The “driver market” is basically which drivers are available and which teams want them. Teams look at skill, results, and sometimes sponsorship value when deciding who to hire.
Term
personnel
Here, “personnel” means the team members—like mechanics and engineers—who work on the cars. The point is that both cars have similarly strong people behind them.
Term
performance in the curve
They’re talking about whether the driver’s speed and results get better over time. It’s not just “how fast are you today,” but “are you improving as the season and car setup evolve?”
IMSA is a major racing series for sports cars. Saying they don’t have the IMSA program next year means the team won’t be racing in that series, which changes their plans and money outlook.
Term
long term fit
They’re also considering whether the driver will fit the team’s future plans. It’s “will this partnership make sense over the next few years?”
Term
short term fit
They’re talking about whether the driver matches what the team needs right now. It’s basically “will this work immediately,” not just “will it be good later?”
A factory team is one that’s backed by the car maker itself, not just a private team. That usually means closer manufacturer involvement in the cars and strategy.
IndyCar is a major open-wheel racing series in the U.S. They’re talking about how the team’s plans and manufacturer support will work in that racing world.
Formula One is the biggest and most famous open-wheel race series in the world. It’s where teams and drivers compete for world championships, so mentioning F1 drivers reaching out means very high-level talent is paying attention.
The Indy 500 is IndyCar’s biggest race, run at Indianapolis Motor Speedway. Winning it is a huge deal and can make a team or driver attract a lot more attention afterward.
Long Beach refers to the Long Beach Grand Prix, a street circuit race that’s part of the IndyCar calendar. It’s known for tight corners and a track layout that punishes mistakes, so “could have won” moments there are especially meaningful.
Road America is a well-known race track in Wisconsin. It has a lot of flowing corners and elevation changes, so the car setup and driving have a big impact on who wins.
A “car opportunity” here means a chance to run a specific car entry for a team. The “66” is the car number, and the discussion is about who gets to work on it—like the engineers and crew chiefs.
A “decal swap” means changing the stickers/branding on the car. The point being made is that even if the look changes, the people doing the work (engineers and crew) can stay the same.
A “technical alliance” is when two racing teams cooperate on the technical side. Instead of working completely separately, they share know-how and resources to help the cars go faster.
Broadcast TV refers to the traditional television distribution of live sports content, where viewership and on-screen time are key. For racing teams, broadcast TV performance affects sponsor value because it determines how often the car and team are shown to viewers.
An in-car camera is a camera inside the race car that shows what the driver sees. Teams use it to make better race footage for TV and sponsor branding.
Person
Colton Hertha
The host is talking about a specific IndyCar driver, Colton Hertha, whose pay was unusually high compared to others. They use his contract as an example of how one big deal can push other teams to raise salaries too.
These are parts of a contract that can raise a driver’s pay. “Kickers” are extra bonuses for doing well, and “escalators” are pay increases that kick in later or when certain goals are met.
Felix Rosenquist is brought up as an example of a driver who still had room to grow. The point is that teams try to secure drivers like that and give them chances, even when salaries are getting more expensive.
The Ford Taurus is a regular passenger car made for everyday driving. It’s designed to be practical and affordable compared to very expensive specialty cars. That’s why it can come up when someone is talking about budgets and realistic options.
The DeLara IR28 is a new IndyCar race-car chassis that teams are planning for. A chassis is basically the main frame the rest of the race car is built on, so when a new one is coming, teams have to plan big purchases and budgets.
A “Speedway car” means the race setup geared toward oval tracks. Ovals are different from road courses, so teams prepare the car specifically for that kind of track.
A capital call is basically asking investors or partners for extra money. In racing, it’s used when there’s a big upfront cost that has to be paid before the team can run.
Daytona refers to Daytona International Speedway in Florida, a major venue for prototype and endurance-style racing. Mentioning “Daytona prototype days” is a way to anchor his budgeting approach to a specific era of racing where teams plan costs over multiple years.
A “charter” is basically a team’s guaranteed spot in the IndyCar series. The episode is about how those charters can be bought/sold and how that changes what teams are worth.
Penske Entertainment is the business organization that runs major parts of IndyCar’s setup. In this segment, they’re the ones putting the new charter system into place.
A “franchise system” means teams have a more guaranteed, rights-based status in the series. The episode is saying the charter value is hard to know until the first one actually sells.
