Simulating a Flat Rate Pay Plan in the Classroom

I mean, flat rate, unless you're actually working within it,

I think sometimes it's a little hard to understand.

And I wanted the students to understand,

we get a vehicle in, do a diagnosis on it,

present it to the customer.

What does that, you know, 1.3 or whatever that,

what does that mean?

Beyond the Wrench with Jay Ganinen from Wrenchway.

Welcome to Beyond the Wrench.

My name is Jay Ganinen, and I am your host.

Today's conversation is one I think a lot of shop leaders,

educators, and industry professionals

are going to appreciate.

I'm joined by David Coker, who's

taking a really proactive approach

to preparing his students for the realities of the industry.

He's building a simulated incentive-based pay plan

inside his program, not just to explain flat rate and theory,

but to help students understand productivity, professionalism,

and what it really means to earn pay increases in the real world.

We'll talk about why he felt this was important,

how he's structuring it, and what

happens when students start connecting performance

with opportunity before they even step into a shop environment.

This is a forward-thinking conversation

about accountability, expectations,

and preparing the next generation the right way.

David, welcome to the show.

How are you today?

I'm wonderful.

Thank you, Jay.

Good, good.

Before we dive into all of that, the incentive plan

and how you're teaching flat rate,

let's start where we always do.

Every path into this industry looks a little different,

and that's part of what makes it so unique.

So take us back a bit.

How did you get started in the automotive world?

So automotive, like most of us are age,

I grew up working on, well, let's take it back even further.

I grew up with Hot Wheels.

When I first started teaching, I thought,

what made me want to be a technician?

And I looked at how I grew up, and I thought,

it probably all started with Hot Wheels.

And then we moved into slot cars, and maybe RC cars,

and bicycles, and on and on, and trying to pull things apart,

fix them, make them faster, better, models,

customizing, and things like that.

I kind of thought that's where I was going to go.

I took a little turn out of high school,

even though I did take one class of shop in high school,

but yeah, I think that's kind of where it all stemmed from,

is actually playing with Hot Wheels and slot cars.

Yeah, I think that's a lot of us, right?

That was always a lot of fun, and anything with wheels,

I know I was that way when I was growing up too,

just it was always really, really intriguing.

And I think the more fun you have with it,

the more you then become curious of how things work

and why they work the way they do.

And I think we're set up into this industry

a little bit, right?

Like if it's something that piques our interest,

it's really easy to want to get into this industry.

Yes.

Yeah, so what about after that?

Like when you get into school, how did your career path look?

So in high school, I did take one automotive class

my senior year, and worked on some buddies' cars,

my own cars and stuff like that.

And upon graduation, I thought I was going to go to work for GM

and get into their technician path program

with the local dealership.

And at the time, I was not able to get sponsorship from the dealership

and ended up going into the restaurant business.

It was pretty easy while attending a community college

and then eventually a full four-year college.

But I think the restaurant management

kind of helped me quite a bit with my management style

in the automotive industry.

And I was in the restaurant business probably eight, 10 years

and ended up in Tennessee and was looking for a way

to get back to Florida.

And I ended up landing in the automotive business selling cars.

And I'm a quiet person.

I'm not a salesperson, but I thought, well, shoot, I love GM.

I love Chevy's.

I can sell Chevy's, but where do they stick me?

They stuck me over in used cars.

So I had no real passion for it.

So I kept looking and ended up with a company called Vogue Tire.

Have you heard of Vogue Tire?

Are you familiar with Vogue?

Well, at the time, I really didn't know much about them,

but I ended up working as a subcontractor

at a Cadillac dealership doing wheels and tires, accessories,

customizing vehicles, gold kits and stuff like that.

And I started out as the technician

and really did a good job working with customers,

selling and building a customer base to the point

where I was ready to hire someone to work for me

so I could actually spend more time on the sales side

in the showroom.

And so I reached out to the local high schools.

And because I wanted someone I could train

to do things my way, I didn't want somebody

who was already working somewhere else had bad habits.

So I reached out to the local high schools

and one of the schools that contacted me back invited me

and said, yeah, come on into the shop.

Let me have you wash a couple of the kids

while they're working in there.

And that's what kind of piqued my interest in teaching.

I thought, I like what I'm seeing.

I like the kids out there working on a tire machine

or underneath the hood

or doing different things in the shop.

I said, at some point, I think I want to do this.

Fast forward 20 years later

after being through a couple of different dealerships

and here and there, I thought it was about time

that I'd get back to the industry that I enjoyed so much.

And I said, next time there's an opening in the area

for an automotive instructor, let me know.

And I prepared myself for that.

And it worked out that the last technically automotive job

I had for Fleet Maintenance,

the school that had an opening was right in the same city

where I was currently working.

So it was an easy transition.

The instructor was retiring whenever he spent some time

with him.

I didn't even really interview with the principal.

I mean, she basically asked me some questions,

but I kind of already had the job

and been doing it ever since.

Oh, what a cool story.

I have to ask, what kind of restaurant?

Well, going back a little bit, started out at Ponderosa.

I mean, in high school, I worked at Popeyes,

which was fortunately still around.

Ponderosa was no longer around.

And then I ended up with Cracker Barrel up in Tennessee,

which I really never ate at Cracker Barrel much,

but it's amazing company

and really had a good experience there.

Yeah, I loved Ponderosa when I was growing up.

The buffet style, that was a big treat for me.

I know when I was probably in middle school,

that was the place for me.

If you could ask me anywhere I wanted to go,

Ponderosa was in, I loved that place.

But that is interesting.

And then so you come back down to Florida

and the position for the teacher opens up,

the teaching position opens up.

You go, you basically just kind of get the job.

How did it look in those first few days of teaching?

I mean, was there some level of educating you

on how to teach or was it kind of picking up your own style

or how did that work?

Because the school I was at,

unlike the school I'm at right now,

I mean, it's an elective class.

So out of 120 kids, there's maybe five of them

that are really interested in getting into the industry.

The rest of them, they needed an elective.

They thought they might want to work on their own car

and they could care less.

So that's where I started to think,

why do I like to work on cars?

