Hagerty Bull Market List Explained: What Cars Are Becoming Collectible with Larry Webster

Welcome to The Accelerator, a podcast for insurance agents and brokers who know there's

more to life than bundling home and auto.

Yeah, we're talking collector cars, better sales strategies, and ideas to grow your business

without boring you to death.

This isn't just another industry podcast.

It's the one you're actually going to want to listen to.

Welcome back to The Accelerator, season two of the podcast from Hagerty built for insurance

agents and brokers who want to win in the enthusiast and collector vehicle space.

I'm John Gessner.

And I'm Brian Colley.

And yes, we are back for season two.

I just have to thank the audience so much.

All the considerate notes, texts, LinkedIn messages, emails, all the support, the likes,

the wins, all of those things and fueled us and powered us to bring back season two.

And yes, today, John is still recovering from an improv show he did last night.

My first time seeing him, this guy is hilarious.

We might have to do a season two episode to decide improv comedy.

But today, we're going to try to keep him under control and stay on track, but no promises.

Hey, no promises on that front.

But Brian, really, it was so great to see you and your lovely wife Renee at the show.

Really appreciate you coming out.

But for today, here's what I can promise you.

This episode is a practical one for an agent's book of business.

We're talking about the brand new Hagerty bull market list.

And we're framing it in a way that the agent should.

Not as car investing, but as a signal of what's becoming collectible, what's becoming special

and what's increasingly a good fit for specialty coverage.

Exactly right.

So the bull market list, John, is that like bull like bull or like bull like stock or bull

like farm animal?

Like what's the bull market list?

And if it was bull like farm animal, we would be on the wrong podcast.

This is more bull like bull like in stocks.

Okay, perfect.

So yeah, the bull market list reflects something we talk about a lot on the show,

the hobby, where it's going and the trends.

So cars from the nineties and 2000s, vehicles that don't look quote unquote classic to the

untrained eye.

Those are absolutely enthusiast vehicles now and that's where agents can win.

If you know what to listen for and what to look for, what questions to ask,

today is all about telling you and predicting the future of what types of vehicles will be

collectible starting today.

That's right.

And because no one just wants to hear from Bryant and I for a whole hour,

we have got with us today, Larry Webster, the Larry Webster,

Hagerty, Senior Vice President of Media, and one of the most credible voices in car culture.

He's one of the people that's shaping how Hagerty shows up as authentic car people.

Larry Webster is a well-known name to car enthusiasts.

If you've ever read the Hagerty magazine or maybe actually any automotive magazine,

you've read his work.

If you've ever been on our social media or a website,

you've most likely read something that him or his team has written.

He's the ultimate car nut and dare we say a certified classic himself.

Larry, early on, traded engineering for journalism,

worked at car and driver back starting in 1995.

He led road and track and he's fueled Hagerty's automotive passion from racing himself to

restoring his own vehicles to work in his own set of classic cars, DOI, all kinds of things.

Today, we're going to get into what the bull market list is, why we make it,

and most importantly, how you as an agent can use it to spot opportunities,

protect your clients, and write the right risks the right way.

That's right, Brian. So let's jump right in.

Well, Larry, we are so excited to have you today.

Really appreciate you finding time to join Brian and I on our accelerator podcast to

really share your knowledge and wisdom and give us and our audience some insight and

perspective into the classic collector enthusiast vehicle space and community.

And just thank you for being here.

Oh, happy to be here. Thanks so much.

So Larry, you've got a very cool job, just full stop.

Especially when it comes to Hagerty and then broadly in the insurance industry,

could you just start off like, how would you describe your background and your role here at

Hagerty? Yeah, it's a crazy fun job and I'm really grateful.

But basically what I do is I create material about cars for car fans.

And that's in all the mediums, right, from video to social to websites to a printed magazine.

The idea being, I was hired about 10 years ago by Michiel Hagerty.

I was running Road and Track Magazine. I've been in automotive media for decades and always

a car nut and he's like, look, I want people to know that we're authentic car people.

And the best way to do that is to show them, not tell them.

So I want you to do what you're doing over there, but do it here.

We're going to build an audience and that's basically what we've done.

And now we have in the world, one of the largest circulation magazines.

We have almost 4 million YouTube subscribers.

We have about a million people come through our website every month.

We've got roughly, I mean, these social media numbers, who knows if they're real,

but they're 4 million. And the idea being, we're one of you.

We love these stuff as much as you are. And based on this material that we're producing,

we hope we're establishing that authenticity.

Yeah, Larry, I think it's interesting for an insurance company to have someone like you and all

the accolades and our magazine has won awards and stuff like that.

To your point, do you see any other insurance companies or any other,

even in the space, like doing the stuff we're doing?

Or is that truly like really unique of everything we do?

I'm really glad you brought that up because the reason I was open to coming here was I was already

a customer. I already had Hagerty Insurance. And the reason I did is I knew if something happens

to my baby, our cars are our babies. We love these things. We cherish them.

And it's a significant part of our income. It's a big money that we have tied in them.

And I knew that Hagerty was going to take care of the car. It was going to take care of me.

And the reason I knew that is they were like me. It wasn't. I didn't have to explain what was

important to me. I didn't have to explain how tricky it is to get this car fixed.

I didn't have to explain why it's different than a normal car and that it's appreciating,

not depreciating. I didn't have to explain. I might want to keep my parts if I total my car.

I didn't have to explain. I'm not going to the local body shop to get my car fixed.

And this is a big deal in the automotive community. It's a big deal and we know it.

And when I say we, I mean car nerds like me. And so to me, the idea to build a platform to

broadcast that was already there was like a no-brainer.

Yeah, that makes total sense. You're right, Larry. Like, you know,

McKeel talks a lot about when we've talked in this podcast, a lot of companies quote-unquote

offer, you know, collect your car insurance. But to do that deed like we do when the claim happens,

that's where the rubber beans the road, right? The details are super important to somebody like me.

