Is this British EV startup going to change the game? #276

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Welcome back to the intercooler podcast, everybody.

The car podcast powered by car finance specialist JBR Capital.

This is episode 276 with Dan Prosser and Andrew Frankel.

I've got a whole list of things here, Andrew, that I want to talk about today.

But first of all, we have a new desk prop.

We do.

And that's not very helpful for those of you.

And it's the vast majority of people who are just listening to this.

Yes.

But if you're watching on YouTube, you'll see that there's a model engine in front of us.

Andrew seems very proud of it.

Well, yes, because guess who built the model?

Was it you?

It was me.

All by myself.

It's a Christmas present from my brother.

And what a fine Christmas present it was.

A great gift.

Yes.

It's a flat engine.

It seems to have six cylinders.

Funny that.

And I think I can see the word Porsche on the side.

Yes.

And it seems to have a big fan.

Very distinctive, isn't it?

So, but it's a working model, isn't it?

It's a completely working model.

If you press the button, it's...

Oh, blimey.

Oh, hang on.

Press it again and you'll get the engine sounds.

This really is not great for the offer.

People just won't listen to this on their telephone or whatever.

But that's good.

But yeah, it's a completely...

Well, it's completely...

All the bits that are in a 911 engine are rendered there in plastic.

Yeah.

But if you want to know how such an engine goes together

and all the bits that it contains, that's what it's got.

It's got everything.

It's got crankshaft, pistons, conrods, valves, camshafts.

It's all in there.

Spark little spark plugs with little lights at the end

which light up in the correct firing order.

That's great.

So, you learn how an engine goes together

and how it works as a clear Porsche engine.

Yes.

And it took me a fairly intensive weekend to do it.

And at the end of it, you get to press a button.

And to your utter astonishment, you see pistons start to move.

It works.

And valves start to open and close.

And little lights come up on the end of...

I didn't believe for a moment it would work.

It's a great looking car.

Or it would just eat itself or something.

But because I am a total mechanical incompetent.

But it works.

Which just goes to show how good the instructions must be.

I really do like the idea of assembling something.

And getting a genuine impression,

an idea of how it goes together and how it functions.

I think that's really cool.

So my next step, and I may have to wait until I retire to do this,

I want to do it with a proper engine.

You can get these...

I don't know if you've ever been to sort of country shows.

You get these static engines.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

These sort of single cylinder things

which are designed to sort of run a boss or in a field somewhere.

Which means basically it's an engine

which can just run all by itself.

It doesn't have to be in anything.

And they are, I think, the simplest engines that exist

because they've only got one of everything.

Yeah.

And so I want to build that.

I really want to build a functioning.

I mean, so many of my mates could build a V12 one.

I couldn't even begin to do that.

No, no, no, no.

But I just like to build something

which rather than just sort of pretending to work

actually does work.

That would be cool.

And this is an official Porsche thing, isn't it?

This is an official Porsche product.

Yeah, if you just go on to...

But if you just put Porsche flat six model engine,

it'll come up.

But it is a Porsche thing.

Probably explains why the structures are so good.

And I think they're about 137 pounds.

So they're not cheap, but you know,

it's the cheapest flat six you'll ever buy.

It is, isn't it?

You'll ever buy, yeah.

And I can well imagine it's a happy weekend

just sort of engrossed in this thing

and not think about anything else.

Yeah.

Maybe there's something on in the background.

I mean, it does turn a crankshaft.

So it will have a power and a torque output.

Ooh.

How do we measure that?

Well, I'm not sure there's a dyno in the country

which is small enough to take it.

I bet someone knows.

Yeah.

Yeah, if you know, if that's you, let us know.

Get in touch.

Right, onward.

So do you know what?

I think the day that this episode goes out,

we will publish our 100th audio article.

We can't have done a hundred.

It's a hundred.

Seriously.

Isn't that amazing?

Blimey.

It is amazing actually.

Yeah.

So for those who are not subscribers

to the website now, what are you talking about?

So, when was it?

Back in April, we started making

every article that we publish

on the Included Apple website available in audio form.

Yes.

So you can listen on the website and app if you want to

or better still through your favorite podcast app.

So if you use Spotify or Apple podcast

or whatever to listen to this podcast

and all your other podcasts,

you can listen to our articles on there as well.

And people get in touch quite often

to say it's just become part of their routine.

They'll be out with the dog.

They'll be driving the car

or I don't know doing jobs around the house

or something.

But also, you know, a surprising number of people

and I'd love to say that we planned it this way

but if I'm not completely honest, we didn't

and we probably should have done

but the number of people who have come up to me

and said I'm dyslexic

and I really struggled to physically read words.

And the audio articles have been a complete godsend

for somebody who's visually impaired

got in touch, didn't they?

Wow. Yeah.

And said how much they appreciated the audio articles.

So, yeah, we're gonna keep doing it.

And they are, typically they'll be read by one of us.

Often they're read by the author themselves.

And I think there, lots of people have been in touch

to say they really enjoy it.

