GM's PHEV Insanity, Acura's In A Pickle, Volvo's 400 Mile EV, Tesla Cancels Autopilot

Welcome to another episode of the auto buyers guide podcast. Sorry. It's been a few days since we were last here because Travis has been traveling internationally and so have I we will talk about that in a moment, but we're going to be talking

general motors and their plug in hybrid strategy and their odd commentary on that Polestar for Chevy bolt

Accurus sales conundrum in the United States and why it's only going to get worse for a short while Honda's prelude Volvo's ex 60 the new

400 mile EV fast charging thing in America and Mercedes fourth quarter end of year numbers and why

Doesn't look good for affordable cars

Before we dive into our main topics today, let's cover a bit of the news that has happened since we were last together because it has been

Just a little bit since you were in Europe. I was in Europe, you know, I have a seven month old. So things are a little upside down. Yep

Yep, I've got a cat, you know, same thing. Yeah, you know, sort of same sort of thing. I mean, the cat is a lot quieter though. And it's funny because my daughter has all of a sudden realized that the cat is a thing and she was

Grab that cat so bad. And the cat has figured out exactly how far like to the millimeter exactly how far she needs to be to keep the grabby hands away

Well, you want to stay close enough to the action, but obviously, yeah, yeah, and you got to tease a little bit, which I think is fantastic because it entertains her to no end. Both of them. I think

It's a little bit of year and end of quarter sales numbers, but, you know, I am surprised Mercedes is being really cagey in not giving us exact sales totals for each individual model they're grouping a lot of things together which is interesting, but

We know the big takeaways here which I think go with what we were talking about last time which was this rise in ultra luxury and luxury sales.

Mercedes total numbers in North America were down 10% but the luxury car sides actually up. It turns out the van side was the part that went down. But the key thing is AMG sales and we all know how expensive those models can get up 12%

I water and I water, I water the extensive AMG is up 12% G class up 26%. And oh my God, those things are expensive.

That is, that's, that's a stupid, that's a stupid rise. That's an insane number.

AMG is best year ever. The AMG sold 145,000 vehicles globally last year. That's almost as big as all of Acura.

Yeah, that's with a transaction price that Honda could only dream of.

I don't like that number. Let's move on to the next.

Here's another one. One third of S classes were my box.

Sort of checks out.

But again, yeah, yeah, it's like we've already got the the quarter million dollar S class and then a third of them were whatever bonkoz nutsy number you can get.

Yeah, yeah, the only limitation is your dream.

So the bottom line there is big cars with big price tags are definitely big business. That's a lot of bigs there.

But you know what's not so big, Acura's sales numbers.

Did you see our post on Facebook about this because I was scratching my head. I had somehow forgotten that the RDX is sailing off into the sunset.

Yeah, I mean, so it's not just the sales numbers that are dwindling, but so are their models, at least for the moment.

If you were going to do a massive shakeup and a retooling and a reimagining of something pulling the RDX after the ADX is introduced is pivotal, right?

Because then you would just have this huge gap in a segment that is highly competitive.

Lots of volume comes out of there.

But that's a big one.

Yeah. And for everybody that doesn't know out there, so basically Acura's sales are predominantly MDX.

That's the biggest model in their lineup sales wise.

RDX is a close second to about a full quarter of every Acura sold is an RDX.

TLX is about 6%, ZDX is about 9%.

So about 9% of all Acura sold in 2025 were made by General Motors, but they stuck a fork in that one.

That's done. TLX is done.

RDX is done, but not because the market didn't want it, but because apparently there's a supplier issue for some critical component and or components Acura will not tell us exactly what they are.

But I am super curious about this.

This is a big bummer for Acura and their dealer network, because whatever this thing or these things are, it's not easily replaceable and Acura says that they're going to actually have to stop building RDX is for wait for it.

Almost two years.

Is this something that is exclusive to the RDX or do you think it's a, you know, one of the shared shared shared component within the Acura lineup?

And they're saying, Hey, I guess, you know, maybe the RDX is close to a revamp.

And they said, let's we're going to cut it here because ADX isn't getting newer, right?

And the MDX is where it's at.

Obviously you cannot afford to lose MDX.

So yeah, that sort of feels like hands tied.

What do you do?

Yeah, they're not clear again on what exactly it is, but if I were to guess, I would assume it would be some sort of, you know, computer circuit problem, like maybe part of the body control module in the vehicle, which is unique to the RDX.

It could be infotainment related, although I would have assumed if it was infotainment related, they could have grafted MDX is whatever in there.

That's the part that I am surprised by is that, that they didn't try some sort of temporary bandaid for just two years of sales because I like the RDX.

I honestly thought it could get away with another three year cycle by giving it a mild refresh.

The infotainment from MDX, a little bit of a tweaky tweak to the style, maybe a new dashboard, call it good, you know, maybe give it a hybrid system at some point later.

But instead they're going to have to pause all sales for almost two calendar years.

And if we do the math, if we delete those models from their 2025 sales, this would be the worst sales year in accurate history since 1986, since they started.

Like I said, that ADX is going to be absolutely pivotal to the brand for the moment.

You know, I'm not saying they can't have a really bad sales year and still survive.

And if you have a clear here's why and here's the fix.

And some of it, let's just say some of it's out of their hands, at least to some extent.

But that's, that's a tough position to be in.

You don't want that for your brand, especially your flagship brand.

You don't want to be taking products away from there.

Obviously, you're not going to sacrifice, let's say, you know, if you can pull something out of a CRB and drop it in RDX, you don't, you can't really afford to cannibalize CRB sales either.

But if you can pull a few and try and make that work, then it's probably worth doing.

I just don't see ADX satisfying RDX shoppers.

I see some maybe going up to MDX, but they might think it's too big.

We'll see how it goes.

I think also, this is a bit of a mis-trejectory thing, but remember, we have RSX coming up soon, their electric model.

That's not really going to move the needle a lot, even if it sells as well as ZDX.

You know, we're talking not very many units.

And that's still a big unknown.

And MDX has an awkward trajectory.

So this is kind of a pivotal moment.

We'll see where Acura goes here in the next two years, but MDX is not having good trajectory.

They were up a little bit by the numbers over last year, previous year, 2024, I should say.

But their general trajectory has been downward for the last 11 years.

And what did surprise me is we now have complete numbers for the year.

Lexus TX just absolutely blew past Acura.

I, to be honest, am shocked how well TX is selling for Lexus.

It is now the best selling luxury through row SUV in the United States.

Definitely hands down beating MDX.

I had assumed actually more people would be willing to have the tighter backseat for the better driving dynamics in the MDX.

I also think the MDX is just prettier inside and out than the TXT.

A little basic.

But the more concerning thing I think is that Volvo undersold MDX with the XC90, the significantly more expensive XC90, I should say, in average configurations.

By only about a thousand units.

