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Mike Allen Says Ethics Need to Improve in Auto Repair
Mike Allen Says Ethics Need to Improve in Auto Repair
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About this episode
Mike Allen joins the Jaded Mechanic Podcast to discuss the pressing need for ethical improvements in the auto repair industry. He shares insights on the importance of training, communication, and adapting business practices to meet modern demands. The conversation delves into the challenges of transitioning to new methodologies in repair shops, the significance of thorough inspections, and the impact of technician turnover. Allen emphasizes the necessity of empowering employees and fostering a culture of continuous learning to enhance customer service and operational efficiency.
Topics:
ethics in auto repair
training and development
communication skills
technician turnover
inspection processes
business methodologies
customer service
employee empowerment
Cars:
Mazda MX-5 / Miata
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Mike Allen owns Carfix Auto Repair and Tires in Raleigh, NC. He's also the President of the Automotive Service and Tire Alliance of North Carolina. He just started a podcast of his own, too! Confessions of a Shop Owner with Mike Allen. Check it out here!
Today, Jeff and Mike discuss how to treat employees well and learn from past leadership mistakes to start a thriving work environment. Mike also says that ongoing training and self-improvement are crucial for owners, technicians, and service advisors.
00:00 Training: One Size Doesn't Fit All
05:53 Streamlined Vehicle Inspection Process
09:04 Car Repair Estimate Process
11:34 Auto Repair Support for Complex Cases
15:01 Technicians Resist Changing Write-Up Process
18:09 Service Communication Issues
19:47 Diagnostic Decision: Cost vs. Certainty
25:09 Transparent Interview Process Benefits
27:16 Natural Leader's Journey
30:42 Generational Impact of IGO Expo
33:35 Expanding Perspectives through Dialogue
36:06 Commitment to Business Process
41:42 Disagreement on Shop Owner's Reputation
44:56 Changing Communication in Skilled Trades
46:45 Career Advice for Young Tradesperson
50:00 Balancing Growth and Workforce Priorities
53:08 "Top Technician in Industry"
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Filter:
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Technical
Too Afraid to Ask
Car
Mazda Miatas
"...k and he's not really looking for heater cores on Miatas, you know, so what we've done is we've got a spec..."
Training: One Size Doesn't Fit All
Streamlined Vehicle Inspection Process
Car Repair Estimate Process
Auto Repair Support for Complex Cases
Technicians Resist Changing Write-Up Process
Service Communication Issues
Diagnostic Decision: Cost vs. Certainty
Transparent Interview Process Benefits
Natural Leader's Journey
Generational Impact of IGO Expo
Expanding Perspectives through Dialogue
Commitment to Business Process
Disagreement on Shop Owner's Reputation
Changing Communication in Skilled Trades
Career Advice for Young Tradesperson
Balancing Growth and Workforce Priorities
"Top Technician in Industry"
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Kids these days. And it didn't work for them either. It's just the toughest ones made it through.
Yeah.
And that's not necessarily a good thing. It wasn't fun for you. It wasn't engaging for you. So if at that point in your life when you were the one being hazed, there had been an opportunity to go work in aerospace or to go work in HVAC or to go work in roofing and make twice as much money and not have to buy tools.
Yeah.
You would have done that, right? Of course you would have.
Welcome back, everybody. It's another exciting episode of the Jaden Mechanic podcast. I'm sitting here with a really good friend of mine, the infamous, the one and only Mr. Mike Allen.
When you gotta. Why are you gotta say infamous?
Infamous.
It has a negative implication.
No, outlaws are all infamous.
Would you call it outlaws are outlaws? They're criminals.
What do you call?
I mean, I guess I am an evil shop owner. No, I got that.
No, you and I kind of. We joked. We were sitting there at dinner the other night. You took me over to the chop post, and, you know, the big joke was that it's like you and I got off on the wrong foot. Some people would think it was like I wanted to punch you right in the mouth. Thanks to Lucas for you say, you.
Know why some people might think that is? Because that's literally what you wrote. I don't know who this asshole Mike Allen is, but I want to punch him right in his fucking nose.
I think what you said, which because I didn't know at the time you were doing a David Roman, where you were speaking, like, facetiously almost to be like, try to stir the pot. You know, I stir the pot a little bit.
It stirs conversation and maybe some thinking outside the box.
Right. Yeah. So since you and I were here last year, that astda. A lot of change for you.
Yeah.
Yeah. You. You came home. You didn't really come home, but you've. You've been supplemented. Some changes in your shop, things that we were kind of talking and I was asking, and you're like, it's doing really well. Yeah.
Yeah. So I'm a big believer in constantly seeking out training and trying to better yourself and your organization. And that's. I mean, ultimately, that's one of the primary jobs that I have as the owner of the shop is to, you know, we set the goals. Right. And then we hire the people, we equip them and train them for success. You know, I'm in charge of marketing Decisions, things like that. But otherwise I just need to empower quality individuals to hit the goals, Right?
Yep.
So in going to all these different training events around the country over the years, you see a ton of different methodologies being espoused and being preached as the only way to do it. And that's, I think, a big mistake that a lot of us make is the method that works for you at your shop and your business, for your team, may be great for you in your shop and your team. That doesn't mean it's going to work for the dude on the other side of the country. Right. Maybe you're a very rural operation. It's not going to work for the dude who's in a metro area or vice versa. Maybe you're a Euro specialty shop and people drive from 50 miles around to come to you. Maybe you're a generalist.
Right. So there's a dozen ways to skin that cat. You just got to find the way that works for you and just live that best life, man. But in, in light of that, I go to these training events and maybe I don't agree with everything that this particular coach or company spouts, but that doesn't mean that they don't have. That I can learn from.
Yeah.
And that I can take back and implement and, and become a better boss and a better servant to the community and a better operator. Right.
So because you talked like in your shop and we just before we got on, you got some really high performing texts. They're doing really well, Everybody's really happy. And you've got texts that are just turning and burning. Yep. Without doing the dvi.
Yeah. And yet one of the big changes.
We made and yet that whole thing like everybody talks about the dvi, such a critical point. It's so. Oh, you gotta.
