Richard Burns was a famous rally driver from the UK. He won the World Rally Championship in 2001 and was especially successful on Rally GB.
Topic
World Rally Challenge
The World Rally Challenge is another rally series mentioned in the episode. They’re bringing it up to talk about Richard Burns’ earlier career and a 25-year anniversary.
The Safari Rally is a legendary rally known for being tough and unpredictable. It’s the kind of event where cars can struggle and finishing can be a big deal.
The “Escorts” are rally versions of the Ford Escort. They’re mentioning that Richard drove Ford Escorts at a rally school, which shows what cars people used to learn rally driving.
A rally school is where people learn how to drive rally cars. They teach rally skills, and in this story it’s where Richard worked and eventually got opportunities to drive.
Championship points are the scores drivers collect at each rally. Those points are added up over the season to decide who wins the championship, and rules can change between years.
Peugeot is a car brand that also competed in top-level rally racing. In this part, they’re comparing how the driver performed in the Peugeot years versus the Mitsubishi years.
The point system is the set of rules for how points are awarded based on where you finish in a rally. If it changes, then point totals from different years aren’t always apples-to-apples.
The Dodge Challenger is a car made in the U.S. that’s designed to be fast, with a strong engine and a sporty look. In the podcast, they’re talking about which specific version or year they mean, so they’re trying to confirm the details.
Group A was a set of racing rules for rally cars that were based on regular production cars. Teams could modify them, but not completely freely—so it helped keep the cars tied to what people could buy.
WRC means World Rally Championship. A WRC event is one race weekend in that global series, where drivers compete across several timed sections of road.
A hatchback is a car where the back opens like a door, and the trunk is part of that same door. The speaker is saying hatchbacks became a common rally shape over time.
ECUs are the car’s computers. They constantly read sensors (like speed and throttle) and control things like the engine and drivetrain so the car can respond precisely.
An active differential helps the car decide how much power goes to each wheel. With active diffs at the front and rear, the car can better keep grip and help it turn in the way the driver wants.
Hydraulics use pressurized fluid to move and control mechanical systems. In rally cars, hydraulic actuation is often used for fast, precise responses in components like differentials and suspension/handling systems.
“Rally 2” is a category of rally race cars. It’s a set of rules that keeps the cars comparable, and they’re usually a step down from the very top WRC cars, but they’re still serious competition machines.
Suspension is what helps the car handle bumps and rough roads. It helps keep the tires planted so the car can grip better, especially on gravel and uneven stages.
Concept
technology got banned
Sometimes rally rules change and certain car technologies are no longer allowed. That can be to keep costs down or to make sure no single trick gives one team an unfair advantage.
Place
Chelsea Wolves
“Chelsea Wolves” sounds like a place or group the speaker visited, mentioned in the same timeframe as Rally Estonia. The transcript doesn’t explain what it is, so it’s hard to pin down exactly from this excerpt alone.
A “World Rally car” is a rally race car built for the top-level WRC series. It’s not something you can just bring out casually—teams need lots of mechanics and engineers to keep it running and set up for the stages.
Goodwood Festival of Speed is a famous UK event where you see lots of cars and often watch them do hill runs. They’re saying the other place feels smaller and different compared to Goodwood.
A hill climb is a race where cars go up a steep road section as fast as they can. It’s usually shorter than a full circuit race, but the climb and tight road feel make it challenging.
Concept
tin shelters
“Tin shelters” describes the temporary, lightweight structures used at some historic motorsport venues for car display and service areas. In this context, it emphasizes the grassroots, old-school feel—cars and teams are close to spectators, even if the facilities are simple.
The pits are where the racing team brings the car in to do quick work—like tires and repairs—while the event is going on. It’s basically the team’s garage area next to the track.
Group B was a high-performance rally car class (popular in the early-to-mid 1980s) known for extremely powerful, lightweight cars and relatively liberal rules. It became famous—and controversial—because the cars were so fast and dangerous that the class was eventually discontinued.
“Track” in car setup refers to the distance between the left and right wheels on an axle. Wider tracks can improve stability and cornering grip by reducing body roll and increasing the car’s effective stance.
Wider wheel arches are bodywork extensions that allow rally cars to run wider wheel/tire setups and wider tracks. They also help manage tire clearance and protect against debris thrown up by the tires.
This sounds like a garbled reference to the World Rally Championship. The point is that they’re talking about driving at the top rally level, not a local event.
A hybrid rally car uses both a gas engine and an electric system. The electric part can help the car accelerate or store energy, so the driver has to think about how and when to use it during the race.
In rally context, “efficiency” refers to managing energy and consumption to keep performance consistent across stages. With hybrid systems and strict regulations, efficiency can influence how the driver uses power and how the team sets up the car for repeatable speed.
“Pace gaps” are how much faster or slower one car is compared to another. In rallying, those time differences can change quickly depending on how confident the driver feels and how well the car is working.
Marcos Salmon is another person on the rally team being discussed. The hosts are talking about their weekend performance as something that really earned recognition.
Ollie Solberg is another rally driver in this story. The hosts say he was right behind the leader, creating a lot of pressure, and that he was pleased to get a solid result.
“Confidence” here means how sure the driver feels about pushing hard and trusting the car. The hosts are suggesting Solberg was close, but not fully comfortable enough to match the very top level.
Finland is a famous place for rally racing. The host is saying that the stages there can be rough and narrow, so you can’t just drive flat-out all the time—you have to manage the risk.
Place
Mastoni
The host mentions “Mastoni” as a place where you generally need to push hard. I can’t be fully sure what exact rally location or stage name this refers to based on the transcript alone.
“Road degrades” means the road gets worse as more cars drive over it. In a rally, that can change traction and make the same corner feel totally different later.
Sebastian Loeb is one of the most successful rally drivers ever. The story here is about how he’s so prepared that he can reuse old rally notes or setups to help him drive fast again.
A setup sheet is a team’s documented configuration for the rally car—what settings to use for that event and conditions (for example, suspension and other adjustments). The point in the transcript is that teams can reuse or adapt prior setup information when stages and conditions are similar.
Onboard is video shot from inside the rally car. People watch it to learn how the car behaves through turns so they can plan better for the next rally.
Pace notes are like a detailed “road map” for the rally stage. They tell the driver what the next turns and bumps are and how hard to push, so they can drive fast even though they’re going through the course at speed.
A super special is a short rally stage made for spectators, usually in a stadium or a tight course. It’s different from the long, remote stages because it’s more controlled and easier to repeat.
This is a numbering method used in rally notes to rate how hard or fast a corner is. Instead of describing everything from scratch, the co-driver uses a scale so the driver can react quickly.
A multiple-apex corner means the best line doesn’t just pass one “turning point.” Instead, you aim for more than one point through the corner, so the notes may need extra detail.
Esa Pekka Lappi is a rally driver from Finland. The hosts are talking about how he recently got back in the car and how fast he was compared with the other drivers in Estonia.
“WRC2” is a lower tier within the World Rally Championship. The cars are different from the top WRC cars, so driving them well doesn’t always translate perfectly when you move up.
“Mechanical” here means something went wrong with the car itself. It could be a part failing or not working right, and it can slow the driver down or force them to stop.
A rally is split into timed sections called stages. “Stage times” are how long the car takes to complete each section, and teams use that to see where they’re fast or slow.
Because stages can be different lengths, teams often use “seconds per kilometer” to compare pace fairly. It tells you how many seconds it takes to go one kilometer, on average.
“Shake damage” refers to damage caused by repeated high-frequency impacts or vibrations, often from hitting a hard object or running over something that upsets the suspension. In rally cars, it can affect components like suspension arms, steering, or underbody parts.
An “anti-cut device” is something placed on the course to stop drivers from taking a shortcut. If you hit it, it can damage the car badly because it’s meant to be hit only by mistake.
Service is the planned break where the crew can fix and adjust the car between race sections. If you miss the timing, you can get penalized with extra time.
A written-off shell is basically a car body that was considered too damaged to be worth repairing for normal use. Rally teams can rebuild and use it for competition to save money.
WRC2 is a lower tier within the World Rally Championship. It’s where many drivers build their careers and try to earn a shot at the top class.
Term
WRC Rally Estonia 2026
WRC means the World Rally Championship, which is the biggest rally series in the world. Estonia is the country where this particular rally event takes place in 2026.
The FIA is the main organization that governs a lot of major racing series around the world. Different FIA championships can have different rules and car classes.
Term
ARA
ARA is the organization that runs rally racing in the United States. The speaker is saying it feels different from the global WRC-style rally scene.
The Olympus Rally is a rally race that the host says used to be part of the WRC. It’s being used here to show that the American rally scene has some big, well-known-style events.
Travis Pastrana is a famous American motorsports athlete. The host is mentioning him as one of the big names that helps make rally in the U.S. feel exciting.
Ken Block was a famous American driver who competed in rally events and became widely known through viral driving videos. The host is using him as an example of the big names in U.S. rally.
Leah Block is a rally driver in her own right. The host mentions her to show that the U.S. rally scene includes both established and newer big-name competitors.
A “factory team” is a works-backed entry where the automaker provides direct support—engineering, parts, and funding—rather than relying on independent privateer efforts. The speaker’s point is that Toyota’s factory presence adds variety and top-level competition to the American rally scene.
Subaru is a car brand that has competed in rally racing at a high level for years. A “factory team” means the brand is directly supporting the cars and drivers.