And if you logically put together EX90 and EX90, or XC90 and EX90 together, that combo outsold MDX and those two vehicles are very closely related.

And of course, globally, MDX undersells XC90 by quite a lot because Acura doesn't sell models in every market that they sell Hondas in.

Yeah.

I'm not going to say they're in big, big trouble, but they don't have, I mean, you and I agree.

If we needed a mid-sized third row vehicle, we're not looking at a TDX, we'd go get an MDX.

It's going to fit us.

But is the market saying, oh yeah, we really prioritize driving dynamics?

Maybe, you know, I don't mean to put it out there in a negative way, but maybe Acura needs a boat.

Maybe they need just a big people mover that isn't particularly excited to drive.

So how would it, what would be its catch?

Well, it'd have to look good.

It'd have to have some level of performance to it, or certainly a hybrid option.

That's the key, I think, to be honest, because Lexus TX, they're selling a lot of hybrid TXs.

And when we look at Volvo sales, it's hybrid there too.

Because depending on the market we're talking about, Volvo sells about half or more than half of all XC90s as plug-in hybrids, depending on where we're talking.

In California, their largest market in the US, XC90 was generally running about half plug-in hybrid models.

And that's something that Acura just doesn't have anymore.

And it's always struck me as odd because the MDX used to have a hybrid and actually quite liked it.

That leads me actually to my next point here, which is, should that Honda Prelude you just drove, should it have been an Acura?

It's a little bit close.

And there's already this thought around something like the Integra, which is, is the Integra different enough?

Or should there be an SI anymore?

Should they just make it the Acura Integra?

Should it be an Integra hybrid?

Because there's so many of these underpinnings already exist between the Civic and the Type R and the Integra and the Type S, right?

There's a lot of these commonalities.

I don't know if that's really the move and if they are going to do it.

I would love to see an Acura Integra, you know, two-door that's built out of the Prelude.

I think they could do that where the Prelude isn't exactly a Civic Coupe, right?

It's close enough.

So there's an, I think there's opportunity to do two different models there.

I just don't know what exactly you do to differentiate them.

I can tell you, there are some, there are some pieces missing in the Prelude, things like powered seats, things like adjustable lumbar support.

There are, there are these little things, a moonroof, right?

There's a number of these things on an already expensive model.

If we go back in the way back time, that RSX, you know, they, because they call, they're calling the new EV and RSX.

If we go back to the actual RSX once upon a time, it didn't have those things as I recall.

So in my brain, Prelude would have made more sense as RSX in, in so many ways.

They're not going to build a lot of them because they don't think many people are going to buy them.

They're only projecting about 4,000 units of sales.

And the last SI Coupe, they sold about 3850, something like that.

So for everybody out there that's like, why are yours?

Why is Prelude so limited?

Well, the last time Honda sold a powerful Coupe with, well, air quotes, powerful 200 horsepower Coupe with a manual, they sold less than 4,000.

So there's your number.

But so I don't think there's enough there, there to support RSX and Prelude.

I think it should just have all been Acura-ified so they could have given it, you know, maybe they could have given it power seats.

Maybe.

So I'm a little bit torn there.

I think if the Prelude does any sort of well, right, if they sell the 4,000 units at a whole lot of issue and there seems to be more demand, I think you could do a dual branded option.

So you have the Acura, call it the Integra Coupe or whatever.

We know something like that because the RSX name is taken.

I think adopting the RSX badge would have been great, but already taken, so not available.

But I don't know if it should have exclusively been an Acura.

That's an interesting question.

I mean, it's like when the NSX came over here, right, it was a Honda and now it's an Acura here in the US.

Yes, the Prelude could have been Prelude globally and over here we call it the Acura RSX, something like that.

So how was the rest of the Prelude since you just got back from driving it?

I did.

And all of the press leading up to it was fairly predictable, right?

This is too expensive.

This is underpowered.

And then the larger question is what is this?

I think it was fantastic.

And I don't mean to go bigger than it is.

I don't want to speak hyperbole here, but what else can you get that'll get you over 40 miles per gallon and be genuinely fun to drive and interesting to look at?

And the adaptive suspension that exists in this model as it's lined up is impactful.

If you want to put it in sport mode, when you click it over, it feels like you have made a change.

There are some vehicles, you click it in sport and you go, what's the difference between normal?

In this case, it's not just the throttle mapping, but the suspension tightens up and delivers a totally different experience.

So is it a little bit, is it too expensive?

Yes, but it's a little bit too expensive for me.

And the separation between it and the standard Civic Hybrid, I think is worthwhile, but maybe a little bit too much.

But when I pay for it, I think I would.

How fast or slow was it?

Because a lot of us had hoped, not expected, mind you, for those that are seeking clarification.

We had hoped that it would be lighter than a Civic Hybrid, substantially lighter.

But it is not.

So what were we seeing there?

So the testing we got was different even than some of the other journalists got and that happens.

We got 7.3 seconds, fairly repeatedly.

We were at some elevation, but I don't think elevation hits this quite the same way because the power is coming from electric motors, even though it's electricity is generated by.

So I don't think that was it.

There are a couple of different shift modes.

The big thing, the big thing making its debut here is the sport plus shift function.

And that made it 1.3 seconds slower in the 1-1 run we were able to do.

And you and I both knew that would happen.

But I do think if you're driving, you know, the mountain switchbacks, which they had a great road for us to drive, go ahead and put it in that mode because you're not doing zero to 60 runs.

And it really does feel a lot more engaging.

It's not quite as good as the Ionic 5N.

That's okay. It's not, it doesn't feel totally gimmicky.

It is a little bit weird to hear the engine revving up, but then knowing it has nothing to do really with how you're driving.

But if you're looking for, hey, I want this fun engagement, go for it.

I just would not leave it in sport plus shift often.

It'd be like, hey, I'm putting in sport mode, I'm putting in sport plus shift, then I would do it.

I would turn it off the second I was done with my spirit of driving because it's just slower and less efficient and a little bit silly.

But it does have that, it doesn't have that duality to it.

Yeah. I am, I have to admit, I am sad that Honda did not change the drivetrain at all.

Honda is a very conservative engineering company.

So for folks out there that don't know, the Prelude uses exactly the same two-motor hybrid system that every other hybrid Honda in America uses.

It's also widely used outside of North America and a large number of models globally.

But well, once upon a time, they had different versions of this particular hybrid system.

Even in the U.S., we had the Insight, we had the Civic, you know, we had the Clarity, the Accord Hybrid.

We had a bunch of different models, different engines and motors and mixed and matched and whatever.

They've really consolidated the numbers here and the game with the Prelude was to try and create a very low volume product.

I mean, 4,000 units versus, you know, a quarter million CRVs a year.

So you can see the scale and problem with development here.

So it's essentially used as many components as possible that are common.

That said, I am a little bit sad that they didn't take this opportunity to say, you know, whip up an ADX hybrid for the Acura brand that could have been 250 horsepower.

