inch wheels in a sketch.

Because designers have always done this.

And I appreciate what Bentley is doing to push on this luxury concept

because these manufacturers need to give their customers what's next, what's something more.

So this is almost an environment, a furniture, an experience, a furniture design on wheels

rather than something, you know, sporty to drive, off-road or something like that.

That's not what Bentley's market is.

True.

So for knowing all that and seeing these sketches in the design brief,

I think Bentley nailed what the direction their company needs to go.

You might not necessarily agree with the final styling output.

But for what the client is going, you know, what you're going after, I mean,

I guess you're tailgating at Mount Everest Basecamp at 16,000 feet?

18,000 feet.

Yeah, why not?

Sure, it could be great.

Yeah, some mountain lake.

Yes, that is absolutely.

Bring us on that.

Absolutely, yeah.

I think they've really made it interesting, compelling, so much different than the Cadillac Celeste.

I think the Cadillac looks toy-like and very uninteresting in comparison.

Here Bentley comes along and says, let me show you how to do it.

Hold my champagne flute.

Let me show you how to do it.

Because again, I think, you know, the Celeste didn't the Jaguar.

Now this, I, to be honest with you, all of these to me feel more like film designs than real designs.

Certainly, but we've got to push it out there in order to bring it back to production, I guess.

Cadillac didn't push it far enough and it looks cheap to my eye.

I don't like the execution.

I think it looks poorly proportioned and uninteresting for the future.

It doesn't look timeless.

There's elements about this to me that look timeless.

Beauties in the eye, right?

But I love the materials they've gone after.

I love the image that they're putting forth.

All right.

I'm separating myself from, is it ugly?

Do I, do I instantly like it from what is Bentley's customer?

Are we designing for ourselves?

Are we designing for a customer?

And in this situation, I think they've done a fantastic job.

We hope that by the time you see this, you've actually watched our latest video,

which just came out last Thursday.

We're still getting used to the fact you and I are only doing one podcast a week.

So there's some stuff to catch up on.

But last Thursday, we released our latest video.

That is the very first video of our new Coda road trip series.

We're doing six films related to the monster road trip we did with 14 something states all the way down to the southeast and looking back home.

So this is the beginning of when we left Park City and we started headed toward Austin.

We actually drive each other's cars.

Many of you have asked about a discussion of the Amera versus the GT4.

That is this piece.

We hope you've seen it.

We hope if you have seen it, you've shared it.

Also get ready about every two weeks.

We're going to have a new one dropping every Thursday, about every two weeks.

And that will be a new pair of cars every time we drop a video.

We're very excited about the series.

It's a monster series.

It was a huge road trip.

So that one is out.

We hope you've watched it.

Also, we've lots of hooked on driving events coming up.

So you can check hooked on driving dot com right now and find an event near you.

We will be traveling again more of the back half of the year to many events.

But it's summertime, which is tracking season.

So stuff is going on.

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For our topic Tuesday, we're talking about a new product.

For our topic Tuesday, we're talking about electric vehicles.

And we're going to try.

We're going to try.

This is this is a difficult effort.

We're going to try to be not political while talking about EV vehicles.

This is not a politics podcast.

We try very hard to avoid politics.

You bring up EVs and it's instantly landmines and rakes because everybody feels like very connected

and really kind of volatile about EVs.

But the thing we want to talk about is love it or hate it, it's just happened.

The latest budgeting bill from the US has killed two very interesting pieces in relation to the EV market.

It killed the $7,500 tax credit and I think it was $4,500 for a used EV.

So what manufacturers have done since for the last 15 years,

if you're selling an EV, they list the price and the price is generally after a $7,500 tax credit.

I'll give you the latest example of this.

The latest example is that really cool slate truck.

The slate truck was going to be under $20,000.

But the only way it was under $20,000 is because it had that $7,500 worked into it as an EV tax credit.

So that truck, while still cool looking and inexpensive, is now over $20,000 to get into it.

But this is across the board.

So that tax credit is gone.

The other thing that's happened is the removal of the cafe standards.

And this doesn't get discussed enough.

I don't want to be very careful, but I want to discuss these cafe standards.

This is essentially a mission standards.

And what's happened in the US, and this is directly connected, love it or hate it, to the rise of Tesla.

Because if you were Dodge and you're making himmies as far as the eye can see, you're polluting.

You're polluting beyond the standards you're allowed to pollute.

But you have to show the government that you are benefiting to cleaner air.

Here's an Aston Martin Signet.

So yes, that was one way to do it.

The other one way to do it was to do the Aston Martin Signet.

You sell that and then your fleet balances out.

But if you're Dodge and all you're selling is himmies, the way you did it is you went over to Tesla

who has no emissions and has all of these credits for making clean air vehicles.

And you buy Tesla's credits.

Yeah.

And you show those to the government.

Tesla made a lot of money doing this.

Tesla survived.

Not only made a lot of money.

Tesla survived.

That's because of this.

And to this day, one of the reasons Tesla runs in the black is not because of selling cars.

It's because of selling credits.

That has now vanished.

How does that affect Tesla?

I genuinely don't know.

Because they have over a decade plus slowly gotten into the black.

And slowly been more successful.

And I still think they are wildly out.

The value has nothing to do with reality for Tesla because they are a car company valued like the stratosphere.

But everybody thinks it's a future company.

So that's why the value stays up there.

There's lots of other reasons.

But the reason they ever got into the black.

I really have to hit this is because they were selling other companies that needed credits selling credits to them.

Yeah.

This has been a billion dollar industry.

I'm not kidding you.

That is gone now.

The thought had crossed my mind.

How do we become eligible to sell tax credits?

Because we could sell those.

How can we get some of those?

Because then we can sell them.

Wouldn't that be cool?

Maybe a ton of money.

I guess.

I don't know.

So I want to step to the side real quickly and say, my wife and I have that PHEV Cayenne.

All right.

It's a plug-in Cayenne.

It has about 13, 14 miles worth of electric use.

And I use it like that all the time.

I plug it in at night.

Just the normal house plug.

I plug it in at night.

Because we're three or four miles from our grocery store and all of our major errands.

So if I'm going to go out and get take out or grab something grocery store or check the mail or whatever.

I just hop and hurt her car.

It's not an interesting drive.

I mean, I love all our sports cars.

But that's not an interesting drive.

That's a commute drive.

That's the closest to traffic that you and I have in Park City.

I'll just roll over there in EV mode and roll back.

And it's perfect.

There is benefit and usability to EVs.

There has definitely been improvement in the actual air quality of many cities because of electric vehicles.

And I think it could be improved even more by more electric vehicles.

I am not suggesting there is no benefit to an EV.

I think they are great for commute cars.

I think that little runabout kind of driving that you do where driving performance doesn't really matter.

You just need to get there.

This is how I'm using my wife's Cayenne, which is a surprising performance vehicle when it needs to be.

I'm running to the grocery store.

Who cares about the quality of the driving?

Okay?

There is merit in EVs.

What I've never liked and I think the market has proven this out is you must get one.

You must get an EV and we're going to incentivize it to make the market look like they're doing better than they actually are.

This is an interesting reckoning here because before this, let me back up.

Before, these things were removed.