RLL is a racing team abbreviation. They’re discussing whether RLL might run fewer cars full-time, which would affect how many people the team employs and how it operates.
This means the team would run two cars all season, not just occasionally. The discussion connects that to staffing—how many people can stay employed year to year.
Concept
NASCAR model
The NASCAR model refers to how NASCAR structures ownership, team economics, and long-term value creation for teams. Here, it’s used as a comparison point: the speaker says NASCAR has helped owners despite racing often being financially negative in the short term.
Residual value is what something is expected to be worth later, after you’ve used it. Here, the point is that even if racing costs money today, the team’s value can still grow for the future.
Concept
building value
“Building value” means making the team worth more over time, not just winning races. They’re saying the business can still improve even if racing itself isn’t profitable every year.
LIVE
Mr. Shank, welcome back to the podcast. You've been brother since year one. You've been part
of the podcast show here since almost day one. So yeah, thanks for always being the voice
of reason. And honestly, you get us so much smarter, whether it's the business side, the
operations side, driver market wise. So I just thought it'd be a great time to catch
up since you have just confirmed Marcus Armstrong, going to be staying with the team, getting
that promotion to that number 60 of yours, the one that's really been that big number
you've brought with you in every series you've raced. You're looking for drivers though to
backfill your echo and any 500 winner and feel extrose and fist bunch of stuff for us to talk
about. So appreciate you a taking time. But why don't we start there? You've told me, man, the
amount of phone calls you've been getting and outreaches since that number 60 car became
available. We know that'll be the 66 next year that's open. But just tell us what it's been
like receiving unparalleled interest from throughout the world to want to drive for you.
Well, glad to be back here and lot to talk about today. The first thing that I want to say,
and I got myself in a little bit of trouble when we announced Marcus last week, our two cars are
equal cars. The 66 from a personnel. We've got great people. The teams aren't swapping. We're
simply doing a decal swap. 60 has traditionally been my personal number since I've really
started kind of making ways in sports car racing back in 04 and stuff and after that a little
bit. But so there's no difference. We don't I don't want people to think that one has a
priority over that's number one. But number two, it's been a really interesting experience. We
didn't ask for this to happen with Felix. We tried everything we could to keep Felix. I've
read some stories are absolute bull. How this went down, which I just giggle about. But that's
okay. I like that people are talking about us in any case. The truth is, is that Jim and I tried
very hard to keep them. Jim and I talked about it every single day, almost every other hour,
your co owner there. And we really tried to do it. It just wasn't meant to be. So when this
happened, and this all kind of came out, the influx we've had of, you know, actually, in that
moment, our thought was, okay, we know we want Marcus, let's get Marcus situated. Everyone saw
that news last week, which I was really happy about. Let's at least get one of the cars locked
down here. And then we can take some time and understand what the market is and who's out
there and who's available. And that's the process we're going through now, today. Now, since that's
happened, the, the amount of input we've had from so many people interested in driving the car is
phenomenal. That's great. And it really allows us to look at it from every department. What does
that person, that particular person bring to the table and allow us to really analyze it? Because
what's most important at the end of the day? Number one for me, Jim, Jim and I sometimes debate
this, but not all the time, for me is performance in the curve that we're on right now, which is a
very positive curve performance wise, not to get off that bus. We want to stay on that bus. And
so making sure we have someone in there that can either do it immediately or do it a year or so
from now is one of the questions. And whether we do that or not, you know, and how we do that. Of
course, we have a couple of interesting things coming up from us, you know, from a company
standpoint, we don't have the IMSA program next year, which will be a lot different revenue
projection for us then. And of course, we have to buy new cars. So all this gets wrapped up into a
bundle. And how does this work best for MSR? And we could spend two hours on all that. But those
are the inputs that we're, Jim and I are taking in to make some decisions on a potential driver
for us. And I think that's the fascinating part to delve into a bit here, Mike, which is this
isn't just you, Jim Meyer, son Tim Meyer, all of you, Adam Rovazzini, who runs the team for you,
you know, in so many ways, but this isn't just you guys sitting around saying, let's put names on
a board and pick the one we like best. It's so many of the bullet points you just mentioned,
short term fit, long term fit, the commercial side. Hey, you're going to become Acura slash Honda,