I think to most people, I mean, we think based on our data, there's somewhere like 35, 40 million

cars out there that fit. That's sort of what you call collectible. And there's more every year

because, you know, time marches on. So it's a big audience. And so that was the other part of my

my motivation for coming here was I love this idea of being able to serve this community.

So all the stuff we do has that, first and foremost, it's like to create stuff that people

really resonate with and really to show we know what we're talking about. Because everybody says

they love old cars or classic cars or collectors, right? You see them in Eddie Bauer catalogs.

But somebody like me knows when somebody really gets it or don't just based on the

half a second view of this photo. I know this sounds crazy. And I can show you examples out

the window. It's true. We can detect it. We detect who's faking it and who's really living it

in a microsecond. And, you know, Haggerty, from all the stuff they did, I knew at the time, right,

they were training the people on the phone about cars by having those employee restoration programs.

There's a fleet of cars that Haggerty uses to get people behind the wheel who are talking to these

folks. They have people like me and others on staff to really try and educate and help folks

understand what's important to the audience and the community. And so they really walk the walk.

And, you know, if you think about all the other stuff that Haggerty does from the

Driver's Foundation to all the events that they do to the Driver's Clubs, and it's a company

of drivers built for drivers. That's really well said. And you just captured perfectly too. And,

you know, I've always had an appreciation for cars, but I come from a more of a marketing

background. But when I was looking for a new position and Haggerty hit my radar, it was that

authenticity that really attracted me to the company. Because if I'm going to devote my,

you know, energy and, you know, my time and my effort, and I'm going to try to sell something

and market something, I want to believe in it. And, you know, I really believe in Haggerty. I did

from day one, I still do. And it's because of decisions like this. And because we have people

like you and because we care and we are a company built by drivers for drivers. And that is really

part of our ethos. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So it's been fun. You know, you mentioned something about

the amount of vehicles that are out there, 35, 40 million with more kind of being classified as

collector or classic every year as time marches on. And, you know, this is a really a great time

to talk about this because we just published something called the bull market list. For our

listeners, you know, we've been doing this for about a decade. So there should be some familiarity

out there. But can you just introduce what the bull market is a little bit? Yeah, the bull market

is that is our ninth year for 2026. It's basically a list of cars every year that we believe are

going to appreciate slightly in value. And, you know, the one of the other things we didn't mention

is Haggerty has this valuation team. It's a team of data scientists that tracks car prices.

And McEw has this great story about why he started that was he wanted there to be safety

for people to buy and sell cars, meaning you understood what cars were worth.

Or there was an agreement about what it was worth. So we started this thing over 20 years ago.

And when I arrived 10 years ago, I was like, well, okay, this is great. We have past data.

Can you tell me? I mean, I was just sort of joking around. I was like, hey, can you guys tell me,

you know, if we think a car is going to go up in value, there's like this pause and Brian Raybold

runs it. He's very straight up, you know, kind of data guy and just goes, yeah, I think we do that.

I was like, wait, what? Holy cow. This is a big deal. And so that's how it started. And the idea

was always this is not about investing. If you think you're going to make money buying and selling

classic cars, I mean, good freaking luck. I mean, there's some professionals that do it, but that's

not why we're here. We're here for fun. We're here for enjoyment. We're here for community.

And my thought was it's a big expense to own a car. Are there certain cars that are on the

maybe going up a little bit so you could buy enjoy for a little bit and sell for about what

you had in it or maybe a little more? Holy cow. Then suddenly this activity is free

for most folks. And that's what we were trying to do is just really illustrate that this is

much more approachable hobby than I think most folks give it credit for.

Yeah, Larry, I think I've always appreciated the bull market list. I think you might have

stats on it, but it's been pretty accurate over the last nine years or so. It's been pretty good,

right? It's been really good. Right from the beginning, we do a report card every year to see

what we're doing. And this year we have all the previous eight years where we've listed like

how the car has gone up or down. And it's over 90% accurate. The other thing that's really important

that it's relatively easy to look at depreciation curves. And you could say like, okay, any car

built in 1989 is likely to be a bull market car because it's bottomed out and it might start coming

up. It's not that hard. But what we really spend a lot of time and effort doing is curating the list

to make sure there's cars from a bunch of different eras, to make sure there's cars at a

bunch of different price points, to really make sure there's something for everybody.

You know, this, for example, this year's list has a 56 to 57 continental mark two, right? Last year

we had an E-Type on there. Everybody said the Jaguar E-Type? Wait, what? Right. They went up,

they had this big spike up. And then they sort of came back down. And then they were seeing things

like, which is really interesting, is that the data folks at Hagerty, they don't just use past

sales data. They also use all the information at their fingertips, which include the number of people

calling Hagerty for quotes and the age of those people. So if they see a big spike in younger

people calling for E-Types, for example, they go, aha, the next generation is getting interested

in this car. And of course, why wouldn't you? E-Types are awesome. That's kind of how it came

around. That's one of the reasons it's really successful is it's based on that data, you know,

all the Hagerty ecosystem that we're pulling together to produce it. I wish my stocks were

90% accurate. Yeah, I had fun looking through that report card. I'm seeing a lot more up arrows

than down arrows are flat. And my son and I love looking through the bull market issues. He's nine.

And it's talking about something for everyone. He's looking for one of the most expensive cars

that you could possibly purchase. And I'm looking at, okay, what are the most realistic cars that

we might be able to purchase? So there's something for everyone and every issue for sure. Yeah,

that's what we're trying for. Yeah, I was bummed this year. I always look, I was abated breath.

