Evaluating and Empowering Technicians in the Hiring Process with Brian and Kat from Promotive

If you didn't get along with the owner, and then you didn't get along with the owner, and then you didn't get along with the owner, and then you didn't get along with the owner, like, at some point you have to look at yourself and say, how am I part of this equation as well?

Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen, to another exciting episode of the Jada Mechanic podcast with me today. Very good friends of the podcast, they are, they are people coming from promotive, our good friends at promotive who support us in such a great way. I have Miss Kat Ayers and Brian Burris with me today. How are you guys?

Good, good, how are you?

I'm fantastic, man. I've had a pleasant day. Like I was just saying, before I got on here, I took my dog, my little dog to the groomer, which is always an episode because she doesn't like the groomers. She doesn't really like anybody but me. She's only a little six pound maltese mix. So we make a very odd pairing when I carry this little white, tiny purse dog in everywhere I go, right, because almost 300 pound, big, burly, bearded mechanic with this little purse dog. But. So it's been an ordeal because I thought I warned you guys, technology, me is not always the best friends.

I thought my appointment was 930. I show up at 915 habitually early like I am, and they're like, no, I don't have you on the books here till 1130. Okay, now I gotta go kill 2 hours. So, so we heard, I just drove around and did some stuff and then come back and it was all good. But I mean, it's like, yeah, yeah.

That'S a little bit of a forced break, so good for you.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, and this is, that's the beauty of my job. It's only Monday to Thursday. So, you know, it's. And I never would have thought that would be such a key thing going forward into, you know, potential shops and whatever. It was just an added bonus I didn't expect when I did the interview, it wasn't in the posting that, hey, we're only open four days a week. So when I get there and I'm like, what you mean every weekend's a long weekend? Sign me up. So you guys see that a lot, right? You're seeing lots of people coming at the industry with different ways of kind of enticing us.

Do you want to talk about that?

Yeah, actually. So I spoke with somebody today. They're out in Dallas, so they're doing half day on Friday. So 730 to twelve. They're trying to get to the point where they can get their production up throughout the week, you know, Monday through Thursday, where they can actually close on Friday. But, you know, when I started off in the industry, we were seven days a week. So this is, this blows my mind when it's a four day week with these shops.

Yeah, now when you say starting industry, Brian, can you give us a little background?

Um, so again, like you said earlier, it's the passion, you know, for automotive and I've always had that. My dad and I started off working on cars in the, in the driveway and uh, throughout high school I just started changing oil, doing the tires, starting at the bottom, and I fell in love with it. You know, I was going to school for pre med and here I am in automotive my whole life and I couldn't be happier. So, you know, started turning wrenches, learning more, and then was with Firestone and another big nationwide company out there too. And then I got on board with Napa about 13 years ago and started off there and managed a large district out in the, in the midwest, so. But here I am at promotive. Yeah, I love the, I love the actual recruiting part of the business too, of finding good techs. Cause I know how hard it is.

Throughout my years, it's just been a struggle. So being part of that and helping techs find jobs and also, you know, shops, finding that right person with the culture, that's a huge thing.

Now, I gotta ask you, that's a real different jump off to go from pre med to automotive. And you said you started it with your father. So traditionally, sometimes we meet a lot of technicians or people in the industry, period, and they go, I've worked for a shop owner, he's like, my kid's not going to do this. My kid's not going to work on that. My own father was a auto body collision guy and he hated the idea that I was going to be a mechanic. Hated it. Said, you're crazy, why would you ever want to do that? Do you not? And I'm like, use sand cars. I'm going to make the cars go fast.

I'm going to eclipse you, dad. Don't worry about it. Boy, was I ever wrong. Sometimes the things that he warned me about was still there. So did your dad, when did your dad look at you like, why? Are you crazy for not following through on premed?

No, I mean, so my, both my parents were in the medical field their entire lives. So, you know, they've always supported me on whatever I wanted to do, but my dad saw my passion for it and they just encouraged it.

Yeah, that's good. Kat, what about you?

Yeah, so I came into the automotive industry via technology. So I. I used to work for kind of a larger technology company called Velo. They acquire a number of other technology companies, so SMS's, DVis, et cetera. And so many of your listeners, I'm sure, use those technologies and love those technologies. And so that's how I came into the industry. And of course, you fall in love once you get in here. You fall in love, right, one time and you talk to people and you see this, like, amazing passion.

You can probably look back to when I was like in elementary school. My favorite job was to be a race car driver. I still really like to drive fast. So, you know, there's some deep roots there somewhere. But, yeah, I came in through technology and then I met folks like Joelle, who's one of our co founders, and Lisa met them. Huge passion in the industry and really helping, you know, not only shop owners. I think this is our bigger leap into the technician space, is really saying, you know, what are we doing to serve the technicians that are actually powering this industry? And that's where promotive came in. It's a critical, it's a critical need and we got to do better.

Bye. By all of the technicians out there. So, yeah, I came on with Lisa and the team and I do operations, I do HR and finance and all that good stuff. But one of my big passions is data. And Brian and I are going to talk a little bit more today about how folks can really own their own data and how powerful that is when they're in the job market, when they're asking for that raise, whatever it is. Data is very powerful and we just want to encourage your listeners to own their data and meaning their statistics and their metrics and all that good stuff, and we'll talk some more about that.

Yeah, I admit I'm self admitted. I am not somebody that is up to date on not up to date. I mean, I kind of know what the numbers mean, but it's like whenever I've gone through and done an interview, people that listen to me a lot know that, like, you're not going to see, if you say, show me your production numbers, you're not going to get blown away, you're not going to get the true story of what it is, that what I am and what I can do, I've always challenged with it. It's like I've got notebooks that I could show you, wacky, weird, complex diags. I can show you the work orders and stuff and the process that I went through to that, but my numbers don't ever reflect that. So it's like, as I'm aging out now and I'm seeing all these things that people are talking about, you got to know your numbers. You got to know your numbers. I got to know your numbers.

It's like I'm playing catch up again with that. You know, like, it's like trying to get on board with that kind of give us. Because we all know the big one, right? You want to know what's your, what's your production, right? What are your average on that? We all kind of know what that. But can you touch on some other ones, guys?