since you're still in the Acura world in the IMSA side, but you're going to become the factory
team here in IndyCar on the Honda side. So that's adding a third car coming up new cars to like,
as you said, there's a lot to think about here and deciding who's going into that 66. So why don't
we stay there for a moment? I know that soon after this became known that Felix was leaving,
you'd said, yeah, you know, we probably have a top three list that we're looking at. He recently
suggested it might be up to a dozen now, whether it's Formula One drivers calling you across the
board and you speak to that. And I know you're not in a position where you're wanting to name
names, nor should you, but the caliber of folks you suggested are reaching out with an interest to
be part of your program. That's also a bit of a cool thing, I believe, right? Like you're seeing
more interest now from top caliber drivers than maybe ever, which I guess you'd have to expect
after winning the Indy 500. Yeah, I mean, definitely for sure. Without question, it's a great proud
moment for us that people think enough of us to want to come and be a part of what we're doing
here and think that we can do a good job, which is always, it's taken us, you know, eight years to
get to this point. We've only won two races, unfortunately, but they're the two biggest
fortunately in the world. So we're eternally grateful for that. And that's the gift that never
stops giving. So we're great for that. But in general, if you just look at how we run,
especially this year, we could easily had three wins. You have Felix at Long Beach,
you have Felix at Indy, and you have Marcus at Road America. These are three times that we could
have easily won the race. And we haven't been able to say that about a season before, you know.
And so I think that speaks to the momentum of where we're at. I think people recognize that. I
think we're a good team. We're decent people, for the most part. We're good to be around. We're
loyal. We try to do what we say we're going to do. And we're really, really concerned about
performance and those attributes, I think, have people thinking about us and wanting to be a
part of what we're doing here. Let's talk about that 66 car opportunity now. And you said it's
a decal swap, the personnel on whether it's your crew chiefs or engineers. I mean, they're all
phenomenal. This is a cool promotion to me in one aspect with Marcus insofar that he came in
and been with Ganassi a little bit, right? Shown some promise kind of came here through
this cool technical alliance between you and Ganassi. Wasn't totally sure how this was going
to pan out. While at your team with that great Ganassi technical support, this kid's leveled up
and leveled up and shown that he is worthy of not just a contract extension, but putting into that
again. To me, that number 60 of yours, I've seen that forever across an array of series and it's
always been your lead car. So knowing that he's gotten the vote of confidence to be hired in a
multi-year contract, that's a big deal. So tell me what you're thinking about with the 66 car.
Wouldn't be surprised if some commercial support would certainly be appreciated with that car,
but you already have a young driver who's leveling up. Do you look more towards a veteran who might
be able to help commercially? Do you look at starting fresh with somebody? Where does the mind go?
Goes in both places. And literally before we got on here an hour ago, I was talking to Jim Meyer about
it and how we trend and do we go with a veteran like person or do we invest in the future? Ultimately,
we're trying to beat Alex right now. Everybody is. And how best can we position ourselves to do that?
You have people that have been in the series that look like they have some potential and maybe could
do good things with us. You have people, young people that are coming from either F2 or Indie
Lights that look good to me, certainly deserve an opportunity. What I call the freshman year in
Indie Car is always a horrible thing for the most part. Everybody has that first year blues
and it's just almost unavoidable. The last person I could think about was probably Robbie Wickens.
If I think about it, someone coming in and being able to put W's right away. You think about
Lungard came in and qualified fourth for his first race, but didn't finish that well in that race,
but came on after. It's just this freshman thing that you have to deal with if you choose the
young or inexperienced route. And I don't care if you're bringing in an F1 person, an F2 person,
whoever you bring into this series, in my opinion, that first year is really, really tough.
So we have to balance, can we put up with that? Can we deal with that? Which maybe we can
because of the upside they potentially bring, whether it's commercial partners or it's just
pure speed and pure talent, what we want to be. And we're going to take the next couple of weeks,
three or four weeks to really kind of decide that. But every week, my core group, my four or
five of us get together in that group who mentioned, and we talk about, has anything changed?
Knowing what we know now or watching people evolve in indie lights, we're watching people evolve in
our series. What looks best for us? And then finally, commercially, how is MSR doing commercially?