So if you haven't checked them out,

perhaps now is the time to do so.

I think 100 articles is probably 15 or 16 hours

worth of audio.

And I realized that if you take-

That's quite a long dog walk, isn't it?

It's a long old dog walk.

It's a big commute, isn't it?

And I realized if you take this podcast

and which is available ad-free to subscribers,

if you take our midweek show, Ask The Intercooler.

Yeah, which we've already done 16, 17 episodes of.

Yeah, only available to subscribers.

You take our audio articles.

I reckon we're producing 10 or 12 hours

of hopefully really good, enjoyable audio a month.

And so, you know, if you've got a reasonable commute

and you do most days, we could be right there with you.

We'd be there all the time.

You get sick of the side of us.

All the sound of us, even.

Exactly.

So I don't, you know, no one else is doing something like this.

So hopefully it's quite innovative

and people seem to enjoy it.

So if you aren't yet subscribed,

there'll be a link in the description

or just head to the-intercooler.com

and better still use the coupon code POD20 at checkout.

And if you choose an annual sub,

you'll get 20% off for the first year.

I should also mention we are in partnership

with Supernatural Car Care and Andrew now,

if you're watching-

Modeling, if anybody, again is watching this on YouTube.

That camera over there.

That one.

Okay, here we go.

I don't think I've ever modelled anything before in my life,

but here we go.

It's always the first time for everything.

What a wonderful job.

Well done.

Thank you.

Do you think I'll miss my vocation?

Yeah.

No.

So we are now in partnership with Supernatural Car Care.

And I mention this because every single month

we give away a Supernatural Car Care kit

worth 125 quid to a subscriber.

So not just this, an entire kit.

An entire kit full of bits and pieces.

So there you go.

Another reason to subscribe as if there weren't enough already.

Just on the doing things that people haven't done before.

Yeah.

I mean, it's why we started, isn't it?

It's why we kicked off as an Instagram site,

doing journalism on Instagram.

It had never been done.

Car Journalists have never been done on Instagram before.

And then we thought we would do a website and an app

that was subscriber only doing high quality journalism.

Ad-free.

Without advertisements on the internet.

That's never been done before.

There's nobody voicing their stories

about I'm a wealth in the way that we are

or doing subscriber only podcasts.

And if you've been around a bit as I have in this business

just being able to do something different and new

from my point of view is just fantastic.

And then of course you get the response

from the people who see it or hear it

or watch it or whatever.

And that's even better because everybody likes

having what they do appreciated.

And overwhelmingly, thank goodness people do.

So yeah, as I said, we're just gonna keep on plugging

and we will just keep on thinking of things

that other people haven't thought of doing

and if we think they're worth doing, we'll do.

Yeah.

I mean, if anyone's got any great ideas

for how we can continue to innovate in this space,

let us know.

I want to talk about Longbow.

Do you remember Longbow?

I do remember Longbow.

Yes.

British EV startup.

So they...

Oh, not the Battle of Cressy.

You were there.

At the Battle of Cressy?

Yeah.

1337?

No, not quite that old.

But at the Battle of Cressy,

I'm probably completely wrong with this.

It might have been an Agincourt Poitiers

or somewhere like that.

But basically, we hired a bunch of Genoese bowmen

who had Longbows.

And because you could fire a Longbow so quickly

as opposed to a crossbow, which each bolt had to be loaded,

we duffed up the French

and helped win that portion of the Hundred Years War.

Yes.

Which we kind of lost overall,

but people never mentioned that.

And the rest is history.

Yes.

So Longbow was, I think it was earlier this year

that they sort of announced themselves unto the world

as a British EV sports car startup

with two gorgeous looking cars,

the Speedster and the Roadster.

And they, goodness me, if they deliver on this,

it will be quite something.

But these cars, they look great.

They're both sub 1,000 kilograms.

The Speedster, which doesn't have a screen

is sub 900 kilograms.

They're both about three and a half seconds to 62.

So quick 280 miles range claimed from 65,000 pounds.

And they've recruited some big hitters, haven't they?

So the point I was gonna make is that,

I'm sure the people behind Longbow,

the founders are very experienced, very capable people.

I hadn't heard of them before.

What they've done now is signed up these heavy hitters

onto their advisory board.

And all of a sudden the whole thing

feels more credible and more real, doesn't it?

So they've got Mike Fluitt,

ex-McClaren Automotive CEO.

They've got Michael van der Sander,

who was the MD at Alpine when they relaunched a few years ago.

And they did the A110.

When they did the A110,

I spent a bit of time with Michael.

He's a good guy, isn't he?

He's a great guy.

Yeah, a proper car guy, too.

Absolutely.

And since then he was head of-

He's also the reason we fit in A110s,

because he's really tall.

He's tall, and so an A110 had to fit him.

He was more recently head of JLR's SVO division.

So a vastly experienced guy.

A real enthusiast.

And Dan Baalmer as well, ex-Aston Martin and Lighter.

So almost out of nowhere,

Longbow suddenly seems like this massively credible proposition.