And that's what got that mindset thinking

of where my love of working on cars came from

is those first few weeks in that classroom.

I don't want to jump ahead, but I do want to ask,

do you see similarities in today's student

to what you had growing up where it is hot wheels,

it is maybe even Legos or something like that,

that kind of triggers that or walk me through that piece?

Well, like I do have some of my current students now,

we actually have a Hot Wheels Club here at the school

and several of my students are in that club.

So yes, and yeah, sometimes I had to tell,

all right, time to put away the toys,

we have real work to do.

Yes.

What's a Hot Wheels Club look like?

I don't think I've ever heard of that before.

I have my own club, so I never go to them,

but I know they set up a track and everything,

so I don't know what they do.

I've got a nine year old son that is obsessed with Hot Wheels

and we have the back of our living room

just completely filled with different tracks.

And I will say one thing that is really painful

is if you step on one of those without a shoe on,

it's a different level of pain, yeah, exactly.

But it is fun to see the creativity that comes along with it

and just from the collection of cars in general,

the Hot Wheels has always done such a great job

of kind of recreating some really cool cars

and coming up with their own designs,

but I know at SEMA, they had like the,

there was some type of Hot Wheels build off

where people were building cars

that could potentially be made into a Hot Wheel,

and so they just have great marketing,

they have a great product in general,

and it's interesting that that really puts it on a tee

for a lot of students.

Yes, and one of the things I always wanted to do

was work with some elementary school kids,

and fortunately we have a K through eight

that was built behind us two years ago,

and actually use Hot Wheels and Legos

and try and develop some of those interests

and maybe grow my own technicians up to this school.

As there's people listening to this,

I know this has been controversial,

we've talked about this in the past,

about the need to get involved younger and younger

with students, and I think what you're doing there

are planting those seeds, so when they do get to the point

to where they have maybe a decision to make

on what path they wanna go,

I know a lot of career path things happening

when they're eighth graders now, right?

Like they're really trying to figure out

what classes they need to be in,

so if you can plant the seeds earlier,

you find those students that really do want

to be in this industry or at least have an interest

in the classes that are true interest,

you can kind of stoke that fire a little bit

as they kind of go through their educational path, right?

You can really kind of plant those seeds

so that you're helping almost recruit to that program

when they get older.

That's the idea.

Have you seen like when you're going

into the elementary school,

what do you do with Hot Wheels?

Like when you go in, what is it that you're doing

to kind of keep their focus or maybe not even keep

their focus but pique their interest?

I'm not doing anything directly with the school yet,

but I do go out to, we have STEM fairs

with some of the elementary schools in the areas,

and I haven't taken Hot Wheels and slot cars actually,

and the kids spend a lot of time on the slot cars,

which is my school.

That's cool.

Yeah, because a lot of them have never seen it before,

so right now, my effort has been mainly focused

on the STEM fairs.

Time is one thing that none of us have enough of,

and for me to go back there at the K thread

after being here all day has been kind of difficult,

but that is something I'm working towards

amongst all this other stuff I got going on.

All right, well, you said here, let's talk about here.

Tell us a little bit about the school.

So Kirkland Ratch Academy of Innovation is a magnetic,

or magnetic, a technical magnet school.

In other words, the students in the county

have to apply to one of our STEM programs,

and when they were coming up with the idea of the school,

they took a look at the jobs in this area

and what the top 10 most needed employment opportunities were,

and that's the programs they put here in this school.

So again, we have automotive, we have diesel, welding,

building trays, which is kind of like carpentry, electricity.

We have cybersecurity.

We have digital media, which is where I am right now.

Robotics, engineering, patient care technician

was kind of like a nursing program, and biomedical.

And again, the kids have to apply to be a part of this school,

have at least a 2.0 GPA,

and they are kind of responsible for their own transportation.

The idea that they come in here and are kind of prepared

for a career, not necessarily just college,

unless it's required as part of that program path.

That is fascinating.

So how many schools are in your general area

that have students that could apply to college?

We probably have three to four main schools

that we draw from, middle schools,

ton of elementary schools.

We recently opened up a school called Angelina Academy,

which is in Central Pasco, similar to ours,

but not the same programs, not as many programs.

And then we have more of a traditional high school

with an adult education program over in West Pasco,

and a little bit different as well.

So we're kind of unique,

but we have had over the past four years that we've been open

a lot of districts come in and take a look

at how we set things up, ask us questions,

what we would do differently and all that,

and trying to model what they're building

based on what we did here.

And so what grades are you touching then?

Which grades are you teaching?

So we're high school, nine through 12.

All our program classes are downstairs.

We're kind of in a big circle,

and all the core curriculum classes are upstairs.

That is really cool.

Now, when a student applies,

you mentioned that they have to have at least a 2.0 GPA.

What else do they do to be able to get in or get accepted?

Because is it something where there's going to be a waitlist

or there's going to be people that don't get in?

There's waitlists.

So they ask the students to put your first three choices in,

which I always had kind of an issue with,

because again, if you want automotive

and they stick you in cybersecurity,

are you really gonna be focused on what you're doing here?

I mean, yes, there are advantages

to taking your core curriculum classes here as well,

but, and we do have some students that,

irregardless of what program they're in,

they're gonna try and make it here,

but it's kind of a lottery system.

And so that part right there is really fascinating to me.

So is it prioritizing the students

that put it as their first option

that get like first crack at it?

Or is it kind of a mixture of-

It's pretty a mixture of both.

I mean, for example, the K through A behind us,

I've heard that students who attend there

do have a little bit of extra priority if they apply here.

I've also heard that, well, no,

we have to be fair to all students.

So it's an equal lottery process.

So, you know, it's just a matter of applying

and, you know, as long as you got the GPA,

you can, you know, you may be chosen.

That's gotta be a challenge in and of itself, right?

Because if you've got students

that wanna get into the program,

but can't necessarily get into the program.

And then like you said,

we have the same issue up here in Wisconsin too,

with some of our schools.

And some of it is due to,

I don't know how your scheduling works down there,

but we use a block scheduling approach

at a lot of the schools.