Oh, it is.
And yeah. I was just gonna say, to clarify, it's not that your shop doesn't do them, but kind of break down for everybody how it's done.
So changed a lot of things in January of this year and it's. And we're recording this in September. So it's been nine months that we've been working on this process. And I would say we're like halfway there at this point. Right. So it's been a slow and painful process. But I went to training class by Todd Hayes, Auto Shop Answers. And again, I mean, there's a lot of stuff that they do that I'm, I'm not about.
I'm. I don't have any desire to be open seven Days a week.
Yeah.
It's just not something I want to do. But they do. But there are a lot of things that they do that I think have a lot of merit. And so one of the big things is that they talk about, and I realize it's totally true. If you give the same car to 10 different technicians, you get 10 different write ups. Unfortunately.
Yeah.
Maybe technician Joe is old and tired and his shoulder hurts and he's just tired of hammering on ball joints. And so ball joints got to be borderline dangerous before he's willing to write it up. Right?
Yeah.
Or maybe, you know, technician Bill is built like Brian Pollock and he's not really looking for heater cores on Miatas, you know, so what we've done is we've got a specialized team of people and all they do is the dvi. They don't do any of the repairs. All they do is become experts at the dvi. And so we talked about, you know, the process of building a car 120 years ago took weeks. Right. Because you had one person that built the car by hand.
Yeah.
And then Henry Ford revolutionized that by creating the assembly line. The assembly line.
Right.
And so you had specialist at very small tasks. And so we have a group of individuals that specialize in their set portion of the DVI and they get really good at it and really fast at it. And so we can, we can shake down a car, find the things that it needs, document them effectively, take really good pictures, really good videos, write it up really well, attach supporting evidence, build the estimate in 15 minutes. That's the ideal. We're really more like 20, 25 right now, but we're pushing towards streamlining to get to that 15 minute number. And then, you know, the things that are found and presented to the client, we're calling the client back with that estimate in under an hour, ideally in 30 to 45 minutes or less. And so instead of Ms. Jones dropping her car off at 8:00 in the morning and we're really busy and we know that we have it all day and we realize, oh crap, we never got to her car at lunch.
And so we give it to, you know, a technician at 1 o'clock and he takes him an hour to do the dvi and then he has to find the other problem. And then we got to track her down. We don't get in touch with her until 3:00 and we've had the car since 8.
Yeah.
So when the phone rings, she thinks that the car's done.
Yep.
And instead we're telling her that she needs to buy X, Y, and Z. Right.
So it'll be Wednesday.
Yeah. Yeah. So instead she drops it off at 8, and we call her at 9 and sell this stuff. And then at 10, when the technician finishes the last job he had, we're just rolling out with keys and a cart full of parts and skiddy up buttercup. And he's just. Every time he finishes a car, he turns around, there's another cart full of parts. Right. For the next car.
And so they're not wasting their time on the DVIs that they already hate doing anyway and that they don't do consistently. Like, you might have a couple of guys who are rock stars on that. You might have. A couple of guys are okay. You might have a couple of guys who kind of pencil whip it. We've all been there. Or maybe it's dependent on the day. I'm exhausted, I'm tired, I'm stressed out at the house.
The DBI didn't come out at the same level, but instead I've got a bay that. All that lift does is it raises cars up, does the dbi. It drops cars down. They back them out. And those are specialists. And it's much easier if the right side rack guy, all he's doing is raising them up, pulling the right side wheels, measuring tires, measuring brakes, shaking down suspension, putting them back together. Right. Make sure you torque everything every time, that kind of stuff.
Right. If that guy's out sick, it's way easier to replace that skill set.
Yes.
Than it is to replace a master technician when they're out sick doing their dvi. Right. So we simplified it. We made it faster, we made it better for the customer because they're not waiting all day to hear back from us. You know, there's more nuance to it. If somebody's in for a diag problem, maybe they get an NVA concern or something like that, then obviously that is the concern that Ms. Jones needs to be called about. But it's still going to get the full dvi, right.
Before it ever goes to the tech. Well, maybe it's a toe in and it's a. It's a no crank. Well, that's an exception. Right. Then you got to figure out what's going on with that before you can ever do that.
Right.
So there are always exceptions to the rule, but we want that to be the process that is experienced 90% of the time.
So help me out here. When, say we look at the car and they write rear main Oil seals, right. And now so it. It goes out to the. To who builds the car, who builds the estimate, and they write down the labor for that rear main seal. What if that situation of that person that did the inspection and built the estimate did the dvi? Then the person that builds the estimate for the lint, they just open up the book. Now, I know what you're gonna say. I have a matrix.
Okay, cool. So they open up the books and he says, It's 8.1 to do the remain seal in that car, whatever. And. But it's. It's rough. Like lots obs. Maybe it's got a custom exhaust piece in the way. That's gonna mean a lot more labor to be able to get it.
Other way to get the transmission. Things like that. Variables like that. A lift kit that's gonna have to take.
They might not realize there's a problem that a tech would realize.
Where does. Who comes up with the difference of hours to get quoted for that particular job? Or is it just you? You rely on the matrix and it is what it is, so.
Well, no, it's never is what it is. Right. So.
Good question, though.
No, no, it is. So that doesn't happen often, but it does happen. So it's a valid question. It needs to be considered. If we make a mistake in the estimating process, then we have to make a judgment call. Can we call Ms. Jones back and ask for more money and just say, hey, we made a mistake, you're not committed. We haven't started the job yet, but we realize xyz.
Yep.
And if we think that we can do that, then we'll go ahead and do that and we'll sell more time. Right. If it's like, nah. Like we were really stretching to get authorization on this at all, then we have to decide, do we want to do the job at all? If the answer is yes, we still want to do it because we want to take care of them, and we made a commitment. Then we just eat it and we pay the technician the additional time. That's why you have to charge enough that you're still profitable. And you can eat mistakes. Yeah, right.
Yeah.
So you can make. So, you know, everybody says, well, yeah, you got to make it right for the customer. Well, you also have to make it right for the text, because if you want good text, you can't fuck them over. So toolboxes have wheels for a reason.