They're aiming to deliver their first cars next year.

Can I...

I don't kind of...

This is obviously, you know, a fantastically brave

and seems to be well thought out

and apparently now well resourced

certainly in terms of manpower operation.

But...

Do you not just worry about the whole EV thing

in a sports car format?

I do.

I just really want to try one.

I'm open-minded enough to think

it might be really fun to drive.

Take a look if it's really light.

Yeah.

So how do they get it that light

but still have a decent range?

I don't know.

Because you think, okay, well it's light,

then it will have decent range

because there's less of it's lug about,

but of course the only,

the rhythm principle reason it will be light

is because it'll have a small battery, I guess.

This is exactly the thing, right?

And all the, and there haven't been many,

but all the attempts at EV sports cars so far,

the MG...

Cypherster.

Yeah, exactly.

It's a heavy old thing, isn't it?

Massively heavy and disappointing.

And so perhaps it did need someone else

to come along and just totally rethink this and go,

we don't need to do it that way.

This is how we're going to do it.

But even so, 900 kilograms for an EV sports car

with a decent range.

Yeah, I mean, we have said this,

and we've said it on this, can't remember how long ago,

we have said it on this podcast,

actually those sorts of cars,

we talked about an electric catering before,

because they don't do huge miles.

And they can have small batteries

which will recharge very quickly

because there's not much to recharge.

And if you're just going to track days

and that sort of thing,

once the tracks get themselves sorted out

and there's charging in the paddock

and that sort of thing,

then actually I can see it working more for a car like that.

Also because of, you know,

all the benefits that electric motors have

in terms of where the torque is developed,

what you can do with the torque,

how you can control torque across the axles,

how playful you can make a car in theory.

You know, there is a big downside clearly

in that you don't have an internal combustion engine

or a gearbox unless you do the Hyundai thing

and simulate them.

Simulate them.

But I can actually see a clearer path

through to commercial success with those sorts of cars

than I can for, you know, more mainstream stuff

where range is an issue

and yet people still don't want to be, you know,

dragging two tons of car around in a 2C open format.

Yeah.

I just want to drive one

because perhaps it's really good fun.

Perhaps they've done such a good job

that it's really good fun.

But I think you're right.

I mean, lots of people listening to this

will think, what's the point?

If I'm buying a lightweight sports car.

Well, I've not got a catering.

Yeah, they'll be thinking I want an engine in it

because it's a recreation and that's part of the fun.

I think there'll be others thinking,

I'm quite interested in this.

And I'd love to know if you're out there,

if you're listening to this thinking,

yeah, I'm on board with this Longbow project.

Get in touch.

I'd really love to hear it.

I think it's one of those things

that the initial reception will be so crucial.

So, you know, not that it's my place

to give advice to these people,

but if it were, I would say,

for goodness sake, delay it for as long as you need to delay it.

Just make sure it's right

because that initial reception,

when it gets on, okay, there isn't a top gear

at the moment, but when it gets in the mags

and on the websites and out there.

It has to be spot on, doesn't it?

The opinion formers, their view of it

because I think that people will take their lead

from them because there hasn't been anything

like it before, there's nothing you can compare it to.

And if we all say, oh my goodness,

you need to take this seriously,

then I think there's a chance

that at least some people will.

Whereas if we come out and go, well, nice try guys,

but, you know, have you thought about putting

an internal combustion engine in?

I suspect that'll kill it.

You're right.

They need to get it right from the off.

And also not let it creep,

not let those weight figures creep and the price creep

because frankly, sitting here right now,

I actually can't believe they can deliver

on all those promises.

If they have.

But I can't wait to be proven right.

They've published a three digit weight figure.

Is that dry, do we know?

They haven't said.

Okay, so it'll be dry.

Yeah, but it's not like there's a hundred kilos

of fluid in a unit, is there?

No, that's a very good point.

But the thing is it's three figures, isn't it?

So, if it was like a 1080 car and it went to 1120,

well, people wouldn't notice that much.

But if it goes from three figures to four figures,

then I think that is a credibility problem.

So they've got to get it to market.

Even if it's dry, even if it's with titanium wheel nuts

and all the lightest options,

it's got to come to market with three figures now.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'd love to drive it.

These cars.

I want it to work.

Yeah, these cars are developed and built in the UK

or they will be.

If there's anyone listening from Longbow, open invitation.

Come on.

Come and talk to us.

Let us know all about how you're doing this.

Yeah, and answer those questions.

We will say to you, what do you say to people

who go, I've had a catering for the last 25 years,

why would I change now?

Yeah, that'd be brilliant.

The other thing I suppose is that we do now know

that it looks like there'll be an exemption

from the 2035 ice ban for very low volume cars,

sub 1,000 units, presumably Longbow will be a sub 1,000 units.

So should they have just gone petrol?

I don't know.

Well, I mean, I think that's one of those things

that's brilliant to say with hindsight,

but I suspect at the time their business plan was made,

that decision hadn't been taken.