Yeah, I mean, so obviously the big one is production flag versus turn hours. You know, being. Being able to, excuse me, being able to have some kind of data that you can take in front of somebody, like Kat had mentioned. You know, when. When we have a technician that we're interviewing, we'll ask, you know, how many hours a week are you turning? But they can say 80, they can say 100.

Right?

We're never going to know that. But if you actually look at that data and you can provide that to us, that's another selling point, especially when we're selling the candidate to the shop. So, again, going back to knowing your numbers, there's other aspects, too. Arroze. Right. That's a big one. We want to see, you know, a shop owner was going to want to see. What are you recommending, you know, when a car comes in.

So not only just for the service advisor. I mean, that's a big one for the service advisors. Correct. How much can you sell? But how much is the technician actually recommending? You know, you're not just pencil whipping the inspection.

Yeah.

DVI completion is another one.

So because I, like, I can tell you from a former dealership tech, a lot of that was a pencil whip. A lot of it was, like, in it. And it's set up for you because your service maintenance interval is set up that way. You know, like a 20,000 kilometer. I'm canadian, so it'll be metric 20,000 kilometer service. Is this a 40,000? Is that. We could tell you to the. To the t what each service paid like.

You know, it was just. So if you got one in around 100,000k, you know, we used to. I remember my time at Hyundai, it was like, if you got a service four that was like a front and rear brake service, a timing belt, you know, a fuel induction service, depending on maybe how it might have been as far. That was your morning, you know what I mean? Like, your day was already handled for one part of it anyway. With one dispatch, it was great. Now I'm seeing that that is going away, and then I'm seeing, it's like the Dvi thing is very new for me, and it's like, so a lot more thorough inspections have to be done in order to find the work. I mean, the work's still there, but it's like, now how we have to go and document it is even more critical. You know, it's.

It's not alert, it's not an obstacle for me. But I talk to a lot of people that are like, I just. I'm struggling with it, you know?

Yeah. I mean, and again, you guys both mentioned knowing the numbers is important. And to your point, I think, Jeff, that it's not the total story, but it is such a big part of the story, and it's a big part of the story, even post hire. So the numbers can help us not only sell the candidate at the higher rate or the higher bump once they hit their productivity thresholds, etcetera, it can help us sell the candidate. But should things not work out quite the right way, then the technician actually knows. Was it me? Was it them? Did they not have the car count? And by the way, asking in the other direction is totally appropriate. So if you're interviewing at a location and they're saying, oh, well, we have the car count, we're definitely overworked. You also can ask for those numbers.

I need to see that they have the car count so that I can turn the numbers that I need, so that I can make the money that I'm expecting to make. Right. They can, you know, anyone can dangle any number in front of you, but if you can't hit those hours, you'll never get paid that amount.

Yeah.

And so, so I'd say the numbers are really just, they're a piece of the puzzle, but they're an important piece because they're just very powerful when it comes to that negotiating. But again, I would say, you know, don't hesitate, especially if you're working with a recruiter, one of our recruiters, or anyone else. You know, you can ask those questions, too. You can get that information from the shop owner, and you'll be able to tell the difference. Right. If a shop owner can't answer those things, with some sort of data. I was just gonna guy who's gonna be able to, like, make sure you're getting what you need from a compensation perspective.

I was just gonna ask you that. So when you sit down now with some owners or people that are in the hiring position, and you say to them, have these numbers ready for the tech, does some of them still look at you like you're crazy? I'm not gonna share that with them.

No. I mean, even part of the, when we meet with the shop initially for the first time, we do ask those questions, you know, how many cars are you seeing a week? What's your average tech that. How many hours he's turning a week?

Yeah.

And obviously they're going to, they're pretty honest with us. They're upfront on the, on the back end of it. And we do share that with the technician, too, that we're interviewing and their service advisor. So we always get that information provided to them, too.

Right.

And a lot of times we do have technicians that actually, they're asking those questions, how many hours are they actually turning? What's their car count? And that's impressive to see. And we do notate that on paper. And I communicate that to the shop owner.

Yeah. Because my tradition always was like when, especially from the dealership standpoint, because up here, flat rate in a non dealer environment isn't as common as I'll say. This is what I see talking to people that work on the other side of the border. I don't know if it's the rust factor or what up here, size or what, but it's like, yeah, I can remember for years, it was like, if you never saw an independent pay flat rate up here at all, the only people that were playing flat rate were like, chain stores and dealerships. That was it. So. And I'm still not seeing flat rate come on real big now. But I can remember, like it used to be that you would go and do the interview and they dangle.

Oh, you're going to turn 60 hours a week. Oh, we got car count coming out of our butt, you know, and then you, but you would go and you'd move your toolbox into the, into your bay, and they'd immediately was like, or even when you're walking through, right, you got a shirt and tie on, you walk through the back service area and he's showing you around. You can just see all our eyes are on you. Right. And you're like, what's that? You know, what's that about? And because you knew. I've talked about this before. Sometimes you're getting in, brought in to replace somebody that doesn't even know they're going out yet. Right.

And then sometimes that person, why they're going out is either because they can't produce a. So what I started to do is if I was going to go work in a place like that, I already had to know somebody that worked there before. So I got the real scoop, the skinny on what was going on. Because they can tell you truth out. It's like, you know, because they'll say, I got a tech downstairs that turns 60 hours every week. Well, yeah, one tech, turn six.

Or. Let me talk to him.

Yeah, cool. Let me go talk to him. And it would always go two ways. It would be the one guy that had all the certs and all the training and got like, really taken care of. Or it was like this old piece of wood in the back who got fed everything. Because like, if they didn't feed him, he had all the certs. And then their warranty claims couldn't get done right. So there was always two sides to that.

So it was an interesting mix. Now, what I love is the fact that we've come on so far on technology that's like, you can do a key search, find somebody that probably worked in that or talked to a tool guy or something like that. What's the real going on over there? And they'll tell you flat out, right? But I can remember walking in there, who's this guy? Why is he here? So the last couple jobs, I've always tried to know somebody in the building if I was going to go work in that flat rate thing. Um, I'm not anti flat rate. I did it for years. I. I don't have a problem with it. I just.

It's got to be. So many irons have to be perfectly aligned before it works. I'll say that for sure. I've seen it go off the rails too many times. I've seen whole shops that don't produce because, you know, you start to needle down on the people, oh, can you just do that for free? Can you just do that for free? And then all of a sudden, it's like they have no motivation to turn hours. Cause they feel no matter what they do, it don't work. And then you've got a whole bunch of people that it's like you can't motivate them because they don't trust you. Bring in a new manager, you bring in a new advisor, they don't trust that they're still going to get treated better.