A lot of our sponsors are up for renewal this year. It's all trending positively. But where do
we think we're going to land on all of our partners today? Does that allow us more freedom if we
think we're at where we need to be goal-wise to raise money, to allow us to do pure performance
and pure experience? Does that allow us? And those are the things we're deciding, and they're
fairly stressful because we want to not derail ourselves. And there's a lot to it as we've
spoken to so far. Touch on one element you mentioned there before we move to the next topic, Mike,
and that is you, Tim, Jim, Adam, Jason, give it, run down the list. All the veterans who are really
going to be offering great input. As racers, I'm sure you look at this driver, that driver, go,
my gosh, if we could have them, that'd be amazing. But to your point with sponsors,
you know you got Armstrong in the 60 car. That's great. That's locked in. But you then have to talk
to sponsors as well and say, hi, you're resigning, reinvesting. What do you want and need if we did
go with a pup? Like you said, that first year, probably some flashes, but also some crashes.
We're not expecting much. Are you willing to go along for that ride? Knowing 2027 might not be the
one where you get all the headlines you wished. Just tell folks about those conversations, brother,
because this isn't just a race team saying we like that person sign them in total isolation.
Let me tell you why that everything you just said there, why that's so important. What we know
about broadcast TV and what's how our partners get seen is that you got to run up front. If you're
not running up front, the numbers that to support the ROI for these groups, don't get where we need
to be. It's one of the tools that we are measured by. So for instance, if we choose to go with a
young person that's going to struggle and then do well, then struggle, you know, we're going to fall
off the ROI beam, right? And we've done it before, right? We know that the better we do, the more
we're seen. Now we can double down and guarantee ourselves sometime by purchasing an in-car camera,
but and that gets you a glimmer. You know, they have, they guarantee you that they'll use your
in-car so much per race. So there's ways around way around it, but the best way to do it is to do
well. So how are we serving our partners best? One of the tentacles is television. This tentacle is
very strong when they're in front of their board trying to understand what, you know, how is racing
benefiting us. This is a very strong piece for us. So it's just not, are we doing a veteran or a rookie
and we know the rookie is going to struggle and we're not going to be up front and we know we're
going to lose a little ROI for our partners potentially. We just know this, right? So that
weighs into the decision, right? Personally, for me and the way I grew up and didn't get tons of
opportunities, I like the idea of giving a young person an opportunity. That's just me, okay?
So I always lean that way a little bit just naturally and I have to upright myself when I
sit here now. I'm doing bills here today, paying bills today, right? So I'm living it right now,
tweaked up about, you know, money. We have to balance this very carefully and that's,
that's what we're doing. Let's move on to another component here in the business side. And again,
you and I talk the backside of this, the business side more often than we do almost anything else,
but so driver salaries, right? That's something that you have to be always mindful of.
Racecar drivers are never paid enough. They always want more. They always deserve more.
You could also completely break the IndyCar financial model if they received everything we
felt they deserved. So there's always that push and pull. But since you came into the series here,
what a decade ago or so, hired some really impressive drivers, right? Indy 500 winners,
Eleo Pajano, some newest drivers who've come up, Jack Harvey and so on. Where are we at, Mike?
I know you're not going to name names, but where are we at when you look to say 2027, 2028,
whether it's the high caliber free agent market to those who might be bringing budgets? I've heard
12 and a half million being offered by a paying driver. I've heard 15 million like crazy numbers
in both. But tell us about the growth you've seen from when you came in here mid to late,
2010s to now. Is this doubled? Is there a new average level for a top tier pro
teams are having to come up to fund? Where are you guys at?
Well, there's a lot of answers and all that. The money like the 15 million, those are drivers
bringing their sponsors to a team, right? That's different than them being paid a salary. Now,
some will derive a salary out of that, or they'll take it as net to us, whatever that number is.
So that's one thing. That money, the money that the other driver's sponsors are bringing to teams
is higher than I've ever seen it. And I think that speaks back to where we're at as a series right
now and the emerging, the emergence of where Andy Carr is today, that the run we're on and we just
saw the TV numbers yesterday last night get announced from in Ohio. We're just on this great
upward swing right now that just speaks to our series. So the driver salaries for drivers that
are getting paid directly from the team, we've kind of done it all. And I think it's kind of,
it's not topped out yet. Well, the elite people that have been here and delivered wins and
championships are still making kind of three to 5000000 a year, as far as we know.
