SMMT blasts EV sales targets, Big Motoring World court case continues, and what's going on at Cargiant? – with Martin Miller, episode 247

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Welcome back to the Cardiola podcast.

If you haven't listened before, we're going to pick our favourite stories of the week

and ask an automotive industry guest who chose the best stories.

I'm Rebecca Chaplin, contributing editor at Cardiola Magazine,

and today I'm standing in for your usual host, John Ray, because he is,

I was going to say, clubbing with some seals, but that's a kev joke that...

Don't make that joke.

It's in my head too much, he keeps saying it.

Yeah, John is off taking photos of seals, as you do in Scotland.

So, wasn't going to have good enough internet signal.

And who do you call when you don't have good enough internet signal? Me.

Joining me today is your usual co-host, James Bagot, though.

How are you doing, James?

I'm fine, thank you. Well, I say fine, but I'm a little bit croaky,

and I've not been very well this week, get the violins out.

And I lost my voice on Monday, which most people were very happy,

very happy about it, weren't they?

But it's slowly coming back, so I'm going to croak and cough my way through this podcast,

so apologies in advance.

Okay, well, more importantly, we're less than a week away from Cardiolive now,

so are you going to be better for that?

I hope so. I really hope so.

I've been doing a lot of work on Cardiolive this week,

working on the scripts, working on all the questions for all of the guests that we've got.

It takes place next Thursday, March the 19th.

Very, very excited about that. We've got lots of people coming now.

Ticket sales always go crazy last two weeks.

The motor trade seems to just realise that stuff happens two weeks in advance,

so that's really picked up.

I've got loads of people coming, and I'm looking forward to hosting it.

I've got some new shoes to show off as well.

Does it get any more exciting than that?

Anything else you want to talk about this week?

What's going on at the Clever Car Collection?

Oh, what is going on at the Clever Car Collection?

Well, it is March the 13th, as we record this,

and as it stands, we are at zero car sales this month.

That is because, well, we've sold two, but we've also bought two backs,

so we're sort of like canceling each other out,

so we're glassing that at zero, which is a bit disappointing, if I'm honest,

but as you know, our helping hand that is Luke was away for a couple of weeks,

and we just dropped down to no cars advertised.

This week, we've really, really worked hard at getting stock back up,

but you forget that there is this sort of lull and dip from advertising it

to actually the car being sold.

I think Auto Trader told us at one point it's at least a couple of weeks

before the people who are considering your cars actually make contact.

I mean, we all think they're going to call us overnight.

So maybe we're just in that lull, but I'm hoping to finish.

This is our last couple of weeks of the financial year,

so I'm sort of hoping to have a strong end of the year,

but it doesn't look like that way at the moment.

Did you...

Am I right in thinking that last month was your best month ever, though?

Yeah, last month was our best month ever.

And didn't it start rubbish and end quite well as well?

It did.

So you never know, do you?

You never know in this game.

It just...

It might come good, but yeah, it's been a little bit of a slow start,

but can I just tell you about one other exciting thing I've been doing this week?

Yeah.

I was up in London on Monday for another Battle of the Buyers part two,

so people who follow our YouTube channel will see

that we get some dealers together at Carwell's head office,

and they spend my money, which is always a little bit nerve-racking.

We had Jamie Caple from Carkey, Scott Sibley from Redgate Lodge,

Steven Douglas from Really Easy Car Credit,

and Ibi, who runs a dealership based in Birmingham.

I can't remember the name of them.

I'm going to shoot myself for that.

But yeah, they came along and spent our money in the auction.

I'm not going to spoil the video, but to be honest with you,

I am rather nervous about all of the cars they bought.

Let's put it this way.

Joe and I went through the list yesterday

and tried to work out which of the cars we would have bought,

and out of the 10 that were purchased, we would have bought two

if we took into account our own metrics.

At the last minute, Carwell's John Vic Manis, the CEO,

who was on his sick bed at home after an operation on his foot,

decided to get involved and he bought us two cars

part of the competition midway through as well.

So we've got to sell his as well.

So yeah, that would be interesting.

Then we're going to be turning up in a couple of weeks' time.

But the video will be out on the YouTube channel soon

so people will be able to see what horrors those people have bought us.

Yeah, I'm going to cast your mind back quickly

to when you did the video first time around, though,

and didn't Joe Betty try and screw you over with two cars?

One didn't actually end up getting bought because it was so bad.

The other one, I'm pretty sure, was a Jeep Renegade that sold really fast.

It did sell really fast, and we've bought a few of them since then.

So yeah, it's a learning curve.

But yeah, I am slightly nervous about what is to come.

But anyway, more on that in the coming weeks.

So we introduced, I guess.

Yes, I'm going to flip over.

I'm going to see him frantically desperate to comment in the background.

We've got the wonderful Martin Miller from EV Experts who's joining us today.

How are you, Martin?

I'm good. I'm good.

Actually, really positive at the moment.

We had our biggest Saturday ever on Saturday.

Nice.

We thought that petrol prices rising would equal people buying electric cars.

Everyone's in panic mode, then, are they?

I wouldn't say...

Yeah, a little bit of panic mode.

But it's funny, we have done this in the past

where we've literally plotted our monthly sales

for the last eight years, and that sounds awful,

against unleaded, and it's £1.50 a litre.

As soon as unleaded goes above £1.50 a litre,

people just suddenly...

It's those that are, ooh, shall we, shall we?

And of course, it's not the actual numbers of the finances.

It's the fact that what was a 70-quid fill is now an 80-quid fill,

and that, oh, God, that's another tenner each time.

And it's just that psychological...

It's a psychological tipping point that we've seen.

But, yeah, good news so far.

But, again, that's the same problem, James.

We've now got more cars on a waiting prep

than we've got on...

in stock, so...

It's frustrating, isn't it?

I think you're a bit like us, like,

we really work hard on getting those adverts performing right from day one.

And we sort of cut some corners a couple of weeks back,

purely because we had to.

Advertising cars was just some pictures we took, you know, down the yard.

And it just felt so wrong.

And actually, the adverts don't perform as a result.

I do think it's worth putting the effort in at the start, isn't it?

Oh, God, yeah. I mean, I think...

What I tend to do is we do use awaiting prep ads,

which has no pictures,

but only when it's a particularly unique colour or a unique spec,

or it's a car that we think people will be really up for saving.