Rally 3 events are races for a lower level of rally cars than Rally 2. Drivers often use them to keep racing while they work toward a higher-category season.
The Toyota Corolla is a small, everyday car made by Toyota. It’s also used in racing, and the podcast is saying Toyota planned to bring the Corolla to the ARA the next year, meaning it would be a competition car to watch.
Snowdrift is a rally event held in winter conditions. Because it’s slippery, things like tires and traction matter a lot, especially for four-wheel-drive cars.
Place
100-acre wood
“100-acre wood” is a nickname for a rally section with lots of trees right next to the road. It’s basically describing how tight and unforgiving the route feels if you make a mistake.
A puncture is when a tire gets damaged and goes flat or loses pressure. In a rally, that usually makes the car slower and harder to control, so it can cost a lot of time.
A “buffer lead” is how much time you’re ahead of the cars behind you. If something goes wrong—like a puncture—that gap can disappear fast, and you can lose places even if you’re still trying your best.
The Power Stage is a rally stage that gives extra points for the fastest times. So even if you can’t win the whole event, doing well there can still help your championship score.
DirtFish is a rally training and motorsport facility known for driver coaching and rally-focused practice. The speaker says it was their first time there and that the shakedown/practice happened under wet, foggy conditions.
“No Man’s Land” is a rally term for being stuck in the middle—too far to catch the leaders, but not far enough behind to be out of contention. It can feel frustrating because you’re not really able to change your position.
The “penultimate stage” is the second-to-last timed part of the rally. It matters because teams often have to decide how aggressively to drive before the last stage.
“Backing off” means easing up a bit instead of pushing flat-out. Teams do it to avoid crashing, but it can still go wrong if the car hits a tricky spot or the driver misjudges the pace.
A “chicane” is a tight, zig-zag section of road that forces the car to slow and change direction quickly. It can be dangerous if you’re going too fast or the grip is worse than expected.
A “write-off” means the car is so badly damaged that it’s not worth fixing. In rallying, that usually means you can’t use that car again and have to find another one fast.
The Volkswagen Polo is a small car that people also race in rally events. Here, they’re saying the Polo still feels really good to drive and compete in, even though it’s about 10 years old.
They’re talking about winning the top world title in rallying. In this context, it’s the big championship win they’re celebrating for Richard and Robert.
LIVE
Hey everyone, this is Josie Rimmer, interrupting your podcast just for a quick second.
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And then all day on Saturday, August 22nd, we've got our summit, which this year is
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Join us to learn from top women in motorsport in the field like Leah Block, Sarah Price,
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Everyone is welcome regardless of age, gender, or experience.
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Hello everybody, and welcome to the latest episode of Spin, the RallyPod, hosted this
week by me, Luke Barry, and I'm delighted to say no disrespect to my colleagues, but
we have an actual rally driver's opinion here to talk about the latest WRC event in Estonia.
Welcome to the podcast for I believe the first time.
Tom Williams, how are you, mate?
Yeah, not bad, not bad, a pleasure to be on here and talk about all the rallies that
have been going on, especially Fast and Furious Estonia, which is this intense from the get-go
and then of course Goodwood Festival Speed's been on, Colorado Rally in the States has
been there's been a lot going on, so ready to talk about it and happy to be here.
Are you happy with my gassing up intro?
There's no disrespect to Colin Clark, David Evans and the like, but you don't have so much
recent competition experience to be so easy.
It's a serious intro, you should be in the stateside doing one of the Indy car lynches,
I think.
I'm a far cry from that, but we can aspire, I can't wait, it's nice to have something
to aim for.
As Tom's mentioned, we'll talk about his rallying career as sort of a mid-to-part to the end
of this episode.
We do want to talk about the WRC first, but I have actually lined up something a bit
fun, a bit special to begin with, which I haven't warned Tom about, so this could be
interesting.
It's a five-question quiz.
Now I'm going to front up, initially, I thought we were going to be joined by David Evans.
Unfortunately, he's had another commitment come up at the last minute, the joys of being
the head of media here at DirtFish, he's always busy, always doing something, so I was pitching
this as a head-to-head, but I thought I've prepared it, so I might as well ask you the
questions anyway.
The chosen topic is Richard Burns, of course, somebody very special to you, as he was your
godfather, and this year is 25 years since he won the World Rally Challenge, we'll get
a little bit onto that later on, I suspect, as well, but I thought why not test your Richard
Burns knowledge?
I've tried to be a little bit not too obvious with the questions, but we'll see, so we'll
start with question one here, which is Richard Burns won 10 rounds of the World Rally Championship,
but which event did he win more than any other?
I hope there's not going to be a trick question, but it's got to be Rally GB.
That is correct.
Yeah, three or four times.
Three times, but it's amazing, isn't it, you would know that, but soon as somebody asks
you this in this environment, you start second guessing yourself.
I don't know, you would say something really unusual, maybe it was like, well, I wish it
could have been Finland, and deal so fast with something that had so many closer results
there, but then at the same time, you could say Safari Rally, and he had a lot of great
results there, or podiums wins, which is super rare in Safari, because it can be a bit hit
and miss over there, but now GB has got to be the one, because there's so many classic
photos of GB in the fog, and the 99 car, the two door and pretzers, and then of course,
bug eye and pretzer, so yeah.
I'm going to ask you a bonus question then, and this is probably about the time you were
born in fairness, but do you remember which years you won Rally GB?
For sure, 98 and 99.
Yes.
And then, I don't think he won it when he won, he didn't win it when he won the World
Championship in 2001.
Nope.
I want to say, was it in the midst of Bushy in 96?
96?
Unfortunately, not quite correct, he won three on the bounce, so it was 98 to 2000, all were
it was 2000, yeah, so that was the year where I think he still had a mathematical chance
of winning the championship against Gronholm, who ain't well sick or something, has scored
one point, but yeah, of course, as you say, 2001 won the championship, didn't win the
event, didn't need to, did he, with everything that went on.
That's a podcast in itself, that rally, can't believe it was 25 years ago, that's quite
scary.
Anyway, second question, it's one from one so far, Richard drove many different cars
throughout his career, but what was his first ever rally car?
This is definitely before he won.
The sunbeam.
Very good.
I feel like a lot of people assume it was the little 205, obviously, but it wasn't.
It was a mixture of cars, because he of course got loaned a Porsche on one event, and then
he got loaned a sunbeam, he of course drove the Escorts at the Forest Experience Rally
School, so it was bits and bobs, and that's how, I don't know, how he got started really,
so let's just try this, try that, he was working for, that's why he kind of got a number of
those rally cars to drive to begin with, because he was working for the rally school, doing
a lot of the grading jobs, and then he got, in exchange for getting paid, he got to drive
a rally car occasionally, so yeah, so I'm glad I got that one right as well.
Yeah, I'm impressed, you know, I'm actually genuinely impressed, I'm obviously not aware
of the connection, but I've never personally tested you on this, I'm always talking about
Richard much, so it's interesting, you know what I'm saying?
I don't think he ever tested me on any of this.
First down for everything, third question, out of five, true or false, Richard scored
more championship points with Mitsubishi than he did with Peugeot, true or false?
True.
Are you sure?
No, it was the worst of the podcast, I obviously got it wrong then.
Yeah, annoyingly actually, I didn't sit down and work, I actually don't do, I told the
why, it was 54 points with Mitsubishi, 92 with Peugeot, so actually, yeah, quite a big difference,
but obviously he did two seasons in the 2006, I think he did three, or was it two also in
the Mitsubishi, I can't remember, but obviously later in his career with the 2006, and there
was a point where the point system changed as well for 2003, so that will be a big help
in that.
Right, okay, now I just talk, yeah, with the Mitsubishi era, with that dominance with
Tommy, and it was so successful, but then as he said, like Peugeot, later in the career,
dominant a lot after that, so it's, yeah, I advise you on that.
I'm gonna forgive you that though, that was a January 50-50, if anybody knows that off
top of their head, that's crazy knowledge, so it's a slight stitch of a question, but
I'll take one here then, what were the first and last WRC victories of his career, so
am I looking for the event and the year, if you can rattle that off, so first and last
WRC was, I was just trying to think when he went to Mitsubishi, because it would have
been with Mitsubishi in the safari, that is correct, and then year, because he would
have been 91, won the BRC in the legacy, I think, then went and did 555, but the Subaru
and Asia Pacific for a number of years, it's gotta be 95.
So I'm gonna give you a second guess, it's slightly later than that, it's more slightly
later than that, one more year later than that, that 98, yeah, 98, so I think, and again,
I'll double check this, I'm pretty sure the British challenger was 93, so I think you're
basically in your head two years before everything, so the timeline's almost correct, just like
a slight increase. Yeah, I'd always forget how long they were out doing the Asia Pacific stuff,
because of course there was Asia Pacific with Subaru, and that's when he spent a number of
years in the Group A cars, and also did a number of years in the Group A Mitsubishis,
and then the opportunity to do a WRC event with Mitsubishi, which was winning it then.
And then suddenly the rest was history to say, wasn't it? He became quite a
regular winner, but that's the first one, what about the final victory of his career,
the final of the 10? This might be a bit more tricky, or a pojo, for sure.