And probably what they wanted to do

was demonstrate that you really could make

a credible, enjoyable EV sports car.

That's probably the whole point of this.

But also with something that is small and as simple as that,

my guess is it would be an awful lot easier

to retro engineer an ice powertrain into it

than it would be for something like a Porsche Boxster.

Yeah, yeah, I'd love to know more.

I'd love to know more about Longbow, so get in touch.

Please.

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I want to,

do you know, I haven't even raised this with you yet,

but I think we should just very briefly mention Jason Plato.

Oh, okay.

Right, it's a little bit early for us to announce this

because we're still finalizing a lot of the details.

But we appear to be announcing something.

We do, don't we?

Well, you are.

September 18th, we've got our next live podcast.

There are a few loose ends that need to be tied up and so on,

but because it's...

It's going to be very exclusive.

And because we don't have a lot of runway between now and then,

I want to mention it nice and early.

But because we're working with Renault

and Jason Plato to put on what we think

is going to be a really good live podcast evening,

it's going to be in Battersea in London.

In Battersea Power Station, very less.

And Renault are bringing along the Renault 5 Turbo 3E.

Nutcase.

Ludacris, EV.

They've sold out the entire first tranche of that.

Have they?

Yeah, so people who say...

Just like us.

People like us who really cast out over EV sports car.

Here's one costing £150,000.

It's gone.

And I think they're going to be two tranches.

I maybe get this completely wrong.

I think the first was a thousand units

and the second one's going to be like 700.

The thousand have already gone.

Ah, brilliant.

Yeah.

Fabulous.

And they're going to bring that car along

so we all get to have a proper good look at it.

Yeah.

We get to talk to Jason Plato.

Here is Old War Stories.

Yeah.

So Jason, whose career was basically...

He came to public attention through racing for Renault

where they were winning the Sport Spider Championship

or racing into the BTCC with Williams,

Williams-Renault.

In Lagunas.

In Lagunas, exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah, because I mean, Jason, I can say this

because he's younger than me, but he's been around a bit.

Yeah.

He's been around a while.

He's a great storyteller.

And it's not just going to be Renault.

We'll, you know, we'll talk quite a lot about that

and we'll ask him what he thinks of the Renault 5 Turbo 3E.

And then we'll talk about lots of other stuff as well.

We will. We will.

Now, we don't know how many tickets are going to be available.

It won't be many.

It'll be a two-figure number.

Yeah, we don't know what the ticket price is going to be,

but there will be drinks and nibbles.

But it's going to be a very, very exclusive event.

And it'll be in the evening at September the 18th.

It will.

It will after work.

After work.

And first refusal will go to existing TI subscribers.

Yeah.

People who subscribe to the website and app.

It's only fair.

And we'll see how many are left after they've all had their fill.

But we don't have any more details,

any more specifics at the moment.

But as soon as we do, as soon as we're ready to officially announce it,

we'll put a story on the website and app

so that subscribers can have first-cracket tickets.

Yeah.

And we won't just be recording the podcast with Jason.

There will be a decent Q&A after it.

So if you ever wanted to ask Jason to play it,

just how close he came to being twatted by Matt Neal.

That's your chance.

It is.

Wonderful.

So subscribers, hopefully in the next, I don't know, week or so,

look out for some news from us on that.

It promises to be a really, really enjoyable event.

I've been knocking about in the latest Audi RS3.

You saw it earlier.

Well, you couldn't miss it, could you?

You couldn't.

What do they call that?

Oh, I did check earlier, but I can't remember.

Something green.

But it's one of the free color options on that car.

You don't have to pay extra for it.

Because people already recognize quite sense of it

and they wouldn't actually pay money for it.

It's very, very lurid sort of line green.

I mean, even someone who is as profoundly colorblind as me,

you ain't going to miss it.

So it's a really interesting car, that RS3.

It shouldn't exist anymore.

It should be dead.

But Euro 7, the emissions regulations got pushed out.

And so the RS3 had a stay of execution a couple more years.

And it's the only five-cylinder car on sale today.

So it remains on sale for a bit longer.

But once this car's gone, no more five-cylinder cars.

Potentially ever.

Well, it's hard to see someone thinking,

I'm going to either design a brand new five-cylinder engine

or dig one up from the dim-distant past.

So that's another one that's gone.

Soon, yeah.

But it's great that you can now still buy

fives in the Dakar.

But it's 62 grand basic.

You know, if you really, really want an RS3,

maybe you're prepared to pay 62 grand.

That's the way with these things, isn't it?

If you think of things like, I can't remember

what the price is, but something like a Type R Civic.

50 grand.

And these things are, they are so expensive.

Can we just do a little bit on the five-cylinder engine?

Please.

I'm not sure that Audi's were the first.

I got a sneaky suspicion that Mercedes

had a diesel five-cylinder before that.

I might be wrong.

So five-cylinder, there's the Audi five-cylinder engine.

And they've been,

I can remember the original ad campaigns

where they had a sort of a balance

with three silver balls on one side

and two on the other,

and it was still saying it's a perfect balance.