If it's one of our more mundane items,

like an ID3 or a Nero EV,

not that they're mundane cars, but, you know,

there are plenty of choices in the marketplace for those.

There's no point in putting one of those up as a waiting prep whatsoever,

because if you want a grey ID3, there are thousands out there,

whereas if it's something unique,

we tend to use a waiting prep for that.

We've been trying our hand at some electric cars.

I mean, the cheaper end of the market, you know, Nissan Leafs do very well for us.

So do E-Golfs.

You know, we find that they're quite popular.

You know, for those people listening to this podcast,

Mike, you specialise in electric cars, you have done for eight years.

What would you say to those people that are nervous?

Because you look at all the research that comes out,

and there's a lot of dealers that still say today

they'll never touch an electric car.

What would you say to them?

Well, have they got a Nokia or have they got a smartphone?

Yeah.

You know, I mean, it's as simple as that, really.

It's electric cars are not for everyone,

but in the same way that smartphones aren't for everyone,

but let's be clear, it's not just a niche.

And I think the thing is, is listen to...

If you ask a customer, and I've told this story many times,

do you ask a customer who had a Nokia, you know, a brick phone,

do they want a smartphone?

They'll tell you the battery doesn't last long enough.

They'll tell you it's too expensive.

They'll tell you it fits in the pocket.

I don't know anyone who's bought a smartphone

and then chucked it away afterwards.

You know, it's that analogy, really.

It is just a case of making sure that, you know, things change.

And, you know, we're retailers,

and we've got to sell what people want.

And actually, there is a lot of demand for well-priced used electric cars.

It's harder if they're new, but on the used market,

it's a strong demand.

Has it got easier for you over the last few years

in terms of, well, firstly, the conversation with customers

and secondly, the availability of stock?

I think the answer is yes to both of those but,

and the but is that the audience that we're selling to

is massively changing.

So 2017, when we launched,

average EV was 800 mile range.

They were at best a second or maybe a third car in the household.

They were innovators or early adopter type people.

You didn't have to show them how to pair their phone, you know,

and they'd probably done a lot of research onto it.

They didn't mess you about on price.

There wasn't a lot of competition.

And so that was a very different times.

Now we're early majority.

It's much harder because a lot of other dealers are doing it.

But the good news is that in our area, London,

Southeast, most people know somebody or know somebody

who knows somebody who's got an electric car.

So you're not pushing water uphill at all.

And then it's more down to the good old things

of how well you prep the cars, what brands you stock,

what brands you don't stock

and choosing the right colour combos and all that good stuff.

What sort of stuff works for you?

What's your bread and butter?

So we used to sell a lot of Zoe and a lot of Nissan Leaf.

We don't stock either of those in any big volumes.

We'll take it as a part exchange, but that's not there.

Mainly because little Zoe's anything less than 100 mile range

is just not worth having a conversation.

There is a market for them, but it's not a market we want to go after.

Nissan Leaf with its Chathamau charging,

you can't look someone in the eye and say that's a great product

if they ever want to do anything other than be used to charge at home.

Also the Nissan Leaf has an air-cooled battery,

which is not great for longevity where everything else is water-cooled.

So the batteries are more likely to be problematic on a Leaf.

So our big sellers, right now we're massive fans of the Volkswagen platform, MEV.

When you get an ID.3 under £20,000,

it's the same price as the equivalent petrol-auto Golf.

If you can charge at home and let's face it, 60% of Brits can,

or charge on your street or workplace, which then gets the number up to 80%,

it's a no-brainer.

I know you've had them, they're a great product.

And the reassurance of the Volkswagen brand at the front doesn't hurt at all.

The dealer network is pretty good, they look after their customers.

So we like that.

We also like the Skoda version, the Cooper version, the Ford Explorer.

We love those, they're really good.

Yeah, so that platform's good.

But I think the thing that really has happened is,

I hear customers say, oh, what's happening with all the Chinese cars?

Well, let's, you know, the Chinese are important, but more important are the Koreans.

We forget that, you know, 20 years ago, Kira and Hyundai were real niche players.

They are massive now.

And so the dealer networks, their products are really good, the reliability's there.

So, you know, if someone isn't what I'd call a driver and they just want the best,

I would say, Kira, Nero, EV, you know, you can't fault it.

It's what the gulf used to be, it's 8 out of 10 on everything.

And so, yeah, Kira and Volkswagen products and Hyundai are our core products.

What would you say, Martin, to dealers looking to dip their toe in the water then?

I mean, where would you say they start?

You know, is it like we've done with the really cheap stuff,

or should they go in and try something like an ID3 or something?

What would you do if you were starting again?

What would be the one you'd buy?

Well, I'd acknowledge the fact now that the market is,

it's the fastest selling fuel type on autotrader.

There are 1,000 EVs go through BCA every day.

You know, when we started, there were 10 going through each day,

so it made choosing your stock a bit easier.

So, I guess if I was saying to customer, I would get back to basics.

Who are your audience that you normally sell to?

If you sell Nissan cash guys by the bucket load,

then maybe a Hyundai Kona's the right thing.

But to what customers do you currently sell,

and then just find the electric equivalent,

I would recommend is the strategy rather than going at a particular price point.

There's a lot of dealers that are just scared of selling them,

because they think the bills are going to be massive when these cars go wrong.

I think we've published research in the past from some of the warranty companies

that sort of backs up some of those claims.

And I know that we had a conversation around that time.

You know, you didn't agree with those findings.

What's the reality? You've been running this for eight years.

What do you actually see?

Well, the reality is warranty, we were warranty wise,

and they tell us that of all their dealerships,

we are either the lowest or one of the lowest full stop on claims.

The amount I pay for warranties, I shouldn't say this

because Zach will be perfectly happy to get back on and put me prices back up.

That is low, because we just don't have the claims.

Now, the thing that matters with EVs is, you know,

it's still a car, so the door handle will go,

or the electric window will go, you know.

Yeah, that's running the mill.

But what you have to look at is battery, and there's two sides to batteries.

There's state of health of the battery,

and that basically shows how much the car's worn out.

And Avalu are, you know, they're one of the leaders,

but we use MOBA, we think they're really very good as well.

There's ClearWatt, there are different suppliers.

It's 40 euros a time to check a battery.

I think that's 40 euros well spent for giving a customer confidence.