Are you sure? Is it really not? It's Subaru then in 2001. Yep, yep, because I find that mental,
that it's always a stat that I can't quite believe that he never managed to win an event in 2006,
came close a lot of times. Yeah, because there was a lot of good development with pojo, and it was
a completely different ballgame to a pro drive, and Andrew Cowan and Mitsubishi,
he was a full French manufacturer, and it was dominant, but very different style of driving,
and it was one of the first hatchback cars, which is now the normal. Yeah, very true as well.
2001 then, so I'll give you a clue, you might already know this, but you only won one event
that year, en route to a championship in 2001. So if you can work out or remember which one that was,
then you're in. How many wins were there that year?
I want to say like 13 or 14, you've got the globe behind you, for those listening,
you can't see it, but you've got a big map of the world, aimlessly points somewhere, see if it's correct.
Argentina. Sort of, not too far, it wasn't Europe, it wasn't Argentina, but it wasn't Europe,
I'll give you one last guess. New Zealand, no, it wouldn't be New Zealand,
but it's not in Europe, it's not like that. So again, I'm trying to remember off the top of my
head, I haven't got the calendar in front of me, but non-European events would be, as you say,
Argentina, would be Kenya, would be New Zealand, it would be Australia, I think they were the ones
that weren't in Europe that year. Because you won a number, I don't remember winning the Safari
and the bug I got, because that's when the strut went through the show.
You have said it, I'll say that much.
There we go, so I think I might have to put that one down as a fail, sadly, it was close.
Yeah, so we'll say we're 50%, this one is to get over half in my impromptu quiz,
and actually it's slightly different, but Richard was due to return to Subaru in 2004,
and of course, Sally didn't get the chance to do so, but who drove the car instead as
teammate to Pettus Allberg that year in 2004? Well, I was going to say Pettus.
I thought I'd put that in, in case you saw the loophole.
Pretty straightforward, it's going to be Pettus, but Pettus teammate, he took over from...
I've got a clue if you need one as well, I won't give it yet.
Tommy was there the year before, that Tommy didn't go back, I don't believe.
Nope. No, it's not Tommy.
As I say, I've got a clue if you need it.
Colin was Citroen.
I think that might be the year Colin, he was Citroen the year before, I don't think he was,
because this was the year that, so now all three, I sound like a right nerd now,
I just know these things sadly, but in 2003, they could have three cars per team, in 2004,
they stripped that back, so if I remember correctly, Colin was out, and Science was in,
with a little bit of Citroen.
And Mark and Martin was, went to, Mark and Martin went from Citroen,
to Subaru all the way, I don't know if he stayed, didn't stay with Subaru.
Mark, Mark was in a Ford at this point.
That's right.
I'll tell you that.
Yeah, I'll tell you that.
Would you like the clue?
Go on.
So, you mentioned Tommy Mackinnon, this driver is the same nationality, so finish.
And he only spent a year at Subaru, he's not really remembered for this chapter of his career.
More, more for things he did in the late 2000s, with a different.
Yeah, there you go.
I was thinking that was like way too early for her, and I was like, no way is a Subaru that early.
It's crazy thing, isn't it?
And yeah, he was.
Gary Matty, of course, would have been doing BRC and local,
he would have just been going into the focus.
Yeah, you care at the time,
he wasn't doing world championship at Hervin and that's impressive.
I feel old though, Tom, I think you and I are roughly the same age.
I had my birthday last week and I'm 30 next year, which is terrifying.
We've been there talking all this stuff, it's like 20 years ago, I'm like, how is that a thing?
It's not good.
Yeah, well, I drove, was really fortunate to drive X20, the world championship
winning car at Chelsea was just being on the weekend and just driving it, the technology,
it's just, it's like a whole different world.
It's like computers, ECUs, everywhere, there's like buttons everywhere,
and it's all hydraulic, hydraulics and active diffs front and rear.
I think it's in the center, active just everywhere and it's,
and how long the chassis is.
And it's a great bit of kit, but just a whole different beast.
But I think it's really depressing to think that that car will never not be as fast as the
Rally 2 cars you drive now.
And Rally 2 is not even, I know it's changing a bit, but it's not the top of the top anymore.
But that's how suspension, everything moves on really, but
they had so much good technology on there that of course got banned.
And the focus in 2010, there's all these like things they tried and then you're banned and bad.
If they kept on progressing it, of course, you'd have the ultimate rally car, but it'd be great.
It would be the 17 generation world cars, but not far off.
It's not far off, I would agree, I would agree.
I wouldn't have the skills to drive any of these cars, but if it was everyone,
I'd love to try that, or maybe not actually, because my level's that low that actually I'd
get a little bit near it.
If you got asked, you would have to do it.
Yeah, you would, but I think I'd actually enjoy something far less capable and more,
because I might be able to get semi-closed to this limit, something like that.
Maybe you could move your car off with nothing to hit, that would feel a bit better.
Yeah, this is true.
But actually, do you know what?
Maybe we should talk about Chelsea Wolves first, because it was obviously the same weekend
as Rally Estonia, so you would have had a slight split attention.
I don't know how much you watched the WRC with that going on, but I guess tell us what you were
there doing, and I guess how special it was in the occasion and all that kind of good stuff.
Yeah, well, it was my first time at Chelsea Wolves, and ProDrive had a,
they brought a number of their cars, especially the Richard Burns cars, because they had the
99 Safari car, the two-door Subaru, and of course, we brought Richard's World Championship
winning car with Joe Burns, Richard's sister, and it's all to do with just
celebrating 25 years of Richard and Robert winning the World Championship.
So we've been doing a couple of events, nice events that we can bring the cars,
they could be run, we're not going to nail them, but to run a World Rally car,
you know how they are, the amount of teams and mechanics and engineers you need.
So just to run it up the hill and show everyone what the car was like and how it is, and we had a
lot of team members there, all three different generations from Asia Pacific all the way to
winning the WRC, so it was bringing together a lot of different people and then had a lot of
stories and promotions, so it was a great event actually, I've never been, and Chelsea Wolves
is like a completely different spectrum from going from Goodwood Festival speed to Chelsea Wolves,
it was a really nice event, it was much more just, it was a lot smaller of course, but I think
it's one of the oldest venues in the world in motorsport. I think so, yeah, yeah, it's obviously
just for those that aren't maybe from the UK or haven't heard of it, it's essentially, and I'll
be honest, I don't know where an angle that is, my English geography is pretty bad, but Tom can
correct me in a second, but it is essentially a small little hill climb, and it really is just
a tiny bit of road, but it's so renowned and historic isn't it, it's nothing like what you'll
see at Goodwood as you say, it's not this biggest thing of everything else, it's quite modest,
but it's steeped in history. Yeah, it's got a really nice charm to it, and it has that kind of
grassroots style to motorport, but with the sense that you still have some of the biggest and best
cars displayed under these tin shelters, and you'll have like some really famous or top drivers
just wandering around in the crowd, and you can actually go and talk to that driver or go and see
that car, and then go right up to where they're working on the car, so there's that kind of sense
of they're going to go and thrash the thing up the hill climb, but you see them literally reverse
the car into the pits, so that's that nice, there's not barriers everywhere, and then there's, I don't
know, it's just a really good event, and it wasn't, you know, I have to walk two miles or
just literally turn up and enjoy the event. Obviously driving the car, I don't know,
it was just the, I'm assuming it's not the first time you've driven it, or was it? No, I've driven
the thing before, this was, yeah, it was nice to actually know how to drive the car a little bit,
I wasn't expecting to drive it to be honest, and that car is not an easy car to drive, it's a good
car to drive fast, but to drive it slow is really difficult, trying to get it out of a car park or
doing hill start is not much fun with a lot of people watching. No, it doesn't help when it's
like the attraction, you know that you're not the thing people care about, they're all looking at the
car, but if you're the one that does something silly with it, don't call me out, but no, it was
nice because we had Joe next to me and we could just celebrate the car together, my father couldn't
be there, he was away at the time, and of course my dad was quite a big part in starting Richard and
looking after him through his career, so nice to have at least a number of members there, and we
could just celebrate the team and just share some stories, and the car was incredible, I think any
chance you get to go in a rally car tour is an amazing experience, but especially a world rally car,
it's just like a space age, different, cool, everything about it's cool. Yeah,
do you know as well, and I think obviously I've aged myself already in this podcast, so as you
can work out this was my childhood, was this era, so for me, there probably were, well I don't know
some people might prefer a group B, some people might prefer a group A, for me that was a sweet
spot, but I definitely think a lot of that is because that was what I grew up falling in love
with, but they were just special, like ordinary cars that just looked ridiculous, essentially,
it was great. No, I like all generations for different reasons, but this generation it was
when technology was getting pushed, you can tell like different materials are getting used, it still
looks like a road car, but they're just starting to get quite beefed up and wider tracks, and
starting to get wider arches, and there's just so much technology on those cars that they're
trial and erroring with, and they're just kind of seeing what works and what doesn't work, and
there's when budgets were a lot bigger as well, teams were a lot bigger, there's still cigarette
sponsorship, and it kind of just team kit, hundreds of mechanics, lorries everywhere, it's still when
it's kind of quite crazy on that front, and so all the teams are like really just throwing
everything at it. Now, while you spent your weekend driving gingerly at Chelsea Walsh,
the World Rally Championship Finest, you're spending the weekend driving as aggressively as
possible through the forests of Estonia, I'm going to hold my hands up, Tom, I actually forgot to
check before we hit record, so I'm just going to own it and ask you, have you done rally Estonia
before? My assumption is yes, but I don't know, I haven't. I don't know what the first year,
I was reading, of course, this was his first event doing Estonia in a hybrid car, so
was Estonia first from five years ago? So his first WRC event was 2020, and it's been there
every year bar one in ERC? No, I haven't, I was doing a lot of WRC events in 2018 and 2019, so
I had done Finland, and these events a lot more, but never did Estonia. You missed it?
