Jeep's Cherokee Is Reborn As A Hybrid, Subaru's EV Offensive, Caddy's EV Overload

Welcome to another episode of the Autobire's Guide podcast.

Today it is on location where we just

saw a previous generation Kia Sorento twirl itself

into a tree and hang about 10 feet off the ground.

Yeah, they will need a new car.

Yeah, they said they're going to need a new one.

Do you think they will need a new Jeep Cherokee?

Because that is what we are in right now.

You know what?

It could be a good fit.

So Travis, you've just gotten behind the wheel

of this Cherokee.

So clearly that's where we should start here.

This is the all-new, all-hybrid Cherokee with a twist.

Oh, hey, there's an ambulance coming.

Yes, good news, number two response on the way.

They will need one of those.

Yes, and they'll need a tow truck to get that thing out of here.

We have Jeeps that we could help them with, but well,

we should probably keep going.

And in case you're wondering, guys, if we're assholes,

we are actually currently muddy because we are not assholes.

We stopped our Jeep to take a photo,

and we heard what I thought initially was a tree,

but then it was preceded by squealy tires.

Yeah, that was a wild experience.

And I saw a tree move up on top of a hill,

and I went, was that a car?

Yeah, Travis's instinct was, car went wrong.

My instinct living in the forest was, oh, a tree fell.

Yeah, but we want to make sure everyone was OK,

helped them get out, and emergency response.

And this is how we know it was perched in the tree.

That was, yeah.

But we let someone out of the hatch.

That was fun.

Yes, yeah.

So that's a community coming together.

Yes, you know.

And emergency response is much better.

Yes.

We made sure 911 was called.

Then we took our thumbnail photos.

Then we then we removed ourselves from the situation.

This show must go on, right?

Well, there was a collection of people forming.

We thought it was OK.

Yeah.

You know, I don't speak Spanish,

so Spanish was necessary at this point in time,

and we were of zero assistance at that point.

Indeed, so we don't have to work.

Yes, so back to the Cherokee.

All hybrid, just like a RAV4, right?

Yeah, kind of.

This is like the least Jeep Jeep that Jeep currently Jeeps.

I don't want to talk about it.

But I think it's one of the most important Jeeps

at the exact same time.

It has all of the Jeep essentials.

It's got a big screen in the middle.

Check.

It's got some shiny black plastic that's going to scratch.

It's got a very wide horizontal dashboard

and the chunkiest steering wheel in the segment.

It lots of Jeep badges to be found as well.

Now, this steering wheel, I have to say,

feels a little bit like it's overcompensating.

Apparently, it's the same one as you get in the recon,

which makes it a value,

since this is much less expensive.

I actually really like that steering wheel.

It's nice.

It's a squirkel.

It is, and it's in its shape,

but man, this thing is thick.

That's, that's, I...

Uh-huh.

What?

What is it?

Yeah.

Yeah, one of those.

At any rate, but the seats are really comfy.

I think this is actually one of the more comfortable

and certainly one of the more premium interiors

in this segment.

This makes the forerunner look like it was carved

out of a piece of black plastic.

I don't dislike the forerunner in its existence,

but it's never felt particularly nice to me, right?

It's not premium.

No, no, it's more utilitarian.

And that's fine.

This feels like it's trying to do what a Grand Cherokee does.

Or, you know, bring that elevated interior experience.

But you know what is weird?

Is from the outside, dimensionally, it looks pretty boxy.

It looks like the Cherokee is back to boxy.

Inside, things almost feel a little bit short in here.

Yes, the vibe in here is more outback than Forester.

Yeah.

Which I was a little bit surprised by.

When I originally saw it,

because that box is the outside, same thing as you,

I thought, oh, it's a Jeep Forester, basically.

Even though Jeep created the segment,

everybody else has taken it and rented.

And I thought, you know, we're back to that same format.

No, the roof line also is lower

than average in this segment, it looks like.

I was thinking cavernous.

And that's not, I mean, there's tons of room back there,

but cavernous it is not.

It's the relaxed recline seating position.

So, very much like that outback.

Front seats and rear seats, lower, more reclined,

longer, stretched out.

If you wanted to put long items inside,

you'd be able to do it from that hatch way back there

up to the dashboard a lot easier in here

for lumber hauling, et cetera.

Yeah.

But the hybrid system I am intrigued by

because this uses the same design as the RAV4,

and as the Forester, and the Mazda CX-50,

and the Ford Escape Hybrid, and the Chevy Malibu Hybrid,

and the Chrysler Pacifica plug-in hybrid, et cetera.

This is the popular CVT, ECVT,

planetary power split system.

So is it geared up to be the most reliable Jeep

out on the road?

I'm curious about that.

Mechanically, this kind of hybrid system is very, very simple

because it's two motor generator units

and a single gear set.

That's all that's going on under the hood.

And in the Chrysler Pacifica plug-in hybrid,

very similar design, they said,

I acquised the engineer earlier today,

and they said nothing is directly shared with Pacifica,

but Pacifica's lessons were learned, they said,

for this hybrid system.

The engine is based on the Prince engine

from the European side of Stalantis,

and that was co-developed with BMW

once upon a very long time ago.

So kind of an interesting pedigree there.

And this is the latest revision of that EP6 engine.

So built in Michigan, tweaked and designed,

since they're building a new engine factory,

they were like, hey, let's take the opportunity

to thoroughly modify the engine.

So it's not exactly the same 1.6 that's in Europe,

but heavily revised.

And then the battery is a brand new liquid-cooled

lithium-ion pack that's about the size of,

I don't know, a small, the thin shoebox,

I guess you'd say?

Yeah.

Briefcase?

Small briefcase?

Briefcase, briefcase, and maybe a little shortened briefcase.

I mean, I carry my briefcase with me

to work all the time for all my briefs.

Sure, right.

Yeah.

What else you do with it?

Full of briefs, all those briefs.

Summer Calvin Klein and, you know,

some variety of key, you know.

Not those kind of briefs.

At any rate, I always thought that was a weird phrase,

actually, since the era of the laptop took over,

that people will still call them briefcases

rather than laptop bags in certain circles.

But who is it calling them briefcases?

Because it's not me.

Hey, hey, hey.

I'm just, it's just, it's just an open question.

People born in the 70s.

Well, they bring loss to society today.

We still exist.

Oh, don't we know it?

We're still there.

At any rate, so like the Forrester Hybrid,

back to the actual car we're talking about,

this has a mechanical all-wheel drive system,

not the E-axle setup that we find in, oh, another ambulance.

What is that ambulance doing?

Maybe they've decided they don't need the second one.