I'm not quite sure how they'd,

I presume they did it with balance shafts or whatever,

but in sort of harmonics,

a five-cylinder engine shouldn't be possible.

I think a seven-cylinder engine isn't possible

because no one's ever done one.

And I'm sure someone would have done one

if it was possible because they'd done

a one, two, three, four, five, six, eight, 10, 12,

but they've never done a seven.

Yeah.

Not the other odds.

No.

Someone more intelligent and well-personally

could be able to tell us why they couldn't do that.

Anyway, and then obviously it went on most famously

in the Quattro and all the things that followed it.

So who else has done a five?

Volvo.

And because of Volvo Ford.

Because of Volvo Ford, yeah.

Mercedes.

Yeah.

I can think of one.

Go on.

Volkswagen.

Oh, in a narrow V.

In a V5 that you could get in a Golf and a Bora.

Yeah.

Presumably some other stuff.

Can't remember.

But yeah, I'd like to know a bit more

about the fundamentals of a five-cylinder engine.

Maybe that's one for David Tuig,

because he, actually, I meant to mention

when you were talking about your wonderful

flat-six engine that you built here

that Tuig is going to write a story for us

all about the flat-six and, you know,

the harmonics, how it's balanced.

This particular flat-six.

The flat-six in general.

Do you remember he wrote a piece

about the V12 in general?

Yeah.

He explained why it's such an emotive engine

from all of us.

Yeah, why it really gets into your ear.

Yeah.

There have been other flat-six.

Yeah, you're right.

Subaru.

Yeah.

The, goodness me, the Tucker.

The Tucker, well done.

I thought you were going to remember the Tucker,

the torpedo.

Yeah, who else?

Do the Russians do want to have

Tatra done a flat-six?

Oh, maybe.

Corvair, obviously.

Yeah.

The Chevrolet Corvair.

Quite a few, then.

Yeah.

So, yes.

We only tend to think of that one,

but we do.

Yeah.

So, Turg is writing a piece

about the basics of a flat-six.

I'm looking forward to that.

I think, yes.

Like combing down a flat-six aero engine might have done.

Do you know what?

I think I went up in,

well, I know I went up in an extra 300.

And I think that might be,

bear with, a flat-six.

We, sorry, well, we frantically Google it.

Someone did tell me that it's,

yeah, it's 300 horsepower.

Uh, I don't know.

Shall I just feel furiously?

Yeah, please do.

So, I drove to the studio

in my long-term Range Rover,

which I've been finding,

despite the fact that we're in the middle of Bristol,

and finding a parking space in the middle of Bristol

is really not the easiest thing to do

in an enormous Range Rover.

Are we there yet?

I was right about the extra 300 a flat-six.

Excellent.

There you go.

I'm not gonna have to finish once, is it?

Go on.

I just find that I'm actually,

I'm so, I find the Range Rover

so soothing and just so great for my,

is it my feng shui?

Don't know.

My inner calm.

Your zen.

My zen.

I'll just think to myself,

I'll just go drive the Range Rover

because I just like being in it

and I've waffed it in on electrons.

It'll do, it will do about 60 miles on electricity,

which is just enough to get me into town and back again.

So the crankshaft won't turn.

And I'm loving it.

And you're gonna borrow it.

Yeah.

Which you absolutely should.

And I'll look forward to seeing what you think.

Anyway.

So back to this RS3.

Yeah.

It's quite, it's an interesting car, the RS3.

10 years ago, it was quite an underwhelming machine really.

You know, it had that really

characterful five-pot engine, fast,

but very sort of wooden, damping,

mutes, numb, steering, very nose-heavy balance.

Not really that enjoyable to drive at the limit.

Which at the time, I was gonna be so,

I was gonna be so sarky then, but I won't.

But the point is, is that, you know,

it was one of a number of performance Audis,

which had followed in a very similar vein.

That sort of very flat-footed, nose-heavy thing

was typically Audi.

Very safe.

For a long time.

Very stable.

They're beyond that now.

And they have been for a while, actually.

I remember there was a 2017 update on the RS3

and that was better.

And then there was a 2021 version

and that was far better.

And now there's this one and it's good.

It's not perfect.

It's not brilliant, but it is good.

And there's some quite interesting things about it.

It's got this torque splitter in the rear axle

rather than a conventional differential.

And the 2021 car introduced this.

And the Golf R has the same thing.

It's a clutch pack system

that can send all of the available torque

to one rear wheel.

So, and that's half of the total engine torque.

Yeah, so close to a couple hundred pound-foot

to the left or right rear wheel.

Which is why it feels quite positive now

when you stand on the power away from a corner.

Also, if you've got the space,

you know, big open car park or something,

it will do stupid, drifty thing, stuff everywhere.

Which is neither here nor there really,

but it's that sort of positivity

that you feel away from a corner

that makes it feel good.

But it's also got this neutral balance

on the way into a corner.

It used to be that you would turn into a bend

in one of these cars

and just sort of feel it wash, push out.