I can't think of a single manufacturer that we've talked about who has not already discussed changing their EV targets.

Retreating on their EV targets.

Porsche has talked about it.

BMW's talked about it.

Mercedes has talked about it.

I mentioned it earlier.

Mercedes went, oh folks don't like a turbo four cylinder that gets 800 horsepower.

We should make more V8s.

The entire upper echelon started by, acknowledged by Moté Remots, but the entire upper echelon of super hyper cars.

That entire market all the way to Ferrari going, uh oh, has gone, you know what we don't want EVs?

Mm hmm.

Yeah.

It was, for a little period of time, it was the shiny object of well, nobody has an EV.

I should get an EV isn't that cool.

That's behind us now.

So now we are into a world where I think hopefully EVs will be made for the things they're doing.

And I hope that the market will shake out.

I like that.

So that you will buy an EV.

I still think the slate truck is exactly what should exist in the EV market.

I think that's a fantastic selling under 20 selling at 25 tax credit or non.

That is really intriguing to me because it is modular.

Make what you need.

It isn't as heavy as it could be.

It isn't as elaborate as it could be because you're making it your own.

And they're trying to bring the price down.

Now you have other markets like China.

China is ruling EVs.

Mm hmm.

But China, how do I put this tactfully?

China cooks the books.

And I don't even, I don't even begin to know all the ways.

But you don't have to dig very far to see that China is subsidizing many of these EV makers like crazy

so that they show profit.

But they don't make profit.

Which is back to Tesla and the credits frankly, it's the same kind of thing.

It's just going on in China in mass on all kinds of EVs.

And China doesn't have a historical automotive world.

So they're just creating their own out of all EVs.

There's not something to take away.

Here we are in the US and also in Europe where there is a lot of legacy automakers who are trying to find their footing.

What I find fascinating is I feel like all of them are going well EVs don't sell very well.

So they're all pivoting.

Right.

And now you take away these incentives.

I am very curious to the next five years of EVs.

I was curious already, but now what's the next five years beyond this?

And then when there's a new leaders in the US and in Europe, what changes again?

We've talked so many times about that.

This is a moving target that is based on somebody standing in a lectern talking about, I'm going to do this.

And the all the automakers have to scramble.

But beyond all of that bluster,

we as people are voting with our wallets and going, I don't want an EV.

I want a PHEV.

I want a hybrid.

I want a whatever.

I hope this leads to lineups of everything.

Agreed.

Yes.

I will see.

It's interesting that you bring up the concept of EV technology being used for what it's good at.

Let's apply the tech to what it should and could be good at.

Because along with that, the statement has been the great change over.

The great reckoning or whatever we're calling it.

We're all going to flip a switch one night.

The switch will get flipped.

The thing, no more gas cars.

Those will completely go away.

We won't even know what gas cars were.

And it's going to be EV everything.

Well, in some cases, EVs haven't been good at some things.

Sure.

And applying that technology to them has not been a wise financial move.

And the market has certainly spoken.

But I'm also in full agreement with you that there is a great place for EVs.

So let's apply that to where it is great.

But every car company, I realized as I was researching and diving into the market for what we're discussing,

I could name the list of all the car companies that have pivoted from either the EU 2035 regulations or the US 2030.

It's all of them.

There's no point in making a list because it's across the board.

Every car company has rethought their plans and stated it in some way where it's,

well, we're still going to be investing in that technology.

But we've either pivoted away from investing in that factory or we're not going to put our money there anymore.

Or we've scrapped plans entirely because customers have proven they just don't want it.

Ferrari, for example, they do have a first EV coming actually designed by Johnny Ive.

It's going to be half a million dollars.

But they have shelved plans for their second EV because they're talking to their customers.

And car companies do listen of any major manufacturers.

I think car companies do listen to their customers more than most.

When customers speak, this is what they want.

That's why the hellcat engines pretty much went in everything except for the minivan.

They never did the minivan.

The minivan, yeah.

I mean, for Honda, the prologue is selling decently.

But then Honda canceled their EV SUV, the large SUV for the US market.

So that means I think every market is different.

It's not just a global flip, switch.

The market is all in one, all encompassing because people have different needs all of the planet.

Bentley, for example, they're long-term EV plans are scrapped.

But we just talked about this vision concept, which is a full EV.

And this is where they want to go.

This is what they're apparently their customers are asking for.

So why would you put time and effort into doing that design work?

If you didn't know that this is where customers eventually want to migrate to.

But Maserati canceled the electric MC20.

There's no demand there.

Yeah, sure.

I find it interesting about your Amira.

This is the last gas sports car that Lotus will ever build.

We'll see. Is it no?

Yeah, we'll see.

Are we sure about that?

BMW planned to invest 600 million pounds in electrifying the Mini Oxford plant.

But put that on hold.

Their CEO called on the European Union to rethink their ambitious 2035 phase out plans

and called it no longer realistic.

Yes.

You brought up rematch.

Uh-huh.

The new Torbillon.

Fascinating to read about this.

It's unaffordable except for the most, the wealthiest people in the planet.

Millions.

Yeah.

But what's amazing to me is they switched from the W16 in the Shiran to a V16 Cosworth engine

combined with the hybrid system is lighter than the entire powertrain in the Shiran.

Interesting.

The new car has more.

It's a V16 naturally aspirated with a hybrid powertrain.

Wow.

It's more, more, more, more, even better and it's lighter.

The powertrain itself, the entire assembly is actually slightly lighter than the Shiran.

Okay.

All right.

That means rematch is moving the tech forward.

It's, it's still incrementally going forward.

But what fascinated me most about all of this, it wasn't the car companies and noting the

fact that not only the car companies pivoting, now they're using the 75-hundred-hundred-hundred

tax credit going away as now a sales tactic.

To because you get your EV now.

Get your EV now before it goes.

You're right.

That it because around to like September, I think.

It brought me back to, I'll end on a little bit of history because what I found in all

of this is fascinating and it led me down the path of the grid.

You can't sell a product that isn't supported.

And I think the car companies and politicians and legislators went too fast, too soon.

Reuters reports from Pennsylvania, America's largest power grid is under strain as data centers

and AI chatbots consume power faster than new plants can be built.

So forget cars for a minute, all this AI that we're leaning into, all of the data centers

where we want to store it all in the cloud, which to your point, the cloud is just somebody

else's computer.

But anyway, it's not actually at a cloud, it's, it's, it's on a, it's on a, it's on a big

raft somewhere cooled off.

There's a bit of the Atlantic floating around somewhere.

So there's that.

Yeah, but that's funny because that, those take so much power.

We're not even talking about that even though this is what the news organizations are reporting.

Community bills are projected to surge by more than 20%.

This summer due to the region being them having the most data centers in the world, Tennessee

Virginia to New Jersey, and then I read about Google, they have recently announced an

agreement with a company called Commonwealth Fusion Systems to buy 200 megawatts of clean

fusion electricity from the company's first commercial power plant.

So check this out.

This is going to be located in Chesterfield County, Virginia.

It's expected to be the first grid scale fusion power facility in the world, and we'll

begin generating electricity by the early 2030s.

Sure.

Okay.