It's tough. It's tough. So we talk about production arrow. Can we kind of touch on that a little bit? Because that's something that, like, from the tech standpoint, I don't see how I have a big factor in an arro except to do the DVI.

Right. So. Absolutely, like you said, you don't, as a technician, you really don't. You're relying on that service advisor. But one thing you need to look at, too, we'll touch back on the inspection process. Are you actually recommending the services that need to be done?

Yeah.

If you, if you're pencil whipping it and you're just blowing through the DVI or even the paper inspections like we used to do back in the day, you're doing, you're doing a disservice for yourself.

Yeah.

Because you're not, you're not giving the service advisor a chance. So arros. Right. We can't, as technicians, control that, but have a goal.

Right.

Make sure you're actually doing the DVis 100%. I don't know how many times I've seen inspection papers come up and the, you know, from the a l one tech, and you didn't sell anything. Well, you, you didn't put anything on the ticket.

Yeah.

How many times have I gone back and given it to him? Like, come on, I know you pencil whip this one. So, you know, do yourself a favor and actually do the inspections and then, you know, put the ball in the service advisors court. That's their job, to sell it.

Yeah, yeah. Give me 1 second, guys. I got to shut my window. My doggie's barking.

I was making sure that nobody could hear my dog snoring.

Sorry about that. She gets a little, she's, she's feisty. Oh, let me, let me ask you, because that's an interesting thing. So we've heard some people have detractors against the DVI and the 300% rule and so on and so forth about the industry, where it's like you can overwhelm the customer with all that. You can really seem like everything is like upsell City, you know, you're not necessarily addressing the complaint the car came in for so on and so forth. Like my shop, traditionally, we get a lot of cars with a complaint, not of a, like, I'm here for an oil change and what else are we going to sell? Whereas at the dealership, they were worried about, they're doing their maintenance to protect their warranty and, you know, we talked about. They've got the scheduled service intervals. Some customers just want an oil change.

Some customers want the full jam, you know. Does it work both ways, though, when you're dealing with recruiting for a dealership versus, say, recruiting for a smaller, I want to say, breakdown style shop versus a forward thinking maintenance shop?

I mean, so we're really in the independent, you know, the independently owned shop market right now. And you do have those technicians that are, you know, been customized and tailored to the dealership where everything's on a platter. I mean, let's call it what it is, but it's a little bit easier. You're not having to go find work. Yeah, that's another spot where we're not in yet with the dealerships again. But you do have technicians that don't want to be in the dealership anymore. They want to work on different makes and models. So get out of the.

But also I think it is important to, like, think about the difference in the ability to turn that many cars, turn that many hours, turn that many jobs because they are similar jobs over and over again, which is, it causes the boredom, but it also causes a bit of a change management issue, so to speak. I'll just call it that because I don't have, like, a better term for it when somebody is trying to transition to an independent dealership. Right. So to Brian's point, they didn't have to go hunt for their work. Right. Their work was kind of planned, scheduled. There are a lot of front office people. They don't have to necessarily talk to a client or a customer ever.

Sometimes in an independent, you end up trying to explain something, you know, that kind of thing. So I think it does, it can cause a little bit of a transition. I think our account managers, certainly with, with our company, really try to take that into account when they're looking at fit for somebody, going in both directions. But I think it's a good call out that, you know, the type of job matters, the things that, the things that you can control, meaning if you're in the back date, you know, you're the DVI and you're trying to get the information up to the service advisor. Your relationship with the service advisor is what you're showing off there. You might not be able to increase the arrow specifically, but your relationship with the service advisor is also then helping them to ideally upsell. So it speaks to the relationship. Again, the data is speaking to some portion of the story, and that just might be, while I can't write up the ro myself because I have such a great relationship with my service advisor, I'm able to talk to him more kind of crisply about why he should stress this job versus this job with the customer, which can help in the long run.

Drive up arrow. So I think a lot of those points are super valid and they're points that we certainly try to take into consideration. I think these are good reminders from the technician level. How do we normalize for that? How do we prepare people for interviews to ask the right questions around those types of things, etcetera?

It's a crucial, crucial relationship, the advisor and technician. I know my best partner I ever had at a dealership was an advisor that I knew he'd go to war for me and I'd go to war for him. I was willing to help him out with a problem car, with a problem customer because I knew that he would put me out in front then to make sure that I got taken care of in return. Like it was a you scratch my back, I scratch yours type scenario. Right. I think that that's getting, it's getting lost a lot lately now with, you know, and then, and I don't know why. And I've, you know, I borrow a lot of arrows for that. A lot of people.

Oh, you're, you know, so and so's favorite tech. No, I just. That car came back four times a. Nobody else could fix it. Nobody else wanted to. I fixed it. Now that customer only wants me. Right.

And then you can build that within the business. So it's a weird dynamic because I've also had advisors that it's like I wanted to choke, you know what I mean? Or they didn't want to pay me or, you know, we'll make it up on the next one type thing, that running joke in the industry. And Brian, I've heard lots of technicians, I've interviewed lots of technicians, and they talk about, give me some insight from the firestone perspective, what's like, were you able to have that kind of relationship with advisors there, or is it kind of because it's a corporate thing, is it a little more squared off on what is not allowed?

No. You actually have that relationship still with the guys in the back, right? We're working side by side with them. I'm going to go out there and talk to the technician before I present this to the customer, get a better understanding of what I'm going to sell. How do I explain it to the customer in layman's terms? But I think even with the corporate structure, you're still going to have that relationship, that one on one with the service advisor and the tech.

So I struggled. Cause, I mean, I had one guy, you know, who was like I said, I trust him with my life. Then I had other ones that were like, they had a little bit of a sleazy sales, you know, used car salesman kind of vibe where they would say one thing but not always come through completely right. And I think that that's the big limiting factor when I hear, because we've seen it like we've seen the conversations with no advisor should make more money than a technician, and technicians are dirt and advisors what make the wheels go around. I think that sometimes comes from both sides where we don't have people qualified really in the role that they're in. You know what I mean? I have a bunch of people that I'm forced to dispatch work that maybe isn't to their strengths in the back shop. And then we have the other technicians that go, listen, I can fix anything you bring in here. I just need you to be able to sell the time it takes me to do the job to the standards that you want done.