Yes, I couldn't quite remember which year you stopped doing JWRC, basically, so that's my memory
letting me down as per, but okay, you haven't driven the rally, but you know what it takes to drive on
this kind of event? First things first, before we talk about, I guess, the specifics of what went
down, what's it like as a driver to be driving on roads like that, where it's all about efficiency,
isn't it, but also just bravery, like everyone will have their preference and things that suit them,
but how much do you enjoy just that style of rallying? Well, I think it's a very specific type
of rallying, you can see the pace gaps, they're either really close with the number of drivers,
or jumping off a cliff, because it's so fast, Estonia's just renowned, all of those countries
near that area, it's just renowned, fast, flat out, and you have to be on the pace to begin with,
because as soon as you're not, as soon as you don't have that feeling, you're losing gaps of time,
so it's kind of, you've got to be on it to begin with and confident and feel great, and of course,
Estonia's narrower than a lot of other places, so the speed impression is double, which
all those kind of feelings going through you, and of course, it always looks to be very dry and
dusty, because I haven't been before, but super dry, super dusty, loads of sweeping going on,
so you could tell the crews are suffering quite a lot, who were taking the first few sections on
the road, but yeah, no, you've got to feel comfortable, and if you're not used to fast
events like that, it's a pretty hard time. I'd also like at this point to make an apology to
Sammy Pyre in Marcos Salmon, and if you are listening to Spin the Rallyport, I hope you are.
I'm sorry it's taken us 21 minutes to mention your names, because that performance at the weekend
was sensational. We've seen it coming, well, haven't we, Tom? These guys have been properly on the pace
at a number of rallies. They had, I think it was equal most podiums this year before the event,
there is the most podiums of the season. That first win came, and that's always a tremendous feeling,
but to do it in the way they did, to be so dominant, winning, I think it was two-thirds of
the stages leading from start to finish, they were just peerless. No, yeah, I'm really happy for
Sammy and Marcos. It was really well deserved, and it really shows the effort they put in. They've
stepped it up, and they've always been so close, and they've been working and trying, and rallying
can be a cruel sport, and it doesn't reflect sometimes how much work you've done, and you can
tell this one, they've just taken it up a gear, and to be on the pace to begin with, and then hold
it throughout with Ollie Solberg literally just sitting there right behind you, that's the pressure
that most people can't deal with, and even for Ollie, it was nice for him just to get a result,
put it to bed, and just go, I'm happy with that, and then there's more work to be, so for both of
them, I think that was a great performance. Yeah, I've loved to see almost, and I know the world
doesn't work like this. You can't change one variable, and assume the rest stays the same,
but like 2025 headspace Solberg versus 2026 Pirey, because we know that that was, I think in the
context of where he's at just now with the run of rallies he's had, that was the best that Solberg
could do, and as you see, I think it was a very, very important result for him, arguably just as
important actually as Sammy's win was, but we know he just wasn't quite there with the confidence
and feeling with everything, but last year he absolutely was, and almost two of them together
in their prime, like what would that have looked like, would have been quite sensational to see.
Yeah, exactly, there's like Ollie's come from a situation where he's, he's just got to get his
confidence back, and he's delivered so many great results already this year, but you are competing
with Sebastian Ogier and Elfin, and these seasoned drivers that, they're amazing, they're incredible
drivers that know the sport inside out, so to compete at this level for so long is asking for so
much, but so you can tell where he's, it's been difficult the last few events, but to come back
for the result like this, and then build on that going to Finland, I just think that heats up the
championship for these battles that are in between the larger championship battle, which is of course
Elfin, Ogier, and well, it's still everyone really, the way the points are at the moment, but
there's these battles within rally per rally, especially these fast ones, and like Sammy in
Finland, Ollie in Finland, and then Ogier needs to claw back some points, so he's going to go
for it in Finland, so it's going to be a good one to be on. I think so, and Sammy says it's only
next week, and I'm sure for the drivers it's quite stressful, it's immediately do the rally,
prep for the next one, it's non-stop, but for us it's great, it's almost like a two-week event,
just splitting the middle, restart again, and yeah, yeah, well I'm planning to be out there and
actually go and see some of the teams, and go and just watch the rally, I haven't been out to
Finland, I did a few national rounds not too long ago, but I did Finland three times before 2020,
and it's just one of the best events, great atmosphere, well to be fair, all the events,
from Latvia to Estonia to Finland, just the enthusiasm, they put so much effort into their
events, and as a spectator or a driver or co-driver or a team member, it's a great experience.
Yeah, you feel that, I've only been once and it was last year, and obviously when I go,
and it's the same with everyone, isn't it, if you're competing properly, it's a job,
but that's one of the events you really do sort of forget that, and you're like, whoa,
I'm like, just walking to the Pavlionka, and all these things, it's so full of history,
but we'll not get too excited about Finland, that's next week's podcast,
we'll keep looking at Estonia, but I wanted to quickly just go back actually, and ask about
Sami, because to me, this wasn't a surprise, and actually that speaks volumes for how good he's
been, because he didn't look like a driver who never won a rally, did he? He acted like
one of the best members of them, and that's to me what was most impressive.
No, it's difficult because of course he's trying his best to do a professional job,
and it's one thing getting points per rally, and getting a manufacturer's win for the season,
but another thing, of course, you want to win rallies, so it's a difficult balance of going
apps, you flat out winning all the events, but also getting points for your manufacturer, so
I think Sami's done a great job of getting points, but for his own confidence, I think it's nice for
him to just get a win, get it out of the way, and then really focus on his future of doing both,
and I think he can just accelerate that really, and just go from one thing to another,
but the competition is just as good, and everyone else is doing that.
Having said, you wouldn't talk about Finland, with this result in mind, there's going to be a lot
of people that I think expect him to do the same, and of course it isn't the same rally,
it looks like it is in nature, they're both fast, but the surface of the road is very different
in particular, isn't it? So we can't just assume it's going to be the case, I think last year was
a great example, Robin Parrot was off the podium in Estonia, won in Finland, so it doesn't necessarily
mean he will, but I think it's probably fair to say we can expect Sami to be right up there,
but it was a conference we'll give him. Yeah, I think that's where the mental
edge starts coming out, because it's just as difficult leading an event than chasing, and
now he's got his local event, and everyone's coming over to his local country, and that always
adds a different kind of pressure, but also gives you an advantage as you've grown up on these roads,
and of course toy you to being based in Finland, I don't know, it's that balance of
pressure, but also you have a lot of knowledge, so I think as long as they know what,
as long as they will do their job, I'm sure they'll do fine.
Championship-wise, Sami's result puts him within 33 points of Elvin Evans, of course his competition
number 33, so that's a nice little quirk for any number of hands out there like myself.
Up to third, a head of Sebastian Ulgi now in the championship, it was five,
sorry four, no it's five, maths was filling me, there are five points behind Sami, so 38
of Elvin Tacka remains second, but his gap to Elvin has grown to 25, and that's kind of where
I want to go next Tom, is Elvin Evans, still leads the championship, I think has done for most really
of the year, but it's a strange one, because I guess he's a perfectionist, he's not going to be
fully content with finishing sixth overall on an event, but what the two things that were important,
one I think with the situation with Katsuta and what happened on Friday, that helped him, plainly
managed to extend that gap, but he managed to outscore Ulgi, and he did that by finishing
behind him overall, and I think that's a super important thing, it was one point he scored
extra, but flipping it that, the expected narrative with Elvin being first on the road is he's
going to constantly keep leaking points, but he's managed to just push Ulgi back a little bit,
so that I think psychologically confirmed with five rounds left is going to be important.
Yeah, exactly, okay, if anyone had the trick to beating Ulgi, I think everyone would be doing it,
but Elvin's taking it a slightly different attitude, and he's, as you said, he's not just
trying to win rallies, he's not trying to just dominate and take massive points, he's just
winning by the margin he needs to win by, which is one or two points, and I think that probably
annoys Ulgi just as much as anything, because it's not these huge gaps that he's getting
dominated by, and he might hope Elvin might get crushed under the pressure and make a mistake and
lose 25 points, that's what Ulgi is thriving on, is probably the pressure, and he only makes one
mistake, and likewise for Seb, he can make a mistake and will have a mechanical, but he,
that's one way, is the pressure of leading a world championship and making something small,
and then losing a large amount of points, but as long as Elvin sticks to what he's doing and just
creeps up a couple of points here, and he's doing a good job, you can't complain,
and the rough rallies he's doing is so tricky to not make a mistake or not get a puncture and then
go from these super fast events, because the world championship is so difficult to do,
this many variations are driving, and as Seb right behind you, I couldn't say anything different,
yeah I was going to say, most drivers, and pretty much anybody in a rally one car is going to be a
competitive threat aren't they, but when you're trying to fight off a nine-time world champion,
it's like, what advice do you give Elvin? Yeah, Ogie is a master, and he knows
all the ins and outs, and he'll try everything, he'll push him, he'll throw this at him, and
yeah, Elvin's doing just an incredible job to just fend him off, and he's got to do his own thing.