Everywhere I read is that cities, grids are not equipped to handle the influx of people

buying EVs.

And now combine that.

Or data centers.

Data centers and AI chatbots.

People's ability to use AI on their phone.

Yeah.

I don't want to write the thing.

Chatbot, read it for me.

Well, the data centers are hoping and puffing, yeah.

I am amazed to hear this because this is not online yet.

This doesn't exist yet.

It's amazing to read about fusion energy and think that this could be a possibility.

Google is counting on it.

Interesting point.

To your point, they are investing in that way as if it's going to happen.

That's a very, very good way to look at it.

I hadn't thought about it that way.

But then I come to cars as viewed by the people making the rules worldwide.

Cars are just a device.

The enthusiasts who unplugged from the matrix discover that cars are fun.

I mean, why would customers spend so much money on a device if it doesn't meet some

aspiration within them?

Sure.

Yeah.

And all the car companies, I don't think have realized there's a motion behind these

cars.

They will all kind of drive the same because everybody's figured out how the batteries

are to be built and it's really just styling and a different badge.

Yeah.

And no compelling reason for customers after early adopters have gotten theirs to upgrade,

to buy more to invest in these expensive things that aren't necessarily supported by the

grid, backed by power technology that still doesn't exist, even though Google is planning

for the future.

Other companies are planning for the future.

So cars that project an image of wealth and taste and cutting edge tech adoption or driving

or tracking enthusiasts, outdoor adventures, off-roaders or some level of success in your

business like a realtor or a home builder driving a big lifted truck.

They cost a lot of money, but somehow we all just cave into buying this expensive thing.

If it didn't have some sort of emotional connection and weren't something more than just

a device to get us around the planet, that has to be an element of why the market has

demanded more from EVs and has slowed the EV adoption.

Right now, the recipe for success is to find a golf course and then put a car show on

it and introduce some bottles of wine and everybody will flock to it and you'll make some money

and everybody will show up and it's just displaying cars attracts people.

People want to be around cars, they don't even have to run and people want to be around

cool cars.

Well, we have built an entire world, frankly, around moving around the car.

We've also built an entire infrastructure around petroleum.

If you would like to get away from petroleum, and that's the reason that you're like EVs,

that's fine, except for the fact that if all the cars are electric, just Google the things

that are made from petroleum in almost three quarters of this studio and the computer

you're watching on banish, it's really difficult to actually get away from that, but that

is a whole layer beyond what we're talking about.

I actually want to bring up one other thing here and I'm going to use an example from one

of our manufacturers as how to show you what I think were headed and that is Toyota as

an example.

This is just an example, okay, but Toyota has been working very hard on electrified vehicles

and I've been talking about electrified forever, but if you look at their current model lineup,

you have the BZ, which is their all-electric, all the way up to trucks, minivans, sports

cars, everything, the sports cars in the lineup are just about the only thing that don't

come in hybrid form and I think those days are numbered.

You think so?

I think so.

The GR Corolla is turbo-only, no hybrid, the 86 is manual transmission naturally aspirated,

which I actually love about it, but there's discussion about even like the Mazda Miata becoming

electrified, but what I'm excited about and the reason I'm showing the full Toyota lineup

and wanted to talk about the full Toyota lineup is only because they have everything.

They do sell hatchback sedans, minivans, trucks, sports cars, full electric commuters.

They sell it all and I hope that every manufacturer does this and I hope that we as consumers

speak with our wallets.

We didn't do it because we want to be early adopters.

We didn't do it because we are only about one power plant by the basis of what this

show is about, by the car that intrigues you, they are expensive and in some places, unfortunately,

you have to have a car to get around.

The real answer to all of this is public transit.

We don't want to do public transit.

We don't want to say.

We collectively want to go on our own little pod.

But public transit really is what solves major issues here, but what I hope is there is a

pancyon of cars from all brands and no brands are making a car because they are incentivized

to do it.

They are only making a car because we the public are buying it.

I am aware that there are incentives and tax loops for large trucks and these kind

of things.

That's why there was a tax loophole forever ago for things over 6,000 pounds so everybody

started making an SUV over 6,000 pounds.

I mean, these loopholes exist and I kind of hate that.

I'd like the market to speak.

The market is speaking prior to this tax credit now with this tax credit being removed and

the cafe standards being removed.

I don't know what the next few years looks like for any of these manufacturers.

It's going to be fascinating.

I want to leave you with this thought and that is a car that I came across called the

Never Satisfied La Jameh Content.

What do I look at here?

This is an electric vehicle built in 1899 that set the World Land Speed Record for reaching

100 KPH.

It was the first car to go over 62 miles an hour in 1899.

This is actually a Belgian EV with light alloy bodywork in a bullet shape listed as this

first vehicle to break the road land speed record.

From here, gas powered cars, made cars even faster, more accessible.

You didn't have to have the crank handle anymore.

Of course, you had the electric starter, but they just ran and they got more reliable.

This could have been the direction that cars have gone, that cars went.

This was 120 years ago.

My point is, it seems like customers then weren't ready for EVs.

It seems like 120 years later, customers still quite aren't ready for EVs yet.

This actually ran and it's been restored.

This is actually a replica here that you're seeing, but fantastic to have an EV called

Never Satisfied because that's what the market is now.

It is not satisfied right now, customers aren't satisfied yet the tech exists, but none

of the cars, the EVs are truly standouts.

There's the Lucid Air and it's got the longest mileage range now.

Tesla's just work.

The Hyundai Ionic 5-In is a blast to drive.

There's Rivians everywhere in Park City, but what is truly the standout?

It seems like even the McCahn EV, why not just get an Audi e-tron?

What about that?

It seems like of all of these things that car companies are trying.

What about it is really compelling and different.

This one was, it was not practical, but what a car.

What about at the beginning of cars?

We had steam, electric, gasoline, people were burning kerosene in cars, there was, oh,

it says fuel.

So the point is, we used to have all kinds of stuff, now we come back around to all kinds

of stuff.

We're very curious to see where this goes, but yeah, those incentives are done.

I know we'll get letters about EVs.

You bring up EVs, you mention EV and you get a letter.

You haven't said anything else yet, so we'll be getting letters in many YouTube comments

and thank you guys for watching and chiming in because this is a place that is volatile

to say the least.

At Sierra, I discovered top workout gear at incredible prices, which might lead to another discovery.

Your headphones haven't been connected this whole time, awkward, discover top brands

at unexpectedly low prices.

Sierra, let's get moving.

Let's move on to safer territory and that is a couple of car debates.

Our first debate is from Oivind in Norway.

Did I pronounce that correctly?

That's as close as we're going to get, I think, Oivind.

Oivind?

Yes.

He writes to us as, with the title now or never because he's 34, he recently got out

of an eight-year-long relationship.

He's always loved cars and finds electric ones soulless.

Interesting.

Okay.

He currently drives a 2016 Subaru Outback 2.5i to decent car, but it's lacking something.

You're fun.

It's a good car.

It's a perfect good car.

Not a fun car.

Yeah.

His previous partner never wanted a fun car.

Yep.

Mission accomplished.

She wanted something practical and sensible.

However, she's no longer part of the equation and he has this craving for a fun car.