Probably not.

But like the Forrester, mechanical all-wheel drive.

Yeah, pros and cons there, probably

good for the Jeep brand.

You lose a little bit in terms of efficiency,

but you haven't had a Jeep that's

been this efficient, I think, ever.

Ever.

So it's not like they're hurting for better feel of car.

37 MPG.

Combined.

Yeah, and if I pull out the widget here,

39 city, 35 highway, 37 combined,

I am suitably impressed because that is better

than the Forrester Hybrid.

Yes, now the Forrester Hybrid isn't,

I wouldn't say fully compromised, but I do think.

Fun fact, you can turn right on the red here.

Yes, as soon as the car's not coming.

I appreciate that.

I don't know if you can do that in every state.

You know what, you can in my state,

and I forget that there are states you can't do that in.

So sometimes we're out on the road.

I'm always a little bit unsure.

But E-axle, RAV4 and Mazda CX-50 and really anything else

with an E-axle setup, we were recently in the Grand High

later, it does this too.

If you're in wet weather, it was absolutely pouring cats

and dogs, and we were filming this earlier.

If you haven't seen the Cherokee video,

one of us looks like a drowned rat.

The other one was under an umbrella.

Well, for the safety of the camera.

I mean, yes.

It was necessary.

Camera's waterproof, but the lens gets water on it,

and that's sad looking.

At any rate, in wet weather like we were experiencing earlier,

the difference is really noticeable

because the RAV4 and the Grand Highlander

and the Highlander hybrids, et cetera,

they all tended to have that front wheel scrabble

because they can't send as much power instantly

to the rear axle or predictively as much power

to the rear axle without the front's also spinning.

So on snow, ice, et cetera, those are gonna be the way to go.

But this has received some interesting press, the Cherokee,

because our friends over at Motor Trend

somehow suspiciously managed to get their hands

on a Jeep Cherokee, oh, I don't know,

like four months ago, five months ago,

and they decided to off-road it at which point they said,

oh, it tore and ripped the underbody covers off of there,

the arrow covers, et cetera.

And Jeep hasn't said this as directly,

but it's very clear that this is not the off-road Cherokee.

No, and here's the thing, I actually love that this exists,

right, because I see a lot of people driving Jeep Wranglers

who have no need, zero need for a Jeep Wrangler,

whatever Wrangler is capable of.

And this is not gonna pull any of those shoppers

away from the Wrangler.

Oh, but maybe they'll start over here

from a different, and it's not your bad person

because you bought a Wrangler,

but I don't think the Wrangler is a great daily driver.

I don't know, listen, or let us know in the comment section,

it sounded like he was judging Wrangler owners.

No, I just know what they're capable of

and know that people don't use them

for anything anywhere near it,

and they do it everywhere, that's what's interesting.

So in California, you get a bunch of Wrangler owners

who may never touch the beach,

but they can take the top down.

But then you get in cold weather climates

and they go, oh.

It is America's most popular convertible.

I know it is, and it's a little bit stunning.

It's a little bit stunning.

But what I appreciate is that you can say,

hey, this is Jeep-like without having all this extra equipment

that you'll never use,

and that's probably what bothers me,

is equipment existing that will never be utilized.

You know what bothers me about this Cherokee though?

The electronic door releases

that are getting lots of bad press.

Yeah, it's gotta be difficult

when you're in a development cycle,

and right now, the hot new thing is electronic releases.

And I actually really like a lot of releases

because it does add a premium feel to it.

And you find it in a lot of vehicles in a wide range,

and this is one where you go, oh, it's a little bit upscale.

But now, there's a big concern.

What do you do when you're about to announce a vehicle

that has a feature that you see in the headlines is...

Being banned.

It's got hot press the wrong direction.

I'm waiting for some of our colleagues in the industry

to be do the so-and-so drops the ban hammer.

That's what they always want to say.

The ban hammer, whatever the ban hammer is, I don't know.

But here's my thought.

Clearly you don't have one, yeah.

Clearly I don't have a ban hammer.

Here's the thing with electronic door releases

and why they're being banned in China,

and why I would actually love to see a ban in the US,

if I'm honest.

Up front, we have a emergency release

that is not overly obvious.

Which is good for everyday use.

And highlight, if you're stuck in a tree

in your Kia Sorento and you need to figure out

how to get out of the car, like we just experienced,

we all know where these traditional door releases are.

Dude's trying to get out the back,

door's wedged in the hillside,

so we opened the hatch, knee went out the back.

All worked fine because they're mechanical releases

in that generation, so we didn't have to worry about

the fact that maybe they have power,

maybe they don't have power.

I'm guessing no power because the windows didn't roll down.

Yeah, that seemed to be the case.

That was our first suggestion.

Let's go out the Dukes of Hazard style.

Not Daisy Dukes style.

That would be a different kind of window removal.

This situation, yeah.

But here we've got this emergency mechanical release

that's kind of hidden under the door,

and only in the front.

Yeah, there might be one in the back,

but not immediately reachable.

Not that we found, like I did not find any.

And if you can't find it, then you're not gonna be able

to use it.

And that's not surprising because I actually do not know

of any electronic door release cars

that have a mechanical release in the back.

I thought the Model X had one that was hidden behind

a little panel.

That one I had.

For the gold wing thing?

For the gold wing thing.

That might be the case.

That might be the exception.

We'd have to check on it.

And I never saw one in person,

but I thought there was one.

But here's the thing.

But by and large, you're correct.

Right, here's the thing.

So you're in a car accident like that.

Car starts on fire as cars can in accidents.

And your eight month old daughter,

someone of us has an eight month old,

so this is front of mind.

And your eight month old is in the backstrap

in their car seat.

Even if there was a mechanical release,

they're not gonna be able to get out on their own.

So your options are somehow break the window

with your bare hands, which I would definitely attempt.

And that would not succeed.

You're gonna get glass in,

but that's not the concern.

I would not succeed.

And especially if you have laminated signed windows,

you're not gonna be able to do it very easily.

That's gonna be a very big effort.

And then you get to watch while your child dies in a fire.

Yeah, you would end up diving in, back in,

and you would go with them.

Which honestly, your situation might be for the best.

So that's my problem with the electronic door handles.

Let us know in the comments

if you have thought similar things.

And if this is a deal breaker for you

in the car shopping world,

I suspect it would be a deal breaker for me to be honest.

I think I would need that.

And I don't even know if Volvo's assurance

that they've got a backup electrical system.

I don't even think that would be good enough for me.

Right, because how removed

from the other electrical system is it?

That's what gets cut off in the first place.