Just, you know, a 25% power bump, I think would have been very impactful here.

But the reason that they didn't do this logically is they would have had to have redesigned either the gasoline engine side or, more logically, I think they would have had to have redesigned the traction motor and the battery.

Because they could have used the same generator and the same engine and really the same transmission case, most likely.

But a higher power density battery that had better power dissipation characteristics and was just larger capacity coupled with a 250 horsepower electric motor, I think would have made all the difference.

And it would have really separated this from that. Hey, it's just a Civic Coupe.

I think there is, again, you know, get a bunch of journalists together talking about an old nameplate, some fun stuff comes up.

It was never a performance car.

No, it was a more interesting to drive daily driver.

And it always, my take on it is that it always brought forward new technology.

It was a tech forward daily driver.

So four wheel steering and, you know, the super handling, all, you know, front wheel drive system, those sorts of systems are of the tech forward.

So now the tech forward in this case is the hybrid system and what does hybrid performance kind of look like?

I think what's missing here really is a plug-in option.

And it doesn't need to be a big plug-in battery.

You're going to have to sacrifice space, but there already is sacrifice space.

You know, there's not nearly as much cargo volume as you get in the regular Civic.

So make it a little bit less.

You know, raise that floor a little bit.

I could fit my bags in there as I needed to.

If you could get, even if you made it a 10 or 15 mile plug-in range, not big, not significant, the smaller the battery is, you kind of pancake into a spot.

That way you can push more power.

You can also boost your efficiency a little bit.

And it's, and because it's such a small volume model, you can do something a little bit weird because it's a parts bin car, but then use it as sort of a testing ground.

That's my thought.

I know it's not easy to just drop in, but if you can get 10 or 15 miles out of it, that's Honda saying, okay, what does the market do?

What does the market do to this?

Is this extra performance worth the weight?

Just, you know, the weight added to it, but, you know, zero to 60 times, just good.

That's the one thing I think would really be missing here.

Yeah. And they could have used the battery from the CRV plug-in hybrid because one does technically exist in California, the CRV hydrogen plug-in hybrid.

So there could have been some.

The clarity is not that old.

They could have cut that battery in half and swapped it in there of some sort.

Yeah. I think the clarity is too old.

LFP technology especially has just moved so far beyond where lithium-ion batteries were at that time that, you know, a cheap and cheerful LFP battery probably would have been the way to go.

It could have packaged quite nicely in there, especially since plug-in hybrids would have reduced cooling demands.

This does take me long to our other news story here, which somehow really stuck in my craw this last week.

I have a good friend that works for Inside EVs.

And Inside EVs in a number of places took something that Mary Barra from General Motors, their CEO, said and just totally ran with it in ways that don't make a lot of sense and that didn't read between the lines.

And again, I am actually good friends with some of the people here at Inside EVs.

I'm not going to call it anybody by name, but, and this is a quote here.

What we also know today with plug-in hybrids is that most people don't plug them in.

So that's why we're trying to be very thoughtful about what we do from a hybrid and plug-in hybrid perspective.

End quote there.

This caused a lot of EV publications to, you know, trot out the old same tired lines that plug-in hybrids never get plugged in.

But I have a problem with this and I don't know if you do too, but the problem I have with this is a few things.

The first thing is it goes against General Motors own public statements and their data in the past on Volt and Cadillac ELR.

For the record, those are the only plug-in hybrids General Motors has had in any sort of recent memory.

So it's not like they've dabbled.

And they were early to the game on that.

They were early to the game.

They sold incredibly well for what they were.

They beat everybody to that plug-in hybrid party in the US.

Owners loved them.

And according to GM's own data, the vast majority, and I mean like almost 90% in some subgroups there were driving almost exclusively in electricity to the point where a lot of EV proponents at the time said plug-in hybrids don't make sense because everybody always plugs them in just by an electric car.

Why are you wasting the gasoline engine?

And now this has shifted to the opposite.

So I see a lot of this upset about plug-in hybrids from the true believers that think they're this waste of money.

And the logic they point to are these European tests and surveys that we've seen and talked about before and them conflating that with America's realities.

The reality that in Europe, there are massive tax subsidies and people have company cars there.

In a lot of countries in Europe, most notably Germany, the majority of new cars are company cars, not privately owned vehicles.

They're being provided to you by your employer who gets tax benefits for choosing a plug-in hybrid.

You didn't get to choose it.

So you didn't say, I want one and I have somewhere to plug it in.

They said, here's one.

I don't care whether you can or want to plug it in.

It also contradicts the only large scale survey set that we have in the United States on plug-in hybrid behavior done by surveyed by JD Power because manufacturers won't release all this data.

That indicates that plug-in hybrid drivers plug in their vehicle five and a half days a week.

So basically all the week, all the week days and maybe a little bit on the weekend.

Lack of data is not data.

And that is where all these inside EVs stories and other stories about plug-in hybrids go.

Lack of data is not data.

Just because car companies aren't talking about this percentage of driving on whatever doesn't mean it's not happening because the only data points we have in the US indicate that our market is very different than Europe.

Again, company cars over there.

You don't choose what you drive.

Your employer did.

Here, company cars are less than a fraction of 1%.

So you're buying your car.

You're choosing your car as a car owner.

And also, I find the conspiracy theory angle a little bit weird.

Why is it that there's a conspiracy behind plug-in hybrid charging habits?

And those same people are not demanding that Chevy release the Corvette files.

You know, how many times is a Corvette driven on a track?

That's what I want to know.

How many times is a Tesla driven to a yoga studio?

Why do we not have this information?

Is it, could it be instead that General Motors was left flat footed because they bet all their money on electrification, full electrification and the Altium platform.

And then they realized that Toyota is eating their hybrid pie because they're selling half their lineup as hybrids and a whole slew of decent plug-in hybrids as well.

And GM's like, uh-oh, we're a little left behind.

And lastly, Mary says plug-in hybrids are coming.

So if hybrids and plug-in hybrids are coming and you're a true believer that they never get plugged in, holy shit, what's happening?

Why would you bother?

Because it doesn't matter and it's an inconvenience to the people and it adds cost that nobody's going to benefit from.

Or perhaps is Mary a good CEO and good at spin and spinning stuff to the shareholders that she needs to say as the CEO?

I would venture to guess it's on the CEO capability scale there because you have to shift these things around.

And we've talked about it before.

Toyota, when they did not have a competitive or interesting EV, went EVs are not the future.

Hybrids are the future.

Oh, did we just invest a ton of money in hybrid technology and we're the world leader and we're going to be the world leader beyond?

Yes. So were we talking about hybrids?

Totally. And then when an EV comes out of the go, you should look at our EVs. They're very good.

Well, then why do you have them if hybrids are the future?

And I don't blame them necessarily, but it's a good point.

