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Pattering on with Bill Helmes Part 4
Pattering on with Bill Helmes Part 4
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About this episode
Bracken Helms continues his engaging conversation with his father, Bill Helmes, diving deep into the Porsche community and the evolving market for air-cooled Porsches. They reflect on personal experiences with car purchases, the emotional weight of ownership, and the recent surge in G-body prices. Bill shares heartfelt memories of the late Gary Emery, a notable figure in the Porsche world, and discusses the craftsmanship of classic Porsches, emphasizing the importance of proper care. The episode is a blend of nostalgia, market insights, and personal anecdotes that resonate with Porsche enthusiasts.
Topics:
air-cooled prices
G-body market
Gary Emery tribute
personal car stories
Porsche craftsmanship
ownership anxiety
car buying experiences
Porsche community insights
In this episode I talk with my dad about the rise in air-cooled prices and finding my first Porsche.
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Too Afraid to Ask
Car
Porsche 911
"But, you know, someone will come over and show me a car and it's a mutt. I mean, one thing about a 9-11, 9-11 is hard to put back together when it's been thrashed and it's been tweaked and the seams are off."
Car
Chevrolet Camaro
"...he craziness out of me. So I went and bought like Camaros and, you know, right. Whatever."
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Welcome to Porsche Pattern with Bracken Helms, the show where we hear Bracken and his distinguished
guests from the Porsche community patter on about Porsches and all things automotive.
Porsche Pattern is sponsored by Circuit 6.4.
Circuit 6.4 creates authentic, automotive apparel made for life-minded automotive enthusiasts.
The links for Circuit 6.4 are in the shown notes.
Okay, let's get to it.
Okay, here's part four pattering on with my dad.
This was recorded like end of 2023 or I don't know, something like that so it's not super
current.
Now I'm going to try not to go on a tangent, but this episode, what do I want to say?
First I want to speak on, it's probably best I didn't get that car that he's talking about
with 30,000 miles in Salt Lake City because the one I got, my black car, is like already
too nice.
Like I want to be a good owner, I want to pass it on to the next guy and I do have
anxiety about it from time to time.
So to have that one that he said was basically brand new with 30,000 miles and I'm hanging
out with some of the people I hang out with, they're going on drives where you're on a
dirt road, I think would have been no good.
When this was recorded I was like at an all time peak of bitterness.
Like this was like when G-Body started going up in price and there was a lot of people
that were just being stupid.
I mean I feel like it's fine now.
But there was a time where like I felt like the minute G-Bodies raised above $500 it was
like people were losing their mind.
If you're one of these guys like on Instagram, and your main thing is I've never been in
the Porsche business.
I don't really know Porsches all that well, it's not like it's been a lifetime hobby.
It's just kind of been a hobby the last 10 years.
If you're one of these people that's not a subject matter expert, has not been
in the business, has not driven a lot of these cars, if you're not like a journalist for
a magazine where you're driving all these cars or been in a mechanic on these cars and understand
everything about it, you should shut the hell up because there's some Instagram people
that are just like, their whole thing is like let me comment on what's on Bring
A Trailer.
Oh my god.
Can you think of anything worse to do with your life than to have like a Porsche
Instagram page and all you want to do is talk about well this is what this
brought on Bring A Trailer.
I'm sure some of you guys think that that's cool to sit and talk about every
price that's brought on Bring A Trailer, but to me what a horrible thing to do,
especially if you don't know, to just act like you're a subject matter expert
and just use your Instagram to this brought more money than I think it
should have.
Oh this this was a good deal.
Oh my god.
And this one guy was just ranting and raving daily about the time I recorded
this about how he couldn't believe G-Body prices were going up.
OK, and then another thing I want to comment on.
We've got a big loss in the Porsche community.
So you guys have all heard that Gary Emery has passed away.
This one was a weird one for me because I just see him at the lit show.
I see him at the swap meet.
I see him all the time.
And it's not just like he's a Porsche guy that makes him cool,
but he's also like a Southern California guy.
Like he's kind of got longer hair, clearly new of him.
But I didn't really know what he looked like.
So when I first started going to these shows, I remember thinking
just watching him walk around and being like, there's something about this guy.
He's just got swagger about him.
I didn't know how old he was until recently, probably within the last
couple of years, I looked up how old he was.