And it's ended up with, you know,

an ag class at this one school specifically that I work with

where they've got kids that aren't interested

in the program that are in the class,

and then kids that are interested in the program,

but get put in a different class.

And I think it's a unique challenge,

but it's one that hopefully we as industry and education

can kind of work together on

to try and figure some stuff out.

Because I do get the sense,

like almost exactly what you were saying,

where if you get a kid in that,

doesn't necessarily have that as their top interest,

but needs to go pick a path,

if that's kind of preventing a student

that is interested in it from being in the class,

like to me, that's an issue.

And so like just being able to find maybe ways,

maybe that's a good question for you.

Do you have any advice for industry folks

on how to approach their schools with that conversation?

Is it talking to them at an admin level?

Is it like any ideas there?

It would almost have to be a district level.

And I really never thought about it

from the industry standpoint.

I've always thought about it from the education standpoint

that we talk when we first open,

that it would be great if either the first year,

the students are here,

that they are not tied to a specific program,

but that first year they rotate around to all the programs

and we figure out where they fit.

Or maybe between their seventh and their eighth grade year,

we do a summer program where they come in

and experience all the programs for two, three days

before they apply, so they kind of know.

And unfortunately, we really haven't gotten motivated

to do either of those,

even though we keep having the conversations.

But again, from the district perspective,

again, in order to provide equal opportunities

for all students,

I don't know how much they're willing to bend that at all.

Because again, like a pre-interview process

or something ahead of time

to where the students make sure that's where they need to be,

so it doesn't take away from somebody

who could be successful in that program.

I would also love to tie that to some form of job shadowing

or work experience as well, right?

Even with some of the younger students,

just to get in and see, does this truly interest you?

Is this something that you truly are interested in?

And I think the more you can do that,

the more of a favor you're doing for the student,

because we get this in our, I'm sure you see it too,

where we'll get a student that goes,

maybe through a high school program,

then goes into a tech school program,

spends a couple of years in the industry,

doesn't like it, and then leaves.

And I always thought, why don't we do more vetting,

not only for the good of the shops,

but for the students themselves?

Because if they're gonna come out

and spend a bunch of money on technical education

and then tools, and then decide

that they don't wanna do that,

you've put them in a, and I shouldn't say you,

the industry and the student have put that student

in a really bad spot to start off with,

because then they're digging out of a hole

that's not going to help them in the long term.

So I think it's as much about identifying students

that don't wanna be in the industry

as much as it is the ones that do,

and then finding those ones that truly do,

and as education and as industry,

kind of putting our arms around them and saying,

you know what, and this is where I love job shadows as well,

because if I can get a student

that's interested in our industry

to go see a body shop, to go see a general repair shop,

see a dealership, see a truck shop,

see kind of all of what our industry has to offer,

and then identify what makes them the happiest

or what looks the most fun to them,

or just really kind of, what really appeals to them,

I think they've got a better shot

at being more successful when they do come into our industry.

So I started to get on my soapbox there,

but it is one of those things where I'm like,

industry, we could help these schools out

by getting more exposure to young people,

and then also just being involved with your school district,

because if you sense that you're having some struggles

getting the right kids into a program,

hopefully that drives a conversation

with administration, school board, teachers,

whoever it might be to try and write the path,

otherwise you're kind of going down the wrong path

for a long time.

Right, because that is the whole reason I'm here.

That's the reason I got into it.

I need, we need kids in the industry,

and not just kids who can change parts,

but really understand what they're doing

and can keep up with the newer technology.

And I think it is coming back around

where the education system realizes that,

but again, that's why I'm here.

I'm not here to babysit a student

who wants to work on his own car.

We need kids working.

So my target is to have my students working

their senior year in an internship or a job,

like half my seniors last year,

even though it was only 12 seniors,

half of them were working in the industry

by the time they graduated.

Are you fighting any resistance to employers

with the under 18 stuff?

That's something we see as a struggle

in a lot of areas throughout the country?

It's getting better.

Here locally, we have a couple of dealerships

that have found a way to work

with their insurance carriers to do that.

Yes, it's still in certain situations,

it is still an issue.

Like, for example, within the district,

our own bus garage transportation department,

I think they have to be 18 before they could do it.

But I was like, you have a captive audience here.

If there's a way we could work an internship

with our diesel students and the bus garage,

you might have better success

keeping some technicians there.

I love that you said that

you're starting to see that change a little bit

because I'm seeing the same thing too, right?

Where you've had, especially dealerships

and some of the bigger dealership groups

have been historically just opposed

to bringing anybody under 18 in.

And the excuse for that oftentimes

is because of insurance.

What I hope, either this conversation

or other conversations we have,

I hope what it does is drive a conversation

between these groups and their insurance folks to say,

hey, listen, we've got to figure out a way

to kind of allow these younger people in

so that we can get them better training earlier,

we can get them more exposure earlier.

And I think, I've said this in a lot of content

that we've done, but when I was in the dealership world,

I put myself at fault for that

because the ownership group that I work for just said,

I was like, man, I'd love to put together

a youth apprenticeship program and do this the right way.

And they said, well, we can't bring anybody under 18 in.

And I said, why?

And they said, well, because of insurance.

And I left it at that, right?

And looking back in my career,

I wish I would have said, well,

can I talk to the insurance people?

Can I get a better understanding of why

or maybe what the restrictions are truly?

And is it just a blanket?

You can't hire anybody under 18

or is there, you can and there's these restrictions.

I just wish I would have had a better understanding

of it when I was on the industry side.

And one of the things, again,

we have a lot of support here locally from the dealerships.

They've been great and they're really behind

what we're doing here at the school.

But I think we're really set up for working

with the community and the industry

and bringing them in and working with our students.

And maybe if you can't have them at 18

until they're 18 at the dealership,

come in and work with them here

where they're covered while they're here on campus

and build that relationship.

And then maybe you will have that student

when they graduate, when they're ready,

instead of losing them to McDonald's

or some other place where they're making 15 bucks an hour

to start.

Is that something you're seeing too?

I mean, obviously there's competitive pressures

for our youth and getting,

they have options for jobs, right?