He also has a Nissan S13, a garage queen he hasn't touched in years.

So one option is to fix it up and drive it, but to get it road legal, it needs to be close

to stock.

A 1.8 turbo four pot, he says, with 170 horsepower, 320 in current form is not exactly what he

had in mind.

So he's going to have to detune his S13 and make it less interesting if he wants to make

it road legal.

All right.

Good.

All right.

Project cars.

Everybody's got their pit down, which is poor money.

Yes.

And guess what?

Your project car isn't done.

I don't know what step you just put on it, but it's still not done.

Mine's kind of done.

I mean, it's kind of done.

You still have a list.

If I had to ask you, you have a list of things you would still put into your project car.

It can start and run.

I can drive it right now.

Yes, it can.

It's immediately.

I just, it'll run.

Uh huh.

Everybody with a project car still has a list.

Or even says what he has in mind is something with five cylinders or more.

Okay.

Or the sound.

So no four cylinders because they don't have an interesting enough sound.

All right.

He's thinking about getting rid of it all.

Clear out the garage.

Trade in the outbacks, sell the S13 and have one car.

He wants to keep it stock and just drive it, wash it, maintain it himself.

He lives so close to his work that fuel efficiency is not a big concern because he walks

to work.

All right.

He does a couple of trips to a cabin in the mountains throughout the year.

He has a great driving road and a fun car.

If he's got a fun car and he says maybe some trips to the shops, he would also hopefully

do a log of road trip in the summer with the car.

He hasn't had a road trip in an exciting car in 12 years.

Wow.

And he misses it.

Yeah.

No kidding.

Road trip.

Yeah.

Now there's some in this price range that he is open to for his budget.

So he wants us to talk him into buying something fun.

Well, where this is interesting is the restriction on four cylinders being out because I'm looking

at the at the cars here.

He's got essentially things from the mid teens.

So 2014, 16, 17, 16, 15, they're either outies, S4 wagon, S6 wagon, a BMW 2017 340i wagon,

a Jaguar F pace, a Porsche Macon, a Mercedes C43 AMG 4matic wagon that's a 2016.

All of these are between 2014, 2017 range.

So I started looking those up.

That gives us a budget of around 30,000 euro, 30 to 40,000 euro is about where we're

at.

But the difficulty is he wants fun and practical.

If you tell by this listing here, we're talking about all wagons and two SUVs, the F pace

and the Macon, which are kind of lifted hatches.

So anyway, so we're talking about wagon shape, but fun.

So it doesn't want to leave out back and go to non-wagon shape.

That's what he's suggesting.

But if you want to go wagon shape hatchback and you want to go fun, you wind up right

back at four cylinders.

So it's a loop.

And I've tried to solve this and I think you have as well.

I've tried to solve this, but I had a couple that don't work because we end up on this

weird cycle.

And he brings it up here.

He says he feels like fun cars with more than four cylinders are disappearing.

And it's now or never to get a fun car.

But I've been, you've made it harder than just get me a fun car more than four cylinders

because you're talking about wagon shapes.

So now we've got wagon that's fun to drive that is more than four cylinders.

We have narrowed this market to a point.

This got hard.

I've got a couple ideas, but this got hard quickly.

Very difficult.

I want to spend all your money, Oven, and tell you to go shopping for cupras and go

after a fermentor.

Not new ones, not a new fermentor, but that VX5.

It's fun and it's kind of hatchy and kind of lifted-ish golf are.

I think that could be interesting.

So then I thought about the car company that has always taken practical cars and turned

them into monsters, BMW, right?

I understand you're thinking wagons, you're thinking practical wagon, maybe some SUVs.

There are some benefits to the four cylinders.

I mean, they don't sound amazing, but you know, they do get a little bit better fuel economy.

But again, that's not the point.

So instead of that 340xDrive wagon, what about an M2?

The very first M2 engine in the front, trunk in the back, it's got usable rear seats.

You can throw stuff back there.

No, it's not a wagon, but I'm asking you about wagons, Oven, because I have not seen anything

in your email that says, I need space for my drum kit or a giant box is full of clothes

or I don't know what, but wagon, do you really need the wagon?

Or can you get the practical car that just happens to be a hot rod?

That's what I think the M2 is.

Yeah, I can see that.

Like the M2.

Yeah, I can see that.

That's a good one.

Not a four cylinder.

That's a fair point.

Yeah, it's very good.

I went to my absolute favorite for you that I think is the answer, except I think it's

probably twice your budget.

That's the Audi S RS3.

The RS3 comes in hatch form in Europe.

That's excellent.

You want fun, you want four doors and some practicality.

The Audi RS3, you brought up S4 and S6, and I like those, and you're right, they're

not four cylinders, but you said five cylinders are above, yeah, Audi RS3, that's good.

And wagon shape.

I think that is the answer for you, except I do fear that it's twice your budget, because

I looked, and the cheapest I could find them was like 50,000 euros, and I think that

for a mentor is five cylinders, the Audi RS3 motor.

Oh, you're right.

You're right, that would work.

Yeah.

You're right, that would work.

That would work.

That's for a mentor if you have five.

That would work.

Okay, that you've solved it there.

The RS3 works.

I have one that I really, really like for you, but you'll see why it's wrong, and that

is the Focus ST wagon.

Focus ST wagon?

What?

Yes.

That's cool.

I mean, they never brought them here.

I think they should have.

I think it's cool looking.

It's been through a few generations.

Everything I've heard about it is that it drives wonderfully.

Except for one fatal flaw for Oven, it's a four cylinder.

Because of course it is.

Because performance wagons are typically four cylinders.

Your favorite of your list, Oven, was the actual C43 AMG wagon, and it's hard for me

to argue against that.

I think that is a really solid one, and I do like it.

I like the RS3 a lot, but I have a wild card that I'm kind of excited about.

The wild card takes me over to Jaguar.

The XF 4.2 V8.

Not a four cylinder, that's sexy.

And it is a wagon from Jaguar.

You're going to be a little bit older at this point, but you're in the same, here's the

thing.

You're in the same years as the ones you're considering, the mid teens.

That's the era of this car that never brought it to the, well, they did bring it to the

US.

You just never see them.

There are some XF wagons, but some of you have written in it and said, I have one,

but you're talking about unicorns.

This is something you never really see, but they are out there.

They are spacious.

They're decent to drive.

People that I trust that have reviewed them have liked them, and they'll like the steering

compared to things like the BMW and the Mercedes.

This is the forgotten one on the list here, Oven.

And I think the 4.2 liter V8, and after this generation, after the 4.2 generation, they went

to a supercharged six.

So in both cases, you're talking about a Jaguar wagon that doesn't have a four, I think

this is your answer.

Unless you can go RS3, I like your Cooper, though, too.

But unless you go RS3, I think it is the Jaguar wagon.

Correcting myself again.

It is actually a VZ5.

I said VX5, VZ5, Cooper for Mentor, slightly used.

I think this is the play like crazy.

It is very cool.

It is very, very cool.

I think this is not an SUV.

No, it's not at all.

It's a hatch.

I think it's a hatch.

Of course it's a hatch.

It's a more interesting Golf R.

I like this a lot for you, Oven.

You've got some choices.