Or maybe it was when I was doing the interview with Rod that he told me
I don't somehow I found out how old he was and I was kind of blown away.
Because if you told me he was 50, I mean, he doesn't look like he's 20.
But if you had told me he's 50, I would have believed you.
And so I never really thought like, oh, he's getting older.
He could pass on.
He comes to these shows.
It's not like he's like stumbling in there.
You see him walk all around the show.
It's not like he just comes and sits down.
He's walking out and he comes down for all these shows.
I don't know.
He just kind of seemed immortal to me.
So when I got that news, I was like a little bit shocked.
I mean, when I originally started doing these interviews, I came up to Rod,
but I was really more interested in interviewing his dad,
because like I said, that just that swagger.
And when we were setting up our like vendor boost,
he would like come by and make little comments and talk to us a little bit.
It's super cool, super humble.
So that sucks.
Anyway, so here's pattering on with my dad.
OK, what do you think of the rise in air cooled prices now?
I mean, it wasn't that long ago.
I mean, I bought mine.
I guess time goes by fast now.
And we wanted to pay.
Do you remember when we first started looking when you know,
oh, it's time to buy that car?
We were looking and we were finding really nice cars.
And we were thinking we were going to pay under 20.
Like we were we started looking at 17 or 18 grand.
And then we ended up paying 20, 35 for mine, but it was we had to do it.
Yeah, that's what my target was to get you in a real car for around 18.
But, you know, right at the time we were starting to get them, they weren't hot.
The cars that you and I were trying to buy were not going away.
But it wasn't the car I wanted for you.
I mean, there was we almost bought that red one in Arizona.
I don't know if you remember and it was 19 five.
But I think something there were just a couple of shaky things
each time like the sun had burned too much on the dash.
There were just little things that we kept passing on these cars.
And then I didn't get to see this car.
We bought this car.
Your car was on the showroom at Israel's house in place.
And my friend from Classic Auto, Terry Kiel, is the one that found it for us.
And then, you know, I never bought a car that came back exactly how it was
described to me.
And I remember getting it back and we just did a few tweaks on the car
and you still have the car.
And I was kind of pushing you towards an SC or a Carrera
because there was an SC in Kentucky that was gorgeous or red town front
and rear spoilers to own our car with like 50,000 miles.
We could have bought for 15 and I couldn't talk you into the car.
I don't know if you remember because I have a soft spot for SC's.
And you said, no doubt, I really, really want a Carrera.
So we stuck it out and we got your car.
And you also want a black one, which that's probably the no.
I did. Oh, yeah.
OK, OK, maybe I did.
Well, I don't know.
I was on the I remember like being like, oh, I hate black cars,
but I remember being like all the like the smile in the front.
It goes away.
It's the best looking car clean.
It is the hardest one to keep clean, but a black on black coupe
because of the bigger bumpers and all the stuff.
Aesthetically in the black wheels, it's the best looking car.
I had a soft spot because of there was that black on black one
that you drove for like right after you guys got divorced.
You had it for like a week or two.
I remember we went to Ray Morales as it was black on black.
So I definitely like that one stuck out more than like just the average.
I got pictures of like seven porches just sitting out in front of like
just a normal house in Utah.
Like there was it was like, oh, he had one or two like a month.
It was constant.
So like for once to stick out, we're kind of a big deal.
Yeah, it's hard for one to stick out.
But I think it was wise choice because even now when I look,
I think the best looking in the G cars is a black on black coupe.
I mean, it's a gorgeous car.
There was that other black one that we were trying to get the guy.
It was in Colorado, like Highland Park, Highland City, something Highland.
And he this was back.
I mean, now everybody does.
Well, I'll just sit on it and wait till I get the price I want.
But that back then, I remember it being kind of like a big deal.
Kind of like thinking he's weird.
You want to sell your car, you've ran ads, it's for sale.
He just wasn't interested.
I don't know if he was really that interested in selling it.
So he wasn't budging on price.
I mean, not we look back now and it was probably a deal.
But at the time, it was like where he wasn't willing to will and deal at all.
And there was actually one in Salt Lake now that had come back.
And if you remember, I took it down and got it inspected.
And he went sideways.
It was an 84 coupe black with beige
and it had like thirty one thousand miles.
And this car was brand new.