Is there. But in that situation, is there allowable time for. Because you don't know necessarily who's gonna get that ticket when it's built because it isn't sold yet, right?
Correct.
So is there somebody that you can lean on to say hey, come over here, stop what you're doing for a second, come over here, look at this and tell me is there should be extra time or is that like the people doing the DVI's job or is that the person that's going to build the tickets job to consult? I got two guys that are going to probably pull a tranny in the shop. Should I talk to either one of them and see if there's additional.
So can we. Absolutely. Any one of them would be happy to come over there and you know, stick it, stick a head under a hood or under the car and give us their opinion on something. Also I have a shop foreman who can, you know, come over and help with that kind of stuff and answer those questions. But again, you know, we're talking about this is the, you know, 5% of cars that have some type of weird situation. And also our business is unique in that I'm, I'm in a semi urban upper middle class area. I'm not doing custom, I'm not doing performance. You know, we're not a diesel shop.
It's just, I got Hondas and Toyotas and Chevy's and Fords and it's pretty much just keeping it OEM and, and keeping it on the road for 200.
And rust is not a really big factor.
Yeah, we, we make fun of. I always joke about Russell, what is this rust thing that you speak of?
Brian and I send you pictures, right? You know, it's like, yeah, that's, you're like, well you know, it's gonna, that 10 year old, it's gonna happen that we're like no, that's a 2018.
One of the texts that we've got moved from Iowa. And he just laughs about how easy everything is here compared to what he's used to.
I watched a video of a guy and he reached up to pull an engine mount out of this 1818 GMC.
Six years old and falling apart.
And yeah, and, and he literally to get the bolts of the engine mount, he just takes a little electric ratchet and, and I'm like any. And it was a live non interrupted video. He didn't have to reach up there and break it loose with something and then do. He didn't have to push them. They just came out. And I'm like, I did the same job. And I'm like I had to heat those mothers and not burn down everything else next to it with the torch. And he's making it look so simple.
Frickin simple. Arsehole. Yeah, I, you know. So when you, when you implemented this process, did you have any like a lot of your texts had been always used to the traditional, I don't even want to say traditional now, but the, the for the most important, the coached method of you hand attack a ticket. Right. They do the dvi.
The answer to your question is yes. We had a lot of pushback.
Right.
And we had to turn over too. Right. I lost some really good technicians skill set wise because they just were really struggling with the, with the new methodology. And honestly if I put myself in their shoes, I would have been struggling with it too because it's not like it was a light switch and it worked immediately.
Right, Right.
Like I said, we're nine months in into trying to make this transition and I figure we're probably 50% of the way there. But at the same time I got so many. Last week was our best week ever and September is typically not a good month for us. And this week's about to be our best week ever. And September is not a good month for us. Right. We're about to have our best month ever on a 20 day month which half my staff was out for training today. So.
So it's working, it's working, but it took a long time. So like if I could invite those guys that we've lost back into the building and let them experience that, I would love to, but you know, maybe they'll call me one day, maybe they won't. That's okay. You know.
So the door's not closed to them?
No, I mean it's not like they, you know, went two fingers to the wind and walked out and you know, everybody, we parted amicably.
So what was the, so the struggle for them, where was it in what was.
So the dudes who were really good at doing a really thorough DVI and a really good write up, they knew that that was their meal ticket, like a good DVI and a good write up is how you get 5, 6, 7 hour average pair order. Right. And they were having to give up the key to their success to somebody else that they didn't fully have faith in that skill set. Right. If you're a rock star technician and you know how to shake down a car and find everything and document it really well and, and you've got service advisors that'll sell your good write ups and suddenly the boss comes in and says, hey, you're not doing write ups anymore. We're gonna let a couple of advisors and GS do that for you. How do you feel about that? You beg. That's some crazy.
No thanks.
Yeah.
And that's what I had.
And all the fat is going to be left right on the bone.
That's what they thought. Right. And honestly that was the case for a while because the guys had to learn how to do it. Right. And they had to learn because most of the people that are doing it are former technicians turned advisors.
I was.
So they know. Right. Or some of them are former technicians turn advisors. So they know about cars and they know how to see what they're seeing. But they're not current technicians. They're not guys that have been doing it recently. Right.
So because there's some technician or technicians, there's some advisors out there that couldn't point some of the parts on the front of an engine and tell you what they are and what they do, you're a little more modest about. But yeah.
So I would tell you that there were also in the early days that we were implementing this program and it probably still, I mean we're not perfect. It probably still happens today, but to a much lesser degree where something would get written up and sold and it would go back to technician would come and give me like it does not need this. We should not have sold this. And that's an awkward conversation when you call Ms. Jones back and she's approved $800 for whatever.
Yeah.
Hey, so sorry. I mean congratulations. You actually don't. It makes us look like idiots. But you can't go do the work that's not needed. Right.
Or you're not supposed to. Right. Mike, you don't lots do I. I.
Think I'm very fortunate that you know, I've, I've turned over a lot of people over the last 20 years but very few of them have or had to I think are truly unethical that are truly stealing from people.
I don't believe. And I've, I've argued that and that's why I get so triggered right. When I see the comments that come about and technicians are all crooks. And you know we have the ones that are.
Because there are just as many crook shop owners. Yeah, right. The ones that are work taught to be that way by crooked shop owners who were crooked techs that opened their own shop. Right.
So yeah, I genuinely believe I haven't met a lot that are so malicious, so evil that they're just like ripping the customer out that way, you know, misdiagnosis oftentimes and you can you, let's call it what it is. Sometimes if you do the misdiagnosis and you don't make it right, you rip the customer off for sure. You charge them for something that didn't fix the car.
And a lot of times the problem is incomplete. Diagnosis is because the service advisor doesn't do their job right or they haven't been trained to do it right, or the technician didn't write it up appropriately and the service advisor doesn't know all about cars. Sometimes it creates a perceived comeback or a perceived rip off. If the service, if the technician says it needs this and that's all they say, well, then service advisor says, well, that's on the technician. If the service advisor doesn't know any better. If the technician says, I know this is bad, I have to replace this and then I'll retest it and see if there's anything else going on or I know that this is bad, I couldn't duplicate the symptom, but this would cause that potentially. You know, if they articulate that clearly, then it's on the service advisor to do their damn job and articulate that to the customer. And if you say, Ms.