However, battery health will just tell you how much worn out,

and you know that a battery should lose 2% per annum,

so for batteries at 3-year-old car, should be 94,

if the battery's at 97, happy days.

If the battery's at 83, not for me.

But then you've also got battery faults.

Now, battery faults are a bit like a cam belt.

You just don't know when they're going to go bang.

And the battery fault do happen,

and they're either the battery physically goes wrong,

or more likely is a manufacturer puts a safety recall out.

The big ones at the moment are, for example, the Volvo EX30.

You know, there are 30,000 units, I think,

that have got to be recalled to have three battery cells replaced.

And they've told all owners to only charge the car to 70%.

And that's a hard ask, because you know,

you bought the car because it did 230 miles

and you've been told to keep it at 70%.

So you want to just plug it in at night

and not think about it, not go...

Yeah, and there is a 0.0001% chance of it catching fire.

None has actually ever caught fire.

And exactly the same happened with the Kona about five years ago.

Mercedes have just about announced the EQA as well, EQA, EQB.

Rather sneakily, they put 240 through BCA

just before they announced the announcement.

Yeah.

Naughty.

But the point I would say about that

is most batteries are seven or eight year warranty.

So most cars that most people are going to sell,

that's not their problem.

They're not going to be facing the 10 grand fix for that car

unless it hasn't got full service history.

So I would say what matters,

full service history matters more an electric car

than it does on a petrol diesel.

The thing is, Martin, most of the ones we've bought

have not got full service history.

I mean, it's very, very unusual to see it

because most people who buy an electric car

have sort of read stories or heard from their mates

that, oh, we don't need to do anything to those.

They don't service anything anyway.

They just change the odd filter here and there.

Is it, it's probably more important

just to get the stamp in the book

rather than the actual work they do, is it?

Yes and no.

So there are things that you check.

So for example, if it's not had,

if it hasn't got full service history

and the battery goes wrong, you know,

supplying dealer, you are up for 10 grand

for a new battery pack,

whereas otherwise it's Volkswagen.

So that's the first thing.

Second is they do-do stuff.

When they check a battery,

they check the fact that the HV connectors are working.

That means that the battery is getting the right voltage.

They check across the battery for basically what you do

is you look across the battery,

make sure all the voltages on all the cells are balanced.

And if they're not balanced, that's a reason.

It might mean that the battery needs to be rebalanced,

which is a relatively easy procedure to do.

Or it might be that you've got an idle discharge

on one of the cells.

One of the cells is not working quite as it should do.

Well, that will lead to problems in the future.

And that cell is therefore more...

It's a clicking timing chain to put it in old speed.

But you can do that.

And all you need to do is...

Yeah, and so I think that the...

Because Tesla is the source of all knowledge, of course,

and Tesla originally didn't say to people to service their cars,

that rumor has got to the street,

but it's absolutely not true.

And the only cars we've ever sold have been full service.

And it means that we're more expensive.

It means our product is more expensive,

but it means that we just can sleep on.

Batteries are not going to have a problem.

So that's what would be my take on it.

Martin, you probably read all of the stories that we do

in the National Press all the time about electric cars.

I mean, they're rhetoric out there at the moment, isn't it?

It's not particularly positive, is it?

I mean, I'm sure there's some vested interest out there

without going into too much of a conspiracy theory.

But what's your take on the way that electric cars are perceived by the public?

So I think the problem is,

there is no great British public anymore.

You talk about many subjects,

and you know, it's, am I Remain or am I Brexit?

Am I left or right?

There's no middle ground on anything now.

And so for everyone who's owned an electric car,

driven electric car,

realized it's better for the environment,

better for their wallet,

and actually whisper it better to drive than a petrol car,

then there's somebody on the other side of the fence who's,

I'm not having one of them.

Oh, it's horrible.

Oh, it's Chinese.

I'm going to be snooping on me.

I mean, give it a break.

And they're prepared to tweet that obviously on their phone

that's made in the People's Republic of China and et cetera, et cetera,

through their Wi-Fi router that's made in the People's Republic of China.

So he's all about putting it in perspective, I think.

But I guess we get a lot of EV lovers on our full court.

We get the odd EV hater who comes here just to justify that they've looked

and that they don't want to buy because there isn't a car with seven seats

that can tow a three-ton caravan for seven and a half thousand pounds

like their old doctoral vectorist state.

When you're chatting to people mastering in the pub

and you tell them what you do, I mean, what's the general...

It's a bit like...

Yeah, no branded clothing ever outside the business.

No.

But what's the general consensus?

Are the inquisitive or are they...

I mean, just the reason I ask is most of the time

when I start talking about electric cars, most people go,

I've never had one of those.

But that might just be the people I'm talking to.

What's the sense you get?

I think that the sense is that the world is not black or white.

Electric car isn't for everyone.

But people talk to me about, oh, I missed the noise.

I missed the sense of occasion of a petrol car.

Well, my late sister was a big horse rider

and she used to drag me out on a Sunday morning for a hack.

And, oh, God, I hated it.

But anyway, yeah, but talk about that.

Horse on a Sunday morning, a lot of noise, a lot of acceleration,

really nice experience.

Bit like going out in a classic car, right?

Really, really good.

Try riding a horse on a Monday morning around the M25.

I don't think so.

And so, you know, it's about what is a means of transport

versus a lot of fun.

And, yeah, if you want to have fun,

yeah, petrol car or, you know, like that, that's great.

But reality of our lives these days are 20 zones, 30 zones, et cetera.

And it's cleaner, cheaper.

The Chinese brands, I know you mentioned that briefly,

but are you getting a lot of people coming in saying,

I'm looking at a used car with you,

but I'm also looking at a new Chinese model, which is XYZ.

Yeah, yeah.

And, I mean, I think, I mean, some of the deals are so good on new ones.

We've only ever had one BYD in stock as a used car,

because the problem is, as a used product, they're really impossible to sell,

because, you know, we had a dolphin in and it was like, you know,

it was a lovely little thing.

It's actually a really good product.

But, you know, 239 a month, 239 down.

How can you ever compete on that?

This is my worry.

This is my worry with these electric cars hitting the market.

I mean, how are we going to work them in the used car market?

And, you know, I started off at 22 grand.

I think I did it at 18 in the end.

But, you know, it only works if you have cash,

and if you're borrowing money, then it absolutely doesn't work.

No, I completely agree.

I think the old school habits of managing residual values,

that's a lesson that they can have to learn pretty damn quick.