The base salaries though, the model to me is shifting a little bit. The model to me is going
for me performance. I believe that the ultimate, you take a guy like Pellew who just deserves a
big base and big bonus. He deserves it. He's earned it. Guys that are still coming up or guys that
have not quite got there or chasing it hard, I believe deserve a good base, a reasonable base,
but a lot of potential upside in performance. A lot of incentives, a
a lot of kickers. I believe at escalators, right? The things that can take you to another level if
you win or if you do X or there are so many ways that we do it now. So for me, the new model for
me is a reasonable base based on your experience. And then a bunch of kickers to help you incentivize
you to do well. A lot of these guys don't need it. But if they tell you not, it's not about the money,
they're f***ing lying. It's always about this is the number one thing Jim Myers taught me.
Whenever it tells me it's not about the money, it's always the money. And so
we try to provide a way that they have a path to that. And when we budget, we budget kind of a
mid-level, you know, our driver's side is going to be X, but we know they're going to hit some of
the bonuses. So we kind of pick it midway. So we know this is what we think we'll spend. But I think,
you know, when the team wins, the driver's one, everybody gets a piece of that. And that's what
we're going to. And I don't know if that helps the answer or not yet. No, it doesn't. And I'll add
a little bit to that. So it seems like, I mean, we've known Colton Hertha has really been the
outlier, right? He's the first one who got basically a Formula One inspired salary kick,
while still an IndyCar, but with the goal that you're going to be going to F1 with us very soon.
That didn't necessarily happen. But then all of a sudden you have a driver rumored six and a half,
7000000 per year, who's now an IndyCar for multiple years earning that. And the rest of the
market is saying, well, hey, I'm at least as good achievement-wise. I have as many wins or I might
have championships, or Indy 500s. And if he's getting that number and I'm at whatever it might
be half, well, we're going to need to correct that. And so it seems like about three years ago,
the average number for not necessarily huge stars, but those definitely top 10,
way more drivers than the top 10 in that two and a half 3000000 kind of base
with some of those kickers and escalators in there. And I've only heard that number continue to grow.
So now I'm hearing more drivers in that 45 range, five plus. I'm asking
if they were to leave a year from now or more, could be above that Colton heard a number, which
very few teams can obviously afford. What does something like that do for you and the Meyers
where really good team, big results so far at the biggest race, strong commercial package,
but if some other teams who maybe are sitting on crazy budgets are able to keep leveling
driver salaries up and up. What does that do for you trying to maintain a little bit of financial
sanity? Does that throw things out of balance for you now or in the future? How do you maintain
sanity there? It's difficult. It's difficult. But this is reality. This is life. There's always
going to be someone come along with more money or bigger sticks. So we try to live in the world of
people that haven't realized their full potential yet for whatever reason, live in that world,
get them locked down and give them opportunities. Felix Rosenquist is a great example. He was,
in my mind, on the downswing at McLaren ironically enough when we came along and took him up.
They said to him, we don't want you anymore. We're going to put you informally. Oh, no, we're not.
He was unstable. He didn't know if he had a job or not. It was a mess. And he chose to go back
to that, by the way. So nothing there said. But that's the perfect kind of person that we knew
had a ton of speed and could help us get to the level because we had such a horrible 2023
that at least if nothing else, we're going to get up and we're going to qualify in the top six,
and we're going to, which we did. And then we finished 13th or 12th, I think,
his first year with us, and then sixth last year, and we're six or seventh right now. So
everything Felix, we needed, we got. And that was a guy, again, that's that guy that was at a,
what was, you know, is a big team, a big budget. They can do whatever they want.
Wasn't finding his way there at the time. And we thought he fit into what we did. That's the
kind of lane we live in, if that helps at all, right? We're trying to find that underutilized
or person that has it, but just not quite in a situation where they can show it. That's where
our sweet spot is. And we can pay people. We pay people a lot of money, right? And have in the
past. But we are not, we are not going to be a Taurus, a TWG or a McLaren that has unlimited funds,
what appears to be as unlimited funds to spend on drivers. We kind of got to do it the old
Midwest way, you know, a lot of bushlight, cases of bushlight, a couple more things here,
Mike, for let you back to your day. So you mentioned Fox saw that big number again, that rating coming
out of Ohio. I wish we could have the World Cup every year on Fox, whether it's a lead in or on
the back end of a race. But, you know, I've spoken about this and I'm curious now, now that this
season, there have been so many million plus average viewer deliveries for these races.