You've got some shopping to do.

I definitely understand your no four cylinder take, but there's so many good four cylinders

out there.

There are at this point, but they are a dying breed.

I see where he's going.

I see the logic.

I just, that takes so many things off the table.

Okay.

Thank you for writing.

Really appreciate it.

Happy hunting.

Paul's writing to us from Orange County, and he has a commuter question.

He's an engineer with 100 mile a week commute that he does about three days a week, and

not every, every week, but he's trying to find the right car that can handle that long commute

support family life, but still be fun behind the wheel.

He's just found our podcast.

Of course, it's wrecked his whole worldview.

He's now thinking about fun, which we're glad about.

It's very, very good to hear.

He's had a run of average cars.

The first car he loved was his 2022 BMW 230i.

He moved on from there to something he thought was a little more commute friendly.

You talked about the prologue earlier.

He bought one a 2024 Honda prologue touring.

He made the tough decision when they were expecting their second baby.

However, he's already tired of it.

He doesn't like it.

He's barely had the thing, and his wife has a Kia EV9.

So they have two electric crossovers.

I've warned you about this before, Paul.

I've warned you about this.

You go by two of the same cars.

If both of those cars are always going to be used for the exact same thing and you find

you can have tools for the job.

He needs a commuter, and he has this big prologue that is everything that his wife's EV9 does.

Another big four-door multi-seat SUV electric, and he doesn't like it.

He doesn't need it.

So he's hoping for some sort of fun car.

The idea is to get rid of the prologue, hopefully get out of the deal early.

He can move into something that can be somewhat fun, that does his commute, and maybe is even

fun on the weekend.

Then we get to the sentence.

My long-term lifelong dream is to own a Porsche 911, a Mercedes AMG GT Coupe or a Corvette.

Until then he's looking for a car that makes the weekday drive enjoyable and somewhat exciting,

but can still be practical and comfortable enough for 100-mile commute.

He has brought up various ideas.

I'm going to jump to Paul's ideas because he's listed three.

And as far as I'm concerned, only a couple of them are relevant.

He listed the Tesla Model 3, the Volkswagen Golf R, and he also listed Mazda Turbo.

That we like, Mazda hatchback, we like very much.

Now the Mazda, I'm only going to give it to you, Paul, if you get the Turbo.

The Turbo is worth it.

Turbo is very worth it.

Turbo is excellent.

The Golf R is very worth it.

That'd be a fantastic commuter.

Don't get a Model 3, and please don't misunderstand me.

There's nothing wrong with the Model 3.

But you have a electric commuter right now and it bores you.

Don't get another electric commuter.

That's the wrong idea.

The Model 3 is not going to suddenly be more interesting to you than your prologue.

I mean, I know it is a smaller car and its dynamics are slightly better, but the Model

3 is not the way to go.

I like your Golf R very much.

I actually like your Mazda 3, but only if you get the Mazda 3 Turbo, the Turbo is very

interesting and surprisingly fun to drive.

It also looks pretty cool, but I went a little off the reservation for Paul.

You're spending money?

I'm not spending money.

I'm going to a different kind of vehicle he hasn't considered yet, okay?

Because Paul, I'm going to repeat this back to you.

You have 100 miles commute.

You do three days a week.

So that car needs to be a commute car, most up.

You have a little bit of money, but when your family goes somewhere, you're going to take

the EV9.

That is the family car.

That does all of the family stuff.

You don't need to do any of that.

You need a commute vehicle that can also be fun.

You'd like a 911, an AMG GT, or a Corvette.

All good choices.

If that's what you're aspiring for, what we're trying to do is trying to find fun driving

that's commute driving.

Why on earth are we not talking about the Mianna RF?

That's small though, huh?

Because he wants decent gas mileage.

This is the reason you bought an electric.

You wanted decent gas mileage.

Those things get 30 miles to the gallon.

You're commuting by yourself true and when you're home and you take the kids somewhere,

you have the EV9.

This is the reason that you've realized the prologue is a complete duplicate and irrelevant.

This is really good.

You get the Mianna because what the Mianna is going to do is it's going to get you into

that range of the dynamics that you're hoping for in the actual performance cars.

You can't tell me that the 911 or the Mercedes or the Corvette are really that much more usable

than a Mianna.

I'm talking about people now, not stuff, because yes, the Mianna does have a lot of room

for stuff.

What are you taking to work?

You're an engineer commuting to work.

I'm guessing most everything you take to work is already at work or it's in a small

bag when you take it with you.

You're not hauling like gear.

It's you.

You want to get somewhere that feels kind of fun.

You said you want it to be somewhat exciting and still do commute stuff.

Mianna RF.

I know what you're saying right now.

You and your wife are both saying, well that doesn't have four doors, that doesn't have

four seats.

We can't take the, you take the EV9 anyway.

You need a commute vehicle that's fun.

I present to you the 30 mile per gallon Mianna RF and I'm done for the day.

I'm finished.

There you go Paul, I know I know I'm off the reservation and you're kind of you're arguing

to be right now.

I know you are.

Many of you in the comments are arguing as well.

But why not commute to Mianna and also drive her fun on the weekends.

Take the top down, take your wife out for ice cream, get a babysitter for the kids.

Let's just this does, you don't have to do the one day you can do the right now.

Have a Mianna.

Paul, I think Todd's selection and his argument is much better than mine.

I think you made a very compelling argument.

It's a commute car.

But he did want something more practical.

Yeah, that's four doors.

Because he's coming out of an SUV and he thinks he needs practicality, but the EV9 solves

it.

I'm sorry.

I'm re making my point.

Maybe he needs something a little bit bigger.

Okay.

Only he can tell us.

True.

Yes.

I still think your argument is rather compelling and excellent.

But what about the 2025 Civic Hybrid?

Sure.

I thought that this is so much fun to drive.

This is the commute and fun vehicle of choice because I want to recommend a Civic SI manual.

And I want people to go by a type R. Not really going to happen.

And then if we start talking about the Acura, well, it's too expensive.

Sure.

Yeah.

The new Civic Hybrid is still fun.

And guess what?

It has the same horsepower as the SI.

200 horsepower.

And it's got a little same torque, essentially, a little more torque.

A little more torque.

You're right.

And it's fun to drive.

I present to you the 2025 Civic Hybrid.

It's still practical.

This is a lot of fun too.

He's taking the prologue back to the Honda dealer.

He could have a conversation.

Interesting point.

I see where you're going.

Thank you for the prologue.

Hey, that new Civic Hybrid over there.

Could I just transmodify that and switch it over and talk to me about paperwork.

Okay.

That's what I'm just going to test drive up.

But we did like it quite a bit.

It's on our test drive channel.

So fun to drive.

It is surprisingly good because that chassis just got, yeah, we were.

We were.

So Civic Hybrid, it's the more practical, stayed not as much fun, but wait till you drive

it.

It's really fun.

We thought that, you know, if you just put the Type R seats and a little spoiler on

the back, yeah, and better tires transformed.

Suddenly, it's a mini GT car.

So we've taken you away from your SUVs.

I've got you in a Miata.

Paul's got you in a Civic Hybrid.

But either way you're going smaller and you're hopefully having a better commute.