We see these headlines all the time.

People don't plug in their plug-in hybrids.

But why do you have a plug-in hybrid if you don't plug it in?

That doesn't make sense.

It's not just that you picked your car, you paid the money for your car, you paid the extra for the plug-in hybrid.

Why would you not get the advantages of it, which are not just like power in a lot of cases.

And I have the answer for you, because if you ask my friends at Inside EVs, they will then trot out the line that the consumer is uninformed.

And that kind of offends me a tiny bit in a way too, because this is then implying that all car buyers are stupid.

Okay, there are unquestionably some ill-informed new car buyers, but I have troubles believing that the majority of people on a dealer lot, making one of the most expensive purchases in their life, doesn't at least casually ask,

Hey, this thing's got a plug. How does that work?

I mean, it takes this willing leap from one thing to the absurd or at least to the island of completely unproven for that to connect.

I do think there are going to be differences in segments, right?

So for example, a Toyota Prius plug-in owner is I'm going to put good money on it, plug in that car in, because that's somebody who seems to be focused on efficiency and saving a buck.

And that's something that that is very good at.

The Jeep 4xE customer may be less rushed to go plug that vehicle in.

I put money on that too.

That's a tricky one because Jeep did say, and they're one of the few companies that has publicly said how often their vehicles are charged.

And they also mirrored what JD Power was saying is that the average Jeep 4xE owner plugged in approximately daily.

And again, we have that customer survey data there.

And I know people will say, but that's not proof because customers might say one thing on the survey and do something different.

For sure.

But again, the absence of data is not data.

And that is the implication that we get there.

Now, I will say that the later sales with 4xE, where in California, it was hard to find a non 4xE ranger.

I'm willing to say that some group of that customer set is not plugging it in.

Totally also willing to say that some of these AMG plug-in hybrids with one mile of range.

I would never plug that in if I had one either.

Six miles ago, why bother?

Right.

And actually, I think my memory is bad here, but one of the C63 is literally one mile of EV range, I think, is its EPA rating.

So, you know, yeah, nobody's going to plug that puppy in.

But your average mid-level here, your RAV4 plug-in hybrids with over 40 miles of range, I'm pretty darn sure those are getting plugged in on a regular basis.

Some portion of that buyer, yes, is attracted to the 300 horsepower.

And that's where I would say that the difference is probably going to split.

The highest rate, the highest rate of plug-in, probably that CRB hydrogen plug-in.

Probably.

That decade old Chevy Volt is probably getting plugged in all the time still too.

I would bet that the more powerful the plug-in hybrid and the more power and performance focus that plug-in hybrid is, the less often it's going to get plugged in.

So, you know, your Kia's, your Hyundai's, I'm betting those are plugged in all the time because the extra power just compensates for the added weight.

They're not a performance plug-in.

You know, your RAV4's, it's definitely a little bit more of a performance plug-in.

Your Volvo's with 455 horsepower, probably still more.

And then we get up to the AMG's with bonkers horsepower numbers and the M5, no one's plug-in in those.

Although the M5 actually did do really well in EV mode.

And you could, with those, the nice thing with those is you can just plug them in on a 110, just trickle-charge it.

You don't have to go buy this thing, although again, those folks are not worried about the money and they are probably more likely to go, oh, I bought my AMG.

I want my AMG wall-mounted unit, which I don't blame them for that.

No, it puts an interesting point.

There was one more piece of interesting EV news.

And, you know, we try not to nail on Tesla all the time because there's always Tesla something.

But did you hear that we're changing up some of the standard features and no longer will auto-steer be part of the included functions with your Tesla?

And I think the writing was on the wall because the base model had already excluded it.

Then you would get it in some of the other trims and now it's dead across the line.

And if you are watching this episode after the middle of February, sorry to tell you, but you can no longer purchase full self-driving.

It is going subscription only.

So starting at $99 a month and ending God knows where, because Elon has already said pricing will go up over time.

That you want those extra features, including the lane-centering, which that part did surprise me.

Since you can get lane-centering standard on a Toyota Corolla, I think it makes sense, though, on a business case, that Toyota needs to push people to these subscription services.

How long do you think your lane-centering is going to work?

So I, and I'm not, again, I try not to be a person hyperbole.

If I lose a function on my vehicle, I am pursuing every legal course of action I can.

Because I bought the product as is, as was advertised.

And to remove a function that I paid for, I'm going to have a serious problem.

I didn't have any.

Oh, you didn't have any? Okay.

Yeah, yeah. So, and I hear you there.

But the functionality, at least in theory, the functionality didn't go away because they said, we're not using this, but you still will get notification, you know, dings and alerts when you get too close to something.

But they're doing it in a different fashion.

I would argue that the functionality is still left because it's not as good.

I'm with you.

I hear you.

Yeah, but if I bought a car, and for me, a true genuine, like one of the reasons is because I put so many miles on my vehicle, I'm close to 20,000 miles a year just on my personal car.

And so much of that is highway.

And so much of that is the ease of, you know, the sit back and shoulders down instead of all right here, you know, hands down instead of hands up.

That is one of the reasons I bought that car.

And if you took that away, I would have a serious problem with it.

And yeah, and I don't know if they can afford to do that because there is going to be an uproar and they have sold a lot of vehicles with this function.

But here's the key.

What Tesla can do, what they do and can do will do is if I traded my vehicle into Tesla, I guarantee the auto steer function would disappear because they can do that.

Yeah, they can.

And that's the one thing they one of the things they haven't said is will will Tesla resold vehicles will they lose the feature?

That's an open question.

And I would put very good money on if I sold it to Tesla because I'm buying a new Tesla or Tesla buys it at auction or something.

If Tesla is reselling one of these vehicles, that function will disappear because the whole point of this is to push people towards subscriptions.

And especially on the used vehicle where they're already not making any money on them besides some servicing.

I don't really think that makes any money for them.

You know, it's not a traditional service schedule.

Then they're a hundred percent going to push the subscription.

But what if, and I don't know what it looks like at the moment, but back when I worked at Tesla, if someone was trying to get access to the Tesla app, they had to come to Tesla and get their car registered.

I sell it to you.

You have to go to Tesla and say, this is my new car.

I want access to the app.

So they do still touch that car in a way that no other manufacturer really does.

But I, but I can't imagine it.

I could see it happening, but I can't really imagine that I sold it to you and I say it has this feature and then you go to them and they take it away.

That would be like a consumer nightmare.

Or here's another thought.

Not that I'm giving Tesla any good ideas, but you could also start forking your software development or hitting pause buttons and say, you know, as part of our ongoing commitment to future software upgrades, blah, blah, blah, blah.

The new feature set is X, Y and Z.

And that's just how it is on vehicles going forward.

And you would have the choice of maybe not getting a software update and have your vehicle frozen in time and have that feature as it worked then, but then you don't get all the new stuff.