It doesn't do that anymore.

It really pivots.

And it steers quite nicely.

This one doesn't have adaptive dampers.

If you want those, you need the top spec one,

which is 70 grand.

And you can tell they've worked really, really hard

to tune these passive dampers.

And there are moments where it feels lovely.

And I don't just mean on a super smooth road,

but the road could be a bit uneven, a bit bumpy,

but it seems a particular sort of uneven and bumpy.

And your road speed needs to be right.

And then it feels lovely.

But then you'll turn a corner

that feels very wooden, very brittle again.

So those passive dampers have a very sort of

narrow operating range outside of it.

It's just, it's not great.

So the question in need of an answer is,

and I've not, I've literally only seen the car

this morning.

I haven't sat in, but I will get it in.

That or an AMG A45S?

Or do we need to get the two together to find out?

Well, I did this in 2021 when the RS3 was new.

Well, I actually preferred the Audi.

The A45 is a bit of a headbanger.

I do like it though.

It is good when you really get up it

and the road's right.

And it is, it's a live wire.

And you just drove it all thinking yourself,

I can't believe this is only two litres doing this.

Because it's two litres with no hybrid attached to it.

It's a rampant engine, isn't it?

Absolutely nuts.

But I remember testing them back to back four years ago.

And the RS3 back then did have adaptive dampers

and the ride was better and quite nice, comfortable.

And so I preferred the Audi then all round as an all rounder.

But actually I would have a,

I'd save 10, 12 grand and have a Golf R now.

Yeah, yeah.

Even given the well documented limitations

of the most recent generations of Golf

but the 8.5 is much nicer now, isn't it?

I've really liked the 8.5.

Do you know what, it's really funny, right?

Five or something years ago when the 8 was new,

I drove a Golf R and liked it.

A couple of years later, I drove,

there was an anniversary edition with a bit more power

and it was really wooden and flat-footed

and not very enjoyable to drive.

I wondered what on earth had gone wrong.

And then I drove the 8.5 last year.

And it was much better again.

Of course, Mojo back.

But not quite back to 7.5 levels yet.

It's just a bit different.

It's actually, because it's got this torque splitter thing,

it's more of a wild ride, you know?

But it doesn't have that sort of crisp feel

that the 7.5 did, which I did enjoy.

But I really like this new one.

It does sound to me like we need to get the Golf,

the Mercedes and the Audi on a road together.

Do you think? I do.

That'd be quite good fun, wouldn't it?

What's this space and what's that at?

Absolutely.

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Well, talking of which,

I want to tease our next big group test.

Oh, I don't know which one you're looking at.

No, I know. Do you?

Yeah.

Okay.

Am I allowed to?

Well, have we scheduled it yet?

We haven't, but no one's going to beat us to it now, are they?

Well, I don't know.

Well, actually, I don't think they can actually

because, well, I think, I'm sure they could,

but they might struggle a bit.

Am I allowed to say?

Yeah.

So we did.

But you know what that means, though?

The moment you announce it,

it means I'm going to have to write it?

Well, you probably should.

I probably should, shouldn't I?

Because then we can schedule it.

Yeah.

Okay.

We've been wanting to do this for a little while,

haven't we?

Get the three great water cooled 911s together.

Yeah.

That is from the 997, the 991 and the current 992.

Yeah, so that's the turbo, the Carrera S.

And the Targa.

Not this time.

We'll do that next.

It's the GT3 RS 4-Liter.

The 997 GT3 RS 4-Liter.

And the 911R from the 991 series

and the current 911 ST.

So these are the three very special,

strictly limited edition Porsche Motor Sport cars.

The Holy Trinity.

It is.

You hate that, don't you?

I hate that.

I hate it the first time I ever heard it

in reference to the LaFerrari and the P1 and the...

The Styx, though, doesn't it?

What was the other one?

918.

Oh, the 918 Spyder.

Yeah.

And I still hate it.

And it's not because I've got a religious bone in my body.

I just think it's a really stupid name.

But I've used it myself.

I know.

Because it's...

It's a shorthand, isn't it?

Because if you say it,

people know what you're talking about.

Yeah.

It's just a useful shorthand.

Yeah, but anyway, but...

Yeah, we have got those three.

We've done it.

We've shot it.

We have shot it.

We've driven them.

We know what we think.

Please don't tell me you're gonna tell them

what you think about the cars, too.

God, no.

Excellent.

But I just wanted to set the scene

and tease it and let people know that it's coming.

Yeah.

So the story will go live.

We don't know when,

but quite soon on the website and app,

the video will follow a little bit later.

I'm told by our videographer

that the video's coming together beautifully

and it should be a good one.

It's one of those days, wasn't it?

Where you were...

I mean, we're so lucky.

We go off and do all sorts of things all the time.

And I love doing that.

I remember we had a great time

just doing that Renault 5-feet panda shoot.

Because actually, there were cars

that we enjoyed being on.

We were on good roads

and it was just a sort of happy occasion.