I don't want that one time in a thousand

that the system fails to be mine.

And I can be sure that it's not mine

if I don't buy it in the first place.

And this is one of the, to your point,

I'm not the one to weigh in on this

and have the final say

because I don't have that same concern.

I do know somebody who,

because Tesla was one of the first to get the news

about, oh my gosh, we can't get in the car.

And I had someone's, a friend of mine's mother go,

wait, doesn't he have a Tesla?

He shouldn't be driving that.

He's gonna die in a fiery car accident.

Hopefully not, but I'm not at the same level of concern.

But things happen, for sure.

And you assume that as the quote-unquote adult in the room

that you would have a better likelihood

of finding that emergency door release maybe.

I mean, people do stupid things in panic situations.

It's a known thing.

Like you don't remember how it goes.

We're still trying to figure out

how that little accident occurred.

And that might be a bad response in a panic situation.

Yeah, but I don't know.

The rest of the Cherokee I am on board with though.

Toe ratings are pretty decent.

Fuel economy ratings are good.

The car area is really pretty generous in the back.

And unlike the Forester hybrid or the CRV hybrid,

you can fit a spare tire in the back.

Yes, now this one didn't come with a spare tire.

This one did not have one.

And I have been unable to get the answer to the question of,

do any of them actually have the spare tire?

Because this Monnery that I'm looking at here

does not list it.

But full provision for one.

It has the bolt down with the threaded insert in it, et cetera.

Although it did seem like the area was filled in

for the moment, so you'd have to remove, I guess.

There were just two bags and they were loose,

floating around back there.

So I'm wondering maybe if the spare tire will be there

in the final production models, and these pre-production ones

just don't have the spare tire.

Either way, you physically cannot put one

in a Forester or a CRV.

You know what would need to have a spare tire,

like which model?

It'd be the Trailhawk.

Yes.

Which doesn't exist right now.

But they're doing everything but telling us,

we're working on it.

Right.

The way they phrased this was, Trailhawk

is an essential part of the Jeep brand.

Cherokee is an essential part of the Jeep brand.

We can't talk about future product at this time.

And I was like, so does that mean there is a future product

that you can't talk about?

And they were like, that's not what we said.

And I'm like, I think that is what you said.

Yeah, there is some between the lines involved.

And so that one would probably, I would think have to.

Some sort of have to.

That would have a spare tire.

With a spare tire.

What drivetrain that will have, though, is anyone's guess.

It's most likely going to be the latest two liter turbo

from the brand that we're going to find in the Grand Cherokee.

Rejiggered and re-tweaked for transverse applications.

My real question is, is the next generation Cherokee

Trailhawk going to get some form of that really quirky

two speed transfer case setup that we found

in the last model?

There is no way.

Absolutely not.

I would love it.

Which is kind of a bummer.

I would love it.

I don't know, I think they would have to

because that would be the thing that would separate

a Trailhawk version of this from a Bronco Sport.

I don't know if they're that worried about it, though.

And I also don't think that people who are really worried

about off-road capability are going,

the Bronco Sport's totally enough for me.

I mean, people like to overbuy the capability

of the vehicle, the whole Wrangler thing.

That's why you got a two speed transfer case

that Cherokee.

Yeah, exactly, right?

But that's my point.

You don't have Bronco Sports out there

doing lots of off-roading.

You have Broncos doing a lot of off-roading.

Ah, that's not what Ford says.

Ford claims, Ford claims they have a substantial,

even actually, and actually think of it this way,

if you have even 5% of Bronco Sport shoppers,

quote unquote off-roading,

that's a significant number of off-roaders, to be honest.

Because they sell a ton of Bronco Sports.

That's true.

So diminishing returns are still pretty big slices

of this pie for this incredibly mixed phrase that I'm using.

And people like to have the vibe.

I mean, honestly, it's the vibe.

Oh, it's vibes.

It is vibes.

Your generation is all about vibes.

It's actually not my generation, but it happens.

But it is.

They want that persona in their vehicle to be adventurous.

And that's where you get something like a Bronco Sport

with more of an off-road pack,

which is almost why I think,

and this is gonna be controversial,

why I almost think that CRV Trail Sport is plenty

for what people are looking for.

But what it's missing is a graphics package.

I think CRV Trail Sport is everything

that a CRV shopper is looking for.

Correct.

But I don't think that's everything

that the off-roading compact shopper is looking for.

Because it doesn't have the graphics package.

I think it's more than the graphics package,

but for that you'll have to wait and see

because we do have a CRV Trail Sport video

coming up on the channel.

I think CRV Trail Sports issues are numerous,

but Honda was also pretty upfront

that the rise of Trail Sport took them

by a little bit of surprise.

And they were like, we have to Trail Sport this thing,

but it now is not the time for a complete CRV redesign.

Which is true.

So next CRV Trail Sport will most likely be more

Passporty. More Trail Sporty.

More Trail Sporty like Passport Trail Sport.

Because current Trail Sport,

the only difference is the tires.

Yeah, I mean, that's it.

That is it, yeah.

The only mechanical difference that is going to give you

any kind of capability is the tires.

And an exterior color, if I recall correctly.

Exterior color is unique.

I've got some extra tweaks to the visuals here and there,

and there's a Trail Sport badge and all of that.

Trail Sport format.

Right.

The actual capability point is simply a tire change.

Which is not necessarily a bad thing.

As we discussed actually, in that video,

we were able to do some zero to 60 testing

in the rain and on gravel.

And well, not zero to 60 on gravel.

We did zero to 30 on gravel.

And there was a noticeable difference in breaking distance

and acceleration performance on gravel with those tires.

So, you know, don't sniff at the cheesy,

all terrain tires everybody.

Right.

But it doesn't turn your CRV into a Bronco.

Correct.

Or even a Bronco Sport.

And I just don't think people need that.

I think something like a Subaru Crosstrek is plenty good.

A Crosstrek wilderness.

I mean, again, that feels like a persona.

Because are the wilderness folks doing things

in their wilderness Crosstrek that you couldn't do

in a regular Crosstrek?

That is an interesting question.

According to Subaru, yes.

But is that true?

We don't know.

Yeah.

I mean, we do not have verifiable numbers.

I do have to say that I appreciate

some of those wilderness models have extra towing capability

built in.

That's nice.

And they're a little bit pepier just because of the way

the transmissions are programmed, essentially.

But there's nothing wrong with it, right?

You want your splash of color here.

You want your extra lift there.

You want a little more plastic by all means.

But that'll be what we see in a Trailhawk here is.

We'll get some tires, maybe get a little bit of a lift,

graphics package.