My two cars, my 2014 Cayman S is not on there. My 97 trends AM is not on there. But to your

point, that's not why I own them. I own them because I want them. And maybe one year I'll be

on there, but that doesn't matter. But I want to dive right in. I have the magazine. Obviously,

Listener, if you don't have the magazine, that's because you're not a Hagerty drivers club member,

you can go to Hagerty drivers club and sign up. McKeel's been on several,

RCO, McKeel's been on several, you know, TV shows, so you can just Google Hagerty bull market,

Larry and his team and put out lots. You can find the list. Also, all the materials there for free

on Hagerty.com slash media, you just go to Hagerty.com, click media, it's all on there for free.

Also on our YouTube channel, we did a YouTube episode on the bull market for the past couple

of years. So that's all on there, all free. So it's free to everybody. We want this information

out there. Great. Thanks, Larry. Oh, you know, it's actually shocking to me and maybe it doesn't

shock to the listener, but I spend so much time spreading the gospel story of the new cars being

collectible that I was actually floored. You already brought one up. But the other one I was

surprised about was the Dodge Charger because, you know, I just felt like that maybe got lost

over the last couple of years. And now we're saying, hey, these, these cars are going to go up. And

I love what you put in that magazine. A hell yeah on four wheels. So talk to me a little bit about

you had charger. We have to be clear about this. This is the first generation charger. This is the

60s charger, the muscle car charger, not the one that's out now. A couple of years ago, we did

have the modern version of the charger out there, the wagon version called the Magnum,

because that's cars 20 years old now. So it's not necessarily a new car. You know, the Charger is

one of those great examples. This is built from 68 to 1970. It's very I'm going to use this word

iconic and I don't like using it, but you have to see it when you look at it, right? This was the

car that was in the Dukes of Hazard. This is the car that is just this really compelling shape.

This is the Mopars of the muscle car era. They were less produced than Mustangs and Camaros.

So it's a little more rarity. You also remember there was a time even in the 80s when Hemikutas

were million dollar cars. So there was a big spike up in prices and then they kind of got back down.

And so we thought these cars, which are just under about six figures, have come to a point where

they've softened enough that people are coming back and going like, oh, wow, I can get a charger

for that now again. Awesome. And we're seeing a lot of interest from younger generations in that

timeless design. And in terms of a muscle car experience, they make the right noises. They

do great burnouts. They just look fantastic. So there's a lot to recommend for this car. So we

think we don't know that this is a pretty safe place to put your money, especially if you get a

good one. No, that's cool. For the, you know, the hardcore, you know, muscle car enthusiasts,

this is good news. And you're right. I'm glad you clarified. I'm talking about the old charger

from the 16. It's not the new one, right? Totally. Yeah. But that's awesome. So the other one that

like we've been talking a lot about, but you guys put the nail in the coffin is the Mazda Miata or

the Mazda MX-5. You know, that is on the list. There's millions of these out there. And we've

been talking about, you know, insurance brokers and agents. If you see one of these on a standard

policy, it's not doing the client justice. These are going up in value. We've been talking about

this for a while. But for see that on the list, just talk about that because that's game changer

to have that actually physically on this list. Yeah. I mean, you guys are going to have to stop me.

Once I get going about Miatas, I just don't stop because I love them. You know, they came out in

1989. There's been four generations. And to your point, they're the last of the analog sports cars.

What I mean by that is in the enthusiast world, the idea that we don't have a computer-controlled

thing that's going to drive for me. It has a stick shift and good brakes and a great motor,

terrific feel through the steering wheel and the seats. There's not a lot left, especially

things that most people can afford. And the Miata is just an incredible car that gets forgotten

because it's not expensive and it's not rare. The first generation Miatas used to be like you

could buy them all day for three grand. Now they're 10. 10 minimums to get you a decent one.

So for this bull market list, what we saw is what happens a lot of times is that idea of

substitution. When a certain car gets more expensive, people look around, well, what else can I get?

And first generation Miatas get inexpensive. So now they're looking at the second generation

Miatas, which have a lot going for them. It turns a little more swoopier shape. It's a little more

modern. It has some downsides. It's not as necessarily as pure and as light as the first gen.

I actually, I have three first generation Miatas. That's how much I think of these cars. They're

fun to drive, great to work on. There's tons of parts and they are cheap. So to your point, Brian,

any Miata you see out there is an enthusiast car. Nobody owns those things unless they love driving

or love cars. So this is a great person to get to know, to find out about the car, to find out

what else they have in their garage, because a Miata is in a lot of ways a gateway drug to the hobby,

because I've done this for 40 years. And even if you're not a car person, when you get in a car

that really connects with a human as a machine, I'm going to stop there because I'm going to start

to get a little weird. But the Miata does that and people recognize it even if they're not car

people as soon as they drive 10 feet. And so I'm hoping I'm affirming your point there, Brian,

because I think you're right. Yeah, you are Larry, absolutely. John, I'm going to say my third one

because I've got a little bit of a story, a humiliation story as well. But John, I'll push

it over you. Like what cars surprised you or what cars do you want to talk about?

Yeah, I just want to put Larry at ease. It's totally okay to get weird on this podcast.

Brian and I host this thing, so it's constantly weird. There are a couple things for me. I'm

going to start with more of a macro observation. And what strikes me is because a lot of my job

is helping agents be successful, navigating the space and helping their customers get the right

protection. And with that is helping them understand what are the right types of vehicles

to place on a Haggerty policy. We have been known so long and for so well as a classic car company,

you know, we're really thought of as like that pre 1980s type of vehicle that goes to Haggerty.

But when I'm looking at the list this year, you know, I only see three cars, you know,

less than a quarter of the whole list are produced before 1980. Yeah, exactly. And then when you add

in another decade, there's just four that were produced before 1990. So the big bulk of the

list, two thirds of it are all post 90s vehicles. And I wonder if you could just talk a little bit

about that and how that kind of is a reflection of the change of in the enthusiast space.