And that could then sort of, I guess, help roll people along.

Who knows?

Yeah, the illusion of choice.

Moving along though, the, the sort of Tesla thing that I'm driving this week is a Polestar four, which you drove relatively recently.

I drove in Spain and it was a hot mess because that thing was so underbaked.

It was, have you ever, have you ever looked at a cupcake and you're like, that looks delicious.

And then you bite into it and it's raw in the middle because the oven was too hot or something went wrong and it's just not right in the middle.

Are you saying that was, that's your Polestar four experience?

Yeah.

It is a lot better, but, but I will say it makes me scratch my head that every Polestar that has existed so far has a vastly different personality.

It's like a schizophrenic car company.

But not helpful.

I have a Polestar four, but now I have a family.

So I'm going to get a Polestar three.

It is not the same.

Yeah.

Cause, and they're, this is strangely unique.

I mean, you go by a BMW and there's, they're all, they're all shades of BMW, right?

I mean, the front wheel drive vehicles don't drive like the rear wheel drive ones, but there's a, there's a smorgasbord, oh, oh, front wheel drive BMWs, X1, X2 and the two series Gran Coupe, et cetera.

And then we got the smorgasbord of rear wheel drive ones and, you know, two series, rear wheel drive coupe drives kind of like a four series, which is not that far off of an eight series and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Polestar four, three, two, and one, but like four different cardinal directions, like, wow, they're all off.

It's not that the Polestar four is bad in any way, but it, it also doesn't feel or look exactly like the rest of the Polestar is inside though.

My biggest issue with the Polestar four is I don't know who wants one because it's not a sedan and it's not really a crossover.

I think on its own, you put it in a pedestal and you go, what do you think of this?

And I go, I liked it, but who stumbles across it?

Who is shopping for what and goes, but I should drive a Polestar four also.

It just sits in such a weird space and it's not one that I think anyone is running towards.

So who is, who is, what are you shopping against a Polestar four?

It's like you want a model S, but you can't afford one and a model three feels too small.

That's kind of it.

But it's like a tall sedan.

It's a weird.

The body is tall, but it's not high off the ground.

So like parking lot, the headstones and parking lot, small curbs, et cetera, the front end will grab onto them.

So be real careful. It's not, it is not high.

I think the customer is someone that went to the Tesla dealer was stuck between these two worlds, model three, model S and thought to themselves, you know what?

These Teslas have one window too many.

Yeah, I can see a little bit too much real light through the rear view mirror.

Yeah, exactly.

I think if I got a Polestar four, I would have to wrap that cut out black.

So it looked right.

You know, I will say, I like the rear seats in the Polestar four, which is a little bit strange because it's not a, it's not a big vehicle and it has really like there's more attention to the rear seats than I would expect of a vehicle of that size.

I've never bought a vehicle for the rear seat comfort specifically.

I'm sure somebody has.

That's true.

But if you are, that's where Polestar four was made for.

Even if you live in China, wouldn't you, wouldn't you probably look at a bigger vehicle to have more room in the back?

Not necessarily because remember, this is the land of stretched C classes and stretch three series and stretch desk.

Odd where everything needs a big back seat and a comfy thing because maybe you can afford your private driver, but your company is only doing this the matter whenever size wise.

It's an interesting world that doesn't fit the American psyche.

But no, it's such an odd grouping of things.

It's definitely quick.

It feels so much faster and lighter than a Polestar three or Polestar two.

It feels very dynamic.

It's very, very video game like the steering is numb as all get out and very quick.

So like it's dirty on the highway, but it's oddly actually a little slower than Volvo ZX 30, which did surprise me at a tiny tick.

But the bigger thing with the Polestar four is that it has no rear window, which I think it should still have one.

It proves to the American audience that cameras are not always the answer.

And it also doesn't have lumbar support standard in the front seats, which is a weird omission for something with its price tag.

Right. But I believe you can get that plus package on pretty much every configuration, right?

So you can have it.

I actually almost appreciate that you can get sort of a stripped out version.

Because if you say, hey, I like this vehicle, I like some of the performance of it, but I don't want all the doodads.

You can kind of get it without doodads, which I'm not sure there's a huge market for that, but there's somebody out there.

And for fifty six four, fifty six thousand four hundred dollars starting, not including destination.

I think it needs these doodads standard because that is above average for a new car price in America.

It's not like it's like a thirty thousand dollar Polestar or anything.

Leases for five ninety nine a month currently something like that.

So I am just torn as to who it's for.

Listener viewer, if you own or lease a Polestar four, let us know why you did it down there.

Because we don't think it's bad.

Yeah, this is not a this is not a Polestar bashing thing.

That just my my my my brain aches every time I think about Polestar.

We've talked about this before.

Why do they exist?

Why is it not just a Volvo?

That is still a valid question.

But I am seriously considering sometime mid this year when our Chevy Blazer EV leases up.

I'm thinking about a Polestar three.

So this is not an anti Polestar conversation since that's pretty high on the shopping list.

Is it going to be Polestar three?

Is it going to be?

Which we need to talk about next.

I don't know.

We don't know the answers to these questions, but I have to say Polestar three.

I love it is big.

It's comfy.

It's quiet.

It rides like a dream.

It's going to have an eight hundred electrical architecture soon.

Goodness.

We don't know whether it's going to lose any fun to drive in the eight hundred volt transition

because it seems like it's going to be losing the torque vectoring rear axle,

which is a weird point.

That would be a loss.

Yeah, that would be a bummer.

But also a bummer, Chevy's Bolt is only going to last 18 months.

We now know the timeline.

Yeah.

So they threw a whole literal block party and said the bolt is back.

And we said, oh, okay, what are we doing?

And then the answer was not a lot.

We're just bringing it back.

And it was like, okay, cool.

We like affordable EV options.

And I think for a daily commuter car, the bolt is fantastic, truly fantastic.

It's a hatchback.

It's got space, vertical space, not as much width space.

My friend had one for years.

I've put tons of miles on them.

And I went, this is a great little car.

And it got a little extra range.

So, you know, the actual EPA number ended up better than thought.

A little bit more power, right?

We swapped in some of the drivetrain components,

but not massively overhauled the whole concept.

It still fits within that bolt bubble.

The question is, would you bolt or would you get theoretically the even cheaper

leaf, which is coming and will undercut it by a bit?

Oh, it's a tough one.

I guess I would come down to how different does that leaf drive?

Because I enjoy the leaf.

It was quite comfortable.

And it does feel, I think, more refined than the bolt does.

There is sort of a economy aspect built into the bolt.

Yeah.

I like a hatchback.

I like the practicality of it.

Cheap leaf, baseball, darn.

That's a tough one.

But I might be leaning towards the leaf.

I might be leaning towards the leaf.

Yeah.

Now, my particular quandary is that the next vehicle we must talk about is

Volvo's biggest news, honestly, in recent memory.