Because it will be the customers that end up paying for it, right?

Because either the PCP company pays for it,

or, you know, you've got to get that used market going.

And, you know, all hats off to Kia, you know,

that seven year warranty is what built their used residuals.

You know, a Kia Nero EV with a seven year warranty is better,

is a higher price for the same age of miles as a VW ID3.

Yeah, I mean, I think it would be interesting to see what they've got to say.

We've got four of the Chinese brands on the stage at Cardiolive,

and I'm particularly interested to hear what their plans are about used cars.

I just wanted to ask you also about the sort of weird quirks

that you get with electric cars.

I mean, one of the things that I found is,

when we do get a problem with one, it's very hard,

I mean, I often call you, but it's very hard to get advice

from a normal mechanic because of their batteries.

I mean, we had this weird one with the e-golf that I've been talking to you about,

where it won't charge on a fast charger.

I had no idea what it was.

You suggested speaking to some experts down in Brighton,

and I spoke to them, but my mechanic had plugged into it

and found that the only code it was throwing up was that it didn't have any air congas in it.

And I spoke to your experts and they said,

well, if it hasn't got any air congas in it, it won't fast charge

because the car is worried it can't call the battery.

And I said, I would never, ever have put two together there.

But obviously, you know, you get the experience

and they have the experience of these weird little problems.

So, for example, Volkswagen ID3.

It's absolute, every ID3 that we sell, we regas

if it's of the age that needs a regassing,

i.e. three years old, and that stops all of that nonsense

because the battery is, you know, the whole point of it

is all these fast charging, when you're rapid charging a battery,

it needs to know that it can warm it up and keep it cool.

So, yeah, a simple regas and solve that problem, right?

Well, let's hope so. It's currently being regassed today, so we'll see.

We will see, but I've got everything crossed that is the problem.

But the other thing that's absolutely critical with EVs

is that the 12-volt battery is not...

You have to replace those.

Like on a Zoe, it's every three years

because they put a piddly little one in it,

and it's just not good and strong enough,

and the electronics are constantly talking to it,

so it just wears them out.

Yeah, we had that.

With the one that we run, didn't we?

Yeah, the problem that we had back there was exactly that, wasn't it?

Yeah, it still must be like the cheapest electric car going over Mars.

It's done. I love it.

It cost me £4 a week to charge it up.

I've got a slight problem, and I've got a customer coming in

for a test drive on an ID5 on Saturday,

and in 2018 I sold him a Zoe, and it's now done.

Oh, dear.

Yeah, exactly.

Where's the financial conversation going to go there?

It's a bit hard work. That's going to be a fun one, but...

Yeah, you just sort of have to blame someone else, don't you?

I'm sort of forcing the markets moved.

Fortunately, I haven't had to have those conversations with a returning customer.

No, I've had one where you have to give them a par-text price,

and it's like, it's awkward, isn't it?

It really is.

Well, Martin, thank you for joining us.

Very much appreciate your views on the market,

and thank you for sticking around for some stories,

but, Becca, we probably should do some.

We'll be right back.

Running a dealership means making hundreds of decisions every day,

but, James, when do you get the time to step back and think?

Well, John, I don't,

but this is exactly what Cardiola Live is for.

On March 19th, at the British Motor Museum in Gayden,

the UK's car dealers, manufacturers and suppliers

will come together to learn what's actually working right now.

You'll hear from dealers who've built great businesses,

and exclusive research from headline sponsors,

Auto Trader, as well as Google, Motorway,

Cox Automotive, Keyloop and Impale.

We'll be tackling the big questions like how buyers are really using AI,

what Chinese challenger brands mean for your forecourt,

and how the best dealers are growing faster than anyone else.

Hmm, maybe you'll actually learn something, James.

Bit rude, John, but you're probably right.

Cardiola Live is sponsored by Auto Trader

and takes place on March 19th at the British Motor Museum.

Tickets are available now at CardiolaLive.co.uk.

Now, a quick word from one of our sponsors.

Have you ever wondered why AI, along with 14,000 other dealers,

choose to partner with Auto Trader. Well actually, I didn't think so. I'll tell you anyway, with more

than 84 million consumer visits every month, it connects us with more engaged car buyers and

delivers more deals than anyone else in the UK. And now, with the launch of buying signals,

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they're interested in. Plus, as someone who set out to use AI and data as much as possible in

my business, I've found their technology, data and tools genuinely invaluable. But when I do get

stuck, which is, let's face it, most of the time, Auto Trader is always on hand and committed to

supporting us to get the very best from our package. To find out how they can help you,

visit trade.autotrader.co.uk. Now, back to the podcast.

Yeah, should I do a little explainer of how it's going to work?

So you've never listened before, James and I have both chosen our favorite stories that

have appeared on Cardiola this week, and we don't know what each other have chosen.

We're going to take it in turns to reveal our stories, have a little chat about each,

and at the end, Martin is going to be our judge and say who was the winner. And if you enjoyed

today's show, make sure you leave as a review wherever you are listening. James, would you

like to go first? Well, it was a draw last week. So yeah, I'm very happy to go first because

John's not here. So yeah, if you don't mind, I certainly will do. I'm a bit sure I can guess

what you're going to go for. But well, what is your guess I'm going to go for? Cardiola. No,

not Cardiola. No, I'm going to go with a story that I published earlier this week in a video

about scammers, use Cardiola scammers. So this is something that we've been looking into at Cardiola

magazine for. And coming up to four years now, these fake Cardiola ships are set up in a number

of different ways, but always slightly similar. What they do is effectively the scam is they set

up a fake website these days using AI as much as possible. They steal pictures from Cardiola's

of legitimate cars, they steal the advert, they post it on their website for a much cheaper

price, and then attempt to con people into that scam using social media sites like Facebook and

other other platforms, advertising these cars at really cheap prices. And consumers,

unfortunately, get hooked on them. And in our video, which we published on the YouTube channel

at the weekend, we showed how one of these these operations works. So we've been tipped off to

a cardiola called Doval Cars, which had a website, one of these sham websites set up. And in this

video, you can watch as we attempt to get scammed ourselves. We put an inquiry in very quickly,

they came back to us and said it was available and passed us on to a separate connected business,

which was also a fake called Ballinless Transport. This was something reasonably new that we'd seen.