That seems to be the rub all the time, right. Is we can't get always a cohesive unit of what's going on there. I think flat rate sometimes plays into why that doesn't happen. It's too scared to sell the time and then you have the other tech on the other side. It's like I went down a rabbit hole on this diag and now I don't know what to do because I'm not getting paid. Right. A tough, it's a tough thing. What do you, how do you, how do you work around that?

So I, I lived by this term back in the day. I didn't buy it, I didn't build it and I didn't break it.

Yep.

You know, I mean, let's be honest here. It's, it's our job is to inform the customer to, to make them aware of what's going on. Um, obviously you're, you're in their pocket, their cars in the shop, and it's broken, but you just have to be honest with them of, you know, this is what it really needs and the time that it's going to take to figure out what it is. So we're not just slapping parts on the car and wasting your money, wasting our tech's time or, you know, even the parts companies delivering parts down there. So being able to explain what we do during a diagnosis of that particular thing I think helps. And like you said, you know, you get the shady car salesman guys out there. What we really try to do is match that culture to the shop, and that's a big part of it, too. So we want to match the service advisor to the tech and vice versa.

We want to flip that so we don't have that disconnect between the shop and the front office.

So kind of give me another critical number that I'm not thinking about, because when I was sitting here going through this morning, I was like, well, if somebody asked me a numbers kind of thing, I could tell them that, like, I don't take ten sick days a year, but I mean, what's some other, what's some other numbers that the tech needs to be more aware of?

You know, a lot of, just thinking back recently, what do we all do when we go to buy something or we go to a restaurant? We look at reviews, right? Everybody's review driven business. Now, you know, one thing I got thinking of, too, is how many reviews do you get from that customer that call you out online where you know everybody at the shop by name? How do you do that? How do you reward your tech for doing a, you know, exceptional job? Yeah, that's another way to look at it, too, because one technician is going to get rewarded if we get a review, right? Let's buy them lunch or something. Give them an Amazon gift card. But also, that's going to benefit the shop. So that's another measure. You know, if I had a review, I could go on Google and it mentions me specifically. I'm going into, hey, bam, look at this. This is what I could do for your shop, too.

That's a great point. Yeah.

So that's one thing I think about, too.

Social media has really changed that, too, because it's like the last employer I had before coming here was the first employer that ever had me. Like, in you, in Facebook videos, you know what I mean? Or Facebook post by, by picture and by name. I mean, there was my bald head working on something, you know, like, so it was, that was, I would have never thought in 98, when I started doing this, that would ever be a thing. You know what I mean? That we would see me in a Facebook post.

Yeah. Well, I would even add on to that a little bit more when I think about, you know, in a, I come from a technology background, so I had a manager and I had quarterly check ins or quarterly reviews or annual reviews. And in those kind of very bigger, formalized companies, they're formalized and they're in a system and all that kind of stuff. You can write a self review anytime you want to. And included in that self review can be, what are your numbers for this quarter, and what were the particularly interesting jobs that you worked on? Think about how could you work with a service advisor to get more of those? It feels odd the first time you do it, but I would say, again, these are just little scorecards and little nuggets that you just write it down, you put it away. And when you're interested in looking for a new job, when you're interested in having a conversation with your current manager about a pay increase or something like that, you have documentation of your Google reviews. Brian just brought up, you've got trends. Even if it's just once a quarter.

You pull your averages. You have trends over time of your average ro going up, and things like that. So what are the other things that you would want a manager to tell you? You can do a self review. You can also ask your manager for a review, and particularly if you have a good relationship, I think those are good things to ask for. But if you don't have such a great relationship, you can. You can do a self evaluation of what you did and didn't like about your working environment. So that, again, if you decide to look for, you know, a change or a move to a different shop, you're not, like, trying to think in the heat of the moment of all the things that you love or hate. Rather, you've kept up over time.

And I learned this the hard way. I asked a boss about 15 years ago for, I'd say, a significant raise. I did compensation for part of the company, so I knew what other people were making with my title, et cetera, et cetera. And I asked for a raise. And he. I felt like. Like, patted me on the head and said, oh, good puppy. And, like, kind of shooed me away.

Well, when I came back the next year, I had, like, a nine page self evaluation with every bit of data throughout the year of projects I had worked on, of, you know, revenue I found or saved or billings that had been corrected or whatever those things were that mattered, and I had a whole slew of data. And so that conversation was like a no brainer. Like, what's he gonna say? I have a year's worth of data in front of me? So, again, I'd say those are ways that, you know, as a technician, you can really own your data, your information, own your career. Again, you know, I will always pluck our company to support you in any way we can. But, like, you can do this on your own with a Google document and, you know, and basic typing skills. It doesn't have to be complicated.

Yeah. I have a good, good friend, fellow podcaster Joshua Taylor, and he talks about, he instructs a lot of his young people that he's kind of nurturing into the industry to journal.

Yeah.

Journal what they do, journal what they solve. And so for me, way back when, what kind of set me on the path of against, necessarily not against production, but where production, to me, it's a trigger word. It's because I kept photocopies of the work orders of the cars that came back that I had to fix. Right? So then I had this stack, like, I had a 200 page notebook equivalent of work orders and handwritten notes on it. What I had to do, where the fault was. This is before cell phones, right? We're going back, like, free y two k. So when it became time, and it's like we had to part ways and somebody didn't understand my numbers because my numbers were not documented. I was the guy that went to when the car come back here, fix this.

And it was a lot of unapplied time, a lot of unbilled time. Right. Just fix the car. Make it right. Cool. No problem. I can do that. I was paid hourly.

When I then submitted this to them and said, here's this, I kind of had mouth open, eyes wide. And I was thinking about that today because I was like, I would love to still have that book. You know, like, I left it sitting on the desk. And in hindsight, for me this morning, as we're thinking about this, is like, I should have picked it up and taken it with me because it'd be so cool to go back on it now and look. And, you know, some things I would have been so proud of at the time of fixing that. And now it's like, every tech that's worked on that product line is like, oh, yeah, that's common. Like, we do that all the time. But I was one of the first to find it.