I mean, it's that word in my view, it's that word classic. Classic denotes old and creaky.

And I think one of the struggles is that as automotive technology progressed, there was

leaps and bounds every decade, right? The 50s were incredibly better than the 40s, 60s the same,

70s the same, 80s the same, then about in the 90s it slowed down. So a lot of those cars and I don't

mean we have a lot of advances from hybrids and all that stuff. So I'm not suggesting it's stopped.

But I'm saying, if you think about a Miata, you don't think of it as an old car, but the first

Miata is 35 years old. That's an old car. Okay, if you think about in your 1990, a 35 year old car

was 1955 Bel Air Chevy, which felt like a tractor by comparison. And 1990 Miata does not feel like

a tractor compared to a brand new Miata that you can get today. So that Delta or that difference is

less. So I think that's one of the big things. But for sure, the interest that we see is post-1980

and any of those cars are certainly eligible because, John, an important thing that I think

people forget is after 10 years, a car is 10 years old, a manufacturer is not obligated to

produce parts for it anymore. So that's why you need the right place to cover and ensure these cars

because we actually have a whole team of folks that know the shops that can repair these things.

So that we're really taking care of the folks and on top of all the other stuff that we do,

because there are a ton of nuances to keeping these things on the road. And that's one of those

reasons where, like I said, I was a customer from the get go because I knew it. And so for the

agents out there to know it, it's like anybody that's got a car that maybe they're not driving every

day, that's probably a haggardy car. That's a great way to think about it. If it's that extra

vehicle that's not a daily driver, if it sounds or looks fun, it's a good indicator to maybe ask

a couple more questions. And as you know, the off-road segments like it exploding, right?

One of the ones on the bull market list was a ram charger. It's basically the Mopar version. And

we say Mopar, I should explain it. That's basically what Dodge was, like they call them Mopars,

the Ford Bronco or the Chevy Blazer. And we've had Jeeps on there. We have had all

kind of these off-road vehicles on the bull market list because vintage SUVs are growing in

popularity because some of the cars that my generation Gen X grew up with and therefore

generally we covet them were SUVs. The Jeep Cherokee came out in 1984. It's an old car, right?

We had a 91 GMC Jimi and gosh, I wish we still had that. We had that just about 10. We had it up

until about 10 or so years ago. Man, what a fun ride. The fun thing is though, as you know,

that the people that are into this space, they're passionate people and they love to talk about

it. So in terms of like connecting with your client, with your customer through their car,

there's really not a more powerful way to do it. And typically the people that can afford to own

these things, they have a lot of other toys and a lot of other things. They just have some

certain tendencies that mean you really want to know them and treat them right, I think. I mean,

it just seems like I'm always amazed that this is something we have to talk about because it just

seems like it makes so much sense to me. And definitely want to get back to some of those

points that you made, but just to hone in a little bit more on the vehicle list, because there's one

other thing that really a vehicle in particular that I found really surprising, especially if you

were to think, you know, maybe 10, 15 years ago, this vehicle would not have been considered, you

know, maybe a collector car. And maybe I'm wrong. So please tell me if you feel otherwise. But

it's like the 2006 to 2010 BMW M5. I mean, an M5 typically, right? It's a four door. It's a sedan.

It's not a car you necessarily think of as particularly special or unique or collectible.

So I just love to, if you could maybe highlight that one just a little bit. If an agent sees that

on a deck page, it might not trigger collector. That's a really good point. There are certain

special versions of everyday cars that are all day collectible. Collectible, I mean, special.

Honda makes a Civic, right? Honda Civic is like an everyday appliance car. Really good one, by

the way. Really good. But they make a version called the Type R that is a very special car that's

not necessarily a daily driver. There's all kinds of examples of similar versions of this. The BMW

M cars are special hot rod versions of everyday cars. So I see what you're saying. The 5 Series

BMW is their sort of like executive class. You know, you could see it like a CFO or SVP

driving it to work back and forth. But then what they do is they made this version called the M.

M stands for motor sports and they put in a V10 engine and a stick shift and they made it

every bit of a sports car. This is an insane car. I tested it back in the day. We drive them now.

They howl like a Formula One car. They've got 500-some-odd horsepower. They handle. These are

extraordinarily special cars. The reason they're not worth more is they're a nightmare to keep

running. So the maintenance costs are pretty high, but super cool. And yes, absolutely a

haggity kind of insurable car. I'll pause the M5 for a quick second because I want to get weird

for a sec on you. So in the magazine, it says when Larry Webster drove this M5 for car and

driver in 2006, I had to go get my 2006 car and driver. Yes, I have them all in my basement. It's

kind of weird. But my question for you as a personal one, when you were doing that for car and driver,

I'm sure maybe you did. But in your wildest dreams, would you be thinking 20 years later,

you'd be writing about that car being a collector car for a collector car magazine? I'm just curious

personally what kind of nostalgia that maybe had for you. No, I had no career plan. My career plan

was I just want to be around cars somehow, some way. And it was, as you can imagine, the competition

for those jobs was really hard. So I was only thinking a year out, what do I got to do now to

keep this job now? And so no, I was not looking down the road. Someday I'll be writing about this

in the rearview mirror, not even close. I was just focused on keeping it going and just had

immense gratitude that I was being paid to drive M5s and Carrera GTs and all those things. Because

I don't know if you know this, I was actually like the chief test driver. So I was taking them to

the track for lap times and zero to 60 times. And I mean, I wasn't just driving these things,

I was driving them at the limit. And so yes, I pinched myself all the time. It was pretty amazing.

That's really cool. And last thing on the M5, because I think it's such a range, we have the

values in here. And so a condition number one is you're going to go win a really prestigious

car show. It's 77,000. Condition number two, right? It's pretty good. You're going to win your local

city. Condition two is really freaking good. It's a little bit of a bug, I would argue,

of our nomenclature. Because you need to know what the best in the world is worth. And number

one really means the best in the world, which means there's like a handful of those around.