And that is the all new EX-60.

And as I said, you know, the Chevy Blazer is leaving.

I definitely need to sell the Grenadier because it just does

not fit even though I love it for reasons that are.

I keep low balling you, but you're holding strong.

I don't know.

The Grenadier is simultaneously the worst thing I have ever,

ever driven as a brand new car.

Wouldn't it be nice to be kept in the family?

You can come visit it on occasions.

I mean, yeah.

I might need to keep it so I can leave it to my children.

That's the thing.

It's, it's, it is one of the coolest things in the world, but.

They claim,

they claim it was designed to be this generational vehicle you see.

So clearly.

Honestly,

but honestly it could cause people are still handing down their defenders

that you're just like,

you're zip tying together to keep running and go,

would you like a modern one?

I just need to, I need to buy it.

I need to buy a sheep farm in Snowdonia and then,

and then I can leave that and the Grenadier to my children.

And only it's not, it's not right-hand drive, but whatever, you know,

details, details,

whatever,

probably ought to sail off into the sunset.

And I keep thinking,

because I need the room in the back seat for child seats.

Yeah.

We're facing child seats.

And so Polestar three fits beautifully,

not quite as well as Blazer because Blazer is enormous in the back.

But the blazer sailing off into the sunset,

it does not make sense to keep it.

The lease cost is too high.

It's had some, some weird GM isms here and there,

and the lack of carplay rubs me the wrong way.

But, you know, that's that.

So we have EX-60 and we have Polestar three,

two things from the Volvo Geely conglomerate crazy thing.

Yeah.

That are strangely similar,

yet also completely different since it by all appearances

will be a shared battery design,

battery pack, no, but battery design and likely shared electric motors

between the updated 800 volt system in the Polestar three and the EX-90,

of course, too.

And the EX-60, but EX-60 is all special.

Yeah.

I really liked the EX-60.

And if I was in your shoes, that is a tough one.

Actually, the deciding factor might be a torque factor in rear axle.

Truly in that situation,

because there is a lot of room in that EX-60.

There's not as much cargo volume admittedly,

but the people space, very good, very attractive.

Just smooth, smooth, smooth, but not in a bean pod sort of way.

It feels like an elegant look.

You have your choice of rear wheel drive, all wheel drive,

performance all wheel drive up to 400 miles of driving range,

rated driving range.

But what most people come into is right around that 320 mark

with the all wheel drive with a little bit bigger battery.

Quick charging, even if not,

well, actually it's very near top of the line, really.

I guess the only thing you might not like is the screen layouts

and it's a little bit more, you know,

a lot of commenters said a lot more Tesla here than they would like.

To me, it felt very Polestar, which sort of makes sense.

I like the EX-60.

I like it a lot.

Yeah.

And the numbers are fantastic on this.

So we should go over this.

So there are going to be three different battery packs.

They're all going to charge on a DC charger 10% to 80% in just 18 minutes.

This is one of the fastest EVs as far as charging goes in the United States.

And what's also shocking is that the 19.2 kilowatt onboard AC charger

is going to be standard in every model.

Now, if we compare this to the Tesla line,

this is where I think things get interesting because up until this point,

we've seen a lot of Tesla fighters, Tesla beaters, et cetera,

that match what Tesla is doing with a different vibe or they get close, you know.

But this is kind of a different game because EX-60 should have more cargo room than Model Y.

It actually is a little bit better than XC60.

Performance is relatively similar.

We're talking the shortest range one will be 310 miles of EPA range.

The all-wheel drive one will get you 320 miles of EPA range.

And the upcoming P12 model, which is going to be a year after the others go on sale, mind you,

that will give you 400 miles of range and a zero to 60 of 3.8 seconds.

But that charging thing, I think this is what is going to help people understand how this fits in.

In 18 minutes, you'll get a 280 miles of range recovered.

So in that 18 minutes.

It's 165 miles.

Yeah, it's in Spain.

So that's the thing.

The big thing, I think, is that you 10% to 80% charge your Model 3 or Model Y,

you get significantly less range and it takes longer to do that.

So this is a big shift.

And I think putting this in better perspective, here's how that stacks up.

So you get 280 miles of range in under 20 minutes versus a Model Y performance.

It would take about an hour to get that same because you would have to drive that battery all the way down to about 4 to 5%

and charge it to completely full to get 280 miles of EPA range.

That's the interesting twist there.

There are just two problems that I see with that, though.

The AC charging speed, which is also equally impressive,

is going to necessitate a 100 amp circuit for your home and not yet.

Well, to make use of it.

Otherwise, it's not going to be any faster than anybody else's, right?

So if you don't install a 100 amp EVSE, it's going to be the same as your Model Y.

The other part, though, is that this will require a 400 kilowatt DC fast charge station to actually exercise that full speed.

And those are really thin on the ground.

Yeah, 350 kilowatt is pretty easy to find these days.

So if you're going to a big charging block, you're going to have a couple of them at 350, 400, maximum, and that's where it gets tough.

But most of those 350s are shared output.

So of course, if the dude next to you is charging their vehicle, then yours is going to be cut in half.

And if you want to use the most reliable and best positioned charging network for interstate travel, which is Tesla's,

it's going to be significantly slower because this is a 400 volt EV.

And by all appearances, Volvo has not commented on this officially and my emails have disappeared into the engineering black hole.

Will we wait and answer from Sweden?

But it appears that the charge rate on a 400 volt system is going to be about 120 kilowatts.

So it's going to take a lot longer there.

Similar we saw over with the Korean brands, you know, just a big drop off.

And that, I mean, you want to talk about a ill informed consumer or, you know, whatever we call it.

That's one of those charging complications that people don't need.

They don't need to see this number and then pull up to what they are told is a fast charger and not get anywhere near it.

It does at least bode well for future proofing because it's going to use the J3400 connector.

It will have supercharger access from the get go according to Volvo.

And Tesla is finally rolling out more V4 charging stations, which will be able to charge this natively at that hundred.

Sorry, 300, 360, 380 kilowatt mark in order to get that that 18 minute charge time.

So I am curious to see how rapidly Tesla builds that out because Cybertruck sales have not exactly, you know, lit up the barn, right?

And if Cybertruck had been rolling off the line at, I mean, at least at 50 to 100,000 units a year, which I don't even think we're going to hit that in 2026.

Then I think there would be more incentive to build that network out faster.

But as it is, I don't think Tesla has a reason to really hit the accelerator pedal on V4.

No, I think the only reason to do that would be if the ever elusive cyber cab suddenly was going to benefit from those.

And they are testing now without drivers, apparently, but still not around the corner, I don't think.

Yeah. And by all appearances from what the rumors that I have seen is that we should expect the cyber cab to not use an 800 volt battery.

It probably will just use similar battery tech to model Y in order to keep costs low.

But I don't know. And do we even think cyber cab is going to be real?