I'm going to bet we're going to at least get

a different differential in the back, if not

the two-speed transfer case.

But it's a totally different system up front.

Do you think it's just a plug and play for them?

Or worth it to reconfigure it all?

The question is, are they going to resurrect

that previous generation system and update it for this,

which they could, was this platform designed for that system

to fit in it?

Or are they cooking up something completely different

with maybe just a locker in the rear?

And then they're going to say, well, the lowest

ratio in our transmission, whatever transmission that

may be, is sufficient.

I think the bigger question is, is it

going to get the ZF9 speed, which has not

been universally loved?

Or are they going to go to one of their partners,

like Isen or even Hyundai, and borrow one of these transmissions

for use under there, an eight-speed from either Isen,

which is going to be the Toyota eight-speed,

or are they going to get a Hyundai eight-speed for use

under that hood?

That's the question I have in a way.

In that same vein, though, we are then

assuming an entirely different engine out of the hood.

I am going to go ahead and guess it's

going to be the two-liter turbo.

That's my guess.

This is the new two-liter hurricane.

The new two-liter hurricane in some form,

with modifications, of course, for the new vehicle.

I mean, this comes in at 210 horsepower, 230 pound-feet of torque.

That two-liter hurricane is way punchier, way punchier.

Yeah, I'm sure it will be detuned or retuned for transverse.

So I'm guessing not 323 horsepower, maybe 223,

probably a substantial reduction in horsepower.

And I'm guessing that they could probably also

make some other tweaks to the engine

to maybe a non-variable geometry turbo,

so a very fixed geometry turbo, that kind of thing,

for the lower price point in a Cherokee as well.

But the assumption was, based on the wording that they used,

that that two-liter turbo would eventually

replace the two-liter turbo used in everything else.

I would say that makes sense.

But I think that hurricane straight six

should be what replaces every six cylinder.

But that Pentastar will be here forever.

Yes, the Pentastar will be here forever, but not in here forever.

The only reason Cherokee received the smaller Pentastar,

the only reason the smaller Pentastar existed in the first place,

was displacement taxes in other world markets.

And so they felt that they needed a smaller

displacement Pentastar for Cherokee

and for other vehicles internationally.

So that's why that 3.2 existed.

Three liters probably would have been the better displacement

to go with for some of those world markets,

but I think they just couldn't shrink it any further that easily.

And so that's how they ended up there.

But I think the 3.6 will live on for quite some time.

I don't think that's a problem, though,

because the 3.6 has actually been a pretty solid engine.

No, it is.

And they're expanding.

I mean, with those E revs, Reeves,

whichever they end up calling it when it's in production

and on sale, it's getting a second life over there.

It'll never die.

And it is, interestingly, one of the highest volume V6 engines

in the world.

They make a ton of 3.6 in their V6s

because it's used in everything from the trucks

to the Grand Cherokees to everything practically

in between.

I am a bit more surprised that they did not

cook up a naturally aspirated 3.0 liter inline 6

from the Hurricane family to replace the 3.6

and just have everybody use an inline.

Yeah, and obviously the dimensions

wouldn't change much at all from model to model.

And you could do a lower power and a higher power.

And you never know what's going down the line, I guess.

And from a modern 3.0 liter inline 6,

a high-revving modern 3.0 liter inline 6,

you could probably achieve 290-300 horsepower,

relatively easily high compression,

which you could do with that engine design.

Part of me is just a little bit surprised.

I'm assuming maybe the reason they didn't do that

is maybe they thought they would need a displacement increase

and that would require more block redesign, et cetera,

perhaps depending on the design of that hurricane engine.

Obviously they will never tell us we have to read the tea leaves.

Sure.

Now, so we're out here with Jeep.

We drove a couple of Jeeps today.

What have you had at home the last couple weeks?

Yeah, quite an interesting group at home.

We've had Palisade and Grand Highlander,

two of the more family-friendly entries

in the three-row segment.

Interestingly, Grand Cherokee is getting

that same 2-liter turbo in the Grand Cherokee L, mind you.

And we had the Lyric V, which is the last carplay-enabled

GMEV standing.

I am surprised that it's clung on in that particular model.

But the funny thing with Cadillac's EV lineup

is I realized this last drive, they now have more EV models

than they have gas models in their lineup.

And they are the first luxury brand

to hit that tipping point, even though Cadillac was never

as vocal about electrification as a transformation goal

like Volvo was or other manufacturers were.

But they were the first one to that post.

That's interesting.

And I would say they've done it pretty well.

Because we've got OPTIQ, Vistic, Lyric,

Celestic, Escaladec, I mean Escalade IQ, and Escalade IQ L.

And then we all know that there's

going to be that convertible Celestic thing at some point.

But not even counting the Sole, I think is what it's called,

not even counting that.

That's more than their gas models,

because they're now down to XT5, which

is going to live on in another generation.

We're going to get a single sedan,

and then we have the Escalade.

And that's it.

An Escalade long wheelbase, I guess, if you for.

And even then, it still counts.

What did you think of the Lyric V?

There's plenty of power there.

There's plenty of power.

I am more intrigued now that the Model X is disappearing,

because it's certainly more Model X than Model Y.

Yes.

And Cadillac will be glad to hear you say that.

And I love that Cadillac is still doing it.

Like GM is like, nope, we're going

to have an EV of every size description from small to,

oh my god, why is the Escalade IQ L this big and this heavy?

And everything in between.

And it is.

But it is a tricky one, because it's not

a huge volume of sales there.

No.

So I suppose it has the plus side of making you feel special,

because you wanted the more expensive Lyric

rather than the OPTIQ.

But also, why does it exist?

It's also more stylish than you get in the OPTIQ.

And more unique.

Yeah, it has a bit of that wagon profile, which we kind of like.

Because OPTIQ's not exactly Equinox EV,

but it's not not Equinox EV either.

It's clearly related.

But it does feel like a significant step up.

The Lyric doesn't feel very blazer.

Yeah.

I mean, you would know, right?

You've got that blazer at home.

I'm curious, though, there is still room.

I mean, I guess there's room for more Cadillac models.

The one thing we didn't see that GM just overhauled

was that mid-sized three-row with Buick and the GMC

and the Chevy versions.

So with that major overhaul, the one that was missing

was a Cadillac model.

Yeah, there's no X-T6.

It's dead now.

But part of me is actually OK with that.

I thought to myself, in my lifetime,

it seems like Cadillac has been in a continual state

of reinvention.

Like every five to 10 years, Cadillac's like,

we're going to go in a different direction.

We're going to go in a different direction.