This car was a beautiful car.
And this guy had had it for a long time.
He was an older guy and he wanted to sell it.
And someone told him about me and he got in touch with me.
I went over and got the car.
He was just kind of nervous and hyper and I took it over to Strong's
and I had Larry or Randy checking out.
I can't remember who and it all checked out.
And I went back and told him and I tried to work him another four or five
hundred dollars because the cars weren't hot then.
And it was fair.
We were paying all the money, but he ended up just going sideways
and saying, no, he was so happy that his car checked out
and he thought he was decided to keep it.
And I think that was that car was twenty, twenty four,
twenty five thousand, something like that.
And it was a beautiful car.
Do you remember that car now?
I think you may have like not wanted to get my hopes up.
I remember all the cars, but I don't remember that.
Oh, yeah. You didn't tell me.
I mean, I'm in California.
This was a special car.
This car was brand new.
So maybe you didn't want to tell me about it.
Yeah, I don't even remember hearing this.
Yeah, I had inspected and everything.
And I can still see the car.
I remember meeting at the parking lot and because a friend
knew he'd let me take his car.
And I think he took my car and then I doubled back.
God was a beautiful car.
And then he just went quiet on me.
He would not sell the car.
And I when people go quiet, I just move away.
Yeah. So what do you think about how crazy
the air cool prices are getting now?
Well, you know, I think they're crazy.
But it's sad for me because I can't do my business anymore.
It's it's kind of over because I'm an air cool guy.
I never was water cooled.
I'm still not.
And so I can't do my wheeling and dealing.
But that's been over for really 10 years.
So that's OK, maybe even 15.
But really the last 10.
So the prices should be that high.
It's the best car it's ever made.
I think the 9 11 hand built is just a phenomenal car,
especially one that's been taken care of.
And I don't mean that the paint's perfect.
I'm talking one that hasn't been wrecked
and one that's been serviced.
And and you can get a feel of a car
when that car has been cared for and loved.
And you can put it back together with little things.
But that's just by far the best car I've ever seen made
and best car put together.
And I mean, you still open the doors up and down the hood.
Everything about that car, the rubber doesn't wear out.
I mean, it's where I can like it just helped you find that 74.
The rubber is all still intact.
The accordions, the rubber in the front,
the bumper guards around the windows.
I mean, there's just phenomenally built cars.
I mean, they're they're underestimated how good a car those cars really are.
I mean, I think a lot of people are looking at it like that,
because there's the one side, the pessimistic side that can be like,
oh, I could buy these cars for 15 or I could buy this car for 20,
10 years ago. This is ridiculous.
But then there's you look at the other side,
look at some cars that are bringing large amounts of money.
And this is obviously a better car.
So why would it not be worth money too?
And there's none of them left, guys.
I hate to give you the news.
I've been you know, how long I've been doing it.
I don't get a car once a year shop to me anymore.
Organically, like I used to get two or three cars a week.
I mean, the dealers in Salt Lake, you either went to Strong's
or you went to me if you wanted to sell your car,
unless you were going to retail it.
And I would be getting three, four, five calls a week from dealers
or whatever running around.
That's why all those cars were in the driveway.
Now I get none. They're gone.
These cars are gone.
And every once in a while, a car will come up.
But, you know, someone will come over and show me a car and it's a mutt.
I mean, one thing about a 9-11, 9-11 is hard to put back together
when it's been thrashed and it's been tweaked and the seams are off.
They're a difficult car to really make right again.
And when it's hard to take the turd out of a 9-11,
it's a difficult thing to do.
So if you can find a car that's basically all there
for a reasonable price and you can take it to a mechanic
and he can tell you it's a decent car, you better get on it.
There's no choices. I get no options.
How long have I been looking for you a second car, five, six years?
Like more than that.
I mean, because I was I was still in school
when there was that SC Euro car with no sunroof.
And that was a mistake.
There was a mistake.
There was a mistake.
Oh, that was a mistake.
And I'll tell you another mistake I made.
This guy brought a car up and I sold this car to Terry Kill
and Classic Auto.
But there was a guy that brought a car up from Texas.
It was like a 69 or 71 T that he had all dialed in.
He'd had it for years.
He loved this car and he took it in and traded it in.
I ended up wholesaling it and that car was $6,500 or something.