You know what I mean? Like, spliced s 236 buried underneath the carpet that's all green and corroded. I was the first one in my area to find that. Now it's. There's a bulletin about it, but that was me. That's kind of what I. What I tell techs all the time.

Yeah.

Documentation is so important. You know, it's one thing to just, like, fixed car, you know, repaired wire. Like, you gotta go more than that now because it's like when I'm selling myself to an employer and that's what a lot of it is. It's selling, but it's me interviewing the business. I don't look at it as they're interviewing me. I look at it as straight up as like they need me more than I need them. Unfortunately with the technician shortage the way it is. So I need to really flesh them out.

So I'll go in there and I'll say, I've taken this course, I've fixed this technology, I fixed that technology. What do you do when those kind of cars come in and sometimes they roll right through with it and other times they look at it and be like wow, well then that kind of wow, you're not there yet. I have to look at and go okay, maybe I'm not going to get the stimulus there from this job that I got from the previous one and I have to maybe make a lateral shift to where I'm not going to fix so much, I'm just going to produce here. Or are they hiring me to bring in that level? You know, that's the other thing too, right? It's tricky. It really is.

Yeah, yeah, I agree. Choosing that career path also what's interesting to you I think, is hard, and it's hard to reflect on that again without having to your point, a journal or something where you can look back and say, you know, oh, those times where I got to coach other people and teach them how to fix, those were more interesting to me. I can see those were more interesting to me than the times where I had to be head down by myself just fixing away. Right. So now I know that I really like to collaborate. So when I'm, you know, looking at my next role, I can say I really like to collaborate. So when I'm evaluating that shop, to your point, the technician is interviewing the shop as much as the shop is interviewing the technician. You can ask those questions.

You should ask another tech or another service advisor. What is the collaboration look like here? You know, I mean it's like everybody likes to say, yeah, well, you know, we do pizza once a month or whatever, but like do you like choose to eat lunch together sometimes? Like do you truly like each other? Like, I mean when we go on some of our company trips, like Brian and I stay in the same house, there are like twelve of us in the same house. We like each other enough that we're eating breakfast, lunch and dinner together. Right? So not that everyone has to be like you know, but I do think if that's the thing that makes you happy in what you're doing, then you got to focus on that, and you have to make sure it's part of your culture. So I think it's different for everyone.

I think it's very telling because, like, the running joke used to be, if you want to take a room in the dealership and build it that nobody will sit in, make it a lunch room for the tax, because they do not want to sit together and break bread like a couple will. But, like, it's. You've really quickly know who you don't want to be around. And it was the same thing. Like, I never saw a service advisor come in and sit and eat lunch, hardly ever with a technician. Too many times. I mean, when I worked at the Nissan dealer, we would do that, but very quickly, it became, like, the one advisor that everybody liked, she left. The next one that kind of came in.

You could kind of see, like, the dynamic in the room shift, and it wasn't like, it was not welcoming. It was just like, okay, this person really isn't a fit here, right? So all of a sudden, it's like, the technicians. Because, let's be real, I'll say it. If that person just gave away a bunch of your labor in that morning, you don't want to sit across the table from them and eat. You'd rather reach across the table and, like, take their food or choke them or something. So smear the pile over their face. So, I mean, that's very telling. And I seen that online with different techs I've talked to and shop owners where they see them.

They're having lunch together once a week, you know, and it's like somebody catered something in. Or there's. The running joke is the pizza is the new inside joke in the industry, and the pizza party was. But I think it's very key. If you can get everybody to sit down and kind of, like, in a circle or relatively close. Like, yeah, if you got a guy and he grabs two slices and goes back over his toolbox, you know, that's that person. I mean, I can't say that he's a problem or she's a problem because I don't know. I'm not in that dynamic.

Right. But I see that a lot, and then I see the other ones, and it's like, man, I wish I had that. You know, it's. I'm jealous of places where they can sit together and they can. They can do it. I think it's. I think it's. If you're going to spend money on marketing or you're going to spend money, sometimes I think on just feeding your staff.

I think sometimes the feeding staff can, can be a better turnaround. You know what I mean?

Yeah, we've, we've had goals before, you know, hit, hit a certain number or arro for the weekend. And we're not, we're not having a pizza party. I mean, we're getting, you know, Fajitas or whatever catered in.

It's good stuff.

So we all strive to hit that in. And like you said, you have those texts that go out to their toolbox and we'll just stand there and eat. But the shop, I was out. We literally, I mean, we were still answering phones and everything, but we came together inside. Guys could come inside and cool down and we sat around and just B's. Yeah, we had that good culture in that shop.

That's key. When we talk about shop culture, is there red flags that you see? Because I used to always be worried about when people would look at my resume and they go, I must look like a red flag to them when they're hiring me because it's like, he's had ten jobs in seven years or five jobs in ten years or whatever. This technician doesn't stay around anywhere. Is there key markers you guys look at when you're looking at somebody to place them? Or is there things that kind of stand out that you kind of go, I wonder? Or do you kind of like, give me, give me some feedback on that? Because that's fascinating for me from the tech standpoint. Right.

Yeah. Cat, I don't know if you want to touch on it. I can't, too. I see it every day, so.

Yeah, you can, Brian, you go ahead. I'll follow on to your. I'll follow on to you.

It is like you said, it's the job, hoppy, having multiple jobs and, you know, we're not going to discredit somebody looking at their resume. Can they explain it, though? Right? It's not, oh, I didn't get along with the guy at the shop or they didn't have enough car count. We understand that's going to happen, but what did you do to increase your productivity? Did you do anything there? You know, can you explain it in a nutshell? Why did you have 20 jobs over the last six months?

Right.

Yeah, yeah, I would. I would say it is hard. And I can imagine being in the technician shoes. Like, there's money across the street, there is money down, you know, the next town over. And so, you know, I can very much appreciate that. That that's real, that's real money for families, that's real money for the community and that. So I don't ever discount somebody for making a choice like that for their family. Yeah, a couple of things I think that I would call out.