So that's a whole different question.

It would make sense to go on the more affordable route, but then you want the faster charging because it is going to be for a business use.

And those, you know, time is money type of thing.

But you're not paying a human operator.

So right, that's the question, you know, is the robot going to be fine hanging out there just doing that thing.

Right. And who's going to plug it in if it needs to be plugged in?

I mean, obviously we'll talk about wireless charging, but I think all those those models testing right now have a good old fashioned plug.

Yeah.

So I don't know what the one thing I will say about EX 60 that bugs me a tiny bit is the door handles and the fact that they're not they're not a mechanical release from the outside for a safety obsessed brand like Volvo,

especially in the light of increasing interest from standards agencies around the world.

And of course, consumers suing companies about including China, including China, right.

And that is the one question.

What is the solution for China because China appears that this is not going to fly there.

Volvo.

There is already a mechanical mechanism for the inside.

So it's a two stage door handle.

Cannot open her own door.

Yeah, yeah, not helpful from the outside.

Yeah. And if if my seven month old burns in a hypothetical fire where she is trapped in the vehicle, I would probably just leap on the car and just go with the whole thing, you know, so

that seems logical in my brain, but at any rate.

But that's that's the problem I think in my brain and Volvo says that they've addressed this it has a cross linked backup electrical architecture that provides power there even if the high voltage battery is is missing, which is something that the car companies don't do but

Yeah, and the crash tested it and they claimed it in the crashes that they've done even with the battery is affected yada yada yada. Everything still works.

What also works regular old door handle.

I think they actually just might be a victim of timing not to say that the electric is always the way to go no matter what it sounds like they said hey the world is going electric.

As far as these releases so we want to make sure that we're not falling behind that we're going to go ahead and make this step forward and here's all the backups just in case.

And then this car is already finalized and then you get regularly was go, ooh, we're not doing that and they go.

Yeah, but I mean we've known China.

China is doing China for a while there that writing has been on the wall there for a long time and the Chinese government doesn't generally trot out things like this and then go oh never mind.

So, the trajectory on on one pedal driving and and electronic door releases I think is pretty well sealed for China we just don't know where that off ramp is exactly but we know.

We know that it's coming and of course the mechanical door thing is is set in stone for the Chinese market now so that's the curiosity that I have.

Is there just a version that we haven't seen that does have physical handles and we'll see that in China and then if the US does something about this then we'll also see it here.

Yeah, but yeah.

So, so two questions for you.

The first one is on the performance level is the performance performance see enough, or does it seem like they're leaving a little bit of wiggle room for something like poll star to say no no we're the performance brand.

poll star probably will have some version that will be slightly better I be willing to bet that it will continue being kind of what we've seen in the existing crosses here, where poll star three is minorly more fun than an ex 90 but the bigger thing is that has a higher top speed.

It's not that we're going over 112 here anyway.

But I am surprised that for the safety obsessed brand.

It's logical to mind you that they have decided to have really quick vehicles, they have to to compete with the Germans right, but it is.

It is sometimes a little bit like head scratchy like how does that go with everything here.

Because limiting your top speed does nothing realistically for the American market in terms of safety, having a vehicle maybe that doesn't go zero to 60 and three and a half seconds maybe that would be safer.

I don't know.

But that's what they did here.

Yeah, 3.7 so they totally.

You know, made sure.

Ex 30 is like a 3.4 second car ex 30 is wicked fast.

That's just a little rock the whole purpose there is to be a rocket.

Right.

But the rest of it, I really am intrigued by this because this is this is a new platform for Volvo and Volvo.

They're an odd company when they talk about platforms because ex 90.

They're saying it's a unique dedicated EV platform.

Let me be blunt.

It is not it is a heavily heavily modified ex C 90 platform.

Yeah, so, you know, it was designed for the battery trays, et cetera, but the crash structures and a lot of what's going on up front and in the back is actually quite similar to ex C 90.

So it's as much the same platform as an MDX and a Honda pilot are related to one another because they absolutely are the new one though this new ex 60.

Yeah, this really is a different twist here because the the unibody has been significantly changed.

There are probably some some, you know, components and and design themes that are similar in crash structures, et cetera, but it's a very different vehicle structurally and they're going to be using bigger castings.

They're going to be using structural battery packs that are serviceable from the inside of the vehicle as I recall rather than the outside in the vehicle.

So it's a it's definitely an interesting shift there.

Their focus was efficiency, charging speed and and reducing the curb weight.

It's not Model Y light, but for a Volvo EV it is really quite light.

So then my second question is ex 60 or ex 60 cross country.

That's an interesting one to I would just go with a regular ex 60.

The cross country thing is good marketing and some people love the style, but I don't see the need for it somehow necessarily.

Besides some of the styling and I have to admit, you know, it's a small one, but the the little strip in the back that says cross country in the stainless steel.

I went, ooh, that's good looking.

Besides some of the bits that make it less smooth.

It really comes down to the suspension and the suspension in this case is an air suspension where the all wheel drive gets adaptive and then the rear wheel drive gets a coil spring.

So if you're going to go all wheel drive, you could say, hey, really why you would look at a cross country besides some of the aesthetics really comes down to do you want an air suspension?

Do you want a little extra lift if you need it?

Yeah, and here I would say I want to drive them first because it depends on how it's tuned.

If the air suspension is tuned towards the comfortable side, then you know, I might I might want the cross country instead of the regular one.

But Volvo's ride typically has been on the softer side of the European segment.

So certainly firmer than Lexus, but generally not as firm as some of the BMW and Mercedes lineup, although X5 rides really nicely.

It's very, very comfortable, cloudy like with that that air suspension.

So I think it it's all going to come down to how it's tuned for me.

Yeah, because I don't think you'll need it.

Yeah, wouldn't need it.

You don't need it for the ground clearance.

Not really.

But but if it is noticeably more comfortable or noticeably sportier, right, if you switch it into these different modes, that might be worth a look.

Yeah, it's I'm curious to see if we will be able to sample the air suspension at the first drive for the EX 60 or whether that's going to come later or not details.

The cross countries, I think are are not the first ones will get the EX 60 all wheel drives that'll be the first ones we really get to just put our hands on 320 and 310 mile range ones are the ones we're going to get first.

And those those range figures are going to drop down depending on the tires at the wheels that you get.

So that's the higher number optimistic side.

Yeah, right.

So it looks like it's it's going to be about a 30 30 mile or so difference between the different wheel and tire packages on those different trim levels.

Basically 10 miles per inch.

Yeah, pretty good top line numbers anyway you slice it though for those those models.

But the P 12 and they'll be the P 10 will come initially it's the all wheel drive regular performance one, the higher performance P 12.

That's going to be about a year delayed so I'm pretty sure we won't sample that at the launch event.

My my curiosity is more like are we going to see the P 10 regular EX 60 and the P 10 cross country at the same time.