It's like just us looking for these people.

It's everybody looking for these people.

And you know what, if Amazon's paying them 20 bucks

an hour in high school or 18 bucks an hour in high school,

I remember myself as a kid,

I sure would like a nicer car

and I sure like to be able to go out with my friends

and be able to afford going out to Pizza Hut

or wherever you were going.

Do you see that still with students

where that entry level wage is still pretty important?

To a certain extent,

but I think a lot of the dealers that I talk to

are doing something similar to what I used to do.

I always used to do like,

an hourly with an entry level technician

with a flagging incentive, kind of a hybrid pay plan.

And I think a lot of them are doing something like that.

So there is an incentive for them to learn

and get their skills up and their productivity up

instead of just getting by on 15 bucks an hour.

Because to be fair, that is kind of a good starting wage

for somebody I think in this industry still.

Yes, if they have the opportunity to generate more,

if they are better prepared,

yeah, I think that works very well for them.

I agree with that.

Have you, how about when you get a student into a shop,

are you seeing them take mentorship

a little more seriously now as well?

Oh yes, but yeah, I've been very happy with what I've seen

because I've had students that I send out

and then I think they're really good.

They maybe not as a technician,

but maybe as a parts person or a service advisor.

And what I've seen is these dealers will bring in

a new student and they'll work them

through all the different areas in the dealership.

So they get a feel for everything

and kind of figure out where they might best fit,

which is perfect.

That's exactly how it should be.

I love that.

I actually, I'm a big believer

and even an experienced tech doing that same thing, right?

Like when you hire an experienced tech,

have them spend some time in different departments

or if they're in an independent shop,

go spend some time sitting by the service manager

or the service writers or in a dealership, same thing.

Like go around to the different departments.

And I think at times that helps give that person

a better perception of what that service manager

is doing as well, right?

It's not just them sitting and playing

on their computer all day.

Like there's a lot of pressure on that position

and a lot of uncomfortable conversations.

So I think it gives,

I don't think I've ever met a technician

that moved to a management position that didn't say,

this is way harder than I thought it would have been.

So giving that exposure at a younger age,

I think is a really, really smart idea.

Yes, absolutely.

If you're an automotive diesel or collision instructor

or an educator helping students explore these careers,

this is for you.

Building relationships with local shops takes time

and knowing who's willing to help isn't always clear.

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brings schools and industry together

on one easy online platform at no cost for schools.

At the heart of ASC Connects is School Assist,

the online resource that lets you post

exactly what your program needs.

From guest speakers, shop tours, tools,

advisory committee members, career fair participants,

and even student job opportunities,

shops can see your requests and respond directly to you.

You'll also get access to instructor-focused resources,

webinars, and templates designed to save time

and strengthen industry partnerships.

Even if your school doesn't have a formal auto

or diesel program, you can still participate

to help connect interested students

with real-world opportunities.

ASC Connects is free for schools.

Get started at wrenchway.com slash solutions slash schools

or use the link in the show notes.

So you're doing so much to prepare your students

for the real world, right?

And getting into a shop, in a lot of cases,

we have a flat rate shops,

shops that are paying their technicians on flat rate.

You found it important to educate your students

a little bit more on the flat rate system.

Talk to me a little bit about that.

Why did you feel like this was important for you

to maybe better educate these folks?

There was a lot of different reasons,

but I mean, flat rate,

unless you're actually working within it,

I think sometimes it's a little hard to understand.

And I wanted the students to understand,

we get a vehicle into a diagnosis on it,

presented to the customer,

what does that 1.3 or whatever, what does that mean?

And for me, I've always told the kids,

to me, you're great in this class, it's not important.

I mean, yes, it should be a reflection

of how your performance is in this class,

but at the end of the day, when you graduate,

if you're going into this industry,

most employers probably aren't gonna care,

if you've got a C or a B or whatever.

To me, what you produce

and how your employability characteristics are,

where you're in the class is kind of more important to me,

because ultimately you will be working for somebody,

at least I hope most of them will be,

unless they think they're all gonna be internet famous

and work for themselves.

But I kind of wanted to offer something different,

because I don't want you to do it for a grade,

I want you to do it for yourself.

And I've been reflecting a lot more on time,

time is the most valuable resource they have,

and they should be investing it in themselves,

instead of on social media.

And I thought this might be a good way

to kind of incorporate some type of grading performance system,

along with some type of incentive,

and get them to think about it,

think about how they're spending their time

and investing their time.

All right, well walk me through the system,

and how you're teaching them.

So the idea is anything that they do,

related to being in my classroom,

whether it's online curriculum,

whether it's cleaning,

whether it's working on a vehicle,

whether they're working on a trainer,

anything they do related to my classroom and shop,

should have a time associated with it.

And that's probably been the biggest slowdown

of me getting this firmly in place,

is trying to figure out what that looks like,

because each class is 50 minutes.

And so I'm kind of starting out with,

well that's eight tenths of an hour.

So if you're fully productive for that class period,

that should be at least eight tenths an hour,

depending upon what you're doing.

At the end of the week,

that comes out to 4.6 approximately hours.

And so that's productive time

that you have available to you.

It's up to you how you best use that time.

And so I want to have things available

that they can either do in the shop,

or in the classroom,

or something that they have to take the initiative to do,

but ultimately they will see a reward by doing that,

the more productive they are.

So there may be some deductions for,

if you're on your phone,

or your language, or communication,

different things that we may penalize it a little bit,

or for example, you're working on a vehicle,

you're in a bad habit of setting tools up on the calorie,

and we lose the tool.

That's gonna get deducted from your pay.

So the idea is we take whatever hours

you generated that week,

we multiply it times a labor rate of a dollar per hour.

And so at the end of the week,

if you've worked out 4.6 hours, or even more,

if you're more productive, you may have five, 10 bucks.

The other component of it is they're ASCs,

a little incentive for them

to pass their student level ASC certification.

So just like in the shop, you pass an ASC,

we're gonna bump you up a dollar.

So instead of being a 15 an hour,

you're gonna be a 16 an hour.