We've seen it a couple of times in the past, but the way this one was operating was a little bit

different. It was a, it was more sophisticated than ones in the past. The website looked very,

very convincing. They'd even set up a network of forums pointing back to this main website

with reviews saying that they were legitimate. So if anybody went out there and started googling

this company, they might trip on one of these forums and see that this this business was,

well, supposedly legitimate, but it wasn't. So I actually spoke to the scammer on the phone.

You can hear that conversation in the video. He tried to con us out of £1,000, tried to convince us

that the only way to send it was via bank transfer. I asked him if we could use a credit card and he

said no, you're not allowed to do that. He said that you should be sending it via bank transfer

and it would go into what he called a segregated bank account, which is obviously nonsense.

He started talking about an £85,000 protection scheme that would cover us, which is again,

absolute nonsense. And in the end, we called him out. We called him out as a scammer and

he threatened to, he threatened to sue us as a result, which was reasonably ironic,

because then he was trying to sell a stock that he didn't even own that was on another

dealer's forecourt. But still, we've published that video. It's been very popular on our YouTube

channel and lots of people have read the story. And I just picked this one because I just think

in the motor trade needs to realise that these scammers are out there pretending to be us.

And actually, the more you shout about it, the more we shout about it as an industry,

the more we warn consumers that these people operate, the harder it is for these scammers to

operate because they are preying on our industry. And I think it's very, very important we shout

about them. It was just interesting just to see and experience how this business operated,

how the scammer, if you hear him on the phone, he sounds, well, he actually sounds like AI.

It was weird, isn't it? It was very, very strange. Couldn't really tell if it was AI or not.

And an interesting aside to the story is I'd used ChatGPT to look at all of the transcripts of all

of the interviews I did for this to help find the best bits. And in the end, my ChatGPT account

got banned because they actually thought that I was a scammer. So I had to put an application

here to ChatGPT. And I'm actually an investigative journalist. I'm looking into a scam and they

reinstated my access. But yeah, just, yeah, I picked that story because I think it's important,

Becca, that we shout about as an industry. I just bought Google, Doble cars, and now their website

still comes up. But then underneath it comes up with two pictures of your face saying they're a

scam. And then our story is this a fake dealer.

Does it?

These listings, yeah.

Well, that's something, isn't it? I mean, you've looked into these for a long time, haven't you,

as well?

Right, it's just the same things come up again and again. And when you were doing it, you said,

can you find me some more Facebook listings of people trying to sell these fake cars? And

within five minutes, I come back with 20 just from the advertising in Gosport.

It's scary how many listings there are on Facebook that are fake. Because without even

looking on, I know a lot of people say they're eBay and Gumtree and even someone, auto trader,

car gurus, all these sort of things. You've got to be really careful because they do slip through

the net because they pretend that they're real companies with real company's house and all this

sort of stuff. Some of them are fake dealerships where they're using real information. And then

you also find somewhere they are genuinely set up on company's house using someone else's address or

they've paid someone to accept the letter to their house and all this sort of stuff.

It's scary how easy it is to do it and make it look legitimate.

Well, I mean, it's an industrial scam, isn't it? I mean, it's done on an industrial scale.

It's international.

Yeah, I was going to say a lot, not even in this country.

They're not in this country. No. And actually, you speak to the authorities. I spoke to

Report Fraud for this investigation and they gave us some advice. You know, basically,

never send money to a car dealer where you haven't seen the car or met the car dealer.

But they were quite adamant that it's very, very hard to stop because as soon as the money's

been sent, as soon as that bank transfers left, it gets rooted out of those... I mean, this was a

Metro bank account, but it gets rooted to loads of different accounts all over the world and it's

gone. It's near enough impossible to track. Martin, have you seen this? Have you been aware of it?

I think it was 2017, 2018. All my ads suddenly appeared on Gumtree with a scammer on it back then.

It was one of those moments.

Support it at the time and they took it down, or was it?

It wasn't easy to get the ads down. And I did have one customer who claimed... Well, it's a

customer. Somebody had given somebody else some money for one of my cars and was threatening to

take the car off my full court type scenario. But you calm them down and politely say,

well, if it's on my website for 10 grand and you think you're going to buy it for five through

this other person, I think there is an element of... The public can help themselves. And it's that...

Car boot sale. This is super cheap sensation, which I do find is hard when people then make

big noise. I think there was... I read a story on the BBC about a guy who bought an EV6.

And it was a real... He was Welsh and he drove to West London and he bought it.

And I felt sorry for the guy until it said it was a GT Line S in Matt on a 23 pay and he paid

16 grand for it. Well, that's the 30 grand car. If you're buying a 16 grand car in cash from a

buying a pub 200 miles away from where you live, sorry, but...

Yeah, I think it's... I mean, it's connected to a whole bigger problem. I think that

people don't know how much people... Well, I think if you went up to people in the pub and said,

well, how much do you think? Because you use Cardinal, I bought this car for them. They'd go,

well, it must have been like half price sort of like any margin. And so built on that, I mean,

we've seen lots of scams where it's supposedly like police have seized these cars and they're

for sale. People find it so easy to believe that the police are just going to sell them for so

much cheaper than they were or like fire sales, all this kind of stuff. They just don't realise the

trade value of the cars and how little there is in it. So I think it's people find it easy to justify

that, oh, well, they must have bought it super cheap. So they're happy to sell it super cheap.

And it's just, I think it's probably an education piece, isn't it? Why should it be

our responsibility? But people just don't realise how much cars are worth. Yeah. I mean,

that getting the violins out and saying, you know, we're on this smaller margin.

But, you know, I've got, I've got a cut, he's not a customer. I've got a guy that's trying to buy a

Fiat 500 that I've got. It's on a great price at AutoTrader at $13,750. It's a trading that we took.

We can't be bothered to paint the bumper. So it's a bit, it's not as tidy as we would normally

sell a car. But it was a choice to just put it up. And he must have messaged me eight times on

three different platforms. Will you take 10? Will you take 11? Will you take 10? Will you take 11?

You're like, I gave them 13 grand for the car. I'm selling it for 750 quid more,

because I just want it in and out. No. And he's like, oh, well, electric cars are going down in

value. No, they're not. What will happen, Martin, is you'll sell that car tomorrow and it'll be the

best feeling in the world. You're selling it to someone else. That is always... Two test drives

on Saturday. I've already drafted the email in my head. There's nothing better. There's nothing

better. Right, let's part that one. Sorry. Becker, it's over to you. You'll go.