And I think what's super interesting about this championship pick, as I said, there's
five rallies left, and Elvin's always been the kind of guy that doesn't like to talk about it,
I don't know how much he'll be thinking about it, more than he's letting on, but I don't think
really he's going to be sat there to be worried about it, because he's always so laser focused on
what he can control, he can't score points for anybody else, he can only score his own points,
and it's the right attitude to have, isn't it? But he's in this strange position, because obviously
we don't have any tarmac rallies left in the entire second half of the year, so role positioning is
going to be a massive factor throughout the end of the year. Almost what Elvin wants is either
to constantly have this massive gap, which he's kind of built a little bit up again after Estonia,
or to fall behind someone and try and invent it. It's such a strange thing, and none of us know
what's going to be the best place to be, but that's why, as I say, it feels like there's at least
five pretend to the high end drivers even as well, still in this conversation, because none of us
really know how it's going to shake out. Yeah, it's really difficult. You could say it's really
simple, or you could say it's like really overly complicated, because some of the drivers like
Seb and Elvin, they're looking so far ahead in the championship to work out their road,
where they're going to be sitting in the road, which is so important, so they're looking so far
ahead down the line, that they're driving within so many different levels, and then you have a
number of other drivers that are going absolutely flat out, just nailing wins, second, third,
winning all the time, and of course they're just going up the championship rapidly, and suddenly
they're in contention as well, so it's quite odd you've got who you think is the championship
leader, but then you might also have some underdogs that come out of nowhere, and then suddenly
they're in contention to win as well, so it's quite exciting like that, and I think
we might find out definitely in the last few rounds, so I think we could really get quite close.
And I'll say what you like about the health of WRC, and I think we all know as stakeholders and
fans that it's been better, but I think I can't think of a championship fight as interesting as
this for a good while, and there's just so many different factors in there. Obviously we've talked
about OJ and the fact he's back again for the shot at the 10th, and it's strange I haven't sat and
done the maths, but I'm fairly confident he's in a slightly weaker position at this point of the
season than he was last year, so then you can say oh does that mean he's got a difficult job, because
he does, as much as people turn around and say oh he's benefiting from real drift, he's missing
rallies and he's still in the championship contention, so it's incredible that he can do that,
but I'm so fascinated there, I think Finland's going to be a massive test for him, because
we know why he struggled in Estonia, he'd said he'd in fairness to him, he didn't want to keep
saying it, but he didn't have, as you mentioned yourself, Tom as well, recent experience of the
event, he'd never been there in the rally one car, so I think his first one before that would have
been 2021 in the world rally car, so he was down on knowledge, and we know what difference that
makes now in the WRC with everything so close, so I think it's fair to say Estonia was a slightly
disappointing result, but an understandable one considering the context, but he can afford to
do that, if he's going to be in the conversation, he has to get back to outscoring Evans, and I
think it saves, so he's probably going to do that at some stage, isn't he? Yeah, when Algea throws
everything at it, he does some amazing drugs, like some of the stage times, he's just so good at
going flat out and then coming back and then forward and changing his pace, which is something my
dad always put through with Richard Burns, Richard was always backed off a lot of the time and then
could push forward when he needed to, he had this great push forward when he needed to go flat out,
but then would back off when it would be rough and try and go 100%, 90%, 80%, and be very calculated
in how he was going to do it, and I think Algea is someone who can also change his pace throughout,
but places like Finland and Mastoni, yeah, you do need to go flat out.
He's just the right fit, that's it. Yeah, backing off in Finland is, yeah, you lose a lot of time,
but I don't know, Finland's got some, I don't know, I haven't looked too closely on the route yet,
but if they're using some of those narrow stages that cut away in the side of the road, they get
pretty rough, and you can punch these, and I've done Finland in the past where I've got punches
and problems, and you can't believe you've got a punch from Finland, you're like, where's the
rock come from? It's meant to be the smoothest rally ever.
There's an interesting point in that though, isn't it? Because people make that assumption,
as you say, it's fascinating, but it's just a crash that might put you out,
but there's jeopardy everywhere, isn't it? Just like anywhere else, so it's, yeah,
you've still got to have your wits about you, but if I can ask, and I'm curious about this,
obviously, as a driver yourself, I don't know what your routine is for studying on boards,
I know obviously for rallies you do, but do you tend to work, so say Estonia, it wasn't an event
you did, and it's not an event you're doing tomorrow, so you're probably not going to be
immediately so good there watching, but will you go back and study driving style and stuff?
Because I guess there are, there's obviously things that you can learn, isn't there, from
watching the best do what they do? Oh, absolutely, and especially if you know,
because a lot of the stages are getting used quite a lot, and you can just compare how that person
took that corner into this gear, and he just, and you can see how the road degrades and how it
changes, because they regrade the road differently a lot of the time, and there's, if it's sweeping,
if it's, it was a wet Finland, if it was dry Finland, there's a lot of data to compare, and
yeah, I always keep a close eye with it, but I won't really amp that up until I was doing the rally,
that's when you have, you have a lot, you have, wait, I've heard stories of Sebastian Loeb with
ways pulling out a folder with this, this setup sheet from 15 years ago on this rally,
that's literally pulls it out and recreates that setup 15 years later, and straight on the pace,
and yeah, when you're doing a rally, I'd have this information on hand, and that's,
that's what I can use from my own experience, and if I can gather any other information from
drivers that will let me know, but everyone drives in their own style, so you can add what you can.
But I think that's, I mean, I guess it's probably so we're in Formula 1 as well,
actually, but I do love that about rallying is that there isn't a necessarily a set way to be
fastest, and no one's a set career path either, it's like so many different ways you can end up
at the top of the time sheets, as you say, it's kind of what works for, for everyone, but out of
interest, I know you're obviously of the younger generation, so I don't know if you would have,
but have you noticed a shift maybe in, I guess, the competitors of rallying and the preparation,
because we know how big a deal the video and preparation work is now, before event,
even on the event, you're all doing it in the evenings and stuff, so is that kind of how it's
always been for you, have you noticed a slight shift into even more intensity in recent years as
well? Yeah, well, of course, there's some, everyone does it their own way, and I used to watch a lot
more onboard than I do now, and some people will have a memory, a photographic memory where they'll
watch so many hours of onboard to the point where they can memorize the whole rally, and it's, it's
an intense amount of video work, and I, I preferably do everything from pace notes, and, and I'll be
making sure, sure I can get my pace notes up to scratch, and if the video work just helps me feel
comfortable, I'll get it, I'll make sure it's as comfortable as I need, but through the pace notes is
if I can get them to the best they need to be, that's the way, but we were just
think, looking back at on-boards and different styles where Richard would have
hundreds of VHS tapes and on-board walls, and it's normal back then, and people, and the routes
were a lot longer because you'd be doing, I don't know, 56 day rallies, and yeah,
ages that were 50, 100, 200 miles long, and there's no way you could learn that much onboard,
but you are doing a five kilometer super special, and then, and it's getting used year in, year out,
of course, you can treat it a bit like a racetrack, but you can't if you're going to get thrown into
the back of, I don't know, Argentina that hasn't been run for five years, and you've got to have
good pace notes. I'm assuming though, when you do your video work, you haven't got the VHS,
VHS tapes out yourself, you'll have a laptop, I assume, or are you throwing it back?
When it's in the VHS style, let me, a little film, yeah, better style.
And just, I'm indulging myself in these questions, we'll get back to Stoney, I promise, but
your pace note system, and all we've actually spoken about is years ago, so I remember you had
a slight change in how you did things, but am I right in saying it's semi similar to what Richard
would use as well, or have I got that completely wrong? I tried it, I tried a couple of different
systems, I'm quite on a traditional one to six system, but with quite a lot of description in it
as well, and then Richard had all descriptive, which is massively complex, and you needed a huge
about a capacity like how Richard and Robert did it, when you speak to Robert, for him to be able to
say that many pace notes in Finland flat out, can be recreated, because every co-driver I've
ever asked to do descriptive pace notes, really didn't like it. Yeah, it's a good one,
cars are going a lot faster now, so as well, that's tricky, but I don't know, it comes from a
road rallying background, and where older pace note systems were medium left, flat left, max left,
fast medium left, but there's more complexity to that as well, because it was a multiple apex
kind of system where you could have a couple of corners, like descriptions per corner to
have the entry and centre of the corner and exit, and to say that all, to say three notes in one
corner was pretty odd. Out of interest, though, important question, one fastest or one slowest?
I have six, so six will be faster, and then one slowest. I've never understood how anyone can
think of one as the quickest corner, I've never got it, but everyone has their own way of thinking
about it, but I've never got that. There's one to nine as well where people use that as just
more choice, but also you have nine as 90, and 10 as 10 degrees, and they really think like that,
which I get it, but I don't think I could have done that. No, I think for me, and obviously I
don't make my own pace notes, but I play too much column okay rallies a kid, so that's the way I
think about corners, basically. Sobo's a one to six system with a lot of complexity on top of that
with pluses and minuses, and his own words in between, so it's whatever's right for you,
and what you understand, and I've tried quite a few different variations.
Right, I enjoyed that diversion, but I will get us back on track now to Raleigh Estonia.