And then so when you get to number two, which sounds like it's second best and it is, but there's

like not that many number twos. Like they're really up there. The majority of cars are threes and fours.

Okay. So then so threes, we have 22,000 and fours is 8,000. I mean, that is another point of year.

Like, you know what, I think it's fine. I'm like, you know, an ACV policy because the insurance

company will take care of them. We're talking 8,000 to 77,000. That's such a range in values.

And yeah, if you're saying number three, number four, or most of the vehicles, but you have a

client who has a number two or number one, they dang well want that value, right, Larry? Oh my gosh,

of course. That's a really good point. I forgot about that. So tell us a little bit more about

that, meaning like how Haggerty is going to handle that because that is a huge point. Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. Right. So the advantage of Haggerty is the guaranteed value policy. So if you

have a client with the number one, and we insure it for 77,000, that's the guaranteed amount they're

going to get in a total loss, right? If you have an actual cash value policy or even a state of

value policy on these, you open your client up for depreciation because the insurance company

could argue, well, I see one on the internet right now for, you know, $8,500 proved to me that

yours is worth. And so you have all this negotiation, all this hassle. Oh, I'd be furious. I would be

furious. It probably took me five years to find the number two car. And then if my insurance

company is telling me it's worth 10 grand, I would be spitting fire. And imagine having that

conversation if you're an agent with your customer. Oh, it would be the last conversation we're having.

Exactly. Exactly. So yeah, just another point, guys, it's like, you know, help yourself out.

Put it on agreed value with Haggerty, guaranteed value with Haggerty. And that's part of the

reason why I'm to see our claims do it. And we've had our claims team on this. That's why our claims

team, besides all the parts they do and the expertise they have, that's the other reason why

our claims are so regarded is because we don't negotiate on value. It's like, you don't have to,

you take half the negotiation away, you really set yourself up for success, right?

Well, and the other thing is, I've heard Mikhail talk about this, you guys have talked about it,

like it's worth talking about. The day you crash your special car is a horrible day. And

if it comes with more pain, it just adds to it. You're already feeling down, especially if it's

something you did. You know, I shouldn't have parked it out there. I knew it. I knew it. I did

it anyway. And now I love this thing and it's ruined. And so what I've always heard you guys talk

about is we want to come in and fix it. And the claims people, they get in there and they fix it

in a couple of weeks. It's not, and I've heard this over and over again. I was a customer before

because I knew this is how I actually operated. They acknowledge that this is awful. We're sorry

this happened to you. How can we fix it? And they fix it. And this is me. If you go on our YouTube,

Jason Kameez is the same way. We've all been customers. I'm glad you brought that up because

the value part is pretty huge. And if they're telling me my car is worth $5,000 and I know

very well it's worth a lot more, that would be very painful for sure.

That's right. And you know, another value you mentioned our automotive intelligence team,

you know, the valuation data that we have, we don't just use to publish great articles and

magazines. It's also to help protect our customers so that when they're, you know,

and or the agent is getting a policy, we can help them understand what the value of the vehicle is.

So it's set correctly right from the outset. You don't have to necessarily be an expert

in vehicle values or watch the market really closely. That's what we're here for. We're here

to help with that. And another thing I want to touch on with value, and I'm going to put Brian on

the spot is we talked about this a little bit with the claims team, but what the proper valuation on

the policy means when it comes to claims time also, not just a total loss, but the decision to make

repairs and to what degree you can make repairs based on the value of the vehicle on the policy.

Yeah. Yeah, it's to your point, John, a lot of states have laws, you know, for newer vehicles

and usually you don't depend on the state 25 years and older, there's maybe the little gray area.

But if you have a vehicle, say that's worth $10,000, the state law might say, you know what,

once the repairs get up in that 70, 75% range, it has to be a total loss for the safety of the

vehicle. And that's not hard at these days. 70. I mean, I had a small little fender bender in my

truck or not defender, but our deer ran into the side of my truck, it was $10,000. So if your

car is assured, or the company thinks it's worth, you know, $10,000, that's going to be a total

loss. But if you have a policy with Hagerty and let's say the real value is more like 30 or 40,

$10,000 is not going to be so that's a, it's a really, you know, to John's point, it's a really,

besides protecting yourself from the value, it's also protecting the car from becoming a total loss

for a small, you know, $10,000 repair, which sounds crazy saying that out of my mouth, a small

$10,000 repair, but a small deer hit on the side of my Dodge Ram, $10,000, right? So.

That's a big deal. Yeah. I hadn't thought about that. So there's a lot of like nuances that have

big ramifications. The other thing I like that I have on all my cars is this thing called

cherished salvage. It's like the best thing I've ever heard of. You know, if it gets totaled,

you get to keep the carcass and it doesn't cost that much. It's like, well, yeah, of course,

I'm going to build another one. I mean, I'm going to get another one and I want these seats.

That's one of those things that I feel is not as well known as it could be, meaning like this is

an option. I think it's like so little cost, like, of course you're going to do it, right? I mean,

I mean, like under a hundred bucks, if memory serves, I see you nodding, Brian. Is that right?

Yeah, Larry, you're dead on and you're right. I think I'm glad you brought that up because I

think maybe a lot of people might think like, wait a minute, why would someone want their car

after it's a total? And, you know, let's just go to my ram. If my ram had been a total, I don't

want to keep it, but you dang well believe if that was my trans-am, I'm keeping that thing no matter

what, right? Yes. Yeah, I know I got a good motor. I know I got to do this and you're like, well,

not everybody's swapping parts around, but be surprised. Some of these older cars,

parts are hard to get. You want it in case you need it.