Jones, it never acted up, but this is worn out. And this being worn out can cause what you described, right? You need this no matter what and that's probably going to fix your problem, but it might not.
Right?
So we're going to, we're going to do what we know we need and then we're going to retest it. We'll let you know what we see. Right?
Because every technician out there says, well, I don't guess. Reality is sometimes, like in my whole career, there's lots of times I guessed because I couldn't duplicate it. Or I guess it's like, hey, that guess is 40 bucks versus like I can spend hours at $100 way back when, excuse me, Trying to make it up. How do you want to spend the money today? And as long as we've been always transparent with saying, this is not a guarantee. This is a guess, this is a try. This is a, we're going to go up to the plate and we're going to take a swing.
This is an educated guess based on the most likely, most common failure points or I remember multiple times when I was a service advisor for my dad, it was, you know, hey, Ms. Jones, you know, we've done X, Y and Z. We've narrowed it down to, with your symptoms, it's one of these two things. This is $2,000. This is $50. The next series of tests to determine which one of those it is is $200. Would you like me to do the $50 thing and see if it fixes it?
Mrs. Jones? If she's rational at all, like, yes, please.
Yeah. So we're going to do the $50 thing and if that doesn't fix it, then, you know, you need $2,000. Okay. It's just about clear. Almost all of the unhappy customer experiences and perceived comebacks come down to a failure of communication somewhere in the chain of possession between the customer to the advisor at the write up process. The advisor's not right. Asking the right questions and making the right notes for the tech. And you just get check noise on the repair order or some shit like that.
Right.
Brian Pollock, that's his favorite man.
I get text messages from him like with pictures of write ups and he's like, explain to me why I shouldn't go strangle this person. Yeah, right. Or between the technician and the advisor with the write up, or between the advisor and the customer with the sales process. You got those three steps. And if the communication ball is handled appropriately in every step of the way, there's. So fewer comebacks.
Yeah.
So fewer perceived mistakes or actual mistakes. But any one of those balls gets dropped and then you've got a customer, you know, online saying that they ripped me off, whether or not they actually did.
Now I gotta ask when is there, is there a process in place and lay it out for us if there is one. When, when, when a mistake is made. What's the first step in making it? Right?
I think it depends on the mistake. Right. The nature of the mistake, the severity the mistake.
So like a missed thing or a miss on the, on the inspection. We'll go back to the inspection.
Give me a scenario like, so like.
You were saying, say, say you call a radiator for a coolant leak. And then your tech goes over there and he reaches up there and he's taking the rad out. And he reaches up with his pliers and he grabs the lower rad clamp. That's a pinch loose and it's rotted and broken off and it's not really down here.
We don't have rust.
But yeah, you know what I mean? Right. And so really ideally what. Or maybe you see stainage coming down the side.
So it needed a $20 fix and we sold an $800 fix. Well, that's an easy one. Right? Because then it's hey, Ms. Jones, great news. You know, we, we started doing the repair that we talked about and it turns out what looked like a radiator was just this clamp was bad. Got a new clamp on there. It's holding pressure. You don't need to spend that money today.
All it is is the cost of the coolant.
So that was gonna be. My question is like, so you, you, your techs are all empowered with the ability to like put the brakes on.
Oh yeah.
Come out and say, hold on a minute.
Yeah.
And then, and then. So that's pretty cool. Because they're, you're empowering them and trusting them. That it's like. And again, we, you know, we got off on the foot of flat rate, but your guys still are incentivized, which is good. But they all are on the same page that it's like that, that rad might have been a four hour job ticket. The clamps, a 20 minute ticket right there. About sweet.
So. Yeah. So. So you gotta trust that you have ethical.
Yeah.
Bros in every position in your building. Right?
Yeah.
So if you have a sketchy tech, he's just gonna. I'm just gonna put a radiator in it. Nobody ever knows. Right. Well, that dude doesn't need to have a job anyway.
Yeah.
Right. Not in my business. But if he does, at the same time, we're not going to then pay him 0.0 for that. Right. It's like you say thank you. It's embarrassing. Sorry that happened. What do we owe you? He's like, I'll give me a half hour.
Whatever. Okay, half hour it is. We don't charge Ms. Jones for that because we're just kind of apologizing and chuckling with Ms. Jones. But you know, mistakes are, mistakes are the responsibility of ownership. Right. You know, if you make an honest mistake working on a car and you break something, I want you to tell me and not feel like you have to hide it.
Right.
And so I can't then expect you to. I've had technicians that were new to the company come up front. They're like, hey boss, I'm really sorry I broke this. Just take it out of my paycheck. And I'm like, are you kidding me? Take it out of your paycheck? What are you talking about, man? But they've obviously been scarred at other places of employment where that was the expectation.
Yeah.
And so no, I'm not going to blow up a motor. I'm going to take it out of your paycheck. You Might not get another one after this one, depending upon the level of stupidity that was played into it. And honest mistakes happen. Pattern mistakes are a bigger problem. That's a bigger conversation. But I'm not. If you make pattern failures, if you are a pattern failure, then I'm not going to expect you to pay for the parts.
I'm just going to expect you to get better or go away.
Yeah, yeah. So become a liability at that point. Yeah. So what is it? Do some people, some people, technicians, advisors or whatever, when they first see this process being happened and they're not used to it, it's not adopted yet, it's not the norm, is it? Is it? Are you having to go through more candidates to be able to fit the role well?
So the interview process right now, right, you have to show them what you're doing. They have to understand what's happening so that they come in with their eyes open. Right. And once it's working right, and everybody's getting, you know, a shit ton of hours and all the service advisors are making good money and, you know, everybody's happy and high fiving and stuff, that's a really easy sell. But back in April, when it was a train wreck.
Yeah.
And it was like, I promise it's going to be awesome. We just got to, we got to figure it out. That was harder. Right. And we had turnover. It was just. And they're, they're probably going to be people listening to this podcast that have worked for me in the past and be like, Mike's so full of. Or that guy's an asshole.