Or will that be just sort of at least not getting to line up later.

I would almost be surprised if we saw a P 10 and the P six the standard rear wheel drive at the same time.

I know that P 10 will be there for sure.

That's going to be the sweet spot for this model cross country or otherwise.

But I'm almost surprised they have a P six.

I love I love that in the delineation it's so many more numbers below you know the P 10 and the P 12.

It's half of the P 12 like yeah okay it's it almost seems like it does it a bit disservice why not be a P 8 small small things.

But I appreciate that they have it because you can get basically the same range and if you don't actually need all wheel drive.

I'm not someone who needs all wheel drive.

I'm like give me rear wheel drive give me some fun drive vehicles out there where I don't need to have a second motor that I probably will never use.

I think the logical reason is especially for Europe and China two wheel drive EVs sell relatively well.

There is not always this need for only all wheel drive all the time in a lot of world markets and Volvo is a global car company and the US is not by any stretch their biggest market,

which is the continually the interesting twist with Volvo.

And when whenever I encounter people that ask why does Volvo do this why don't they do that.

That's the first thing that I'll go back to is well remember that generally speaking the luxury car company brands that we see in the US.

Acura Lexus BMW Mercedes etc.

The US is their largest market Europe is sometimes the largest market or sometimes second.

That's not the case for Volvo Volvo's largest market is Europe and their second largest market is China may actually be their largest market at some point in the future and the US is the third largest market for Volvo.

So in Volvo hates it when I describe it in these terms because they're like no we absolutely design cars for North America but really they don't they design cars for Europe for China and then we get things that they think will work with America.

But you'll notice in the lineup there is no model that is uniquely American for the Volvo lineup.

Like we do see theoretically at one point in time in some of the other car companies lineups you know Acura is almost exclusively a North American brand it's it's very very limited in terms of markets outside North America.

Lexus only recently was even sold in its domestic market of Japan.

And when we look at the the German options there had been SUVs in the past where initially they were like maybe this is only going to be sold in the US maybe won't be sold in Europe and they're made in the US.

So you can tell by where they're building the SUV is where the focus is that for BMW and Mercedes at least initially when those models were cooked up and and construction was was designed from the beginning to be here in the United States.

That's that's obviously where the focus was and Volvo doesn't have quite that same calculus for better or worse.

I personally like it because it helps them be a little bit different and you get to see something that is not not just focus grouped to death.

Right.

But at the same time they keep some of the fun wacky options away from us like you know you could depending on the year you can get some really wacky colors especially interior colors and some Volvos in Europe and we never get that kind of fun here.

Well there's you know if you're ever in Sweden there's a world of Volvo you know setup unfortunately I missed it so at some point I have to go back but my first international trip my favorite part was all the other cars out there.

I saw a lot of short wheelbase ID buzzes being used as your everyday you know company cargo van.

But it made me long absolutely for more hatchbacks and more wagons especially there in Sweden.

There are tons of them many many many were in those Volvo badges but it was it was fun to see cars that I just cannot literally cannot see here or you don't see in anywhere near the same quantity.

I just I'm sad that we don't see any resurgence in in the European brands before the Stalantis merger PSA the Pujo Alliance there was Citroen.

They were talking about bringing DS to the United States and DS used to be part of Citroen.

And it had since subsequently been spun off into its own brand it's a very style forward French car thing.

And that's what I think is intriguing about some of these brands that we don't get in the US is that the style of especially a DS is very different from what we see here.

The rest of the brands I would say by and large tend to be very similar to what North Americans would would accept.

You know the the average Volkswagen BMW Mercedes etc.

Even though they're models that are sold in Europe that we don't get here they're not vastly different.

Volkswagen's all kind of have a Volkswagen vibe.

They're different sizes different shapes but they all kind of look like a Volkswagen right.

And a lot of the other brands under Volkswagen envelope Seat you know Škoda etc.

They're all very similar.

Cooper I would love to see Volkswagen's Cooper brand come to the United States.

That would be kind of fun.

That's the sub brand if I'm remembering correctly of Seat from Spain it's the Spanish Volkswagen's performance sub brand.

Anyway Volkswagen's got a lot of things there but DS is quirky and weird because nobody does weird and quirky like the French and I'm even the logo looks kind of wacky and fun.

But but they've got some really weird interiors if you ever have the chance to just wander through their online configurator.

I would say go to France and just the French the French DS website because the Irish market and not all the English speaking markets get the full lineup.

But they've got some wackadoodle things as far as dashboard layouts weird geometrical dashboard layouts with different button modules and different inconsistent places and you know it is it is all kinds of crazy.

But that's that's I think what we're missing in the US is a little bit of a little bit of crazy fun.

Yeah I mean we only get so much and you have to be the world power in automobiles to demand all the attention and we're losing some of that so we we're just going to have to catch up and start getting with the program.

And if everybody out there if anybody out there I should say is planning on spending more than two weeks in Europe you can actually sample some of the weirdness that is the French automobile because I still don't quite understand exactly why

Citroen and Pujo do this but Citroen Pujo Citroen Pujo and DS will lease you a short term lease as a tourist you have to be there for at least two months or at least two weeks 15 days or up to six months so you can do the short term two week or six month lease on a new car and you

get limited configurations of course the ones that they think they can resell but rates are supposedly competitive to rentals unlimited mileage you get a brand new car lots of pickup and drop off locations around Europe.

The only quirky part is you can't drive to the UK anymore because they're not part of the EU but the rest of Europe is is your oyster you can drive all over wander around and you brand new Pujo or DS and experience the wackiness that is the French car.

Did you sample that when you were overseas or is that a maybe next time.

No, I've always wanted to do it but I've never had the right timing to be able to do it because usually we're wandering to too many different places.

And this time the trip was just a little bit too short and the way that it worked out we had to take the train here and there so it didn't work out to do the road trip.

But I think I definitely need to do it before I die let's put it that way.

It's definitely on the list.

Well, at least you know what you're doing next time.

I will say though French cars, you know they're just not as weird as they used to be they don't have weird toggle switches for turn signals on the dashboard anymore.

The turn signal self cancel so when you turn the turn when you turn the steering wheel, you know the turn signal turns off.

Citroen as far as I know has no vehicles now where the airbag doesn't move that was their thing for a long time was the airbag didn't move when you turn the steering wheel.

I always thought that was quirky and cool but sadly even they have have gone by the way son.

Yeah, but the reason we don't see many of them in the US is of course that a French car with a you know 100 something horsepower maybe 110 horsepower three cylinder engine.

It's not going to go over well for a lot of Americans know the closest we're going to get to that is the new cute little fiat that will make its way to a retirement community in your neighborhood.

Yeah, maybe maybe I but why would you not just get a golf cart I don't know such a good question.

Yeah, who knows the answer to that question.

But that and more will happen in our next episode so we will see everybody next week.

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