High and die, I think we should talk about now, and quite an interesting battle there,
wasn't there between Adran, Fomo, and Thierry Neville, separated by just 5.9 seconds in the end,
but a lot of that really was at the start event. Fomo are a much quicker starter here than Neville,
who struggled more to get used to the car, particularly in the ruts, and then Sunday was
strange, and that Fomo was miles quicker on the first pass of the stage, and then Neville miles
faster on the power stage, but they ended up separated by about six seconds. It's an interesting
battle though, isn't it, between these two, because Neville obviously the world champion winner of
20 plus WRC rallies, Fomo still searching for that first win. I think we all know he's good enough,
he's just not had the opportunity yet, but what did you make of what you saw from the
pair of them at the weekend? Yeah, as I said with the Estonia, if the setup's not quite right,
it's a really hard event to come back from, and Hainder, of course, they're all doing,
they all have their own engineers and their different styles, so they're obviously,
it's amazing to see they can constantly change pace, and they're obviously tweaking this and
tweaking it out for different days, and also different road orders, it's really complex that
they're doing this, but they're all both driving to push the car forward and push the team forward,
hence why they're so close towards the end, but that is why there's that staging where
Fomo's straight out the blocks, and Neville's trying to work it out, and then of course he's
ahead, and it is odd that they were going backwards and forwards, but they're obviously trying everything,
and working it out, but yeah, I would say Fomo's got a lot to prove, and he's a great driver,
and he's going for it, and Neville is really making sure the team gets as many points as possible,
and he's bringing everyone along, so they're both coming in at quite different angles.
You're right, actually, I think it's quite fascinating, that isn't it, because they're
achieving similar results, but with very, I guess fundamentally to say an objective,
but it's different sort of points to prove, as you say, isn't it? Neville and Fomo are very
different points of their career, essentially, but they're both, I mean, they're both at the
same points in the championship, but they were before Stoney as well, still scored the same
points here, so that's quite incredible in itself, but yeah, and you can see the effect
Thierry had, he is the leader, isn't he? He's been at that team since the very start, so I think
if anybody that could sort of help things out... Yeah, and you need a number one driver to bring
everyone else along, you don't want the team battling within each other,
so you want to make sure you get as many cars up front as possible, so if you have a number one
getting points, and you bring your number two and three along with you, and then you have the
whole manufacturer, ideally 123 so you try and bring everyone together, and hopefully
you'd hope they're sharing data, and they're all moving as a team together, but that is the way
forward to get maximum points. As for Formula One, do you think he'll find it difficult to
watch Sami Pairi win, and it's not just that Adram thinks Sami doesn't deserve it, but I'm sure
he knows himself that he probably, well, he probably should have won Saudi, if we're honest,
last year, shouldn't he? That pressure to win is only going to get bigger, isn't it, and it probably
doesn't help when he's seen Sami and Taka this year, of course, as well, claim their first win,
the win he so badly wants himself. Yeah, they're all so similar in different parts of the career,
Sami, maybe a couple months ago was probably saying the same about FOMO last year, and they're
all so close, and they're all great drivers, so FOMO definitely needs to step it up a gear, and
we'll want that win, so yeah, it's going to be tricky in Finland, but a few of the events coming
forward after that, I'm sure FOMO will work it out. We saw Esa Pekka lap obviously back in the car
for the first time in four months, and I think he was quite open about how disappointed he was
to have been so far off the pace, and I did a bit of research earlier, which doesn't look great for
lapping, that he was actually the slowest high end guy in every single stage in Estonia. None of us
really expected that, to be honest, but I think considering that gap out of the car, and he's
been driving a rally two car, of course, in the middle, so yes, that seat type, but it's not that
relevant, is it? It's a completely different car to drive, so considering that, I actually don't
think it's a bad performance at all. When you look at his career, you maybe think, oh, why is that
the case, but the context is key. Yeah, well, when you see Elfin and Osgea, how their 15-20
seconds off the pace in the stage with the situation on the road order, and Lapi, there's no doubt
he's a fantastic driver. When he jumped into a WRC two car a few times when he hadn't been in it,
and gone into a Skoda or something, and I think one of his standout performances was in a Skoda
in Portugal not too long ago, and he just was winning one massive competition and just won
every single stage, and then I think he did a number of results after that, and then he came
back into a world car, and I think it's really difficult when you're getting given the job
to be there, and you don't want to wreck the car, you don't want to total the car in Estonia,
that's a really, the hybrid cars, they're quite different to a rally two car, there's a lot of
power, it's delivered very differently, and in Estonia you don't want to make a mistake, because
it'll be a mess. Yeah, it's tricky for a one-off result to be going into fast events like that.
100%, yeah, any hesitation, as you say, it costs you seconds, doesn't it, and that's it, it's very
hard to refine that. It's better than an accident, when Highend I probably need the shells and cars
just as much as anyone to get to deliver the championship battle.
M Sport 4 now as well, and I think probably no surprise, see that Martin Sesk was the quickest
of the three drivers, but I actually think all three of them were impressive in their own way,
obviously with Josh we didn't quite get to see the full picture, given he had a mechanical on
Saturday morning, John was the opposite, and he had a problem on the first stage, and he put one
back foot, but they all set quite decent times, I thought, considering their experience level
versus the others. Yeah, absolutely, it's for such a young team, they know if you look at the data,
you look at the information in the stage times, they'll be collecting that and looking at the
seconds per kilometer, and where they're going well, and where they're not going well, and I think
as a learning exercise the team's doing great, and Sesk is someone who's very strong in these kind
of fast events, so with the situation they're all in, it's a really good result, except for the
mechanical side, but just as far as progressing, and I think Finland will be a good one for them.
Yeah, I hope so, and as you say, even Sesk weekend wasn't entirely clean, was it? He had that
weird incident with shake damage, he's obviously hit an anti-cut device, but it did more damage
you'd expect, didn't it, but that's quite... I know how hard those are.
You know, we'll talk just about that then, because I guess if you're not stood in front of them,
they don't look particularly menacing, and I know in some countries obviously they're made
differently, but I guess they're solid, aren't they? You hit that speed, it's going to cause some
kind of problem. No, some of them are made of a rock that will just be powder and it'll just explode
and banish, but some of them are a breeze block, and if you hit a breeze block at 100 miles an hour,
rip the front wheel off straight clean, so you don't want to be doing it, but it's for how
narrow a stonia is to be within an inch of some of these anti-cuts. It's asking, asking a lot,
and just it can be the smallest lack of concentration, so I can feel from there, but
yeah, not ideal when you want to get the miles on those cars, because yeah, as I said, the hybrid
cars, it takes a long time to get used to, and you can see all the drivers saying how different
they are, and different cars, different seasons, different drivers. But I think he's quite unlucky
as well in a sense, so if this had happened at kind of any other rally this year on shakedown,
it wouldn't have been as a pressure situation, but because of the astonian itinerary, with the
shakedown in the morning and then the rally in the afternoon, there was not a lot of time for the
team to repair the car, and fair play to those mechanics, we know this about M Sport, they're
nothing but committed, constantly doing the best they can to get anything they can, and they did
a very good job to get that car turned ready, he did unfortunately leave service two minutes late,
that was a 20 second penalty, it just puts you on the back foot doesn't it, but actually for it to
be as small as that, considering the time gap I think was quite impressive. No, and if they can
get the miles, get rid of the pressure and just focus on the job, the team, the team always have
the right spirit, and as long as they can focus on getting the miles and really take the small
wins and build on that, they need the cars all in the clean space, because they're all going to go
straight from Astonia to Finland, so normally it's a written-off shell, so as long as they can
have everything clean enough, learn something, set the cars up, and then really focus on Finland,
you'll be able to push off the back of that, because they're very similar but different,
but you can definitely get quite a good setup and good feeling going into a more or less faster event.
Now before we talk about your own rallying endeavours for 2026, I want to quickly just
ask you about Robert Vervez, who for me just continually gets more and more impressive.
It's probably not a surprise to see him winning in Astonia's home rally,
one of course last year, but consider the context, it's three starts in WRC2 and three wins.
We've all seen his speed, but he's doing it ever at the minute, and he's doing it intelligently,
isn't he? He's not really making any mistakes, and he's still blindingly fast, so is the right
potent combination. Yeah, I think Vervez, of course, he says his home event is as he's used to those
roads he's grown up there, but to be so dominant in so many different rounds of the WRC already,
and then come to this and just have a clean result as he did, and there's nothing to say really,
he just did a great job, and of course he's one of the best prospects for winning WRC2,
and I think, yeah, he's just doing a great job all round, like to be that much of an all-round
driver already, I think he's definitely a candidate for a lot of the teams to look at, and yeah,
he's just gonna, he doesn't seem to be phased by any pressure, he's very modest on his interviews
afterwards, very straight to the point, and yeah, now I'm looking forward to seeing him in Finland,
because I think Jerry Matty's doing it in a rally, so there's a few extra people throwing the mix,
but yeah, now it'll be exciting. And he's got 25 grand to play with the will,
hasn't he? So that's always handy. The prize money in Estonia. Yeah, it was, and you know this
more than anyone, any rally driver knows this, you don't often get money back out of the sport,
you put a lot in. Not an easy sport for that, and especially for how many tyres you use in these
events, so yeah, that's gonna help a bunch, and any budget you can get towards these events means the
world. To talk to us then, Tom, about your season so far, obviously not gone entirely to plan,
but we'll get to that in a second, but originally your intention was the American
Championship, wasn't it? Just explain to us, I guess, why that is, because you've been away for
a few years, but you came back at the start of this year. Yeah, yeah, we, of course, I competed in
the States from 2020 for two and a half years, three years, and had a great time in the States,
the ARA really is quite different to the world championship, a lot of the FIA championships,
it's got some great opportunities and some incredible events, like the Olympus Rally,
which used to be part of the WRC, and yeah, which is like a mirror image to Wales Rally GB, and
it's a big country, lots of roads, and a lot of drivers, characters, you've got
Travis Pastrana, you had the late Ken Block, you had Ken's daughter Leah Block, now you've got
this year, you've got a Toyota factory team with seven heroes, so I don't know, it always bubbles
along with a lot of different drivers, teams, it's got some variety, and for me, it always suited me
to go out there, and so of course, we had a bit of a break since the last time I was in the States,
there was a lot of, there was the world cars, there was the factory Subaru team, and in the
Rally 2 car, it was quite hard to be competitive. In fairness, you're being modest, I would say
impossible to try and win overall against those cars, yeah, it was very tough.