We're going to be sporty.

We're going to be luxury.

We're going to be world-class.

Then we're going to be electric.

And now we're in that electric window.

But this is the first time in this entire period

where Cadillac has actually had, I think, a dynamic shift

and a luxury shift that has been differentiated enough

from the rest of the GM family.

Because X-T4, X-T5, and X-T6 were all kind of like the Acura

of the thing.

And even the Lexus of the thing in a way, where

Half steps, three-quarter steps, something like that.

Yeah, it's like the same engine, same transmission,

mix and rematch.

Yeah, you got nicer leather in a different dash.

And depending on the generation, yeah, you got

big-shelled grille.

Yeah, you got Cadillac Q, or you got this version or whatever.

But now everybody's on the Android automotive thing.

So back to the same, same there.

But this time around, we have a markedly different vehicle

in Vistik.

You have the horsepower.

You have the rear power bias that was never possible

in that shared platform that Buick and Chevy and GMC use.

So that Vistik being there, even though I kind of

been surprised we don't have a Chevy version of the Vistik,

let's be honest.

Or a GMC version, where's the, yeah.

But the electrification side does allow them to try and create

this differentiation.

And I am a little happy that they've ditched some

of the Blazer trims to, I think, help with that separation.

So Blazer is now front-wheel drive or all-wheel drive,

not front-wheel drive, rear-wheel drive, or all-wheel drive.

So they left the power bias towards Cadillac.

So they do drive more differently.

Although V and SS drive, I mean, they're twinsies.

Yeah, for sure.

And that I'm OK with, because the Chevy's long

had the SS power package.

That makes a lot of sense that that's the one that's conjoined.

But for the bulk of them, they drive differently.

And the one that I do still feel like there's room for Cadillac

to add as well, but this is towards electrification,

is why is there not a Cadillac Escalade EXT?

They've got the other models there in the Sierra

and the Silverado EVs.

There's an Escalade EXT waiting in the wings.

Yeah, I've always wondered why we don't have more luxury pickup trucks.

And when you ask that question to the pickup truck manufacturers,

the claim is typically, well, we tried that with Blackwood

and we tried that with the Cadillac EXT.

And they claim that it didn't go well.

But I actually, I think that this is the wrong way of looking at it in a way.

And this is where I will say, I don't know if you've noticed this,

but the way that the American luxury companies look at volume

and look at success is entirely different from the way the European car companies

look at sales volume and sales success.

So then what I mean by that is you look at Cadillac, for instance,

and they're like, well, the EXT didn't sell well.

The Blackwood didn't sell well.

And then you look at those actual sales numbers and you look and you say,

well, that sold better than this BMW model that has existed for three generations.

And so it's clear that when they look at sales success, I think that

this is higher threshold of some kind.

I think they're too tired, too tied with their mainstream brand.

I wonder if, I mean, first of all, you have to you have to change

with the times or you'll die away, right?

Something like a Blackwood, something like the escalate EXT,

where those just a little ahead of their time because truck sales,

the trucks are new SUVs, which were new sedans, which are.

So the truck market is bigger than I think ever because it's more welcome

into everyday homes that have sort of to my regular point.

No business owning a truck.

They don't have the need to have the one and that's the direction they want to go.

And then prove why not try it again, especially when you have.

Yeah, and they've proved that customers can pay and are willing to pay these dollar amounts.

And what's the difference between putting out a Blazer EV SS

performance model versus this?

Just think of an escalate EXT and emphasis on the blue EXT.

Put that in and and compare it to, I don't know, the call it the luxury

version of the Silverado EV and see how that does comparatively.

Yeah, I am intrigued by this.

And I think that it's again, I think it's a two part thing.

I think it's the the philosophy and and mind process, whatever we're going to call

that, sure, around volume and then there's this this modicum of concern

about fracturing their brands and customers like, well, we've got this luxury

Silverado and this luxury GMC spent so much money on Denali.

Is Cadillac going to take away from Denali?

Yes or no, maybe, or would it be additive volume?

I think it might be additive, but I think it all goes back to this this fundamental

misunderstanding or misviewing of sales volume.

And it's it's this Lexus and Acura and Cadillac and Lincoln, especially have

this difficulty thinking of models sales success outside of their mainstream

brands, you know, a normal sphere.

So if the model, if the Acura doesn't sell like a Honda should sell, then Acura

is like, well, we tried it, it didn't work.

Like the MDX hybrid, that was one of those comments on it.

It didn't sell well.

How many did you sell?

Well, you look at that sales volume, that's probably more volume than BMW

sold of some of their attempts at different drivetrains.

Right.

And that seems like a success to me.

Ditto for things like Wagoneer, there was a time where people were, oh,

Wagoneer is not succeeding, but the sales volume actually is pretty good.

And I would say that Stellantis is a little bit better at that thought, that

sales volume calculation, but Lincoln and Cadillac and all the others, I think

they have a very similar problem in, in they, they expect these luxury models

to somehow do a thousand, a hundred thousand units a year, and some of them

just aren't and they have to decide that that's okay.

Yeah.

And I guess, you know, if you're going to do the experimenting, I guess there's

always risk associated with it, but when there are models already in the lineup,

like I said, build off of the Sierra or the Silverado EVs, slap it on, see how

it goes.

And, and I have a hard time understanding why they wouldn't do something

like that, but they did something like the Hummer.

Yeah.

And they're, because the Hummer obviously has some shared components, but it

is more different than the Silverado and the, and the Sierra than they are

from each other than I think even this Cadillac would be.

And there would be ways to do it.

You could, you could use the Hummer's thousand horsepower, you know,

trimotor setup in the Cadillac and have that be the only drivetrain.

That would really differentiate it from the other trucks having the three

motor thing tuned towards a Cadillac style.

But I think this is the same problem that we find in, in again, different

brands like Acura, why does Acura not have a hybrid MDX?

Why has that not been recooked?

Cause they had one, they could have just redone that generation.

Why did they not redo their, their excellent eight speed dual clutch transmission?

That was a fantastic transmission.

And it would be really great in the Integra.

That would make the Integra so much more fun than it is now.

But there was this concern about volume and appropriate fit and all that.

But again, I think it's that, that difficulty in removing

themselves from the mainstream thought process.

Let's go back to Acura for just a second.

So we just posted a few days ago about the ADX, right?

So our video went live there talking about the ADX.

And the comment section is really split in a really interesting way.

A lot of commentary on the engine.

And I have to say, I was the first to say that engine is not particularly quick.

But if it's just an HRV, what's the HRV like?

Because that engine is not the quick version of an HRV.