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Our first car conclusion for today comes from Eddie and Charity in San Jose, California.

And Charity Eddie's wife wonders if she has become a car person.

It starts to seem like it here, yeah.

Recently, Eddie says he found themselves replacing Charity's red pole star tune 2015 Volvo

XC60 art design because it started having flaky electrical problems.

She had to finally acknowledge that as much as she loved this car, they had spent almost

$6,000 debugging and trying to find the electrical grimmings on a car that was only worth 16

grand.

And he finally said, we've got to be done.

And she said, I'm sorry, but you're actually right.

Eddie can't begin to articulate how much Charity loved that car.

She fell in love with confident handling and supercharged power.

It brought their son home from the hospital.

Oh, that's going to embed it.

That's a big one.

That's big, yeah.

She loved how the color popped in the driveway on the street or any parking lot.

The seats were delightful, of course, yes.

And there were no touch screens.

It was the car that compelled her to tell Eddie, you deserve to have a car that I love

as much as mine.

Eddie, her little $16,000 Swedish car is not in the same category of what you did with

that information.

You specced out of Miami blue 992 Carrera S at MSRP and bought it six days after she gave

you permission and said, why did she get something you really like?

You threw down, buddy.

That is a different financial reality cash cannon, seriously, by gosh, but here's the thing.

Now that they've gotten rid of that actual XC60, she has to find something she likes again

and then that became really difficult because you've discovered she has very specific standards

and one of her standards that I love this is she will not ride in a car with an air conditioning

blowing directly in her face.

Do not get this.

I relate.

I totally relate.

Don't share any fear of one mind here.

And she is frustrated that most modern cars place vents directly behind the driver's

hands.

I agree with you because they're trying to fight for screen real estate.

And when I have brought this up on our test drive, she goes, that's what I'm talking about.

We are of one mind, charity.

If you're going to get me air conditioning, it needs to survive Texas and those vents have

got to be unrestricted by anything else.

Move the screen.

Give me a bigger vent.

They've realized that as they've done drive homework, a lot of the cars fall off the

table because the vents aren't good enough for charity.

But she likes the previous generation, Kayan's interior because the vents were properly positioned.

I know what you mean.

They had a worldwide search and they finally found a perfect worldwide service.

It seems like it.

Yeah, it probably was.

They perfectly optioned platinum edition with only 9,000 miles on it and perfect air conditioning

placement.

It's white instead of red, but she thinks it has an elegance to it.

So they've even considered wrapping it in the upper gene, which is really very funny.

Sure.

So 2023 Kayan for her, but then when all of this was decided, and they realized they were

going to have a two Porsche garage, she said, am I now a car person?

So he went down his personal checklist for are you a car person?

First thing was do you prefer cars that perform well over have big screens and she said,

yes, are you uncompromising about your car choice?

Well, that was obvious.

So she said, yes, do you enjoy driving your car?

She said, yes, he said, from my standards, you're definitely a car person charity.

I think you are too.

So he gave her a Porsche Club of America membership for Mother's Day.

Did she like that?

Was that a success?

But their 10 year old is awfully excited about the fact they have an all Porsche garage,

which is good news as well.

I like Eddie's new list, whether or not you're a car person, you can take the test

yourself.

I love it.

Do you prefer cars that perform well over cars with big screens?

Are you uncompromising about your choice and do you enjoy driving your car?

That's an excellent list.

It does clarify people pretty quick.

Really appreciate you guys writing.

Congratulations on your all Porsche garage and your new Porsche Club of America membership

car charity.

Very nice.

Well done.

Tyson D writes to us because he just found the podcast only a few months ago.

He says he started listening.

He was hooked.

He has been debating about getting a third car and something purely for fun.

He had a 1993 Toyota MR2 naturally aspirated sold at five years ago to get married and

pay for school.

Now in his late 20s, Tyson wanted that fun car again, as was willing to go anywhere to

get it.

The worldwide search.

Yes, exactly.

Even importing it if he had to.

He told himself that he needed to get something other than another MR2, but he felt like he

sold his last one too early.

But then there was one episode that we both talked about just buying that one car you've

been thinking about and that you only live once.

That inspired Tyson to pull the trigger on a 1991 MR2 turbo with T-tops that he found

for a great price in Florida.

All cars are in Florida.

I guess so.

The condition is DVD, but all cars are in Florida.

I found my GT-T.

I don't know you did.

I found my fate in there.

That is the end of the spectrum right there.

My fate was every bit of $5,000 car to Florida.

Yours was not.

The SLK came from Florida.

It did.

Yes, we have bought multiple cars from Florida.

All cars are in Florida, just in case you're curious.

Tyson, thank you for writing.

I'm so glad you got that car.

You weren't done with it.

We say that all the time, but he got the version that he wanted, just like you did with

your Z.

Yes, he did.

He got the exact version from Florida.

From Florida.

I hope it runs well because sometimes the cars from Florida are a bit questionable.

Una silla de masajes puede parecer extravagante, ocho configuraciones diferentes, intensidad

ajustable, además es cale-faccionado, y se siente tan bien.

Sí, una silla de masajes puede parecer extravagante, y dos, bueno, aún más.

Pero cuando esas sillas de masajes vienen con un auto, se vuelven bastante prácticas.

Volks back in Tiguan con funciones premium como los asientos delanteros con masajes disponibles.

Solo parece extravagante.

Okay, so now we have to get into something.

This is our, did you see this category?

We're going to talk about the ring.

Yes.

We're going to talk about the nerve ring at length here because you've probably already

heard people talking about this.

There's a lot of discussion going on right now.

Some people are up in arms about how dangerous the nerve ring is, and I want to offer some

perspective because you and I've been there a lot.

We've been there at least ten times over the past decade because some years

we've actually gone twice, which is crazy.

We've been there a lot for guys that live here in the US.

We've been there a lot.

I understand if you live in Europe or you live right by the ring, you've been there

a lot more than we have, but we feel like we've been there more than a lot of American

automotive journalists.

We drive it.

We've driven it many, many times.

We love driving it.

It is my favorite track.

I love going back anytime we can.

We're going back at least once next year.

Please come with us.

I hate to be the bear of bad tidings, but the nerve ring has always been

dangerous.

The nerve ring has always had crashes, and the thing you have to understand is there is

something called TF days.

The actual term I love it is, the distant fart, TF days are the open days because technically

the nerve ring is a German toll road.

It is a two-lane German toll road.

Everybody is driving in the same direction.

That is when it is open to the public, otherwise there's track days and there's testing days

for people testing their new car or for people that are doing manufacturer testing.

A lot of that is the Monday through Friday days.

But a lot of the weekends are just these TF days.

They're wide open.

You put your car down.

You pay it's like 30 something euros a lap now, but you can go with the family and the

car seats.

No helmets.

You can literally drive it like a tourist.

But unfortunately on those TF days, there are the guys in the full race suits with the helmets

in the cage.

They're going for per se.

Sometimes.

You can find a range of people.

In the last few weeks, there have been a couple of nasty incidents, but I can't overstate

how common it is to have craziness on TF.

If you watch our original pilgrimage film, you remember this?