So that made it quite tricky for me to raise sponsorship and really build that story,
but we had a great time, I got some great miles, we were there to learn four-wheel drive cars,
because I came out of Covid, we had some great connections in the States, and it was a great
place for me just to learn four-wheel drive Rally 2 cars and raise sponsorship out in the States,
but of course, after a number of years, I want to win the championship, that's the goal for a
lot of drivers, so that was really tricky at the time, so we took it back a step, and I went and
did a few select Rally 3 events across Finland, Iberian Carp, just to get back out, but I was
focusing a lot on work and trying to raise that sponsorship for a full season, and then last year
we had our first go in a Skoda, brand new Skoda, and it just, I don't know, we got on really well,
and it just worked out that we started testing, doing a few UK events, and then we heard that
Toyota were coming with the Corolla for the ARA the following year, and they were bringing the
Subaru down to a similar level, and then of course, Lea Block was with the Hyundai, so you had
an, I think on the first round, there must have been a 10-15 RC2 class, and when we caught wind
of this, we started to work out, this could be a really good year to compete in the States,
for me to get back out on a Rally 2 car, and then also, I could start raising the budget I need out
in the States with the number of sponsors and people I know out there, so it really built up
that momentum in it, so it wasn't really meant to be, to be honest, it was all very last minute,
that's why we went to the Snowdrift, it would have really helped if I was on the first round,
and of course, we suddenly gathered everything together, and I was speaking with Standard
Mode Support with Ryan Booth, who had a Skoda, and yeah, we managed to pull it all together for
round one, but it was a bit hairy, scary getting to that first event, and yeah, hadn't been in the
car for 44 I think, no, it was five or six months after the first round, and that was one
of the fastest rounds of the calendar. Yeah, and if anyone doesn't know 100-acre wood, we've been
talking about Estonian Finland being narrow, I think we're not quite as narrow, but the trees are
right by the side of the road, so you make any kind of mistake, it's, you can know about it,
so yeah, but I mean, I've forgiven me if I haven't misremembered this, but very, very close as well
to winning that one, I guess, still maybe go down as a source of frustration the way it panned out,
you're right, the edges weren't quite able to get it over the line. Yeah, it's been a very
frustrating year, really, like we were really happy with the progression, it was just that
end results weren't exactly what we needed, but to be thrown into the championship, it was very
last minute, and just trying to do what we needed just to get the results, we went into 100-acre
wood, one of the fastest rounds of the calendar, and we were leading the event for most of the round
all the way to the second day, and then we got caught with a puncture late in the afternoon,
I think a couple stages from the finish, we got a late puncture, and then because we had a 40-second
buffer lead, and then I think that dropped. It must be the worst feeling, because you can't
do anything about it, so you're in there, you're in the zone, you know you're doing your job, and
it's just, I don't know, mentally that's tough, isn't it, if you're like, yeah, in that situation,
and you've got to find a way to make the best out of that bad situation, and that's immediately
where your brain goes, but you can feel the time going, and that must be the worst bit about it.
Yeah, I think that's rallying and resilience, kind of goes to the other watchmen, or carrot
to build, let's say, and yeah, it was a shame, it was really frustrating, because of course,
we had a great battle with Travis, and Seth Quintero was learning very quickly with the
Toyota team, and then we had Lea there, Lea Block was fantastic as well, and yeah, we had a right
battle, and yeah, we came, we lost a couple seconds right at the end of this puncture,
and then we settled for the third, and we got a number of power stage points as well, so we
can't complain, first round, haven't been in the car in a while, a third place for a long championship,
so, and of course, Snowdrift had already been, so we were happy enough for sure to begin with,
but then of course, moving on to Olympus rally, which... I was going to say, it's the elephant in
the room somewhat, isn't it? Just a little bit. And the thing is, that was, even just to get there,
we were really happy that we got there, because it was the longest airway event there's ever been,
I think it was 200 miles, so 330k, so it was nearly the same size as WRC event.
Longer than some of them, I'm sure, I'll have to check that, but yeah, it was a properly meaty
rally. It was a four day, four day event with night stages, and then you had, of course,
Yari Matty dropped in just to help, and then you had Brandon Seminik, the four-time American champion,
dropping in in a fiesta, of course, got Travis, Lea, all the hinders, so massive, massive amount
of competition added, and it was a long event, and I love that event, like it's just like driving in
Wales Rally GB, so I had everything, we was just like, we have to get here, we didn't really have
a budget together to do a full season, but so we were kind of working it all out, making it up as
we go, and we managed, and for our team, we were on the East Coast, so it's a, I don't know, it's a
mile round trip, it's there, so it was a real mission to get there, so we were trying to work it
out, but we had such a good shot, and we wanted to compete, so we got, we got the first part of that
rally, the first success was actually getting to the start, and then we had a fantastic test of
dirtfish, and it was my first time at dirtfish, and we had a really good shake down there, and it
was pouring rain, pouring rain, fog, proper Washington State weather, and then going,
and then the rally started, it was bone dry, like hot and dusty.
Just, I might go to edit this out at the park, because I'm not sure, but there is an ice cream
van right outside my house, it's kind of hard to ignore that, so I might have to leave that in,
I was hoping I could do that. Yeah, I'll give you five minutes, you can go out and run off and get on it.
Do you know what, I'm tempted, but I won't, I'll be the first or Tom, I'll stay here,
and I hope he's still here. But yeah, as you see, it's typical is that you do a test in the wet,
and you get a dry rally, it's not ideal, but you got the seat time, everything was there,
wasn't it, and actually everything was going well, I guess until it wasn't, is that fair to say?
Exactly, it was again a really, really good performance for myself, I thought, I just,
for what I needed and to do, I just went in there and tried to not get phased by
trying to chase Harry Matty, which is ridiculous, because he was on a brutal form,
and of course, Brandon Seminux there to shake things up, so trying to not get caught chasing
everyone else or trying to anyway, and then, yeah, first day was really complex for the night
stages, rough night stages, and I think we came out after the first day, second, third or second,
and then going into the following day, another really long day, and then we managed to keep
second place, second and third throughout the whole day, just following Harry Matty and just
learning as much as I could whilst he was there, because of course, we could have a few nice
conversations between the stages, and then right towards the end, on the final day, we basically
had a, I don't know, a minute and a half gap from, I was probably about a minute and a half of
Harry Matty, I had a minute and a half behind me, so we were in No Man's Land, but it's that
really frustrating just getting to the finish, because I was literally just doing my own thing,
the whole rally, and then right on the penultimate stage or third stage from last, we were just
basically cruising to the finish, and all we had to do was get to the finish, we would be
leading the championship by a really long margin, and it was that backing off, that typical backed
off, still going fast, but backed off and made a mistake in a really fast section, and it was
really small mistake, but in probably the fastest section of the rally, and there was a chicane
there last year, so it was very fast, and unfortunately, yeah, it made a bit of an aeroplane crash
with that one, and it was right at the end, so no one really knew, there was no spectators,
no marshals, no one was there, it was right at the end of the rally, so it kind of just happened,
and we couldn't believe it, it was, yeah, big shock, it was definitely not planned,
yeah, it was quite gutting to, would have been leading the championship, but rallying,
you got to get to the finish, and yeah, sadly we didn't, and that put a pretty massive dent in our
championship, so yeah, so for me it was more, it was a shame, but to get there was one accomplishment,
but I'm not getting the result we needed there, so yeah.