It's, it's a totally different setup, but, but it is really slow.

But the ADX feels like a.

It feels like a homerun waiting to just find its mark.

But it needs, it too needs a new powertrain.

It needs that hybrid system.

And yeah, there's the question, there's the question, does it though?

Because it sells relatively well.

Well, and this is so, you know, you and I are on the road a lot.

We read a lot, but we can't be at every location, right?

We can't go across the country all the time.

So I was told there are a lot of ADXs still on lots and 25 ADXs.

And I think the 25 came in later.

I don't know if there was a full calendar year of sales.

I think that I think that Acura did expect ADX to sell even better than it is now.

But I also think it's it's not a sales failure in the slightest.

Given that it's in, I don't know if I'm if I'm recalling my numbers correctly,

maybe we'll correct this later.

But I think it's in the top four in sales volume in that segment.

That's not a bad place to be.

And when you consider that Lexus UX is selling really well,

and it was a slug for the longest time, the new hybrid system has helped it.

It's still not especially quick.

That segment, I don't know if anybody is actually buying their option

because of, you know, fantastic driving dynamics or quick acceleration.

The one interesting twist is that that segment is different.

And I will say that the subcompact luxury segment is strange one is a strange one

because the bestseller historically in this segment for a while has been the Volvo.

Right. And and something like the ADX is not at all like the Volvo,

even though it's in the same category, but they're completely different vehicles,

almost going completely different directions.

It just comes down to size and the brand and the Volvo.

You can get a fun one because you can get over 400 horsepower in your Volvo

for whatever reason. Who knows?

You can get a real drive one.

You can get the front wheel drive one.

You can get the, you know, the all wheel drive gas one.

You can get the all wheel drive electric one.

Lots of options to choose from there in the XC 40.

And that's the one that I am.

I'm intrigued to see if that is the start of a new chapter for Volvo

in a way kind of going off in a tangent.

Because if if this is the most popular entry in that segment

and these buyers are coming back in three to six years,

what do they end up getting in three to six years?

Did they stay in the Volvo family?

Is the XC 60 exciting enough?

You know, XC 40 enough in a way to get them to stay?

Or does that customer graduate into a BMW or Mercedes

because they're like, well, this was my my starter luxury brand

and I'm going to go German next time.

Yeah, I like Volvo for the premium feel,

though they are a luxury brand.

They're not necessarily opulent, but everything in there is nice.

Then you find in an Acura, comparatively, but you also pay more.

And I like their interiors more than Audi, I will say.

So I would I would rank I like the Mercedes interiors.

Depending on the model, I think the Mercedes and BMW interiors

can be a step above the Volvo interior, but you're going to pay more for them.

For sure. The wood trim, especially and

and the component quality, I think, is a notch above Volvo.

But the Volvo design dresses up the above average quality really nicely as well.

And even though sometimes you'll find nicer parts in more expensive

Audis, I don't think the style works to their advantage.

It's strange, right?

Because you look at BMW and Volvo as they are standalone luxury brands.

They're not based off of a mainstream model.

So then Audi is always going to be towing the line between

what switches can be put in here from Volkswagen and which ones we have to.

Yeah. Yeah.

And that I think that is part of Audi's problem is what

what doesn't step on Porsche's toes?

Because Q5, for instance, is related, well, not this Q5,

but previous Q5 is related to the current generation

gas, Macon, which is ending production soon.

And so there had to be some decision internally, like obviously

shared platform, shared drivetrains, et cetera.

But what is left to Porsche?

What is not?

And and again, BMW doesn't have that problem.

Neither does neither does Mercedes, right?

They just do what they want to do with it.

But the accuracy and the Lexus of the world have a different problem,

which is how do we economize and make the most of this shared platform

whose volume is primarily going to be mainstream

and then we want this elevated product?

So there are more compromises on the luxury side there

because of that, that sharing down.

Do you feel like there's a clear brand that compromises more

between Lexus or Acura?

Acura, for sure. Acura compromises more.

But I have to, right?

I mean, Honda is a much smaller company.

So, you know, that it sounds harsh, but there's a reason.

I mean, they just there isn't the sales volume globally

that that Lexus and Toyota has, because Acura doesn't exist

in most markets around the world.

It's primarily a North American brand.

And even though it's sold in other markets,

the sales volume is incredibly low outside of the North American market.

So it's difficult to command the same volume of resources

that Lexus has access to with much higher global sales volume

and a much larger global reach.

And that's why we do find some unique platforms in the Lexus portfolio,

but fewer than we ever found before.

Yeah. And it's actually one of the reasons I continue to be a little bit

more disappointed in Lexus design, because they have more to play with.

And it feels like they're going very, very safe with the interior.

It's like Lexus is turning into Acura in a way, which is actually,

I mean, conversely, it's one of the reasons I loved the NDX type S

because what what components is that pulling from?

Right? I mean, it was I mean,

10 speed automatic and general platform from Pilot.

But thankfully, well, an all wheel drive basically is shared as well.

But the engine, honestly, I am surprised it never found its way

into something like a ridgeline.

Sure. Because I thought that would have been fun. Sure.

But good for Acura for actually keeping it to Acura

and not allowing it to drift along to another product portfolio.

But but that's, you know, when we look at the Lexus lineup,

it's moving in this same direction in a way because we had LS and LC

that were unique, and we had LFA, which was unique,

and we had IS and GS that were unique.

And now it really looks like everything is dying

and they're going to be a brand based around RX, TX and ES.

Like that's going to be the core.

Right. And those are the nice RAV4 events as Highlanders, Grand Highlanders.

Yeah. And that it makes sense on paper,

but it's not terribly exciting. Right.

And and, you know, the likes of an LFA or an NSX,

they did a lot to bring a brand forward.

You know, the Integra was great for Acura, but it is a Civic.

And I I'm partially torn because on the business front,

I think Lexus did the exact right thing because, yeah, intrinsically,

well, Lexus and Toyota love profit margins, mind you, everybody does.

Right. Right. But intrinsically, you should.

All the X's, right?

They are going to be less expensive to build and design

because of this synergy with the mainstream model.

It's going to drive costs down on everything.

Similar hybrid systems.

There's a unique hybrid system, thankfully, in TX, the plug in hybrid with the V6.

But other than that, most everything is shared with the mainstream,

the 2.4 turbo, the regular hybrid, et cetera.

The suspension stuff is all very, very, very common as well.

And you contrast that with, you know, Genesis,

that's trying to do somewhere in between where they designed

unique rear wheel drive platforms to compete more with the Germans.

That's got to be less profitable.