It's one thing to see them, they feel good. It says Indy cars on the rise getting bigger,
more people are what we know that commercially, though, is this something you, Jim, Tim have been
able to convert, start to convert into real, whether it's new money from new sponsors,
or the potential for more from existing ones saying, yeah, that return on investment has increased,
let's increase the amount we're going to spend for next year. Absolutely. This is all helping a
lot. Of course, it helps when we won the Indy 500 this year too. But Jim and I just were talking
about this also, we're getting this great draft from the World Cup that we're not going to have
next year. So what's our job now? Well, our job now is to sit down with Eric Shanks and say, okay,
we know we got this great draft, the best drafting partner we've ever had in a television world,
in my opinion. And how do we get this to happen next year? I think we get a little bit of draft
even next year from people that found out about us through this, right? But still, we're going to
lose some momentum that way. You know, what are the creative things we're going to do going forward
to keep this? Because the answer is absolutely it helps our partners, absolutely it helps us when
we're sitting down for renewals or new people that have never done it. It's just great stuff, right?
But my biggest concern is how do we keep it going? And Jim and I were just talking about
sitting down with Eric Shanks and all of us, not just us, but all the team owners need to get with
Eric and talk about creative, really mega creative things we can do to keep rolling this forward
next year. But it is such a big help to your point. It is such a big help to get eyeballs on the product
because ultimately, whoever we're selling has to justify it to a board or to a CEO or to an owner.
What are we doing here? How are we getting return on this dollars? And all this is
tremendously valuable to us. Two more items for you. I want to talk about 2027 costs.
Knowing that there's a brand new DeLara IR28 chassis coming down the pipeline,
going to be going live in 2028. So if we're talking average annual budget per car,
realize some teams a little more, some a little less, but on average, don't think I'm
describing it incorrectly. It's about 10 to 12 million. Again, if we're talking kind of the median,
so we're going to need to find that per entry next year.
Themes are going to need to buy at least two brand new 2028 cars, your primary.
You're going to want to get your Speedway car in early and start loving on that as early as you can.
You're also going to probably want a spare for your primary chassis. So we're looking at about
three cars per entry. Right now, there's 25 entries. Going to be adding a couple more with
Chevy and Honda factory stuff. 75 to 100 new DeLara's needing to be acquired.
Can you talk to folks, Mike, about you need to find a budget to go motor racing with your two
full-time cars next year in that kind of range that I mentioned. And you need a budget I've
heard anywhere from a million to 141 point five all in ready to go per chassis.
That's a lot of money to find, brother, for both next year to compete and to test and to get ready
for the year following with these new cars. Tell folks how you do that, man. Where do you make this
happen? Yeah, this is a great question. So we are, Jim and I talk about this a lot. So we anticipate
having to spend five to 6000000 dollars, a capital call, five to 6000000 dollars to
buy cars and equipment to get going by the time we're ready to run. And we think that's about
the right number. So how do we do that? There's a couple different ways. We can sell the cars we
have now. Now, most of them don't have any value, but I have two cars that have a lot of value
that have won the Indy 500 at a high level. So those will have some effect on, you know, raising
capital for that. That's a good thing. The other thing is, is I believe that the Penske Group
will come up with a financing plan potentially in house, which is a great, great thing that Roger
May, we don't know detail. I don't know anything about it yet. We've heard about it for a while,
though, the possibility of the series helping to facilitate this. And then the last bridge of hope
there is that I just go get traditional bank financing for the rest of it. And that over the
next three to four years, it'll be our number one target to get the debt off our books. So we will
have a debt. We'll have to build that into the budgets. And that's just life, you know, that's
small business life. And but we got to have the car and the equipment. And so we're going to figure
it out. I always think of a race car for three to four years financially. If I back in the Daytona
prototype days, I would put in the budget, you know, number for three to four years to write the car
down. We're fortunate enough in that era to run those cars 10 years. This one's 15 years. So you're
getting maximum you can out of this. So it's like anything else, we're going to have to go buy some
equipment. And we're probably going to have to finance some of it. And my number one goal will
be and I guarantee you it'll be my wife's number one goal here, we'll pay that debt off. And we'll
double down on that to get that over, you know, by 20. Theoretically by 2029, Marshall, I hope