Oh, I don't know which one. I'm going to go for one that's come out this morning, which is about the

I know it's going to be an EV podcast. Oh, the SMMT. The uplasting EV sales targets,

branding them a fantasy, but the government rejects the early view.

You may have seen that they did this SMMT electrified conference yesterday at Westminster,

which I think... I mean, I haven't really seen anything else from it, but it does seem slightly

juxtaposed to be doing an electrified conference with big electrified branding at Westminster

and then go, this is ridiculous. We're never going to achieve it. That's exactly what I thought.

So bizarre. But they are obviously... My reading between the lines is they're obviously under a

manufacturer's who don't like these targets, and I'm sure dealers as well. But I'd love to know what

you guys think. Well, I think his comments were just... I mean, what Mike Hall said, I mean, I had

a good reader this morning and just... He was very angry about it, wasn't he? I mean, he's...

Like you say, he blasted them, these targets as a fantasy. And he just said some of the

things that he was saying, he said, where's this quote he says here? For the avoidance of any doubt,

this industry remains totally committed to net zero. That destination has not changed and will not

change. But sometimes to reach your destination, your sat-nav re-roots you. Sometimes a diversion

is necessary to avoid a roadblock. When the facts change, we change our minds, but not our goal.

He gave a long speech about this where he talks about it at length. The thing that I didn't realise

from this is that the government have scheduled a review of the mandate in 2027, early 2027.

So I think, obviously, that's not actually that too far away. I mean, it's kind of like,

it's a year away. They might be just trying to start their lobbying now to get that changed.

Martin, what's your take on all of this? I mean, one, no one's actually paid a fine yet for missing

these targets. The 2027 review, it's a check and balance of who's done well and who hasn't done

well and what's happening. I mean, I think I feel that there is demand there. A quarter of all EVs,

it's, if we can do it in the used market, do it professionally in the used market, I don't see why

the manufacturers. I think the problem you have here is that clearly some manufacturers are much

further advanced on their electrification and their product is better than others. And government

interference never works in a marketplace like this anyway. But yeah, it did feel like it was an

extreme view coming out. But it was also what I took out of it was, if I was a consumer and I was

on the cusp of buying an electric car, haven't they just shot themselves in the foot for every

consumer that reads that piece? The piece could have been written. We're so excited to have got

to 28%. But what we're looking for is help. Did it mention the 20% on charging? Now, I can tell you,

I hear that every week, people go, oh, it's someone fair charging 20%. If they'd have mentioned that,

if they'd have mentioned the fact that we've now at 90,000 public chargers, that story's gone. The

public charger infrastructure story is dead. There's too much infrastructure and the charge

won't operate. It's can't make enough money. So they haven't to reduce their prices.

Talk about that. Talk about the good stuff. You don't sell more of anything by blaming the

government. I just felt it was just the strangest comms coming out. It is weird. And I just, I find

that the, I mean, the government helps, I mean, in any way. I mean, it's like coming up with a

pence per mile charge, I think for EVs was absolutely bonkers. What's your take on that,

Martin? I mean, I think that must come up in conversations with your customers.

So I think two things on that. I think one, my customers, a good fortune of my customers was

bright enough to work it out that they were putting back the fuel escalator on petrol diesel

and that they wanted the press to pick up the pence per mile story, not that. So rather than the

headlines being fuel goes back up in September, it was all about pence per mile. So it was a

non-new story. And it's for the birds to think that the DVLA are going to implement all these

new technical systems by 2020. I mean, DVLA, God bless them. New technical systems being

implemented on time. And you're going to have then at that point, around 10% of the car park in the

UK is going to be electric. I think I'm right in saying it's around 10%. It's a reasonable

percentage. And it's an election year and you're then going to tax those 10% people. Again,

for the birds, the way it does. I think the pence per mile, I think that story was rubbish.

But again, it was a calm thing. The government could do so much more for this with really simple

little tweaks. And I think it feels to me as if there is a little bit of anti-car

nests coming from the government. And they can't differentiate between car and electric car.

It doesn't feel thought through. Yeah. I mean, the other one, Becca, that came out of this one that

I thought was interesting was there was comments also from Martin Sander, who's the Volkswagen's

head of sales. And he said during that conference, the price of petrol and diesel cars is going to

have to rise in order to meet the target set out for EVs. He said basically that they can't

continue incentivising electric vehicles to the level that they are without getting that money

back elsewhere. Because that's what they're having to do to sell these cars. I mean, I thought that

was interesting. I haven't heard that before. Now, I think that's the thing that ultimately,

petrol diesel cars are just going to get more and more expensive to make.

Euro seven is going to cost everyone a small fortune. It's uneconomic to make anything small,

anything sub, small cars just can't be petrol diesel anymore. So I just think that the market

will shift. I mean, Mike is right, the timings can change and things will change. But I think it's

about direction of travel. And again, that press release could have been, I think that was a very

inward-facing press release, if that makes sense. It was to locate members rather than to actually

have an informed debate, which is EVs are really good. Britain's got the highest penetration of

the bigger countries in Europe. And how successful have we been? And why can't we just do more of

that rather than? Yeah, let me roll this into a slightly connected story, because I'm just

interested in your comments on this one. Because Reform UK this week have pledged to ditch the

electric car grant and scrap the 2030 ban if they win the next election, depending on which polls

you read. They're either ahead or quite a little bit or quite a lot. So Nigel Farage had held a

bit of a stunt at a petrol station, which I thought was one of the things I read about this is they

tried to make it the cheapest fuel, 25 pence off, cheapest fuel in the country, they said.

And then I think one of the newspapers looked into it and 10 miles down the road, you could get

cheaper fuel, which shows you the sort of amount of research that went into this stud.

But I've long thought what their plans would be about the electric car, not the electric car

grant, about the 2030 ban in particular. Because Nigel Farage follows what Trump does, doesn't he?

And it doesn't sort of sit with their party's policy. So it wasn't a surprise that they would

ban the 2030 ban and get rid of it. But what do you think it means? Because it sort of throws

the industry into a bit more chaos, doesn't it? Because if they do get in, then all of this work

that we're doing now, all this stuff that we're talking about is pointless. Well, I think for me,

I think more people, the way the British political system is, is there's always more

people that vote for another party than the vote for the winning party. So, you know, first

pass the post doesn't mean that if they get in, I bet you 60% of people won't have voted for them.