So at the end of the week,

we'll take your pay rate times your time,

and then reduce that to a 10th of a dollar,

and start generating some income.

And go ahead.

This is awesome, as you're talking through it,

I absolutely love how you're tying everything to time,

and just teaching them how to prioritize their time,

and that time matters,

that you're not just coming in and milking the clock,

like you're in that shop environment,

this is a very great way to kind of dip their toe

in that water, and be able to kind of teach them

the right way.

When you're looking at these tasks

that get time allowed to them, how are you tracking it?

So if they clean off a work bench,

or whatever task you have them do,

how do they track their time?

So what I created years ago,

when I first came up with this idea

and trying to get it going,

is I would actually create a worksheet,

and it's based on the three C's.

This is the cause, shop is dirty,

vehicle needs inspection, whatever.

What did you determine is the cause of that,

and what's your correction?

What did you do, and have a time down at the bottom,

and have it on a spreadsheet,

and just track it on a spreadsheet?

I am trying to move that to digital

within our learning management software,

which I have not found a perfect system,

but the past couple of weeks,

I've been working on them doing a daily check-in quiz

in our learning management system,

just to get in the habit of them going on

at the end of the period,

and logging what they did to kind of build that habit.

So when it comes down to actually awarding a time to it,

they don't miss it,

because they're on the habit of doing it.

Have they started complaining about the time allowed?

Yeah, I had to put a flat rate to it.

Yeah, we're kind of not there yet.

I said, you know, I'm trying to build that habit now,

so the next nine weeks, I want to roll this out,

and that way we can use this last nine weeks

to kind of work all the bugs out.

So next school year, we have this in place, ready to go,

and it works for everybody.

In all seriousness,

what is your system for coming up with the times?

Because that is interesting, just in general.

Well, like some of the online training,

a lot of those actually have a time associated.

We do a lot of forward training,

and when they finish the course,

it gives them three hours, or one and a half hours,

or whatever, that would be kind of an example

where we would just fill that in.

The online curriculum that I use,

same thing, they finish a course,

there'll be a time associated with it.

Some of that we do have to generate.

I mean, again, going back when I first came up with the idea,

I had one of my students, I said, go out,

I want you to go through one of the student boxes,

I want you to pull all the tools out,

I want you to clean them, make sure they're in the proper box,

proper space, everything's cleaned up,

and we came up with the time, it took them about three hours.

But kind of break it down,

so if we're gonna try and do it within a class period,

are we gonna award 50 minutes, 0.8,

or are we gonna do 1.5, or what are we gonna do?

We're still working on building those times

for depending upon what the task is.

Man, this is brilliant.

I worked for a manufacturer for quite a few years,

and I got to spend a lot of time

in their warranty department,

even though that wasn't my job,

they just did a great job at training,

where just like we talked about before,

you spend time in different areas of the company,

spent a lot of time in warranty,

and then I was able to view the time study process

really up close, and it was fascinating to me

because they are doing it, they do it multiple times,

and just to set a baseline, they do it multiple times,

you'll hear technicians complain a lot about,

well, they did that,

but they did it on a perfect machine with no rust,

or no anything, like everything,

all the tools were there,

and so they have a valid complaint,

but then what I thought was interesting

was that then the manufacturer themselves

was then looking at time studies constantly, right?

So they're looking at how much time dealers were submitting

and really just trying to identify what is a fair time,

and it's gotta be fair to the OEM,

and it's gotta be fair to the dealer as well,

and to the technician,

and there's just a lot of thought that goes into it.

So the fact that you're going through this process

and trying to even work out the kinks with time,

you're setting this platform up,

or this system that I think is really, really smart,

because then it is top of mind constantly

for these students,

it's real world stuff that they're going to see,

and even if they don't go into a flat rate environment,

just understanding the importance of time

and that everything is tracked,

and that's not a bad thing,

we're not trying to hold it over your head,

it's, you know, this is what we need

to be a good profitable shop.

Just, man, I can't love this more, this is so cool.

Yeah, the actual shop repairs,

regular repair times, that's the easy part,

I always explain to them,

the first time you do anything,

it's gonna take you twice as long,

and even some oil changes we get into now,

used to be 0.3 or 0.4 was pretty standard for an oil change.

We did one the other day where it was actually 0.5

in the labor time guide,

and because we do have to be aware of some more things

on newer cars, as far as resetting oil life index

and stuff like that,

and I explained to the kids,

even an oil change, we may take that time

and we're not gonna do 0.3, 0.4,

we may do 0.8 a full period,

because I don't want you to skip anything,

I want you to still follow the process,

I wanna make sure your area is clean,

where you're done, tools are put away,

and I want you to take your time,

because that's what you're here for,

you're here to learn,

you're here to make your mistakes,

but again, we're not trying to turn things

as quickly as possible,

yes, I do want you to be productive,

but you can be productive in other ways,

let's not shortcut stuff,

and kind of what will typically just double the time,

in the labor time guy,

for anything they're doing for the first time.

How have the students taken it?

And I'm guessing a lot of them weren't overly familiar

with the flat rate system before they come into this.

Yeah, and there's still a lot of apprehension on it,

I mean, some of the kids are excited,

but I think they're looking at the long-term goal,

because I keep throwing that carrot out to them,

that hey, at the end of this, you bank it,

we may have something big that you can do with those funds,

but again, just trying to get it started

and getting all of them involved in it

is going to be really interesting to see,

because I do think a lot of them don't see

how it's important to them,

and I'm hoping, if I can get them to buy into it,

that they will see really,

if they're using their time wisely while they're here,

it's going to make them better

once they get out of the real world,

because there's so many kids come back after the years,

and I say, I wish I would have done this while I was here,

I wish I would have spent more time doing this

while I was here,

and trying to get them to understand it,

because at our age, when we were in high school,

we didn't know what we wanted to do,

we knew we liked working on cars,

and we screwed stuff up and whatever,

but again, it's hard to tell them at this age,

this is what you should be doing,

I want them to do it for them,

not for me, not for a grade,

is doing it to better yourself,

and if you don't want to do it, that's fine,

I just, again, I'm trying to help you be the best

that you can be when you get out of here.