Number one, look at total compensation. Total compensation is really important. And I understand that hourly pay is, number one, how much cash are you taking home? It is for all of us, right? Number one, what cash am I taking home to pay my bills? So I think that's super important. But you do have to look at paid time off. When do you get that paid time off? How often do you get that paid time off? You know, does the shop close the week of, you know, for us, the 4 July for you guys, you know, Canada day, whatever that, you know. And are you paid for that? You know, what, what does the opportunity look like to grow? Or is there, and I'm not just talking about like, you know, can you go, you know, online in a portal and take a class on like real opportunity to grow, to do interesting jobs, to go maybe to a training, you know, is it you go away to a training once every two years, doesn't have to be every year, every six months. But is there investment in the growth of the team and is the business run fairly well? And I think again, you can ask some intelligent questions and things like that, but I would say, so just take into account those things before you gonna get itchy at the next dollar. The next dollar isn't necessarily the thing that's gonna solve your problem.

And then I'd say the other thing tying on to Brian is if you didn't get along with the owner and then you didn't get along with the owner, and then you didn't get along with the owner, and then you didn't get along with the owner. Like at some point you have to look at yourself and say, how am I part of this equation as well? I am not saying that I have gotten along with every boss. Believe me, I have left jobs because of bosses. I have also gone to jobs because of bosses. But I would say if there is a two pieces of information, you know, or two points of data is a line and three points of data is a trend. Like, start looking and making sure that you are doing all of the right things as well. Ask for feedback. If you get feedback and you don't like how you got the feedback, say that like, appreciate getting that feedback in front of the whole team.

Next time, if you think I'm doing something wrong, could you, like, don't maybe don't, you know, run out and quit on a Friday afternoon? Like, you know, those types of things. I think those are the things that we see as really red flags when you're trying to. When Brian saying, why, at some point we have to say, well, gosh, you know, it's been five years, so we got to think about that. So those are the other two points I said I'd put on top of what Brian said.

I'll tell you, lots of technicians do that. We chase the dollar, but we always had that saying. I know, I learned it way back when. Dollar 100 an hour, especially from, again, the flat rate is $100 an hour. Times 0 hour is still zero. And I see my guess that just was I had last week who his part two will drop on Tuesday. He left a job where he was at like 36 an hour hourly rate to go for 45 flat rate. And he was like, oh, I can't wait.

I'm going to do it. Did not work out for that young man. Right. So you got to always keep it, you know, compare apples to apples, not pineapple to bananas, because there's completely two different things. The, the other dynamic is, yeah, you have to own it. I I. When I sit down with an interview and people ask me, I'll be like, listen, I'm not always the easiest one to, to, um, coach, the easiest one to get along with. I'm a scorpio and I'm a twin.

So what makes it even worse is it's like, yeah, I always have a measuring. Sick of comparison, and I always know how one was treated. I expect to be treated exactly the same, no different. Right. Like you. So expectations in me are big. So I'll tell people flat out, I will challenge. Sometimes when you say to me what you're giving me as what you think is constructive criticism, I don't hear the first c, I just hear the criticism, right, and I'm going to challenge you.

I'm going to bring the third c in and go, hey, what about this? And I'm not saying people take that as insubordination. It's not insubordination. It's just the more we do this and the more we get exposed to different employers. We see things that work other places, right? And we bring it in. Like, there's lots of dealer techs that have been stayed within the brand move from that store to this store. They did things at this store this way and it worked really well. There was no waiters or, you know, there was a limit on waiter, blah, blah, blah. We can use that example.

And you come into some other place and they go, that's not going to work here. If you immediately discredit it. Just because it's like, well, I'm a manager and you're a technician. So, like, why? You know, the information goes this way. It doesn't go like that. If people come out with that attitude, the tech's not bringing you a complaint, they're bringing you, hey, did you know what goes on over there? Because the reality is, in lots of communities, we don't know what goes on in another shop, right? We sit in our little bubble. Lucas taught me that. You get in your bubble and it's an echo chamber and you think you're the only one facing the problem.

You're the only one doing everything right and it's still not working. Why is that? Must be broken. Well, it's not broken. You're just so closed off to how somebody else is doing it. And so I'll challenge when owners that are listening to this. When a technician comes to you and says, hey, we did something like this, this way, don't immediately go, well, if it really worked, you'd still be there. No, that's not what they're saying. They're just saying, we didn't do free diag and it worked really well.

Or, you know, we didn't have 200 waiters with no appointments and no, like, it really worked. You do stuff like that, just be open to the input. Because the wonderful thing about the Internet now is that as much as we want to keep different groups where it's like, okay, shop owners talk over here, technicians talk over here, everybody still knows what's going on in all places, right? I can. I think back to when Covid started. There was a dealership that had all their technicians on a guarantee. And this dealership, as soon as the COVID hit, they immediately took all the technicians guarantee away. Gone, just like that. And it made, pretty much within our industry anyway, made national news like this poor ladies business got drugged through the mud because it wasn't just in the fact that she.

How she did it or what she did, but how she did it. And, you know, the first person technician that kind of asked the question, she terminated him on the spot. Just like that. Done. Well, it hit a Facebook group. I was in a minute and it just exploded to where she had to, like, close down her Facebook account. Get out of the whole thing because it was like it was blowing up. So it wasn't to say that, like, they were a bunch of crybabies, but, like.

And again, Covid scared a lot of people. Right? Totally. I get it. But all of a sudden, I don't think she understood the power of what a whole lot of other people that were scared to death, technicians that were worried about it. When you do something, you put yourself out there, though, she was very prominent. When you put yourself out there, all of a sudden, look out because they're. It's on the Internet. You're not, you're not safe if you don't want to be safe.

Right? Like, it's, it's all in how you handle it. It was. I won't, I don't claim to be proud of it, but it showed me back then the power of what online can do in terms of uniting people into whatever you want to call it at the time of fixed enemy or whatever it was, unification. It was really cool to see. So I don't know what became of it, where they are now. I mean, that's just like anything else on the Internet. But it was, it was a powerful thing to see. It was really something.

So it changed. Covid changed the dynamic of how a lot of shops run.

Yeah, well, I would add, I guess, the. To, you know, going back to the constructive criticism and, you know, conflict and if you add a different c and you change it to curious if you're, if folks are just a little bit more curious about, you know, that reaction, instead of thinking it's like an insubordination, whatever the reaction is. And the woman's reaction is an example, as she had been curious and really asked a couple of questions about why he was frustrated and what he was scared of and all of those types of things. And same thing. If someone's giving you constructive criticism, they're intending it that way to be constructive and you're, you know, if you change that to curious, I think it changes the dynamic a little bit. Right. It changes that dynamic. And if you're asking why, instead of directing what or how, it just changes the dynamic a little bit.