And it was a really nice tight.
Cosmetically, it wasn't all there, but it was good enough.
It was a loved car.
That car, I'm not going to say haunted me,
but that car comes up occasionally in my conscience.
I was like, what were you thinking?
I mean, I flipped it probably, you know, 7 grand, 7,500.
I don't know what it was.
It was so cheap, but that was that had to have been
probably 15 years ago, but those cars were cheap back then.
And all of a sudden it just, you know,
they went from being worth 15, 17, 15 to 22.
But once it got to 22, they got up to 30
and all of a sudden the cars disappeared like in two or three years.
This market just really, really changed in a hurry.
I'm talking about the SCs and the crows.
Yeah, they really changed and it changed really quickly.
And even the pre-impa or the long hoods did too.
Oh, yeah. Do you remember?
I remember like I was getting out of high school
and I was like, if I wouldn't have went through the whole streak of like,
OK, I want to get the craziness out of me.
So I went and bought like Camaros and, you know, right.
Whatever.
I was about to buy like right out of high school.
You could buy a long hood for nothing.
Now, do you find in a deal for me?
I mean, you would under 10 grand.
Oh, absolutely. Yeah.
Even 12 years ago, I had a 73 that was not far from my house
and went and took it, checked the car out.
It was leaking a little bit much.
And I think I didn't want to pay him.
It was a 73 target.
And I don't think I wanted to pay him 12,000 for it.
I mean, it was leaking too much.
And it was it was a solid little car, but, you know,
you're going to chase some oil leaks into a couple of things.
But the car was it was there.
They were just around.
I just, you know, I would go out and look two or three times
a month, someone would call me and they'd be a car
and they just one day disappeared.
I think it was just the 73 RS.
Just people were like, well, this is basically a 73 RS.
It's like, you know, pretty similar.
And I remember when they went to 40 grand, I thought it was absolutely insane.
And then they jumped to 70 grand and I thought 70 grand
right for this car that was like under 10.
And then from there, you know, 70s of bargain now for some of these.
Well, it's clean 911 s's.
Yeah, everything's changed.
I mean, the day I I showed up over at Steve Clifford Porsche,
which was in Provo in those days, and I pulled in there was a
99 the first 99 silver Carrera sitting there.
And there was a 98 black on black 2S sitting next to it.
And I remember getting out of my car and just going, it's over.
I just I could not believe the contrast in the two, the two cars.
My friend Jamie calls it the Toyota Carrera.
There was that 99 austere car and there's a black on black 98 2S,
which is probably one of the prettiest cars ever made.
It's just absolutely beautiful car and it's sitting next to this car
with a with a pretty close sticker close to it.
And there was just no comparison in the cars.
I mean, I give the 98 2S a 10.
I give the Carrera three.
It was it was unbelievable.
It was shocking.
And I knew at that point, the games on these,
they're never going to build a car like this.
They're never going to build a hand built car like this again.
And these cars at some point are just going to start going through the roof.
Everybody's going to want them.
And now here we are where everybody knows for quite a few years now
that they were disappearing and now they're gone.
I mean, some people are still in that pessimistic
pouty phase where it's like, I'll get on like Instagram
and I'll look at like some of not close friends,
but friends that I'm like on Instagram with a little bit.
And they're like showing posts of like, oh, I'm bringing a trailer.
Can you bring a can you believe a G body brought this kind of money?
It's like, I don't know if they're just snotty towards pre impact or what?
Or they just like, I understand that G bodies have made a lot of them.
And I understand that they weren't that expensive that long ago.
But neither were the long hoods either.
And now, all of a sudden, you hear people just like, I'm just like the G body.
Like that's the pinnacle of where they were going before they went to the nine six four.
I mean, sixty five to eighty nine, they were continually getting better.
And now we're talking about, oh, I can't believe that G bodies
bring in that much money. What do you not understand about it?
I mean, I guess if I guess the only justification I can see is
well, it wasn't that much a couple of years ago.
But as far as like quality of car, like I'm lost on
people could have said that with the long hood for the longest time because.
But now, suddenly, everybody's OK with the long hood being that
because it's been so long that the price has been going up.
But now that the SC in career are going up, it's like they're shocked.
Like, why? I I've said for at least 20 years
that that's the car that's going to break a roof.