And yes, I've been 100% full of. In my life and I've also been an asshole before. But I promise I'm trying to do it right, you know, so. And I've ruined good employees by doing it wrong before. I failed to take advantage of good employees by not being a good enough boss before. But that's why I go to training. I'm trying to get better.
So that's, that's pretty brave of you to be able to. It's still. How many years that you.
20 years next month.
And as successful as you are to still put your hand up and go, man, I made a lot of mistakes. Like, we, we, we hear a lot of technicians go, oh, Brian, I broke a ton of shit, fucked up a lot of kind of stuff, right.
I fucked up a lot of quality people. So, like, I don't have anybody who's worked for me for 20 years. So none of the people that I had in the Beginning are still with me, the exception of my bookkeeper.
Okay.
So.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's not a direct relationship.
Well, she knows where the skeletons are, so. But you know, I, in part of this process, my Ops manager of 12 years left the company. And I'm pretty. I'm pretty sure he was, he was just like, we're still very cordial. Right? We still, we text every now and then and whatnot. And I'm pretty sure that it was my leadership that failed him that got him to quit. Right. Yeah.
That's probably a deeper conversation. I don't know if anybody.
Is that the gentleman we talked about one time that had the really nice lawn?
Yes. Yes.
Wow.
He's got an incredible lawn. Like, I think homeboy should go start a turf company. But I think he was a world class technician and then he became a shop foreman and then it became a general manager and then he became my ops manager over all the stores. And I think he was happiest when he was leading technicians in the shop and fixing cars and just being a cheer. He's a natural cheerleader. He's super, like, super friendly and super outgoing and engaging. And I just kept promoting him and giving him things that I didn't want to do. Right.
And not giving him the support and training that he needed to be able to execute on those things. And so his, his, his disgruntlement with that job was a direct relation of my failure to support him appropriately, I think.
So is the door shut to him?
No, I mean, I don't think. I think he's. He's super smart, he's super prideful. He will be successful in whatever he chooses to do next. I don't think he would come back.
Right.
But if he came back, of course I'd be open to it because he's a valuable dude. It'd just be a matter of what position he wanted to be in. So.
Yeah.
Wow.
Because 12 years.
Yeah.
Even though you say, like, I've never had 20, like, I've never worked with a shop that had somebody there that long, you know, like my longest tenure at any one place is not 12 years. It's like seven. And they tried to fire me twice in that time period. Right. So it's like when I say try, it was like I was. And then they make a phone call and bring me back. So it's not me begging. I'm not a beggar.
You know, I don't have to like, I know that the box has got a wheels on it for. For a reason. And And I'm good at what I can do and I can land on my feet somewhere else. But it's a situation of like, did I mess up? Oh, yeah. Yep. And frustrated and you know.
Yeah, you and Pollock have changed my. Kind of blew my mind like a year or two ago because I'm always, I'm listening to these podcasts and listen to these tech interviews and I'm like, why the fuck do you put up with that? Just leave, go somewhere else. Because I'm in a market where there's a fair number of good operations, there's a fair number of good, honest, ethical shops with really good benefits and pay. And I like, if I didn't treat my people pretty well, I think really well, I wouldn't have any fucking techs.
But see, we, Brian and I, we kind of put it down like this. 2% of the shops in the, in the industry are probably like you or shop owners, whatever. And here's the reality of it. Of those types of shops like you, 95% of them are in one state, it seems like sometimes. Right. So it's like if we all just came to duck it, we're all going to nc, you know, and are you going to Charlotte or Raleigh? Where are you going? Okay, I'm gonna go to Charlotte. Like I said, go to Raleigh because like that, that's how it would be, you know. And we've talked about so many things.
You and I have talked about how, how this became the kind of forward thinking hotbed of, of aftermarket, you know, excellence in automotive repair. And you go way back down. Like I think you can trace the lineage through.
Yeah, I think it's a direct result of, I mean we're here at the ASTA Expo right now, which used to be the IGO convention. IGO was an independent garage owners association and they've been around since the 50s. And so all through that time they were bringing trainers in and training up technicians and shop owners. And so you have these generational businesses like my dad was on the board of the igo. My dad was coming to IGO conventions and getting training. So. But you know, I'm five years old and he already is thinking about how to hire and recruit and retain and how to build benefits plans and how to mark up parts and labor and. Yeah, so it set me up so far ahead of, you know, a lot of, a lot of text turned shop owners.
They need 10 years to get to that point because they got to work their way out of the bay and then they got to work their Way off the counter. And then they can start thinking about going out to training events and everything else. And that takes time because they didn't have the Internet to go find these groups and podcasts and things like that.
So we, we think about that or we fail to think about that sometimes. How even IATN way back in the day was a door opener in terms of people that were like, hey, you sound like a really smart dude. I'm gonna email you. Are you gonna messenger? And you're gonna be like, you maybe should think about relocating to work with me. Before that, how did you ever find somebody outside of the state to come work for you unless they just happen to, to come there?
And it had to be dumb luck, right? But I also, I'm, I also have developed the awareness to realize that my frame of reference is pretty limited because I've never worked for anyone other than my dad and myself.
Yeah.
And my dad, by the time I worked for him, already treated people well and had good pay plans and believed in giving benefits and, you know, believed that if there's a mistake made, it's the owner's job to make it right, not the tech and not the customer. And, you know, so those types of things was a starting point for me. And so when I heard about, hey, I did this nine hour job, it only took me six hours and the boss cut my hours down to six because it only took six hours. Like, what the fuck are you talking about? What kind of bizarro world are you living in? And I had no idea that that was like common stuff.
Yeah.
And that's bullshit. But.
And that's what. So, I mean, I take pride in a lot now in the fact of who I, who I've got to meet, who I've, who have given me the platform, who I have network with now. Right? Like, we're talking absolute rock stars, rocks and killers, right?
They're amazing individuals. Out in that lobby right now talking.
I get goosebumps just thinking about who I'm even going to talk to tomorrow. You know what I mean? I just finished talking with Cecil. I'm going to talk to Becky tomorrow. Like, these are people that like three years ago, huh? Who what? Like Mr. Dutch. I remember Mr. Dutch from his days on IITN because, you know, we're Dutch. How he is.