But then you go and do something like this

and you're actually thinking to yourself,

this is quite special

because it hasn't been done before.

It's unlikely to be done again.

And it's us who's doing it

and there was a certain pride that goes with doing that.

More than anything else,

you just are aware of the great, great privilege

of just being in these cars.

And the other good thing about it

from a writer's point of view

is one of those stories.

Whatever motoring journalists say,

when they're about to go and do a group test

in their head,

I think they already know what the answer's gonna be.

I didn't have a clue with this one.

And it was really close.

I know what you think.

I haven't told you what I think.

No, you haven't.

Keep it to yourself.

But it was just one of those things

that there was just this sense of privilege

and thinking, wow, we're doing this.

And they are with, in my mind,

absolutely the three greatest modern 911s of them all.

And it's great that we've been able to do it.

And thank you so much to Porsche

for providing the ST the day before they de-fleeted it.

In fact, they kept it on the fleet for longer

so that we could do it.

So that car is now gone.

And also the bloke who provided the other two

without whom we wouldn't have a story

and we wouldn't have had a memory

to service for the rest of our lives.

So thank you.

I'm really looking forward to reading your story.

I'm proud that we got there first with that test.

Like we did with the three Ferraris,

the 599 GTO, the F12 TDF, and the 812 Competizione.

Competizione.

That was another one of those days, wasn't it?

Yeah, just brilliant.

And again, I wouldn't have bet a quid

that I had to come out of that thinking

the oldest and the slowest was the one

that I enjoyed driving the most.

But it was.

Because I'm not a huge 599 fan.

I much prefer an F12 to a 599.

But that GTO was exquisite.

If you don't know what we're talking about,

go onto the website and you can read the story now.

Yeah, and the video's on YouTube as well.

And the video's on YouTube.

So look out for that one.

Now finally then to wrap this week's episode up,

there is a 9-Eleven that I will talk about

and I'm not gonna go banging on about it

because we do talk about 9-Elevens a lot.

I do, I know.

Not nothing, my dear.

I think we should rebrand this.

It gets mentioned.

The flat six podcast.

Don't.

So a couple of weeks ago I spoke about

the latest updated Carrera S

that I spent a bit of time in.

And I said that it's become a very different sort of car.

And I think I annoyed a few people by saying this.

Good.

Yeah.

Or you could even never annoy anyone.

That means you're only saying, you know,

meanly mouth, flat, yeah.

It's become a very grown up car.

It's become the 9-Eleven for people

who don't particularly want a proper focus sports car.

In some regards.

Oh yes, you're talking about.

The S.

Okay, so I know what you're gonna talk about now.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The S.

Which is fine, we concluded, didn't we,

that Porsche's right to offer at least one model

that does that.

But my reason for voicing that was that

a lot of people will save up and finally go

and order their 9-Eleven that they've wanted

for years and years.

And they will probably assume that the Carrera S

is the sort of baseline 9-Eleven.

But it's really not now.

Yeah, and so if I can just interrupt.

I think the most important point is

and the reason that people might get misled

is that in the past, 9-Eleven,

normal 9-Eleven's have basically been

the same sort of car, but with different power outputs.

But they've all had the similar sort of characters,

whether you bought a Carrera or an S or a GTS.

What Porsche have now done and it's made life

much more interesting is each,

you buy a 9-Eleven now,

not just because of what you can afford,

but actually for the character of the car.

I mean, a GTS is so different to any other 9-Eleven now.

The S is so different in another way.

And I suspect the car you're about to talk about

is so differentiated from not just any of the 9-Eleven's,

but the car of the same name that it replaces.

So there's just much more choice,

but that means you've got to be much more careful

when you make that choice.

Yeah, you've got to do your research now.

And so the car that I have since driven

is the Carrera T.

Hated it?

Goodness me, no.

I adored that car.

It's one of those cars that immediately

just made me think, how am I gonna get together

114,000 pounds?

And I'm not is the answer, but I just want one.

I just really, really want one.

And it perfectly demonstrates the point

that I was trying to make about the Carrera S

because it's not a hardcore car, right?

It's not a totally uncompromising weekend only thing at all.

You could daily it just fine,

but it always feels special.

It always feels like a true thoroughbred sports car.

Even when you're just driving it normally,

you know you're in something special.

It's that impression that I just didn't get in the Carrera S.

But then when you do press on a bit,

it's just, it's fabulous to drive.

So why, what is it about this car?

So the bit that I find really difficult to explain

is why you feel in just normal use

that you're in a true sports car.

It's not just about the gears.

It's not just about the gear.

That's a big part of it.

So it does have this, it's not a new gearbox,

but it's new to the Carrera T at six speed

rather than the seven speed,

which is lovely, really nice transmission.

The only non-GT 911 you can buy with a manual gearbox

and you can't get a PDK for it.

That's how hard Porsche are trying

to differentiate them in 911s now.

You can't buy a two pedal T.

That's right.

You always could in the past.

So that's the point.

There's now clear separation

between these different variants,

which is probably the right way to do it.