And I think that it achieves what you're trying to achieve, which is, you know, this. We all have to work together. This is a people business. This is a relationship business. And if all we do is conflict and we aren't curious about the why underneath, whatever the thing is, the reaction, the people are scared of COVID They're changing my pay. Like all of that if we respond with curiosity first, I bet it solves a lot of those explosion problems or where somebody went, you know, viral on the Internet for the wrong reason and all that kind of stuff. So I think that it's interesting to just flip that just a little bit, and it might help some of those issues.

Brian, when you were a tech, what was it that really. What was your struggle with the management in place or whatever? Like, what really set you off? Can I ask?

Well, there was a. You know, honestly, I don't know of any, like, key things that really.

He's so easygoing. Like, he's a hard one to ask. If you asked me, I am like a firecracker. So if you asked me, I could tell you 27 things. But Brian's is like, he's so easy going.

I could. I could tell you the name of the customer and the color of the quit jobs over. I'm not kidding.

I can tell you.

Yeah, because it's like, it's. I'm. I'm so enwrapped up in whatever it was, and then when it. Again, it doesn't come down to pay, it comes down to value. Right. You didn't pay me the time I did the brake inspection, and you didn't pay me for the job because of some B's reason. Or, you know, I went out and fixed the car, or it's. I'm sorry.

It's not broken under warranty. That's exactly how the car is supposed to function. I hate it. You know. You don't like it? I don't like it. I drove 45 minutes. I told you. I confirmed it.

Here's three bulletins that show you don't fix it, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they don't pay. I can tell you those customers names and why I quit because they didn't pay me. Right. So for you to be so easy going and just go like. So, what was the hardest dynamic, then, in the shop for you?

I think the other techs that the. We're not all the same, right? We all have our strengths and weaknesses, getting along with everybody because, I mean, I. Let's face it, we're there at the shop more than we're at home most of the time. So. Seven days a week, back in the day. Right?

Yeah.

But, yeah, it's just the personality conflicts, I think, would be, you know, finding the guys that you work well with, helping each other, that's a big thing, too.

So, did you run into that obstacle? Is that they didn't want it to, like, I've been. I've been accused of that, like, locking out, like, gatekeeping information, you know, and I've made that. People have heard that episode where I talked about that in length about how I had to donate so much to get that knowledge that I wasn't going to just share it with anybody. You know what I mean? And it's an unpopular opinion in here, but I mean, like, if I see a tech that's doing it, I don't fault him for it. You know what I mean? Like, it. It depends on the dynamic that the shop is in as crazy it is if it goes back to a heavy incentivized and he's got that nugget, or let's be real, let's talk about the other thing. If he's got that tool that makes that job easy, he's the only one with a tool. I just, like, if I'm the only one that's got a scan tool in this shop that will read other makes and models, I want all those other makes and models.

So I was detected, always had, like, a ton of, I would buy the tool that I needed. I would buy the scan tool that I needed. So I was always the. It wasn't like I just said, nah, go take off. I'm not going to lend it to you. But it was very begrudgingly sometimes that I had to do that where it's like, because you would get the advisor that would come along and just needle you down and be like, can't you just lend them the tools so we can get this car done? Well, can't we just, like, book the car in so that, like, I do them all because I'm the one with the tool anyway, right? Or why don't you buy the tool so that we can all share in the wealth? You know, that was. So when I see that dynamic of the information gatekeeping, there's the second side to that story or that argument that it's not always talked about. And, you know, it's one of those things where I look at, like, other people and.

And I was always somebody that, in my business, in my industry, I was going to invest in myself. I was going to learn how it worked. I was going to take the training after hours that I could get. I was going to buy the tool to make the job faster, because that's how you make money. You turn hours, you fix cars, that's how you make money. And when I see other people that didn't want to invest at the time, it was like, oh, you know, piss on that guy. Like, I mean, why he won't. Now as I age, and I realize everybody's got different things going on.

Sometimes they just can't afford to. Now, some people just flat out don't want to. I've worked with lots of techs. They want to make do with $1,000 worth of tools for their whole career. And that's it. The younger generation coming in, it's like, I want a brand new car at 22 years old, making a car payment. I don't want to be making a car payment equivalent into a toolbox every month, or tools. And I just, like, because, like, I, 20 years ago, that was a dead end.

That was an obstacle in your, in your career if you had that attitude today. I love that we see so many shop owners talking about, well, I'm going to buy a tool set for my young hires. Like, I think that's fantastic. And it goes back to like you're saying, you know, when I see people that have worked for a shop that had that and they still quit, I'm like, are you nuts? Like, do you not realize that now you need to go and spend $6,000 on tools.

Yeah.

To go work for this employer because it was provided for at the last place.

I think we don't total compensation.

Right.

It's a bigger picture. It's just one of those things you gotta ask. And I agree. I think there are things you can negotiate and talk about, too, whether it's a tool allowance, whether it's a once a year purchase, whether, you know, all of those types of things. Like, again, I think there's a lot of power in the hands of the technicians to be asking for those things as benefits of their job or as, I mean, I really tools, like, technically, and, you know, both literally and figuratively, the tools to do their jobs. So I think that there's a lot of negotiating power. I'm not saying everyone should go out tomorrow and go ask for, you know, the $10,000 thing, but I do think it is important. I think that the, you know, thinking about it more holistically rather than, again, the dollar per hour, but rather am I being empowered to make the most dollars possible when it's all said and done? I think that's a really good point.

I do understand the, like, hey, I put in the blood, sweat and tears on this thing. So I don't know that, that I want to, like, come readily off it. I totally understand that. I think that's a, that would be hard. That would be, like, somebody saying to me, I live in finance and HR and things like that. Like, hey, can I just, like, borrow your computer? Like, yeah, I don't think you can. Like, there's a lot of stuff on that that's pretty important. So I would have a hard time with that also.

So I think, you know, if people aren't going to invest early in their career, there are also tons of ways to do it. Brian can, like, speak to this better than I can. Like, there are giveaways and sponsorships and schools and, like. Like, go find a place where you can get a free toolbox. Right. Like, I feel like if you. If you're willing to show some interest in the. And some things like that, there are lots of opportunities, like, go sign up for that raffle or that, you know, mailing list or whatever, and you never know.