Yeah. Yeah, to Larry's point, that's a huge coverage. You get the total value, you get the

vehicle, there's no depreciation. And normally in a total loss, you get the value, so that's not

being disputed. But if you want to keep the car, let's say the parts are worth like $5,000, and

if it's worth $20,000, then you only get $15,000 plus the car. In this scenario, with the coverage

we're talking about, Sheriff Selvidge, you get the full vehicle value, so the $20,000 and the

Selvidge, which would be worth $5,000. So you're really getting like $25,000, which is a pretty

good deal. Yeah, I want to think that if I could say, I hope that agents use the resource that's

free for them, is that if they have clients that like cars or into cars, a category offers all

these newsletters that are free, that deliver automotive content that people really seem to like.

I mean, I've been doing this for a long, long time, 40 years. We have a team that knows what to

doing, and we look at the data, so it's been really successful. If you can get a daily newsletter,

you can get a weekly newsletter. We now have a Haggerty Marketplace, and so you're sort of able

to provide this sort of free content, or at least point them to it, and sort of say like,

here's a benefit. You don't have to be with Haggerty to get it, but just as a community

builder sort of thing. Same thing on our YouTube channel and our social channels, all that stuff.

So I hope people use that stuff, because it's pretty powerful, I think.

Agree, Larry, and we want to be those expert partners with our agents in this space, and

we share a lot of the material that you and your team produce across the media landscape,

whether it's YouTube videos or articles, through our agent newsletters, through the website,

through our LinkedIn channel. So absolutely a great way to stay connected. Please pass that

material, that content along to your customer base, especially those that love cars.

And since there's so much horse fluffy on the internet, it's very likely if you

heard Search Haggerty and whatever car your client has that you may want to find out a little bit

more, we've probably done something on it. I'm not going to say it's perfect, but I'm going to tell

you that we're going above and beyond getting our facts right more than any other automotive

property out there. So it's another good kind of resource where you can sort of learn a little bit

more about this and get some of your facts straight that I hope people are also using.

That's right, and people that love cars love to talk about their cars.

We love to talk about our cars.

That's right.

I'll dance with you till you're asleep.

Thanks, Greg. John, can I steal a thunder back and talk about one more car? Did you want to

hit one more? Take it, BK. So I'm actually nervous to share this story because it's really

humiliating, but, and I'm curious if you're worried about it too, but the other car that's

on there is the big dog, the Porsche Carrera GT, $2 million car in a condition 1, 1.5, 1.6

in a condition 2. So the story I want to share is back in the day when I was a claims adjuster,

we had a claim on one of these. It was a very, very unique claim. The client had bought it,

delivery only miles. He parked in his garage. He would go out into his garage every month and

started up and rev it, but he never drove the car one time. Right? It's bad.

Dude, yeah. All right, keep going. It gets worse. One day he goes out to rev it up and the battery

explodes because he forgot to put water in it. Oh, you might have to maintain the car even if

you don't drive it. There's certain things like putting water in batteries or changing the battery.

Most batteries are sealed. I think I could forgive him this problem, but keep going.

So the other interesting thing was, I don't know what this gentleman did for a living,

but he thought it was a car bomb. He thought he was going to die, which is interesting. Right?

Oh, dude. I know. So long story short, he did not want the vehicle. And so it was still under

warranty from Porsche. So we gave him, at that time, I think the value in the vehicle is like

330,000, which, hey, dang appreciation. I did not need to know that today, Brian. You did not have

to tell me that these cars are worth $300,000. But yeah, sure, keep going. So long story short,

we paid him out on the claim and then Porsche fixed it. And we brought the vehicle up to

Hagerty headquarters here in Traverse City. And I still remember, I still had like delivery

miles on it, right? Like things like 37 or 47 miles. And Mickey RCO was, hey, I want to take

my daughter to school in it. Cool. That sounds like the best ride ever for his daughter. Yeah.

So he took his daughter to school. Long story short, we brought it back to Hagerty and we have

these things at Hagerty called the collector in the car, where we have these really unique cars

that if you've ever been to our headquarters, we got these unique cars out front in our lobby.

And we at that time would bring the whole employee base and we'll talk about it. So we talked about

this car, you know, it's a Carrera GT. Most people never see one in their life. And then I was going

to meet the buyer because we were selling the vehicle and I was taking it to the airport. So

he's going to pick them up at the airport. This car I never driven before was the hardest car I've

ever driven because it has a really finicky clutch. And I stole that in front of like 450,

500 people. And I stole that multiple times Larry. So that's where my humiliated story came out.

Everybody stalls these things. Don't worry about it. Yeah. So that's my story.

You want me to nerd out and explain it? I do, I do. Yeah. So this car has a V10 engine that they'd

built for, it was one of the racing programs and they repurposed it. And what you want to do with

any car to make the handling better is you want to get the weight as low as possible. They call it

the center of gravity. One of the things that's against getting the center of gravity high is

what's called the flywheel. So at the end of any engine, you have this big metal disc called the

flywheel. And that adds some weight and inertia to the thing as it spins so that you don't get

these kind of any time a cylinder fires, it sort of smooths it out a little bit. Now I'm over

simplifying like crazy. So if people out here are real engineers, please go. So that a flywheel

could be 18 inches, 20 inches in diameter. And so that means the engine has to be far enough off the

ground so that flywheel doesn't hit the ground, right? So what Porsche did for this is it made a

really tiny flywheel and they wanted to mount the engine lower. And so that meant with the flywheel,

I want to say it's like six or eight inches. Like it's really small. It's like a racing flywheel.

That meant that the surface area for the clutch, because the clutch basically frictions against

the flywheel was pretty small. So the way that they do that is they do a multiple plate clutch.