If he can be somewhere and can be heard, you will hear him, right? Like, and I love the man. God. But now when I think about it, and it's like, so going back to my point, when somebody in your situation Says to me, what you showed me widened my perception. That is so powerful, Mike, for me to hear, because it's. I've never set out there to be like, in a. I'm trying to burn this industry down. It's always been about just like, okay, get out of your bubble, man. Like, you run out, you run a fantastic facility.
But guess what? I've. I've worked in crap. And, and you know, for somebody to be able to not know exactly what it was like because they just assumed I'm, you know, we're in our lane. We're doing good, we're doing it. We're doing it the right way.
Well, everybody thinks they're doing it the right way.
Yeah. But it's doing it the right way for, you know, that customer needs. I'm here to help them. And I'm going to go without profit, and I'm going to go without.
Well, you have to make enough profit normally so that you can go without profit when you have to. Right.
So a lot of these people are not, though, Mike.
Well, that is one of the things that leads shop owners and managers to make decisions like cutting it to six hours or whatever it might be, because they're not profitable enough to be able to go into the war chest and pull it out and make it right. You know, hey, I. We screwed up an engine. Well, we're gonna tell her that she needs an engine even though we killed it.
Yeah.
You know, that happens because that shop owner doesn't have enough money in the bank to buy that engine. And that's real world, man. So.
Oh, we see those posts in asog.
Yeah.
You know what I mean? And it's like. But they don't say. They don't say like, I'm gonna make the tech pay for it. Not anymore. That I was just in my. In my afternoon.
Well, finally the world's gotten loud enough that they know to be ashamed and keep that under the curtain. Right. Or behind the curtain.
We know that the second part of the story when they say is this engine got screwed up. We made it right. Or we're trying. How do I make it right? We know that that tech is history. You know, there soon to be a lot of the time. And I'm not trying to. This is not me saying that that shouldn't happen. The mistake in the first place shouldn't happen.
It comes back to process. But yeah, I, I see those posts and it's like sometimes my obtuse manner is I talk to people like, was this your first day in this group. Have you not heard people talk about this before? You're, you shouldn't even have to ask this. You know how to handle this because. And I keep coming back to it, it's like some people don't spend as much time as maybe you or I do thinking about this industry, right? They go home and like, I don't think like good business owners ever really go home and turn it off. I don't think you do. I don't think Lucas does. I mean, look at you on a Friday night when you could be doing a dozen other things.
You're like, let's have a Zoom meeting and just hear, you know, some, whoever wants to come on talk about that.
Those are great conversations.
Oh man, last week was like, it was fantastic. You know, like, I've hours. Yeah, you got off.
Yeah, I went to bed.
So I want to say here's what I loved is like I watch you and this is something that like really touched my soul. I didn't say anything at the time, but I remember I'm sitting there and it's the beauty Zoom. Your little son comes in, you like, headset off, kissing, a hug, and off to bed he goes.
You know, I'm very fortunate that I get to spend a lot of time with my kids already. And so my kids don't want anything to do with me on Friday night because they don't have access to any electronics during the week. They get electronics at 3:30 on Friday, right? And so like they're playing video games like fiends until it's bedtime on Friday. So they have no desire to hang out with me. But we do lots of stuff. So.
But you still get to like that, that just touched me because of like nobody else's child came in and interrupted the meeting. And there's like the guy that is really successful, you know, is not still at the shop and that's why their child didn't come in and give them a kiss good night or whatever. Or, you know, they didn't like, don't come and interrupt me. You, you know, where what the important things is what I'm trying to say.
You know, I think you don't, you don't get into this business to become a billionaire, that's for damn sure. So if you lose sight of the truly important things, then that's a you problem for any one of us that's listening to this conversation. Right?
So, but what about the idea that people are now coming in and saying, well, you, you can be a billionaire. Not, not a Billionaire, like there's such a millionaire used to be a thing. And now it's like. I don't want to say a millionaire is average, but when you're looking at what? Well, if you go and buy that house technically in one way, shape or form of another, in some parts of country, you're a millionaire. We turned around, sold. Tomorrow you'd be a millionaire for all of about five seconds.
Then the tax man comes.
Yeah, but should be. But you could say, hey, I was right. But it's, I'm. I'm so impressed now with, with the change that I'm seeing. Honestly, I'm like, you know where I've been? You know how this started for me and I was in such a place and then to just start to meet people like yourself and Lucas and like.
I had had a reporter from the Wall Street Journal reach out two days ago and wanted to do an article about.
Congrats.
What? He no longer wants to do an article after we talk about why. Yeah, it's fine. He had an agenda and I wasn't ringing the right bells for him, but.
Right.
He wanted to talk about why the cost of automotive repair has gone up so much in the last five years faster than the cost of everything else has gone up. And I started drawing it back to abusive labor conditions and poor working environment and low wages and no benefits. Created a supply and demand effect. In the long term. There's no more supply of technicians and now the demand's higher than ever. There's been a stratospheric spike in labor costs because there's a stratospheric spike in compensation.
Yeah.
And techs are wearing the pants right now. Right. They're driving the bus. They can go where they want to go. They can demand what they want to demand. And so I, you know, and I laugh sometimes because you've got some listeners who are not incredible technicians.
Yes.
But they hear all of this and they're like. And they come in and they interview. And I'm not a technician. So I have an interview where I'm learning about their personality.
Yeah.
And then I turn them over to one of my shop foreman so they can turn out, figure out if they know anything about how to fix a car.
Right.
And they'll come in. They're like, well, I need, I need $50 an hour with a 40 hour guarantee.
Wow, dude.
I'm like. And hey, if this the right guy, he's worth that, then giddy up, let's do it. Right. But. And it turns out that they do not demand that wage. Right. So some of you guys are worth every penny of that. And some of you guys are living a dream.