So, yeah, a lot of your parts vendors are doing, you know. Yes. Buy 30 brake pads, you get a Milwaukee tool for free. You know, going back to the apprentice thing. Have those. A lot of your. I'll plug it. Nap auto parts.

They have an apprentice program for their auto care centers. And it's great. You know, it's. It's a $2,000 toolbox full of tools.

Yep.

So. And again, don't limit yourself on looking at that dollar, chasing the dollar.

Don't forget about you to make the dollars. We want you to make all the dollars. We will support you and trying to make all the dollars. But Brian's point.

Yeah. Just quality of life, too. I mean. Right? So you're gonna go across the street, work 80 hours a week. You only turn 40 for $10. More like to your point earlier, whereas across the street, where you were, you've got a consistent paycheck, you've got cars coming in, you're working four or five days a week. So just always keep that in mind.

Yeah, I. And, you know, when I was at. So my longest tenure at the dealer was probably my best tenure at any dealer for. No. No arguments about it. It was the best way that I was compensated. Opportunity. The whole thing, it was just.

It was of, you know, the finely oiled machines that most dealerships can be. It was the best in terms of finely oiled machine we had. The culture was really good. Like, it's the only dealer I've ever worked at. Only workplace I've ever worked at that ten years later, we're still. We still talk. You know what I mean? We still. So.

And we used to say at the time, it's like we're all like pows in the same camp, you know, like, I mean, we're. But I think at the time and going back now, we all look at it and we're like, those were good times. It felt terrible at the time. Like, it really did. Like it was the stress and the, you know, this new manager is going to suck. And your parts person that you just hired, you know, Dean, he's terrible. Like, you need to get rid of that guy. Now.

We look back and we go, oh, my God. Like, we were so fortunate to be where we were. And I think it stands out because some of us stayed there a really long time. Now there's only one of us left that is still at that dealer and he's been there 17 years and he's going to be a lifer. There's just no question about it. It's in his personality and he's comfortable and he's being treated well and that's good for him. We all moved on, but we took some really key lessons from there, good and bad, that, like, well, for instance, what was my parts manager? He's now a fixed operation, fixed up manager for several dealers in one of the largest dealer groups in my province. Like, he has really worked up.

And when you. When you go back to, why did he hit that height? Because he always had the personality, even when he was just the manager of one department in a dealer, that it was like you could go to him with any problem. When he said he would do his best to rectify it, he did, he did. He genuinely brought the effort. He genuinely brought the care. I mean, he was an outstanding manager then. And it's just. It's great to see him hit that level.

Technicians I've seen, it's a different thing. Like, we have a different trajectory in this industry. And sometimes it's like because the technology moves so fast and then I know that I only have a window where my body can really, really produce. And then it's like I'm not going to be able to hump those heavy line work jobs that I used to do. I can't yank a transmission in 45 minutes, that kind of stuff. So I have to develop my brain so that it's like I become that guy that can solve the complex problem. That's tough. Do you guys, when you're placing and Kat, I know you got to go, but we can.

Brian and I can probably continue on with this. When you've got people, do you look at their certain ages and experience levels as to they would be a better fit for this shop versus that shop.

Yeah. So, you know, we operate currently in the US. I know Canada's got a lot of, like, hr types of laws. So we, you know, we follow all of the appropriate laws and all of that from a, you know, age discrimination and things like that. What I would say we consider is we have conversations about why people are looking. Right. And the conversations about why people are looking when the door gets cracked open to, you know, I'm tired. I'm in my mid fifties.

I, you know, I've been doing this for 30 years. And then we. The doors open for us to have a little bit more conversation about, okay, well, where would you like, what would look like good look like to you? That type of thing. So I think those are the key points that, you know, it's important that we are having relationship conversations with the candidates and asking the why. And it's okay to say, like, man, I've been doing this for 30 years. My body's tired. If we know that, then we can match with a shop. And we have lots of shops that they would love to have an experienced person who can do some diag, some remote stuff, some teaching.

There's lots of opportunity to continue your career without necessarily having to be the guy with the wrench under the car in the cardinal. Brian and I know the recruiting team have a lot of those conversations. We do want to be as honest and clear as possible about culture and all of that. And, you know, we placed an awesome technician in a shop that the shop was uber competitive, had, you know, a little bit of a younger crew, lots of KPI's and metrics and targets and, you know, the technician, I think, would have gone come around, but, like, he just wasn't where he wanted to be at that point in his career. So we helped, you know, find a different situation. So. But, yeah, I think we consider as much as we can consider that makes sense. And again, trying to match culture and fit on the job as well.

I mean, we do offer some stretch candidates. We call our shops and say, like, hey, you know, I don't know. This guy's coming from doing a lot of similar type jobs. He'd probably be a stretch. But I think you got to ask a little bit about his ability to learn or his desire to, you know, that kind of thing. So we coach both sides of, like, let's pull what's really under this out and make sure that we feel good about the match, so.

Right. Are you going to Asta Kat?

Is that Raleigh?

That's Raleigh.

I will likely run up there. I'm going to like preview. That's Lisa's birthday weekend so she will definitely be there. So if anybody runs into lisa, it's her birthday weekend. So I may run up there because it's just a few hours away from me.

And then did you say you're going to Apex?

I am not going to be at apex this year. Last year I went to Sema and swung through Apex, but I'm going to hold down the Ford at home while all the customer facing folks go and chat with you guys about all the cool things.

I going to put a pin in the conversation right there on the jaded mechanic with Kat and Brian from promotive. Really interesting stuff. Pretty crazy what promotive can do for you as a technician looking for a job. Next week, Kat steps aside and Brian and Jeff continue their conversation about the industry and all the things the promotive can do for repair shops. That's next week on Jada Mechanic. Hope you can listen. Hey, if you could do me a favor real quick and like comment on and share this episode, I'd really appreciate it. And please, most importantly, set the podcast to automatically download every Tuesday morning.

As always, I'd like to thank our amazing guests for their perspectives and expertise and I hope that you'll please join us again next week on this journey of change. Thank you to my partners in the Asaw group and to the changing the industry podcast. Remember what I always say, in this industry, you get what you pay for. Here's hoping everyone finds their missing ten millimeter and we'll see you all again next time.

Evaluating and Empowering Technicians in the Hiring Process with Brian and Kat from Promotive

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