Well, and this introduction to flat rate,

I think is so important,

because I think it's in the same boat as diagnostic,

where it can be so intimidating for a young person,

and I went to tech school for automotive technology,

and I just remember all the rumblings of like,

oh, what happens when you get on flat rate,

and just the nervousness in general,

and the more you can make somebody comfortable

with the system, and help them understand that you can,

if you do this well,

you can make a very, very good living for yourself,

and it's just a matter of kind of taking that intimidation

away from it, and then kind of getting them exposed to,

it's a system, and this is how you work the system,

this is how you best make the opportunity,

or make the best of an opportunity,

when you do get into a shop,

I just think you can gamify it a little bit, right?

You can make it a fun piece of their job,

rather than something that is dreaded,

and we see it in comments all the time,

we saw it in our just recent Voice of Technician survey,

that just got released,

like a lot of just general hatred for flat rate,

and I do think some of it comes down to,

some people don't understand it,

some people do have terrible flat rate systems,

and it's a killer,

but there are a lot of technicians

that absolutely love flat rate,

and I've had them basically yell at me at times,

or like, if you ever take flat rate away from me,

I'm out of here,

and so I think the more you can educate somebody

on a system, the more they understand it,

and then if flat rate's not for them,

there are shops that aren't flat rate, right?

So maybe that's the avenue you go,

and if that's something where you feel like

it's gonna be too much pressure for you,

go a different route,

but if you have an understanding of it,

I think you can make a really, really good living off of it.

Yeah, I think it still makes sense in dealerships

where you're always working on that same type of engineering

where you can be more productive

because you understand how things are built,

whereas an independent shop

where you may be working on a Jaguar,

then a Volkswagen, and then a Chevy,

and the engineering's a little bit different,

so it does take you longer,

and it's like working on something the first time every time,

so flat rate may be in an independent shop

is not the best thing,

and I did work for that fleet garage,

and those texts were on straight hourly,

and it was great.

I mean, I still was able to keep them productive

because I knew where the pieces needed to go

to get things done and keep that thing flowing well.

Is that something that you talk about in the classroom

in terms of the differences in pay plans

and maybe what to look for once they do go into the industry,

or is that something you don't dive as much into?

Probably not as much as I should,

because again, I am focused more on the dealership world.

To me, I did have a little experience

in an independent shop,

and I thought it was kind of tough

to be as successful as being in a dealership,

so I think starting out,

that is kind of more what I focus on

is trying to get them into the dealership

where I think they're gonna get more support

and potentially be more successful

if they're in the right position.

Yeah, and I think the understanding of flat rate

still even applies with that independent shop

with the hourly workers, right?

And the reason I say that is

they're still quoting out work that way, right?

They're still quoting out,

and we're seeing more and more shops

go to an hourly plus incentive type of bonus,

so it's still very impactful to their paycheck

if they understand time,

they understand the need to turn time in a shop,

and the more they can grasp that,

and I do think the most successful flat rate techs

have been the ones that just fully embrace it, right?

Like, I'm going to be successful at this.

We have a technician that I talk to a lot, Josh Arnold.

He's been on the podcast, I think four times,

but even with his approach,

he had talked about how much he loved flat rate

early in his career,

and it really threw me for a loop when he said it

because you don't hear that very often, right?

And so his approach, he said was,

listen, the dealership was open for more hours

than we had scheduled in the shop,

and so if I got an engine job in,

and it was going to give me 10 hours to do this engine,

I would go up to the service manager and say,

hey, listen, this is going to take me 20 to 25 hours to do,

but I'm going to do it slow

because I want to learn the right way

to do it the first time.

And so he said, from his perspective,

he didn't feel undue pressure

because he was on the same page as his manager.

There were hours over and above his working hours,

so he could take some more time

knowing that he's not going to get paid for all that time.

But for him, he viewed it as education of I'm going out

and I'm going to spend some time

learning how to do this the right way.

So the next time I do it, like you said,

I'm going to do it a lot quicker.

I'm going to have things efficiently laid out

with my toolbox,

like just everything kind of clicked for him.

And I just thought that was such a unique,

great approach to flat rate in a young person

that I had not seen before.

There's the best thing in himself.

Well, that is one of the things in our industry.

I think we've got to look at a little bit differently

from the technicians end,

is that if you are going to training,

if you're doing some of this stuff

that maybe you're not directly getting paid for,

it's just like anything else.

Like if you're not studying,

you're not reading after you graduate,

you're not trying to get better at your craft,

you're going to struggle more.

But if you have that growth mindset

and you want to be a better technician

and you're going to take that webinar at eight o'clock at night

or you're going to try to seek out that Saturday class

or just something,

it's crazy to me how much separation

somebody that has that growth mindset

can have from somebody that doesn't have that.

And once they get into the field,

they can separate themselves pretty quickly.

Yeah, and again, trying to get the kids to understand

that I want them to do it for themselves.

I don't want them to do it for me

and I want them to do it for grades

just because it's an assignment.

I want you to really dive into it to improve yourself.

And that's probably one of the toughest things

that we have to overcome,

because they are used to just doing things

to prepare for a test and whatever.

And that's why I say to me, grades don't matter.

I'm not worried about what your score is.

You're going to make mistakes, you're going to fail,

but that's how you learn.

And I'm more concerned about that.

I feel like that should be education

as a whole everywhere, right?

Like, a lot of times we'll teach to the grade

or you're teaching to try and pass a test.

Right, instead of truly understanding what you're,

you know, you're almost teaching them to memorize stuff

rather than try to understand why they're doing something.

Exactly, exactly.

I love, love, love that approach.

Do you see, like,

feedback from industry when they're looking at this?

And I'm assuming, do you have an advisory committee?

Yeah.

Yes, again, the dealership group here

has been very supportive of our program.

I'm just not real good about, because I've been there

and I know how tough it is to step out of the dealership

and take time away from what you should be doing.

But, you know, it is kind of important,

we do need to do it.

I just hate to ask that of them,

so I'm not real good about doing that as regularly as I should.

But yes, yes, I do.

You're not alone, you're not alone there.