The first laps we did there was that Mustang on YouTube corner, Convertible Mustang on

its roof.

Oh, yeah.

It was complete.

The entire A-pillar had been crushed.

It was just this band of car, like the A-pillar had been sunk into the concrete, how it looked.

It was craziness.

That was our first lap ever.

So it happens.

I want to talk about two.

First off, I want to talk on one that happened a couple of weeks ago.

There was a 24-year-old on a TF day in a GR Yaris that had buddies in the car with them.

They had a rack.

People were thrown clear, and the driver was killed.

Yeah.

Now, I don't bring this up because I'm like, oh my gosh, outrage.

I'm saying, unfortunately, this isn't uncommon on TF days.

So you've probably already heard about it.

There is a lot of discussion.

We're going to show this video going around of this guy in a Porsche GT3 happened about

a week ago.

GT3 RS comes upon a BMW M2.

If you haven't seen this video, I'll kind of talk you through because it's a helmet cam

and he comes around the corner, or some sort of POV cam, comes around the corner.

The M2 seems like he's going right.

The GT3 driver decides to go in and pass him on the left.

Now, I want to talk about where we are on the track here.

This is right after Flann's garden.

It's on the first third of the track.

Right before Schwedencroyd's.

Now, you don't need to know those names, but the point you need to know is right after

this corner is one of the fastest, most open parts of the track.

You can hit 250, 270 kilometers an hour, 150 or so by the end of this stretch very easily.

We're already up well over 100 when this incident takes place.

So this GT3 driver goes for the gap between the M2 and the curbing and the M2 driver pinches

him down and pit maneuvers him into the wall.

And when he pit maneuvers him into the wall, it's one of the craziest things I've ever seen.

The gas tank explodes.

I don't think you could go and actually even make this happen again.

This is at the cargo everywhere.

The video is heinous if you haven't seen it.

What is most amazing about this entire story is both drivers walked away.

They went to the hospital.

They were checked out, but yeah, both drivers walked away from this and they were not,

from what I understand, they were not like we had Hans devices and harnesses and fire suits

and helmets.

They were just out on the ring.

I'm horrified looking at this video.

It's all over the internet.

You will be able to find it so you can see this exact video everywhere.

You can see photos.

The only way that I'm comfortable looking at this is because the driver survived.

Thank God they are alive.

Absolutely, yes.

That is the only thing that matters.

The cars do not matter.

I don't care about the cars.

It just matters that both drivers are alive and they walked away with minimal injuries from

what I understand.

I don't know if the, if either driver was wearing a helmet, it's not required.

We can get down into German road laws and what the, because it's a public road, what

the German cops decided to determine.

We still don't know at this point what they just determined as far as fault and how that

was applied because depending on what they decide, one driver could be responsible for

both cars or including fixing the, the armcoe, I'm horrified to see this video.

I cannot believe that both drivers walked away.

It is a testament to the engineering of both cars.

Thank God they survived.

Yes.

Yes, the ring is dangerous, but just like anything that attracts humans to something fun that

they want to get better at and that's something that we constantly strive for is to get better

at doing so.

But one of the reasons, one of the big reasons we acquired hooked on driving was because

of the coaching, the safety record and the coaching.

That's not something that ring days come with, or the TF days come with, here's the things

to keep in mind, folks.

It's supposed to be German road rules.

If you remember what that means when you're out on a toll road, clearly people don't.

And in our D expert class, that really is just the highest awareness of your surroundings,

the highest self awareness, the highest awareness of everything going on, including being

fast driving well, those things are important.

But that's applied when we are there with our partner RSR and they offer the same level

of high-end expert coaching that we want.

So both are everyday driver trips and are hooked on driving trips.

Those are offered with coaches because a lot of times people haven't driven the ring

before, but even if you have, we highly recommend coaching.

There's always something to learn.

And on TF days, you're relying completely on what you've done in video games.

Or if you've seen it before, maybe you also could go out without having ever seen a single

turn.

You might not know the track at all and that's a lot of drivers.

So TF, I feel like it can be even more dangerous and it was proven not that something like

this doesn't happen during a normal DE day or a track day or even a racing incident.

But small aircraft don't have the greatest safety record, but people still fly small planes

compared to large airliners.

I take your point.

Yeah, all right.

There's, you know, every outdoor activity on the plant, there's something that can go

wrong.

There's an element of risk in skiing and snowboarding and every sport you can imagine.

You can slip and fall on the shower candidly.

I've slipped and fallen on stairs from my legs.

It's the dream thing.

So there's nothing that's going to change with our trips.

We still want to provide the highest level of coaching and instruction so that you know

that you are sometimes your instructor really is your rearview mirror for you, instructing

you.

It can be.

This person didn't have that clearly and didn't have the experience or the awareness

level to be able to pull this off.

And I'm really sorry this happened.

It's horrifying to me.

Again, there's a drivers are alive.

Yes.

All that matters.

There's a few layers here.

And that is that is the key thing.

There's a few layers here.

And the first thing is while this is, it looks, it looks like a Michael Bay scene because

it's an explosion of gasoline and it just, it looks like a fiery scene because it is.

But yet everybody survived, which is amazing.

That is true.

But I want to come back to the fact that because this has video and because it is so crazy

is why it's getting so much coverage, Rex happened on almost any tractor you can think

of because somebody just reaches the edges of themselves or they had a car breakdown or whatever

it does happen.

It happens on public roads.

Really honest.

Sure.

So the other thing about a TF day is it is open.

So they can get two, three times more cars on track than you wanted a normal track day.

But the biggest thing I want to land on because the, here's why the internet cares and why

you are at one of the other reasons we're covering it.

Everybody wants to assign blame.

Blame, blame, blame, blame.

Who's it fault here?

Who's sure?

None of us are the drivers of these cars.

But the big thing I see in watching this video, you mentioned our D expert group all

the way from the A novices to our D expert group.

The big thing that is we're trying to instill in drivers and you and I are trying to constantly

learn and when we coach, we try to bring it about is just, where are you?

What's around you?

What's going on?

Did you see stuff in your mirrors?

How early did you see it in your mirrors?

I would bet money and we'll never know.

I would bet money that the driver of the M2 didn't know the 911 was there.

I think that's absolutely true.

100% think they were doing their line through that part of the track and had no idea the 911

was even around.

People want to argue that the BMW is getting over.

I think the BMW is just picking where he wants to be on the road and tell that 911 is beside

him and he is closing down to accidentally create a pit maneuver because anything you have

to know is the curves on the Nürburgring are like a ramp.

Yeah.

So you push a car toward that curb.

It's not just going to roll over the curb easily like it's a nice little gradual thing.

You've now pinched the car and there's nowhere to go.

So that exacerbates this pit maneuver plus it's a 911 so it's rear engines, all of these

perfect storm scenarios.

So it's awareness on both sides.

The person doing the passing is responsible for a clean pass but you also want to count

on the person you're passing to do something predictable.

And if people are not aware of what's going on, unpredictable things happen and you

see this result.

And I think the BMW driver had no idea the Porsche was there and the Porsche driver was in

a place in the track where they were about to be able to throw down.

And the Porsche driver was in a scenario where maybe they needed a way to beat.

I think there is there is fault on both sides here.