We will never know because of the way Hyundai reports.

It's very opaque there in in South Korea.

We will never know how profitable or unprofitable Genesis is,

how much cash is being burnt on the altar of separatism.

But I but it is it makes Genesis the unique one in that domestic

or sorry, in that mainstream luxury pairing,

right, because they do have unique engines and transmissions

and suspensions and platforms that no mainstream other model has,

which I do think makes them one of the more interesting brands out there.

But again, it comes down to the bottom line

and it can't be as beneficial as Toyota with all the parts sharing.

And the line is no blame and the line is getting a little blurry, though,

because now we've got the Genesis GV 60 and we've got theoretically

the upcoming GV 90, whatever they call it,

yeah, that are going to be platform sharing with other models in the lineup.

But it is it is unique and interesting

that Stinger obviously was related at one point,

but they never had the Lexus ES Camry, you know, right thing

that that we had in the Lexus Toyota lineup.

And that's what started them was this thing that was shared with with them,

literally the first model because LS wasn't ready quite.

And and then LS came out like a femto second afterwards,

but basically launched with these two vehicles

and Genesis launched with the complete opposite.

They launched with the the G90 and G80 essentially in the lineup,

because those were the Hyundai's.

So yeah, split off.

We have instant, instant uniqueness.

And that does lend a different feel and vibe

if you're willing to accept the mainstream upstart brand that way.

Yeah. And I don't know, especially, especially the Korean brands, right?

They had some work to do.

And so differentiating farther from is probably to their benefit.

And not that any of like you look at the brand and you can tell by logos,

but Genesis feels very European in the branding of it.

They hired a whole bunch of Germans.

Right. And it's not that take it away.

But like they're the ones who make the logo.

And that logo seems very, you know,

Aston Martin-esque in its own way.

But but some of these some of these synergies are pros.

Some of them are cons.

Actually later this week, we're diving into another synergy.

We are about to drive, oh, drive through a little bit of standing water.

We are about to drive the Subaru versions of some of those Toyotas.

Talk about parts sharing.

Yes.

And I am so curious because in this part sharing,

Subaru is the one that went two-wheel drive.

And Toyota finally built an electric outback.

And this led to a comment that I thought was absolutely hilarious

that I must must repeat here.

Do you think because of all this synergy with Toyota and Subaru,

is Subaru turning into Toyota's Pontiac?

That was like, ouch, ouch.

What a comment.

Well, yeah.

Also kind of, oh.

It's not just Subaru, Mazda as well, right?

But less so because there's less there's less direct sharing between Mazda.

There was supposed to be this this rear-wheel drive platform synergy

and sharing between Lexus and Mazda.

But it didn't happen.

So has Subaru just been more successful in their partnerships

and been able to elevate the brand or something?

Are they getting more out of it than Mazda without having their hands tied?

I think more of Subaru is owned by Toyota than Mazda.

Currently as a percentage of the company.

And they've been owned longer, as I recall.

So that may be why.

More integration, more familiarity.

I know that they would both reject the concept of integration

because they don't share any staff as far as I know.

But more interest in collaboration.

Willingness to explore possibilities.

And I think so far, that was a lot of water.

I think so far it has worked well because it all started with the 86 and the BRZ.

That's what really started that whole sharing there.

The FRS 86 BRZ, GR, blah, blah, blah, blah thing.

And I think that's what started cemented the love.

Because Akiyo Toyota really wanted this sporty thing for the Toyota brand.

But how to make it work on paper.

How to make it work on paper.

That's what started that synergy, which led to the Super synergy.

And then everybody needed an EV.

So they were like, well, let's work together on these EVs.

That makes a lot of sense.

And where are Mazdas?

Since Subaru is another one of those interesting companies where it is incredibly small in its domestic market.

But Subaru is pretty big in the US.

And much bigger in the US than their domestic market, I should say.

Much like Honda, actually, to be honest.

So I'm on the car side.

Honda sells a lot of K cars in some markets.

But in the regular auto side of Honda, North America is by far their largest market.

And in China, we have to remind everybody that half of their Chinese volume is with a cooperative

joint venture there where I believe Honda only owns 49% of this joint venture, something like that.

And most of the Honda sold in China are not Honda designs.

They're Chinese car designs with Honda logos.

And a bit of Honda styling worked in there.

Unlike over here where things like the ZDX and the Prologue.

Yeah.

We're on the models.

Hey, but they did what they needed to do.

And as soon as they didn't need to do it, they stuck a fork in it.

So I am intrigued by that business decision, too.

Isn't the Prologue still around for the moment, right?

I know ZDX is gone.

I believe it is canceled.

Okay.

I believe it is.

Someone could correct us there.

If not, it is not long for this world.

Let's go that way.

And that's clear, right?

Yeah.

But yeah, so back to the Subaru and Toyota thing.

Subaru, actually Mazda is a great example.

Mazda is another smaller brand who doesn't have the capital to just throw around like crazy.

They have no EVs here in the US.

Yep.

Subaru has one.

They tried for a hot second.

They did.

Subaru has one, about to have three, about to have four.

That puts them a big step ahead.

Even if they've had to play really, really nice and they make some of their own compromises,

they at least have product to bring to market.

I'm intrigued to see how that goes for Subaru because among the brands where customers were

demanding electrification, Subaru ranked pretty highly, not only in their own estimates,

but also third-party estimates and polls of shoppers and intended buyers and markets.

The Subaru shopper seemed to be more interested in hybridization and electrification than other

brands, even though Subaru had neither of those things at the time, those polls were done.

So I am intrigued to see how the hybrid push does for them.

I assume it's going to do well.

And it's going to help retain Subaru shoppers that maybe went off and looked at something else.

Because there are lots of other hybrid options.

Yeah.

And ditto on the electric side.

I mean, if they could give us effectively the Trail Seekers would be the electric outback,

that I think goes a long way to making sure that these customers don't defect and go somewhere else

and settle down.

Now, a couple of spin-off questions there.

Do you think that there's a chance the Trail Seeker is the Subaru Toyota model that actually

sells the Toyota rival?

Do you think we'll get more Trail Seekers on the road?

Because it is the true-to-blue Subaru outback electric that outsells the BZ Wilton.

I doubt it.

Don't forget Toyota's sales network.

I mean, the sales volume is largely going to be constrained by your dealer network and

how many dealers you have out there and where the dealers are.

And Toyota has not only a very large dealer footprint, one of the largest actually in the U.S.,

but also consistently high-ranked dealers.

And Subaru dealers actually rank well, too.

So, Subaru has a better chance than, I don't know, Hyundai.