So. And, and in hindsight, some weeks I'm the rock star, and another weeks I like, probably couldn't. Like Brian said, I couldn't, like I could screw up an oil change. You know, it's, it's. We have ebbs and flows, man. And it's. I'm not out here trying to say that because my. One of my last guests, when we, when we talked about the shop that he'd been at, and the shop that he'd been at had a big social media presence.
Right. We were talking about this the other night and was like, well, he deserved to get fired. He. If he can't make it at that shop, there must be something wrong with him because that guy is like the bestest, you know, shop owner in the thing. And I'm like, first of all, I probably know some of the bestest. And he's not in it now, is it? Because he might be. He might be, but I don't know firsthand. So I don't make that judgment based on what it appears to be.
If you think about those super high performance shops are probably super demanding to work at and hard. So it's like, if you. What's your favorite sport? Hockey.
Mma.
Okay. Well, that's not a team sport.
No.
I'm gonna go to football. Okay. You know, I'm gonna go to the Patriots. Tom Brady Patriots.
Okay.
They were exceptional. They were a dynasty. One of the best teams over a period of years that have ever been in the NFL. And it wasn't good enough to be a nice dude to make that team. You had to be exceptionally good at your trade.
Yeah.
At your position or whatever it was. And so these shops that are just incredible, they don't have a lot of average individuals.
Yeah.
Because, you know, in the business coaching circles, they tell you that average kills your business. Because if there's a bad employee.
Yeah.
It's a bad employee. You gotta have to replace them. Right. If it's a great employee, of course you're happy with them. You just make sure they're happy. If it's an average employee, well, I'm not really thrilled with them, but they're not terrible. I'll keep them around. I got other things I need to do.
And they drag down the really high level performers. Because the high level performers see that average is not. Is acceptable.
Yeah.
And so they, they make your whole business average. And so a culture of Exceptionalism can sometimes be very demanding and that's what you see.
So because we talk about some of the younger people sometimes, right? And you talk about like the shops that are exceptional are, could be high, high stress, high anxiety, place to work. Then you hear them talk about, well, the young people are just like, they don't have any thick skin. We kind of talked about that last night. Like they were talking about my, my guest and he's like, he quit over how he was talked to. He wasn't, he didn't quit over money. He would quit over how he was talked to. Now he's got some social anxiety that causes him to have an absolute response to it. It's not a comfortable place to be.
Right. So it's legit. Do, do we have to in this industry change who we are, change how we've always done it, and do it because of this generation coming?
So two points to make that. First, I roll my eyes at kids these days don't want to work or kids these days are lazy. Every generation has people who don't want to work and that are lazy. And every generation has people who are nose of the grindstone, straight up grinders. Right. And, and, and they're out there. You just got to find them. So that's the first comment.
The second comment is, do we have to change how we communicate? Well, think about one of the underlying contributing factors to the skilled labor shortage across all trades right now is that for generations it was looked down upon to go to a skilled trade. It was, you're only successful if you go to a four year college. And so you got, you know, the stigma that was associated with the trades. And so the people that went into the trades already had this a lot of times a self esteem issue or they were bad communicators and they came up in a rough situation. Right. And so they just literally verbally or emotionally beat the shit out of the new guy. Right, Right. Hazed them really bad and made it a really uncomfortable working environment for the new guy.
And if you didn't know anything, what are you, a dumbass for not knowing that even though they've not been doing it for 20 years.
Right.
So you get multiple generations of that hazing, you know, figure it out yourself. No support environment. Well, that doesn't work for kids these days. Right. And it didn't work for them either. It's just the toughest ones made it through.
Yeah.
And that's not necessarily a good thing. It wasn't fun for you, it wasn't engaging for You. So if at that point in your life when you were the one being hazed, there had been an opportunity to go work in aerospace or to go work in H vac or to go work in roofing and make twice as much money and not have to buy tools, yeah, you would have done that, right? Of course you would have, yeah. But that opportunity wasn't available for you. Well, it is now because there aren't any of those people either in those trades. So if we want to fix the shortage problem, yes, we have to talk to him differently.
When I came off the stage and doing a roundtable today, a guy stopped me as I'm just trying to walk to the back to get my lunch and, and he's a guy that is, listens to the podcast. I think he's reached out to me before and mentioned just a comment here or there, what Everybody's like, I'm 22 years old, I'm in a shop with a guy that is like just a new startup. I think he's like 24 and we're having a hard time and he's like, I'm not getting paid what I need and I'm not. And he's here at aste, but I don't know if he's here under his own nickel to make this happen or whatever. I didn't, I was hungry and. But he says to me, he says, what do I do? He says, do I go to right now? I could go to another trade. He's, I'm thinking he's a couple years in. I don't have a whole lot of invested tool wise or whatever.
Do I go be an electrician? And I said, you have to remember this. And I've said it before and I'm gonna say it again. There has never been a better time to be a mechanic, a technician than right now. We have the advantage. So if you want to stay in and you're in a place that's on, you're unhappy, they're not treating well, don't stay there, go tomorrow and move your stuff because there's no point, there's no point in staying. You're in such a demand now that you don't even realize how much of a demand you are. Now the second part of that goes to don't blow a bunch of smoke up their skirts and tell them that I am the next Paul Danner or I'm the next Brian Pollock or I'm the next. Because you're not.
You're not. You could be, but right now you're not. You're two years in. Go to them and say to them, this is where I want to go. This is what I want my trajectory to be. Can you provide that for me? And if they say, yeah, then, then try it, take it. The only thing that the worst it can do is it doesn't work out. And I said, it's always.
What I say is you need to make yourself indispensable. You can't be just like you said, average. Strive to be every day to be like the next Mario. Super Mario Rojas Diagnostics.
Be. I talked about this with some of my team the other day is there's a guy on my team who. He goes home and he's a front. He's a front office guy. He's not even a tech. He goes home and he researches his craft and he practices his craft and he finds new ways to get better at what he does. He's the service advisor. Right.
When Brian Pollock goes home at night, he's reading case studies.
Yeah.
He's reviewing. He's helping to write stuff with Paul. He's, you know.
Yeah.
He tearing down modules and figuring out how to repair boards and stuff like that. All these dudes who want that are going home and playing Call of duty.
Yeah.
Or they're going to the bar.
Yeah.