So that's the 60% of the market that are happy. I think if you tell the British public to do

something, they normally do the opposite. So for example, when the Pence per mile came out on the

budget, we had a really busy week the following week. And I think people could just, and you know,

people look at it go, oh, yeah, that's like 3 p.m. all 10,000 miles a year, that's 300 quid,

well tax on my diesel cars 600 quid already. So yeah, I think that I think the message will come

across. And and ultimately, the manufacturers aren't going to be able to change the product mix.

And that's that those are those are global continental decisions that just won't get

shifted by, I mean, without putting Britain down, we're just, we are one little bit of Europe

when it comes to the car market. And, you know, you can't you're not going to start up production

of a petrol car production line just to feed UK as an example, it's just it's just not going to

happen. So no, I'm not, I'm more worried about his other policies about getting into any politics

than I would be worried about his EV policies. Do you think the we should be letting the British

public, you know, the carbine public make up their own minds what they buy? I mean, you know,

you've made some very solid arguments in this podcast about why electric cars are right for

people, you know, and I just think we drift away from the the sales pitch for electric cars into

into into a push into a push into electric cars. Do you think people would naturally gravitate

towards them if we talked up the fact that they are cheaper to run, that they are better for the

environment and and stopped all this this this this 2030 ban talk and just let the market decide.

I completely agree. And, you know, I actually would love for the ban to not happen at all,

because it's causing more chaos than they're not.

Let people go online, you know, but I mean, we sell a lot of Polestar twos and Polestar two

performance. I don't know if you guys have driven, yes, but right, you get in that, you got to be

as a committee petrolhead, you get out of it. And what do you say? You're flipping a good bit of kit,

right? And and at £23,000 for a model, you know, one of those, a 330 is going to cost you more

money just for the car, let alone the running costs. And it can go head to head with with

something fast like that. So I think, yeah, absolutely, let customers decide. And I think,

actually, the market will will will find itself. I think one of the biggest shocks of the EVs is

just people, I hear it every day, oh, I wasn't expecting it to be this good. Oh, isn't it quick?

Isn't it quiet? Oh, this is nice. And you're like,

it's just a car that's a bit quicker than probably what you got doesn't make that

horrible noise costs you a bit less to run. And you don't have to pay too much to service it.

Well, let's, I mean, who's goes it now, because I sort of wedged the story there. Is it yours or

mine? Yeah, I think it's mine. But I'm going to talk about what has I think has to be mentioned

because we have covered it so much this week, which is Peter Waddell's. Thank you.

Court case. So much has happened. I think, oh, God, what am I actually going to say?

It's been quite interesting this week. Obviously, I was doing my little disclaimer,

same thing that John said last week that this is an ongoing trial in the High Court.

We can't pass lots of comment on what we actually think about it. But

it's been interesting what's come out this week. I'll say there's been some bits about,

I mean, it's been very much from Peter Waddell's lawyers side this week, Alan. So was so whereas

previously we've seen a lot of fresh stream stuff and it's maybe made Peter look not so good.

This week, there's been a lot of interesting stuff coming out about the way that the

investigation was done into Peter and sort of things that was going on with Lawrence Vaughan

getting paid by fresh stream and being paid by a big motoring world, which is it's all been lots

of interesting stuff coming out. Quite some interesting stuff about the business. Well,

I thought was quite interesting about the fact that the trust pilot reviews actually went down

after Peter left and that they didn't have the cash flow to buy stock in a lot of 2024 or as

much stock as they needed. But generally sort of looking outside of what's going on in the court,

I think it's I don't know if it's making the industry look particularly good is what I was

thinking. I was writing this story yesterday and one of the things that I can't remember his first

name, but Mr. Cartwright from Freshstream was saying that he was really worried about the

reputation and it getting out in the Daily Mail. And that's one of the reasons why they

really didn't want all this stuff coming out. And I thought, well, this has been an interesting

way to go at it then, hasn't it? I know they've not had a lot of choice because Peter, Peter

filed the case first. Yeah. But yeah, on one level, I think it's quite interesting because

I don't think from an industry perspective, going back 10 years, motoring world seemed like the

biggest business in the world. We obviously knew they did very well, but they I think they were

one or two sites at the time. But to see all this stuff coming out now about the at the level of

investment, the level of like how senior these people were, I mean, I'm not saying that Peter

Bordell has not done a good job with this business, but it's definitely put it on centre stage, the

sort of scale of this business and the level of money and investment that's going on in what is

fundamentally a used car business and not even one of the biggest used car supermarkets in,

I'm sure Peter would disagree with me on that as well. But yeah, it's interesting, I think,

to look at it from the outside. I think, I mean, the industry is hooked on this. I mean, it's,

I was from my sub stack today, I did a little bit of a roundup of the four stories were published

from from the High Court this week, as you've summarised there, lots, lots going on as that

case continues. But I get lots of messages from people who say that, like, when's the next story

coming out? Oh, loads, you know, loads. I was sent a picture yesterday of a group of dealers who

were together having lunch. And they basically, some of the caption was, when's the next Peter

Bordell story coming out? There's lots of people that are clearly talking about it. It's captured

the industry because they want to know what's going on. It's a soap opera and all of this dirty

laundry. It feels like it could go either way at the moment. Well, yeah, I mean, and all of this

dirty laundry is being aired in public in the High Court. So it's, you know, it's fascinating,

lots of claims from both sides. We've got a reporter in court again today, who will be filing

back some some stories today. So this is Friday morning. So by the time this comes out, there'll

probably be even more to even more to catch up on. But, you know, it's very, you know, we obviously

can't comment on it because that case is continuing. But all of those stories are on the website that

people can go and take a look at. Well, I just think like, I mean, as a, you know, as a dealer

bartender, it's kind of, it's an interesting one to watch, isn't it? Because it's so unusual to see.

And, and it is, I think it's that private equity approach to running a business where

a car dealer is not a normal business. It's not, it's not corporate. And, you know,

Stun and I both come from corporate backgrounds. And, and, and you're not however big you are

in the car business, you are not a corporate business. It's, it's a trading business. It's a

retail business. It's, it's horrible. It's fast. It's quick. It's, it's not corporate. And you

try running it corporately. And as we're, as we're hearing every day, it doesn't work that way.