And the thing is, I've also heard this a few times when we've been the German police will

decide who's at fault and they almost never put it on only one party.

It is incredibly rare.

It's up to them to decide.

So they will decide because when it's a TF day, it is actually a public toll road and

the German police will decide, I am thrilled to your point.

I am astounded that these drivers are alive.

And the big thing I want to say takeaway is the ring is not necessarily any more dangerous

anywhere else, but it is dangerous because it's tight.

And people get in trouble when they aren't aware of the cars around them.

That is on your commute.

That is in a parking lot near you.

I was talking to my son this weekend and one of his friends, we were driving through

a parking lot.

I hate driving through parking lots.

That sounds insane.

So with the stuff we've done, parking lots are my least favorite place to drive.

I agree.

Because people we don't think in parking lots.

I need to go over here and I have had two wrecks in my driving career in a parking lot

and they were both astoundingly stupid.

Most parking lots are also very poorly designed and trying to get too many cars into two small

of a space.

Yes.

Because that's how you maximize your real estate.

I get that.

But most parking lots are terrible.

Yes, very true.

They're tough to maneuver.

We need to be aware.

Check your mirrors.

Make sure your mirrors are right.

I don't care if you're driving through a parking lot or you are driving on the nerve

ring.

Check your mirrors.

Be aware of the cars around you because we get so insular.

It's just me and the thing I'm doing.

I'm going in for groceries or I'm going for a corner apex.

We aren't thinking about anybody else.

And we're driving these big two ton machines and stuff happens.

We love the ring.

Things will continue.

Trips will continue.

We're always continually learning.

I think the entire car enthusiast community got rock back on their heels by this event

and asking everybody asking themselves, what can we learn from this?

And that is awareness when you're driving and continually learn and ramp your skills

up, which directly ties into hooked on driving.

I'm all about racing, but neither driver had anything to gain.

I am not assigning blame.

It is not up to us to assign blame.

That's up to the German police to do that.

Always ramp up your skills, continually learn, continually be aware, continually think

about what you're doing behind the wheel because we love cars.

Cars will always be fast and there's always going to be new models getting even faster

with more power and they're better, better, better.

And the ring will always exist.

We want as car enthusiasts want the ring to exist.

We want it.

There's so many fine line kinds of things in having the ring be what it is today to make

it operate and be available as a track to, but it's also a tall road and have the accessibility.

There's a lot of push and pull for it to exist the way it does right now.

We want that to continue, but things will happen.

We need to continue work on our own skills and that's what we're always all about and

we hope you are too.

The best coach just got better.

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Couple questions from you guys.

I want to remind you that we are only doing one podcast a week.

We're going to aim most of the time to ask for questions on Wednesdays, but we may move

the podcast around in the week, depending upon our schedules.

Why the week, one of the reasons we went to one a week, we hope you're enjoying the video

side.

We welcome your commentary.

Please share the podcast on also rate and review it on any of the podcast apps.

We'd love for you to rate and review.

If you're on YouTube, please share it and make a comment.

All of that helps us keep going and have this be what we do.

We love sharing with you guys.

We hope you'll join us on some of our upcoming trips.

You can go to everyday driver.com.

The adventures tab.

It's a little to the space for the park city drive days coming up very soon and the

bear tooth trip in September.

Beyond that, we will be going back to the ring and spa next year, hopefully doing some

other cool trips.

And reminder again, our Coda series is coming out on video on our everyday driver channel

on YouTube over the next couple of months actually because we got six videos coming out

every other week.

So those are coming for a while.

I'm going to start on Facebook with Anthony Zerg saying, are there any absolute no-go cars

for me and my son, even if it was fully funded by a grandparent?

Oh, this is a good, I don't know this.

What is the answer?

He said, what about the PT cruiser or the Aztec or the new Beetle?

You're right.

Anthony, all of those would be off the table.

But honestly, it would be just a five seat hatchback-sized SUV is a no-go, even paid for

by somebody else.

What are we doing?

Also anything really large, like 2,500 series pickups, not happening.

These are my no-go's.

Now, my wife's no-go's are on the other end of the spectrum, they're really, really small

stuff.

I wouldn't mind getting them an NC Miata, a third gen Miata, that's too small for her comfort

level.

Okay, so that's off the table.

Now keep in mind, this is the same son who, when we first told him, he might start driving

the old Cayenne.

He said, I don't want to drive the Cayenne, which I had to stop it.

We had to have a conversation about being a spoiled boy because that lives in Park

City.

We had to have that conversation.

It was successful.

I mean, come on, his dad has two lotuses in the garage.

That's ridiculous.

So we're trying to be a little bit realistic.

We have a low budget, there are some cars in consideration, then information is coming,

but that's just the mid-grade SUV, just no, even if it was like, here, take this and be

like, why?

That's not, that's teaching nothing.

It's teaching a lack of awareness as far as I'm concerned, and I know I'm being difficult,

but I want manual transmission, and yeah, PT cruisers are right out.

Also on Facebook, Nate M says, you've got 20 grand to buy the most beautiful car possible,

nothing else matters, nothing else matters.

What are you buying?

Oh.

Initially, Nate, I thought the car has to run, but if nothing else matters, and I'm buying

only for style, could I get a husk of an old Aston, like a DB5?

Okay.

I don't know that the DB5 husks are even worth that little, yeah, take your point.

Just the husk alone, just the body panels alone, surely those are just 20k, right?

Could I get a Ferrari replica of some sort of Maserati?

None of it runs, it doesn't work, it might not even have interior wheels or chassis or suspension,

it's just panels.

If that were 20 grand, just some old Maserati or old, could you find an old husk of a

Lamborghini Kuntosh?

Yikes, I wonder about that.

For 20k.

Okay, all right.

And it's just the panels, like that is sculpture and art.

It's a car.

It's car.

Why do you have a rusted-out car, do you live a group?

It's art.

You said nothing else matters.

You're right.

It doesn't run.

You can't sit in it.

It makes no noise.

Man, is it beautiful.

20k.

That's awesome.

I love it.

Thank you guys for all your comments on our new podcast format.

We really appreciate it.

We'll continue working on refinements.

We really appreciate all your feedback.

Write to us your social media questions when we ask for them.

So that, as Todd said, we'll be doing it differently throughout the week.

But hopefully, you'll see those come across on Instagram and Facebook.

And also, every day, drive a TV at gmail.com is the place for all your topic

Tuesdays, your car conclusions, those excellent car debates.

And if you just want to drop us a line, thank you to all of our sponsors.

Gria's Garage has been alongside us for the longest time.

They have.

We love their products.

Please support them.

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Use auto tempos.com slash every day.

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a OEM plus one upgrade or power stop breaks and power clear wipers there as well.

They're really good.

Actually, they're very cool.

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Thanks.

Cheers for supplying us with tires.

And we get to test them and show them on cars and tell you about them.

They make incredible products from their winter tires all the way to their Ultrak Pro performance

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We love those tires as well.

So thank you guys for supporting our sponsors.

We're looking forward to next time.

As always, cheers everyone.

EV Tax Credits Expire, No Four-Cylinder Cars, Have I Become A Car Person? | Episode 1,003

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