And it's very clearly a very new

and very consciously taken decision by Porsche

to differentiate the car in this way.

It's very, very conscious.

And so this Carrera T,

the way you interact with the car,

the seating position, the steering,

the way it rides, it's the best riding 911,

better than the S by a margin.

And then when you get going,

it's a wonderful balance.

It's an interactive car.

So you feel what's going on.

It's not numb.

It's not distant.

It's got just under 400 horsepower,

three, eight, nine BHP.

So it's the standard engine, isn't it?

It is the standard engine.

It's not the S.

Did you miss the additional power?

Not for a minute.

400 is enough.

And it's got good, strong torque

because it's a twin turbo thing.

Yeah.

So it just feels right to the size of the car,

the weight of the car, the power.

You know, you can use all the power

and not feel like you're taking massive liberties.

I think it's got more torque low down

because it's blowing less boost.

Yeah.

So you've just got a flatter torque curve.

That's peaky.

It always feels quick.

It doesn't sound wonderful.

You know, I think the emission,

the sort of sound, the noise,

was it passed by noise regulations,

whatever they are, are so strict nowadays

that these manufacturers are finding it very, very hard

to get any sort of tune out of their latest engines,

which is a shame, but it doesn't sound bad.

Standard limited slip diff.

Yeah.

Which you don't get on an S.

Yeah.

Honestly.

It's just a 911 that's optimized for,

not people who want to go and break

the Nurburgring lap record at all,

because actually, because it's manual,

it's the slowest 911, isn't it?

Yeah.

It's like four and a half seconds to 60,

which is like old school 911.

But if you actually just love driving,

the business of driving,

how a car feels, how a car makes you feel

rather than anything to do with numbers,

it is clearly the one.

I loved it.

Yeah.

I really, really loved it.

And I, I don't know,

I just need to find a way to get myself back in one.

Have you considered subscribing

to the TI website now?

Everybody out there helped Dan finance his career at T.

If we can get-

He'd be awfully grateful.

If we can get 10 or 20,000 of you signed up

in the next couple of weeks.

I'll do it.

Maybe I can do it.

Yeah, so it's my favorite 911 right now,

and that's of the entire lineup.

And it's, you know,

I actually was disappointed in the Carrera S,

though I understand why it's gone the way it has.

But the T, more than made up for it.

I have been,

and in fact, sadly I can't go

because I promised my daughter

I'll take her away for a little break.

But we've been invited to the 911 Turbo launch.

Yes.

I don't even know,

and even if I did,

I'm sure I wouldn't be able to talk about

the turbo and what its power is,

or how fast it's gonna go,

or how much it's gonna cost.

But all the talk is of a twin turbo engine.

So the GTS hybrid is a single turbo.

Yeah.

Not that it has any turbo lag at all,

but this is gonna be a twin turbo thing.

And I think a normal Turbo S has,

or sorry, the first gen 992 Turbo S has 650 horsepower,

something like that.

Yeah.

This is gonna be with the seven, isn't it?

It's gonna be.

So it'll probably have,

thinking about it,

it won't be far off double the power of a Carrera T.

Blimey, yeah.

Getting on four.

Yeah.

It'll be, well, who knows,

but it'll be fantastically quick, won't it?

It will be astonishingly impressive.

And we'll all just go,

oh my goodness, that is incredible.

You can't prejudge these situations,

but it will be interesting.

It would be interesting to get a new turbo

and a T parked next to each other

at the start of a really decent road

and just see what set of keys you picked up.

Yeah.

Who knows, but that's not really what turbos are for.

Again, it's a 911 that does something else.

That's all, if you need to be in Vienna by some day.

Yeah.

That's when you need a turbo.

That's not the way that's not great.

Yeah.

That's when you need a turbo.

Anyway.

They all have their, more than ever,

their own sort of specific use cases, which is great.

I think it is great.

Yeah.

And this Carrera T,

so one of the curious things about it is that,

do you remember the first T, I think, in 2017?

It was really just a basic Carrera

with, I think, some fabric straps for door handles

and some slightly lighter glass or something.

I think it did things like,

did it have PSM as standard?

And I think it had the diff in it,

but it's certainly standard powertrain.

But it very, very much is sort of lightly tickled.

Yeah.

And I think cosmetics aside,

like sort of T badging and that sort of thing,

I don't think there was anything on it

you couldn't expect into a standard car.

Yeah.

It's way past that now, isn't it?

It feels like a standalone model.

It is a standalone model.

And it feels like it's one of the pillars

of the 911 lineup now.

Yeah.

Not a sort of derivative off in the corner.

And you can get things like,

you can get the lightweight pack for it, can't you?

Which is a rear seat delete

and lightweight glass and various other things.

I'm not sure why you'd do that, but...

No, I wouldn't.

No, I wouldn't either, but...

Goodness me.

You can.

What a car.

All right, well, on that note,

we need to wrap this one up.

Well, listen, thanks everyone for watching.

Thank you for listening.

Please remember to follow the show

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