And I'm hoping if I'm getting off in the weeds, you got to tell me what that means. It's a racing

clutch, hard to engage. There's a way to do it on these things where you just don't give it any gas,

you let the clutch out and eventually catch. But there's a big learning curve. I was on this car

on the launch and we all stole them. We all wrote about it and we all said, how are you going to

get out and like, you know, you're trying to turn left and there's all these cars, you're going to

drive this thing? Heck no. I've heard drivers say they get used to it and everything's fine.

And it's one of the things that the juice is worth it because this engine sounds

insanely, I mean, it is one of the best sounding engines ever. And it revs so freely because it

has no flywheel weight. But that is the downside. So I mean, I feel a little bad for you, Brian,

but at least you got to drive one. Hey, I'm redeemed because there's still people that

remember that and they still remember. Hey, remember when you stole that car from me?

So yeah, anyway, that's my story on the Courier GT and I knew you were talking about the launch.

I've only driven one unfortunately at like highway speeds, but have you had one on the track?

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. It was like we were, I mean, there's pictures of me sliding it sideways.

I'm driving at the limit and I think they're fantastic cars. I got a reputation for being

particularly evil. And basically a lot of these cars that are high performance cars with, they

have a inertia, which means all the weight is centralized mid-engine cars, NSX, Courier GTs,

a lot have the similar things. Once they start to rotate, meaning if they fishtail a little bit,

they tend to what they call they snap, they go quick. And so unless you're used to something

like that and you can correct the slide before it gets out of hand, it makes it really challenging.

And this is not special to the Courier GT, but the thing you have to remember is you get in

these cars that have 5,600 horsepower, which is like, it's like table stakes these days.

It's incredible how fast these cars go. And you get people that get in them and it's their first

experience to the track and the car gets ahead of them. It's like, well, duh, what did I learn

in Miata's? That's what I started racing 110 horsepower. Go-karts, Miata's. And that's what I

always tell people, but they don't want them. They're like, nope, I want the big dog. Like, okay,

good luck. I could still bite you. Yeah. Yeah. And the Courier GT doesn't have a lot of like

traction control. I believe it actually has it. You can grab me if I'm wrong on that.

Yeah, you get traction control, but you kind of want to, the early systems were so intrusive.

You feel them all the time. So you ended up shutting them off.

Yeah. So, well, I'm glad I brought it up because now I feel better and I can sleep better at night

knowing these are hard to drive. Yeah, hard to drive. Yeah. Well, that was a really fun

zoom in on a couple of those really specific models on our bull market lists. And as we're

kind of getting towards the end of our time together in today's conversation, I kind of want

to expand us back out a little bit more broadly on the list itself. And even if we were to think

the bull market list over the last couple of years, I'm curious, like, if you could think about,

you know, are there patterns that we're seeing? And I know we've talked about the younger

collectors and like the newer vehicles coming online, but just any other types of insights

or patterns that you're seeing that could help arm agents with just a good understanding.

Yeah. I mean, the seventies are a very vibrant decade, right? The seventies and eighties are

still hot decades. We're appreciation. If you're smart with your older car, it's a great place to

park money, right? I mean, they're not really, they don't really lose. It is an astonishingly

store of value. It's not like the money goes away. You're just putting it somewhere.

Okay, I get it. It's not appreciating like your 401k or whatever, but it's not like the money is

going away. Muscle cars are huge. They're huge. I mean, in all errors, if they've been around

forever, they built half a million Mustangs that first year in 1965, but still people love those

early muscle cars and beyond. So that's a very vibrant thing, which really need to keep your eye

out for our early Japanese cars. As you guys have probably said a million times, as the Gen X gets

into their era where they're really have some disposable income, their kids are out of the

house, they paid for colleges, and they started looking around at cars to buy, just natural as

humans, we covet what we grew up with. And that means almost any Japanese car from the 70s,

80s, 90s is collectible. That's a really great one, Larry. If we could hover on that one for a

minute, I was surprised too. And these are things that again, if you're an agent that is working

and seeing lots of cars every day, if you see Honda, Acura, Nissan, Toyota, these are not cars

that necessarily immediately make you think collector or special. But you mentioned that

Honda type R before, and there are some other types of vehicles within those, you know, manufacturers

or those marks that are also collectible from those 80s and 90s. And so yeah, just those,

I don't know if that's exactly what you meant by early Japanese.

And it starts with a one is probably a special car in the year, I would say a thousand percent.

Like if someone showed up with a 1990 Honda Accord or a Toyota Camry,

that's going to be a coveted car. I can guarantee it. Somebody's out there loving that thing,

even though it was just a regular family car. Same thing with like early minivans, early,

you know, family cars like Jeep Cherokees and SUVs, they're special.

I think, you know, really fast, I have to interject, Larry could not be right. Like I go

from driving my brand new car that's got heated seats, Bluetooth up to, you know what, cameras

everywhere. And my Trans Am is not that old. It's a 97. It has nothing. It has nothing. And so

you're right. If you were doing one of these cars and it's loud and it smells like gasoline,

like crazy, which I would love. That's why I love that car. But if you're driving a 90s car,

it's not because it's, you know, convenient. It's not a daily driver. Exactly. You'd like it.

And the thing is your Trans Am, it doesn't like, this is, you've really illustrated the point,

because the difference in the fuel of a car has diminished year over year. You don't consider that

a classic car. It's almost 30 years old, Brian. Exactly. And think about in 1995, a 30 year old

car was a 65 Mustang and it feels like an antique in 1995, where your Firebird, your Trans Am today

does not feel like an antique. Good point. I'm glad you brought that up. You're right. It's a very

good. I think we forget. And, you know, there's a whole bunch of those cars, you know, there's,

I'm sure you guys talk about anything in the manual transmission. It's a gimmie. Nobody's driving

that every day or probably not, you know, anything, you know, there's probably brands,

Porsche, this or that, but yeah, anything with a one in the beginning of the year.