This might sound like a really silly question, but obviously I'm not a competitor, I have been in a
rally accident once, but I don't know if it's different for me in that scenario, it wasn't for
fighting for anything, but is it quite easy for you to get over that kind of thing, obviously
financially it was difficult, the car was a write-off, so your season plans are affected,
obviously by all that, but mentally after that, what's the process, obviously I imagine you were
a bit sore for a few days and stuff, but how easy is it to just move on and forget it, or do you
just constantly think back to what happened? Yeah, you hear about these crashes, and this is the one
you kind of don't want to see, because I didn't even post the photos of it, because it was so bad,
it wasn't even very sporting of a championship, because it was like you don't want to see that,
and yeah, it was by far the biggest accident I've ever had, absolutely, I've had accidents,
but not ones like that, and weird, fair play to Skoda and everyone designing a car like this,
because me and Ross didn't have a scratch, but the size of this accident, we barrel rolled six,
78 times, knocked over 67 trees in the process of this, and most of the guys when
they drove past, because it was in such a fast section, they had no idea what car, they didn't
even know that was the car we were in, right, yeah, for me, because I knew exactly what the
mistake was when I did it, it just happened, it didn't affect me too much, it was just a shame,
because I couldn't really believe it, if I didn't know why I did it, I'd definitely be,
yeah, it would eat away at you, wouldn't it? Why did I slide off the road, or what happened,
or what was it a wrong pace, and I knew exactly what happened, so I just went, it's a shame,
it really, really killed our championship, just because we tried absolutely everything to get
back, we were determined, as soon as that happened, Ross, me, my team management, we were working
at everything to get a car for the next round, so we were like inches away from getting back on
Ohio, and of course Travis could make it, there was a few issues on that event, that's all in
hindsight of course, but we were trying literally everything to get a car for Ohio, but America
just makes it that much harder, because it's hard to rally anywhere in the States, but finding
another car really quickly was really tricky, and our budget was extremely lean, trying to get to
Olympus, so we definitely didn't account for that. Yeah, that's interesting though to learn,
isn't it, because I guess the assumption might be from the outside, that was your last, obviously
you've done good rid of the, not last weekend, the weekend before, which is competitive-ish,
obviously there is an element of competition to it, but not a proper rally, this was still like
your last proper championship event, so yeah, maybe focus, you might have told him, what's he
doing, is he not bothering, but your intention was to keep going, he just weren't able to.
Absolutely insane, I spent six weeks after Olympus rally, like as soon as the accident
happened, I flew straight from Vegas the following day after accident to go to a show,
almost working at a show, and at that show wheel, I was already raising the budget for the next
round, literally the following day, I was a little bit sore, but I was already with a load of
clients of mine, and we were just trying to work it out, how do we get to Ohio, and it would have
been incredible if I could have got there, because I'd be more than happy to get straight back into
the championship battle, but it was just too much, and it would have, yeah, it would have taken
massive, massive risk that would have caused much more damage further down the line, so it was
for those things where, okay, let's just try and get back out in some sort, and we do want to get
back out in the States, we're just working that out at the moment, but we, Goodwood was the first
step to get back in a car, because it's one of those-
Let's talk about that first, actually, when we get to, I guess, the longer plan, as you see,
it was your first, well, this accident was a pro, I haven't got my dates correct, and obviously Goodwood
was July, so it's a three-month gap out of a car, but with the competitive element of Goodwood,
a new car to you is the Polo R5, you won, so it clearly hadn't lost any of the skill or talent,
which must, I'm sure you never doubted that for a second, but it must be nice and reassuring to
see that as well. No, of course, I think if you watch the film Talladega Nights, when he has his
accident and he gets back in the car, people are lapping him. There was a slight concern of being
back in the car after an accident like that, of course, do you trust this, or do you check up on
this, or can you- so there's a lot of checkups, but Goodwood, of course, is a nice place to
take sponsors out, it's perfect, it's local to me, so it's for raising the budget I need,
it's a really core event, but there was still a timed element to it, and we still wanted to go for
it, and we had some great drivers there, and there's a lot of, I don't know, there's a lot of rally
two cars there, and a mix of older machinery as well, so we still went for it and enjoyed it,
and it was my first time in the Volkswagen Polo, amazing bit of kit, even it's a 10-year-old car
now. Not far off, yeah, still good. Amazing bit of kit, so I really enjoyed that, and yeah, it was
just nice to compete and push myself, and of course, it would be nice to do a rally where you can
stretch your legs a bit more and the faster stuff, but yeah, it was just good to be back in
the car, and that was mainly to be there to celebrate 25 years of Richard with a number of others,
and that was the start of our kind of celebrating Richard and Robert as champion, winning the World
Championship. So that's Goodwood, and that was, yeah, what, a weekend before the last one? What
happens now? When do we next see Tom Williams in a rally car, and I guess where do we see Tom Williams
in a rally car? Yeah, well, of course, there's no championship for me to compete with,
to make a championship now, so it'll be independent results, and more just building our confidence
back up and getting the pace, and it's back up to scratch, and I don't know, we might be doing a mix
of UK and US. Okay. Just selecting around our calendar, because my job now is to raise the
budget, so yeah, recover, build that, and get back on back on some rallies, and stateside's
still where we want to be, I think it's got all the potential, and with the number of other drivers,
and there's a lot of good atmospheres, you're kind of hearing about the WRC and going to America,
I think it could be a really great place to be, and we still believe that.
Yeah, Tennessee could be quite a good place to go, couldn't it, considering
everything that's potentially happening. Yeah, well, I guess you've got two options,
haven't you? There's the Grampian Forest rally in a few weeks, I'm imagining that's too tight for
you to make, but that would have been, well, is it? I don't know, maybe I'm assuming they're
incorrectly, but that would have been an experience for potentially WRC next year, that's what it might
be, as they say, Tennessee, with the candidate event, so there are options, but I'm sounding like
the message is, you're going to do what you can in a rally two car, get experience, try and get
some good results as well, just sort of put your name out there and show everyone what you can do.
Exactly, like this year didn't go the way it needed to go, but we're happy with our pace and
happy with our progression from the small amount of events we did do, so if we can just focus on
myself and Ross and just get independent results, deliver what we need to do, and that'll give us
the confidence to really hopefully pull something together, so yeah, I would say that's our plan,
and it'll be nice for me to go to a couple of WRC events, maybe do the recce, go and see some
teams out there, that'd be nice to be in touch with the WRC again.
Do you know, I don't know if you saw it like a little thought bubble come into my mind,
but that's just what I was thinking is, for a driver in your position, obviously you've got WRC
experience from before, but that was a rally four, or there might have been R2, T-Cars still at that
point, I'm not sure, but either way rally four machines now, very different of course to rally
two in a few years ago, but with the way the regulations are evolving, and of course none of
truly know quite exactly how each car will suck up against another until we have a few rounds in
next year, but it's a great opportunity for you and other drivers in your position, isn't it,
because it's kind of like what we're talking about with America before, in theory the rally two car
can now actually be competitive at the very front of that championship, so you've got to be looking
if you can, haven't you, at getting some kind of world championship next year, I imagine?
Yeah, I think it's a good place for any RC2 rally two driver to be get themselves on form,
and be up to scratch, just to be ready for any of these rounds, because you don't know which
manufacturer is going to drop in, drop out, I think it's going to be a big shake-up, and there's
new rounds coming as well, so I think it's similar to almost like the Group A kind of times, whereas
like someone who drove a Group A car in the national championship could suddenly do
Wales Rally GB, and be competing with a UR Kanganen or Tommy Mackanen, and you'll be a local driver,
and I think that's what really gives you the opportunity to show your skill up against the best.
Yeah, as I say, not that you need me to be a career advisor, but it sounds like that's a good
move if you can pull it off. Is there anything else, Tom, that you'd like to share with the world
before we wrap up this edition of Spin the Rally Pod? There's no more questions from me,
you'll be glad to hear. No more quiz, no more trivia. None of that. No, none of that.
I think it was great, isn't it? Thank you for having me. I think it was nice to explain,
of course, talking about everyone's performances in Estonia, there's so many good drives there,
for such a tricky fast event. I'd love to do that event in the future, but yeah, and also explain
about us celebrating 25 years of Richard winning the World Rally Championship, of course, Robert Reed,
and yeah, we're going to continue that celebrating this year, and when it comes towards the actual
day they did it at Rally GB, we'll hopefully do something special. Yeah, I was going to say,
there will be more content coming regarding that. We'll have to work with you on that,
because it's a special anniversary for, I think, a very special championship season for everybody.
The narrative of the way it happened was so incredible. I think it's one of the seasons
that always sticks out, doesn't it? I have to say though, and I'm not going to compare to
2001, because that would be slightly sacrilegious, but I'm super excited for this year as well
championship. Oh yeah, as well. Don't say anything, don't say anything. I'm going to put you on a
spot though, I've decided to put... Well, it's not a quiz question, but it's a prediction. Okay.
Standing here or sitting down as both are right now at this stage of the year, it's the 21st of
July we're recording, season obviously ends in November, I think very late November in Saudi
Arabia. I don't know if you're a gambling man, but if you had to place your hypothetical money
anywhere, the rest of the world champion, where would you go? And I'll be fair, I'll do the same
thing, but I'll ask you first. Okay, yeah, I'll put on Elvin. Interesting. For me,
I want to say Elvin, you answered that far quicker than I expected.
Yeah, Elvin, I think he's got his best challenges I've had. I just, if I was actually gambling,
which I'm not, but if it was my own money, I couldn't not go for OJ.
Well, even against it, just feel like this...
If you look at any statistics and any, yeah, it'd be hard not to, but I've got to give it to Elvin.
I've got to.
Good. Well, let's find out, of course, over the next few rallies, how that pans out. Thank you
very much, Tom, for joining us on Spin the Rye Pod. And if you would like to watch this and,
sorry, observe it, add free as well. Consider joining Club Dirtfish on Patreon. There's plenty
more perks over there, including bonus podcasts behind the scenes videos and opinion columns
from our journalists over at Dirtfish as well. So well worth having a look at that.
We'll be back next week for a rally fitting preview. Tom, hopefully we'll see you around.
That's just like you are coming to Finland, so we'll try and catch up there as well.
And thank you very much for your time.
Yeah, thank you.
Original notes
Luke Barry is joined by Rally2 driver Tom Williams to review last weekend's WRC Rally Estonia, and talk Tom's rallying plans after a major setback at Olympus Rally in April.