I was a young man selling cars then and the five, six and sevens,
even though I love the look of the car and they were new.
So I was still enjoying the car, but they ran really hot.
I remember going to Phoenix and picking one up that's brand new
and and needing to ride back and I had to turn the air conditioning off
because it was running so hot on a brand new seventy seven to get out of town.
And that was pretty typical of those days.
Running to L.A. in a seventy five, seventy six, seventy seven, those
thermal reactor, they ran really warm.
And then one day an SC showed up and it was a super car.
The contrast from a person who were driving those cars every day
to all of a sudden, there's a nine eleven SC with wider fenders,
with a three liter motor that was more comfortable.
It was a phenomenal, phenomenally improved car.
The progress, it was amazing.
It was an absolutely amazing car and it's never shifted for me.
I by far, if I was telling someone to buy a car,
I'd say by seventy eight to eighty nine, nine eleven.
I think it's just it's just an incredible car.
And I think it's a credible value.
I think it's still undervalued.
It's it's an amazing car and it's a very dependable car.
I mean, I think a lot of people,
definitely everybody has their opinion on which models they want.
And there's definitely those people that are like, I like the early cars
and they're justified.
They've always liked the early cars.
But I feel like there's a lot of people that are bandwagon and they're
just like, oh, but aren't the early ones the best ones?
I think a lot of them are just followers.
Like, oh, well, it's worth a lot of money.
This is the one to have.
I saw it in Top Gun.
I mean, I guess if you're like a designer,
because I mean, Wix likes the early ones better because.
Oh, they're beautiful cars. I love them.
I just, you know, I like the feel of it.
I mean, I've just got your seventy four.
I've got the eighty eighty two S.C.
sitting in the driveway.
I've driven them both back forth in the last week, ten days,
because they're both sitting at my house.
The seventy four is light and it's fun and it's zippy and it's something to it.
But the S.C. is so much more refined.
And then the Carrera is a little bit more refined than that.
And if, you know, if you want your wife to go 50 miles with you to go up
in the mountains for dinner or you want to run over here to a wedding
and it's 50 miles away, your wife will be happy.
If you've got your S.C. or Carrera dialed in, she's going to go with you.
But she's not going with you.
She'll go with you once or twice.
And then she's not going to want to ride with you over there.
So the S.C. and the Carrera, I remember my former wife and I flying back
and she'd go with me and we'd get in, get in a car like in Dayton, Ohio.
And we drive all the way back to Utah or California and totally enjoying the S.C.
or the Carrera.
And I love getting in a car and driving from Salt Lake to deliver the car in L.A.
It was fun.
It was totally enjoyable.
I could do it today.
But with those long hoods, it was it was a little bit of work.
Am I going to have an issue?
It's going to be hot and you're worn out after four or five hundred miles.
I mean, I loved it.
I was young, but when that S.C.
The world changed when that S.C. came out, it was just a beautiful car.
I respect the long hood, but the fact that cars, that's I mean, I was raised on.
That's where I made that's how I got started with those those cars.
And I love them to death.
They're great cars.
They're fun.
But when they went, that S.C. is on the back there.
That's super.
It is a super Carrera.
That car was a big shift and it made it just it's a beautiful car.
And it's so well built and they're still go fine when they're still well put together.
I mean, the cars, they're not going to rust.
They're galvanized.
It just it's just it's an amazing car.
And, you know, just to say something, if off the record with my friends
that worked on these cars and love these cars forever,
if you take them aside, there'll be a little bit of an argument.
But I'm talking about mechanics.
We're talking about that that know their cars that own these cars, too.
Or people my age that drove these cars a lot.
Most of them will say, you know, I probably get it early Carrera.
I get an 84, 85, 86 Carrera.
That's what they'll say.
If the best car because the tensioners were the chain tensioners were better.
The fuel system was better.
And they liked a little bit more power with that Carrera motor.
It's not me.
I'm an S.C. guy.
I like the sound of the three liter.
It just sounds better to me.
I like the way it winds out better.
But if I'm talking to most people,
they're going to want that early Carrera before the G 50.
We're actually going to get to that.
OK.
Thanks for joining us for today's episode.
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Goodbye for now.
We hope we can get together again for our next episode.
Now get out there and enjoy the cars and the people.
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