And there's a time for relaxation. There's a time for unwinding. There's a time for going to the bar. But you show me what you spend your free time on, you show me what you spend your money on, I'll show you what's important to you.
Yeah, yeah, true. I, you know, and I used to think that it's like I used to say all the time, like all the things that I did to make myself better, that was on my time that I wasn't compensated for. But you know what? I'm. I've been compensated for it.
Well, my business coach, my business coaches, I'm with elite Worldwide. They're here. So, you know, I probably don't puff them up as much as I should, But I was bemoaning the fact that I needed to hire more people because the business is growing and I need more skilled individuals and I need a lot. Right. And he said, what is your number one priority right now? I said, it's probably hiring more people. He said, how many hours of dedicated time did you spend recruiting and interviewing this week? So the question is, outside of work, how many hours of dedicated time did you spend becoming a better technician this week? I shouldn't have To. I should get paid for that time. I think we can have an argument there.
You should get paid right now for the time that you have producing revenue for the company you work for.
Yeah.
If you're going to better yourself, then you become better, then you can demand more pay for the additional revenue you produce. Right. But I can't pay. Like, I'm. I got 20 people here this weekend. I'm paying them to come here and learn. Right. So, yes, I do pay for learning, but I pay for 40 hours of paid training a year per person.
Beyond that, that's not enough to become great at your task. Right. There's a book called Outliers that talks about excellence at any given trade or craft or whatever it might be. And it takes 10,000 hours of intentional, focused practice at your craft to become an expert.
Yep.
And so that's not hanging breaks. That's not 10,000 hours of hanging breaks. Do you want to learn how to be like Paul Danner? You want to learn how to be Brian Pollock? You want to learn how to be Jeff Compton? Gonna take some shit outside of work on your own time, of your own initiative?
Yeah. And you put me in that class and, and we're not there like, you know what I mean? Like, I, I, I can. It's not me going off shucks, but it's like they're. They're at that next level, and there's like, the saying goes, there's levels to this. Right. They're at the next level above me, might be a couple levels up there. It doesn't matter. But it's.
My fire has still not gone out to try and get to that level. I talk to Brian all the time, and I'm like, okay, help me understand this better. Like, I understood. I have a rudimentary understanding. Give me the Kohl's cheat notes on how to set this up. You know what I mean? And I've been so blessed to be able to have people.
Did you sit in Brian's class today?
I walked in at the beginning of it in the morning, and then I kind of had to go and do a recording and whatnot.
So everybody I talked to said it was amazing.
Yeah.
So it was Brian Pollock and Jim Kokonis. The name of the class was you don't know that. You should know.
Yeah, yeah.
And it was. I mean, those guys are good.
Oh, and. And Brian, well, you talked to him before it happened, and, you know, he was nervous as heck. He's like, I don't know what to do. And I'm gonna like. What do you mean you don't know what you're gonna. You're gonna kill it.
Yeah.
Like you are it. I say it all the time and everybody else says it behind his back. He is probably the smartest, most well rounded technician that I have ever seen. An industry bar none. You gotta remember when you and I've talked about it, there's lots of guys that can program and diagnose like him. But if you gave them an equinox and said it needs timing change done. And here's my egg timer. I want it done in an hour.
He'll have it done in an hour.
Like he. It's. There isn't somebody I've ever seen that is strong at both like he is.
Yeah, it's. He's a unicorn.
Yeah. And that's why we call him that drives him crazy because.
Well, he also dances around and has lots of rainbow sparkle stuff too.
So you weren't supposed to see those pictures. What's going forward for you?
I'm just excited about the expo going off so well and stuff that we got going on for the association coming up. And business is good on a hiring spree. So trying to. Trying to add to the team.
Yeah, we talked about that. You. You need to reach out to my people at promotive.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Actually been talking to them some already this weekend. But I'll see them at trade show tomorrow.
Yeah, I'll be hanging out at the booth a little bit.
Nice.
Yeah.
Repping the brand.
I'm gonna try if they have a T shirt that'll fit this.
Yeah, you should put on one of theirs.
Yeah. No, I could wear it around my arm maybe. But yeah, they're. They're tiny. And then we're gonna go to see them in Apex.
Yeah. Yeah. I get that is coming up. Right. So be in Vegas. I'll be there a couple days early for the TIA right to repair conference and then ASP national meeting and then Apex and then back home again.
Yeah.
So I don't travel as much as you guys, man. You guys are on the road all the time.
No, not me.
I bunch you in with Lucas and he.
He. He is like his air miles and I. I would have to live another life to get to my air.
I can't afford as many first class tickets as he flies in a year, man. I think crazy.
I think Dutch is helping him some kind of stuff. But I mean this will be my first time in Vegas. So I'm super excited.
Super self.
Yeah.
Lots. Lots of good food. Lot World's best people watching. Oh my God.
Yeah.
When you get there, because you're flying from the east coast, get there, go to bed immediately and sleep until like 3am and then get up and go out fresh and bright eyed and bushy tailed at 3am when everybody else is piling out of the bars and oh, it's the best people watching. It's just like the best and worst of America in the world. Maury Povich and all at once, man. It's great.
I'm looking forward to it. Well, I want to thank you for coming on. Really. I mean, I genuinely enjoy our conversations. Like it is it Considering where we started off, from the wrong foot to where we are now. Yeah, I couldn't be happier.
I'm so glad you never punched me.
I'm. I don't know, you look like you could throw.
I have a very punchable face.
No, but you look like you throw hands to.
But like, you know, been one fight in my life and I lost.
Yeah. So I didn't win them all.
All right, man, it's been fun.
Thanks. You too. We'll talk to you soon. Hey, if you could do me a favor real quick and like comment on and share this episode, I'd really appreciate it. And please, most importantly, set the podcast to automatically download every Tuesday morning. As always, I'd like to thank our amazing guests for their perspectives and expertise. And I hope that you'll please join us again next week on this journey of change. Thank you to my partners in the ASA group and to the Changing the Industry podcast.
Remember what I always say, in this industry, you get what you pay for. Here's hoping everyone finds their missing 10 millimeter and we'll see you all again next time.
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