And I, you know, I've been on a lot of advisory committees

over the course of my career

and it does, it's hard to step out.

It's hard to get away to do that.

But I also think it's incredibly vital,

incredibly important.

And for you dealerships or shops that are listening out there,

this is a way to give back,

but also get benefit in the long run, right?

Because this is your way to give real-time feedback.

This is your way to get a better relationship with the school.

And, you know, I've talked to a lot of schools about this,

but the importance of having more than just one dealer

or more than just one shop or more than one type of shop

involved in the program is really, really important

because you want kind of that feedback from everybody.

And what I've seen over the years, especially locally here

and the ones that I've been involved in,

is that the more schools get comfortable asking for stuff,

the better the relationship is with the shops, right?

Because then you're almost training the shops to get involved.

And it's not an inconvenience.

And it's really something they plan out.

And, you know, I look at the,

say for example, a dealership, that relationship,

you have to be on the same page

as your dealer principal or your general manager

because if maybe you're that service manager

that's gonna go help a school out

and the shop is busy as can be,

and then you're not there,

then you're getting in trouble, right?

And so if it's bought in from your executive team,

and so when you're missing and it's really, really busy

and you're missing for half a day, they understand why.

And there's a plan in place to cover you.

And I do think that part's very underrated

because if you're on the same page as your leadership team,

then there's no guilt.

There's no, I think a lot of times we carry that guilt

of like we're not at the desk and people are freaking out,

but you have to plan for that.

And so, you know, to me, it kind of,

it honestly breaks my heart that you feel that way

about shops getting involved

because you don't wanna bother them

because from my perspective, industry,

we've gotta step up here.

And to me, there's no excuses.

Like we have to be involved with schools,

we have to be able to bring resources,

we have to be able to do these things

to support the programs in a way to where

they're not just struggling to get by,

but they're thriving and they are really,

they have all the resources they need.

They're struggling with something with administration

or budgetary, like if we have to show up

to a school board meeting,

we're showing up to a school board meeting.

Like just all of the things that we need to do

as an industry, and I just never want a school

to feel guilty about asking, right?

Like that's my big thing.

Yeah.

And again, I think that's more me

because of my background.

I know how important it is for me to be there

and not miss things that maybe if I was there,

I couldn't take care of and address properly.

But, you know, again, local dealership community

is very supportive and I'm sure, you know,

whenever I put it out there that,

hey, we need to do an advisory committee meeting

before the end of this semester,

it's not gonna be a problem.

And I think one of the things that helps that

and other schools that I've seen,

because I am an ETL for ASC,

I saw a good in many schools

and the schools that have a lot of members,

yeah, you're not gonna get all of them to every meeting,

but you'll have enough to have a very productive meeting

because you have so many people participating in that.

Yeah.

And I think when you get more people there,

it drives better conversations

in those advisory committee meetings too, right?

Because then it feels like one person will say something.

And even, I think the beauty of it

when you have a really good advisory committee

is that you'll have competitors talking openly about stuff.

And I think maybe 20 years ago,

I don't think that would have ever happened.

So now you're starting to get them building up.

And if their desire is to have a strong program,

they're gonna kind of put the swords down

and hopefully help the program as a whole.

And I think that's what's needed across the country.

We've got to put the swords down

and we've got to support these programs.

Yeah, because we're all in the same situation.

I mean, we need the kids in industry,

so everybody kind of needs to work together

to help us do what's best for them.

Yeah, I agree.

So as we're talking,

I do want to put a bow on the flat rate education side here.

Any elements that you want to add to this

as you build this program?

Because I think you've got something here.

I think you've got something really, really cool.

So the only thing we didn't really touch is

what the kids could use those funds for.

And I came up with five categories.

The easiest one is food and drink,

because the kids are constantly running out

to the vending machine.

They come in with polar pops or Starbucks.

They're trying to sneak out and go to McDonald's

or Chick-fil-A or something for lunch.

So that's an easy one,

but I think that's really an area that I can show them,

hey, if you hadn't spent $3 on this here,

you would have this much down the road

is where I want to go with that.

But when the kids pass all 10 of their ASCs,

I get them a tool cart,

and so I want to have an area

where they can actually start purchasing tools.

I'll have some tools that they can buy

to start building that cart

once they pass all 10 of their ASCs.

We want to have an area for swag,

shirts, hats, cups, whatever,

with school logo or manufacturers logos.

We can get them, if they like Mazda,

we have some Mazda stuff.

They like Toyota, we have some Polo stuff

that they can buy some swag.

And whether that's here at the school

or ideally, if I can work it with the manufacturer,

I would love them to say,

hey, I'm going to go stop by Toyota this weekend.

I'm going to go pick up a t-shirt

with some of my money that I earned at the school.

And so that's starting to build that relationship

with that dealership.

Experiences, we have a local private track

that I would love to provide some of the kids

the opportunity to use their funds down the road for that

or whether it's movies, gift cards, whatever,

some type of experiences.

And then again, my big idea is either,

we always have cars donated that need work

and then what do you do with them when they're done?

Well, I thought if I've got kids that will actually

set out in their mind that the four years that they're here,

they're going to bank all that money.

And I haven't really done the math on it

to see what it could potentially be.

But let's say they have $5,000 when they graduate.

Would it be great if they could buy that car

or go to the local dealership and say,

hey, I want to apply this towards the purchase

of a new or used car and have that.

So that's again, one of my grand ideas

and whether or not that's going to work, I don't know.

But again, teaching the kids how if you really want something,

you're going to earn it instead of it being given to you.

That is awesome.

So are you looking, how do you fund that?

Like, is there something industry can help out with there

and trying to?

That's kind of why I posted it on Wrenchway

in the first place, because I really want to get it going.

The food and drink stuff is easy.

I get on the stands or whatever and buy the stuff.

That's the easy part.

The other stuff is a little bit more involved.

And over the years, the dealers that I've talked to

are very supportive of it.

And again, just trying to figure out what that looks like

is kind of where we're at.

But the dealers that I have talked to

are very interested in trying to participate now.

To the vehicle purchase thing,

I don't know if that's going to happen.