Because Hyundai and Kia dealers, their product line has come up a lot in the last decade.

The dealers have risen slightly and dealers are still a significant pain point,

seemingly for new car shoppers in some brands there.

And I'm with you there.

It's probably not, but something to me goes,

wouldn't it be great if Subaru could take the edge there?

I am curious if the Subaru Not Highlander could be outselling the Ascent in the not too distant

future.

Yeah, I'm curious to see what that is.

Because, of course, Subaru said there's going to be a three-row EV.

We know Highlander's going all electric.

What we don't know is, will the electric Subaru finally be different?

Or, everything's pointing to Highlander?

Subaru Highlander.

I'm not sure if I would hope that it's not.

I think it's actually been okay for them.

I agree.

I just know the Ascent has not taken off the way Subaru probably would have liked it to.

Subaru Ascent has failed to achieve escape velocity.

It has not ascended.

Indeed.

So, is this a new start?

By starting it, don't call it an Ascent or an Ascent EV.

And I guess, what are they going to call this?

Because the Subaru naming conventions for these EVs have been unique.

Uh, yeah, the one thing I find weird, though, and I honestly was surprised by the Ascent's

lack of escape trajectory, because they've never had a good selling three-row.

Like, they've never managed to make this three-row thing work.

The B9 Trebekah thing, I mean, that sold like ice to Eskimos.

I'm not sure if we're supposed to say that anymore, but you know.

Ice to people in the Polar regions.

Yeah.

And for some reason, Ascent is following the same trajectory, even though it's more what

Subaru shoppers wanted.

It's the big outback.

Yeah, the third row is not huge.

It's not enormous inside, but it didn't seem like Subaru shoppers wanted that necessarily.

They just wanted a third-row option.

And it's true to the Subaru form.

It uses a boxer.

You know, it looks like a Subaru on the inside.

It feels like a Subaru.

It's got all the Subaru safety stuff, etc.

Is it too tall to love the dogs in?

Is that the problem?

I don't know.

I'm wondering if in the end it was too small, or if maybe the engine was not powerful enough,

or something.

Or does the Subaru shopper just not actually want the three-row?

Yeah, is that just there?

Is it, you know, I don't know, is it a younger buyer who, which, well, we know it's not.

But are they not enormous families, right?

How many, how many lesbians with golden retrievers also have children,

or have enough golden retrievers to use all the rows?

To necessitate it, that much room.

And maybe it's unclear.

Maybe we have a, it's a really limited window.

I'm not sure.

It's a fair question.

It is a fair question.

I get, I don't think it's a huge demographic thing, like as far as incomes.

But, but yeah, they're not, they're not the same suburban shopper.

But Mazda had that same problem with CX-9.

It was, oh, well, this is too tight, and that's too small or whatever.

To which I always said, if you think CX-9 is tight,

then explain the Highlander, because Highlander sales, hundreds of thousands of units.

No problem at all.

And it's not roomy.

It is not a, not a, not a, not a big third row, not a big second row.

It is smaller or similarly sized on the inside too.

Guess what?

CX-9 and Ascent both.

All three of those have very similar sized third rows and cargo areas, etc.

And one outsold, not just those two combined, but a whole lot of stuff combined.

Highlander sold, you know, quarter million units easily.

And if it was truly a size problem, I mean, Cirento outsells some of those things too.

And Cirento's also small.

Yeah, I mean, Cirento's literally the tweener.

Yeah, it's literally a Highlander copy.

Like they were, Kia was like, Oh, everybody loves the Highlander.

Let's have one that's exactly the same size on the inside.

Yeah.

So if you were a listener, if you have ever shopped an Ascent, let us know down there.

Email us, hateautobuyersguide.com, leave us a voicemail.

Why did you not buy the Ascent?

And I guess tied with that, why did you not buy a CX-9?

Why are you not buying a CX-90 now?

And it's got to be something other than the quote, it's too tight inside because

a lot of these other things, I mean, Pilot's not exactly a Palisade.

No.

Pilot's not a Traverse.

No.

If size on the inside was the reason people would be buying that ID buzz.

I know, in that pretty white and blue.

Yeah, people would be, actually lots of people do buy Traverse as I shouldn't say that.

Well, yeah.

But even more people would be buying Traverse as I mean, Traverse should be selling like

half a million units a year.

If by the numbers.

If volume was actually the thing, I don't know, I'm super, super interested in that.

I will say tied with that though.

I will accept that the rise of Grand Highlander and the fall of Highlander is due to this size problem.

Yeah.

And that Toyota did not offer us an alternative before.

No, and I will say probably some of Highlander's success,

not just has been its reliability, but its engine options.

Mm-hmm.

But not really exciting.

No, no.

But again, on paper, if you look at the fuel economy there of that hybrid, fantastic.

And but Highlander, sure, but Highlander's sales volume hybrid split was always a little

less than half, less than half, just barely less than half of a quarter million units a year

is a lot more than Subaru ever sold of a cent.

So if you just go non-hybrid to non-hybrid, there's still a why.

Right.

A lot of why.

And well, I guess Highlander, Highlander had front-wheel drive options.

I think there is going to be a segment, probably a small segment,

probably a shrinking one that said, I don't want all-wheel drive.

So they wouldn't necessarily stop towards Subaru to begin with.

Yeah, but I'm just thinking to myself, if you cross all these things that Subaru didn't

off the list, no hybrid, no front-wheel drive model, which represented a sliver of Highlander

sales, right?

Even if you crossed off the list, no torque vectoring like Pilot had, things like that,

you still have a significant unexplained pool, especially given the rise of Subaru.

I mean, Subaru's sales have been skyrocketing over the last 20 years.

Their three rows have just never had that same sales trajectory that the others have had.

No, I mean, no argument there.

They still sell like a 1990s Subaru.

That is true.

Which is to say, slowly and eventually.

Not especially well, not hot off the press.

Well, with that done, we are now finally back at our home tell for the next few days.

So we will sign this episode off early.

Travis just missed his turn.

Oh goodness, I did.

There was the hotel, and we will see all of you later.

Be sure and send us those voice memos and questions, hateautobuyersguide.com,

and click those subscribe and like buttons, because that really does help.

Also, if you haven't five-star reviewed us on Apple podcasts, find us on Apple podcasts

and five-star review us, because we would love to have 100 reviews.

Yeah, that sounds great.

Yeah.

Nice milestone.

Yes, make them nice reviews if you could.

I mean, I'll take anything, but five-star reviews would be fantastic.

But we finally in the right corner, and it's time for you to leave the review.

And thanks so much for listening.

See you real later.

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