I think the, we've got a big motion world up at Cambly, that's not a million miles away from

us. And, and I do get customers who've been there. And, and I do hear how that operation is run.

And it's certainly not for every customer. That's for sure. I think, and,

you know, dare I say it, the big, the daily mail expose a story is probably going to come

very, very big for that, for that brand. It's, you know, it can't, it can't,

it can't be good for the brand. That's for sure.

No, I mean, it's, yeah, it's certainly been an interesting one, which we have been following

very carefully. And we're obviously giving them the right reply. If they ever want to come onto

the, onto the podcast, they're very, very welcome. That would be one I'd definitely listen to because

I think they'll be back in the day Dallas, wouldn't it? You know, it's that sort of,

it's, I can't see a character. I can't see it happening. But the, but the offers out there,

anybody from big motor world listening, if you want to come on, give me a shout.

Let me just wedge one more in as we approach the end of the podcast. And I just want to talk about

car giant. So this is another really big used car supermarket. They're based in London

on a huge near 50 acre site in West London. And sadly, this week, we got news that they'd entered

into a period of consultation with their staff with a threat of redundancy. Now the talk on the

grapevine is that they want to find a buyer for that business by the end of April for either the

business or the land. Now, I mean, the story behind the picture here really is that the land that

they're based on is worth a lot of money. It's gone up and down in their accounts over the years.

But the last accounts, it was valued at 98.8 million pounds. They did sell a chunk of it,

didn't they? A few? I think, but not yet. I mean, they've still got a very, very large

chunk of land. And they are based, the reason it is worth so much is because it's in primary

real estate in West London. It's in part Royal Oldo common area, right on the doorstep of a planned

HS2 interchange. Right by the train as well, isn't it? Yes. I mean, that is going to be a major hub

they're planning there that's going to connect that HS2 line with the Elizabeth line and other

transport links. So it's clearly worth a lot of money as a piece of land. The thing is,

carjine is a very successful business. I mean, if you look at our last car dealer top 100,

it made a lot of money. It was 22nd in the list of most profitable dealers in the UK.

It had clocked up EBITDA of I think around 23 million pounds, because obviously we strip out

the exceptional cost like that revaluation of the land. But actually, when you put that land in

into the figures that year, it made 121 million pounds profit. So, you know, it's a very, very

successful business, been operating for a long time. But if you look at them, you look at their

website, which I did this morning, I mean, this is a business that I've seen have well over 2000

cars in stock this morning has 385. So it says a lot, doesn't it? It says a lot. I think from

I think one of the other issues that this comes up is just it's just margin erosion, right? You

know, car giant worked when we had proper margins in cars. But yeah, we get actually a lot of

traffic from people in London, because I feel really sorry for any car dealer based inside the M25.

Your costs are just, yeah, I mean, Surrey is not exactly the cheapest place to do anything.

But compared to inside the M25, it must be, yeah, you know, it's just all of your labor costs,

your transport costs and all the stress of it. It's not a, if you were to put a big car supermarket,

I don't think you'd choose part Royal ever, would you? No, no. But they say, don't they,

that the value in used car businesses or most most car retail businesses is in the property,

it is in the land. And I mean, you know, that is an incredible piece of value, nearly 100 million

pounds. I mean, I mean, Geoffrey Warren, who owns that business, he's a billionaire, he's on the

Sunday Times Rich List, 70% of the Sunday Times Rich List. But, you know, clearly 100 million is

enough to move the dial even for a billionaire, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I must say,

I did, I did go to the company, I did ask for comment, they told me no final decisions have

been made. They recognise this is an uncertain time for their staff, and said that while the

consultation process is ongoing, it would be inappropriate to comment further. So, you know,

we'll be following that one very closely. Do you want to hear my prediction? Go on. I reckon

that they will sell the land for the land. But I also reckon we will see someone buy that car

giant brand similar to the Motors Cazoo deal, because I reckon the actual brand is so big.

And I'm sure their web footprint and things like that have a huge amount of value,

that we will see someone either buy it and build another car giant somewhere else in the country,

or just use it for two as a source of traffic, say like a car guru's piston heads, car giant kind

of type or something like that. Interesting. You heard it here first. Well done. Oh, that's

an interesting idea. I will want my commission. We're pretty much done now, aren't we? I think

that's our stories complete. Yeah, smart. And what do you think? Who had the best stories?

Well, that was going to be a difficult one, wasn't it? I'm not going to go the obvious anything

that's to do with EVs, because that's just too obvious. The big motor and world one. I mean,

I'm sorry, but it's just, I think what's great about it is it by washing their laundry in public,

we all have the same, every car dealership has these these these issues, right? And challenges.

But thankfully, we're not in the high court having to explain it, you know, in front of our

letter of highly paid lawyers. And I just feel that the yeah, that that's why it's appealing to me.

But I also just think we just, I just worry about what what it says to the car buying public

about our industry, you know, and and I think it's just I think it's it's important for us as

car dealers to say we're not all like that. And I don't mean that in a derogatory way to big motor

and world because they've been probably successful. But, you know, the the having a moral compass

and some backbone on how you deal with people and both employees and I think it's really important.

And that's what makes successful ones, right? You know, it's people ultimately buy a car from

a person or a brand, but it's really a person. And that's a brand that's in all over the place.

And clearly, people all over the place say that's why it gets my vote.

Well, thank you very much. I think it's also a little nice little reminder every time you

do think, shall we get a bit bigger? I mean, unfortunately, I don't think my little square of

base point gospel million. It might be worth 100 pounds, but maybe 100 million.

Well, you heard it here first, if anyone's interested in buying it, can be bought for 100

pounds, valued live on the party podcast.

Well, thank you very much, Martin. Well, thank you for having us. It's been good fun as forever.

Really appreciate it. Nice to see you, Martin. Thanks for joining us. And thanks for all your

advice on the electric cars that I buy and sometimes go wrong. Thank you as well for coming

today. And thank you to everyone who's listened. If you enjoyed today's show, don't forget to

hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you are listening and give us a little review

if you've enjoyed it. And we will see you. Well, I won't see you next week.

Jump all the way back to tell you all about the seals, I'm sure. And we will be giving you a

roundup of what's happened at CardioLive. We will. Tickets still available at CardioLive.co.uk.

SMMT blasts EV sales targets, Big Motoring World court case continues, and what's going on at Cargiant? – with Martin Miller, episode 247

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