I don't think people are driving that for fun for daily. I love that framing. It's so simple and

clear too. And you're absolutely right. It's like in almost every case, yeah, your customer's probably

not driving a car from before 2000 as a daily driver. It's probably something special, something

extra beyond those fantastic points you just made. So I'm going to kind of put you on the spot to

come up with one more and BK, if you've got more questions, throw them at it. But here's what I've

got. If you could leave agents with just one more takeaway from the bull market list, you know,

what would it be in terms of, you know, how they could think about things differently or how they

could serve their clients better? John, you and I have worked on this in a lot of different ways.

And I think for agents to connect with the community, there's no better way than to do it via

cars. And it just always felt like such a big opening to other things because they're passionate

folks. They're welcoming folks. You have the least bit of interest in it. And you have a client that

loves cars. Just tell them, Hey, what is the cars and coffee this week? Can I go and just poke around?

You know, there is an astonishingly amount of people with more than one car and a lot of other

toys and things to begin with. It shocks me day in and day out and as a way in and as exposure

to different things, I can't think of a better way than cars. Yeah, I think you nailed it, Larry.

It's, you know, the local community sponsoring the Little League, all that thing. You should put

the car, you know, enthusiasts, like the cars and coffee, the local cars. You should put that into

your marketing, sponsor the Little League team, do the local car show. You're going to be a fabric

of the community and get those clients. So I can't agree more. And it's growing these cars and coffee,

which are basically informal meetups on weekend mornings. They're supposed to be for about a

couple hours. They are so popular now that somebody starts one, they almost always get too big for

the parking lots they picked, and they have to move somewhere else. So the amount of automotive

enthusiasm and in the last 10 years has just gone off the charts. It's huge. And that's a great

point on the live events too. And I think that's a kind of in parallel with with broader trends

around live events and experiences. People are craving those. They want to step outside of

emails and automations and the digital and virtual space. And they want to connect with real people

in real life and talk about and share things that they're passionate about. And that is an

absolutely great place to insert yourself and be part of that community building.

So I've been serving this audience for 40 years, right? So, you know, you do a ton of surveys,

you do a ton of research. Now that we have digital tools and information, so we sort of

understand what people like, what people don't. One of the conclusions I've come up with is like,

this is not an audience and necessarily caused their buddies for coffee. This isn't a mechanically

minded audience that sort of connects over an object. And it just is, you call it whatever you

want. We're on the spectrum. We're on the this. I don't know. But it's just the way it is. And

that's why I think there's always that human desire for connection. And I think that's why these cars

and coffees are getting so big, because it's a low commitment way to do it that doesn't feel like

this formal thing. There's something to that that I haven't perfectly connected with. But that's,

I know in my own community, the number of people that organize things to get together,

it's like less than 5% do it, our community organizers. So I feel like this is one of those

things that sort of really helps that. Yeah, that lands with me, Larry. I couldn't agree more.

Yeah, I think you're right. There's some sort of bug. There's some sort of thing.

You've seen the same car. Why do you go to cars and coffees? You've seen the same cars,

we still go every Saturday. So yeah, you're on to something.

Larry, thank you again for being here with us today and spending all this time with us and

sharing your experience. And we are just so thrilled that you're able to join us and share

today. So just a big thank you from me and from Bryant. Oh gosh, thanks for having me. It's so

fun to chit chat cars and I hope the audience gets out there and gets to Hagerty and looks at all

the stuff and services we provide to serve this community of drivers. We love them.

All right, that was a blast. A huge thanks to Larry Webster for coming on and getting

weird with us in the best way possible. And agents, this episode was really about one thing,

using the bull market list as a tool, not trivia. Exactly. The bull market list is a window into

what's happening in the hobby and therefore what's going to be showing up in your clients' garages.

So your takeaways are simple. First, this isn't car investing. It's buy something you love,

protect it the right way and don't get caught with the wrong coverage when values and repair

realities don't match a standard policy. Yeah. Second, the hobby is expanding.

More 90s and 2000 vehicles are enthusiast cars now than ever before. And a lot of them don't

look collectible on paper. So listen for the signals. They're talking about their car, sharing a story,

has a manual transmission, onlys weekend usage is added or deleted in the shoulder months in

winter or the summer. And I've wanted this since high school energy. It's not a daily driver or a

normal car. And as Larry said, if the model year starts with a one as in 1900, it's probably a

good fit for Hagerty. That's right. And number three, the third takeaway, the claims day matters.

We know that you know this as agents and it's even more important for special vehicle and

special coverage. Guaranteed value takes a big fight off the table and provides clients peace of

mind come claim time. Plus options like chair salvage where enthusiasts can keep their cars

and their guaranteed value after a total loss. That's the kind of nuance enthusiasts care about

because they really care about the car. So here's a challenge this week. Use the bull market list.

Go to our website. Larry gave you all of it. We'll have the show notes. Look at the vehicles,

find one of find a client you have maybe two has one of those cars. It's not a sales pitch.

Just check in and say, Hey, I saw something that reminded me of your car. Have you heard the Hagerty

bull market list? Are you still enjoying that car? What else do you get in your garage? What kind of

other hobbies you into? You're going to get a conversation. That's how this community works.

Trust me, it will be worth the time. That's right. As we chatted about with Larry, car people love

talking about their cars. And if you want to plug into the community even more, go to a cars and

coffee event. It's low commitment, but high upside. It's where the conversations start. And don't

forget you can get much more bull market list insights on Hagerty.com slash media. So thanks

for listening to this episode of the accelerator, the first episode for season two. If you found

this episode helpful, please share with a colleague, a friend, or another agent who has a car, people

in their life. And we will see you next time. Never stop driving.

Hagerty Bull Market List Explained: What Cars Are Becoming Collectible with Larry Webster

About this episode

Chevrolet Trans Am

Request an Explanation

Want to learn more?

Help improve this episode

More from The Accelerator by Hagerty