But I thought, well, shoot, you've got to use car

that you're in for four grand or five grand.

And you can mark it down a couple of grand

and use those funds.

Maybe that's what we need to do.

I don't know.

But I would love to see the kids work

towards something big like that

if they can really commit themselves

to not spending it on the vending machine or whatever.

And I like the guy that bought the airplane

was Mountain Dew Caps, right?

Yeah.

You get the, I think it's a great idea

to have that aspirational thing to go toward too, right?

Where, and I think there too, it teaches them

the power of saving and the power of, you know,

working towards something and not getting

that immediate satisfaction where applicable, right?

Like if they can work toward a bigger goal,

that would be phenomenal.

That would be really, really cool.

I just, man, this is cool.

I think for those of you in industry

that are in that area, you need to take this seriously.

You need to reach out to David

and try to start conversations here

because I truly think that this is a really innovative approach,

like an innovative approach, right?

Like it's different than any other school

I've ever heard do it.

I think tying any program

that can really have that tie to time

is, that's very, very smart.

So I give you a lot of credit for putting this together

and having maybe the open-mindedness

to be able to approach it this way.

I just, a ton of credit to you for this.

This is so cool.

Yeah, just, you know, even since I started 12 years ago,

I've always thought there's gonna be a better way

for us to do this.

And I think where I'm at now, I'm closer to what that is.

And if we can get some of these things in place

and again, working closer with industry,

I think we can get there.

And I think it could be very cool,

especially if enough of the kids really buy into it

and see the benefits of doing it.

Oh, I hope we get your message out.

All right, we've got some fun questions

to end the show with for you

and just to kind of get to know you type of questions.

What was your first car?

First car was a 67 Impala SS.

Whoa.

That's a pretty awesome car to start with.

Yeah, it was the month or so I got to drive it

until I pulled the motor out and started going through it.

True car guy.

What is your favorite kind of food?

So my favorite kind of food,

and these are kind of the questions that I go over

with the kids at the beginning of the year

because I want to get to know them.

So, you know, my favorite food, you know,

I always asked the kids, I said, you know,

if you could only eat one type of food

the rest of your life, what would it be?

And for me, it's tough.

He's either a prime river salmon,

but I think salmon's probably the better choice

because I could eat salmon or rice almost every day

if it's done right.

Healthy option too.

You're good there.

Yeah, I like that.

We like to ask like a routine type question.

So if you're comfortable answering,

do you wake up at the same time every morning?

I wish.

You know, I need to be at my 530,

but there's some mornings like this morning

I wake up at 430 and my head start racing

and I start thinking about,

well, what am I going to talk about today on this?

And I just can't get back to sleep.

And sometimes it's 330, sometimes it's 230,

or, you know, sometimes I do sleep until the alarm,

but yeah, it's tough.

I'm the same way you are.

Yesterday morning, I woke up at 2 a.m.

and I had heard somebody, I forget,

some influencer online talking about how

you're supposed to view those as test days

because like I went to bed at 10,

I got four hours of sleep

and I had a full day of everything.

And I think that's why I woke up, right?

It was like, I was thinking about my schedule

and your mind gets racing.

And then by that point, when you wake up,

you're just like, I may as well get up and start working

because I just, if I don't,

I'm just going to sit here and stare at the ceiling

for the next six hours.

Mm-hmm, yes.

Well, this is awesome.

I just, I hope anybody that's listening

and especially people that are local to your area,

I hope they get involved and at least reach out.

Is that okay for them to do if they listen to this

and they're interested in talking with you?

Absolutely, yeah, and I would say

my goodness for doing it, yes.

Yeah, yeah.

And what's the best way for them to reach you?

Probably my email, you know, phone does work,

but a lot of times I don't have my phone on me.

I kind of like to set an example for the kids.

So I do try and use email as best contact,

which is David, I'm sorry, D-K-O-C-H-E-R,

addPASCO, P-A-S-C-O, dot K-12, dot F-L, dot U-S.

And we'll get a link to that in the show notes,

so that if people want to reach out to you

and want to participate in this program, they can do so.

I just, from my perspective,

when I see somebody trying something different and unique

and something that I think is going to have a huge benefit

for the industry, should it take hold,

I want to get as many resources behind it as we can.

So for those of you that are listening,

if you can reach out to David

and talk to him about what he's doing with this program,

I think we as an industry need to bring the support to him

and really support this program,

because this is different.

This is something that could really, really have a big impact

on those entry-level technicians

as they come into our industry.

They get a better understanding of how we operate.

And I think it might set that stage for more success

once they get in early on in their career.

So David, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on.

I hope we need to have a follow-up conversation to this

down the road, so that we can kind of track the progress

of this and continue to bring it the spotlight

that it deserves.

So kudos to you.

Thanks for being on the show.

Hope to do it again.

Yeah, thank you.

And again, we didn't get to talk about automotive history.

So yeah, if we don't follow up, we can talk about that.

We could have a whole podcast just on that.

We talked as we were kicking this off,

that David's a big car guy.

I love automotive history and learning about the people

that came before us in this industry.

And my goodness, I feel terrible.

We didn't get a chance to talk about any of that.

So we got a lot to talk about yet.

Yeah, because we have two Bricklins.

You know what a Bricklin is?

I don't know what a Bricklin is.

Okay, so we'll save that for a later time.

Well, thanks again for being on the show.

Can't wait for the next time.

Sounds good.

With ASC, we run the ASC Connects community,

which empowers shops and dealerships

with reliable data, school connections,

and industry insights,

while helping grow the future technician workforce.

You can learn more by visiting wrenchway.com.

Thank you so much for listening.

We'll see you next week.

Simulating a Flat Rate Pay Plan in the Classroom

About this episode

GM

used cars

Vogue Tire

wheels and tires

customizing vehicles

Hot Wheels

STEM

magnet school

automotive program

diesel program

carpentry

welding

cybersecurity

insurance

flat rate shops

flat rate environment

regular repair times

oil change

labor time guide

oil life index reset

independent shop

Jaguar

Volkswagen

hourly pay

dealership

Chevrolet Impala

Bricklins

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