we're totally clean on new car debt. And I know you're not the most possession sentimental guy,
you keep really cool things don't get me wrong. But is it going to be a hard conversation between
yourself and MB, your wife, Mary Beth, to sell your Indy 500 winners? How do we make sure those
stay in the shank family? Because Lord, I'd rather you have them than not. Yeah, you know, that's a
great question. I've got I'll have the pace cars. So from the year but no, I guess I guess I've got
my head okay with it, not having them. Although it just listen, I've got I've got, you know, 100
people out here working now will have probably 60 next year. That's my number one concern. How do we
keep those guys fed? The way we keep those people minimum fed is by operating. And if we need to
sell those winners, we'll sell those winners. And I'll keep two of the other ones and brand them
to make it feel better. So they look like them. So all right, fair point. Let's close on this
charters. So this being enacted by Penske Entertainment starting in 2025, effectively
franchise system, right? So you with your two charters, other two, you've got a third one coming
in through Honda with the manufacturer one, but we've yet to have a sale. And the big question,
just like when NASCAR issued theirs, until the first one gets sold, nobody knows the value of
what they have, feel pretty confident. The rumor has been going around for about a month. Well,
it's been going on for a year, but within the last month, been hearing fairly likely RLL might be
downsizing to two full time cars. We'll see if that ends up happening. But the rumor has been
they're going to sell that third charter. How excited are you? And do you think your other
team owners are to potentially have an actual number, whatever that ends up being to know what
yours is worth? How would that change things for you? Positive, negative or otherwise?
It really doesn't change anything for us. It just solidifies what we're doing here for sure.
And two years ago when Jim Meyer was really the first person to go to Roger with saying,
hey, here's a plan on how we can do this. It really, really justifies on how powerful tool it is
for us as owners. Now, what everyone's got to remember is for me personally, this is all I have.
Everything I've done for 30 some years is all about this. And it's not like I had a pension
or I had just recently, you know, in the last 10 years, I had a retirement account, right? So
this is all I have one more said and done with it. So it's really, really important to me and my
family. I think it's awesome. If you look at the NASCAR model, what it's done for NASCAR and
those owners over there, we for years and years, we lose money in the car racing. We're lucky to
get it to push. So this is a little thing in the background operating saying, okay, you might be
losing some now, but that thing's still building the residual value down here. It's tremendous.
I don't know the detail of the one trading hands yet, but I've heard what everyone else has heard
and I think it's pretty reliable. So when that finally does close and we get to find out,
it just makes me for me personally just exhale a little bit that there might be life after racing
for me and my wife potentially. And otherwise my head's down. We're just going to try to keep
building value of our team and our series together. And it looks like we're going and doing the right
thing so far. You have any guesses on what you think a charter might be worth here in the Lord's
summer of 2026. I know you'd love to say a trillion dollars, but if you had to, to guess,
what do you think? I mean, I keep thinking somewhere in the 10 to 15, but I don't know if that's
accurate. I would say that's probably where it's going to land, I think. And that's a big window,
but that's the window right now. I think it's somewhere in that zone, which is really good
from where it was two years ago, which was zero. So, well, if you're having to go to a bank and
seek loans again on the how this could potentially be a value, at least you could have that as a
potential marker of value as well to show folks. So, as always, drinking from the fountain of
business knowledge from Michael Shank. Let's do more of these, man. Again, I don't want to give up
too much, but you and I talk this stuff all the time. It's just we rarely have made the effort.
We've done this on the podcast before Audio Forum, but we should do more of these a couple
times a year. I think folks might enjoy them. I agree. If you want to know what's going on,
this is what's going on.
About this episode
Mike Shank breaks down how IndyCar teams run like businesses: car-number changes are “simply doing a decal swap,” while driver interest, sponsor ROI, and TV exposure all tie back to measurable results. The conversation connects manufacturer strategy across IMSA and IndyCar, explains why rookie “freshman year” is tough, and explores compensation structures—base plus kickers, plus sponsor-funded deals. They also discuss budgeting and financing (including a $5–$6 million capital call) and the new charter/franchise system’s valuation uncertainty.
If you'd like to join the PrueDay podcast listener group, send an email to [email protected] and you'll be invited to participate in the Discord chat that takes place every day and meet up with your new family at IndyCar events.
